Greek occupation of South Albania.(NYT 1913 article)

[TirAlb]

American schools seiyed bz Greeks (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=2&res=9802E0D7123FE633A25750C2A96F9C946296D6CF&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)


http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5215/fest19gk6.jpg

[Tsontos]

It certainly wasnt "South Albania" at the time dude. It was Turkey.

[TirAlb]

It certainly wasnt "South Albania" at the time dude. It was Turkey.

timeline:

Albanian declaration of independence: 28 november 1912(edited)

Treaty of London:was signed on 30 may 1913

NYT article:23 september 1913.

[olvios]

It was and is Epirus....

[TirAlb]

It was and is Epirus....

Whatever you want dude,i have no problems with the name Epir.

[HellenicPride]

So stop using the term Southern Albania. Hasn't the USA given you guys enough land already?

[Orphic_Hymn]

timeline:

Albanian declaration of independence: 28 october 1912


Koritsa was liberated and held by Hellenic troops since Dec. of 1912 and its purely Hellenic character was fully acknowledged by your own government, hence why they signed the Protocol of Corfu on May 5th 1914 which allowed it to be incorporated in the state of Autonomous Epirus.

[TirAlb]

Koritsa was liberated and held by Hellenic troops since Dec. of 1912 and its purely Hellenic character was fully acknowledged by your own government, hence why they signed the Protocol of Corfu on May 5th 1914 which allowed it to be incorporated in the state of Autonomous Epirus.

The protocol of Korfu was imposed,what do you expect from a one year old country,with foreing enemy armies all around its territory.At least in the treaty of London Korca was given to its true owners not like south epir and its cities an villages.Im sure that in case of greek success there,now half of Korcars would live in turkey,exchanged with brandnew greek "epirotes",and the other half in Albania dreaming for their hometown.
Btw the article is really interesting,it shows a small part of the greek repression in the occupied areas.

[boreans79]

American schools seiyed bz Greeks (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=2&res=9802E0D7123FE633A25750C2A96F9C946296D6CF&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5215/fest19gk6.jpg

[boreans79]

Koritsa was liberated and held by Hellenic troops since Dec. of 1912 .....

Yes Korca was """liberated""" by Hellenic army in DEC. 1912 after Albanians proclaimed independence in....NOV.1912 :huh:

....and its purely Hellenic character was fully acknowledged by your own government, hence why they signed the Protocol of Corfu on May 5th 1914 which allowed it to be incorporated in the state of Autonomous Epirus.


I would say its purely Pelasgic while the real Hellenes(Dorians &/or Heraclides) are just an Illyrian tribe "grown up" on the Pelasgic soil.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/9540/ancienthistory2vc4.png

By the way, there is no Greek-speakers in Korca, just orthodox Albanians who would be offended to be called byzantine Greeks.

[boreans79]

In the text above is mentioned that Epirots are the same people with SYCELI in South Italy(according some ancient authors).
SYCELI means something in Albanian language:

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/2476/iliad58at1501centurybcqu1.gif

which is a compound word formed by:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2894/iliad58at1501centurybcqf7.gif

and

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6953/iliad58at1501centurybcws1.gif

[boreans79]

It was and is Epirus....

For you idiot I have the language of EPIRUS here:

http://patricianugee.org/photo04082007044607/1192896136.jpg

In this dictionary it explains the meaning of Epiriotic language:
THE LANGUAGE OF EPIROTES IS THE ALBANIAN,
so is the language of the GREEKS( because this Dictionary is written long before 1800(the birth of """"""""""""""Greek""""""""""""""" nation) when the "Greeks" started the adoption of the language of the ""Ancient Greeks"".

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1574/latinoepirioticummr2.png

[Drama]

What do you want to say with """""""""""" Greek"""""""""""" my gipsy-friend??? ;)

[boreans79]

What do you want to say with """""""""""" Greek"""""""""""" my gipsy-friend??? ;)

Being yourself dramatically gipsy the only way to escape the argument is playing the stupid.............oh sorry you could be.

[Drama]

Being yourself dramatically gipsy the only way to escape the argument is playing stupid.............oh sorry you could be.

It's a normal question. What's the problem?? ;)

[boreans79]

It's a normal question. What's the problem?? ;)

I know dramatically gipsy is normal on your side but since your tone was lower I will provide you the answer here:

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/8094/1pai8cva3.jpg

[olvios]

Thats a medieval book.No value or worth ,archeology has discovered they were Greek.

[olvios]

Boreans a worthless retard like you has not value or worth.You present fringe theories that only albanian nationalists believe in.

[olvios]

Greeks of course not albanians.......

Quote: "these conclusions to the evidence of archaeology, the following picture emerges. The first Greek-speaking peoples settled in Macedonia, Thessaly, and Epirus after c. 2500, and in these areas they developed different dialects". A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 56,1986

[boreans79]

Greeks of course not albanians.......

Quote: "these conclusions to the evidence of archaeology, the following picture emerges. The first Greek-speaking peoples settled in Macedonia, Thessaly, and Epirus after c. 2500, and in these areas they developed different dialects". A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 56,1986

I dont beleive you are smart enough to argue with me. You are just an well-paid idiot who brings forward some 'worthless ISBN-s' or 'olvios made worthless maps'.

Greeks is another word implying ALBANIANS.

In ancient times the name 'Greeks' was used to describe skilled warriors coming from north(Dorians & Heraclides) who cooexisted with ancient populations (pelasgians, a mixture semitic-egyptian-illyric) .

In medieval times 'Greek speakers' means populations of different ethnic groups who attend the Church and gradually adopted the "Church language" which means "Greek".

In modern times "Greek" means a mixture of populations mainly Albanians and then Bulgars, orthodox turks, slavic-macedonians, egyptians, vllahi, etc etc , who speak the language explained above under the institutional terror of the state and brainwashing/terror of the church.

These are the GRI Greeks.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Yes Korca was """liberated""" by Hellenic army in DEC. 1912 after Albanians proclaimed independence in....NOV.1912 :huh:

Not much I can do if you don't know your own history.. While Albanians had indeed proclaimed their independence prior to the date I mention, you obviously ignore that your borders (and thus your actual existance as a nation) hadn't been yet decided hence why the Treaty of London of May 30th 1913 reads:

Art. 3
His Majesty the Emperor of the Ottomans and their Majesties the Allied Sovereigns declare that they remit to His Majesty the Emperor of Germany; His Majesty the Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary; the President of the French Republic; His Majesty the King of Great Britain and Ireland, Emperor of India; His Majesty the King of Italy; and His Majesty the Emperor of All the Russias the matter of arranging the delimitation of the frontiers of Albania and all other questions concerning Albania.




I would say its purely Pelasgic while the real Hellenes(Dorians &/or Heraclides) are just an Illyrian tribe "grown up" on the Pelasgic soil.

And this wild assumption is obviously based on the babblings of Barthold Georg Niebuhr, right?
A Barthold Georg Niebuhr that claims that Thucydides provides proof that the Epirotes' language was unintelligible based on his use of the word "ἀξυνετώτατοι" (literally "witless" from the word "συνετός" = "intelligent, sagacious, wise" and the priprative a- which indicates the lack of such virtues.)


By the way, there is no Greek-speakers in Korca, just orthodox Albanians who would be offended to be called byzantine Greeks.

Might not be any now but there were several of them once.



In the text above is mentioned that Epirots are the same people with SYCELI in South Italy(according some ancient authors).
SYCELI means something in Albanian language:

OK so after this kindergarden level celebration of ignorance of linguistics we hear that Sicily means "to open your eyes"..

Now as far as what Barthold Georg Niebuhr claims..

Firstly its NOT some, since the text makes reference to a single author who's work is lost.
Furthermore his lack of credibility is obvious from his flawed claim that the Siculi were the "Pelasgians in southern Italy" since his original choice of source (Thucydides) gives us the full history of the settlement:

Thucydides 6.2

It was settled originally as follows, and the peoples that occupied it are these. The earliest inhabitants spoken of in any part of the country are the Cyclopes and Laestrygones; but I cannot tell of what race they were, or whence they came or whither they went, and must leave my readers to what the poets have said of them and to what may be generally known concerning them. [2] The Sicanians appear to have been the next settlers, although they pretend to have been the first of all and aborigines; but the facts show that they were Iberians, driven by the Ligurians from the river Sicanus in Iberia. It was from them that the island, before called Trinacaria, took its name of Sicania, and to the present day they inhabit the west of Sicily. [3] On the fall of Ilium, some of the Trojans escaped from the Achaeans, came in ships to Sicily, and settled next to the Sicanians under the general name of Elymi; their towns being called Eryx and Egesta. With them settled some of the Phocians carried on their way from Troy by a storm, first to Libya, and afterwards from thence to Sicily. [4] The Sicels crossed over to Sicily from their first home Italy, flying from the Opicans, as tradition says and as seems not unlikely, upon rafts, having watched till the wind set down the strait to effect the passage; although perhaps they may have sailed over in some other way. Even at the present day there are still Sicels in Italy; and the country got its name of Italy from Italus, a king of the Sicels, so called. [5] These went with a great host to Sicily, defeated the Sicanians in battle and forced them to remove to the south and west of the island, which thus came to be called Sicily instead of Sicania, and after they crossed over continued to enjoy the richest parts of the country for near three hundred years before any Hellenes came to Sicily; indeed they still hold the centre and north of the island.


From the above its more than simply evident that the.. not 1st nor second, but 4th wave of settlers is anything but what could be titled the "Pelasgians of S.Italy"



I know dramatically gipsy is normal on your side but since your tone was lower I will provide you the answer here:

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/8094/1pai8cva3.jpg

Your vivid imagination is obviously worth a whole lot in your little make-believe world ... So you found a pic of students being taught ANCIENT HELLENIC (keyword ANCIENT) so what?

[akritas]

American schools seiyed bz Greeks (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=2&res=9802E0D7123FE633A25750C2A96F9C946296D6CF&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)
How can you say for Greek occupation when Albania republic was formed in 1920 ?
any answer of that ?

[boreans79]

Not much I can do if you don't know your own history.. While Albanians had indeed proclaimed their independence prior to the date I mention, you obviously ignore that your borders (and thus your actual existance as a nation) hadn't been yet decided hence why the Treaty of London of May 30th 1913 reads:

You my 'Allergic Hymn' confuses two concepts: nation and state.
If the Albanian state was created in 1913 the Albanian nation has existed prior this event.
The Albanian nation has existed when it was no borders at all but when newly barbaric states (like Serbia and Greece) were artificially created it was priority for Albanians to set up their borders like you rightly say " borders in function of existance".





And this wild assumption is obviously based on the babblings of Barthold Georg Niebuhr, right?
A Barthold Georg Niebuhr that claims that Thucydides provides proof that the Epirotes' language was unintelligible based on his use of the word "ἀξυνετώτατοι" (literally witless from the word "συνετός" = intelligent, sagacious, wise and the priprative a- which indicates the lack of such virtues.):

This has nothing to do with Epirots being Pelasgians or not.



OK so after this kindergarden level celebration of ignorance of linguistics we hear that Sicily means "to open your eyes"..

One now-baby 'expert' in linguistic is enogh babble-spraying to compete within this forum, but outside it you dont pass the class. I have looked at some of your ''jobs'' and crying was conquering the screaming out of my mouth.



Your vivid imagination is obviously worth a whole lot in your little make-believe world ... So you found a pic of students being taught ANCIENT HELLENIC (keyword ANCIENT) so what?

My vivid imagination is the last resource I will use against your best inteligence offsprings. For now I can show you the way how to be obedient to somebody superior to you.

[boreans79]

How can you say for Greek occupation when Albania republic was formed in 1920 ?
any answer of that ?

What could you call it other than OCCUPATION?

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8213/20060903223335balkanaspaz8.jpg

[boreans79]

And this was Greece in 1812

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6350/balkan1812sb3.jpg

[Draco]

You my 'Allergic Hymn' confuses two concepts: nation and state.
If the Albanian state was created in 1913 the Albanian nation has existed prior this event.
Wrong. Nation and nation-state develop together and there is rarely a fully fledged nation before the establishment of the nation state, Albania is a prime example of this. Before Albania's independence most Muslim Albanians were self-identifying as Turks and most Christian Albanians as Greeks; the Albanian nation was being developed, but they needed the independent state apparatus to "educate" the masses into the new national ideology.
The Albanian nation has existed when it was no borders at all but when newly barbaric states (like Serbia and Greece) were artificially created it was priority for Albanians to set up their borders like you rightly say " borders in function of existance".
Wow, the gloves are on! :cry:

[boreans79]

And this was Greece before that:

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6049/ethnicbalcancx5.png

[boreans79]

Wrong. Nation and nation-state develop together and there is rarely a fully fledged nation before the establishment of the nation state, Albania is a prime example of this. Before Albania's independence most Muslim Albanians were self-identifying as Turks and most Christian Albanians as Greeks; the Albanian nation was being developed, but they needed the independent state apparatus to "educate" the masses into the new national ideology.

Wow, the gloves are on! :cry:

Really? What about Albanians being Epirots/Illyrians?

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/113/easterneurope1878vu7.jpg

[boreans79]

Draco, Dreq, Greks & Co
You like em?

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2021/balkans1912rb2.jpg

[Orphic_Hymn]

You my 'Allergic Hymn' confuses two concepts: nation and state.
If the Albanian state was created in 1913 the Albanian nation has existed prior this event.
The Albanian nation has existed when it was no borders at all but when newly barbaric states (like Serbia and Greece) were artificially created it was priority for Albanians to set up their borders like you rightly say " borders in function of existance".

So the child resorts to pittyfull distortions of screen-names in further celebration of his inferiority complexes..
So we and Serbs were artificially created but you, the righteous, weren't nothing more than the implementation of Austro-Hungarian geopolitic interests.. yeah that is indeed bright.

As for nation according to the comprehensive Merriam Webaster:

1 a (1): nationality 5a (2): a politically organized nationality (3): a non-Jewish nationality <why do the nations conspire — Psalms 2:1 (Revised Standard Version)>
b: a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government
c: a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status


Question:
Was the territory defined during the time in question?

Answer:
NO

This has nothing to do with Epirots being Pelasgians or not.
No it has to do with the credibility of the provided source.



One now-baby 'expert' in linguistic is enogh babble-spraying to compete within this forum, but outside it you dont pass the class. I have looked at some of your ''jobs'' and crying was conquering the screaming out of my mouth.

Wake up and see that Albanian nationalistic crap theories like Thermopyles deriving from "There Pyle" have no place in any historic discussion. But then again we've concluded that you're incompotent of having one.



My vivid imagination is the last resource I will use against your best inteligence offsprings. For now I can show you the way how to be obedient to somebody superior to you.

Child you are but a nationalist hot-head with no ability of comprehending the simplest of notions..
You claim that we spoke Albanian and provide as proof a pic of students being taught ANCIENT Hellenic.. if you don't see that you've made a fool of yourself that isn't my problem but do keep out your NAZI fixations (we do know your history) of being superior to someone that has your kind cleaning the shit off his toilet.

[boreans79]

Hej Alergic Hymn, come by and bring forward some of your Griko oriental Hymns , bythemut grek.

[Draco]

Here is another pretty map.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Balkans-ethnic1877.jpg

[akritas]

Hej Alergic Hymn, come by and bring forward some of your Griko oriental Hymns , bythemut grek.
Calm dowm and watch your attitude !!!

[boreans79]

So we and Serbs were artificially created but you, the righteous, weren't nothing more than the implementation of Austro-Hungarian geopolitic interests.. yeah that is indeed bright.


(There is a lot of crap in your post so I am not wasting my time to quote it all)

Let me describe YOU Greeks.

1. Modern Greeks are a newly nation(and a nation-state) created in 1821-29

2. In the begining they were ORTHODOX ALBANIANS(Arvanites) who called themselves HELLENES borrowing the name from mythological HELLENES.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Epanastasi.jpg

3. ALBANIANS(arvanites) are the body and the soul of Hellas.
4. Without them- there is no Hellas.
5. There are some other ethnic groups (I mentioned them before) which together with arvanites are the so called Ancient Greeks.

You will never understand the importance of NOT puting equality betwen Albanians and Slavics in your ''famous campaign" for the HELENISM.

[Draco]

1. Modern Greeks are a newly nation(and a nation-state) created in 1821-29

2. In the begining they were ORTHODOX ALBANIANS(Arvanites) who called themselves HELLENES borrowing the name from mythological HELLENES.
At least there were people calling themselves Hellenes. No one was calling themselves Albanians until the Italians & Co decided that they needed a puppet in the western Balkans, thus the Albanian national myth was founded. Before that, you'd only find people in area describing themselves as Greeks or Turks.

Makes you wonder who is really artificial. :rolleyes:

[boreans79]

Here is another pretty map.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Balkans-ethnic1877.jpg

this is one of Olvio's maps which means hygenic paper.

also

Let me tell you something .
As for MACEDONIA I am on the Greek side.
So are most of Albanians.

[boreans79]

Maps?
I can find hundred for you, just let me know

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1375/ottomanempire1856vs2.png

[boreans79]

1907

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8954/map1907largekq3.jpg

[Draco]

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1375/ottomanempire1856vs2.png
What does this map prove?

[boreans79]

What does this map prove?

The opposite of what your/olvios map was proving.

[Draco]

The opposite of what your/olvios map was proving.
What you are presenting are political maps of the Greece-Ottoman Empire border.

They do not prove that Epirus was "Albanian" nor that no Greeks lived there.

Go easy on the cocaine, bud! If you want to see the borders of Greece at various periods in time, go here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Greekhistory.GIF).

[boreans79]

What you are presenting are political maps of the Greece-Ottoman Empire border.

They do not prove that Epirus was "Albanian" nor that no Greeks lived there.

Go easy on the cocaine, bud! If you want to see the borders of Greece at various periods in time, go here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Greekhistory.GIF).

Exactly you idiot . All my maps show that all territores albanians+epirus are inhabited by Albanians because no political-state borders were set up yet.

as for your map, it reenforce my point:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Greekhistory.GIF
It shows the artificial state stealing others territores.

As for the cocaine I believe at the end of this session you will take some, because this is the only way to refresh yourself.

[Draco]

Exactly you idiot . All my maps show that all territores albanians+epirus are inhabited by Albanians because no political-state borders were set up yet.
Hahahaha, half of them don't even mention Albanians. I like the way you filled in the gaps yourself. :D
It shows the artificial state stealing others territores.
You mean that because independent Greece didn't exist before 1830, that makes it artificial? Albania didn't exist before 1913, I guess Albania is also artificial. :rolleyes:

[Draco]

As for "others' territories", perhaps we should also examine "whose" south Albania (North Epirus) is.

http://mondediplo.com/maps/albanianmdv1999

[boreans79]

Hahahaha, half of them don't even mention Albanians. I like the way you filled in the gaps yourself. :D

You mean that because independent Greece didn't exist before 1830, that makes it artificial? Albania didn't exist before 1913, I guess Albania is also artificial. :rolleyes:

You need to learn the basic lessons about many things. You like many other people beleive that Greeks is a nation. Yes they are today but not before 1800. Meanwhile the Albanians is a nation today, they were a nation prior 1800, prior 1700 AD, prior 1800 BCE and the God knows how long before that.
Not being for the Church and turks their language would be the common language among the "greeks" today.

[Draco]

the Albanians is a nation today, they were a nation prior 1800, prior 1700 AD, prior 1800 BCE and the God knows how long before that
I see the Albanian education system has duly instilled you with the Albanian national myth. :p

[boreans79]

Hahahaha, half of them don't even mention Albanians. :

check them again
..you need an eyes exam. Either you suffer from miopia or from nacionalistic miopia.

[Draco]

check them again
..you need an eyes exam. Either you suffer from miopia or from nacionalistic miopia.
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1375/ottomanempire1856vs2.png

This one in particular intrigues me since it presents "Albania" and "Epirus" as though the two are separate regions. :)

[boreans79]

I see the Albanian education system has duly instilled you with the Albanian national myth. :p

Unfortunately for you, some western scholars taught me about the truth of what you call Albanian "myth".
In Albania I learned only how to fight. And I assure you that you woke up the beast. Many Albanian youth educated in western universities would destroy the 'castle of lies' built last 180 years from religious sick propaganda.

[olvios]

Unfortunately for you, some western scholars taught me about the truth of what you call Albanian "myth".
In Albania I learned only how to fight. And I assure you that you woke up the beast. Many Albanian youth educated in western universities would destroy the 'castle of lies' built last 180 years from religious sick propaganda.

You are unrelated to Ancient Greeks meaning Epirots,Macedonians and all the rest.

Its obvious you are mentally impaired.

The Position of Albanian

Eric P. Hamp, University og Chigaco
(Ancient IE dialects, Proceedings of the Conference on IE linguistics held at the University of California,
Los Angeles, April 25-27, 1963, ed. By Henrik Birnbaum and Jaan Puhvel)

"Before continuing with the dimmer Balkan past, there are two sets of old loans in Albanian which lead us to a slender, but valuable, conclusion. It has long been recognized that the ancient Greek loans are rare. Pre-Albanian was scarcely in close contact with Greek in antiquity. This places the Albanians north of the Jicerek line."

Jicerek

Thats above the yellow line!:p
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Bgiusca_Jirecek_Line.jpg

[Draco]

Unfortunately for you, some western scholars taught me about the truth of what you call Albanian "myth".
In Albania I learned only how to fight. And I assure you that you woke up the beast. Many Albanian youth educated in western universities would destroy the 'castle of lies' built last 180 years from religious sick propaganda.
Evidently you are one of those romantics who believe that nations are timeless entities whose existence pre-dates the nineteenth century. Shumë mirë.

As for having "woken the beast", that's a baseless threat. Unless you are suggesting that the Albanian youth want to take Epirus from Greece and ethnically cleanse its population to make it Albanian, nothing is "unfortunate" for Greece. You are perfectly free to brood on your fantasies, I appreciate that fantasies can make reality more palatable. Who would want to be proud of being Albanian when Albania is one of the most poor and most corrupt countries in Europe. A strong imagination can make the whole experience seem bearable.

[boreans79]

This places the Albanians north of the Jicerek line."

Jicerek

Thats above the yellow line!:p
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Bgiusca_Jirecek_Line.jpg
Before giving you a answer I would say that you remain an repairable idiot.

Now my answer

Yes for the people who study the greek-latin dogma the Yirecek line is ok.
For the prestigiose scholars not.

[Draco]

Before giving you a answer I would say that you remain an repairable idiot.

Now my answer

Yes for the people who study the greek-latin dogma the Yirecek line is ok.
For the prestigiose scholars not.
The Jirecek line is features in all mainstream academic coverage.

If you have to dismiss mainstream views to justify your nationalist mythology, then I can only conclude that you are little better than the Macedonists we so ridicule.

[boreans79]

As for having "woken the beast", that's a baseless threat. Unless you are suggesting that the Albanian youth want to take Epirus from Greece and ethnically cleanse its population to make it Albanian, nothing is "unfortunate" for Greece.

I will never ever suggest to take Epirus from Greece and to cleanse the population. No me at least.

[boreans79]

The Jirecek line is features in all mainstream academic coverage.

If you have to dismiss mainstream views to justify your nationalist mythology, then I can only conclude that you are little better than the Macedonists we so ridicule.

The Jirecek line is not an ethnic border. It represent the border of cultural and political influence and nothing more than that.

[Draco]

The Jirecek line is not an ethnic border. It represent the border of cultural and political influence and nothing more than that.
Precisely. And since cultural and political influence has such an impact on ethnic identity (it can alienate certain groups and build affinities with others), you will realize that populations evolve and develop new identities. If this did not happen, we would probably still be Indo-Europeans speaking a common Indo-European language.

Why are Tosk and Gheg both Albanians whereas Serb and Croat separate nations? Answer: influence of religious and political culture, Serbs and Croats are separate nations whereas Albanians are one is just because the respective national myths say so. National identity is arbitrary and is shaped by politics, it is never "natural" like you seem to think.

[olvios]

Before giving you a answer I would say that you remain an repairable idiot.

Now my answer

Yes for the people who study the greek-latin dogma the Yirecek line is ok.
For the prestigiose scholars not.

:clap2:Wow Albanian intellect:)

[olvios]

They were Greeks,

"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

Greeks and Pre-Greeks: Aegean Prehistory and Greek Heroic Tradition Margalit Finkelberg,ISBN-10: 0521852161,2005,Page 133:"... which was spoken in West Thessaly (Thessaliotis), while Boeotian was in turn connected with Northwest Greek, which was spoken in Epirus. ..."

[boreans79]

Precisely. And since cultural and political influence has such an impact on ethnic identity (it can alienate certain groups and build affinities with others), you will realize that populations evolve and develop new identities. If this did not happen, we would probably still be Indo-Europeans speaking a common Indo-European language.

Why are Tosk and Gheg both Albanians whereas Serb and Croat separate nations? Answer: influence of religious and political culture, Serbs and Croats are separate nations whereas Albanians are one is just because the respective national myths say so. National identity is arbitrary and is shaped by politics, it is never "natural" like you seem to think.

Yes the Illyrians became culturally latins but remained all the time ethnically Illyrians(or gheg in modern time)
Epirots became culturally Greeks but remained all the time ethnically Epirots(or tosks)
Both Illyrians(ghegs) and Epirots(tosks) have spoken Albanian for at least 4000 years.
And they call themselves ARBEN together with the Greeks(arvanites) for at least 1000 years.

[boreans79]

They were Greeks,

"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

Greeks and Pre-Greeks: Aegean Prehistory and Greek Heroic Tradition Margalit Finkelberg,ISBN-10: 0521852161,2005,Page 133:"... which was spoken in West Thessaly (Thessaliotis), while Boeotian was in turn connected with Northwest Greek, which was spoken in Epirus. ..."

May be, but yo still remain an IDIOT.

[Foti66]

May be, but yo still remain an IDIOT.

Kindly refrain with the insults. It does nobody any good and makes you look silly.

[Draco]

Yes the Illyrians became culturally latins but remained all the time ethnically Illyrians(or gheg in modern time)
Epirots became culturally Greeks but remained all the time ethnically Epirots(or tosks)
Both Illyrians(ghegs) and Epirots(tosks) have spoken Albanian for at least 4000 years.
And they call themselves ARBEN together with the Greeks(arvanites) for at least 1000 years.
Ethnicity and culture cannot be separated. The only reason Tosks and Ghegs of all religions are one nation today is due to the success of the Pan-Albanian nationalist movement. It's a fallacy to try and project the contemporary Albanian national identity of people of the past who did not have that identity.

Christian Albanians under the Ottoman conquest did not have that identity, contemporary Arvanite Greeks do not have that identity (ask them if you want (http://www.arvasynel.gr/)). A person's identity is what that person says it is, not what others claim it is. Unfortunately the Balkan peoples tend to ignore this reality and try to project identities on other peoples (both of the past and of the present).

[TirAlb]

Ethnicity and culture cannot be separated. The only reason Tosks and Ghegs of all religions are one nation today is due to the success of the Pan-Albanian nationalist movement. It's a fallacy to try and project the contemporary Albanian national identity of people of the past who did not have that identity.

Christian Albanians under the Ottoman conquest did not have that identity, contemporary Arvanite Greeks do not have that identity (ask them if you want (http://www.arvasynel.gr/)). A person's identity is what that person says it is, not what others claim it is. Unfortunately the Balkan peoples tend to ignore this reality and try to project identities on other peoples (both of the past and of the present).

Draco its the same for the modern Greek identity,but it was not only a result of your nationalism,but of your church as well,and of many organised state policys like ethnic cleanisng,and forced assimilation.

[TirAlb]

Exactly you idiot . All my maps show that all territores albanians+epirus are inhabited by Albanians because no political-state borders were set up yet.

as for your map, it reenforce my point:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Greekhistory.GIF
It shows the artificial state stealing others territores.

As for the cocaine I believe at the end of this session you will take some, because this is the only way to refresh yourself.

Obviosly for them,North Epir was the icing on the cake.

[Draco]

Draco its the same for the modern Greek identity,but it was not only a result of your nationalism,but of your church as well,and of many organised state policys like ethnic cleanisng,and forced assimilation.
I don't deny it, however I will question the extent of "organized state policies like ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation".

If you want to open the "ethnic cleansing" can of worms remind me to address the activities of the Balli Kombëtar, BESA, the SS Division Skanderbeg, the UÇKs...

[TirAlb]

I don't deny it, however I will question the extent of "organized state policies like ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation".

If you want to open the "ethnic cleansing" can of worms remind me to address the activities of the Balli Kombëtar, BESA, the SS Division Skanderbeg, the UÇKs...

First of all oll these organizations,operated in North Albania,and the only technical ethnic cleansing made was the deportation of serbs from Kosova to Serbia proper.This acted was partially legitimated from the later yugoslavian goverment,that forbited the return in Kosova of these people,for the simple reason that all of them were slavic colons settled in kosova after 1913.

About south Albania,things were totally different,and probably not because of some sort od magnanimity of our state,but because of its weakness.Because we had all the right to ethnic cleanse our territory from the Greek minority,on many occassions,the last one after ww2 and the cham genocide.

[Draco]

First of all oll these organizations,operated in North Albania,and the only technical ethnic cleansing made was the deportation of serbs from Kosova to Serbia proper.This acted was partially legitimated from the later yugoslavian goverment,that forbited the return in Kosova of these people,for the simple reason that all of them were slavic colons settled in kosova after 1913.

About south Albania,things were totally different,and probably not because of some sort od magnanimity of our state,but because of its weakness.Because we had all the right to ethnic cleanse our territory,on many occassions,the last one after ww2 and the cham genocide.
There is no excuse for ethnic cleansing by anyone.

Regarding the Cham incident, it was perpetrated by EDES which was a rebel army and not the Greek government, you can't blame Greece for it.

The confiscations of property and/or citizenship was not because of their ethnicity, but because they had collaborated with the Nazi forces as well as committing atrocities on civilians. Many Greeks had a similar fate and the number of Greek political refugees probably exceeds that of the Chams.

As for ethnic cleansing by the Greek government, the only ethnic cleansing were the population exchanges with Turkey and Bulgaria. Both those exchanges had limited effect on Albanians, the Chams, for example, were excluded.

As for assimilation, I suppose you are talking about the Arvanites. I'd just like to point out that the opinions of the Arvanites on this matter are crystal clear and the experiences of the Greek minority in Albania under the Hoxha regime were probably much worse than what the Arvanites ever experienced.

[TirAlb]

There is no excuse for ethnic cleansing by anyone.

Regarding the Cham incident, it was perpetrated by EDES which was a rebel army and not the Greek government, you can't blame Greece for it.

I agree,but our modern borders,are a legitimization of those acts.And you know the moto:an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

The confiscations of property and/or citizenship was not because of their ethnicity, but because they had collaborated with the Nazi forces as well as committing atrocities on civilians. Many Greeks had a similar fate and the number of Greek political refugees probably exceeds that of the Chams.

Yes but these greek refuges,were pardoned,and chams no.I think its enough to deduce the real reasons of their ethnic cleansing.

As for ethnic cleansing by the Greek government, the only ethnic cleansing were the population exchanges with Turkey and Bulgaria. Both those exchanges had limited effect on Albanians, the Chams, for example, were excluded.

How were them escluded,yeah maybe the exchange was stopped at certain point after the protests of the Albanian goverment.Probably there are more chams in Turkey then in Albania today.

As for assimilation, I suppose you are talking about the Arvanites. I'd just like to point out that the opinions of the Arvanites on this matter are crystal clear and the experiences of the Greek minority in Albania under the Hoxha regime were probably much worse than what the Arvanites ever experienced

Im speaking about Arvanites spreaded all over Greece and the autochthonous Muslim and orthodox chams.Greeks suffered,like all the other Albanian citizens,and probaly less,because of their special status.

[Draco]

I agree,but our modern borders,are a legitimization of those acts.And you know the moto:an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
So what are you proposing?
Yes but these greek refuges,were pardoned,and chams no.I think its enough to deduce the real reasons of their ethnic cleansing.
The Greeks of the Civil War were pardoned. If I'm not mistaken, the Greek Nazi collaborators were not.
How were them escluded,yeah maybe the exchange was stopped at certain point after the protests of the Albanian goverment.Probably there are more chams in Turkey then in Albania today.
Those "Chams" went because they had a Turkish national identity, so, like the Arvanites, you can't consider them proper Albanians. The ones who remained in Greece were allowed to do so on the basis that "they were not Turks".
Im speaking about Arvanites spreaded all over Greece and the autochthonous Muslim and orthodox chams.Greeks suffered,like all the other Albanian citizens,and probaly less,because of their special status.
The Greeks from Albania tell us that they were special alright in that they were special victims of Enver's paranoia. He regarded them as a capitalist Trojan horse (especially after the American senate officially recognized the Greek claims to Northern Epirus).

[TirAlb]

So what are you proposing?
Nothing,just call an invasion with its name and not "liberation".


The Greeks of the Civil War were pardoned. If I'm not mistaken, the Greek Nazi collaborators were not.
as far is i know they were pardoned as well.

Those "Chams" went because they had a Turkish national identity, so, like the Arvanites, you can't consider them proper Albanians. The ones who remained in Greece were allowed to do so on the basis that "they were not Turks".

Greek official version i guess.

The Greeks from Albania tell us that they were special alright in that they were special victims of Enver's paranoia. He regarded them as a capitalist Trojan horse (especially after the American senate officially recognized the Greek claims to Northern Epirus).

They tell you exactly what you want to hear,and what you pay them for.

[kostas68]

Let me describe YOU Greeks.
1. Modern Greeks are a newly nation(and a nation-state) created in 1821-29.
The Greek nation has an remarkable historical continuity at least 3000 years and this is something reckognized by all the respectable scholars all over the world.There were allways during the centuries,in every era people who lived in Greece,spoke Greek and called themselves <Greeks>.Also admirable is the evolution of the Greek culture from the ancient time till nowadays as it's expressed by the maintenance of ancient costumes,traditions,folklore e.t.c.
2. In the begining they were ORTHODOX ALBANIANS(Arvanites) who called themselves HELLENES borrowing the name from mythological HELLENES.
First of all,the ancient Hellenes weren't a mythological but an existent people and nowadays there are their descendants,the Neo-Hellenes,even if it's difficult for you to accept it due to your envy and your inferiority complex.It's clear from what you write that you confuse the historicall with the mythological facts but this happens to them whose brains have been stuffed with a lot of nationalistic crap from shameless liers-frauds- propagandists-<historians> who are falsifying every historical source.So much <knowledge> can't be contained in their head,it explodes and...here are the results!
3. ALBANIANS(arvanites) are the body and the soul of Hellas.
4. Without them- there is no Hellas.
According to you,all the Greeks who fought against the Turks in 1821 or all the inhabitants of Greece at this time were Arvanites.Why didn't they fought then for the liberation of their brothers in Albania and why they called themselves Greeks?Why didn't the Albanians called as well themselves Greeks?A,they weren't influenced by the romantic and philhellenic ideas and the admiration of classical Greece!But if there weren't any real Greeks living in Greece who spoke Greek,then who could cultivate such ideas?
5. There are some other ethnic groups (I mentioned them before) which together with arvanites are the so called Ancient Greeks..
Now you realize what you wrote?The ancient Greeks were consisted by ...Arvanites and some other ethnic groups like Slav-Macedonians,Turks and Vlachs!Were did you read that?In Thucydides or Herodotos' history?O.K. , let's talk serious.There aren't on earth nations with pure blood without mixing,except,perhaps,the Eskimos.But the Greek nation hasn't been mixed on the degree you believe,elsewhere nobody in Greece would speak Greek today.Or do you think that Albanians are the only pure in Balkans and all the others are bastards?
It shows the artificial state stealing others territores.
Now look who is talking about artificiality!The definition of <artificial state>!We weren't stealing territories,we were liberating territories which belonged to us for centuries and were populated mainly by Greeks,not by Albanians.And we didn't steal them under the table,we fought hard for them and paid them with rivers of blood,not like others who obtained their own nationally state without one single gunshot,due to the protection of the great powers.
You like many other people beleive that Greeks is a nation. Yes they are today but not before 1800. Meanwhile the Albanians is a nation today, they were a nation prior 1800, prior 1700 AD, prior 1800 BCE and the God knows how long before that..
Yes,you are right!The ancient Albanian tribes are mentioned by all the ancient historians.So you can go to a world congress of historians or archaeologists and claim this,but you should better wear red clothes in such a case,you know,red,the same colour with the tomatoes.
Not being for the Church and turks their language would be the common language among the "greeks" today.
If you believe that all the inhabitants of Greece were Arvanites and other non Greek-speaking ethnic groups who learnt Greek by the church,you must be very naive.No one can forget his own native language and learn another one in a church and especially in a Greek one,which uses an archaic form of Greek,the <katharevousa>,that isn't easily comprehensive by naif and illiterate peasants,as was the vast majority of the Greek people during the Ottoman rule.
Unfortunately for you, some western scholars taught me about the truth of what you call Albanian "myth".
What <truth> and what <western scholars>?Like Dimitri Pilika and Agim Zeneli whose books quoted you once?
In Albania I learned only how to fight
Yes,we know how great fighters you are but also by whose side you allways fought:by the side of the tyrrans(Turks,Nazis)you were their lapdogs.By the way,great fighter,how long did you resist against the Italians during WW2 and compare it with what had happened in the Greco-Italian war.
And I assure you that you woke up the beast.
Is this a threat or a warning?We encounterd in the past succesfully more dangerous and mighty <beasts> than you and they regreted the decision they took to attack us.
Many Albanian youth educated in western universities would destroy the 'castle of lies' built last 180 years from religious sick propaganda
The only 'castle of lies' and sick propaganda i see is what you wrote but you can't understand it,as no one who is crazy can admit that he is crazy.

[Draco]

Nothing,just call an invasion with its name and not "liberation".
It's a question of opinion. For the Greeks living there, it was liberation, for the Albanians it was not.
Greek official version i guess.
Why don't you find any Albanians in Turkey for me. If these 1 million (?) Albanians in Turkey are as patriotic Albanians as the Arvanites in Greece, well...

Perhaps they were bought as well... :rolleyes:

[TirAlb]

It's a question of opinion. For the Greeks living there, it was liberation, for the Albanians it was not.

Why don't you find any Albanians in Turkey for me. If these 1 million (?) Albanians in Turkey are as patriotic Albanians as the Arvanites in Greece, well...

Perhaps they were bought as well... :rolleyes:

No man they were sold as well,precisely exchanged.I don't have to defend Turks,in my eyes they are exactly the same with Greeks.

[boreans79]

The Greek nation has an remarkable historical continuity at least 3000 years and this is something reckognized by all the respectable scholars all over the world.There were allways during the centuries,in every era people who lived in Greece,spoke Greek and called themselves <Greeks>.Also admirable is the evolution of the Greek culture from the ancient time till nowadays as it's expressed by the maintenance of ancient costumes,traditions,folklore e.t.c..

The Greek nation is a victim of an remarkable continues history of lies, of stealing others culture, costumes, traditions, folklore and even language since his creation less than 200 years ago.

First of all,the ancient Hellenes weren't a mythological but an existent people and nowadays there are their descendants,the Neo-Hellenes,even if it's difficult for you to accept it due to your envy and your inferiority complex.It's clear from what you write that you confuse the historicall with the mythological facts but this happens to them whose brains have been stuffed with a lot of nationalistic crap from shameless liers-frauds- propagandists-<historians> who are falsifying every historical source.So much <knowledge> can't be contained in their head,it explodes and...here are the results!..

You can bet your dream about your white face that you have nothing to do with the tale-people Ancient Hellenes, whose story is written by "Herodotus" & co in 900 AD .
As for my "inferiority complex" I have to tell you your xenofoby is the best example of who inferiority belongs to.

According to you,all the Greeks who fought against the Turks in 1821 or all the inhabitants of Greece at this time were Arvanites.Why didn't they fought then for the liberation of their brothers in Albania and why they called themselves Greeks?Why didn't the Albanians called as well themselves Greeks?A,they weren't influenced by the romantic and philhellenic ideas and the admiration of classical Greece!But if there weren't any real Greeks living in Greece who spoke Greek,then who could cultivate such ideas? !..

Most of them, at least 80-90 % were Arvanites.
Because they beleived they were Hellenes.
Because Albanians dont need to call themselves such name, they belong to a legendary race: ARBERORE, and Hellen is just one branch of it.
The ideas were cultivated from the CHURCH and Fanariotes.

Now you realize what you wrote?The ancient Greeks were consisted by ...Arvanites and some other ethnic groups like Slav-Macedonians,Turks and Vlachs!Were did you read that?In Thucydides or Herodotos' history?O.K. , let's talk serious.There aren't on earth nations with pure blood without mixing,except,perhaps,the Eskimos.But the Greek nation hasn't been mixed on the degree you believe,elsewhere nobody in Greece would speak Greek today.Or do you think that Albanians are the only pure in Balkans and all the others are bastards?!..

You didnt understand what I meant with other populations: I was not speaking about slavics, turks or neo-macedonians but about what remained from old populations of the ancient Pelasgians.
Albanians are the only who preserved language and traditions in their natural form far from human intervenations.

Now look who is talking about artificiality!The definition of <artificial state>!We weren't stealing territories,we were liberating territories which belonged to us for centuries and were populated mainly by Greeks,not by Albanians.And we didn't steal them under the table,we fought hard for them and paid them with rivers of blood,not like others who obtained their own nationally state without one single gunshot,due to the protection of the great powers.?!..

Nothing true in the above paragraph.

Yes,you are right!The ancient Albanian tribes are mentioned by all the ancient historians.So you can go to a world congress of historians or archaeologists and claim this,but you should better wear red clothes in such a case,you know,red,the same colour with the tomatoes...

The "ancient" historians are unable to mention the oldness of Albanians because the history of this race starts long before the birth of the most ancient historian.

If you believe that all the inhabitants of Greece were Arvanites and other non Greek-speaking ethnic groups who learnt Greek by the church,you must be very naive.No one can forget his own native language and learn another one in a church and especially in a Greek one,which uses an archaic form of Greek,the <katharevousa>,that isn't easily comprehensive by naif and illiterate peasants,as was the vast majority of the Greek people during the Ottoman rule.

'katharevousa' a semi-artificial language was never understood by common people. Thats why 20-30 years ago and even nowdays some peasants of Sparta, Athen, Theba, Euboea etc speak only Arvanitika.

What <truth> and what <western scholars>?Like Dimitri Pilika and Agim Zeneli whose books quoted you once?

Agim Zeneli is not the author of that work. He just made a resume in his web-page of the works of Europian scholars mostly Germans.

Yes,we know how great fighters you are but also by whose side you allways fought:by the side of the tyrrans(Turks,Nazis)you were their lapdogs.By the way,great fighter,how long did you resist against the Italians during WW2 and compare it with what had happened in the Greco-Italian war.

We have fight everywhere, anywhere sometimes for the wrong causa, but if I remember well WE GAVE THE LIBERTY TO THE GREEK LAND.


Is this a threat or a warning?We encounterd in the past succesfully more dangerous and mighty <beasts> than you and they regreted the decision they took to attack us..

I dont need to threaten you, and I was not talking about myself. I was talking about Albanian consience.
Attack you?
Inferiority syndroma..
The only thing I regret is the time wasting with you.

The only 'castle of lies' and sick propaganda i see is what you wrote but you can't understand it,as no one who is crazy can admit that he is crazy.

Sick propaganda? Look who is talking. You wrote milions of pages, you created milions of web-sites, you spent millions of dollars, millions of hours in the media in the most non-realistic, most chauvinistic and disinformative job and you acuse me and Albanians for making propaganda??
Thats crazy and pathetic.

[Orphic_Hymn]

The Greek nation is a victim of an remarkable continues history of lies, of stealing others culture, costumes, traditions, folklore and even language since his creation less than 200 years ago.

Unlike your history my little friend that is not only still being written but literally currently being made, Austo-Hungarian geopolitical interests and the theories that followed them have been trashed long ago. Its unfortunate internet scholars like yourself, the grads of the Uni of wikipedia that believe that they can achieve something through unsubstantiated claims.

You speak of theft, so why not ellaborate, explaina which cultural aspects, costumes (obviously refering to the fustanella but unable to explain why only the Southern and thus influence by Hellenism Albanians wear it), traditions.. and to top it off, do tell us where the language was stolen from.. Albanians maybe? are you claiming that modern Hellenic isn't the direct descendant of ancient as all true linguists agree (those that laugh at the claim that Sicily means "open your eyes") but maybe some Albanian loan ?



You can bet your dream about your white face that you have nothing to do with the tale-people Ancient Hellenes, whose story is written by "Herodotus" & co in 900 AD .
As for my "inferiority complex" I have to tell you your xenofoby is the best example of who inferiority belongs to.

"tale-people".. WTF?
So now we see not only the celebration of your ignorance but also the ridiculous theories of revisedhistory.org in which all ancient texts are the product of medieval monks.
Now when you learn how to spell xenophobia maybe then we'll spend a min to give you more info about it..

Most of them, at least 80-90 % were Arvanites.
All statstics and estimate suggest they composed approx. the 10-15% of the total population, so the question here would be, WTF did you get your 80-90%?

Because they beleived they were Hellenes.
Its not that they simply believed as you present it, they felt it, their every breath, their every strife and their one and only interest was the liberation of Hellas and the death of the Turk-Albanians (a term widely used among the Arvanites..)

Because Albanians dont need to call themselves such name, they belong to a legendary race: ARBERORE, and Hellen is just one branch of it.
Albanians had no ethnic conciousness prior to the late 1800's so what are you talking about?
Wake up and see that its time to forget about the victim syndrome they've shoved down your throat and see reality.


The ideas were cultivated from the CHURCH and Fanariotes.
While the Church did play a major role in the preservation of the language and customs it by no means formed the ethnicity nor the national conciousness.


You didnt understand what I meant with other populations: I was not speaking about slavics, turks or neo-macedonians but about what remained from old populations of the ancient Pelasgians.
Albanians are the only who preserved language and traditions in their natural form far from human intervenations.
OK, so we return to the Albanians being descendants of the Pelasgians crap theory. What language and traditions are you talking about????
A language that first appears in in its written form in the 1500's, non-existant traditions and no historic memories prior to Hoxha.. how about informing us of this rich past you claim.


The "ancient" historians are unable to mention the oldness of Albanians because the history of this race starts long before the birth of the most ancient historian.
Actually the ancients ignore the Albanians but the medieval authors don't hence why Michael Attaleiates places you in Italy (in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome)


'katharevousa' a semi-artificial language was never understood by common people. Thats why 20-30 years ago and even nowdays some peasants of Sparta, Athen, Theba, Euboea etc speak only Arvanitika.
One has to wonder where you get this info.
Firstly, Arvanitika is dying, its literally been abandoned by its own speakers yet you claim that some strictly speak it and to top it all off, to support this outrageous claim you blame it on 'kathareuousa'. Learn little one that 'kathareuousa' was abandoned some 30yrs ago as the official lang. but that is indifferent since we know that while 'kathareuousa' was the official state's lang. the common folk used dimotiki but NOT due to lack of intelligibility but due to its far more sophisticated grammar and wording.


We have fight everywhere, anywhere sometimes for the wrong causa, but if I remember well WE GAVE THE LIBERTY TO THE GREEK LAND.

Seems like grandpa didn't teach you well little one. The Turk-Albanians did nothing for these sacred lands, nothing but be a plague, the Turk's lackeys.
You and those like you fail to see that its not us that try to disassociate the Albanians from the Arvanites, but that its the Arvanites themselves that strive to. They loath your kind and find great pride in their forefather's actions of taking the heads of yours.
Honestly, how pathetic must someone's past be to lead him to resort to make claims on that of other's and not any simple individual's past, but of the individual that slew his forefather ?

[Foti66]

Congratulations Booreans79! Everyone of your above rubuttals are worthy of posting in the "F.Y.R.O.M's best one-liners,gems" thread on this forum. With this post you have managed to expose how out of touch with reality you really are. :heh:

[boreans79]

And this wild assumption is obviously based on the babblings of Barthold Georg Niebuhr, right?
A Barthold Georg Niebuhr that claims that Thucydides provides proof that the Epirotes' language was unintelligible based on his use of the word "ἀξυνετώτατοι" (literally "witless" from the word "συνετός" = "intelligent, sagacious, wise" and the priprative a- which indicates the lack of such virtues.)



Can you please explain me what do you mean with this?
Where does Niebuhr is wrong?
What do you mean with "priprative", perhaps "privative"? How come you use p instead of v and then put an unnecessary r. For me this is the prove that you are completely unfamiliar with ethymological language.

[boreans79]

One has to wonder where you get this info.
Firstly, Arvanitika is dying, its literally been abandoned by its own speakers yet you claim that some strictly speak it and to top it all off, to support this outrageous claim you blame it on 'kathareuousa'. Learn little one that 'kathareuousa' was abandoned some 30yrs ago as the official lang. but that is indifferent since we know that while 'kathareuousa' was the official state's lang. the common folk used dimotiki but NOT due to lack of intelligibility but due to its far more sophisticated grammar and wording.



Tooo much trash in your long pathetic post as usually.
I picked only the above one:
Your 'popular' language is a compromise betwen 'katharevousa' and 'dimotiki' which was filled full with thousants of newly-coined words imitating the ancient greek ones. It started in 1800's and has not finished yet.
That happened with the pure intention: GIVING THE LANGUAGE OF THE "GREEKS'' THE CHARACTER OF THE ANCIENT GREEK LANGUAGE.
You speak a falsified language my friend, but this doesnt surprise me because you are a false nation in every cell.

[boreans79]

......And this wild assumption is obviously based on the babblings of Barthold Georg Niebuhr, right?
A Barthold Georg Niebuhr that claims that Thucydides provides proof that the Epirotes' language was unintelligible based on his use of the word "ἀξυνετώτατοι" (literally "witless" from the word "συνετός" = "intelligent, sagacious, wise" and the priprative a- which indicates the lack of such virtues.)

OK so after this kindergarden level celebration of ignorance of linguistics we hear ...

I would say that the only one who is BABLING is you. Niebhur is completely right about it. But I dont blame you because you cant understand him and some other respected scholars like him.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9265/iliad58at1501centurybcoq7.gif

[Draco]

Tooo much trash in your long pathetic post as usually.
I picked only the above one:
Your 'popular' language is a compromise betwen 'katharevousa' and 'dimotiki' which was filled full with thousants of newly-coined words imitating the ancient greek ones. It started in 1800's and is not finished yet.
That happened with the pure intention: GIVING THE LANGUAGE OF THE "GREEKS'' THE CHARACTER OF THE ANCIENT GREEK LANGUAGE.
You speak a falsified language my friend, but this doesnt surprise me because you are a false nation in every cell.
What is Dimotiki? :rolleyes:

Also, speaking of artificial languages, we musn't overlook contemporary literary Albanian which is an artificial synthesis of the mutually unintelligible Tosk and Gheg literary languages to try to give the illusion of a unified Albanian nation.

[boreans79]

What is Dimotiki? :rolleyes:

Also, speaking of artificial languages, we musn't overlook contemporary literary Albanian which is an artificial synthesis of the mutually unintelligible Tosk and Gheg literary languages to try to give the illusion of a unified Albanian nation.

You big lier.
The official language of Albanians is ONLY tosk based, nothing gheg in it.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Can you please explain me what do you mean with this?
Where does Niebuhr is wrong?
What do you mean with "priprative", perhaps "privative"? How come you use p instead of v and then put an unnecessary r. For me this is the prove that you are completely unfamiliar with ethymological language.

Yes it is privative but rediculous assumptions and analysis on why it happened when its obvious gets you nowhere.

As already explained Niebuhr, claims that the use of the word "ἀξυνετώτατοι" by Thucydides when refering to the Epirots in contrast to "ἀξύνετοι" used for the Mysians proves that they didn't understand the language (Hellenic). All you have to do is look into the text yourself and see how the word is translated to see that the claim is flawed if not utterly rediculous.

Lets take the translation at perseus.tufts as an example:

3.42.2 "ἀξύνετοι" is translated as "senseless" (the man who uses it must be either senseless )

3.42.3 "ἀξυνετώτατοι" is translated as "ignorance" (If ignorance only were imputed)

4.17.2 "ἀξυνετώτατοι" is translated as "ignorant" (as if we thought you ignorant and wished to lecture you)

6.76.4 "ουκ ἀξυνετώτατοι" (note ουκ=not) is translated (wiser indeed .....than the first)

I could continue but its obvious that while the word can mean what he suggests (among other things) Thucydides used either form of the word to describe someone's wit, his intellect if you'd prefer and not his comprehension of a language.

[Draco]

You big lier.
The official language of Albanians is ONLY tosk based, nothing gheg in it.
Hahaha, most Albanians are Ghegs, you say they have no influence on the standard language at all? :rolleyes: Let's see...
There are two main dialects of spoken Albanian: Gheg, spoken in northern Albania and Kosovo, and Tosk, spoken in southern Albania. Until recently both dialects had their own standard varieties. Attempts to form a single standard variety began immediately after World War II, both in and outside Albania. This aim was accomplished only at the beginning of the seventies. Since then Albanian has had a single standard variety or a 'literary language', as it is called by Albanians. Concerning the model of standardization, it should be pointed out that it is neither Tosk nor Gheg, but a mixture of the two, although it can be noticed that the Tosk element prevails in standard Albanian.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_QrCCuPmWsMC&pg=PT17&sig=vfXPJZhjq7wFzUNlQP6spDK1rW4
So Tosk and Gheg used to have separate standardized forms until pan-Albanian nationalists decided to artificially form a common language by mixing them (although I will give it to you that Tosk influences have been proven to be more influential).

According to Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aln), Tosk and Gheg are not intelligible, this means that speakers can't understand each other. This in itself makes claims regarding a natural Albanian nation and its unity bogus.

The lengths nationalists went to to artificially create an Albanian nation (which was only created in the first place to serve the Central Powers' interests) are amazing!

[boreans79]

Yes it is privative but rediculous assumptions and analysis on why it happened when its obvious gets you nowhere.

As already explained Niebuhr, claims that the use of the word "ἀξυνετώτατοι" by Thucydides when refering to the Epirots in contrast to "ἀξύνετοι" used for the Mysians proves that they didn't understand the language (Hellenic). All you have to do is look into the text yourself and see how the word is translated to see that the claim is flawed if not utterly rediculous.

Lets take the translation at perseus.tufts as an example:

3.42.2 "ἀξύνετοι" is translated as "senseless" (the man who uses it must be either senseless ).

there is no escape for you despite your desperate efforts

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/447/iliad58at1501centurybcwh1.gifhttp://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9265/iliad58at1501centurybcoq7.gif



3.42.3 "ἀξυνετώτατοι" is translated as "ignorance" (If ignorance only were imputed)

4.17.2 "ἀξυνετώτατοι" is translated as "ignorant" (as if we thought you ignorant and wished to lecture you).

This proves how ignorant you are in the matter:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4503/iliad58at1501centurybcco4.gif



6.76.4 "ουκ ἀξυνετώτατοι" (note ουκ=not) is translated (wiser indeed .....than the first).

Thank you for your explanation but I am very familiar with the word 'ουκ=not' because in Arbanian language we use it every day very similarly:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/6163/iliad58at1501centurybcix1.gif

I could continue but its obvious that while the word can mean what he suggests (among other things) Thucydides used either form of the word to describe someone's wit, his intellect if you'd prefer and not his comprehension of a language.

You could continue the whole day, and the whole day along I will prove you wrong and desperate.

[boreans79]

Hahaha, most Albanians are Ghegs, you say they have no influence on the standard language at all? :rolleyes: Let's see...

Most of the Albanians in Albania are tosks and the official language is totally based on tosk dialect.

So Tosk and Gheg used to have separate standardized forms until pan-Albanian nationalists decided to artificially form a common language by mixing them (although I will give it to you that Tosk influences have been proven to be more influential).

According to Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aln), Tosk and Gheg are not intelligible, this means that speakers can't understand each other. This in itself makes claims regarding a natural Albanian nation and its unity bogus.

The lengths nationalists went to to artificially create an Albanian nation (which was only created in the first place to serve the Central Powers' interests) are amazing!

You are another desperate person and I can prove you during the entire day wrong.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=als

Albanian, Tosk
A language of Albania
ISO 639-3: als

Population 2,900,000 in Albania (1989). Population total all countries: 2,980,000.
Region Mainly south Albania to the Shkumbi River. Also spoken in Belgium, Egypt, Germany, Greece, Sweden, Turkey (Europe), Ukraine, USA.
Alternate names Tosk, Arnaut, Shkip, Shqip, Skchip, Shqiperë, Zhgabe
Dialects Arbanasi (Zadar), Srem (Syrmia), Camerija, Korca. Reported to be inherently unintelligible with Gheg Albanian and partially intelligible with Arvanitika Albanian of Greece. Not intelligible with Arbëreshë of Italy. Tosk has been the basis of the official language for Standard Albanian since 1952.
Classification Indo-European, Albanian, Tosk
Language use Official language. It is used in schools.
Language development Grammar. Bible: 1993.
Comments The Jevgjit claim to be Egyptians, but may be assimilated Roma. SVO. Coastal, mountain slope. Deciduous forest. Sea level to 800 meters. Peasant agriculturalists; animal husbandry: sheep; petroleum workers. Muslim, Christian (Orthodox).

[boreans79]

According to Ethnologue[/URL], Tosk and Gheg are not intelligible, this means that speakers can't understand each other.

Let me tell you son;
We dont need Ethnologue to teach us if we can understand each other or not.
A gheg is well understood by a tosk and vice-verca.
Whoever wrote this claim in Ethnologue is such at least ignorante and malevolent.

[Orphic_Hymn]

there is no escape for you despite your desperate efforts

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/447/iliad58at1501centurybcwh1.gifhttp://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9265/iliad58at1501centurybcoq7.gif



All this proves is your incapability to comprehend how a dictionary works.
Ask yourself, why is "ασυνετος" never presented as the first corresponding word in your ridiculous little attempt to teach me my language?
Simple child, its because its first meaning is NOT unintelligible.

Liddell and Scott Lexicon:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/asunetos.jpg


Can you understad that II means: 2, second, NOT FIRST ?


This proves how ignorant you are in the matter:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4503/iliad58at1501centurybcco4.gif


No child it proves that you're an intellectual midget.
Read my post and understand that I simply indicated how the word is translated in perseus.tufts, (hence the quotation of the sentence its used in) a translation which clearly supports what I previously said about the word's meaning and how its presented in Thucydides' text.


Thank you for your explanation but I am very familiar with the word 'ουκ=not' because in Arbanian language we use it every day very similarly:

Yeah and now we have the Albanians as the original IE's.. LOL


You could continue the whole day, and the whole day I will prove you wrong and desperate.

No little one, all you've proven is that you are incapable of reading a simple dictionary.

[boreans79]

So Tosk and Gheg used to have separate standardized forms until pan-Albanian nationalists decided to artificially form a common language by mixing them (although I will give it to you that Tosk influences have been proven to be more influential).

Tosk and Gheg are not intelligible, this means that speakers can't understand each other. This in itself makes claims regarding a natural Albanian nation and its unity bogus.



The dialectal differences between Gheg and Tosk are minimal. The most strikingone’s are:
- nasal vowels in Gheg, missing in Tosk ( bâ - bëj “I do’);
- long vowels in Gheg with phonological values, missing in Tosk;
- ë (schwa) very frequent in Tosk and also stressed at times, missing in spoken Gheg and to which the nasal â (hân - hënë ‘moon’) corresponds in the same position;
- ue diphthong or long u in Gheg, to which ua in Tosk corresponds (all from uo>o diphthongization, due, du - dua ‘I want’, grue, gru - grua ‘woman’);
- the initial vo- in Gheg in a very small number of cases, to which va- in Tosk corresponds (voj - vaj oil);
- the intervocalic -n- in Gheg, to which Tosk corresponds with rhotacism -r- (ranw - rërë ‘sand’, venë - verë ‘wine’);
- terminal voiced consonants in Gheg are heard devoiced in Tosk (kalb - kalp ‘make rotten’, i madh - i math ‘big’);
- the consonant clusters mb, nd, ng, ngj in Tosk are heard as distinct sounds, while reduced to m, n, nj in Gheg ( mbush - mush ‘fill’, vend - ven ‘place’, ngas - nas ‘tease’, ngjesh - njesh ‘press’);
- intervocalic nj in Tosk is reduced in j in Gheg ( rrënjë - rrâj ‘root’);
- imperfect tense forms ending in -sha, -she in Gheg have Tosk correspondences -nja, -nje ( punojsha - punonja ‘I worked’ );
- Turkish loan-words in Gheg are paroxytonic, in Tosk oxytonic (ág - agá, káfe – kafé ‘coffee’);
- difference in the definite forms of the nouns in ue/ua: (Gheg thue - thoni, Tosk thua thoni ‘finger-nail’);
- Gheg preserves the endings of verbs with consonantal stem, Tosk omits the endings (Gheg un hapi Tosk unë hap ‘I open’);
- Tosk preserves the endings of the participles, Gheg omits the endings (hapur - hap ‘opened’, larë - la ‘washed’);
- presence of the reflexive pronoun i vet his own in Gheg, missing in Tosk;
- presence of an infinitive form in Gheg ( me shkue ‘to go’), absence in Tosk, replaced by a circumlocution (për të shkuar);
- presence in Gheg of a future tense with the present of the auxiliary “to have” plus the infinitive of the verb ( kam me shkue ‘I will go’), missing in Tosk;
- deverbative adjectives in Gheg, absent in Tosk, expressing possibility with the suffix -shem, different from passive participial adjectives (i punueshem cultivable - i punuem cultivated).
In general, Tosk has been more innovative in the previous period, while Gheg is today more reductive. Gheg and Tosk are mutually intelligible, and in a small country with recent great demographic movements, the old regional divisions are becoming more and more conventional.

[boreans79]

All this proves is your incapability to comprehend how a dictionary works.
Ask yourself, why is "ασυνετος" never presented as the first corresponding word in your ridiculous little attempt to teach me my language?
Simple child, its because its first meaning is NOT unintelligible.

Liddell and Scott Lexicon:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/asunetos.jpg

Can you understad that II means: 2, second, NOT FIRST ?

No child it proves that you're an intellectual midget.
Read my post and understand that I simply indicated how the word is translated in perseus.tufts, (hence the quotation of the sentence its used in) a translation which clearly supports what I previously said about the word's meaning and how its presented in Thucydides' text.

Yeah and now we have the Albanians as the original IE's.. LOL

No little one, all you've proven is that you are incapable of reading a simple dictionary.

The truth is that you will make every effort to pose yourself at least not a looser. Wasting time with you in endless vicious debate and perceptions is what do you try to achieve. No man , thank you I dont have to play your game, a game of the defeated in the battle , released by the generosity of his opponent and then posing himself like an... winner.
I know you try hard but with scarce results.

[boreans79]

Simple child, its because its first meaning is NOT unintelligible.

Liddell and Scott Lexicon:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/asunetos.jpg


Can you understad that II means: 2, second, NOT FIRST ?



First you called it (Niebhur job) babblings of Barthold Georg Niebuhr,
Then you called it kindergarden level celebration of ignorance of linguistics
Then you admited that the word means (beside other similar meanings) unintelligible

have a cry now..

[gmellos]

First you called it (Niebhur job) babblings of Barthold Georg Niebuhr,
Then you called it kindergarden level celebration of ignorance of linguistics
Then you admited that the word means (beside other similar meanings) unintelligible

have a cry now..


hi i have a question for you what are the reasons behind you coming here?? besides trolling there MUST a reason!???

[Orphic_Hymn]

First you called it (Niebhur job) babblings of Barthold Georg Niebuhr,
Then you called it kindergarden level celebration of ignorance of linguistics
Then you admited that the word means (beside other similar meanings) unintelligible

have a cry now..

Child your trolling doesn't work here.. stop nit-picking my posts while intentionally taking them out of context and address the issue with facts!!! Can you provide the exact quote which your so-called "reknowned scholar" is refering to and a translation which would support this drivel ?

Now as for what I said:
a) YES Barthold Georg Niebuhr is totally flawed when claiming that Thucydides used the word "ἀξυνετώτατοι" with the meaning of unintelligible. As I stated before, if you want I can present all 13 total entries of any form of the word in Thucydides' text with the coresponding translation which will prove that he never once used it as he claims.

b) This is either intentionally taken out of context or simply the result of your limited comprehension of simple english. Since its obvious that its the 1st, tell me little one, why resort to presenting a nit-picked version of what I said when in reality, it had nothing to do with the "scholar's" babblings but with your mastrubation in what only you'd title linguistics?


OK so after this kindergarden level celebration of ignorance of linguistics we hear that Sicily means "to open your eyes"..


c) the "other" meaning's existance was never rejected but it was its use in the text in question that clearly was.

Now do run along and find me a translation of Thucydides text that has given the "other meaning" to the specific word "ἀξυνετώτατοι".. To assist you in your quest, I'll just mention that the only use of the word "ἀξυνετώτατοι" in the entire text is found in book 6.39.2

[kostas68]

The Greek nation is a victim of an remarkable continues history of lies, of stealing others culture, costumes, traditions, folklore and even language since his creation less than 200 years ago.
Who is trying to steal now his neighbour's history and legacy?Look at the mirror and you'll see him!Listen,i can understand that someone who has nothing admirable or glorious to remember of his past is envying his neighbour's history which is full of these things,but he has not the right to usurp it.If he wants to feel better,then he must leave the past of the others and try to make a better present and future for him.This is something that happens only with Greece and its neighbors,all of them are trying to usurp a part of its history:the <Macedonians>,the Bulgarians,the Albanians the Turks...Is this accidental or it shows something?We have in Greece 2 proverbs about this:<It's better to be envied than pitied>(Herodotos) and :<Nobody is more certain enemy than someone who was benefited>.
You can bet your dream about your white face that you have nothing to do with the tale-people Ancient Hellenes, whose story is written by "Herodotus" & co in 900 AD .
How do you know what was the physical appearance of the ancient Greeks?Did you went back to antiquity with your time machine or have you any photos of them?And as far as i've seen,the Albanians,who are according to you the descendants of the ancient Hellenes,are not famous for their height.
whose story is written by "Herodotus" & co in 900 AD .
Herodotus in 900 A.D. ? Is this a new theory of your <historians>?
As for my "inferiority complex" I have to tell you your xenofoby is the best example of who inferiority belongs to.
Xenophoby in Greece is in the lowest levels between the EU states.
A lot of your compatriots are living and working in Greece and i believe that the vast majority of them hasn't such problems.Off course there can be some exceptions but we can't generalize them.Some problems which occured between Greeks and Albanian immigrants are owing to the fact that amongst the thousand of the Albanian immigrants who came in Greece were some criminals who probably escaped from the Albanian prisons and continued their <career> on Greek soil.I reckognize that the vast majority of the Albanian immigrants in Greece are peaceful people who want just work and make money here,but those few criminals maybe damaged the image of the Albanians in Greece.The Greeks are very hospitable people,but if they are bothered by the attitude of some foreigners who are living in Greece,it's reasonable that they'll react.I'll ask you only this:How would your people react if you had in Albania 200.000-300.000 foreign immigrants and amongst them were 2.000-3.000 criminals who were commiting every week several crimes as thefts,robberies,murders e.t.c. ? How would you feel for those immigrants generally?Nonetheless,my oppinion is that in Greece doesn't exist the problem of xenophoby at the level that exists in other European countries(France,Great Brittany,Germany e.t.c.) and an immigrant in Greece who is looking his job and doesn't bother no one,has nothing to fear.
We have in my village some Albanian families and they haven't any problem here.Their children are playing with our children. Many times my little daughters brought in our house their Albanian school mates and they went also in theirs.If i was a xenophobic and racist,i wouldn't allow this.And,another example of the Greek xenophoby:5 months ago,a house where an Albanian family lived in my village,was burned by an accident.Their whole property,furnitures,clothes,e.t.c. was destroyed and an old Greek woman who lived in the neighbouring house was burned alive by this fire.A week later,our priest collected from the villagers around 3.000 euros
and gave this money to the Albanian family.
Most of them, at least 80-90 % were Arvanites.
Because they beleived they were Hellenes.
Because Albanians dont need to call themselves such name, they belong to a legendary race: ARBERORE, and Hellen is just one branch of it.
The ideas were cultivated from the CHURCH and Fanariotes.
There is no much to comment on such a nationalistic delirium but how did you get that the Greek revolutionist army was consisted exclusively by Arvanites?Ah,yes,there was also a tiny 10-20% of Greeks,thanks a lot for your gentility!Seriously now,Arvanites weren't more than 20%,either you believe it or not.
And the... legendary Arberore,off course weren't the ancestors of the Hellenes!If the ancient Hellenes had such an origin they would never produced the Greek civilization.When the ancient Hellenes built the Parthenon,the Arberore were living in caves and trying to set fire with stones.This is something that makes you feeling inferior and therefore you are trying to usurp their legacy.
Albanians are the only who preserved language and traditions in their natural form far from human intervenations.
Yes this pure and traditional race,the only race in Balkans with ancient origin.Tell me,my friend,the Pelasgians were traditionally moslems?
The "ancient" historians are unable to mention the oldness of Albanians because the history of this race starts long before the birth of the most ancient historian. .
Since when?Maybe they lived in the garden of Edem with Adam and Eva!The historians never write about <nonexistent> people who never made something usefull for mankind.
'katharevousa' a semi-artificial language was never understood by common people. Thats why 20-30 years ago and even nowdays some peasants of Sparta, Athen, Theba, Euboea etc speak only Arvanitika.
Your nationalistic illusions have no limits!
Agim Zeneli is not the author of that work. He just made a resume in his web-page of the works of Europian scholars mostly Germans.
When did those historians live?Maybe at the time of the Nazis and the theories about the Arians?And this Agim Zeneli probably misinterpreted their work
We have fight everywhere, anywhere sometimes for the wrong causa, but if I remember well WE GAVE THE LIBERTY TO THE GREEK LAND.
The allmighty Albanians who liberated other nations but couldn't liberate themselves!
The only thing I regret is the time wasting with you.
The only time you waisted is when you stuffed your brains with all this nationalistic crap,the <history made in Albania>.
Sick propaganda? Look who is talking. You wrote milions of pages, you created milions of web-sites, you spent millions of dollars, millions of hours in the media in the most non-realistic, most chauvinistic and disinformative job and you acuse me and Albanians for making propaganda??
Thats crazy and pathetic.
I tell you only this:If a neutral observer,a respectable historian or scholar will read our posts,whom do you believe that he will accuse for absurd and groundless propaganda?

[boreans79]

hi i have a question for you what are the reasons behind you coming here?? besides trolling there MUST a reason!???

Yeah, good point, coming here is just waste of time.
The forum is all yours , now on flatter each-other, returning in your collective selfhypnotic situation.
All the best all of you .

[gmellos]

Yeah, good point, coming here is just waste of time.
The forum is all yours , now on flatter each-other, returning in your collective selfhypnotic situation.
All the best all of you .

What I was trying to get at was that your intention wasn't to have a debate BUT to fight with some of us and flount your socalled version of the truth behind the history behind our people!?

[bonaqua]

What I was trying to get at was that your intention wasn't to have a debate BUT to fight with some of us and flount your socalled version of the truth behind the history behind our people!?

It is so sad to see that if someone presents his arguments and facts, all of you consider it as flaunt your so called truth, propaganda.... etc. Everything that Greeks present is pure truth, and what Macedonians present is propaganda. This is not fair at all.

[olvios]

It is so sad to see that if someone presents his arguments and facts, all of you consider it as flaunt your so called truth, propaganda.... etc. Everything that Greeks present is pure truth, and what Macedonians present is propaganda. This is not fair at all.

Life is not fair.And Skopians and Albanians were in communism for a long time.Blame communism.

Slavs have nothing to do with Macedonians who were Greeks.Your "Macedonians" are Bulgarians.

Albanians are unrelated to Ancient Greece and Ancient Greeks,get over it.