Skopjian symbols and flags - Overview of various symbols adopted over time

[Tsontos]

The Skopjians have had various flags and symbols both adopted by them and imposed on them beginning in the 19th century. A breif explanation is provided for them here.




The flag of Krushevo, Ilinden and the VMRO
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/7/71/Mk%211913.gif

-The proposed national flag from 1903, during the Republic of Krushevo and Ilinden uprisings. It became a symbol used by both pro-Bulgarian Slavs in Macedonia and Vardar and also the minority of Macedonists who favoured an independent Macedonia. It was the flag of the IMRO (VMRO), the organisation which orchestrated the failed Illinden uprising and which consisted of both Slavs with a Bulgarian consciouness and also Macedonists in the left wing of the group.

-Interestingly the Bulgarian VMRO (a modern right-wing Bulgarian political party) Flag is identical. The colours Black and Red were the colours representing Bulgarian aspirations in Macedonia and are now prevelent colours for the Skopjians. It is important that prior to 1991 and FYROM's independence and the adoption of a red and yellow national flag, red and black were considered the colours of the Skopjians while still part of Yugoslavia. For example, a Skopjian soccer club, Preston Lions, had red and black as its colours until 1991 when it changed them to yellow and red.








The Socialist Republic of Macedonia
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/a/a4/Yu-mk-46.gif

-The flag of the 'Socialist Republic of Macedonia', adopted on 31 December 1946. It was replaced with the red Vergina sun flag in 1991 when FYROM ceded from Yugoslavia.







'Vergina Sun Flag'
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/4/43/Mk_1992.gif

-When independence was obtained in 1992, the flag of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia was retained until it was replaced with the flag with the so-called sun of Vergina. The flag was eventually scraped because of pressure from Greece on the grounds that it violated the rights of Greek Macedonians and falsely lay claim to the Hellenic legacy of Macedonia.

-A note about the Vergina sun and why the Greeks objected:

Vergina is a region of Greece. The Vergina Sun was found on a gold larnax in the main burial chamber of Philip, located at Vergina, Pieria, Greece. The larnax (gold casket) was discovered by Professor Manolis Andronikos in 1977 identified as containing the remains of Philip II had a symbol of a sun or star on its lid, and this Vergina Sun has been adopted as a symbol of Greek Macedonia.







Current Flag of F.Y.R.O.M
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/8/86/Skop_flag.gif


-The current flag of F.Y.R.O.M was proposed after the banning of the previous Vergina flag which was found to be violating the rights of Greek Macedonia on 5 October 1995.

-The flag current flag is considered to be a combination of the Vergina Sun and the sun rays found on the communist coat of Arms of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia shown below:







Coat of Arms of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/0/0f/Yu%29mk946.gif


-The coat of arms of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia since 1945. The coat of arms is still retained by F.Y.R.O.M and was not changed in 1991 when the flag was changed.








The Skopjian Lion - Adaptation of the Bulgarian Lion


http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/c/c1/Lion.JPG
Skopjian symbol



http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/f/f6/Cz-42.gif
Czech coat of Arms http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/cz-42-.html



-A prevailent symbol adopted by the Skopjians is the crowned (and sometimes not crowned) Lion. It is both commonly used by Skopjians and also representative of Bulgaria's historic aspirations in Macedonia and Vardar. It is falsely claimed by Skopjian revisionists to be a "Macedonian" symbol and the same symbol as the lion of Hercules and Alexander in antiquity. The claim can only be regarded as romantic revisionism for reasons explained below:

-The Lion standing on its hind legs is a common symbol throughout Europe, for example it is almost identical to the lion used in the Czech coat of arms and also the logo used by Holden car company and it is also the same symbol used in Bulgaria for centuries before the emergence of first 'Macedonists' who used the term 'macedonian' in an ethnic rather than geographic in the 19th century. It is also still a commonly used symbol in Bulgaria today.

-The purpose of this section is not to debate the very first origins of a symbol so commonly found throughout Europe as pinpointing the exact origins and the first "owners" of the symbol would be a difficult task for exactly the reason that its so common. The purpose is to present the fact that all evidence however points to the fact that the Skopjians use the symbol because of their ethnic Bulgarian origins.

-Logically, as Encyclopedia Brittanica cited in 1899 that '"Almost all independent authorities, however, agree that the bulk of the Slavonic population of Macedonia is Bulgarian"', the lion is considered to have been adopted by the Skopjian Macedonists because of their Bulgarian origin. The Lion was representative of Bulgarian Slavs in Macedonia and the yearn for a Bulgarian Macedonia.

-The symbol became representative of Bulgarian interests Macedonia and was often accompanied by the word 'Makedonija' in cyrillic to represent the claim of a 'Bulgarian Macedonia'(See thumbnails below)

-The Lion is also the symbol of two seperate modern political parties, one being the VMRO of Bulgaria, and the other being the VMRO-DPMNE, a party in modern FYROM. Neither party have a continuity with the original VMRO of the early 20th century, while both laying claim to its legacy.




http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/3/33/Vmro.JPG
Modern political party in FYROM, the VMRO-DPMNE, their website: http://www.vmro-dpmne.org.mk/english/index.asp




http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/e/e8/Bmro.JPG
Modern political party in Bulgaria, the VMRO, their website: http://www.vmro.org/





http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/2/25/Gerb8.gif
A graphic showing four different symbols representing the Bulgarian nationalist dream of uniting the four regions, Thrace, Moesia, Moravia and as well as the bottom left crowned lion representing Bulgarian Macedonia.





http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/5/53/Bulgariansym.JPG
Historical Bulgarian coat of arms compared with modern Skopjian organisation

[Robert]

The above post contains flagrant errors. I am writing to correct the historical record - if there is suffucuent freedom of speech on this forum to allow me to do so.

The Macedonian Coat-of-arms has consistently throughout history been a yellow, crowned, two-tailed lion on a red background! In Heraldry, it is considered the "symbol of the land" (of Macedonia). The crown is a symbol of sovereignty and integrity.

http://www.mymacedonia.net/links/images/grb1.jpg


By contrast, the "Bulgarian" lion is red on a yellow background (in Heraldry, different colors mean different symbols). The "Bulgarian" Coat-of-arms varied throughout history: the original horse tail aside, the Bulgarians adopted the head of a bull with a cross between the horns. Then, they changed to two crossed wooden sticks with black heads on their end. Then, they adopted three crowns placed horizontally. Then, a standing red one-tailed lion. And lastly, they adopted a three one-tailed lions as their Coat-of-arms.

The Serbs had also been debating a long time whether to adopt a lion, a two headed eagle, or a Christian cross with a characteristic four "C" inscription. Today, they have the two headed eagle as their Coat-of-arms.

The Greeks have had even more discontinuity: Originally, they adopted a depiction of Athena with an owl. Then they adopted a phoenix and added it to the Coat-of-arms. The they adopted a Bavarian-Prussian symbol: a royal crest with two crowned lions holding the coat of arms with the royal crown, but replaed it with a Danish symbol. Since 1924, their Coat-of-arms is a white cross on a blue background. However, the Danish symbol was re-adopted with the restoration of the Monarchy.

Lastly, no country or nation have monopoly on the use of a lion as their Coat-of-arms of on their national flag. Nearly two thirds of the countries in the world use a variation of a lion. The yellow lion as depicted above is a Macedonian symbol and as a matter of fact has nothing to do with Greece or Bulgaria.

http://www.mymacedonia.net/links/coats.htm

[Tsontos]

Lastly, no country or nation have monopoly on the use of a lion as their Coat-of-arms of on their national flag. Nearly, two thirds of the countries in the world use a variation of a lion. The yellow lion as depicted above is a Macedonian symbol and as a matter of fact has nothing to do with Greece or Bulgaria.


Voulgaroktonos had previously said:

-The purpose of this section is not to debate the very first origins of a symbol so commonly found throughout Europe as pinpointing the exact origins and the first "owners" of the symbol would be a difficult task for exactly the reason that its so common. The purpose is to present the fact that all evidence however points to the fact that the Skopjians use the symbol because of their ethnic Bulgarian origins.


Furthermore, no-one is doubting that Greeks didnt have a coat of arms given that we did not have a state with which to carry it. Indeed several symbols were adopted by the newly formed Greek state once the Danish monarch had been appointed to the Greek thrown. However you might have realised that between 1821 and 1832 there was quite a bit of fighting being waged in Greece and the standards used by the fighters were red/white and blue/white jacks, and that the current coat of arms as its known today was the most prevailent among the Greek revolutionaries.

Now; my original point about how a country adopts a 'coat of arms', my intention was never to suggest that the Bulgarians should have a monopoly on such a generic symbol. My intention was to point out the exact origins of the symbol and how it has come to be adopted. Thats what makes me laugh when you matter-of-factly state that "The Macedonian Coat-of-arms has consistently throughout history been a yellow, crowned, two-tailed lion on a red background!" . Which "Macedonian" state first carried this symbol. From whence was there a Slavic Macedonian state and ethnicity who could have adopted such a symbol?

And if you claim the state of Bulgarian Tsar Samuil as the first Slavic Macedonian state you will not be helping your cause; beleive me. So your task has been set. Since according to you the symbol has been consistently used by "Macedonians" throughout history, can you please give us information on this state? Or maybe you slavic descendents of the ancient Macedonians didnt have a state per'se. Maybe you used this symbol continuously and "consistently" as you put it throughout the middle ages without ever having a state


Nice source and picture by the way.

[Robert]

... my original point about how a country adopts a 'coat of arms', my intention was never to suggest that the Bulgarians should have a monopoly on such a generic symbol. My intention was to point out the exact origins of the symbol and how it has come to be adopted. Thats what makes me laugh when you matter-of-factly state that "The Macedonian Coat-of-arms has consistently throughout history been a yellow, crowned, two-tailed lion on a red background!" . Which "Macedonian" state first carried this symbol. From whence was there a Slavic Macedonian state and ethnicity who could have adopted such a symbol?

Well, I doubt that was your intention,:-) but be as it may, the Heraldic signs can be genaral or specific, can represent a person, family, an entity (like a city), people, land/country. A people don't have to have a state to have a heraldic signs representing them. Today, even corporations have heraldry and may have state-like status even though they are stateless.

The point was that Macedonia has been a ethno-geographical and historical entity, and has had a Heraldic sign in continuous use at least since the 15 century regardless of which state rulled it - the Roman or Ottoman empires, or Serbian or Bulgraian kingdoms, or whether there were autonimous state formations on its soil.

Here are some examples from throughout the 17th century:

http://www.makedonskaistorija.com/media/1/20050715-Altahanoviot.jpg


Insignia Regni Macedoniae

http://www.makedonskaistorija.com/media/1/20050717-MarkoSkoroevich.jpg



http://www.makedonskaistorija.com/media/1/20050719-Fojnica.jpg


http://heraldry.mol.com.mk/images/grbmk303_small.jpg

The fact that under pressure from Greece, from the EU and other powerful states Macedonia changeed its flag (at a time when it was fighting for survival), it doesn't mean that Macedonians don't use their symbols. For example, the Macedonian World Congress has had the Macedonian sun and the lion as its simbols since the inception:

http://www.smk-wmc.org/

[HellenicPride]

Well, I doubt that was your intention,:-) but be as it may, the Heraldic signs can be genaral or specific, can represent a person, family, an entity (like a city), people, land/country. A people don't have to have a state to have a heraldic signs representing them. Today, even corporations have heraldry and may have state-like status even though they are stateless.

The point was that Macedonia has been a ethno-geographical and historical entity, and has had a Heraldic sign in continuous use at least since the 15 century regardless of which state rulled it - the Roman or Ottoman empires, or Serbian or Bulgraian kingdoms, or whether there were autonimous state formations on its soil.

Here are some examples from throughout the 17th century:

http://www.makedonskaistorija.com/media/1/20050715-Altahanoviot.jpg


Insignia Regni Macedoniae

http://www.makedonskaistorija.com/media/1/20050717-MarkoSkoroevich.jpg



http://www.makedonskaistorija.com/media/1/20050719-Fojnica.jpg


http://heraldry.mol.com.mk/images/grbmk303_small.jpg

The fact that under pressure from Greece, from the EU and other powerful states Macedonia changeed its flag (at a time when it was fighting for survival), it doesn't mean that Macedonians don't use their symbols. For example, the Macedonian World Congress has had the Macedonian sun and the lion as its simbols since the inception:

http://www.smk-wmc.org/

A request do not refer to them as Macedonia, Greeks are only Macedonian. Refer to them as skopjian or FYROM not Macedonia. They are not recognized as Macedonia to begin with. :nono:

[Amarantos]

The ""Macedonian"" Coat-of-arms has consistently throughout history been a yellow, crowned, two-tailed lion on a red background!
http://www.makedonskaistorija.com/media/1/20050719-Fojnica.jpg

How many tails do you see in this picture.Is there an explanation?

[Tsontos]

Well, I doubt that was your intention

:huh: If my intention was to claim the bulgarians should have a monopoly on the symbol why would i post a picture of the czech coat of arms with the same symbol? Its pretty obvious my intention is to point out that FYROM has origins only as ethnic Bulgarians:lol:

Here are some examples from throughout the 17th century:

http://www.makedonskaistorija.com/media/1/20050715-Altahanoviot.jpg


Insignia Regni Macedoniae

http://www.makedonskaistorija.com/media/1/20050717-MarkoSkoroevich.jpg



http://www.makedonskaistorija.com/media/1/20050719-Fojnica.jpg


http://heraldry.mol.com.mk/images/grbmk303_small.jpg

The fact that under pressure from Greece, from the EU and other powerful states Macedonia changeed its flag (at a time when it was fighting for survival), it doesn't mean that Macedonians don't use their symbols. For example, the Macedonian World Congress has had the Macedonian sun and the lion as its simbols since the inception:

http://www.smk-wmc.org/
[/QUOTE]


Voulgaroktonos had previously said:



http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/2/25/Gerb8.gif
A graphic showing four different symbols representing the Bulgarian nationalist dream of uniting the four regions, Thrace, Moesia, Moravia and as well as the bottom left crowned lion representing Bulgarian Macedonia.



By the way, where exactly did that first picture come from? what is the source? I actually speak German, did a search and could not find such a pic.
I smell a fraud here.. did some searching but my German sucks... All I managed to come up with is this page that presents all (I think) coats of arms presented in the Siebmacher Wappenbuch...but didn't find anyone named "Macedoniani" nor "Ohmuchevich" as your site claims..

[Truth Bearer]

So what have we found about these coat of arms??

[Lord]

That the original Origin were Bulgarian...(If we consider that even the Bulgarians learne about Coats of arms from the Byazantines...)
And that the coats/emblems used by Vardars (skopians) Slaws...are orgined from Bulgrians...

[Teukros]

Teukros you Banned for one week ( much eniently ) .
Any kind of Nazist symbols are now allowed .!!!:angry:

An excuse I post that idiot just for fun nothing more.the same they do to us