Us Greeks hold no honor to our past.

[Aristotelian]

Hey guys,

In the last 2 years that i have become so involved with Greek history, i have noticed a sick pattern of us Greeks harming and standing in our own way of glory.Is it just me or has Greece only realy done harm to herself instead of outsiders? I believe the 2 great contributers to the state that Greece is in today are Internal wars and Religion.

Religion to me is the main cause that we have totaly become detached from Philosophy, Science, Astronomy, Maths, and the ancient Religion which held all holy not just those who embrase it.I believe Christianity and Muslim beliefs has restricted the whole world from actualy moving forward.
You ask what does all this have to do with Macedonia?
Well for one, the orthodox priest abolished the Olympic games.They executed many Greeks to embrace christianity, , or nature, or the belief of the truth and then we had the muslims on top of that kicken our ass because we simply no longer faught for humanity freedom, or our holy land! We just fought for Christianity.

What about all our brothers that fought for PEACE.For LAND.For our future.

No disrespect to kolokotronis and thanasis thiakos, they are heros just as mush as Leonidas and Alexander...it comes down to one thing , we Greeks hav a bad habit of forgeting who we were, so if your fight is fo we are now please tell me, and il remove myslef from thsi forum aswell.

Like i said, i want philosophy, Astronomy, Science to be brought back to the mother land, and move forward.Theres no point just remembering Alexander and Aristotle if we arent going to actualy step back, think of there goals, and start taking steps forward all together.Why does religion alwaysneed to get in the way?We alraedy have our Jesus Christ, Socrates! He died for having his own beliefs, only because he questioned the nature of how things work.
Why must outsiders honor our past more than we do?
Why have we just become a flag that represents nothing that is HELLENIC......

[akritas]

To seeking your historical roots in a society that suffer from en-employ and a stress what will be done tommorow is something that happen in an every West society and not only in the Greece.
The people of Greece I think intresting very much as about theirs heritage.The best proove of this is how grouth the development inthe book selling. I buy books since late 80s.Today the historiography is much better and also much richer regarding the Greek heritage.

I am against in your thesis as about the Christian or Muslim religions. Is not bad the religions but the people that try to transmit the religion. If you read the Muslim religion is very close in the Christian. The Othodox Religion was the shield of the Greekness when the half of the known world was under the Ottoman ocuppation, and also was the level that push away the Turks from the Greece. This is the reason that today , the Turks are against in the presence of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Constantinople. They afraid it.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Well the way I see it... if religion is an inner spiritual experience, that leads you to your personal unification with God (whatever God and however you comprehend Him), there is very little that you can obtain in this 'journey' by reading books, studying sects, talking to priests or by generally following a specific path other than your own...
The real 'journey' IS spiritual, it IS inner, it IS inspirational, based on love and everyone understands this experience quite differently than the other does, but then again dispite their intense efforts to do so, some may simply never understand it at all.....


So your preference in religion, either judeo-Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, "Paganism"...etc. or whatever way anyone believes his journey is best represented, IS your personal choice and not something neither open to discussion nor critisism.

While judeo-Christianity undoubtably has its share of guilt in the distruction of what was Hellas.. Lets not forget that it was the people, the Hellines that chose to adopt this religion. Our forefathers were those that chose to change their ways.(of course with a little 'push' from the early Christians)
While it is a fact that Paul was mocked upon when he entered Athens and spoke of Jesus, Christianity and the unknown God, this was not the case neither in Corinth nor Thessaloniki.

Now while they made the mistake to confuse knowledge with religion (uneducated sheep are far easier to drive) this is not the case today nor should we do the same mistake they did.
Really why confuse the two notions ???
Can't your personal preference of religion co-exist with obtaining or even promoting the knowledge given to us by our ancestors ???

I know that mine can..

I know there are efforts, unfortunately even by our own so-called professors to distort or even destruct any connection we have to that knowledge. But we really don't have to fall in their 'trap', do we?
Its up to us to ignore the attempted distortion of our heritage, part of which is our language and instead cherish and promote it.
A good example would be to start your fight against all those like Mpampiniotis that choose to write the word "dean" = πρυτανις with an etta instead of iotta, distorting the word and totally ignoring what grammar clearly indicates..(plural form πρυτανεις)..
Rub that in your professors face and dare him not to 'ace' your paper, based on the alleged spelling mistake..



As for Kolokotronis and Diakos (please use Caps when writting their names next time) or any other of the Hellines that faught for our freedom. You can be sure that they faught first for their country, history and ancestral lands, and then for anything else.
Lets not forget that it was they, our ancestors of the 1800's that stopped the siege of the Akropolis and gave the Turks ammo when they saw them tearing down the ancient columns of the Parthenon to extract the lead..

[Amarantos]

..I know there are efforts, unfortunately even by our own so-called professors to distort or even destruct any connection we have to that knowledge...
Its up to us to ignore the attempted distortion of our heritage, part of which is our language and instead cherish and promote it.


This is a very important question(that of the language)to my point of view and i agree with you Orphic_Hymn.I have to say that i remain fascinated when reading a text by Sartzetakis for example,and i'm extremely unhappy by the way the people of my age express themselves.I do not consider the whole issue as a question of δημοτικη and καθαρευουσα by now,but of the first two in the same camp from one hand and the "greeklish" on the other.
It's "funny" listening to my contemporaries or younger people that find difficulties in expressing themselves and yet can reproduce pouliopoulos theories perfectly.Sometimes i recall Kissinger's words on how to attack the Greek identity,and i can explain this and some (false-)progressive proposals regarding this issue.(see Diamantopoulou)

As far as christianity is concerned.I believe that when the moment came,it replaced a world that was arriving in an end,in a way.I see it more like a natural process.The same thing happened and continues to happen in comparison to christianity too,in our days,with the development of the sciences.Although i'm not a very religious person i have great respect to the Church for various reasons one of which is the role it played for the survival of the Greek Nation during the turkish occupation.The same offer one notices nowdays in regard with the Macedonian question.I believe it is the great influence of the Church to the people that the progressives i was talking about are afraid of.And in the end i like seeing all the people coming together at twelve o'clock at Easter,independently of political beliefs,social background etc.It's all part of our customs,our traditions and it's something other people or countries at least in western world to my experience,do not have.
The key to all is education.I believe that the Greeks are provided by some kind of force,god or what ever you like,with the right raw materials.Education can make them flourish.Moreover nowdays that knowledge can be in the hands of everyone.

[zefs]

Im sorry but you are not looking at things from a historic mind state. Firstly, if it was not for the Greeks and the fall of Constantinople in 1453 there would not be an Italian Renaissance and Europe would not be a leader in the 19th and 20th centuries. Secondly.,even during our dark ages we had influential people like El Greco and others. We a nation of so few have contributed in the 21st century. Kazantzakis, Dr.Papanikoplou, Seferis and many others.

[Tsontos]

1821 had alot to do with Christianity, though it was also based on more modern ideas of nationalism which were tied up with language, culture, ethnicity rather than just common faith. To say that they, and many Byzantines for that matter, fought only for their faith is historically incorrect. We expected many Vlachs to rise up for the Greek state because of their allegiance to the Greek church but they did not.


As what I wrote about Kolokotronis in the other thread:

Every time I read one of Kolokotronis speeches, I become deeply moved...I am all for remebering and honoring our ancient heroes, but i thing in many respects he outdoes them all. He fought all his life for the Dream, on his helmet the word "ithe" (it may be) and it finally was. All that without for wxample the great ego of alexander, just humble like miltiades. For what he offered with his life and death we should be honouring him more...

one of his speeches:


Παιδιά μου!
Εις τον τόπο τούτο, οπού εγώ πατώ σήμερα, επατούσαν και εδημηγορούσαν τον παλαιό καιρό άνδρες σοφοί, και άνδρες με τους οποίους δεν είμαι άξιος να συγκριθώ και ούτε να φθάσω τα ίχνη των. Εγώ επιθυμούσα να σας ιδώ, παιδιά μου, εις την μεγάλη δόξα των προπατόρων μας, και έρχομαι να σας ειπώ, όσα εις τον καιρό του αγώνος και προ αυτού και ύστερα απ' αυτόν ο ίδιος επαρατήρησα, και απ' αυτά να κάμωμε συμπερασμούς και δια την μέλλουσαν ευτυχίαν σας, μολονότι ο Θεός μόνος ηξεύρει τα μέλλοντα. Και δια τους παλαιούς Έλληνας, οποίας γνώσεις είχαν και ποία δόξα και τιμήν έχαιραν κοντά εις τα άλλα έθνη του καιρού των, οποίους ήρωας, στρατηγούς, πολιτικούς είχαν, δια ταύτα σας λέγουν καθ' ημέραν οι διδάσκαλοί σας και οι πεπαιδευμένοι μας. Εγώ δεν είμαι αρκετός. Σας λέγω μόνον πως ήταν σοφοί, και από εδώ επήραν και εδανείσθησαν τα άλλα έθνη την σοφίαν των.



Εις τον τόπον, τον οποίον κατοικούμε, εκατοικούσαν οι παλαιοί Έλληνες, από τους οποίους και ημείς καταγόμεθα και ελάβαμε το όνομα τούτο. Αυτοί διέφεραν από ημάς εις την θρησκείαν, διότι επροσκυνούσαν τες πέτρες και τα ξύλα. Αφού ύστερα ήλθε στον κόσμο ο Χριστός, οι λαοί όλοι επίστευσαν εις το Ευαγγέλιό του, και έπαυσαν να λατρεύουν τα είδωλα. Δεν επήρε μαζί του ούτε σοφούς ούτε προκομμένους, αλλ' απλούς ανθρώπους, χωρικούς καί ψαράδες, και με τη βοήθεια του Αγίου Πνεύματος έμαθαν όλες τες γλώσσες του κόσμου, οι οποίοι, μολονότι όπου και αν έβρισκαν εναντιότητες και οι βασιλείς και οι τύραννοι τους κατέτρεχαν, δεν ημπόρεσε κανένας να τους κάμη τίποτα. Αυτοί εστερέωσαν την πίστιν.



Οι παλαιοί Έλληνες, οι πρόγονοί μας, έπεσαν εις την διχόνοια και ετρώγονταν μεταξύ τους, και έτσι έλαβαν καιρό πρώτα οι Ρωμαίοι, έπειτα άλλοι βάρβαροι καί τους υπόταξαν. Ύστερα ήλθαν οι Μουσουλμάνοι και έκαμαν ό,τι ημπορούσαν, δια να αλλάξη ο λαός την πίστιν του. Έκοψαν γλώσσες εις πολλούς ανθρώπους, αλλ' εστάθη αδύνατο να το κατορθώσουν. Τον ένα έκοπταν, ο άλλος το σταυρό του έκαμε. Σαν είδε τούτο ο σουλτάνος, διόρισε ένα βιτσερέ [αντιβασιλέα], έναν πατριάρχη, καί του έδωσε την εξουσία της εκκλησίας. Αυτός και ο λοιπός κλήρος έκαμαν ό,τι τους έλεγε ο σουλτάνος. Ύστερον έγιναν οι κοτζαμπάσηδες [προεστοί] εις όλα τα μέρη. Η τρίτη τάξη, οι έμποροι και οι προκομμένοι, το καλύτερο μέρος των πολιτών, μην υποφέρνοντες τον ζυγό έφευγαν, και οι γραμματισμένοι επήραν και έφευγαν από την Ελλάδα, την πατρίδα των, και έτσι ο λαός, όστις στερημένος από τα μέσα της προκοπής, εκατήντησεν εις αθλίαν κατάσταση, και αυτή αύξαινε κάθε ήμερα χειρότερα• διότι, αν ευρίσκετο μεταξύ του λαού κανείς με ολίγην μάθηση, τον ελάμβανε ο κλήρος, όστις έχαιρε προνόμια, ή εσύρετο από τον έμπορο της Ευρώπης ως βοηθός του ή εγίνετο γραμματικός του προεστού. Και μερικοί μην υποφέροντες την τυραννίαν του Τούρκου και βλέποντας τες δόξες και τες ηδονές οπού ανελάμβαναν αυτοί, άφηναν την πίστη τους και εγίνοντο Μουσουλμάνοι. Καί τοιουτοτρόπως κάθε ήμερα ο λαός ελίγνευε καί επτώχαινε.



Εις αυτήν την δυστυχισμένη κατάσταση μερικοί από τους φυγάδες γραμματισμένους εμετάφραζαν και έστελναν εις την Ελλάδα βιβλία, και εις αυτούς πρέπει να χρωστούμε ευγνωμοσύνη, διότι ευθύς οπού κανένας άνθρωπος από το λαό εμάνθανε τα κοινά γράμματα, εδιάβαζεν αυτά τα βιβλία και έβλεπε ποίους είχαμε προγόνους, τι έκαμεν ο Θεμιστοκλής, ο Αριστείδης και άλλοι πολλοί παλαιοί μας, και εβλέπαμε και εις ποίαν κατάσταση ευρισκόμεθα τότε. Όθεν μας ήλθεν εις το νου να τους μιμηθούμε και να γίνουμε ευτυχέστεροι. Και έτσι έγινε και επροόδευσεν η Εταιρεία.



Όταν αποφασίσαμε να κάμωμε την Επανάσταση, δεν εσυλλογισθήκαμε ούτε πόσοι είμεθα ούτε πως δεν έχομε άρματα ούτε ότι οι Τούρκοι εβαστούσαν τα κάστρα και τας πόλεις ούτε κανένας φρόνιμος μας είπε «πού πάτε εδώ να πολεμήσετε με σιταροκάραβα βατσέλα», αλλά ως μία βροχή έπεσε εις όλους μας η επιθυμία της ελευθερίας μας, και όλοι, και ο κλήρος μας και οι προεστοί και οι καπεταναίοι και οι πεπαιδευμένοι και οι έμποροι, μικροί και μεγάλοι, όλοι εσυμφωνήσαμε εις αυτό το σκοπό και εκάμαμε την Επανάσταση.



Εις τον πρώτο χρόνο της Επαναστάσεως είχαμε μεγάλη ομόνοια και όλοι ετρέχαμε σύμφωνοι. Ο ένας επήγεν εις τον πόλεμο, ο αδελφός του έφερνε ξύλα, η γυναίκα του εζύμωνε, το παιδί του εκουβαλούσε ψωμί και μπαρουτόβολα εις το στρατόπεδον και εάν αυτή η ομόνοια εβαστούσε ακόμη δύο χρόνους, ηθέλαμε κυριεύσει και την Θεσσαλία και την Μακεδονία, και ίσως εφθάναμε και έως την Κωνσταντινούπολη. Τόσον τρομάξαμε τους Τούρκους, οπού άκουγαν Έλληνα και έφευγαν χίλια μίλια μακρά. Εκατόν Έλληνες έβαζαν πέντε χιλιάδες εμπρός, και ένα καράβι μιαν άρμάδα...



Εγώ, παιδιά μου, κατά κακή μου τύχη, εξ αιτίας των περιστάσεων, έμεινα αγράμματος και δια τούτο σας ζητώ συγχώρηση, διότι δεν ομιλώ καθώς οι δάσκαλοι σας. Σας είπα όσα ο ίδιος είδα, ήκουσα και εγνώρισα, δια να ωφεληθήτε από τα απερασμένα και από τα κακά αποτελέσματα της διχονοίας, την οποίαν να αποστρέφεσθε, και να έχετε ομόνοια. Εμάς μη μας τηράτε πλέον. Το έργο μας και ο καιρός μας επέρασε. Και αι ημέραι της γενεάς, η οποία σας άνοιξε το δρόμο, θέλουν μετ' ολίγον περάσει. Την ημέρα της ζωής μας θέλει διαδεχθή η νύκτα του θανάτου μας, καθώς την ημέραν των Αγίων Ασωμάτων θέλει διαδεχθή η νύκτα και η αυριανή ήμερα. Εις εσάς μένει να ισάσετε και να στολίσετε τον τόπο, οπού ημείς ελευθερώσαμε• και, δια να γίνη τούτο, πρέπει να έχετε ως θεμέλια της πολιτείας την ομόνοια, την θρησκεία, την καλλιέργεια του Θρόνου και την φρόνιμον ελευθερία.



Τελειώνω το λόγο μου.
Ζήτω ο Βασιλεύς μας! Ζήτω οι σοφοί διδάσκαλοι! Ζήτω η Ελληνική Νεολαία!

[Orphic_Hymn]

This is a very important question(that of the language)to my point of view and i agree with you Orphic_Hymn.I have to say that i remain fascinated when reading a text by Sartzetakis for example,and i'm extremely unhappy by the way the people of my age express themselves.I do not consider the whole issue as a question of δημοτικη and καθαρευουσα by now,but of the first two in the same camp from one hand and the "greeklish" on the other.
It's "funny" listening to my contemporaries or younger people that find difficulties in expressing themselves and yet can reproduce pouliopoulos theories perfectly.Sometimes i recall Kissinger's words on how to attack the Greek identity,and i can explain this and some (false-)progressive proposals regarding this issue.(see Diamantopoulou)


I see your point exactly. I can honestly say that dispite my efforts to do otherwise, I find that I too fall under the category of 'greeklish'. Truelly disappointing to even think of it, but I guess we all do.

Of course this isn't new and while the Kissinger quote does exist, the attempted destruction of our language has begun since the 1500's with the Erasmic theory.
(of course others presented it before he did but he's the most well known)
When a language that has lasted for over 3000yrs is struck on its very foundation, the later that evolved from it will eventually fall, which is what we are seeing today.

But this is the logical consequence of multiculturalism and having english as the international language of commerse.

I find it quite similar to what took place during Alexander's empire when all conquered lands, learnt Hellinic and adopted Hellinic customs. Or during renaissance when the so-called 'civilized' west first encountered the magnificent Hellinic anthology and adopted several thousand words from it.

Of course multiculturalism is the stage prior to the end of all cultures and Diamantopoulou and the likes of her, may or may not understand it, but that's what they're leading us to..



PS: Taki, great quote..:clapping:
You get goose-bumps just by reading it...