The Danger of the Slavs’ Claims to be Macedonians

[Makedonia25]

The Danger of the Slavs’ Claims to be Macedonians

E. G. Vallianatos

On 9 March 2006, Congressman Mark Souter (R-ID) provided a room on Capitol Hill to ambassador Nikola Dimitrov to explain why his country, the former Yugoslav province bordering Greek Macedonia, deserves to appropriate the Greek name of Macedonia.

Dimitrov explained he was not there to attack Greece, but to defend the right of his country to chose its name and destiny. “This name issue is not something one can take lightly,” he said. “For us the name Macedonia is inseparable from our identity.”

Dimitrov was talking to a small group of Congressional staffers and others, most of them Americans. So he praised the role of the United States in Southeastern Europe and the wrecking of Yugoslavia from which his country came into being. He thanked George W. Bush for recognizing his country as “the republic of Macedonia” because his government has a few soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan as part of the “coalition of the willing.”

What outraged me in this Republican project of giving prominence to an enemy of Greece, was the shallowness of the presentation, the mixing up of truth with fiction, the use of platitudes for covering up a systematic campaign of faking history, and the dishonest proclamation of assuming a foreign identity.

I reminded Dimitrov that the ancient Macedonians were Greek; they worshipped the Greek gods, spoke Greek, and participated in the Olympics. In addition, I said to Dimitrov his Slavic ancestors appeared in Northern Europe a millennium after Alexander the Great, and that it was the communist tyrant Tito in the early 1940s who named one of the Yugoslav provinces Macedonia. I also asked him, Why was he not proud for being Slav? He ignored my questions, repeating the refrain that history was of no importance in settling issues of security in 2006.

So, in 2006, we have a dangerous paradox. There are a couple of million Bulgarians and Albanians living north of Greece who claim to be Macedonians. Yet these people have no historical or ethnic relation whatsoever with either Macedonians or Greeks. They speak an artificial Slavic tongue. But for some 15 years, they keep repeating the blatant lie to themselves and gullible foreigners that they are the descendants of Alexander the Great, calling themselves “Macedonians,” and 119 countries, including the United States, agreeing with them. Meanwhile, they insult Greece by suggesting the country is suppressing the rights of its “Macedonian minority.” Adding to this global hatred for Greek culture, we have Greeks from Greece being the real economic force in this pseudo-state. Their investment in 2005 was about $ 1 billion. One wonders if these Greeks are either naïve or under an illusion, thinking their businesses will paper over the hostility of these Slavs and Albanians for Greek culture.

Unfortunately, Greece is also responsible for this tragedy in its northern frontier. Christianity has made the country always hesitant in defending its Hellenic culture. Thus when the Slavs of Yugoslavia started calling themselves Macedonians, Greece was sluggish, vacillating, but largely silent. It should have protested vigorously Tito’s grab of Hellenic culture, but it did not. Second, it was the New Democracy administration of Greece that in 1993 suggested FYROM, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, for the UN name of its neighbor. In fact, according to Chris Spyrou, former president of the Democratic Party of New Hampshire, prime minister Metsotakes was responsible for this synthetic name. That anti-Hellenic decision of the Greek government, and its support by the “leaders” of the Greek American community, led the Clinton administration to abandon its pro-Greek position and the UN to recognize FYROM on 7 April 1993. “That day,” says Spyrou, “part of my Greekness died.”

The mixed but pro-FYROM messages of the Greek government convinced other countries that Greece was not serious about protecting its culture and Hellenic identity.

Of course, Skopje is too small a country to threaten the security of Greece – I agree on that with ambassador Dimitrov.

The real danger of Skopje is its hubris, speaking with so much certainty about being Macedonia, an audacious claim, certified by muddled Greek policy and the international community, of stealing part of Hellenic culture. Imagine, in the not so distant future, children and adults all over the world reading that the fabulous Macedonian Hellenic traditions of Alexander the Great, in other words, Hellenism itself, come from this little Slavic country north of Greece?

What will this do to the Greeks’ self-respect and identity? Such a development is certain to lead to war because the Greeks, much more than the deceptive policies of their government since 1991, do care about who they are.

Time is of the essence to put an end to the propaganda of Skopje. The Greeks need to change their government to one that has a Hellenic vision, no more peddling the multiculturalism of the American-made policy of Skopje. Greek businessmen must also decide between their personal dignity and pride in being Greek and cashing in while making stronger an enemy of Greek culture.

E. G. Vallianatos is the author of “This Land is Their Land: How Corporate Farms Threaten the World” (Common Courage Press) and the forthcoming “The Passion of the Greeks.”

[pankration]

I would like to extend my sincerest gratitude to Mr. Dimitrov for so effectively encapsulating what every real Greek in the world knows:

"Dimitrov explained he was not there to attack Greece, but to defend the right of his country to chose its name and destiny. “This name issue is not something one can take lightly,” he said. “For us the name Macedonia is inseparable from our identity.”

Oh sorry, I misread your quote, Mr. Dimitrov. You're stating that Skopjeans have their identity linked to the ancients. I can see that. But here's the part I don't understand. You believe that your 40-50 year history as a region/nation (sic) is "inseparable" from Macedonia.

Well, Mr. Dimitrov, Greeks have 3-4000 years invested in our cultural heritage and Macedonia is not only inseparable from our identity, it is inseparable from our ethnicity, culture and souls. When you can make the same claim, then you should make another pitch to a sympathetic government.

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[Greece2006]

Hi to all, Im a Greek Macedonian from Sydney, Australia, and I really like your website/forum. Can someone tell me, where is the introductions forum on this site?

[Tchakalaroff]

The problem with the FYROM is that everything related with the historical Macedonia (the archaeological sites, the cities, the names, the findings, the whole area in fact) is located outside FYROM! (they are within the Greek borders and blended with the Greek history)

That means the individual who grow up as being a "proper Macedonian" (and at the same time considering a direct insult any reference to his slavic identity and ancestry) will inevitable grow an irredentistic attitude in order to meet the standards that the educational system of FYROM and their families raised him up

That is not true..
In my country there are 5 known ancient macedonian cities.. :
Stoby
Scoupi,
Heraclea,
Astroma
and Lichnida

I promice to provide you with photos from these antient cities that shine with hellenic culture...

[Orphic_Hymn]

That is not true..
In my country there are 5 known ancient macedonian cities.. :
Stoby
Scoupi,
Heraclea,
Astroma
and Lichnida

I promice to provide you with photos from these antient cities that shine with hellenic culture...

Stobi is in the region named Paionia, true conquered by the Makedones, but not a city of any importance until the Romans took over. This is the reason why all archeologic finds of some importance are dated to Roman times.. with the best example being the theater.

Scoupi aka Skopje. Again of no significance to the Makedones, only in the first cent. is it named as such and gains some 'prestige' and is possibly used as a major military camp.

I have no idea where Astroma is.

The other to you mention, Heraclea Lyncestis was of some significance and Lychnis was considered a fort that became more significant during the Roman rule and the Egnatia route.

So out of the five you mention only the two can be considered of Makedonian influence. But even if we were to accept all five, you neglect to mention the non-existant, cultural ties or the lack of historic memories that were only recently constructed.

[Leonatos]

i think Scupi was the Dardanian capital,not a macedonian city.Later it was the base of some Roman legions such as Legio XI and V.
The town was under Macedonian occupation for many years,during the wars with the Dardani.


The only town of critical importance to the Macedonians, a town which was indeed a macedonian fort,was Bylazora i think.But again it was more a border fort and military colony than a proper town.Such towns existed also in Thrace and could not be compared to the greatness of the macedonian capitals Pella, Aiges or Dion.

[Tchakalaroff]

i think Scupi was the Dardanian capital,not a macedonian city.

Thanks for this information.. I will check it later..

[Tchakalaroff]

A lot of people on this forum have asked why do we call ourselfs "macedonians" ??!??
Ladies and Gentelmen of this forum.. I will now try to explane you why..
But please don't change the words (don't moderate it), because my thought won't be understood...

----
first of all I want to tell you that I don't belive in our connection with ancient macedonia.... But we have other connection with macedonia, that nobady can't dennie....
---

Thanks in advance...

We all know that in the territorial division of the Ottoman Empire under the
administrative teritory of "Macedonia" included todays north Greece, The Pirin part of Macedonia (Bulgaria), and the Vardar part of Macedonia (wich we call "Republic of Macedonia" and you call it "FYROM"....

This is a map of the Ottoman province of Macedonia:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3913/macedoniaottomanpo9.jpg

And for the Slavs living in Macedonia, the love was unmeasyrable..
In every song, in every text, in every folk story they were using the name Macedonia, macedonian, makedontsi, makedonki...

For 200 years all of the folk songs include the word macedonia, macedonian....

I admit, that thier ethnical concience was a "tradable commodity" - something like todays political parties...

the most of the slavs of Macedonia (ottoman province from Skopia to Salonica) or about 70% were under the Bulgarian Exarchate.. That's why they said: we are bulgarians, the other 30 % were under the greek patriarchate, and they felt like greeks.. But the love thowards their land was
much much much more powerful then their national identity...

that's why after 1945 both grekomans (even in 1945 there were grekoman villages in Krushevo and monastir and gevgelia) and both serbomans and both bulgaromans decided to unite under the umbrella of "MAKEDONISM"...
Yes for the first time in 1945 the makedonism was institutionalised...

And those slavophon greeks that were upressed by Metaxas and that fought in ELAS and refuged to Yugoslavia became "macedonians" too..

That's why I think that we too have the right to call ourselfs "macedonians"

Because how can't we when all of our folk songs are sang about "Macedonian land", "macedonian girl", e.t.c.

[Flipper]

Would it be ok for you to call yourselves "Slavomacedonians" or something that describe your ethnic origins but still shows the local origins?

I mean, people in Serres, Kilkis etc often describe you as "Slavomacedones".

[Tchakalaroff]

Would it be ok for you to call yourselves "Slavomacedonians" or something that describe your ethnic origins but still shows the local origins?

I mean, people in Serres, Kilkis etc often describe you as "Slavomacedones".

You know Flipper... The problem is not in how we call ourselfs, but what is the name of my country...
We can never change ourselfs.. we the macedonian slavs will allways call ourselfs "Macedonians"...

But I am OK to chenge the name of our country in The Slavic Republic of Macedonia...

I think it will be both good for you guys and for us...

Or, we can write it Macedonia (Slavic Republic)...

Yes Flipper, I am OK with it, but a lot of people in my country are not :unsure:

[Leonatos]

Tchakalaroff,is there in your country a party that would be ready to accept the name Slavic Republic of Macedonia?
I have read in your post the reason why you want to call yourself Macedonians and it can make sense.The slavs have been living in this region since the 7th century so geographically they could be called Macedonian slavs.It is a moderate view on the subject compared to what yor radical compatriots say about the ancient Macedonians and their descent from them and such fairy tales in general.
But while you can call yourselves Macedonians in your country and it is your right it would be better if the term Slavic-Macedonian was used to describe your nation and your language internationally.
I am saying this because here in Greece many people would feel insulted if the name Macedonia and the term Macedonian was monopolised internationally by your people.For us,Greeks, it has a great historical value.
I think that if there was good will by your country we could solve this problem once and for all and live peacefully thereafter.
This could be done if both sides took into consideration the sensitivities of the other side and the radical views were put aside.For example,the educational system in your country could stop promoting radical views concerning the history of your nation.
Are there moderate people in your country?
Can the moderate people in the Balkans hope for a peaceful and productive future without ethnic antagonisms and irredentisms?
Is there hope for a flourishing economy in all the balkan countries and a sense of brotherhood among all balkan nations?

[Flipper]

You know Flipper... The problem is not in how we call ourselfs, but what is the name of my country...
We can never change ourselfs.. we the macedonian slavs will allways call ourselfs "Macedonians"...

But I am OK to chenge the name of our country in The Slavic Republic of Macedonia...

I think it will be both good for you guys and for us...

Or, we can write it Macedonia (Slavic Republic)...

Yes Flipper, I am OK with it, but a lot of people in my country are not :unsure:

As Leonatos said I find what you say reasonable. SROM is by my view better than FYROM. But as you said all do not have the same opinion.

However, I've encountered more people from your country supporting your opinion.

[Amarantos]

I am saying this because here in Greece many people would feel insulted if the name Macedonia and the term Macedonian was monopolised internationally by your people.For us,Greeks, it has a great historical value.

It has a great value.Period.Historical,Contemporary,Future.....ca ll it whatever you want.

[Amarantos]

SROM is by my view better than FYROM.
Slavic Republic of Macedonia
Macedonia (Slavic Republic)
are names that noone will use in everyday use.Just like with "former yugoslav r o m ".It will be cut down to macedonia.Out of question!

[Leonatos]

Slavic Republic of Macedonia
Macedonia (Slavic Republic)
are names that noone will use in everyday use.Just like with "former yugoslav r o m ".It will be cut down to macedonia.Out of question!

Yes,but only the name slavic republic of Macedonia will be used internationally and the slavmacedonians could only use the cut-version only in their country.There could also be an agreement concerning the name used in the media around the world,that is SROM.However all these could happen only if there was good will....
I doubt:dry:

[Euklid]

As i have previously stated somewhere else...the ideal name for your country can be no other than Republiq of Skopia.

First and most important for us, it would make us, stop barking, so you got the Greek Issue solved.

Second and very important for you, it is a name that would allow the Skopianization of the huge Albanian minority.

The Albanians will never identify as Macedonian's in your country, but they will identify as Skopian's, as they already identify nowadays. It would be very logical for you, to allow them to integrate, blend and scatter themselves within the Republiq of Skopia, instead of segregating the 2 people into Albanians-East and Macedonians-West. This route will only lead to Kosovo Status and the 2001 war is the best example.

Now, is your chance to solve 2 problems at once and for all. The Greek Issue and The Albanian Issue both at once.

And bottom line as you said, you are free to identify in your everyday life as you want to, even name your regions Macedonia1 and Macedonia2 but internationally you cannot monopolise it, because we simply cannot allow you to.

[Amarantos]

However all these could happen only if there was good will....
I doubt:dry:
Exactly,the Skopjians in every single way demonstrated not to have good will,besides all the positive moves Greece made to help their country.They want the name "macedonia" and nothing less.It's simple to understand their intentions,no?They won't have it."Discount" period should end!!!!(finaly!!!)

[Euklid]

3 weeks ago i was in Greece, and i was talking to a military official, he told me clearly:

In 1995 when he had momentum, the Greek Pentagon had organized a fine military assault in Skopia...it would be just a go in go out battleplan aimed at murdering the Makedonski leaders and blackmailing the rest to sign a bilateral agreement for discarting the term Macedonia from their Constitution.

That was a move by Papandreou, that Simitis put to an end without being Head of State, yet.

That would have solved the problem, but it didnt happen and unfortunately we gave them "discount" back then.

Now is the time to get it back on interest.

[Leonatos]

what the officer said is a bit radical i am afraid.:)

we can't simply invade a country just because we don't like their policy.We are not nazis,for god sake!

[Tchakalaroff]

Tchakalaroff,is there in your country a party that would be ready to accept the name Slavic Republic of Macedonia?
I have read in your post the reason why you want to call yourself Macedonians and it can make sense.The slavs have been living in this region since the 7th century so geographically they could be called Macedonian slavs....But while you can call yourselves Macedonians in your country and it is your right it would be better if the term Slavic-Macedonian was used to describe your nation and your language internationally.

Yes Leontas, i am happy that you are reasonable....

The worst thing that could happen is if the man that you talk to is without complromise... That's worst...

The diplomatic dispute between our two nations needs a compromise...
But in both the majority are people that don't allow compromise...

Yes I am of for Slavic republic of Macedonia, or Macedonia (Slavic Republic)...

By using that name, foregners will make difirence between your northern greece, and owr republic....

But unfortinately not all think like me.. and you...

[Euklid]

what the officer said is a bit radical i am afraid.:)

we can't simply invade a country just because we don't like their policy.We are not nazis,for god sake!
Of course, we are not, it wouldnt have been a full scale military assult, more intelligentia involved. A bit like James Bond, and Secret services.

It would have solved the problem, and i believe you are familiar with the quote: "o skopos agiazei ta mesa..."

[Euklid]

People, listen.

The Greeks, who have by far the most reliable claims upon Macedonia, still do not monopolize the name.

HOW can people with nothing, no linguistical, cultural or traditional connection aspire to lay claim upon the monopolization of this ultimately Hellenic tribe?

It is improper, unjust, illutional and blatantly stupid.

WE cannot compromize for something that belongs to us.
WE cannot compromize when challenged by an inferior state.
WE cannot compromize, when we already have compromized and allowed the usage of the term Macedonia in the term F.Y.R.O.M.


Vale to gyfto sto krevati.....

[Tchakalaroff]

HOW can people with nothing, no linguistical, cultural or traditional connection aspire to lay claim upon the monopolization of this ultimately Hellenic tribe?

We do not have a linguistical, bu we shure have cultural and traditional
connection with the name MAKEDONIA...

From the time when the slavic provinces (Vardar and Pirin Makedonia) where adhered to the historical province of MAKEDONIA and formed the Ottoman province of MAKEDONIA (from Skopia to Salonika "Via Ignatia") in 1918, we have been deaply connected to the name..
All folk songs, TRADITIONS, writings contain the name MAKEDONIA, and makedonets, makedonka, makedontsi...

So we do have a traditional and cultural connection...

P.S.
And do not forget that untill 1913 and 1919 half of your Makedonia was inhavited with Slavs...

P.P.S.
The people from your Macedonia also haven't any connection with makedonia (the most of them 70% were patriarchist that were brought from azia minor.. asiats...

So don't tell me about the riight to use the name MAKEDONIA... WE BOTH HAVE THAT RIGHT...

[Flipper]

We do not have a linguistical, bu we shure have cultural and traditional

The people from your Macedonia also haven't any connection with makedonia (the most of them 70% were patriarchist that were brought from azia minor.. asiats...

So don't tell me about the riight to use the name MAKEDONIA... WE BOTH HAVE THAT RIGHT...

Yeah, but have you ever thought about what Greeks did in Anatolia and Asia? The Pontians of Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan didn't go there for fun...Most of them where Macedonian leftovers since way back. Besides, the Pontians around the black sea are probably of Dorian origin, both historically and linguisticaly.

As I have mentioned before my grandfathers family was from Macedonia (Grevena) but migrated (1874) to Bursa in Bythinia. 48 years later they came back. Asia Minor didn't just have Ionians after the 19th Century...The coastal cities became so rich and gave many oportunities which made a lot of people from Macedonia and Crete to move there. Exactly the same thing happened with one of my ancestors who was offered a very good bridgebuilding job there.

Since you are from Kastoria I guess you understand Greek...I suggest to have a look at Magia Tsaklis documentary about Minor Asia (Mikra Asia). You will see that many of the Greeks she meets there did not originate from Minor Asia but mostly from Crete, Macedonia and Thrace.

[Tchakalaroff]

...my grandfathers family was from Macedonia (Grevena) but migrated (1874) to Bursa in Bythinia. 48 years later they came back.

First of all I admire the fact that your family has preserved its identity and knows their rooths... That they went from
Macedonia to Turtsia and then came back... But they not so much...
Let's not lie ourselfs and udmit that the greeks (or the people that were leftovers from Byzantine chrisitan population) were not from Macedonia..

The Pontians of Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan didn't go there for fun...Most of them where Macedonian leftovers since way back.

Yeah yeah, the theories are uncountably a lot...
But one is for sure... The magority 70% of the people of northern greece - your Macedonia you brought them in 1919 (from Bulgaria) and 1925 (from Turkey).. Most of them ASIATIC TRIBES with greek identity and patriarchists,,,

Open your greek history book and you will agree with this...

I (that am a direct disendent of Kastorian Komitadjis) have more right to call myself macedonian then the people that you brought from Asia Minor:gun_thug:

[Ptolemy]

The slavomongolic retard just made his last post in this forum. Since he cant stop proving why he is an absolute waste of time for all us here, he is Banned!!

[Flipper]

Yeah yeah, the theories are uncountably a lot...
But one is for sure... The magority 70% of the people of northern greece - your Macedonia you brought them in 1919 (from Bulgaria) and 1925 (from Turkey).. Most of them ASIATIC TRIBES with greek identity and patriarchists,,,

Open your greek history book and you will agree with this...



I don't need to open a Greek history book that ofcourse doesn't say they are Asiatic tribes with Greek identity. In general i prefer non Greek sources so I don't need to hear about "Greek propaganda" when I debate.

Byzantium had no settlements in Asia further out than Asia Minor and Pontus. There were no Greek patriarchists in Asia. Where did you get that? I have a friend from Uzbekistan. Their dialect is very primitive Greek. When he came to Greece back in 1991 he didn't speak a word of modern Greek though he understood everything. Even in the army some people from these countries couldn't speak proper modern Greek. You know very well that those people are leftovers...However, I won't call them macedonians...Just leftovers of the Hellenistic years.

Now lets do some math according to your stats...

We have 70% of Greeks that are not originally from Macedonia. The 30% remaining is 810 000...That number is 8% of the Total greek population. Considering that there are totaly 20 000 000 greeks globaly the number of Greek Macedonians are mathematically 1.6 millions. However, you know very well that the largest Greek migrations to the rest of the world were mostly from Macedonia and Epirus. In Sweden for exampe 80% of the Greeks descend from Kilkis and Serres. In Australia you have also large groups. That means that, that number could increase but lets just stick to that 8%...

In your country 1.280.000 are of your ethnicity, while 520 000 are Albanians, 40 000 are Roms, 70000 are Turks and 24000 are Serbian.

So, after this what are you trying to say with this 70% number?

And by the way..Those Greeks from Bulgaria...Of what origin were they? Logically from Thrace and Macedonia I guess.

I don't know if these numbers lead to anything. I just pointed out that even those who came were not all completely aliens to Macedonia. I just remarked that some people from Macedonia migrated to Minor Asia due to financial reasons.

Don't get me wrong...It was just a parenthesis/remark not a post of "What are you talking about!?!?!?!"-mentality.

As for the name...I understand your local consciousnes and I've told you that before. I don't really know how Greeks would see on the matter if people in FYROM had the same mentality like you? Probably, Macedonia would be an area like Lappland in Scandinavia which is divided between 4 countries and everything is good. Unfortunately many do not have that mentality (about the history thing etc) and that is what insults a Greek.

If there wasn't about the history claims I think things would be much better. Honestly...

[Vasiliye]

There was no such thing as an "Ottoman Province of Macedonia".Mentions of Macedonia during Turkocracy were rare, never official.Macedonia and in some occassion even Macedonians were mentioned few times-after all, it is famous Balkan region, like Thrace , Dalmatia, or Epirus, but that's about it.Should there used to be a "Macedonian ethnos" of Slavic speech, we would have almost infinitely more historical excerpts about them,from them and others.This is not the case.


By the way H.E. Ambassador Nikola Dimitrov is a son of Dimitar Dimitrov, a former University Proffesor and a Minister in in 1998-2002 goverment of VMRO-DPMNE.

Mr. Dimitar Dimitrov is one of the most staunch, erudite and vocal proponent of the Bulgarian character of Macedonia, which is reflected in number of his oral statements, essays in newspapers and in his book "Za imeto i umot", "About the name and the mind".

As for the Northern borders of Macedonia, there is no such definition without taking the era and ethnological situation on the ground.Prespa lake, Heraclea Lyncestis near Monastir and Bitola and latter addition of Paeonian and probably Thracian areas, towards Demir Kapi gorge ate the North and Struma river and beyond.With the exception of Pelagonia which was firmly hellenic, other areas were probably "ecclectic" to some degree.Whatever is the case, in the turmoils of early middle ages, Slavs and others found Greeks in Macedonia and the former never adopted the Macedonian name, for such an entity remains unknown to the primary sources all the way up to the teaching of some intellectuals in 19th century and the realisation of Pseudomacedonian people in 1944 and through abudant legal, educational and cultural measures in latter years.

Think again about this Dimitrov, jr. vs. Dimitrov, sr. situation.It shows the sheer absurdity of the situation.

[achilles]

The magority 70% of the people of northern greece - your Macedonia you brought them in 1919 (from Bulgaria) and 1925 (from Turkey).. Most of them ASIATIC TRIBES with greek identity and patriarchists,,,

Any proof the the Pontian-Greeks are asian tribes? I can post my e mail so you can hand it over to me. What is your evidence that Greek-speaking of Slavophone Hellenes of what is currently known as "Bulgaria" or "FYROM" were Asian tribes? :lol:

I (that am a direct disendent of Kastorian Komitadjis) have more right to call myself macedonian then the people that you brought from Asia Minor:gun_thug:

And i thought you are a direct descendant of Alexander the Great! :clapping:

Listen dude. The fact that your Slavo-Bulgar-Mongol-Albanian or what-freaking-ever ancestors HAPPENED to unjustifiably occupy part of the one and only Hellenic Macedonia does not give you any right to call yourself a Macedonian.

One day you WILL HAVE to allow your thick brainwashed skulls to be penetrated with this simple equation:
MACEDONIA=GREECE. And since you are not Greeks by any standards you have nothing to do with Macedonia. You are Slavs, Bulgars, Albanians, Turkish offsprings and i dont know what else. Period. Stick to what you got and please try resolving your inferiority complexes and identity issues.

If you dont, i am sure a conflict will be unavoidable and i bet my Macedonian buttocks that none of you "offsprings of Alexander the Great" are willing or able to cope with something like that.

Make no mistake (as George-Idiot-Bush says, yeah, the guy that backs up your sorry asses) that Greece will eventually abandon one day the chicken-shit policy it's been following for decades now. Then you will loose, and we will gain what is rightuflly ours. The name Macedonia and whatever comes with it.

and with those optimistic thoughts....i salute you my Macedonian brother....

[Tsontos]

A lot of people on this forum have asked why do we call ourselfs "macedonians" ??!??
Ladies and Gentelmen of this forum.. I will now try to explane you why..
But please don't change the words (don't moderate it), because my thought won't be understood...

----
first of all I want to tell you that I don't belive in our connection with ancient macedonia.... But we have other connection with macedonia, that nobady can't dennie....
---

Thanks in advance...

We all know that in the territorial division of the Ottoman Empire under the
administrative teritory of "Macedonia" included todays north Greece, The Pirin part of Macedonia (Bulgaria), and the Vardar part of Macedonia (wich we call "Republic of Macedonia" and you call it "FYROM"....

This is a map of the Ottoman province of Macedonia:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3913/macedoniaottomanpo9.jpg

And for the Slavs living in Macedonia, the love was unmeasyrable..
In every song, in every text, in every folk story they were using the name Macedonia, macedonian, makedontsi, makedonki...

For 200 years all of the folk songs include the word macedonia, macedonian....

I admit, that thier ethnical concience was a "tradable commodity" - something like todays political parties...

the most of the slavs of Macedonia (ottoman province from Skopia to Salonica) or about 70% were under the Bulgarian Exarchate.. That's why they said: we are bulgarians, the other 30 % were under the greek patriarchate, and they felt like greeks.. But the love thowards their land was
much much much more powerful then their national identity...

that's why after 1945 both grekomans (even in 1945 there were grekoman villages in Krushevo and monastir and gevgelia) and both serbomans and both bulgaromans decided to unite under the umbrella of "MAKEDONISM"...
Yes for the first time in 1945 the makedonism was institutionalised...

And those slavophon greeks that were upressed by Metaxas and that fought in ELAS and refuged to Yugoslavia became "macedonians" too..

That's why I think that we too have the right to call ourselfs "macedonians"

Because how can't we when all of our folk songs are sang about "Macedonian land", "macedonian girl", e.t.c.


Tsakalaroff, you know as well as i do that there was no such thing as an "Ottoman province of Macedonia", only different villayets with other names. look it up. that map is clear;y skopjian propaganda

[Vergian Pride]

What I really think of my ethnic is that we're was originally descended from the Srbjians where we was immigrants that wanted Thessaloniki, now that caused a offspring country called Macedonia, (FYROM) in hopes of creating propaganda to convince the United Nations that we're the true Macedonians and Greeks have brainwashed the Aegean Macedonians so we could gain control of the Greek province of Macedonia.

However I don't believe in that. I believe that I am a Serbian, our cultures and our languages are simlair so that FYROM shall give up it's false name and become one with Srbija (Serbia) in result we would be able to develop our natural cultural identity as a true one with our proud Serbian flag flying over Skopje in the province of Krusevia.

That will give a peaceful conclusion to the whole damned "Macedonian Question".

[Christov]

Oh, my God!

[Vergian Pride]

Oh, my God!


What is it?

[Christov]

Friend, I will leave your ideas about linguistic similarities without comment. But the idea for changes of political borders is destructive. Remember, no one will allow it! I’m not “baba Vanga” or Nostradamus, but nevertheless I am right, don’t you see?!

[pankration]

Altering borders ALWAYS leads to conflicts. Forcing people to move in the name of establishing new countries etc. is only asking them to rebel. There's already too much bloodshed in the world.

[Komitadji]

What I really think of my ethnic is that we're was originally descended from the Srbjians

I believe that I am a Serbian, our cultures and our languages are simlair so that FYROM shall give up it's false name and become one with Srbija (Serbia)


Greeks werealways living in the south parts of Macedonia...
But never have there been Serbians among the indogeneus inhabitants
of Macedonia...

the Serbian minority that lives in Republika Makedonia were brought
there after 1918 in order to help the assimilation of the local population.
by the serbian authorities...

[Slayer]

Greeks werealways living in the south parts of Macedonia...
But never have there been Serbians among the indogeneus inhabitants
of Macedonia...

the Serbian minority that lives in Republika Makedonia were brought
there after 1918 in order to help the assimilation of the local population.
by the serbian authorities...

Republika Makedonia does not exist :nono:

[Komitadji]

Republika Makedonia does not exist :nono:

I'm saying "Republika Makedonia", because don't want to make someone
angry by saying "The Republic of Macedonia".

In my posts I don't call your northern neighbour by the name "Macedonia",
because I respect your feelings... But I also don't say "fyrom" because that
insults mu feelings..

That's why I say Republika Makedonia.. Thus nobody is affected

[Slayer]

I'm saying "Republika Makedonia", because don't want to make someone
angry by saying "The Republic of Macedonia".

In my posts I don't call your northern neighbour by the name "Macedonia",
because I respect your feelings... But I also don't say "fyrom" because that
insults mu feelings..

That's why I say Republika Makedonia.. Thus nobody is affected


I am affected because the Greek government and the Australian government do not recognise a republika Makedonia, so FYROM is what your leaders agreed to then FYROM is what you should be calling this country.

[Komitadji]

the Greek government and the Australian government do not recognise a republika Makedonia

Maybe they don't recognise the constitutional name, but they do
recognise the language... I have relatives that live there..
Their children learn makedonski language (i'm not saying macedonian not
to make you nervous). Yes, Australia is a multi-cultural society. Every community learnes its own language in school. There are TV and radio
emissions on makedonski language..

Do you agree with this..
You know that I am not lying..

[Tsontos]

officially they dont recognise the language but your right that often government institutions will provide publications in "Macedonian". theres no bulgarians in australia to make joint "macedonian-Bulgarian" publications.

by the way your signature is wrong. In the Macedonian language it should be:

με τουφέκι στο χέρι
και Μακεδονία στην καρδιά

[Slayer]

Maybe they don't recognise the constitutional name, but they do
recognise the language... I have relatives that live there..
Their children learn makedonski language (i'm not saying macedonian not
to make you nervous). Yes, Australia is a multi-cultural society. Every community learnes its own language in school. There are TV and radio
emissions on makedonski language..

Do you agree with this..
You know that I am not lying..

I know exactly what happens in Australia..Now, this is a Macedonian forum so unless you agree that the only Macedonians speak Greek, are Greeks and always have been Greeks then you will not be refering to the Language of FYROM as Macedonian, nor the country, nor the people..You are more then welcome to go to a FYROM forum and be a Macedonian there.

[Komitadji]

officially they dont recognise the language but your right that often government institutions will provide publications in "Macedonian". theres no bulgarians in australia to make joint "macedonian-Bulgarian" publications.

Yes Ktonos dear... But, by giving the right of the little makedonski children
to learn their language in primary schools, and to have radio and tv emssions
and newspapers in their language, the Australian government indirectly recognises the language...

We the juridicialy educated call it "AD HOCK RECOGNITION", or even "DE FACTO" in these case...

by the way your signature is wrong. In the Macedonian language it should be:

με τουφέκι στο χέρι
και Μακεδονία στην καρδιά

:notworthy

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[Istor]

Stovoi, Scupi, Struma... weren't Macedonian cities but Peonian and Dardanian. Scupi, modern Skopje was Dardanian capital, while Veles (Vilazora) was Peonian one. When Macedonians had Vilazora they called it Orthopolis. Because Macedonians named after Greek names ALL the cities they built or renamed.

Other Macedonian cities in Pelagonia, now in FYROM, were Alalkomenai, Atalanta, Idomenai, Gortys, Petra (modern Petric), Parorveelia (what a name!!!), ...

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky