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kostas68
05-01-2008, 03:39 PM
One of the bigest Scopian lies is that in Macedonia before the population exchange of 1922 and the settlement of the refugees from Pontos,Asia Minor and Eastern Thrace,the Greek language wasn't spoken almost by no one of the inhabitants.Off course we know that it's a shameless lie,like many other of the Scopians,because in Macedonia the Greek language exists since the Macedonians exist and never stopped being spoken by them,from the time of the mythical first king Karanos.Therefore i decided to start a contribution about the Macedonian dialects of Greek language and particularly for the dialect that is spoken in my region.I hope that many other Macedonians from other regions will do the same and we will acquire a representative sample of every local dialect spoken by the indigenous Hellenophones Greeks from the whole of Macedonia.
My homeland is the region of the so-called Darnakohoria in Serres.These
villages(Emmanouil Papas,Agio Pnevma,Pentapoli,Hryso and Neo Souli)are called by the other Serreans <Darnakohoria> and their inhabitants <Darnakes>.The origin of this word is unknown and there have been given by local historians and scholars various etymologies,as this word originates from the ancient tribe of Derrones that lived once at this area.Personally,the most cogent seems to me this one,that the word <darnakas> originates from the turkish <dernek>,which means <reveler>,<mery maker>,something that's according to the character of the <Darnakes> and their habit to feast and amuse themselves often.The only sure is that <Darnakes> have a common origin,culture,traditions,dialect and their region was one of the bastions of Hellenism in Eastern Macedonia during the era of Ottoman rule and they paid for this many times with rivers of blood.
The dialect of Darnakes is called <darnakika> and at first we can classify it in the northern Greek dialects.As we know,the modern Greek dialects (all descending from the koine Attice except the Tsakonian) are classified in two main categories,the northern and the southern dialects and the boundaries between them are in Sterea Ellada-Peloponnesus,Sporades-Cyclades islands and Lesbos-Chios,with some small exceptions.
The darnakika dialect has the same morphology with the other northern and Macedonian dialects and the same vocabulary with them to a big degree,but what makes this dialect remarkably distinguished from them is the use of some words from Greek origin which don't exist in any other Greek dialect.Some of them are archaic or have ancient origin.
The first scholar who tried to collect and catalogue words of darnakika and other Macedonian dialects was the Hellenist Ioannis Pantazidis(his origin was from Crousovo in today's FYROM) in 1862,publisher of the Athenian monthly literature newspaper <Filistor>.But let's see some of those words :
αραγωγή and αραγός=a furrow that existed in the courts of the older houses where the dirty waters were droped.(derives clearly from the verb άγω=lead,drive,root of αγωγή).
αλ(ι)πανάβατος=awkward (from the privative α- + λίπος=tallow +άνω=over+βατός=approachable).
ανήγατος=something that wasn't used too much and metaphorical,someone without appetite.It derives from the ancient νηγάτεος.Pantazidis expressed his suprise for <this good homeric word that was used by the poor women of Serres.>
άλας=salt.This is the archaic form of αλάτι in standard modern Greek(koini neoelliniki).
αναγκαίο=toilet,WC.(from ανάγκη=need)
αγρομερνός=rustic,<caveman>,
(with offensive meaning.From αγρός=farm + μέρος= place
αλαγκίδα=a kind of pancake.(From ancient λαλάγκη)
απόσκιεμα=a sunless place.(From από=from + σκιά=shadow)
απολογιέμαι=answer,instead apologize which is the meaning of this word in standard Greek)
αποδέρνω=to provoke the fall of something.(From από+δέρνω=beat,hit)
άπραγος=somebody with bad behaviour,shameless.(From primitive α+πράττω=do,make.)
αρμιά and αρμούδα with the diminutive -ούδα.Α kind of meal that was made by water,salt,winegard and garlic.(From αλμυρός=salty.)
βασταγαριά=A kind of forked wooden cane,used to support the burden in the one side of a mule or donkey when the other was downloaded.(From the verb βαστώ)
βάζει=It makes a noise,it sounds.(From ancient βάζω=speak,say and metaphorical make noise)
βάξιμο=Noice,sound and metaphorical=rumor.From ancient βάξις that has the same root with βάζει.We use to say,when we are geting angry with somebody:αν σου δώσω μια στο μάγουλο,ξέρεις πως θα βάξει?(If i hit you on your cheek,do you know how it will sounds?).In Sophocles' <Oedipus tyrranus> Oedipus says:..εγώ δε μη φέρων τήνδε βάξιν...(...but me,not enduring this rumor...)
βότρυδα=the inject moth.(From ancient βρώτις<ευρώτις<ευρώς=humidity,
fungus.)
βούτυρος=butter.In darnakika is used this word in his archaic masculine form <ο βούτυρος> instead the neutral <το βούτυρο>.
γανιάζω=geting angry(From ancient γάνυμαι=brighten,polish)
γόφος=haunch.This word in darnakika has maintened the ancient accent of the penult whereas in standard modern Greek the accent is on ultima.(Ancient =γόμφος,modern=γοφός.)
γνώμη=This word has the meaning of cleverness,inteligence whereas in all the other Greek dialects it means oppinion,view.
γκρέμνος=Again a word which maintened its archaic form with ν whereas it lacks in standard modern Greek.(Ancient =κρημνός,modern=γκρεμός)
γωνιέμαι=hurry(From ancient αγωνιώ=be in agony.)
δαμάλι=the female calf(From ancient δάμαλις=little cow).
διρμόνι=a kind of lether sieve.(From δέρμα=lether).
διλάβι=a tool that was used to remove the carbons,woods and ashes of fire(standard modern Greek=μασιά).From δύο=two and λαβή=grip.
διαβασιά=a kind of rope that was around the neck of horses,mules and donkeys.(From διαβαίνω=go across.)
ζευγάρι=This word except the literal meaning(=pair) has the metaphorical meaning of tilth,because the farmers used a pair of oxen.
ζευγαρίζω=plough.The same literal meaning with the word above.
επι τ' αυτού=deliberately.It's strange that such a <scholar> utterance has been maintened by a <peasant> dialect.
θαμάζομαι=wonder.(From θαυμάζω=admire)
θαρρώ=think,believe,consider.(From ancient θαρρώ=be brave)
θέκω=dibble.(From ancient έθεκα,simple past of τίθημι=put,set.
θηλύκι=button.(From θηλυκό=female.)
θηλυκώνω=button(verb,the same etymology with the above).
θύρα=door,from ancient θύρα.My grandparents used always this word instead πόρτα(of italian origin) in standard Greek.
κατσάγνο=chin.(From κάτω=under+σαγόνι=chap.)
κενώνω=serve a meal.(From κενό=empty,because the caldron is emptied by this action.)
λείξουρος=someone who wants to eat delicious foods.(From ancient λείχω=lick).
λημόρια=cemetery.(From ancient μνήμα=grave,μνήμα>μνημόρια.)
λιμάζω=hunger.(verb,from ancient λιμός=famine)
λιχούδι=little child.(From the same root with λείξουρος).
μάκος=From ancient μήκων = poppy.Μάκος was a boiled liquid made by poppies which was given to the babies when they cried to make them sleep.
μανίζω=geting anger.(From ancient μήνις=anger.)
μουλώνω=keep silent.(From ancient μυλλώ=closing the lips.)
μπουζνάρα=pocket.(From υπό=under+ζώνη=belt)
κανάπ=cord,string.(From ancient κάνναβις=cannabis,because it was made by the peel of this plant.)
κηδεύω=Again a word with two meanings:The literal,which in all the Greek dialects is <bury a dead>,but in darnakika its also used and metaphorically and means <save,keep something>.The homonym verb in ancient Greek had the meaning of <be concerned of something>.Thus,we can conclude that this ancient meaning has been maintained in darnakika.
κορφιάτης=the upper point,the top of the house's roof.(From κορυφή=top.)
κρατούνα=a derisive,snide term for head.Its counterpart in standard Greek is <κεφάλα>=big head.It derives from ancient κράτα=head(same origin with κρανίο,κρατώ,κράτος e.t.c).We will find again in Sophocles' <Oedipus tyrranus> Oedipus saying : <νυν το κακόν ήλατο ες κράταν εκείνου>(now the evil fell on his head).
κρατνάς=someone with big head and metaphorical idiot,stupid.From the same root with the above.
κρούω=hit,strike.(From ancient κρούω with the same meaning).
κνήθω=scrape,scratch.(From ancient κνήθω with the same meaning.)
νησκάδα=hunger(noun.From νηστικός=hungry.)
νίβω=wash.(From ancient νίπτω with the same meaning.)
νιρουφιέμαι=snif my snot.(From αναρροφώ=absorb,suck.)
νίσκωμα=ghoast.(From ίσκιος=shadow.)
ξάκριστος=large,capacious.(From primitive ξε+άκρη=edge.)
ξαπείκαστος=unimaginable,unexpected,sudden.(Fr om ξε+ancient <εικασία>= presumption.)
ξαποβγάζω=counterbalance a lost by gaining something.(From ξε+από=from+βγάζω=take out.
ξελακίζω=drive out animals by bawls.(From ξε+ancient υλακή=bark)
ξεναχώνω=dig up.(From ξε+χώνω=bury,put inside.)
ξεπιστάθκα=rest,lay off(simple past).(From ξε+πίσω=behind+στάθηκα=stood.)
ξεποζώσταρος=blowzy.(literal=someone with untied belt,from ξε+από=from+ζώστηκα=i tightened my belt.)
ξεπονήγλουτος=shameless,metaphorical.(From ξε+από+ονή=a rope that kept tight the saddle on the donkey's back,ancient γλουτός=buttock.)
ξεροχασμίζομαι=gape.(From ξε+χάσμα=gap+the ending -ίζομαι.)
ξεστάζω=become thin,loose weight by hard work,suffer.(From ξε+στάζω=fall in drops.)
ξεστοχώ=forget.(From ξε+στόχος=aim,target.)
ξετινάζομαι=grow up.(From ξε+τινάζομαι=be shaked,bounced.)
όρνιθα=hen.(From ancient όρνις=bird.)
ορίζω=command,order someone to do something(verbs.From the ancient homonymous verb with the same meaning.)
παραμαζώνω=rebuke,reprimand,lecture.(Verbs.Fro m παρά=by,at+μαζώνω=collect.)
παραμάζωμα=reprimand,rebuke(nouns.From the same root with the above.)
παραβλώ=I am bored,lazy.(From παρά+βουλώ<ancient βούλομαι=want.)
παραβούλια=the act of being bored,laziness.Same root with the above.
παραβλιάρς=Someone who is bored,lazy.Same root with the above.
παραστολιάζω=waiting near someone.(From παρά+στύλος=post,baluster.)
παραυτίδα=temple.(the part of the head between the eye and the ear.From παρα+αυτί=ear+the ending -ιδα.)
πλόχειρο=palm.(From ancient απλόω=lenghten something+χειρ=hand.)
πνάκ(ι)=dish.(From ancient πινάκιον.Remember the biblical story,when Jacob bought his brother's hereditary rights<αντί πινακίου φακής>.(For a dish of lentils.)
πράμα=livestock,usually cows,donkeys and mules.Metaphorical it means someone who hasn't good behaviour or idiot,stupid.(From πράγμα=thing.)
προμηθεύω=advise.In standard modern Greek it means <cater>< and in ancient <learn before>.
προσαψίδια=firelighter.(From προς=to,for,άψω=i will light up fire and the ending -ίδι)
προσόψι=towel.(From προς+ancient όψις=face.)
προσφώλι=an egg that was left in the coop,in order to attract the hens.
πυροστιά=a tripod that was collocated on the fire and was used for cooking.(From ancient πυρ=fire+ancient ίστημι=stand.)
πυρολατίζω=i'm getting hot.(From πυρ+ancient ελαύνω=walk,come,going)
σάλιακας=snail.In standerd Greek it's σαλιγκάρι,but in darnakika it has maintained an archaic form,closer to the ancient σάλιαξ.
σφαλώ=close.(From ασφαλίζω=secure,protect.)
ρουμνίδα=dead end.(From ancient ρύμη=street.)
ρωγαλίδα=a kind of spider.(From ancient ρωξ=kind of spider.)
σταλαχίδα=distress.(According to I.Pantazidis,from ancient σαλάσσω=stream.)
σταλαχίζομαι=repine.(From the same root with the above.)
τανύζω=stretch.(From the ancient homonymous verb with the same meaning.)
τράφος=ditch.(From ancient τάφρος with the same meaning.
τώντι=indeed,really.(From ancient τω όντι with the same meaning.)
φορέματα=clothes.From φορώ=wear.It's used instead ρούχα in standard Greek.
φτίνα=a pot used for saving olives.(From ancient βυτίνα=large pot.It's the root from βυτίο
χρεία=toilet,WC.(from ancient χρεία=need)
ψιακή=poison(noun).From ancient ψίαξ=drop.
ψιακώνω=poison(verb).
As for the phonological changes,this dialect accords to the most northern dialects.When the syllables with ε and ο haven't accent,they turn to ι and ου:νερό=νιρό,παίζουμε=παίζουμι,πάγος=πάγους,ομάδα= ουμάδα.
Many times a vowel between two consonants disappears:γυναίκα=γναίκα,φυλάχτηκα=φλάχκα,σκυλί=σ κλι.
When the ultima has ι or η without accent,it disappears:
μαξιλάρι=μαξιλάρ,κρεβάτι=κριβάτ,τόπι=τόπ,Τετάρτη=Τ ιτάρτ,γνώμη=γνώμ,σπουργίτης=σπουργίτς,Γρηγόρης=Γρη γόρς,μανάβης=μανάβς.
When the last consonant is κ,λ,ν,σ,ζ,χ,γ,the vowel ι or η doesn't disappear totally but it sounds insensibly:χεράκι=χιράκ(ι),γουρούνι=γρούν(ι),πόλη= πόλ(η),Μιχάλης=Μιχάλ(η)ς,Αντώνης=Αντών(η)ς,e.t .c.
We have sometimes and consonants that disappear,in the verbs ending in -σεις,-ζεις:πιάσεις=πιάεις,δώσεις=δώεις,βρίζεις=βρίεις,πα ίζεις=παίεις.
Another phenomenon is the accent on the syllable before the antepenult.This happens only in the verbs ending in -με:χάσαμε=έχασαμι,παίζαμε=έπιζαμι,κερδίσαμε=κέρδισ αμι.
The verbs that in standard Greek are ending in -μουν here are ending in -μαν:
καθόμουν=κάθουμαν,φοβόμουν=φουβούμαν,λυπόμουν=λυπο ύμαν.
Remarkable is also the imperative ending in -ους:
γραφτούς instead γράψου,θμηθούς instead θυμήσου,φυλαχτούς instead φυλάξου and sometimes in -ουν:κοιμούν instead κοιμήσου,σλουγιούν instead συλλογίσου.
The diminutive surfix is -ούδης,-ούδα,-ούδι,deriving from ancient -ίδης,-ίς,-ίδιον : πιδούδ(little child),τραπιζούδ(little table),καρικλούδα(little chair),ντουματούδα(little tomato).The masculine surfix -ούδης is used only in surnames : Γρηγορούδης,Αντωνούδης,Ευαγγελούδης e.t.c.
Off course there are many other forgotten words of this dialect that i don't know or i can't remember now.Only the olders knew them,but they are dying and with them are dying and those words.The new generations don't know and don't speak almost no one of the words of this list and even they who know are ashamed to speak a <peasant> dialect.
Today this dialect is being extinguished,under the pressure of social changes that occured in the last 30-40 years in Greece.The urbanization with the consequent abandon of the rural areas,the demographic changes,the <mixed marriages>,the diffusion of education are some of the causes. In Greek society are prevailing stereotypes that characterize whoever speak such dialects as <peasant> and it's a pity that this is the reason that <condemned to death> a dialect which uses words with Greek origin instead the foreign words of koini neoelliniki(standard modern Greek).

akritas
05-01-2008, 05:15 PM
Thread moving in the linguistics Forum.!!!!

Andrew
05-01-2008, 05:30 PM
Great work Kostas ...you finally did it ..the work of modern Macedonian dialects of Greek language ..Bravo :clap2::clap2: !!

I'll start searching my regional dialect and soon I'll try to give some info. Until then I'll make a prologue:

I come from the Roumlouki region (Ρουμλούκι) which is the north-eastern part of the Emathia plain.About the stupid Skop propaganda you say I know that at least since Kosmas the Aetolian visited our village back in the 1700s(then Γιδοχώρι , village of the Goats , and strangely very close to the ancient cities Aegae (16 Km) and Aeginion (8 Km) , Αιξ/Αιγός meaning Goat in ancient greek as the word γίδα does in modern Greek) we were hellenophons as ALL the maps of the demographic history of macedonia in wikipedia evidence. Even the maps of the Serbian and Bulgarian propaganda considered my region hellenophon.We are most known for our traditional female costume with it's headband named "το κατσούλι του Γιδά" or the "κατσούλα του Γιδά" as Penelope Delta refers to this headband. Every expert recognises in it the ancient Macedonian helmet. The local myth says that Alexander the Great offered it to the women after one battle in which they fought with the men.Personaly I believe that the real version of the Story is that the women were wearing it to look like soldiers meanwhile working in the camps and the men were away in campains. To sostain that , studing the "History of Macedonia" by Hammond in Vol II in the "the language of the ancient Macedonians" i nthe word "mimallones" (which I translate as μίμες άλλων) there is the note number 132 or 131 I'm not sure were it quotes a piece of Polyaenus where he says that sometime in king Argaeus' realm 1000 Illyrian Soldiers have retreated after confusing a bunch of mimallones as soldiers .In plus , in the Iliad I've found many times the term λιπαροκρήδεμνος (woman with aglitter headband). So I give also the photo of this "katsouli":

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2303/61969460ck3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2303/61969460ck3.b75b188f89

Roumlouki's western limit is the old stream of the river Haliacmon that formed the southern part of "The Swamp" and united with Ludias forming the lake as Herodotus says in 7.127 . The northern limit is formed by the river Ludias and what was the south coast of the Lake of Giannitsa. The name Roumlouki was given by the Turk conquerers meaning in turkish "place of the Greeks" (Rum luk).There about 40 villages with the biggest one Gidas (now days Alexandreia , my hometown). The dialect is called Roumloukiotika and the local inhabitans Roumloukiotes.
From the little I know our dialects are similar
We also use "skli,pli,groyn" instead of skyli , poyli , goyroyni.
and "ποδ,ποδάρ , μαξιλάρ" instead of πόδι,ποδάρι,μαξιλάρι.
When a dog streches&elevates it's ears we say "άρτσωσε τ΄αυτιά" (probably from ancient greek αίρω/άρω meaning elevating).
Penelopi Delta in her "Secrets of the Swamp" quots some frases of my region's dialect like "εχ παλκάρια το Νσσί" instead of "έχει παλικάρια το Νησί (χωριό) etc.
In Eastern we have a local traditional food . We don't roast the lamp or goat but we put it fractioned with rize , green onions , other stuff in the traditional oven and close the entrance with mad . This food is called "bitzivisi" , local pronounce "bitzvis".
A thing that gained my attension was the following . Here in Ferrara in Italy were I study we are three guys from Roumlouki.Common friends from Volos and Athens once told me that we three "Roumloukiotes" use the frase "όχι αμάν και τί" instead of "όχι αμάν και πως" as they do in Volos and Athens. Studing the Odyssey , strangely I found out that Homer uses "τι" in (V605,6):
ἐν δ' Ἰθάκῃ οὔτ' ἂρ δρόμοι εὐρέες [I][U]οὔτε τι λειμών·
αἰγίβοτος, καὶ μᾶλλον ἐπήρατος ἱπποβότοιο.

"Στην Ιθάκη δεν έχει ούτε μεγάλους δρόμους ούτε αμάν και τί λιβάδια. Θα προτιμούσα πολύ περισσότερο να είμαι αιγίβοτος παρά αλογοτρόφος" , όπως θα έλεγε κάποιος από τα μέρη μου.
A similar frase is the term for "why not" ..."σάματς τί" .We even loaned it to some Italian friends of ours and now when they are with us instead of the Italian "perchè no" they say "samats ti" ..LOL :clap2: !!
Another strange old word of my region is "τουρκανάκατος" (mixed with Turk ,greek ανακατέβω meaning mixing) when the rest of the Greeks prefer the term "τουρκόσπορος" (turkish spore).
Another strange thing is that the 90% at least of the "Roumloukiotes" surnames ends in -poulos. The old ones when are refering to a woman they cut the -poulos end add -ouda (examples Μοσχοπούλου becames Μοσχούδα , Μαυροπούλου becames Μαυρούδα).In the males they cut the poulos without adding anything (example Χατζόπουλος becames Χατζής) and if we have a children the old ones refere to it by adding -ουδι withour cutting the poulos (example a Κυρόπουλος child is called Κυροπουλούδι or in the dialect "Κυροπλούδδ" .The ending -ούδι/ούδα is interresting because it derives from the ancient Greek ending -ώδης a variant of -ειδής/-ίδης. Similar "ου" transformations we have in the Greek words μεταλλούχος (έχειν μέταλλον , containing metal) , χειρούργος ( surgeon , χεῖρᾳ εργεῖ , operating with the hand etc). Even more interesting is the fact that in the ancient macedonian dialect we have a conservation of "ου" and "αυ" here the other Greeks entered the letter "ω" (example ancient Macedonian σαυτωρία instead of attic σωτηρία) ,since we know that omega was a later letter of the Greek alphabet (φάος>>φως , θέα ορώ>>θεωρώ etc) and it substituted a combination of "o" with another vocal. So I think that the
-ούδα/-ούδι are seriusly variations of the formal greek ending -ώδης (example ζωώδης , animal like , ομιχλώδης , like fogg).
Another frase is "είσαι θκός μας ή απ΄αυνούς ?" (είσαι δικός μας ή από αυτούς (τους άλλους) , are you one of ours or one of them ?)
Παένω/Παένς instead of πηγαίνω (Ι'm going)/πηγαίνεις (you're going)
ζουνάρ (heard more like ζναρ) intead of ζωνάρι (little belt , greek ζώνη=belt and note again "ου" instead of "ω").
τα΄ρνίθια (τα ορνίθια , the chickens , from ancient greek όρνις/όρνιθας=bird).
πλαλάω (αιωρούμαι , to hover) ancient Greek Πλανήτης (planet).
Another interesting thing is the female personal names. We tend to make them end in ω. For example my great grandmothers were named Δάφνη (Daphne) and Ελισάβετ (Elisabeth) and my grand mothers are named Αμυγδαλιά and Σοφία . Σοφία remains as it is but the others my grandfathers call them Δάφνω , Λισάβω/Τσάβω , Μύγδω . Is it pure lack or is there any relation with the fact that many ancient female greek names ended in ω (example Ηρώ , Μυρτώ , Γοργώ , Ενυώ etc).The name Ελένη was called Λένια and the female ending -η trasnforming to -α reminds the ancient Macedonian names Αντιγόνα ,Ευρυδίκα , Αμαδίκα instead of attic Αντιγόνη , Ευρυδίκη , Αμαδίκη.

And since I'm talking of my great grandmothers , who none of them went to a school . The one from my fathers side when cought someone being naif/abstract used to say "νους βλέπ νους ακούει" (it is the mind that sees and the mind that hears) years later studing philosophy I found out a similar phrase by the Greek Philosopher Epikharmus (dorian from Sicily) saying:
"νοῦς ὁρᾖ και νοῦς ἀκούει" and my great grand mother from my mother's side to say to my mother when she was a child that it was bad to retain the urina for a long time she was saying "μή σπαργώνετε !" (don't retain it ! , from ancient greek σπάργω=retain , for example σπάργωσις/spargosis is the biological term that defines the cellular lysis by osmotical retension of water.

chicagogeorge
05-25-2008, 02:05 PM
As I have been surfing the Makedonskian websites, a familiar theme that is repeated over and over again, is that modern Greeks and the Greek language have little connection to the ancients. I decided to review some books on the Greek language and it's continuity over thousands of years. Here is one excerpt

Medieval and Modern Greek by Robert Browning - 1983
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/1086/medievalandmoderngreekes6.jpg

and another.....

The Modern Greek Language in Its Relation to Ancient Greek - Page 20
by Edmund Martin Geldart - Greek language, Modern - 1870

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1373/moderngreekpronounciatimj4.jpg

Notice, Geldart was writting this in 1870... Surpise surpirse! The Greek language alive and well in Macedonia (with noted Doric affiliations).

Andrew
05-25-2008, 02:47 PM
Thank you very much Chicago George !!!

About the "u" ancient sound I'd like to add that in the oral tradition the sound remained in some words ....
Take for example the ancient river in my region Loydias.

Herodotus wrights "Ludias" , and today we wright "Loudias". Yet if someone knows that ancient "u" was pronounced as modern "ou" does then you see the oral "continiuty" between "Ludias" and "Loudias".

kzk842
05-25-2008, 03:24 PM
Στην Κοζάνη επίσης χρησιμοποιούμε την λέξη μακεδονήσι που σημαίνει μαιντανός, σε λεξικό του Κοζανίτικου ιδιώματος βρήκα οτι αυτό λέγεται επείδη υπάρχει ένας μύθος ότι οι αρχαίοι Μακεδόνες έτρωγαν μαϊντανό πριν τη μάχη για να τονωθούν..

Andrew
09-09-2008, 06:09 AM
It is widely accepted that the ancients pronounced β,γ,δ as the english b,g,d and not as they are pronounced in modern greek , that is v,jj,th ("the").

The northern modern greek dialects pronounce the word βαμβάκι [vamvaki] ας μπαμπάκι [babaki] and that is definately a remnant from antiquity.Plus the word κόμβος (node) is pronounced in the dialects as κόμπος and this is another proof of the "old B" sound.
Plus , most Greeks say Αντρέας and δέντρο intead Ανδρἐας and δένδρον and that is a proof of the survival of the "old δ sound" as "d".

Plus another word that I have listen only in my region (roumlouki, Emathian plain) is "πραγανίζω το ψωμί" instead of "φρυγανίζω το ψωμί" (toast the bread). Now I need to search it more , but so far I've noticed two peculiarities of the ancient macedonian dialect surviving in this form:

Let me remind you that Plutarch said that "the Macedonians used "B" instead of "Ph" , meanwhile the Locrians used "b" intead of "p" ". And that all the Northern Greek dialects (North Western and Aeolic) have maintained the "long a"

So if we take the ancient root of the verb φρυγανίζω ...φρύγω and we change the φ with b and the u with a we have

φρύγω >> βράγω , that is in modern greek phonology: μπράγω/πράγω >> πράγω >> πραγανίζω intead φρυγανίζω.

kostas68
09-09-2008, 08:00 AM
Thank you very much Chicago George !!!

About the "u" ancient sound I'd like to add that in the oral tradition the sound remained in some words ....
Take for example the ancient river in my region Loydias.

Herodotus wrights "Ludias" , and today we wright "Loudias". Yet if someone knows that ancient "u" was pronounced as modern "ou" does then you see the oral "continiuty" between "Ludias" and "Loudias".
Well come back Andrea!
We can see the ancient pronunciation of υ as ou in the words κουτί which derives from the ancient κυτίον and φτερούγα from ancient πτέρυξ/πτέρυγα.I've heard also some Thracians saying τρούπα instead τρύπα.In my village and in the neighboring as well,we have the female name Κρυστάλλω but we pronunce it Χρουστάλλω.We have also the surname Κρυστάλλης which becomes Χρουστάλ'ς.I think the change of Κ to Χ has something to do with the δασεία/aspirate that was once in the letter ρ when it was the first letter of a word,although in that case it isn't the first.

Andrew
09-09-2008, 08:27 AM
Well come back Andrea!
We can see the ancient pronunciation of υ as ou in the words κουτί which derives from the ancient κυτίον and φτερούγα from ancient πτέρυξ/πτέρυγα.I've heard also some Thracians saying τρούπα instead τρύπα.In my village and in the neighboring as well,we have the female name Κρυστάλλω but we pronunce it Χρουστάλλω.We have also the surname Κρυστάλλης which becomes Χρουστάλ'ς.I think the change of Κ to Χ has something to do with the δασεία/aspirate that was once in the letter ρ when it was the first letter of a word,although in that case it isn't the first.

Hello "Kotsinio" of the Penserraikara !!!!!

Yes you're wright !! on the "u"="ou" in ancient times ...may I add the dialectic form of the word γύφτος as γιούφτος , now I read in the HoG that the ancients pronounced the word κῦμα as κιούμα and in Boetian inscriptions of late antiquity we have the words τιούχα and θιουγάτηρ instead the kanonical τύχη,θυγάτηρ. C. Brixhe adds that the Boetians have tried to change the orthography in Hellenistic period in order to sound like the Classic ones.

About the κ,χ,γ sounds interestingly x was pronounced as an aspirated κ , that is kh , so you're wright again the two letters are interchangable.

Interestingly , the Mycenaeans in the Linear B used the same graphem for the phonems [b=β,p=π,ph=φ] and the same for the series [k=κ,kh=χ,γ] , but had different graphems for δ[d] and t[τ]=θ[th].

I just posted some linguistic stuff here a few minutes ago:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/linguistics-forum/8263-history-greek-language-edited-f-christides.html

kostas68
09-09-2008, 09:26 AM
Yes you're wright !! on the "u"="ou" in ancient times ...may I add the dialectic form of the word γύφτος as γιούφτος

Ο γιούφτος,η γιούφτσα,το γιουφτούδ.

Andrew
09-09-2008, 10:57 AM
Ο γιούφτος,η γιούφτσα,το γιουφτούδ.

I always thought that the real identiry of a population stands on it's "uncouth" dialects !!! Standard modern Greek is something that everybody in the greek soil can learn from school ...but the local dialect of a place ..that is the form of Greek that is oraly transfered for centuries is our true identity ..and sadly..he are loosing those presius linguistic forms ..the modern local dialects of greek.

Take for instance the thessalian "provincial" word for όχι "no" ...ουόχ ..Τhe initial ou- is a remnant of the digamma that once existed at the beginning of the word ούκι (Fούκι , like Fάναξ and Fοίνος). The digamma was pronounced like the "w" in the "weather". In fact the english word weather is related to the greek αιθήρ (Fαιθήρ ???).

kzk842
09-09-2008, 11:46 AM
In Kozani we use:
The verb αμπώνω and άμπωγμα = push that comes out of the ancient αμπωτίζω that means back up.
The word κανίσ' which is the gift that is given in a pannier(marriages),the ancient word for pannier is κανίσκιον.
The word λυχτώ = scream that come from the ancient υλακτέω.
The word πχιαλώ or πλιαλώ(at Aiani villages) = run from the ancient πιλαλώ

zefs
09-09-2008, 02:50 PM
It's all Greek to me!!!!!

kostas68
09-09-2008, 05:13 PM
In Kozani we use:
The verb αμπώνω and άμπωγμα = push that comes out of the ancient αμπωτίζω that means back up.
We have the word αμπλώχνω=dibble,bore,penetrate
The word πχιαλώ or πλιαλώ(at Aiani villages) = run from the ancient πιλαλώ
We also use the verb πλαλώ.We have a proverb with this:Πλαλείτι πουδαράκια μ' μη σας γ........ ντ' μάνα.