Greekness of Molossians

[Ptolemy]

The Molossians were Greeks. Their mythical "anchestor" was the son of Achilles, the leader of the Myrmidons, who participated in the Troyan war
and the first people ever to be refered to as "Greeks". Insriptions left behind from them are all in Greek; in a particular north-western Greek
dialect to be exact. Similar holds BTW for the Macedonians but there the argumeent is that the insriptions found are in many different dialects.
Since I am at it, here's a little "present" from E. Borza, one of the historians that dispute the Greekness of the Macedonians. I am sure it will beenlightening...

"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group,
the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

"We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by
different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to
those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and
Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78


"When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the
central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled
plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98

[Ptolemy]

"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for
service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were
doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London,
1994

"Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis
and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks."

Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece",
Penguin Publ., 1996

[Ptolemy]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/c*gi-bin/ptext?doc=3DPerseus%3At*ext%3A199...


CXXVI. In the next generation Cleisthenes1 the tyrant of Sicyon raised that house still higher, so that it grew much more famous in Hellas than it had formerly been. Cleisthenes son of Aristonymus son of Myron son of Andreas had one daughter, whose name was Agariste. He desired to wed her to the best man he could find in Hellas. [2] It was the time of the Olympian games, and when he was victor there with a four-horse chariot, Cleisthenes made a proclamation that whichever Greek thought himself worthy to be his son-in-law should come on the sixtieth day from then or earlier to Sicyon, and Cleisthenes would make good his promise of marriage in a year from that sixtieth day. [3] Then all the Greeks who were proud of themselves and their country came as suitors, and to that end Cleisthenes had them compete in running and wrestling contests.


CXXVII. From Italy came Smindyrides of Sybaris, son of Hippocrates, the most luxurious liver of his day (and Sybaris was then at the height of
its prosperity), and Damasus of Siris, son of that Amyris who was called the Wise. [2] These came from Italy; from the Ionian Gulf, Amphimnestus son of Epistrophus, an Epidamnian; he was from the Ionian Gulf. From Aetolia came Males, the brother of that Titormus who surpassed all the Greeks in strength, and fled from the sight of men to the farthest parts of the Aetolian land. [3] From the Peloponnese came Leocedes, son of Phidon the tyrant of Argos, that Phidon who made weights and measures for the Peloponnesians1 and acted more arrogantly than any other Greek; he drove out the Elean contest-directors and held the contests at Olympia himself. This man's son now came, and Amiantus, an Arcadian from Trapezus, son of Lycurgus; and an Azenian from the town of Paeus, Laphanes, son of that Euphorion who, as the Arcadian tale relates, gave lodging to the Dioscuri, and ever since kept open house for all men; and Onomastus from Elis, son of Agaeus. [4] These came from the Peloponnese itself; from Athens Megacles, son of that Alcmeon who visited Croesus, and also Hippocleides son of Tisandrus, who surpassed the Athenians in wealth and looks. From Eretria, which at that time was prosperous, came Lysanias; he was the only man from Euboea. From Thessaly came a Scopad, Diactorides of Crannon; and from the Molossians, Alcon.


CXXVIII. These were the suitors. .............

[akritas]

I didn't read the book of Borza book because in the Greece never intresting to read a book that say the known thinks.
I am surprising with those quotes as about the Mollosians!!
Nice info Perseas:)

But he speaks for Greek speakers, a common term from Borza and the rest of the FYROM

[Ptolemy]

Best book about ancient Epirus, is "Epirus" of NGL Hammond.
i was searching it for long time in Athens bookstores till i find it. Its easy to find it in Salonica from "Ekdoseis Malliaris". The only usefulness i find in having a book of Borza is that Hammond makes many references to self-contradicting arguments used by Borza in his books and i need to have the book to know what the exactly he is writing.

[akritas]

Agree with you. When I have the chance and will go any trip in the US I will searching the Borza book.
You are very lucky with the Hammond and Epirus book. In Athens is very difficult to find the book. The Macedonian State I founded with a lot walking!!!!

[Ptolemy]

More about the greekness of Molossian Royal family from the book of Paul Catledge "The Greeks: Crucible of Civilization 2000".


Chapter 14, page 213

"Still, Olympias, a Greek from Epirus married to a king of Macedon"

Chapter 14, page 216

"Olympias, it seems, though Greek by birth..."

[Ptolemy]

EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland)

North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.

Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.

Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia.
Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the
Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central
Greece especially.

Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.

A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.

Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career.

The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.

His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell.

An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron
in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.

It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked
by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported.

Central Epirus never recovered; but northern Epirus prospered during the late republic, and Augustus celebrated his victory at Actium by founding a Roman colony at Nicopolis.

Under the empire a coastal road and a road through the interior were built from north to south, and Buthrotum was a Roman colony.

Ancient remains testify to the great prosperity of Epirus in Hellenistic times.

N.G.L.Hammond,
"Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.546,547

[Ptolemy]

Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation...
...So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be
afraid of the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay neutral and do not side with the unjust.

[Ptolemy]

The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots."

Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press,
1990.

[Ptolemy]

The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the
northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia....


Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge
University Press, 1997

Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus.


David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World", Oxford, 1995

Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these
tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large
tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes
were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect).


NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994

[Ptolemy]

the Satyres by Juvenal

The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Acchilles..

Page 225


----------------------------------------------------

"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew

That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;

Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking

Page 284

[Ptolemy]

"The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume 6, the Fourth Century BC" by D M Lewis, Martin Ostwald, Simon Hornblower, John Boardman

however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization.

In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland.

Page 443

The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group.

Page 423

[Ptolemy]

A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography" by William Smith

Molossi (Μολοσσοί), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Μολοσσία) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself. In their new abodes they intermingled with the original inhabitants of the land and with the neighbouring illyrian tribes of which they were regarded by the other Greeks as half barbarians. They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.

[Ptolemy]

That they [Dorians] were related to the North-West Dialects (of Phocis, Locris, Aetolia, Acarnania and Epirus) was not perceived clearly by the ancients

History of the Language Sciences: I. Approaches to Gender II. Manifestations
By Sylvain Auroux, page 439

[Nikas]

"Zeus Archon, Dodonean, Pelasgian, who dwells afar, ruling on rough wintered Dodona, surrounded by the Selloi, the interpreters of your divine will, whose feet are unwashed and sleep on the ground".

Homer, Iliad 16:127 (Achilles prayer)

XI. "War was at the same time proclaimed against the Tarentines (who are still a people at the extremity of Italy), because they had offered violence to some Roman ambassadors. These people asked aid against the Romans of Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, who derived his origin from the family of Achilles...

XIII. "...Thus the ambassador of Pyrrhus returned; and, when Pyrrhus asked him "what kind of a place he had found Rome to be," Cineas replied, that "he had seen a country of kings, for that all there were such, as Pyrrhus alone was thought to be in Epirus and the rest of Greece."

Eutropius (Abridgment of Roman History) Historiae Romanae Breviarium


"Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"

"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."

Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer


“Peleus is the forefather of the kings of Epiros�

Pausanias, II (Corinth).

Peleus being the son of King Aeacus (the dynasty's name) and the father of Achilles.

“but we know of no Greek before Pyrros who fought against Rome.�

Pausanias, 1.11

“So Pyrros was the first to cross over against Rome from mainland Greece, and even so he went over only because he was called in by Tarentum�

Pausanias, 1.12

[6] Being apprized of Alcmaeon's untimely end and courted by Zeus, Callirrhoe requested that the sons she had by Alcmaeon might be full grown in order to avenge their father's murder. And being suddenly full-grown, the sons went forth to right their father's wrong. Now Pronous and Agenor, the sons of Phegeus, carrying the necklace and robe to Delphi to dedicate them, turned in at the house of Agapenor at the same time as Amphoterus and Acarnan, the sons of Alcmaeon; and the sons of Alcmaeon killed their father's murderers, and going to Psophis and entering the palace they slew both Phegeus and his wife. They were pursued as far as Tegea, but saved by the intervention of the Tegeans and some Argives, and the Psophidians took to flight.

[7] Having acquainted their mother with these things, they went to Delphi and dedicated the necklace and robe according to the injunction of Achelous. Then they journeyed to Epirus, collected settlers, and colonized Acarnania.

Apollodorus, 3.76-3.77.

Acarnania was Greek and settlers from Epirus helped colonize it...

[12] After remaining in Tenedos two days at the advice of Thetis, Neoptolemus set out for the country of the Molossians by land with Helenus, and on the way Phoenix died, and Neoptolemus buried him; and having vanquished the Molossians in battle he reigned as king and begat Molossus on Andromache. And Helenus founded a city in Molossia and inhabited it, and Neoptolemus gave him his mother Deidamia to wife. And when Peleus was expelled from Phthia by the sons of Acastus and died, Neoptolemus succeeded to his father's kingdom."

Apollodorus, 6.12

"Alexander, the Epirote, when waging war against the Illyrians, first placed a force in ambush, and then dressed up some of his own men in Illyrian garb, ordering them to lay waste his own, that is to say, Epirote territory. When the Illyrians saw that this was being done, they themselves began to pillage right and left — the more confidently since they thought that those who led the way were scouts. But when they had been designedly brought by the latter into a disadvantageous position, they were routed and killed."

Frontinus, Strategemata, On Ambushes, 10

"When Harrybas, king of the Molossians, was attacked in war by Bardylis, the Illyrian, who commanded a considerably larger army, he dispatched the non-combatant portion of his subjects to the neighbouring district of Aetolia, and spread the report that he was yielding up his towns and possessions to the Aetolians. He himself, with those who could bear arms, placed ambuscades here and there on the mountains and in other inaccessible places. The Illyrians, fearful lest the possessions of the Molossians should be seized by the Aetolians, began to race along in disorder, in their eagerness for plunder. As soon as they became scattered, Harrybas, emerging from his concealment and taking them unawares, routed them and put them to flight."

Frontinus, Strategemata, 13

Seems clear that the Epirotes were NOT Illyrians...

"It was for this reason that Pyrrhus was defeated by the Romans also in a battle to the finish. For it was no mean or untrained army that he had, but the mightiest of those then in existence among the Greeks and one that had fought a great many wars; nor was it a small body of men that was then arrayed under him, but even three times as large as his adversary's, nor was its general any chance leader, but rather the man whom all admit to have been the greatest of all the generals who flourish at that same period;"


Dionysius of Halicarnnasus, Roman Antiquities, 19.11

"Theopompus says, that there are fourteen Epirotic nations. Of these, the most celebrated are the Chaones and Molotti, because the whole of Epirus was at one time subject, first to Chaones, afterwards to Molotti. Their power was greatly strengthened by the family of their kings being descended from the Æacidæ, and because the ancient and famous oracle of Dodona was in their country. Chaones, Thesproti, and next after these Cassopæi, (who are Thesproti,) occupy the coast, a fertile tract reaching from the Ceraunian mountains to the Ambracian Gulf."

"The Molotti also were Epirotæ, and were subjects of Pyrrhus Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, and of his descendants, who were Thessalians. The rest were governed by native princes. Some tribes were continually endeavouring to obtain the mastery over the others, but all were finally subdued by the Macedonians, except a few situated above the Ionian Gulf."

Strabo, 7.7.1

"Pyrrhus, the king of Epirus, had a particularly high opinion of his powers because he was deemed by foreign nations a match for the Romans; and he believed that it would be opportune to assist the fugitives who had taken refuge with him, especially as they were Greeks, and at the same time so forestall the Romans with some plausible excuse before he should suffer injury at their hands. For so careful was he about his good reputation that though he had long had his eye on Sicily and had been considering how he could overthrow the power of the Romans, he shrank from taking the initiative in hostilities against them, when no wrong had been done him."

Cassius Dio, Book 9.4

[Ptolemy]

the western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus, and parts of Pelagonia;

"In the shadow of Olympus.." By Eugene Borza, page 74

[Ptolemy]

Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, was himself simply a military adventurer. He was none the less a soldier of fortune that he traced back his pedigree to Aeacus and Achilles

He [Pyrrhus] has been compared to Alexander of Macedonia; and certainly the idea of founding a Hellenic empire of the west--which would have had as its core Epirus, Magna Graecia, and Sicily, would have commanded both the Italian seas, and would have reduced Rome and Carthage to the rank of barbarian peoples bordering on the Hellenistic state-system,like the Celts and the Indians--was analogous in greatness and boldness to the idea which led the Macedonian king over the Hellespont.


he was the first Greek that met the Romans in battle. With him began those direct relations between Rome and Hellas, on which the whole subsequent development of ancient, and an essential part of modern, civilization are based.



this struggle between Rome and Hellenism was first fought out in the battles between Pyrrhus and the Roman generals;

But while the Greeks were beaten in the battlefield as well as in the senate-hall, their superiority was none the less decided on every other field of rivalry than that of politics; and these very struggles already betokened that the victory of Rome over the Hellenes would be different from her victories over Gauls and Phoenicians, and that the charm of Aphrodite only begins to work when the lance is broken and the helmet and shield are laid aside.

Theodor Mommsen History of Rome, From the Abolition of the Monarchy in Rome to the Union of Italy, The Historical Position Of Pyrrhus

[Ptolemy]

That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was NOWHERE suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;

Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking.

"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew ,page 284.

[Ptolemy]

The Epirotes, who may fairly be considered as Greeks by blood, long maintained a rugged independence under native chiefs, who were little more than leaders in war.

A Manual of Greek Antiquities
Book by Percy Gardner, Frank Byron Jevons; Charles Scribner's Sons, 1895, page 8

[Cadmus]

The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the groupi

Ptolemy now the Dexari=Dessarete=Oessarete latter means coastal dwellers where would you place them? Dessaretia was the area of lake Lychnitidia in Roman times, could that specific area be the north-eastern border of Epirus...this would enhance and shed some light of the Enchelians as having a link with the Illyrians as well as the Epirotes since they were also neighbouring the Lyncestians..

[akritas]

.....

After the Mycenaean civilization declined, Epirus was the launching area of the [/URL]Dorian (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9032809/topic?idxStructId=169465&typeId=13) invasions (1100–1000 BC) of Greece. The region's original inhabitants were driven southward by the Dorians, and out of the ensuing migrations three main clusters of Greek-speaking tribes emerged in Epirus: the Thesproti of southwestern Epirus, the Molossi of central Epirus, and the Chaones of northwestern Epirus. They lived in clusters of small villages, in contrast to most other Greeks, who lived in or around city-states.

In the 5th century Epirus was still on the periphery of the Greek world. To the 5th-century historian Thucydides, the Epirotes were “barbarians.� The only Epirotes regarded as Greek were the Aeacidae, who were members of the Molossian royal house and claimed descent from Achilles. From about 370 BC on, the Aeacidae were able to expand the Molossian state by incorporating tribes from the rival groups in Epirus. The Aeacidae's efforts gained impetus from the marriage of Philip II of Macedon to their princess, Olympias. In 334, while Alexander the Great, son of Philip and Olympias, crossed into Asia, his uncle, the Molossian ruler Alexander, attacked southern Italy, where he was eventually checked by Rome and killed in battle in about 331. Upon Alexander the Molossian's death, the Epirote tribes formed a coalition on an equal basis but with the Molossian king in command of their military forces. The greatest Molossian king of this coalition was (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9032809/topic?idxStructId=6903&typeId=13)[U]Pyrrhus (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9032809/article-9062070/Pyrrhus) (319–272); he and his son Alexander II ruled as far south as Acarnania and to central Albania in the north. Pyrrhus' military adventures overstrained his state's military resources, but they also brought great prosperity to Epirus. He built a magnificent stone theatre at Dodona and a new suburb at Ambracia (now �rta), which he made his capital.

[Encyclopedia Britannica, edition 2007, abstract from Epirus]

[akritas]

Below is the dialect map of the prehistoric Greece (1000-2000 BC) by

Margalit Finkelberg(Greeks and Pre-Greeks, Gambridge, edition 2007).

For those that want the most recent works and those that belive Epirotans were Illyrians.

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/5076/pag132dialectmapofprehipa3.jpg

[olvios]

Latest finds indicate that macedonia and epirus spoke the same northwest greek dialect.The map is old and out dated.He should have included them in the book.Though i am not sure about the dating.There is a proper one here though no bilbiography
olvios300 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/)

Οι μυκηναικοι οικισμοι στην Μακεδονια αλλαζουν τα δεδομενα

[Ptolemy]

Some notes:

Oricos - Described as a Greek city by Apollodoros fr 300 and Ps-Skymnos 441.

Thesprotia - The most ancient Epirotic nation. According to Homer:

"Δεκάτη δε νυκτί μελαίνη Γαίη Θεσπρωτών πέλασε μέγα κύμα κυλίνδον ένθα με θεσπρωτών βασιλεύς εκομίσατο Φείδων"

In reality and as Herodotus also affirms, Thessalians were a branch of Thesprotians thus Thessalians and Epirotans were kinsmen. (VII.176, Strab IX.p.443)

was the Phocians who built it for fear of the Thessalians when these came from Thesprotia to dwell in the Aeolian land, the region which they now possess. Since the Thessalians were trying to subdue them, the Phocians made this their protection, and in their search for every means to keep the Thessalians from invading their country, they then turned the stream from the hot springs into the pass, so that it might be a watercourse.

[akritas]

Latest finds indicate that macedonia and epirus spoke the same northwest greek dialect.The map is old and out dated.He should have included them in the book.Though i am not sure about the dating.There is a proper one here though no bilbiography
olvios300 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/)

Οι μυκηναικοι οικισμοι στην Μακεδονια αλλαζουν τα δεδομενα
The map is new and updated. The writer following all the new archaelogical and linguistics methods and findings.

[olvios]

Yeah sorry i rushed in and forgot Caranos and the phrygians and that it refers to prehistoric greece

[akritas]

Republic of Molossia - Official Website (http://www.molossia.org/)
Republic of Molossia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Molossia)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[olvios]

The Republic of Molossia bears no relation of any kind to the ancient Greek nation of Molossia. Even they know molossians were greeks!

[Ptolemy]

CHAONES. and after Illyrians, Chaonians. And Chaonia has good harbours: and the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of Chaonia is a half of a day

The periplous of Pseudo-Skylax: transl. by Graham Shipley

Its clear according to Skylax periplous, Chaonians were not Illyrians.

[Ptolemy]

where it was fordable, and with the horse in several places, so that the Greeks, fearing to be surrounded, were obliged to retreat, and Pyrrhus, perceiving this and being much surprised, bade his foot
officers draw their men up in line of battle,

Epirotan Army of Pyrrhus a greek army.

while equal discouragement and terror prevailed among the Greeks, until Pyrrhus, understanding what had happened, rode about the army with his face bare, stretching out his hand to his soldiers, and telling them aloud it was he..

Again Epirotan Army of Pyrrhus a greek army.

and others brought him news out of Greece that Ptolemy, called Ceraunus, was slain in a fight, and his army cut in pieces by the Gauls

Ptolemy Ceraunus was slained in Macedonia from Gauls and from Macedonia the news came to Pyrrhus. Plutarch obviously considers Macedonia as part of Greece.

Plutarch's Lives - Pyrrhus Edited by A.H. Clough

[Flipper]

The periplous of Pseudo-Skylax: transl. by Graham Shipley

Its clear according to Skylax periplous, Chaonians were not Illyrians.

And ofcourse, in Orichia there's a Hellenic city called Orichos... :D

And, let's not forget that the name Photios is Chaionian...Have you ever thought about that most of the people you meet and are called Photis are from Epirus? ;)

[Istor]

Thessalians were a branch of Thesprotians

WOW !

Èåó(óáë)ßá + Çðåéñþôçò > Èåó(óáëï)çðåéñþôçò > Èåóéðåéñþôçò > Èåóðñþôçò > Èåóðñùôüò > Èåóðñùôßá !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

Ã�Ã* ç ëÃ�îç Èåóóáëßá åßÃ*áé óýÃ*èåôç (èåó-óáëßá) ôüôå ç ðáñáðÜÃ*ù åôõìïëïãßá åßÃ*áé ó÷åäüÃ* óßãïõñç!!

[olvios]

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/EPIRUS.jpg?t=1180697312
References
1. ^ Apollodorus, Library, 1.2.7 [1]
2. ^ Homer, Iliad, 18.35 [2]
3. ^ Hesiod, Theogony, 240 [3]
4. ^ Hyginus, Fabulae, Preface [4]
5. ^ Apollodorus, Library, 2.1.5 [5]
6. ^ Hyginus, Fabulae, 163 [6]
7. Parthenius, Love Stories, XXXII: The Story of Anthippe. [1]
8. Euripides. The Bacchae.

[Ptolemy]

After many fearful losses had been both sustained and inflicted Philippopolis was destroyed, and, unless our annals speak falsely, 100,000 men were slaughtered within its walls. Foreign enemies roved unrestrained over Epirus, and Thessaly, and the whole of Greece;


Ammianus Marcellinus, Roman History. London: Bohn (1862) Book 31. V pp. 575-623.

[Ptolemy]

XI. War was at the same time proclaimed against the Tarentines (who are still a people at the extremity of Italy), because they had offered violence to some Roman ambassadors. These people asked aid against the Romans of Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, who derived his origin from the family of Achilles

Eutropius, "Abridgment of Roman History" Book II

Thus the ambassador of Pyrrhus returned; and, when Pyrrhus asked him "what kind of a place he had found Rome to be," Cineas replied, that "he had seen a country of kings, for that all there were such, as Pyrrhus alone was thought to be in Epirus and the rest of Greece."

Eutropius, "Abridgment of Roman History" Book II

[Ptolemy]

and remembers to no purpose that it imposed the name of Aeacides upon its kings, certainly it would not have stopped otherwise than for the triumph of the Romans, to whom even Pyrrus himself, an offspring and the race of Achilles and bearing the name, overcome by arms made himself subject from the desire of meriting peace do that he might ask for pardon.

(Hegesippus BOOK V)

[Ptolemy]

I. But my own belief about it is this. If the Phoenicians did in fact carry away the sacred women and sell one in Libya and one in Hellas, then, in my opinion, the place where this woman was sold in what is now Hellas, but was formerly called Pelasgia, was Thesprotia; [2] and then, being a slave there, she established a shrine of Zeus under an oak that was growing there; for it was reasonable that, as she had been a handmaid of the temple of Zeus at Thebes , she would remember that temple in the land to which she had come. [3] After this, as soon as she understood the Greek language, she taught divination; and she said that her sister had been sold in Libya by the same Phoenicians who sold her

Herodotus 2.56

Translation: Herodotus verifies here Thesprotians were speaking Greek, as he visited Dodona in their territory and stated the first priestess which was a refugee from Egypt, learnt Greek among the Thesprotians.

[Teukros]

Didn't Plutarch somewhere mentioned epitots as Greeks?

[Ptolemy]

3 While Antiochus was at Chalcis at the beginning of the winter, Charops came to him as envoy on the part of the whole nation of Epirus, and Callistratus on that of the city of Elis. 2 The Epirots begged him not to involve them in the first place in a war with Rome, exposed as they were to Italy in front of all Greece.

Polybius [XX,3]

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

I would like to thanks you for your tireless efforts for Macedonia and Epirus. I think Epirus is also threatened. You and I do see things alike my friend.

[PAO123]

By the way, do you know where I can find all these quotes in Greek? Thanks.

[Nikas]

"For among the Bruttii are the Epizephyrian Locrians and the inhabitants of Croton and Thurii. But north of the gulf the first inhabitants are Greeks, called Epirotes, as far as the city of Epidamnus, which is situated on the sea. And adjoining this is the land of Precalis, beyond which is the territory called Dalmatia, all of which is counted as part of the western empire. And beyond that point is Liburnia,[81] and Istria, and the land of the Veneti extending to the city of Ravenna. These countries are situated on the sea in that region. But above them are the Siscii and Suevi (not those who are subjects of the Franks, but another group), who inhabit the interior. And beyond these are settled the Carnii and Norici. On the right of these dwell the Dacians and Pannonians, who hold a number of towns, including Singidunum[82] and Sirmium, and extend as far as the Ister River. Now these peoples north of the Ionian Gulf were ruled by the Goths at the beginning of this war, but beyond the city of Ravenna on the left of the river Po the country was inhabited by the Ligurians.[83] And to the north of them live the Albani in an exceedingly good land called Langovilla, and beyond these are the nations subject to the Franks, while the country to the west is held by the Gauls and after them the Spaniards. On the right of the Po are Aemilia[84] and the Tuscan peoples, which extend as far as the boundaries of Rome. So much, then, for this."

Procopius-The Gothic War, Book V, 80

Interestingly, not only are the Epirotes unequivocably described as Greeks, but the "Albani" are not mentioned geographically, nor ethnically, as being part of Illyria.

[Cadmus]

Nikas, do you believe that those Albani are the progenitors (ancestors) of the Albanians nowadays?

So the Albani came originally from Italian lands?

All the best.

[Nikas]

Hi Cadmus,

Very hard to say. "Alban-ia" in antiquity and the middle ages was geographically located in the Caucausus and also in Northern Europe I believe (or even "Alba" in Italy). What it is pretty for sure is, that these Albanians were not recorded as being in the Balkans prior to the 11th century, 11 centuries at the least after the Illyrians, who after 1,000 years of Roman-Byzantine rule must have been completely hellenized, as were the Thracians. Byzantine sources are completely absent of "Illyrians", although citizens of some repute are mentioned as being from "Illyria" to about the sixth century or so, basically until the Slavic invasions and occupation, after which point they seem to dissapear. Factor in also that the modern Albanians do not call themselves Albanians but Shiptari, and then it becomes nigh impossible to make the connection Illyrian-to-Albanian-to-Shiptar, or find this link in the sources. One also has to consider that modern Albanian fits into the Satem branch of Indo-European with many similarities to the Caucasian languages, and the water becomes even more muddy.

The only thing I believe for certain, is that it is far from certain that the modern Albanians are connected to the ancient Illyrians based on the evidence we currently have.

[Cadmus]

Hi Nikas!

I also believe that, and another thing is that the southern Albanians are the old Epirotes from the provinces Epirus Vetus, Epirus Nova and Praevalitana...

The old christian bishoptowns and the Epiruvian Despot in Phoinike in todays southern Albania show that a big part of modern Albania was Epirotic thus Greek...to look for Illyrians one might look further up north Albania perhaps even in Montenegro or Croatia...but what happened to the real Illyrians i really don't know...They remain a mysterie...

[Ptolemy]

Pyrrhus therefore went forward and pitched his camp in the plain between the cities of Pandosia and Heracleia. When he learned that the Romans were near and lay encamped on the further side of the river Siris, he rode up to the river to get a view of them; and when he had observed their discipline, the appointment of their watches, their order, and the general arrangement of their camp, he was amazed, 5 and said to the friend that was nearest him: "The discipline of these Barbarians is not barbarous; but the result will show us what it amounts to." He was now less confident of the issue, and determined to wait for his allies; but he stationed a guard on the bank of the river to check the Romans if, in the meantime, they should attempt to cross it. 6 The Romans, however, anxious to anticipate the coming of the forces which Pyrrhus had decided to await, attempted the passage, their infantry crossing the river by a ford, and their cavalry dashing through the water at many points, so that the Greeks on guard, fearing that they would be surrounded, withdrew

[Plut. Pyrrhus 16.4]

[Ptolemy]

For this reaon, and for no other, the Ionians too made twelve cities; for it would be foolishness to say that these are more truly Ionian or better born than the other Ionians; since not the least part of them are Abantes from Euboea, who are not Ionians even in name, and there are mingled with them Minyans of Orchomenus, Cadmeans, Dryopians, Phocian renegades from their nation, Molossians, Pelasgian Arcadians, Dorians of Epidaurus, and many other tribes;

So in 5th cent. Greek historiography Molossians are mentioned as one of the Greek people composing the Ionians of Asia Minor.

[Ptolemy]

If any Achaian is near who lives above the Ionian sea, he will not blame me, for i rely on my being their proxenos

7th Nemean Ode from Pindar

The "Achaians" here were probably the members of the Molossian royal household used in the same sense as the "Herakleidai".

[The Blood of Dorus]

Aristotle, Meteorologica, Book I, (written c.350 B.C.)

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.1.i.html

The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes.

[Flipper]

7th Nemean Ode from Pindar

The "Achaians" here were probably the members of the Molossian royal household used in the same sense as the "Herakleidai".

Add this one as well.

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=214220&bookid=224&region=2&subregion=5" (http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=214220&bookid=224&region=2&subregion=5)


τὸ κοινὸν
τῶν Ἀχαιῶν Μολοσσὸν
Μολοσσοῦ


Achean Molossians...I guess the Molossians themselves knew better what they were.

[Ptolemy]

For this reason, and for no other, the Ionians too made twelve cities; for it would be foolishness to say that these are more truly Ionian or better born than the other Ionians; since not the least part of them are Abantes from Euboea, who are not Ionians even in name, and there are mingled with them Minyans of Orchomenus, Cadmeans, Dryopians, Phocian renegades from their nation, Molossians, Pelasgian Arcadians, Dorians of Epidaurus, and many other tribes

[Herodotus 1.146.1]

So between the Greeks who migrated initially in Asia Minor and resulted to the Ionian Settlements there, we had also Molossians. Considering the early date it happened, its quite safe to say Molossians were Greeks, since it will be irrational to assume a group of non-Greek speaking people found theirselves among Greek migrating groups.

[boreans79]

[Herodotus 1.146.1]

So between the Greeks who migrated initially in Asia Minor and resulted to the Ionian Settlements there, we had also Molossians. Considering the early date it happened, its quite safe to say Molossians were Greeks, since it will be irrational to assume a group of non-Greek speaking people found theirselves among Greek migrating groups.

You are a good researcher Ptolemy. In my opinion you can handle a civil debate and this is what distinguish you from some other people here.

Lets return to your quote to discuss , I have to dissagre with you .

τούτων δὴ εἵνεκα καὶ οἱ Ἴωνες δυώδεκα πόλιας ἐποιήσαντο· ἐπεὶ ὥς γέ τι μᾶλλον οὗτοι Ἴωνες εἰσὶ τῶν ἄλλων Ἰώνων ἢ κάλλιόν τι γεγόνασι, μωρίη πολλὴ λέγειν· τῶν Ἄβαντες μὲν ἐξ Εὐβοίες εἰσὶ οὐκ ἐλαχίστη μοῖρα, τοῖσι Ἰωνίης μέτα οὐδὲ τοῦ οὐνόματος οὐδέν, Μινύαι δὲ Ὀρχομένιοί σφι ἀναμεμίχαται καὶ Καδμεῖοι καὶ Δρύοπες καὶ Φωκέες ἀποδάσμιοι καὶ Μολοσσοὶ καὶ Ἀρκάδες Πελασγοὶ καὶ Δωριέες Ἐπιδαύριοι, ἄλλα τε ἔθνεα πολλὰ ἀναμεμίχαται·

For this reason then the Ionians also made for themselves twelve cities; for at any rate to say that these are any more Ionians than the other Ionians, or have at all a nobler descent, is mere folly, considering that a large part of them are Abantians from Eubœa, who have no share even in the name of Ionia, and Minyai of Orchomenos have been mingled with them, and Cadmeians and Dryopians and Phokians who seceded from their native State and Molossians and Pelasgians of Arcadia and Dorians of Epidauros and many other races have been mingled with them;


Sometimes its true that ethnos is translated as tribe

but

Most of the time the correct translation of ethnos is RACE and the above translation is the proper one.

also, the last part: have been mingled with them , confirms that this migration was not a migration of one race alone.

[Andrew]

So then, in travelling this road from the region of Epidamnus and Apollonia, one has on the right the Epeirotic tribes whose coasts are washed by the Sicilian Sea and extend as far as the Ambracian Gulf,415 and, on the left, the mountains of Illyria

STRABO 7.7.323

1) So Egnatia separates Illyrians by Epeirotans

But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, 327at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar,451 although, they add, some speak both languages

STRABO 7.7.327

2) Macedonians and Epeirotans until Corcira spoke the same language and there were bilingual "Hellenized" Illyrians.

Titus Livius (Livy) Ab urbe condita (31.29.2) reminds us :

“Aetolos , Acarnanas , Macedonas , EIUSDEM LINGUAE HOMINES”
“Aetolians , Acarnanians , Macedonians , MEN OF THE SAME LANGUAGE”

3) So Macedonians , Epeirotans , Aetolians and Acarnanians are men of the same language...I wonder what language was that if not greek ;) !!

Also Herodotus in (6.126-127) says :

126. ...Then all those of the Hellenes who had pride either in themselves or in their high descent, came as wooers, and for them Cleisthenes had a running- course and a wrestling-place made and kept them expressly for their use.

127. From Italy came Smindyrides the son of Hippocrates of Sybaris, who of all men on earth reached the highest point of luxury (now Sybaris at this time was in the height of its prosperity), and Damasos of Siris, the son of that Amyris who was called the Wise; these came from Italy: from the Ionian gulf came Amphimnestos the son of Epistrophos of Epidamnos, this man from the Ionian gulf: from Aitolia came Males, the brother of that Titormos who surpassed all the Hellenes in strength and who fled from the presence of men to the furthest extremities of the Aitolian land: from Peloponnesus, Leokedes the son of Pheidon the despot of the Argives, that Pheidon who established for the Peloponnesians the measures which they use, and who went beyond all other Hellenes in wanton insolence, since he removed from their place the presidents of the games appointed by the Eleians and himself presided over the games at Olympia,--his son, I say, and Amiantos the son of Lycurgos an Arcadian from Trapezus, and Laphanes an Azanian from the city of Paios, son of that Euphorion who (according to the story told in Arcadia) received the Dioscuroi as guests in his house and from thenceforth was wont to entertain all men who came, and Onomastos the son of Agaios of Elis; these, I say, came from Peloponnesus itself: from Athens came Megacles the son of that Alcmaion who went to Crœsus, and besides him Hippocleides the son of Tisander, one who surpassed the other Athenians in wealth and in comeliness of form: from Eretria, which at that time was flourishing, came Lysanias, he alone from Eubœa: from Thessalia came Diactorides of Crannon, one of the family of the Scopadai: and from the Molossians, Alcon.

Again all the Hellenes ...among them Molossians , Aetolians ...sorry guys !!!

[boreans79]

1515
John Musachi:
Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty
The chronicle or memoir of John Musachi (Ital. Giovanni Musachi) constitutes the oldest substantial text written by an Albanian. Musachi, despot of Epirus, was of a noble, ruling family from the Myzeqe region of central Albania. He was forced to abandon his land and take flight to Italy when Albanian resistance to the Ottoman conquest collapsed and the country was occupied by the Turks. The prime objective in his chronicle was not to provide a history of his times, but simply to prove to his descendants that they were of an important, landowning family so that they did not forget their origins and property rights. While the chronicle is no work of great scholarship and may prove confusing to students of history, it is nonetheless an important source not only for late fifteenth-century Albania, but also for Albanian toponyms and the names of local Albanian rulers. Indeed it is significant as proof of the rise of the Albanians as a distinct ethnic group.
Appendixed to the chronicle, though not included here, is a text by John's son, Constantine Musachi, dated 1535, in which the latter states that his father "was buried in the large church of Francavilla in the country of Otranto in a marble grave where mass is conducted three times a week. On it is an inscription reading: Almighty Jesus, this is the grave of John Musachi, the son of Gjin the Despot, Lord of Epirus and of Myzeqe, who stemmed from the city of Byzantium and bore the double headed eagle as his emblem. To him was dedicated this wreath in the year of our lord 1510." For this reason, the following chronicle is traditionally dated 1510. A reference in the text to the Battle of Chaldiran in 1514 proves, however, that John Musachi cannot have died before 1515.


http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts/AH1515.html

I am leaving you with this brief chronicle, so that when God in his mercy should deign to return you to your homeland, you will at least know some details of your country and of your forefathers. From the little information I have, I would like to inform you of the names of your forefathers, who held sway and who were expelled from your land and country by the sultan. Alas, I cannot tell you anything of the first ruler in ancient times because the chronicles of this country have been lost, but I do wish to bring to light the little I know and what people have told me.
They say in fact that our dynasty stems from the city of Constantinople and came to rule over Epirus in Albania.
From the start, it is important that you learn our family name, and what the reason was that we are called Molosachi. You should know that our family name comes from the land of the Molossi, known as such since ancient times. We were rulers of that land and thus they called us. The word Molosachi was then corrupted into Musachi.
You should also know that the emblem of our dynasty since ancient times has been a flowing fountain which flows in two streams, one on each side.
This is the fountain of Epirus about which many authors have written that it extinguishes a lit torch and lights an extinguished torch. Later, we also had a two headed eagle crowned with a star in the middle, and as you know, we have cherished this fountain ever since that time for undertakings and ceremonies.
These arms of ours are ancient, and both the arms and the family name come from that country.
The emblem of your mother's dynasty is a white eagle. She comes from the Dukagjini family, a noble dynasty, so do not forget where you come from.
I can confirm to you that Andrew Molosachi or Musachi was the sebaston cratos and ruler of Epirus, which in Albanian is called pylloria. He ruled all of Myzeqe and other districts.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/graf/images/AH1515_gr.jpg

This Myzeqe is the country of the Molossi and was thus named after them. We have been the rulers of that country from ancient times to the present day and took on the family name Molosachi, but the word Molossia was corrupted and is pronounced Mosachia and in Albanian it is called Myzeqe. This Molossia is in actual fact Epirus, as was mentioned above. It is a part of the whole land to be described below, which today is part of Epirus as far as I remember.

[boreans79]

[
The emblem of your mother's dynasty is a white eagle. She comes from the Dukagjini family, a noble dynasty, so do not forget where you come from.
I can confirm to you that Andrew Molosachi or Musachi was the sebaston cratos and ruler of Epirus, which in Albanian is called pylloria. He ruled all of Myzeqe and other districts.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/graf/images/AH1515_gr.jpg

This Myzeqe is the country of the Molossi and was thus named after them. We have been the rulers of that country from ancient times to the present day and took on the family name Molosachi, but the word Molossia was corrupted and is pronounced Mosachia and in Albanian it is called Myzeqe. This Molossia is in actual fact Epirus, as was mentioned above. It is a part of the whole land to be described below, which today is part of Epirus as far as I remember.

BYLLO--nes~~PYLLO--ria

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8964/wardft5.gif

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1121/pseudoskylax1gd0.png

[Andrew]

The only thing that I have to add is about your correlation between Hyllos and Illyrians.

Don't forget that before the iotakism greek "y" was pronounced like modern day "ou" ..so I doubt the correlation among Ill"ou"rians and H"ou"llos.

[boreans79]

The only thing that I have to add is about your correlation between Hyllos and Illyrians.

Don't forget that before the iotakism greek "y" was pronounced like modern day "ou" ..so I doubt the correlation among Ill"ou"rians and H"ou"llos.

No its not.

The three main DORIAN tribes
Ὑλλέας καὶ Παμφύλους καὶ Δυμανάτας,
Hylleis, Pamphyloi, and Dymanatai

In the old Attic alphabet Η or heta represented the h-sound. In the Ionic alphabet, the same symbol represented a vowel, eta, because the Ionic dialect had lost aspirations and had no need for heta. When the Ionic alphabet was adopted in Athens (2nd half of the 5th cent. B.C.E.), the h-sound was no longer represented in writing. Subsequently, the rough breathing sign was created by using of the left half of Η to indicate [h], and the smooth breathing sign was created as its mirror image to represent the lack of the h-sound.

examples

ἥλιος ----------------sun
is pronounced helios

And this valid only for the Greek,while in Albanian is

YLL------------star
PYLL-----------forest
which is completely the same with the ancient greek word for forest.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2376/forestrm2.gif

Dont forget HYLLOI, PYLLOI, and BYLLOI is the same people and name(see above).

[Andrew]

No its not.

The three main DORIAN tribes
Ὑλλέας καὶ Παμφύλους καὶ Δυμανάτας,
Hylleis, Pamphyloi, and Dymanatai

In the old Attic alphabet Η or heta represented the h-sound. In the Ionic alphabet, the same symbol represented a vowel, eta, because the Ionic dialect had lost aspirations and had no need for heta. When the Ionic alphabet was adopted in Athens (2nd half of the 5th cent. B.C.E.), the h-sound was no longer represented in writing. Subsequently, the rough breathing sign was created by using of the left half of Η to indicate [h], and the smooth breathing sign was created as its mirror image to represent the lack of the h-sound.

examples

ἥλιος ----------------sun
is pronounced helios

And this valid only for the Greek,while in Albanian is

YLL------------star
PYLL-----------forest
which is completely the same with the ancient greek word for forest.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2376/forestrm2.gif

Dont forget HYLLOI, PYLLOI, and BYLLOI is the same people and name(see above).

There are similarities among all indoeuropean languages ..we all know that from the greek «φασκί/φάκελος» to the Inglish "basket" ..that doesn't prove that greeks are british ...it ONLY declaires their common IE ancestry , Centum IE ancestry if you like ..Isn't like this ..
..Same thing about the world "water"
GREEK ύδωρ
ENGLISH water
SLAV voda
PHRYGIC vedy
GERMAN wasser

you want another example:

GREEK θυγατήρ / πατήρ / ματήρ
INGLISH daughter / father / mother

Again common IE ancestry ...nothing else

ooo about the 3 Dorian tribes ..I know them ..Υλλείς are only "foresters" in Greek "ύλη" .It is often in some continetnal greek dialects to dupricate k,l,r

Check out the name Perdikkas = Peri Dikaios = very just

[boreans79]

There are similarities among all indoeuropean languages ..we all know that from the greek «φασκί/φάκελος» to the Inglish "basket" ..that doesn't prove that greeks are british ...it ONLY declaires their common IE ancestry , Centum IE ancestry if you like ..Isn't like this ..
..Same thing about the world "water"
GREEK ύδωρ
ENGLISH water
SLAV voda
PHRYGIC vedy
GERMAN wasser

you want another example:

GREEK θυγατήρ / πατήρ / ματήρ
INGLISH daughter / father / mother

Again common IE ancestry ...nothing else

ooo about the 3 Dorian tribes ..I know them ..Υλλείς are only "foresters" in Greek "ύλη" .It is often in some continetnal greek dialects to dupricate k,l,r

Check out the name Perdikkas = Peri Dikaios = very just

In Classical Greek, it was pronounced like French u or German ü, or like Albanian Y. But in ancient greek a great role plays the position of the vowel in the word and the following consonant. Also dont forget that ancient greek was a polytonic language and not a monotonic one like the demotiki so the mirror signs play a fondamental role in the so called melody of the language, meanwhile in modern greek the colour is totally absent.

[boreans79]

ooo about the 3 Dorian tribes ..I know them ..Υλλείς are only "foresters" in Greek "ύλη" .It is often in some continetnal greek dialects to dupricate k,l,r



I wouldnt bet it is forester nor oppose it. I have to say Ylleis is the plural of Yllos or Yllas. I would be curios to know which kind of noun declension it belongs the Attic one or the Omicron-Declension without the consonant steam, but I know for sure that the root is YLL doesnt matter the inflection which affect only the endings os and eis.

[Andrew]

In Classical Greek, it was pronounced like French u or German ü, or like Albanian Y. But in ancient greek a great role plays the position of the vowel in the word and the following consonant. Also dont forget that ancient greek was a polytonic language and not a monotonic one like the demotiki so the mirror signs play a fondamental role in the so called melody of the language, meanwhile in modern greek the colour is totally absent.

I know it's politonic man ..I don't want to spent my time by giving you the words in politonic ...
..and why do you consider Classic Greek apart of the Ancient one ..or you define Ancient like Archaic ??

[Andrew]

I wouldnt bet it is forester nor oppose it. I have to say Ylleis is the plural of Yllos or Yllas. I would be curios to know which kind of noun declension it belongs the Attic one or the Omicron-Declension without the consonant steam, but I know for sure that the root is YLL doesnt matter the inflection which affect only the endings os and eis.

I agree that Ylleis is the plural of Yllos ...and I'm not a glossologist.
My opinion is that in Mythology a tribe gets it's name by one person ...
...but it is more realistic if the tribe takes it's name by one of it's characteristics: location , habbits , all that .
That Ylleis for me means foresters ..has sense since I saw somewere that maybe also "Dorian" means forrester and not "holding the Dory (spear)" and I think that the connection was the PIE word for tree "dr" DoR , denDRon , TRee and that is was one of the caracterristics that separated Italians and Greeks (Arbor vs. denDRON) ...I don't know if that helps.

[olvios]

Greeks and Pre-Greeks: Aegean Prehistory and Greek Heroic Tradition Margalit Finkelberg,ISBN-10: 0521852161,2005,Page 133:"... which was spoken in West Thessaly (Thessaliotis), while Boeotian was in turn connected with Northwest Greek, which was spoken in Epirus. ..."

[chicagogeorge]

Cambridge on the Molossians, and other Epirote tribes...

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/7537/cmabridgeepirusna5.jpg

Cambridge on the Molossian's brother tribe.... the Chaones...

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8483/cambridgeonchaoneshx2.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

If anyone here wants to chime in and give this propagandist a good kolobaroma, join in on the fun with me!

YouTube - Tsamiko Thessalia

[chicagogeorge]

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3584/epirotepanhellenicuh8.jpg

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/5158/greekrealitiesey8.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

Polybios 9.37.7-39.7

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/3899/poybiousonepirotesdm9.jpg