Dropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit - HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub

[Makedonia25]

Everybody knows the propagandistic claim of the FYROM Slavs that, based on a fairly recent 'Scientific gene study', It was proven that - 1) Greeks had Ethiopian origin - and - 2) FYROM was genetically proven to be the descendents of the ancient Macedonians. In this thread we collapse this nationalistic theory, void of any scientific merit. Personally I am against in this kind of debate because the founder of this was the Nazi doctor Goebels and as you know all the worlds suffer because of those people.

Paleoanthropology and archaeology is another issue however. Such sciences are in fact our best weapon against the theories of the 1930/40s and against the racsist internet fraud of the Skopjians at maknews.

Ill start with the response to the contraversial Gene study from three worldwide recognized Scientific institutes:


Dropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit
Nature 415, 115 (10 January 2002); doi:10.1038/415115b

Sir – Even though the controversial withdrawal of a paper on the genetic relatedness of Palestinians and Jews by the journal Human Immunology (see Nature 414, 382; 2001 (http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaCitation.taf?id=N1&jtl=NATURE&cd_year=2001&vid=414&ppf=382)) is a minor episode compared with the tragedies caused by ethnic/religious conflicts over past decades, the issues involved are worth revisiting.

The stated purpose of the paper by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. was to "examine the genetic relationships between the Palestinians and their neighbours (particularly the Jews) in order to: (1) discover the Palestinian origins, and (2) explain the historic basis of the present ... conflict between Palestinians and other Muslim countries with Israelite Jews".
They conclude: "Jews and Palestinians share a very similar HLA genetic pool that supports a common ancient Canaanite origin. Therefore, the origin of the long-lasting Jewish–Palestinian hostility is the fight for land in ancient times."

It is difficult to believe that knowledge of genes may help to explain the present conflict. Although population genetics can address issues of relatedness of populations, mating patterns, migrations and so on, obviously it cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people.

Our primary concern, however, is that the authors might be perceived to have been discriminated against for political, as opposed to legitimate scientific, reasons.

Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.

The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.

We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.

Neil Risch
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA

Alberto Piazza
Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Torino, Via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italy

L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA


http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v415/n6868/full/415115b_r.html




Now lets examine the contraversial 'Genetics paper' which keeps popping up on internet forums, posted by young skopjian enthusiasts. heres the link, hosted by a FYROM website:

HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks (http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:m9NfGPnPs-MJ:www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid%3Dti.2001.pdf+subsaharan+ origin+of+greeks&hl=el&gl=gr&ct=clnk&cd=1)



The names of the scientists who took part in the paper can be seen below. Surely its a coincidence that, of study which killed two birds with one stone by sensationally discovering the Sub-saharan genetic origin of the Greeks and that the population of FYROM is the descendents of the ancient Macedonians, 3 of the esteemed scientists are in fact natives of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia:

A. Arnaiz-Villena
K. Dimitroski
J. Moscoso
E. Gómez-Casado
C. Silvera-Redondo
P. Varela
M. Blagoevska
V. Zdravkovska



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Its disgraceful that we even have to defend ourselves against such racist fraud. And as Ive just demonstrated it is exactly that; blatant fraud.

[admin]

re "scientific" paper....

I have been invited by Tissue Antigens to submit an editorial against his paper that states Greeks are Ethiopians... I will no doubt submit one soon... :rolleyes: I am looking for some help although I have an MSc and almost finished the PhD, I need experts from the Genetics field to help me tear apart further... :lol: his paper...

this was my response after a length battle:

Following the email below, I would like to invite you to send a letter to the editor about the parts of the article's scientific argument with which you might disagree. Subject to approval by the editor we would consider showing this letter to Dr Arnaiz-Villena and seek his response. We would also consider publishing your letter and Dr Arnaiz-Villena's response conjointly in the interest of balanced scientific debate.
Kind regards,

Preliminary Observations that I included in the email:
-Bias due to processing (at Skopje FYROM no doubt :lol:)
-small sample number
-HLA genes used only no other genes examined
-poor reproducibility between papers
-historical and political comments were included in this "science" paper

Overall a VERY POOR "science" paper which will be commented on shortly

[Makedonia25]

Ela, it seems that we have a lot in common... I'm currently doing my PhD in Analytical Chemistry, I havent done a MSc though, because if you go well enough in your BSc (Honours) they let you do your PhD straight off (in Australia that is)...

And yes, it is probably the worst paper ever published...

Cheers :)

[akritas]

I never believed that in order to proove your ethnicity must do DNA test. But I have to follow the mainstream of our era.
I believed in paleontropology because archaelogy also accepted this. Besides the Alinei essays follow this way and the connections.

[Ptolemy]

In numerous recent studies, the mitochondrial DNA of Greeks was examined and was found to be predominantly Caucasoid with only infrequent presence of "erratic" sequences from non-Caucasoid sources. Mitochondrial DNA ("mtDNA") is inherited from one's mother and is thus a good way to establish the maternal ancestry of a population.

The most comprehensive European-wide study of mtDNA is [1] in which 125 Greeks were sampled among thousands of Europeans. The Greeks and the Albanians appear in the "Mediterranean-East" category of the study. Greeks tested belonged overwhelmingly to the Caucasoid-specific haplogroups ("Seven Daughters of Eve" popularized by Bryan Sykes' book).

The "erratic" sequences include a Sub-Saharan African (L1a) sequence, which was derived from the Albanian part of the sample [2]. The other two sequences non-attributed to a European founder are members of haplogroups prevalent in Asia, M and D. Thus, the total percentage of erratics in the Greek sample was 1.6%. The Greeks, like most Europeans are fairly pure in terms of their maternal ancestry.

It is sometimes argued that the Greeks absorbed large numbers of Negro slaves or immigrants. There is no evidence of such an event in Greek mtDNA. If it ever took place, it was so limited in scope that not a single sequence in a total of 125 could be found.

The number of non-European sequences in the rest of Europe is also small, while in the Near East it is about 5%, only slightly larger. One can easily verify that Sub-Saharan African admixture (L sequences) has been detected in Scandinavia (Sweden, Norway and Iceland - 0.6%), Southeastern Europe (Bulgaria/Romania - 0.5%), Central Mediterranean (Italy and Sardinia - 1.7%; mostly in Sardinia), the Mediterranean West (Spain and Portugal - 3.7%), North Central Europe (Poles, Czechs, Germans, Danes - 0.9%), North Western Europe (Britain, Ireland and France - 0.4%). In another recent study [3] on Norwegians, an L2 Sub-Saharan African sequence was found in the sample of 74 Norwegians (1.4% Sub-Saharan admixture). Finally [4] showed 0.5% to 1.2% introgression of Sub-Saharan African genes into the European American gene pool.

The main conclusion to be drawn from these studies, is that Caucasoids of European descent have negligible traces of non-Caucasoid maternal admixture. Sub-Saharan African traces of such ancestry are found at levels of about 1% in many populations. But not in Greeks(a).


References
1) Richards et al., Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. American Journal of Human Genetics, 67, 1251-1276. Online paper and supplementary data in Vincent Macaulay's home page.
2) Michele Belledi et al., Maternal and paternal lineages in Albania and the genetic structure of Indo-European populations, European Journal of Human Genetics, 8, 480 - 486 (01 Jul 2000)
3) Giuseppe Passarino et al., Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms, European Journal of Human Genetics10, 521 - 529 (23 Aug 2002)
4) Esteban J. Parra et al., Estimating African American Admixture Proportions by Use of Population-Specific Alleles, Am. J. Hum. Genet., 63:1839-1851, 1998

[admin]

Ela, it seems that we have a lot in common... I'm currently doing my PhD in Analytical Chemistry, I havent done a MSc though, because if you go well enough in your BSc (Honours) they let you do your PhD straight off (in Australia that is)...

And yes, it is probably the worst paper ever published...

Cheers :)

Hey I did my MSc (2 years) in the same lab at UofT Sick Children's Hospital and have stayed to finish the Ph.D (21/2 years should be done this summer...(

I am working on Molecular Biology of Diabetes and Cardiovascular disease... here they are starting to let you go to PhD straight though with 5 years I get both so its a good deal! :laugh: as for that paper I haven't got a response yet....we will see maybe you can help though I am hoping to get Genomics experts in the field to participate...

[akritas]

Greek Y-chromosomes

The most comprehensive study of Y-chromosomal diversity in Europe thus far is Rosser et al., [1]. The human Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. One can thus study one half of a population's ancestry (along the paternal line) by studying the Y-chromosome. Greek Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9, HG21 and HG26. None of the 35 Greek Y chromosomes are of non-Caucasoid origin.

A second Y-chromosome study including Greeks have also shown similar results. Helgason et al., [2] reports one HG16 sequence of North Eurasian provenance in a sample of 42 Greeks (at least 97.6% Caucasoid). To put this in perspective, eight HG16 chromosomes occur in 110 Swedes (at least 92.7% Caucasoid) and three HG16 sequences in 112 Norwegians (at least 97.3% Caucasoid) were also found. HG16 is shared by many populations ranging from Europe to Mongolia. Its origin has been placed by [7] in the Eastern range of its current geographical distribution.

A third Y-chromosome study, by Malaspina et al., [3] which included a sample of 28 continental and 83 Cretan Greeks (total sample size of 111) found no evidence of the presence of non-Caucasoid Y chromosomes in Greeks.

A fourth Y-chromosome study, by Semino et al., [4] included 76 Greeks and 20 Macedonian Greeks. One Eu6 lineage, corresponding to HG10/HG36 [5] is probably of East Asian origin. One Eu17 lineage corresponds to HG 28 which is frequent in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent [6]. In total, admixture of 2.1% is detected (if we label HG 28 as non-Caucasoid).
A fifth Y-chromosome study, by Weale et al., [8] included 132 Greek students from Athens. The same haplogroups found in [1] were detected in this study. No non-Caucasoid chromosomes were found.

The most recent and comprehensive study of Greek Y-chromosomes, by Di Giacomo et al., [9] included 154 individuals from continental Greece and 212 from Crete, Lesvos and Chios. In total, Greeks from thirteen separate locations were examined, thus giving the most complete picture of variation so far. A single haplogroup A chromosome was found (in Lesvos) which is usually found in Africa. The remainder belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations.

A newer study by Semino et al. [10] has studied two samples of Greeks of size 84 and 59 (Macedonian Greeks). The focus was on two specific haplogroups E and J which are frequent in the Mediterranean region and can be used to detect population movements between Europe, Africa and the Near East. 2.4% of Greeks belong in haplogroup E-M123 and 21.4% in E-M78. Clades of E prevalent in Northern or Sub-Saharan Africa were not found. According to Cruciani et al. [11] most Greeks and other Balkan people belong to a specific cluster a within haplogroup E-M78 that is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan area. E-M123 and its daughter haplogroup E-M34 originated in the Near East in prehistoric times. As for haplogroup J, most Greeks (22.8% Greeks/14.3% Macedonian Greeks) belong to J-M172 and its subclades which is associated with Neolithic population movements. Only 1.8%/2.2% of Macedonian Greeks/Greeks belonged to haplogroup J-M267 which could potentially (althought not certainly) reflect more recent Near Eastern admixture.

Thus, at present, in a total of seven studies, in which 925 Greek males were tested, one HG16, one HG28, one HG10/HG36, and one haplogroup A chromosomes have been found, for a total of 0.4% possible non-Caucasoid contribution to the modern Greek male gene pool.

Additionally, the latest studies [9, 10] with a more refined version of the Y chromosome phylogeny indicate that influences from the Near East and North Africa in historical times are unlikely (perhaps in the order of ~2%). Additionally, Y chromosome haplogroup R1a which is very frequent in Slavic populations (>50%) is found in only around 9.8% of Greeks, and is also found at comparable frequencies further East (10.8% in Iraq; Al-Zahery et al. [12]) indicating that its presence in Greece need not be associated with medieval intrusions by Slavic speakers. The emerging picture of Y chromosome variation in Greece indicates genetic continuity, with slight influences from neighboring Caucasoid regions and virtually no influence from non-Caucasoids.

Flores et al. [13] have compiled haplogroup and sub-haplogroup data from three of the afore-mentioned studies which included Greek samples [4, 9, 10]. The total sample size of this meta-analysis is 442. An error has resulted in the false inclusion of 0.2% frequency of haplogroup B which was not reported in the original sources (A.M. Gonzαlez, personal communication).

Future studies with larger samples and more detailed founder analyses will allow us to obtain a better pictures of Y-chromosome variation in Greece, Europe and the world at large. At present, it appears that modern Europeans share many of the haplogroups, while there is also geographic structure in the distribution. With the exception of the Northeast corner of Europe, all other European populations have very small traces of extra-Caucasoid genetic input(a).

source:
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/greeknry/

[akritas]

Greek mtDNA


In numerous recent studies, the mitochondrial DNA of Greeks was examined and was found to be predominantly Caucasoid with only infrequent presence of "erratic" sequences from non-Caucasoid sources. Mitochondrial DNA ("mtDNA") is inherited from one's mother and is thus a good way to establish the maternal ancestry of a population.
The most comprehensive European-wide study of mtDNA is [1] in which 125 Greeks were sampled among thousands of Europeans. The Greeks and the Albanians appear in the "Mediterranean-East" category of the study. Greeks tested belonged overwhelmingly to the Caucasoid-specific haplogroups ("Seven Daughters of Eve" popularized by Bryan Sykes' book (http://www.oxfordancestors.com/daughters.html)).

The "erratic" sequences include a Sub-Saharan African (L1a) sequence, which was derived from the Albanian part of the sample [2]. The other two sequences non-attributed to a European founder are members of haplogroups prevalent in Asia, M and D. Thus, the total percentage of erratics in the Greek sample was 1.6%. The Greeks, like most Europeans are fairly pure in terms of their maternal ancestry.

It is sometimes argued that the Greeks absorbed large numbers of Negro slaves or immigrants. There is no evidence of such an event in Greek mtDNA. If it ever took place, it was so limited in scope that not a single sequence in a total of 125 could be found.

The number of non-European sequences in the rest of Europe is also small, while in the Near East it is about 5%, only slightly larger. One can easily verify that Sub-Saharan African admixture (L sequences) has been detected in Scandinavia (Sweden, Norway and Iceland - 0.6%), Southeastern Europe (Bulgaria/Romania - 0.5%), Central Mediterranean (Italy and Sardinia - 1.7%; mostly in Sardinia), the Mediterranean West (Spain and Portugal - 3.7%), North Central Europe (Poles, Czechs, Germans, Danes - 0.9%), North Western Europe (Britain, Ireland and France - 0.4%). In another recent study [3] on Norwegians, an L2 Sub-Saharan African sequence was found in the sample of 74 Norwegians (1.4% Sub-Saharan admixture). Finally [4] showed 0.5% to 1.2% introgression of Sub-Saharan African genes into the European American gene pool.
The main conclusion to be drawn from these studies, is that Caucasoids of European descent have negligible traces of non-Caucasoid maternal admixture. Sub-Saharan African traces of such ancestry are found at levels of about 1% in many populations. But not in Greeks(a).

source:
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/greekmtdna/

[akritas]

Morphological Types of Greeks


J. Lawrence Angel sorted Greek skeletal tendencies into six arbitrary morphological types, including several sub-varieties. These were not “races,� but rather [1]: “Types are entirely aribitrary creations from sorting of individuals. Genetically determined traits will recombine and re-form in each new generation largely at random so that types cannot express these new individualities adequately, only schematically. At best they give a preliminary overview of change.�

Angel studied skeletal material from the Paleolithic to modern times, and participated in examinations of skeletal material throughout the East Mediterranean. With respect to Greece, he found that the morphological types already established in the third millennium BC, if not before that, persisted in all subsequent ages. Thus, he emphasized the racial continuity of Greeks, stating epigrammatically [2]: “Racial continuity in Greece is striking.�


Angel, by an examination of ancient Greek burials expressly rejected the hypothesis that a genetically distinct isolated caste was responsible for Hellenic achievement [3]: “Both evidence and speculation contradict Nilsson's hypothesis that Graeco-Roman decline resulted from production of vacillating individuals by unlimited bastardizing and from elimination of a racially pure upper class by lowered birthrate, after this capable group inbred during the Geometric period had created Classic Greek culture!�


source:
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/greekmorphological/

[akritas]

THE ORIGIN OF THE GREEKS BY ARIS N. POULIANOS


Four successive editions, constantly enriched with new data, are edited concerning the Anthropological - Ethnogenetic study of the Greek population. The basis of this work is Aris N. Poulianos dissertation, which took place in the University of Moscow, under the supervision of the famous professor of Anthropology F. G. Debetz. The research was based on the study of 70 human characteristics (p. ex. body height, width of face, skin colour, shape of eyes etc.) of about 3000 Greek emigrants (after 1949 civil war) in the f. Soviet Union from different Hellenic areas. The statistical elaboration of these characteristics in combination with their geographical distribution demonstrated mathematically (because of their low dispersion) the incessant biological continuity of the Greeks all through the historic and prehistoric epochs, which refer at least to the Mesolithic and Upper Palaeolithic periods (15.000-30.000 years). This historical continuity is also proved by the comparison of measurements of the contemporary inhabitants with those of the ancient skulls of Greece, which statistically show no differences. Despite the occasional influences and limited migrations of populations, the anthropological research has shown that the population of Greece is basically native and that the contemporary Greeks are descendants of the ancient peoples who resided in the Greek peninsula. The same study indicated that the Albanian-speaking, Slav-speaking (Monte Negro included) as well as Valaches (Vlachi) of the greater Macedonian region are in their majority also autochthonous and therefore the influences from abroad mainly concerns the adoption of the chronologically younger languages, which are in use today.

The interest of the Press concerning the "Origin of the Greeks" is indicatively quoted in the following publications:

Avgi, 6-1-1962: “Over 150 scientists of the University and the Academy of Moscow have fully agreed with the scientific views of Mr. Aris. Poulianos, underlining the seriousness of the research, and without sparing their expressions, they spoke with praising words about him. Dr S. A. Tocarev, professor of ethnography in the University of Moscow and head of the Department of Ethnography regarding the peoples of Europe at the Institute of Ethnography of the Moscow Academy of Sciences, stated the following:
Aris Poulianos work presents an exceptional interest for the ethnographic science. The huge anthropological material of Greeks, which is concentrated and statistically elaborated, introduces for the first time new scientific sources for the study of a problem of basic importance, as is the problem of the origin of the Greek people. So far, concerning same issue it was generally accepted in science that contemporary Greeks historically have very few common elements with the ancient Greeks founders of the ancient civilization, and that contemporary Greeks in their greatest part represent descendants of Slavs, Albanians and other peoples who migrated in Greece and blended with the Greeks of the Byzantine era. Contrary, the writer of the present study, convincingly and based on analogous material, showed that whatever the influence of Slavs and other peoples who came in contact with the Greeks was, the people of modern Greece is basically descendant of the ancient population of the Balkans and the Aegean islands.

The worldwide famous anthropologist of Moscow University Dr I. I. Roginski notes that in the southern part of the Balkans a wide border between the Dinaric and the front Asian anthropological types is located. Therefore, in this area some of the general problems of the classification of the European and front Asian populations may be ascertained.

It must be also noted that by this work, the critique of the racist fabrications, regarding the genesis of the ancient Greek civilization, is found. “(Note: meaning the racist theories supporting that contemporary Greeks are not descendents from the ancient and this is the reason why their civilization today falls short compared to that of the developed countries. On the contrary, besides the groundless comparison – if for instance the traditions would be taken into account – the scientific verification regarding the biological continuity of Greeks once more proves that the socio-historical and geographical conditions are the main factors ruling the people’s cultural level.)�.


“The director of the Anthropological department of the Academy Ethnographic Institute in Moscow, Dr M. G. Levin added: ...It may seem paradox that many European peoples have been studied less than the peoples from Australia, Melanesia and other remote countries, Greece being one of the lesser examined ...A. N. Poulianos work completes this missing knowledge. The writer is fully aware of the methodology of the anthropological researches, has strictly kept all the necessary terms and paid suitable attention.


The director of the Anthropological Institute and Moscow Anthropological Museum Dr B. P. Yiakimov stated: " My own view is that Mr A. N. Poulianos work represents the most perfect recapitulation regarding the Anthropology of Greeks."


From the other side of Atlantic, in USA, the director of the Smithsonian Institute, G.L. Angel, in a book review of “The origins of the Greeks� at the American Journal of Physical Anthropology (No 22, v. 5, 1964, p. 343) writes: Aris Poulianos… correctly verifies that there is a full genetic continuity from ancient to contemporary times.


In the newspaper "NEA" of 25-1-1962, it is mentioned that: “The scientific study of A. N. Poulianos refutes the dogmatic theory of the Greek hater, German historian Fallmerayer, who lived from 1790 to 1861, the time of the Greek fight for independence. Him (Fallmerayer) altogether dogmatically, that is without prior anthropological research - and therefore self-evidently anti-scientifically - tried to support the theory that Greeks are mainly Slavs. The researcher (A. Poulianos) ends by mentioning that the anthropological study, with the necessary historical and linguistic data, is necessary for the solution of ethnogenetic problems.

The present is the reflection of the past and in this lays its historical value. If the past helps us understand the present, the present helps us meditate on the future.

more in:
http://www.aee.gr/english/4greeks_origin/greeks_origin.html

[Spartan]

It seems the Neo-nazis at stormfront.org have been quick to jump on the bandwagon of this racist and thoroughly discredited 'scientific paper'.

http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/greece_files/HLA%20Genes.pdf

Scary to think this was actually published!


Key words:
Macedonians; Greeks; Ethiopians;
Mediterraneans; Berbers; Sudan; Turks;
Egyptians; Sahel; Africa
Acknowledgments:
This work was supported in part by grants from
the Spanish Ministry of Education (PM95-57,
PM96-21 and PM99-23) and the Madrid Regional
Government (06/70/97 and 8.3/14/98). We are
grateful to Alberto Garcia for his help with art
design work on the computer.
Received 6 October, revised,
accepted for publication 20 December 2000
Copyright c Munksgaard 2001
Tissue Antigens . ISSN 0001-2815
Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127
Printed in Denmark . All rights reserved
118
A. Arnaiz-Villena HLA genes in Macedonians and the
KA.. PDaimchitoroski sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
J. Moscoso
E. Go´mez-Casado
C. Silvera-Redondo
P. Varela
M. Blagoevska
V. Zdravkovska
J. Martı´nez-Laso
Abstract: HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic
of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ
allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time
determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly
with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining
dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The
following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the
‘‘older’’ Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North
Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians
and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically
close Greeks, who do not belong to the ‘‘older’’ Mediterranenan substratum,
3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian)
people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both
Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305,
*0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310.
Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan
groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster
with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and
correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might
have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement
of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.
The highly polymorphic HLA system has been validated as useful for
distinguishing and/or relating populations (and individuals) in many
research studies since the first International HLA Anthropology
Workshop (Evian, 1973) and in all the subsequent seven International
Workshops. HLA gene frequencies correlate with geographically related
populations. The existence or absence of gene flow among
neighbouring ethnic groups may be assessed with the study of HLA
frequencies and the corresponding genetic distances (1, 2).
Ancient Macedonians were among the peoples that lived between
northern Greece (Thessaly) and Thrace in the Balkans and
were considered by the classical Greeks as ‘‘non-Greek barbarians’’
that could not participate in the Greek Olympic Games (3). Hero-
Authors’ affiliations:


The rest can be viewed at the above site!

[Spartan]

More on the same study!

FROM the site:

http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/greece.htm

Part 8: GENETIC EVIDENCE OF RACIAL MIXING IN GREECE

Classical Grecian civilization came to a fall because of the large scale importation of racially alien slaves from northern and sub-Saharan Africa. Unsurprisingly, the genetic evidence bears out the historical record.

Caveat: It is important to bear in mind that these results do not imply that all modern Greeks are of mixed origin.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUB-SAHARAN GENES IN GREECE

The first major study of gene frequencies in Greece, Macedonia and Crete was completed in December 2000, titled "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks",and published by the journal "Tissue Antigens" that year.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract

Tissue Antigens February 2001, vol. 57, no. 2, pp. 118-127

HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks

A. Arnaiz-Villena; K. Dimitroski; A. Pacho; J. Moscoso; E. Go´mez-Casado; C. Silvera-Redondo; P. Varela; M. Blagoevska; V. Zdravkovska; J. Martý´nez-Laso

Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain.



HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.






Fig. 2. Correspondence analysis showing a global view of the relationship between Mediterraneans and sub-Saharan and Black African populations according to the HLA allele frequencies in three dimensions (bidimensional representation). HLA-DRBI allele frequencies data.





Fig. 3. Correspondence analysis showing a global view of the relationship among West Mediterraneans (green), East Mediterraneans (orange), Greeks and sub-Saharan populations (red) and Blacks (grey) according to HLA allele frequencies in three dimensions (bidimensional representation). HLA-DR and DQ (low resolution) allele frequencies data.

Table 5 shows the presence of these Greek alleles mainly in sub-Saharan populations from Ethiopia (Amhara, Oromo), Sudan (Nuba) and West Africa (Rimaibe, Fulani, Mossi).

It may be deduced from these data that sub-Saharans and Greeks share quasi-specific HLA-DRB1 alleles. The neighbor-joining tree (Fig. 1) and the correspondence analyses (Figs 2 and 3) confirm this Greek/sub-Saharan relatedness. The HLA-DRB1 genetic distances between Greeks and other Mediterraneans are shown in Table 6 and also support a sub-Saharan/Greek relatedness; genetic distances with HLA-DR and -DQ generic typings (not shown) give essentially the same results.

Our results show that Macedonians are related to other Mediterraneans and do not show a close relationship with Greeks; however they do with Cretans (Tables 3, 4, Figs 1–3). This supports the theory that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the Mycaenian Greeks (10) about 2000 B.C. Other possible explanation is that they might have shared a genetic background with the Greeks before an hypothetical admixture between Greeks and sub-Saharans might have occurred.

Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed (Tables 5, 6 and Figs 1–3) was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa (Burkina-Fasso). Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles (Table 5) is self-explanatory. The conclusion is that part of the Greek genetic pool may be sub-Saharan and that the admixture has occurred at an uncertain but ancient time.

Thus, it is hypothesized that there could have been a migration from southern Sahara which mixed with ancient Greeks to give rise to a part of the present day Greek genetic background. The admixture must have occurred in the Aegean Islands and Athens area at least.

Also, the time when admixture occurred could be after the overthrown of some of the Negroid Egyptian dynasties (Nubian or from other periods) or after undetermined natural catastrophes (i.e.: dryness).

Here are the Pictures from Figure1 and Figure2

[Spartan]

Here is another laughable finding on Greek Genetics!

From the same site as the above!:lamer:

MONGOLOID MARKER IN GREECE

A recent study of mtDNA in Greece revealed the presence of the HpaI morph 1 sequence, which is a Mongoloid marker, introduced either through slavery or the mixed race Ottoman occupation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7916320&dopt=Abstract



1: Hum Biol. 1994 Aug;66(4):601-11.
Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism in northern Greece.
Astrinidis A, Kouvatsi A.

Department of Genetics, Development, and Molecular Biology, School of Biology, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Greece.

The polymorphism of human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) was studied in 118 unrelated Greeks (from northern Greece) using total blood cell DNA and the restriction enzymes HpaI, BamHI, HaeII, MspI, AvaII, and HincII. One new morph was identified for MspI (named MspI morph 18Gr) and is the result of a mutation in a previously thought monomorphic site at 104 bp. HpaI morph 1 was detected for the first time in a European sample. Also, AvaII morph 13 was observed in Greece in a frequency higher (5.93%) than that found in any other population. Eighteen mtDNA types were identified, three of which are new [86-2 (1-3-1-4-9-2), 87-2 (2-3-1-1-13-2), and 88-2 (2-1-1-18Gr-1-2)] and can be derived from already known mtDNA types by single restriction site changes. Type 57-2 (2-3-1-4-13-2), which had been previously characterized as "Italian," was found with higher frequency (4.24%) in northern Greece. The calculation of genetic distances and chi-square values through Monte Carlo simulation shows that the Greek sample does not differ from the Italian sample.
PMID: 7916320 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Spartan]

From the same Stormfront Site!

AFRICAN BLOOD GROUPS IN GREECE

"As usual in the Mediterranean area CDe is high, and cDe, presumably from African admixture, reaches about 6 per cent." (p73)

Cyprus: ". . . the presence of over 5 per cent cDe suggests African immigration." (p73)
Source: Mourant AE, Kopéc AC, Domaniewska-Sobczak K. The distribution of the human blood groups and other polymorphisms. London, Oxford University Press, 1976.

[Spartan]

28% MIDDLE EASTERN HAPLOGROUP HG9 IN GREECE

According to a study conducted by LluÃ*s Quintana-Murci et. al.. and published in The American Journal of Human Genetics, (Volume 68, 2001, pages 537-542), the Middle Easter Haplogproup HG9 runs at 28% in Greece.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n2/002418/002418.html
Am. J. Hum. Genet., 68:537-542, 2001



Y-Chromosome Lineages Trace Diffusion of People and Languages in Southwestern Asia
LluÃ*s Quintana-Murci,1 Csilla Krausz,1 Tatiana Zerjal,2 S. Hamid Sayar,3 Michael F. Hammer,4 S. Qasim Mehdi,5 Qasim Ayub,5 Raheel Qamar,5 Aisha Mohyuddin,5 Uppala Radhakrishna,6 Mark A. Jobling,7 Chris Tyler-Smith,2 and Ken McElreavey1
. . .

HG 9, defined by the 12f2 deletion, is largely confined to caucasoid populations, with its highest frequencies being found in Middle Eastern populations.

In Iranian populations, HG 9 shows very high frequencies (30%60%). Populations from the southeastern Caspian region and the Zagros Mountains exhibit the highest frequencies so far observed (60%). High frequencies of HG 9 have been found throughout the Fertile Crescent region (Hammer et al. 2000): Palestinians, 51%; Lebanese, 46%; and Syrians, 57%. The incidences of HG 9 in Pakistan (18%) and northern India (19%) indicate a decreasing-frequency cline from Iran toward India.

Table 1
Frequency Distribution of HG 9 and HG 3 in Human Populations from Different Regions

To see the table go the the above mentioned site!

[akritas]

From the Book Races of Europe by Dr Carleton Coon



The Greeks

The title of this section is The Greeks, and not Greece, since from the mythical days of the Argonauts to the present, neither the peninsula of Hellas nor Ionia and the Aegean Islands have been large enough to hold the far-wandering Hellenes. Greek is a language and a civilization, the Greeks a people; the Greeks are the descendants of all the peoples who have adopted and retained that language and that civilization from classical times to the present. Some of these converts to Hellenicism were inhabitants of Asia Minor, others of Thrace and Byzantium, others of the lands bordering the Black Sea, especially the Crimea.

It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the Greek ethnic character. In classical times the Greeks included many kinds of people living in different places, as they do today. If one refers to the inhabitants of Attica during the sixth century, or to the Spartans of Leonidas, then the changes in these localities have probably not been nearly as great as that between the Germans of Tacitus and the living South Germans, to cite but a single example.

Heres a description of modern Greeks from Carleton Stevens Coons Races of Europe, Chapter XII, Section 14, The Greeks :
It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the Greek ethnic character.... The Greeks, in short, are a blend of racial types, of which two are most important: the Atlanto-Mediterranean and the Alpine. Dinaricism here is present, but not all pervading; true Alpines are commoner than complete Dinarics. The Nordic element is weak, as it probably has been since the days of Homer. The racial type to which Socrates belonged is today the most important (Alpine), while the Atlanto-Mediterranean, prominent in Greece since the Bronze Age, is still a major factor. It is my personal reaction to the living Greeks that their continuity with their ancestors of the ancient world is remarkable, rather than the opposite.

[Orphic_Hymn]

More on the same study!

FROM the site:

http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/greece.htm



Don't worry bout it....you've presented the article of the well known Nordicist named Arthur Kemp.. A very interesting individual ****edit***) that has managed by distorting any text he finds to present his drivel of a Nordic ancient Hellas in which 'dark haired' people, even brunets were originally non-existant...

Of course many posts presented by our beloved Arthur are trashed by the very same sources he allegedly uses. For example. In some of his arguments he uses pappers which quote “Semino et al. (2000). Ammerman and Cavalli-Sforza (1984)...
What he obviously INTENTIONALLY neglected to note is that the above papper clearly mentions :

“Semino et al. (2000) The genetic legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens in Extant Europeans”
“Eu9 and Eu10, the origin of these lineages has been estimated to be about 15,000 to 20,000 years ago”

and

“The expansion toward Europe is the most thoroughly studied (Ammerman and Cavalli-Sforza 1984) and began 9,000 YBP.”

So while there may be some admixture as these studies indicate.. speaking of mixture with 'slaves', the Hellinic penninsula being overrun by Nubians...etc is unacceptable...
Not to even mention that the mere suggestion of an ethnic identity and thus nationality some 9 - 20.000yrs ago, is simply rediculous..

Note that Dienekes Pontikos was a member of that forum and had trashed Arthur's arguments so many times that in an attempt to 'oust' him from the above mentioned forum, he was 'confined' to the 'opposing views' section..

A good read in the specific forum would be this topic with a list of articles by Dienekes among other authors :
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=166623


PS. Arnaiz-Villena isn't a genetist, he's a haimotologist. So whatever our beloved Bulgaro-Slavs to our North paid him to say, is of absolutely no value in the scientific world...

[MAKEDONELLHNAS]

Den xero an to ehetai dei auto to site, rixte mia matia, kainourgies hazomares. Leei oti oi skopianoi hrthan stin Europi 35,000 bc kai emeis 5,000 bc. An prosexte to M173 kai kanete klik stis fotografies apou tous anthropous, dihnei aftous kai leei Makedonia, sto 35,000 bc.

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

[akritas]

kane klik stis xronologies kai teskarise sto 5000 BC to proto-indoeuropean.
Anaferei tis aploomades M172 sthn perioxh thw Elladas.Ayth brisketai se olo ton pluthismo the NA Mesogeiou.
Genika pantos opos leei kai o Dienekes den yparxei sygekrimenh aploomada pou na exoun oi Skopianoi h opoidhpote laos.
Ean parathrhseis sto 10-15000 yparxei to 12f2.1 kai exei san anthropo Tourko !!!!
Sto 20000 aki sto M170 exei Boulgaro kai Tourko !!!
Ean theloun autoi na einai oi Cro-magnon me geia tous kai xara tous :laugh:

[Otto]

These are very poor studies. As I am an M.Sc and a Ph.D working in Molecular Biology, I will post my criticisms of these papers.

The first just to start it off is:

Arnaiz-Villena paper:

1) the samples and analysis were done in collaboration with Skopjian "scientists"... more like paid propaganda artists... hardly unbiased to say the least.

[akritas]

MACEDONHELLENAS
Go and Click the chronologies and go in the 5000 BC to proto-indoeuropean. It has reference to the harlogroups M172 in the region of the Greece.This group is spread in the all region. Generaly there is not any specefic harlogroup that make distriction betwwen the nations as Dienekes Pontikos said.

If you notice also in 10-15000 BC there is the 12f2.1 harlogroup. And has as people a Turk!!!!
Also in 20000 BC has the M170 and show as people a Bulgar and Turkish !!!

If the Scopians want to be the Cro-Magnon ansestors then Cheers!!!!

I think Otto will help us more as about this DNA link of the National Geographic.

With the Scopians must focus in the diffrences between our culture. We have Greek when then have Slavic (mixture with fiction).

[MAKEDONELLHNAS]

Euharisto Akritas.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Actually if you think of it.

I for one couldn't honestly care less about what this alleged paper suggests and if my ancestors came to the Balkans 10 or 15.000 yrs ago.
One thing is sure, we can easily connect Neolithic Hellas to Mycenean from there after its childsplay to indicate the continuation through geometric ..etc.

What I enjoy, is that yet another one of our ancestor's beliefs left to us in the form of myths could possibly be comming true.

We know that our ancestors left us the Myth of Io.
Having being transformed into a cow she was stung by an insect, went mad and wondered the world passing the Bosporos that received its name from here (βους + πορος = ox + passage). Today we know that the flooding of the straight took place approx. 5800BC. Could these be actual memories of relation with the people of the M.East ??

Or what about the Europe myth, an interesting connection is the existance again of a white ox.
Simple coincidence or could these 'myths' be nothing more than intermixing or memories of relations with part of our ancestors (7 or even 10.000yrs) ago???

[admin]

HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks

Destroyed:
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/index.php?title=HLA_genes_in_Macedonians_and_the_s ub-Saharan_origin_of_the_Greeks

I finally had time enough to deal with the load of crap produced by Arnaiz-Villena et al. 2001. I confirm the weaknesses and problems of this poor scientific paper through my analysis.

Summary:

Although it is a scientific paper, there are many political and historical interpretations which are made which have no relation to the data. This makes their polititcal intentions and bias VERY clear.
for example:
- Macedonians did not participate in the olympics
this is untrue

- Macedonians had a different language totally different from "Greek"
there was no "Greek" language shared by the wide variety of Greek tribes. Macedonians wrote, understood and spoke Greek. See Pella Katadesmos, Alexander dedication and other artifacts. Thats EVIDENCE there is no evidence of SLAVIC inscriptions or language from ancient times.

Furthermore, the analysis of the DNA samples by the Tissue Typing laboratory. Institute of Blood Transfusion, Skopje. Republic of "Macedonia" definitely adds a huge Bias to the study. Also, the fact that the samples were not analyzed BLINDLY (which is done in ALL professional studies), confirms that the study was performed unprofessionally and was motivated by political intentions and/or biases.

The data is quite weak and is based on only a small population average of 80 individuals from each population.

They "prove" that Cretans are genetically distant to Greeks and are MORE related to Slavic Skopjians and Jews than Greeks (mainland)!
that is ABSURD to say the least. its like saying Texans are more related to Australians than Americans....!!!
Basically proves their paper is for toilet roll usage....

[admin]

:banana::pumped::boohoo:

Down the crapper goes the "scientific" paper meant for toilet roll usage....

:shit:

[admin]

Also, i didnt mention what they should have did as CONTROLS.

A control CONFIRMS that your study is WORKING.

what they should have done is:

take 5 Greeks and compare them with 5 other Greeks

when you analyze the data, are these 10 Greeks closer to each other than any other population?

if so your analysis is at least working somewhat
if not, you have a BIG problem.....

this was not even attempted by the group....




Lastly, previous scientific work published by Arnaiz-Villena et al. was ridiculed by the world-renown journal Nature.
see
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/Dynapage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v415/n6868/full/415115b_fs.html

The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. :nono: It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. :lol:
Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.:lol::lol::clapping:
We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.
:lol::clap2::clapping:


Neil Risch
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA

Alberto Piazza
Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Torino, Via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italy

L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA

[admin]

Conlusion

Arnaiz-Villena and FYROMs last hope

:toiletsmi:headbonk::kick::mf_surren

[akritas]

Conlusion

Arnaiz-Villena and FYROMs last hope

:toiletsmi:headbonk::kick::mf_surren
As I have many times said to the Skopjans that the new claim path is :

Historical argyments are finish. Ancient Macedonians were or became Greeks. Time to start the Genetic crops

Nice work adm:clap2: :clap2:

[HellenicPride]

It was just another attempt for them to discredit the Greeks and it backfired on them which was bound to happen. History can never be change its simple. Greeks are only Macedonian, Macedonia is Greek.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Good work admin, I really enjoyed the read..:clapping:

The whole paper was obviously a poor attempt of propaganda that Arnaiz-Villena was implicated in..

Without getting into the scientific part of the paper that is accurately addressed to in the article. Anyone with limited to no knowledge on genetics would have noticed that the paper mentions :

Acknowledgments:
This work was supported in part by grants from
the Spanish Ministry of Education (PM95-57,
PM96-21 and PM99-23) and the Madrid Regional
Government (06/70/97 and 8.3/14/98).

This is of course totally inaccurate since proof that the above intitutes had abosolutely NO implication NOR did it support this paper are the embezzlement charges against the dear Dr. Arnaiz-Villena for :

""purchase of products not used in his department's healthcare activities"

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7339/695
--------

If we were to continue there are other points that are simply stricking examples of the real intentions :


The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.

The extraordinary conclusions are easily refuted by simply looking at J. Lawrence Angel's "Social Biology of Greek Culture Growth" as presented in "American Anthropologist"
There, on the anthropological types found in Hellas, types that were well established since the third millenium BC, we find J.L. Angel stating that :
"Racial continuity in Greece is striking"

In the above paper we find the following table that indicates exactly what Angel supported:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/angeltable.jpg
---------


The obvious purpose of propaganda becomes even more obvious when the hematologist (Arnaiz-Villena) and NOT a genetist, attempts to play it historian :

Ancient Macedonians were among the peoples that lived between
northern Greece (Thessaly) and Thrace in the Balkans and
were considered by the classical Greeks as ‘‘non-Greek barbarians’’
that could not participate in the Greek Olympic Games

Besides the list of Makedones that have undoubtably participated and prevailed in a number of Olympic events like :

*King Alexander I, in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BCE. He run the “Stadion� and was placed very close second.
*King Arhelaos Perdikas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BCE and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot.
*King Philip II was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BCE, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BCE, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BCE, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.
*Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd Olympics, in 328 BCE.
*Damasias from Amphipolis won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BCE.
*Lampos from Philippi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BCE.
*Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BCE and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BCE.
*Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BCE.
*During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BCE and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BCE, a woman from Macedonia won the competition. Pausanias mentions that: “…it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi from the seashores of Macedonia�.


We that do know history understand that they came to this conclusion after reading the event mentioned in Herodotus. "Histories". Unfortunately these pseudo-scolars never read Herodotus' texts extensively otherwise they would have known that he tells us in 1.56:

Herodotus. History 1.56

These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the being a Pelasgic, the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians.

The above quote clearly indicates that the Makedones were Hellinic stock.

Or they could have chosen not to ignore Hesiod's account :

"And she (Thyia, sister of Hellen) conceived and bare to Zeus who delights in the thunderolt two sons, Magnes and Makedon, rejoicing in horses, who dwell round about Pieria and Olympos."
(Hesiod Catalogues of Women, fr.3)


So it is obviously more than simply evident that either the other runners had absolutely no knowledge of this fact, (something literally impossible) or they intentionally attempted to find some reason to avoid racing against Alexander I. But then again, this could have just been nothing more than a little mix up based on FYROMian propaganda and the pseudo-scolars ignorance on Hellinic history.. since as Strabo tells us (7.7.1- 8.1.1) parts of Makedonia were held by or populated by Thracians.
So the Thracian presence in this area may have been the reason the other participants demanded for proof of his Hellinic origin.
----


The laughable comment :

They did not speak Greek
but another language presently unknown and of which only proper
names remain; nowadays, they speak a Slavic language

All inscriptions found, texts, month names, place names, personal names...etc prove them to be once again caught with their pants down in this propaganda attempt of connecting SLAVS to the ancient Makedones, which is obviously the pupose of this trash paper.


The northernmost region of Greece is also known as Macedonia and this is why Greece has opposed the independence of the country while it bears the same name

Yet another INTENTIONALLY MANIPULATION of facts in order to influence ignorant reader, one of the many seen in the face of the author of this topic. Hellas has NEVER argued about the country's independence nor has implied anything pertaining to its self-administration. The argument is clearly based on territorial claims the Slavs that populate the region have made in the past, as seen in several maps, the original constitution of 91', even a banknote depicting the White Tower of Thessaloniki .

Further more, the rejection of the use of the name is totally justified and has its own historical basis. Charles De Gaulle rejected UK's entrance into the then named EEC, due to the existance of the Frence province of Bretagne. Result: After several years of discussion the UK entered under the name of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

Under the logic of claiming that Hellas has rejected the country's independence, then the same accusation should apply to NATO, UN, EU and all the countries and organizations that have rejected to recognize the country under the specific name.
Anyone with half a brain can see through this propaganda.


PS: I know this one is more suitable for our one-liner quotes, but I can't help it.. The quote that made the pseudo-scolars reknowned worldwide :

"the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans"

Signed by :

Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gomez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martinez-Laso J.:lol:

[Tsontos]

http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2006-March/006774.html

[Tsontos]

Ok guys I just merged the other thread on the subject. Its good to have everything in one place. unless anyone disagrees?

-------------------------

Apparently the thesis of this site is that all ancient Greeks were black africans. They prove this by referring to artifacts showing black people The incredible thing is that they even admit they were Slaves in Greece. Another thing is that on the one hand they call Cleopatra Macedonian ie. Ptolemaic dynasty yet at the same time they show a picture of a women from 'Greek Egypt' hahahaha.

http://macedoniancivilization.blog.com.mk/node/1301


So it seems the Skopjians, the afrocentrists and the nordcists (although they should be complete mortal enemies at the core) have found common ground in regards to the historio-genetic defamation of Greeks for their own purposes

The great thing is that they are using methods which have been utterly rejected by the world's academia. The problem, as with the Skopjian historical revisionism is that despite the ridiculous flaws in their logic, they are still able to harm Greece through the flooding of propaganda all over the net. The HLA GENES OF SUBSAHARAN OF GREEKS is quite easily found on the net.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Its not really worth wasting our time on the crap (no other accurate discription comes to mind) they've adopted from individuals like Arthur Kemp..

Dear Arthur has been ridiculed all over the web, even in pro-Nordic sites that support his delusion of Blond, blue-eyed superiority. Simply because he's been continuously caught intentionally manipulating texts, nit-picking quote and presenting them as his own and of course intentionally manipulating artifacts (the fisherman frescoe is one of the best examples)

Kinda reminds me of akritas' buddy Risto Stefov:lol:

But you have to enjoy how these trolls manipulate the facts in whichever way it suits them.. While the vast majority of the pics they present in order to support their claims derives from Egypt. They forget or simply obviously ignore that Hellinistic Egypt begins with Alexander's conquest.

Or we could use their example of Artemidoros, Artemidoros while may have written in Hellinic and his texts are undoubtably part of the Hellinic anthology, he was never considered Hellinic. Obviously the reason why the encyclopedia Suda describes him not as Hellinic but as a Daldian :

Ἀρτεμίδωρος, Δαλδιανός [πόλις δέ ἐστι Λυδίας ἡ Δάλδις], φιλόσοφος. ἔγραψεν Ὀνειροκριτικὰ ἐν βιβλίοις δ#, Οἰωνοσκοπικὰ καὶ Χειροσκοπικά

Translation:
A Daldian (Daldis is a Lydian city), a philosopher. He wrote the Onirocritica in 4 books, the Oeonoscopica and the Chiroscopica

[akritas]

Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch - countered this accusation by pointing out the scientific limitations of Arnaiz-Villena's methodology.

They stated that

"Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics."

making specific allusion to the findings on Greeks (among others) as

"anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups."


Skopjan Lubi Uzunovski are you listening dear?:laugh:

[Kritikos]

i see in the last days that the northern neighborours are still using genetics to provide a claim on the ancient macedonians:

High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations -- Pericic et al. 22 (10): 1964 -- Molecular Biology and Evolution (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/22/10/1964)
http://vetinari.sitesled.com/slavic.pdf

The Macedonians have a following percentage of Y-haplogroups (male lineages): E3b1 21.4% , I1b 29% , J2 12.2% , R1a 14.7% , R1b 7.8%.

E3b1 comes from East Africa (Ethiopia, Somalia) and got to the Near East after the end of the Ice Age with the bearers of Afro-Asiatic (Semito-Hamitic) languages. Here they mixed with local Near Easterners. About 5700 BC, this Y-haplogroup (together with J2 and G) was brought to Europe from Asia Minor with the first agriculturalists. Today it is frequent in the southern Balkans and southern Italy, but its frequency decreases towards Central Europe (ca. 5%) and is virtually absent in North-Western Europe.

I1b is an old European marker and its bearers are descendants of paleolithic hunters, who dwelled around the Adriatic Sea and in the Carpathian basin during the last Ice Age. After the end of the Ice Age they headed north-west and colonized Scandinavia. Today it is most frequent in Bosnians (over 60%) and other inhabitants of the Dinaric Alps.

J2 is a Near-Eastern Y-haplogroup and got to Europe with the first agriculturalists 5700 BC. It is a close fellow-traveler of E3b1 and G.

R1a (R1a1) is an Eastern-European Y-haplogroup. Its bearers were Ice Age mammoth hunters from today's Ukraine. This Y-haplogroup is closely tied with the migrations of Aryans (Indo-Iranians) and Slavs; hence it is most frequent in Russia, Poland, Byelorussia and Ukraine, where its frequency mostly oscillates between 50-55%. It is also present among Aryan upper castes in India (45%).

R1b is an old paleolithic European Y-haplogroup from south-west France and Cantabria and is closely tied with the spread of the Magdalenian culture of "reindeer-hunters" after the end of the Ice Age. It could get to the Balkans most probably mainly with Celtic migrations and later during the Roman period.
From the comparison given above it can be concluded that modern Macedonians have a relatively minor (R1a+R1b 30%) percentage of Slavic blood and they are descendants of the neolithic inhabitants of the southern Balkans. The composition of Y-haplogroups and their distribution is similar to the Greeks, who also have, by the way, approximately the same percentage of R1a (14,3%), which shows that the blood of Slavic invaders from 6th century still persists in modern Greece. In comparison with Macedonians, Greeks look more influenced by migrations from Asia Minor (J2+E3b1: 41,7%) and they also have more intense traces of Western Mediterranean R1b (23,8%), perhaps as a result of more intense contacts during the Roman era. They have less percentage of I1b than Macedonians (10,8%).

Currently we can't say, how these lineages were distributed in the Balkans in ancient times, because they may be susceptible to accidental genetic drift. However, the numbers presented above may indicate that Greeks were "less European" than Macedonians as early as during the ancient times and their gene pool was later more diluted by contact with Western Mediterranean.

Ancient Macedonian Kalasha Tribe and Greek DNA
Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=447589)

When a DNA comparison was made between the Ancient Macedonian tribe Kalasha located in Pakistan with the Greeks living in Aegean Macedonia, no match was found. Here is the conclusion of a genetic study from 2002:

"Overall, no support for a Greek origin of their Y chromosomes was found, but this conclusion does require the assumption that modern Greeks are representative of Alexander's armies."

Kalasha comparisons

Internet Archive Wayback Machine (http://web.archive.org/web/200212122...hroms&popid=59)

Yugoslavia is found to have genes most similar to the Kalasha tribe. You must remember this comparison was done before the break up of Yugoslavia and we are assuming they compared the genes of the Macedonians with them, possibly with other ethnicities in Yugoslavia also, meaning the average may be different from the similarities if just Macedonian was compared.
From this…. Greeks have the same amount of Slav blood as Macedonians in Republic of Macedonia… who is propagating!?

well,in my next couple of posts,i wish to comment on this,if you allow me.:)

[Kritikos]

And here we start.

Initially,i would likely ask you to post your own questions if anything is not clear,since i may use some spesific terms,so i can clear them up.

E3b1 comes from East Africa (Ethiopia, Somalia) and got to the Near East after the end of the Ice Age with the bearers of Afro-Asiatic (Semito-Hamitic) languages. Here they mixed with local Near Easterners. About 5700 BC, this Y-haplogroup (together with J2 and G) was brought to Europe from Asia Minor with the first agriculturalists. Today it is frequent in the southern Balkans and southern Italy, but its frequency decreases towards Central Europe (ca. 5%) and is virtually absent in North-Western Europe.

This quote describes the genetic composition of the slav macedonians,its course in time and its similarities with neighboring populations. What does it tell us? That the populations of FYROM are to be found near in a genetic scale with Greeks,populations in asia minor,southern italy and rest of the balkans. I dont see any greek claiming that the slav macedonians share common genes with northern europeans such as the scandinavians for example:)

Under no circumstance this proves any relation with ancient populations in our area.

Next quote:

The Macedonians have a following percentage of Y-haplogroups (male lineages): E3b1 21.4% , I1b 29% , J2 12.2% , R1a 14.7% , R1b 7.8%.

I1b (29%) and E3b1 21% makes a 50%. Both of those 2 alleles are common to slavs,first is to be found in dinaric populations,mostly in western balkans,(Bosnians as it is mentioned below),the latter one is typically slav,found across Russians,Poles etc.

So the results of the taken sample (bear this in mind,as i will come into that later) show that 1 out of 2 slav macedonians are exactly that: SLAVS.

Strangily enouph,there is no mention of any Bulgarian gene pool,and any connection between the gene pool of the slav macedonians and the bulgarian one. If we had a similar report of the bulgarian DNA we could make a comparison and see any possible similarities and differencies. Omitted? Who knows.

R1b is an old paleolithic European Y-haplogroup from south-west France and Cantabria and is closely tied with the spread of the Magdalenian culture of "reindeer-hunters" after the end of the Ice Age. It could get to the Balkans most probably mainly with Celtic migrations and later during the Roman period.
From the comparison given above it can be concluded that modern Macedonians have a relatively minor (R1a+R1b 30%) percentage of Slavic blood and they are descendants of the neolithic inhabitants of the southern Balkans.

ON THE CONTRARY!! The above results show that R1a1 and R1b1 constitute ONLY a 21% circa COMBINED,a fact that suggests that those alleles are to be found ONLY IN MINOR numbers among the TAKEN SAMPLE.


And a few general notes on the above repport:

Genetics are like statistics: Same research can be explained in different means:

I have a few questions to make: WHAT IS THE SAMPLE USED for this research? Where do the males come from? Out of 1,2 million slav macedonians,half of them are slavs as this report admits. What about the other half? What are the composite ethnic groups?

And,indeed,as i have seen from the second link:

http://vetinari.sitesled.com/slavic.pdf

a sample of 681 men has been used. This is hardly representative in a genetic scale.


Does anyone doubts that the children taken during the greek civil war to FYROM,brought up and raised there,having slavic conscioussness are not genetically greeks,or greek related at least?

I seriously doubt the uniformity of the sample,because there is no such reference. Nowhere is written what is the place of origin of the individuals tested,they could all be taken from the southern borders for all we know.

Currently we can't say, how these lineages were distributed in the Balkans in ancient times, because they may be susceptible to accidental genetic drift. However, the numbers presented above may indicate that Greeks were "less European" than Macedonians as early as during the ancient times and their gene pool was later more diluted by contact with Western Mediterranean.

This is funny. A totally unfounded conclusion. There is no way we can result in such a statement for many scientific reasons,like :

1st: The time range is too large for us to admit that the gene pool has remained the same. There have been many genetic mutations,drifts in the area of balkans during the last 2,500 years,since the populations have been all mixed up considerably. There have been certainly several genetical drifts. This is easily explained as the Y chromosome,since it is smaller than the X one,is less likely to be subjected to mutations,BUT IF any mutations succeed,then the results are more obvious. And mutations certainly happened,undoubtedly.Unless they want to claim ancestry out of the Hominidae (Neaderthalensii) and make themselves look as the laughing stock of the international genetical and medical community,they cannot base their claims such long ago in time.:laugh:

2nd: As posted above,we have no clue of the taken sample. Different samples taken from that country,and the results and conclusions made will be totally different. FYROM is constitute of many different ethnic groups,a genetical purity is simply ridiculous.Different results and conclusions can be made if we use a sample of Bitola residents or Ohrid,and a totally different one if we use one from the northern borders with Serbia,or north-western ones with Kossovo.

3rd and most important one:
As everybody can see the above report,it is full of questions marks.
''it MAY indicate, ....possibly....probably....'' a thing that suggests that themselves are not confident enouph to base their claims on this genetic study.

Fact remains,that there is a PREDOMINANT slavic gene pool among them, over 50%,which in every sense proves their ethnic origin. Fullstop:laugh:

4th: I have noticed the institutes that made this report as well. If we exclude the Scottish one,the others have something in common. I will leave the readers to make their own conclusions;)


5TH:

Nevertheless,as a last notice,even if we have to accept the dubbious conclusions of this genetical report,i have to say that:

Genetics is a powerful tool and if it fells off in the wrong hands,then it can become dangerous. Claiming ancestry out of DNA composition is very much outdated,since it is rather culture,ethnic conscioussnes and historical memory that matters.

And the slav macedonians have no historical memory to the ancient ones prior to 17th century.Neither do they have any linguistical or cultural ties;)

[akritas]

Very intresting informations Kritikos :)

[Kritikos]

Very intresting informations Kritikos :)


Thanks Akritas. What i have also neglected to say is this:

It is very important to note that membership in a particular haplogroup does not (by itself) indicate the ethnic group from which the patrilineal line derives. There is a lot of misinformation posted on the Internet in this regard. You can see such statements as “R1b means Celtic,” or “I1a means Viking.” While those two haplogroups are common in those two populations, they also occur in every country in Europe. It may be possible in the future that sufficient subgroup structure will be discovered that more precise origins will be indicated, but that is not presently possible.



A particular set of values for a set of STR or SNP markers is termed a “haplotype.” The repeat value of a particular STR marker is called an “allele,” and the distribution of values for a marker within a given haplogroup is called the allele frequency distribution.

STR (short tandem repeats) These are short, usually four-letter, sequences that are repeated between 8 and 36 times. The “value” at a particular marker or location is simply the number of times that the sequence is repeated. Y-chromosome testing is normally done by the commercial testing services on 12, 25, or 37 markers. The results of such testing is simply a set of 12, 25, or 37 two-digit (or occasionally one-digit) numbers. The region where the STRs are tested is a region of the Y-chromosome that has no biological function. It is thought to represent “junk DNA.” There are no medical or health issues connected to these, other than paternity, so there are no more privacy issues for this set of numbers than there is for the public awareness of ones surname.


It sometimes comes as a surprise to people when they first receive their Y test results to discover that the haplogroups are actually defined by a type of marker called unique event polymorphisms (UEPs) that are not normally tested by the commercial laboratories because of the expense. These biallelic (i.e., two-valued) markers are also called Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNP). As the term UEP implies, changes in these markers occur (except very rarely) only once at a given Y-chromosome location in human history (ergo, the “unique” in UEP), and a new one pops up about every 7000 years in the regions of interest on the Y-chromosome. A mutation involves the substitution of one of the four subunits of DNA for another. There are 249 known haplogroups and subgroups. Major haplogroups are labeled (named) with the letters of the alphabet, while numerals and lower-case letters are used to designate the subgroups. For example, the most common subgroup in Europe is the R1b group, which is the 1b sub-haplogroup of the R haplogroup.

HAPLOGROUPS (http://home.comcast.net/~whitathey/haplogroups.htm)

Furthermore,the above research is yet another one argument of the contininuity of the gene pool among the greeks from Neolithic until modern times. The below Stanford genetical study proves it:

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/A_2002_v76_p707-714.pdf

[Spartan]

One important thing to remember is they are only giving HALF of the picture! They are coming to conclusions without looking into the mtDNA part of their population. All there results show is where did the male line originate from and not the female line.

[Spartan]

Investigation of the Greek ancestry of northern Pakistani ethnic groups using Y chromosomal DNA variation

1Q. Ayub, 1A. Mansoor, 1A. Mohyuddin, 1K. Mazhar, 1S. Siddiqi, 2M. Papaioannou, 3C. Tyler-Smith, 1S.Q. Mehdi1Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Division, Dr. A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories, P.O. Box 2891, Islamabad 44000, Pakistan, 2Unit of Prenatal Diagnosis, Center for Thalassemia, Laiko General Hospital, Athens, Greece, 3CRC Chromosome Molecular Biology Group, Department of Biochemistry, University of oxford, Oxford, UK


Pakistan lies in a region that has witnessed multiple invasions and migrations over the centuries. Alexander the Great invaded the Indian sub-continent in 327-325 B.C. and three northern Pakistani populations, the Burusho, the Kalash and the Pathan claim descent from Greek soldiers who were left behind in this region. The Burusho reside in the Hunza and Nagar valleys, which are located in the Karakorum Mountains and speak the language isolate Burushaski. The Kalash have been isolated for centuries in the Hindu Kush mountain ranges of northern Pakistan and speak Kalasha, an Indo-European language. The Pathan tribes inhabit the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan and the southern and eastern parts of neighboring Afghanistan. They speak Pushto, also an Indo-European language. To investigate the male-line genetic relationship between the extant Greek population (assuming that modern Greek are representative of Alexander's armies) and the three Pakistani ethnic groups, 16 binary unique event polymorphisms, and 16 multiallelic, short-tandem-repeat (STR) loci, mapping on the non-recombining portion of the human Y chromosome were typed in 910 individuals. The combination of the biallelic markers identified 7 stable Y chromosomal lineages in the Greek, Burusho and Pathan populations and 5 in the Kalash. Haplogroups 1, 2, 3 and 9 were present in all four populations. The M20 A to G transition (haplogroup 28) was found in all three Pakistani populations but was absent in the Greeks. This polymorphism probably originated in or near Pakistan as it has not been found at a significant frequency except in this area. Haplogroup 21 was frequent in the Greeks but in these Pakistani populations was found only in the Pathans. Based upon haplogroup frequencies, 65-88% Greek admixture was estimated for the Kalash, consistent with a Greek origin for a significant proportion of Kalash Y chomosomes. However, the Kalash lack haplogroup 21 chromosomes and appeared distinct from the Greeks based upon principal components analysis of haplogroup frequencies and weighted population pairwise FST values based on STR variation within Y Haplogroups. They clearly contain a substantial proportion of Pakistani Y chromosomes, illustrated by their high frequency of hg 28, and the true Greek contribution remains uncertain. Estimates of Greek Y admixture for the Pathans were about 10%, and for the Burusho were close to zero. Median-joining networks of STR haplotypes revealed considerable sub-structuring of Y variation within the Kalash and Burusho, and in particular the haplogroup 21 network showed that the Pathan chromosomes were closely related to the central Greek cluster. Thus a small Greek contribution to the Pathans seems likely, the contribution to the Kalash is unclear and no contribution to the Burusho could be detected.

[Orphic_Hymn]

The Macedonians have a following percentage of Y-haplogroups (male lineages): E3b1 21.4% , I1b 29% , J2 12.2% , R1a 14.7% , R1b 7.8%.

Its actually quite funny how people misquote (intentionally?) papers..

According to the paper in question FYROMians have a 6.3% of the subclade J2e-M102 and not 12.2 of J2 which is not entirely presented in the paper.

24.1 and not 21.4 of E3b1

15.2 and not 14.7 of R1a

7.8 but 5.1% of R1b

The only one he managed to get almost right was I1b which is found at a % of 29.1

From this…. Greeks have the same amount of Slav blood as Macedonians in Republic of Macedonia

Actually NO..

In Pericic's paper specifically in "Table 1" the percentage of "I1b* (xM26)-P37" we find that the source for the percentages of Hellenic results are Rootsi 2004 "Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I" (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v75_Semino.pdf)..
According to Rootsi's paper we find:

Hg I accounts for more than one-third of paternal linelineages in two distinct regions of Europe: among Scandinavian populations and in the northwestern Balkans (table 1; fig. 1B). Relatively high frequencies are also characteristic of some French regions, like Low Normandy and southern France. Interestingly, a lower frequency of haplogroup I distinguished the Baltic-speaking Latvians (7.0%; 90% CI 3.8%–13.2%) from their northern neighbors, the Finnic-speaking Estonians (18.6%; 90% CI 14.6%–23.4%).

Similar cases of even more significant frequency change over a short geographic distance occur between the southern Slavic-speaking populations and their adjacent neighbors: namely, the Slovenians versus the northern Italians (38.2%; 99.9% CI 19.5%–60.2% vs. 4.6%; 99.9% CI 1.4%–11.7%), and Macedonians versus Greeks (30.0%; 95% CI 19.1%–43.8% vs. 13.8%; 95% CI 10.1%–18.5%).


So we find that they have 30% of I, in contrast to the total 13% of Hellenes, if we to take into accound the I1b (xM26)-P37 marker as presented in Pericic we seen not only a major difference between us and our Nothern neighbors (FYROMians 29.1 - Hellenes 8.4) but also similarities between them and other Slavic peoples and 1 non.

Croat 32.4
Serbian 29.2
Moldavia (Gagauz) 24.1
Moldavian 21.7
Slovenian 20.0
Romanian 17.7


Note that Rootsi states that I1b's homeland is in eastern Europe or the Balkans, add to this that in Ukraine and in some Russian regions the marker is equally high (15-16.7) and things start to fall in place.

Anyway, while it would have really helped to see Bulgarians included in this paper, we can't but notice how closely related this paper presents them to the Serbs..
I guess they too were part of Alexander's troops.:wacko:

[Tsontos]

"It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the Greek ethnic character. In classical times the Greeks included many kinds of people living in different places, as they do today. If one refers to the inhabitants of Attica during the sixth century, or to the Spartans of Leonidas, then the changes in these localities have probably not been nearly as great as that between the Germans of Tacitus and the living South Germans, to cite but a single example. "

-Charleton S. Coon

[akritas]

In a sample of 125 Greeks from Thessaloniki and Sarakatsani, 2 Asian-specific mtDNA sequences (M and D) were detected (1.6%). No sub-Saharan African genes were observed in this population. Therefore, non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Greece is very low, as elsewhere in Europe.

Richards_2000 (http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/references.html#Richards_2000)



In a sample of 366 Greeks from thirteen locations in continental Greece, Crete, Lesvos and Chios, a single African haplogroup A Y-chromosome was found (0.3%). This marks the only instance to date of sub-Saharan DNA being discovered in Greece. In another sample of 42 Greeks, one sequence of the Siberian Tat-C haplogroup turned up. Note that other studies with larger sample populations have failed to detect this paternal marker in the Greek gene pool (e.g. Malaspina et al. 2000 (http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/references.html#Malaspina_2000); Weale et al. 2001 (http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/references.html#Weale_2001)), and that its frequencies are actually much higher in Scandinavian and Slavic populations.


Di_Giacomo_2003 (http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/references.html#Di_Giacomo_2003)

http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/race_genes.gif

Cavalli-Sforza_1994 (http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/references.html#Cavalli-Sforza_1994)


A recent paper has detected clades of haplogroups J and E3b that were likely not part of pre-historic migrations into Europe, but rather spread by later historical movements. Greeks possess none of the lineages denoting North African ancestry within the last 5000 years, and have only 2% (3/148) of the marker J-M267, which may reflect more recent Middle Eastern admixture
Semino et al. 2004 (http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/references.html#Semino_2004)

An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Greeks, Cretans and other islanders) and various Middle Eastern and North African populations revealed a "line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon," which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that "gene flow was more the exception than the rule," attributing this result to "a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture."

(Simoni et al. 1999 (http://www.sitesled.com/members/racialreality/references.html#Simoni_1999))

source
Racial Reality (http://racialreality.shorturl.com/)

[pankration]

Wow...there are sure a lot of smart people on this forum! Suddenly I feel inadequate!!!!

[akritas]

The Arnaiz-Villena controversy

An often-cited study from 2001 by Arnaiz-Villena et al.[1] which maps 28 world population based on the HLA DRB1 locus, concluded that "the reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan, and West Africa (Burkina Faso)." Later that year, the same data was used in another study by the same author published in a different journal.[2]

This second paper dealt specifically with the relatedness of Palestinians and Israelis and was subsequently "deleted from the scientific literature" because, according to the editor-in-chief Nicole Suciu-Foca, it "confounded the elegant analysis of the historic basis of the people of the Mediterranean Basin with a political viewpoint representing only one side of a complex political and historical issue".[3]

Erica Klarreich's report on the controversy further quotes Sucio-Foca as saying that the reaction against the paper was so severe that "We would have had mass resignations and the journal would have been destroyed if this paper were allowed to remain." [4] The controversy was further reported on in numerous locations including The Observer.[5]

Shortly after this, three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, argued that the scientific limitations of Arnaiz-Villena's methodology.[6] They stated that "USING RESULTS FROM THE ANALYSIS OF A SINGLE MARKER, PARTICULARLY ONE LIKELY TO HAVE UNDERGONE SELECTION, FOR THE PURPOSE OF RECONSTRUCTING GENEALOGIES IS UNRELIABLE AND UNACCEPTABLE PRACTICE IN POPULATION GENETICS.", making specific allusion to the findings on Greeks (among others) as "ANOMALOUS RESULTS, WHICH CONTRADICT HISTORY, GEOGRAPHY, ANTHROPOLOGY AND ALL PRIOR POPULATION-GENETIC STUDIES OF THESE GROUPS."

No multiple-marker analysis has ever duplicated Arnaiz-Villena's results. In The History and Geography of Human Genes (Princeton, 1994), Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza grouped Greeks with other European and Mediterranean populations based on 120 loci (view MDS plot[7). Then, Ayub et al. 2003[8] did the same thing using 182 loci (view dendrogram[9).

THE DISPUTED DATA CONTINUES TO BE CITED ALL OVER THE INTERNET, MOSTLY BY WHITE SUPREMACISTS, AFROCENTRISTS AND MACEDONISM NATIONALISTS WHO HAVE POLITICAL MOTIVATIONS TO RELATE MODERN OR ANCIENT GREEKS TO BLACK AFRICANS. HOWEVER, IT'S NO LONGER REFERENCED BY POPULATION GENETICISTS IN CONTEMPORARY RESEARCH, MAINLY DUE TO THE CRITICISM OF CAVALLI-SFORZA ET AL.

Footnotes
1. ^ Arnaiz-Villena et al.
2. ^ Abstract
3. ^ Human Immunology, Vol: 62, Issue: 10, October, 2001, pp1063
4. ^ Nature
5. ^ The Observer
6. ^ Nature
7. ^ MDS plot
8. ^ Ayub et al. 2003
9. ^ dendrogram

source
Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe: Information from Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/sub-saharan-dna-admixture-in-europe)

[Tsontos]

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-macedonia-forum/3300-gene-wars.html


3erei kaneis ti egine me to arthro toy nature.com?

[Orphic_Hymn]

you need a subscription to read the archives (http://www.nature.com/search/executeSearch?sp-q=Dropped+genetics+paper+lacked+scientific+merit&sp-c=10&sp-x-9=cat&sp-s=date&sp-q-9=NATURE&submit=go&sp-a=sp1001702d&sp-sfvl-field=subject%7Cujournal&sp-x-1=ujournal&sp-p-1=phrase&sp-p=all)

[Orphic_Hymn]

Sickle Cell Disease has been used as an argument by our Northern neighbors and individuals like A.Kemp (who they quote) as an alleged indication of African origins of the Hellenes.

Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP in his "The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities For Understanding Its Diversity" clarifies:

....... Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. The factor in common to the distribution of the sickle cell gene is therefore malaria and not African ancestry

[akritas]

Question
Is it possible to tell the race of a person from their DNA?

No - Dr. Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, says that there is no evidence so far that would distinguish DNA from one race as opposed to any other. Ellen S. Mayo
================================================== =======

Answer
NO! There are more individual differences between people of the same race, than there are differences between the races. These discoveries more than any other, should show that race is (was) just an environmental adaptation, and that we truly are all one species.

source:
US Department of Energy, Molecular Biology Archive (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00146.htm)

[KarrieTamsin]

I initiate a uncut crowd of soups that check out extraordinary, and can be made in big batches and frozen.
Is there any interest?