Mycenaean Epirus

[olvios]

A Historical Greek Reader: Mycenaean to the Koine,by Stephen Colvin,ISBN-10: 0199226601,2008,Page 40,"... (innovations) until the post-Mycenaean period.' In the late second millennium the proto- Aeolians seem to have occupied the regions between Epirus and Thessaly, ..."


Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 4,"... 9mbracian V r 0 10 20 30 km I Gulf 32 Figure 1: Map of Epirus showing the locations of known sites with Mycenaean remains. ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 6: "... and the mechanisms by which such interactions took place. The strongest evidence for Mycenaean presence in Epirus is found in the coastal zone of the lower Acheron River, ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 17: "... The Mycenaean Presence in Southwestern Epirus Taking into account the discoveries of the Nikopolis Project, remains of Mycenaean provenience or inspiration are known

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 18: "... and more gently on the south and west. From this acropolis-like settlement comes the strongest evidence for Mycenaean presence in Epirus. A circuit wall employing Cyclopean masonry, muCh of which can still be traced, ..."


Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 22: "... a fragmentary condition, it appears that the assemblage conforms in chronological and formal terms to Mycenaean pottery already known from Epirus. The kylix is the most commonly identifiable shape, with fewer sherds belonging to stirrup jars, kraters, cups, and other shapes. ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 23: "... at Mazaraki in the interior of northern Epirus, of Aegean pottery and bronze objects as burial goods in Gist graves (Wardle 1977, 177, fig. 10 nos. 476, 477; ...


Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001, Page 24: "... There is no reason to imagine that these constructions in Epirus would have been among the first, although construction dates in the first half of LH IIIB are not unlikely. ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 27: "... GLYKYS LIMIN /23 of domesticated cattle are found in excavated contexts in Epirus from late Neolithic times (Douzough and Zachos 1994, 17); Ephyra and the adjacent Nekyomanteion site have produced them alongside those ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 30: "... or luxury items of Mycenaean type-imported pottery and bronze weapons and utilitarian objects-were deposited primarily in graves and hoards throughout Epirus, ...

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 34: "... desires of those who possessed them to constrain or mobilize social action. In the case of Mycenaean engagement in coastal Epirus, ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Table of Contents: "... A Mycenaean Port of Trade in Southern Epirus?

[olvios]

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001
Page 23,"... LH IIIA2 (the second half of the fourteenth century) that Mycenaean objects began to appear at inland settlements such as Dodona, and to the end of LH IIIA or the first years of LI-I IIIB we may assign the earliest use, ..."

[olvios]

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/EpirusMycynaen.jpg

Μυκηναϊκός πολιτισμός στην 'Ηπειρο

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 4,"... 9mbracian V r 0 10 20 30 km I Gulf 32 Figure 1: Map of Epirus showing the locations of known sites with Mycenaean remains. ..."

[Flipper]

Excellent Olvios!

[Peace Lover]

" The Greeks call Illyrians those people who live from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the Ister(Danube) river , beyond Thrace and Macedonia " , Illyrian Wars , Appian - Father of the Roman history .
1-Epirus = Illyrian ,
2-Paeonia = Illyrian ,
3-Moesia = Illyrian ,
4-Pannonia = Illyrian ,
5-Dardania = Illyrian .
:clapping:

[Cadmus]

" The Greeks call Illyrians those people who live from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the Ister(Danube) river , beyond Thrace and Macedonia " , Illyrian Wars , Appian - Father of the Roman history .
1-Epirus = Illyrian ,
2-Paeonia = Illyrian ,
3-Moesia = Illyrian ,
4-Pannonia = Illyrian ,
5-Dardania = Illyrian .
:clapping:

Hey you forgot Macedonia+Illyrian right?:dry:

[Peace Lover]

Hey you forgot Macedonia+Illyrian right?:dry:

No !
They live : beyond Thrace and Macedonia !

[Andrew]

" The Greeks call Illyrians those people who live from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the Ister(Danube) river , beyond Thrace and Macedonia " , Illyrian Wars , Appian - Father of the Roman history .
1-Epirus = Illyrian ,
:clapping:

Are you sure ??

Strabo (7,7,323):

So then, in travelling this road from the region of Epidamnus and Apollonia, one has on the right the Epeirotic tribes whose coasts are washed by the Sicilian Sea and extend as far as the Ambracian Gulf,415 and, on the left, the mountains of Illyria [...]

Herodotus (6,126-7):


Then all those of the Hellenes who had pride either in themselves or in their high descent, came as wooers, and for them Cleisthenes had a running- course and a wrestling-place made and kept them expressly for their use.

127. From Italy came Smindyrides the son of Hippocrates of Sybaris, who of all men on earth reached the highest point of luxury (now Sybaris at this time was in the height of its prosperity), and Damasos of Siris, the son of that Amyris who was called the Wise; these came from Italy: from the Ionian gulf came Amphimnestos the son of Epistrophos of Epidamnos, this man from the Ionian gulf: from Aitolia came Males, the brother of that Titormos who surpassed all the Hellenes in strength and who fled from the presence of men to the furthest extremities of the Aitolian land: from Peloponnesus, Leokedes the son of Pheidon the despot of the Argives, that Pheidon who established for the Peloponnesians the measures which they use, and who went beyond all other Hellenes in wanton insolence, since he removed from their place the presidents of the games appointed by the Eleians and himself presided over the games at Olympia,--his son, I say, and Amiantos the son of Lycurgos an Arcadian from Trapezus, and Laphanes an Azanian from the city of Paios, son of that Euphorion who (according to the story told in Arcadia) received the Dioscuroi as guests in his house and from thenceforth was wont to entertain all men who came, and Onomastos the son of Agaios of Elis; these, I say, came from Peloponnesus itself: from Athens came Megacles the son of that Alcmaion who went to Crœsus, and besides him Hippocleides the son of Tisander, one who surpassed the other Athenians in wealth and in comeliness of form: from Eretria, which at that time was flourishing, came Lysanias, he alone from Eubœa: from Thessalia came Diactorides of Crannon, one of the family of the Scopadai: and from the Molossians, Alcon

[Peace Lover]

Are you sure ??

Strabo (7,7,323):

Right the Gegs(Illyrians) in the left(NORTH) of Genus(Shkumbin) river and the Tosks(Epirotes) on the right(SOUTH) !

Herodotus (6,126-7):

" Greece starts at Aetolia and Acarnania , because in the north live the stranger Epirotic tribes " , Herodotos (Please don't latinized the Greek names , cuz a hate it) !
:clap2:

[Andrew]

Right the Gegs(Illyrians) in the left(NORTH) of Genus(Shkumbin) river and the Tosks(Epirotes) on the right(SOUTH) !



" Greece starts at Aetolia and Acarnania , because in the north live the stranger Epirotic tribes " , Heodotos (Please don't latinized the Greek names , cuz a hate it) !
:clap2:

BTW it's Herodotos not Heodotos ...and since there is english speaking audience ..it's polite to use the name that they know !

[Andrew]

Strabo (7,7,327):

But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, 327at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar,451 although, they add, some speak both languages

So Macedonians and Epeirotans spoke the same language and among them there were some hellenized Illyrians (bilinguals)

Titus Livius (31,29,2):

Aetolas , Acarnanas , Macedonas EIUSDEM LINGUAE HOMINES
...men of the same language !!!

So Macedonians , Epeirotans , Aetolians and Acarnanians spoke the same language ...what was that ?? ..oo lets see didn't the Aetolians fought on the trojan war as Greeks ? (Iliad II 638-44):

«Thoas, son of Andraemon, commanded the Aetolians, who dwelt in Pleuron, Olenus, Pylene, Chalcis by the sea, and rocky Calydon, for the great king Oeneus had now no sons living, and was himself dead, as was also golden-haired Meleager, who had been set over the Aetolians to be their king. And with Thoas there came forty ships.»

And who made the albanians (Gegs or Tosks) Illyrians ...The Albanian language is a Satem IE and the Illyrian (what's left of it) orientates scholars to a centum IE one. I think that the Albanians are of Thraco-Dacian (Satem)descent that came to the Illyrian region in late antiquity.

[Peace Lover]

Andrew : Strabo (7,7,327):



So Macedonians and Epeirotans spoke the same language and among them there were some hellenized Illyrians (bilinguals)
How many times the Macedons were called STRANGERS ?
How may time the Epirotans were called strangers or Illyrians ?
Why Pouqueville say that in the half-life the Aetolians and Akarnanians call theselves Albanians and also call Aetolia-Akarnania " Albania " ?

Titus Livius (31,29,2):



So Macedonians , Epeirotans , Aetolians and Acarnanians spoke the same language ...what was that ?? ..oo lets see didn't the Aetolians fought on the trojan war as Greeks ? (Iliad II 638-44):

Didn't Ali Pasha fight for the Greeks ?
Did he was Greek ?
Didn't the Arboreans fight for Greece ?
Are they Graecophone ?

And who made the albanians (Gegs or Tosks) Illyrians ...The Albanian language is a Satem IE and the Illyrian (what's left of it) orientates scholars to a centum IE one. I think that the Albanians are of Thraco-Dacian (Satem)descent that came to the Illyrian region in late antiquity.
Albanian language ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language)

[Andrew]

How many times the Macedons were called STRANGERS ?
How may time the Epirotans were called strangers or Illyrians ?

Living in Italy I have two examples for your questions :

How many times a day the Northern Italians call Southern Italians "Terroni" (Dirty) and "Africani" and how many times a day do Southern Italians call the northern Italians "Svizzeri" ("swiss") ???

Now I specificaly live in Ferrara , near the river Po. Po separates the regions Emilia Romagna and Veneto. Ferrara is 2km souther than Po and Rovigo is 2km northier ..The Rovigotti call the Ferraresi "magna caplac" (eaters of Capelacci) and the Ferraresi have a proverb that says in the Ferrarese dialect "le mei un mort in ca che un Ruvgot che ti bus la port" ("è meglio un morto in casa che un Rovigoto che ti bussa la porta" in Current,"official" Italian and in English it is "it's better having a dead man in the house than having a Rovigoto ringing your doorbell !!!").

[Spartan]

Here is a simple answer to where Illyria ends!

The Periplous of Pseudo-Skylax from the 5th century B.C.E.

From his work:

26. TAULANTIOI. And of the Taulantians is the Illyric nation, in which Epidamnos is, and a river flows beside the city which has the name Palamnos. And out of Epidamnos to Apollonia, a Hellenic city, is a road of two days. And Apollonia is distant from the sea 50 stades, and the river Aias flows beside the city. And from Apollonia into Amantia is 320 stades. And the Aias river from the Pindos Mountain flows beside Apollonia. [And] towards [Amantia] inland, somewhat into the Ionian gulf is Orikos. It comes down from Orikia to the sea 90 stades, and from Amantia 60 stades. Sharing a border with all these in the interior are Atintanes above Orikia and Karia* as far as Dodonia. And in the Kestris territory is said to be a pedion, name Erytheia. Here Geryones is said to come and pasture his oxen. By these places are the Keraunian mountains in Epeiros, and there is an island beside these places, a small one, which has the name Sason. From here to Orikos city is a coastal voyage of a day’s third part.

27. ORIKOI. And the Orikoi occupy [. . .] of the Amanian territory.] And the [Amantians], from Boulinoi as far as here, are Illyrians. And the mouth of the Ionian gulf is from Keraunian mountains as far as cape Iapygia. And up to Hydroëis city in Iapygia from the Keraunian mountains, the stades of the voyage across are about 500, [which] is the mouth of the gulf: and the places inside are the Ionian gulf. There are many harbours in the Adriatic: and the same thing is the Adriatic and the Ionian.
Page 4

28. CHAONES. And after Illyrians, Chaonians. And Chaonia has good harbours: and the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of Chaonia is a half of a day.29. KORKYRA. And by Chaonia is an island, Korkyra, and a Hellenic city in it, having three harbours by the city: of these the one is enclosed. And Korkyra belongs also to Thesprotia more than Chaonia. And I return again onto the mainland, whence I turned aside.30. THESPROTIANS. And after Chaonia are the Thesprotian nation. And these too live in villages: and this territory also has good harbours. Here is a harbour, which has name Elaia. Into this the harbour the river Acheron emits: and there is lake Acherousia, out of which the Acheron fiver flows. And the coastal voyage of Thesprotias is a half of a day.31. KASSOPIANS. And after Thesprotia is the nation Kassopia. And these too live in villages. And these live beside as far as into the Anaktoric gulf. And the coastal voyage of the Kassopians’ territory is a half of a day; and the Anaktoric gulf is a little less from its mouth as far as into the inner end, 120 stades. And the mouth has width 4 stades.32. MOLOTTIA. And after Kassopia are the Molottian nation. And these live in villages: and they come down only a little here to the sea, and largely into the interior. And the coastal voyage of Molottian territory is of 40 stades




So Peace-Lover,

what does that say about where the Illyrians ended? He clearly divides the Illyrians from the Epirotes!

So the Illyrians DO NOT = Epirotes.

[Spartan]

How many times the Macedons were called STRANGERS ?
How may time the Epirotans were called strangers or Illyrians ?
Why Pouqueville say that in the half-life the Aetolians and Akarnanians call theselves Albanians and also call Aetolia-Akarnania " Albania " ?


Didn't Ali Pasha fight for the Greeks ?
Did he was Greek ?
Didn't the Arboreans fight for Greece ?
Are they Graecophone ?


Albanian language ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language)

You are mixing time frames and cultures! You started by discussing the Illyrians and Ancient Epirotes and now you are talking about a time more than 2000 years later! If you want to discuss 18th, 19th and 20th centuries Albania and Epirus then start a new thread otherwise please remian on topic and time-frame!

[Peace Lover]

Here is a simple answer to where Illyria ends!

The Periplous of Pseudo-Skylax from the 5th century B.C.E.

From his work:

26. TAULANTIOI. And of the Taulantians is the Illyric nation, in which Epidamnos is, and a river flows beside the city which has the name Palamnos. And out of Epidamnos to Apollonia, a Hellenic city, is a road of two days. And Apollonia is distant from the sea 50 stades, and the river Aias flows beside the city. And from Apollonia into Amantia is 320 stades. And the Aias river from the Pindos Mountain flows beside Apollonia. [And] towards [Amantia] inland, somewhat into the Ionian gulf is Orikos. It comes down from Orikia to the sea 90 stades, and from Amantia 60 stades. Sharing a border with all these in the interior are Atintanes above Orikia and Karia* as far as Dodonia. And in the Kestris territory is said to be a pedion, name Erytheia. Here Geryones is said to come and pasture his oxen. By these places are the Keraunian mountains in Epeiros, and there is an island beside these places, a small one, which has the name Sason. From here to Orikos city is a coastal voyage of a day’s third part.

27. ORIKOI. And the Orikoi occupy [. . .] of the Amanian territory.] And the [Amantians], from Boulinoi as far as here, are Illyrians. And the mouth of the Ionian gulf is from Keraunian mountains as far as cape Iapygia. And up to Hydroëis city in Iapygia from the Keraunian mountains, the stades of the voyage across are about 500, [which] is the mouth of the gulf: and the places inside are the Ionian gulf. There are many harbours in the Adriatic: and the same thing is the Adriatic and the Ionian.
Page 4

28. CHAONES. And after Illyrians, Chaonians. And Chaonia has good harbours: and the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of Chaonia is a half of a day.29. KORKYRA. And by Chaonia is an island, Korkyra, and a Hellenic city in it, having three harbours by the city: of these the one is enclosed. And Korkyra belongs also to Thesprotia more than Chaonia. And I return again onto the mainland, whence I turned aside.30. THESPROTIANS. And after Chaonia are the Thesprotian nation. And these too live in villages: and this territory also has good harbours. Here is a harbour, which has name Elaia. Into this the harbour the river Acheron emits: and there is lake Acherousia, out of which the Acheron fiver flows. And the coastal voyage of Thesprotias is a half of a day.31. KASSOPIANS. And after Thesprotia is the nation Kassopia. And these too live in villages. And these live beside as far as into the Anaktoric gulf. And the coastal voyage of the Kassopians’ territory is a half of a day; and the Anaktoric gulf is a little less from its mouth as far as into the inner end, 120 stades. And the mouth has width 4 stades.32. MOLOTTIA. And after Kassopia are the Molottian nation. And these live in villages: and they come down only a little here to the sea, and largely into the interior. And the coastal voyage of Molottian territory is of 40 stades




So Peace-Lover,

what does that say about where the Illyrians ended? He clearly divides the Illyrians from the Epirotes!

So the Illyrians DO NOT = Epirotes.

AppianUS " Father of the Roman History " in his book of the II cent. A.C. called " Historia Romana " ( Roman History ) : in the paragraph called " Illyrian Wars " starts with : < The Greeks call Illyrians those people who live from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the Ister (Danub) river beyond Thrace and Macedonia > !
So , if exist another Chaonia in India , nothing to say . But if you are talking about the Illyrian Chaonia of Epirus !
:clapping:

You are misunderstanding what Appianus is saying! He is stating that from the territories of the Chaonians and the Thesprotians to the Ister is Illyrian. To simplify this further he is only saying that the land BETWEEN those points is Illyrian. The key word is 'from'. This means from the boundaries of those geographic locations is the Illyrian land.

So you are mistaken to include the Chaonians and Thesprotians.:)

[kostas68]

AppianUS " Father of the Roman History " in his book of the II cent. A.C. called " Historia Romana " ( Roman History ) : in the paragraph called " Illyrian Wars " starts with : < The Greeks call Illyrians those people who live from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the Ister (Danub) river beyond Thrace and Macedonia > !
So , if exist another Chaonia in India , nothing to say . But if you are talking about the Illyrian Chaonia of Epirus !
:clapping:
Do you think that a Roman could know better than a Greek which land called the Greeks Illyria?

[chicagogeorge]

AppianUS " Father of the Roman History " in his book of the II cent. A.C. called " Historia Romana " ( Roman History ) : in the paragraph called " Illyrian Wars " starts with : < The Greeks call Illyrians those people who live from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the Ister (Danub) river beyond Thrace and Macedonia > !
So , if exist another Chaonia in India , nothing to say . But if you are talking about the Illyrian Chaonia of Epirus !
:clapping:

Silly!

The Romans new very well that the Epirotes were Greeks. Just look at how they referred to Pyrros.


XIII. "...Thus the ambassador of Pyrrhus returned; and, when Pyrrhus asked him "what kind of a place he had found Rome to be," Cineas replied, that "he had seen a country of kings, for that all there were such, as Pyrrhus alone was thought to be in Epirus and the rest of Greece."

Eutropius (Abridgment of Roman History) Historiae Romanae Breviarium


Here is what modern historians say about the Chaones (and the other Epirotes)


Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking

Page 284

"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew

adding to the above quote.....


The Cambridge Ancient History - Page 434
by John Boardman - History, Ancient - 1923

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6695/thecambridgeancienthistzc5.jpg

So Peace lover, you need to go argue with the lads over at Cambridge and the archeological findings they go by to make their claims become reality.

[chicagogeorge]

The widely held belief among historians is that the Dorians originated in Epirus and Macedonia


http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3663/ahistoryofthegreeklanguho1.jpg


and even Borza agrees with this...

In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon - Page 78
by Eugene N. Borza - History - 1990

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/6159/borzashawdowsofolympustt3.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/256/epirotestribalmovemnetspf1.jpg


and from

Epirus Cambridge pg 685 1973

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1914/dorianepiruscambridgepgff8.jpg


Encyclopedia of Ancient Greece Epirus 2006

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/162/encyclopediaofancientgryj8.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/912/mycenaeanepirusfn8.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

" The Greeks call Illyrians those people who live from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the Ister(Danube) river , beyond Thrace and Macedonia " , Illyrian Wars , Appian - Father of the Roman history .
1-Epirus = Illyrian ,
2-Paeonia = Illyrian ,
3-Moesia = Illyrian ,
4-Pannonia = Illyrian ,
5-Dardania = Illyrian .
:clapping:

Was just reading excerpts and thought of this thread..... It is clrear from all angles that Epritotes were NEVER considered Illyrians.


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/374/wilkesappianws8.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

AppianUS " Father of the Roman History " in his book of the II cent. A.C. called " Historia Romana " ( Roman History ) : in the paragraph called " Illyrian Wars " starts with : < The Greeks call Illyrians those people who live from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the Ister (Danub) river beyond Thrace and Macedonia > !
So , if exist another Chaonia in India , nothing to say . But if you are talking about the Illyrian Chaonia of Epirus !
:clapping:

You are misunderstanding what Appianus is saying! He is stating that from the territories of the Chaonians and the Thesprotians to the Ister is Illyrian. To simplify this further he is only saying that the land BETWEEN those points is Illyrian. The key word is 'from'. This means from the boundaries of those geographic locations is the Illyrian land.

So you are mistaken to include the Chaonians and Thesprotians.:)


Now look me in the face (through your monitor :)) and tell me with a straight face that the Romans didn't believe that Epirus was a part of Greece :cheers:
......:Epirus and the REST of Greece :yes:

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/2096/eutropiosepirusdv9.jpg

[Theofilos]

Notice how the Skops et al., always scatter after having such evidence slap them in the face? I love it.