Barack Obama thread invaded by Liers

[Astoria]

http://barackobama.wetpaint.com/thread/720684/macedonia?t=anon

Can some ppl from this forum respond to that board with something constructive to say.... looks like fyromian slugs are penetrating the ignorant american public with nonsense once again.

Have fun!!

[Spartan]

Astoria don't worry too much. It seems that Hellenic is doing a great job destroying every one of their claims.

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://barackobama.wetpaint.com/thread/720684/macedonia?t=anon

Can some ppl from this forum respond to that board with something constructive to say.... looks like fyromian slugs are penetrating the ignorant american public with nonsense once again.

Have fun!!

I'll get in there as much as I can. I support Obama...

...And I know the issue...

[Spartan]

I definitely support Obama and have pointed out his stance on FYROM in here and in the Illyria forums. He is one of the biggest hopes for a change of U.S policy on FYROM for the Greeks and the FYROM's know it! They are scared and that is why they are posting on his site. I promise that he knows the B.S behind their propaganda otherwise he wouldn't have co-signed that Bill!

[New Politics]

http://barackobama.wetpaint.com/thread/720684/macedonia?t=anon

Can some ppl from this forum respond to that board with something constructive to say.... looks like fyromian slugs are penetrating the ignorant american public with nonsense once again.

Have fun!!

I would not get involved. From what I see it is a bad strategy. Invading other blogs only diminishes those that invade.

Let them hang themselves.

[New Politics]

I definitely support Obama and have pointed out his stance on FYROM in here and in the Illyria forums. He is one of the biggest hopes for a change of U.S policy on FYROM for the Greeks and the FYROM's know it! They are scared and that is why they are posting on his site. I promise that he knows the B.S behind their propaganda otherwise he wouldn't have co-signed that Bill!


Politics is a blood sport. What does it mean to Obama to give support to a larger of the two communities? Do you think he has an actual sympathy for our cause? He goes to a church that is lead by the type of black leaders that support Black Athena, Call Romans (Italians) garlic lovers or such stupid insults.

That he has chosen to support Greece in the topic is one thing, but giving him more credit is the same foolishness as the Skopje give to support from China.

[mike00]

Nice tactic ...

But you can erase Macedonian, even Vlachs ethnic group exist, without country and no one can remove them.

I'm Macedonian from Republic of Macedonia, the wife of my brother is girl from Slavic villages in Greek Macedonia, and we are here unfortantly :(

Keep your tactic, hope you will see each other as good neighbor tomorrow.

Best washes,
Mike

PS. I agree instead Macedonia to replace with name Greek, and today Greek county to take and keep Macedonia name, are you ... :)

[Slayer]

Nice tactic ...

But you can erase Macedonian, even Vlachs ethnic group exist, without country and no one can remove them.

I'm Macedonian from Republic of Macedonia, the wife of my brother is girl from Slavic villages in Greek Macedonia, and we are here unfortantly :(

Keep your tactic, hope you will see each other as good neighbor tomorrow.

Best washes,
Mike

PS. I agree instead Macedonia to replace with name Greek, and today Greek county to take and keep Macedonia name, are you ... :)

I read this three times and I still have no idea what you are trying to say

[mike00]

Correction for the first part:My apologies:

"No one can erase nations, and can't erase Macedonians. Even Vlachs ethnic group exist, without country and no one can remove them."
Vlachs exist in R. Macedonia, Greek but most of them in Serbia (see Wikipedia)

And there is no anti-greek propaganda in Macedonia, Greek by themself provocate thear real neighbors; there is anti-macedonian's nation propaganda from Greek country, and what is make me very disappointed, from most of Greek people. Instead to find a way for the better future together with other nation in and around (like USA), they are still trying to be "favor", "perfect" nation. I was, and still hope to be, as one of many intelligent people in Macedonia, which will like to say "Greek are our good and best neighbors, friends, ...".

For the history you have rights to understand on your way, but just one fact Ciril and Methody (of course not Greek names) was born in Solun or Thessaloníki. Let say there are not Slavic Macedonian, they are Bulgarian, does it say something ...?

Aleksandar the Great, his not Slavic Macedonian and he is not Greek (his peoples speak language understandable for Greeks. Why by the way speaking for Aleksandar there is no prefix Greek for anything related with him and his epare, only that he fight with Greek separate town-countries and he know Greek which was at that time kind of international language (but speak Macedonian). Of coure later Macedonian mix with Greeks and Slavic Macedonian later, and to me both nations have right on Macedonian history.
Read other not Greek information, as I'm doing when I'm reding informatin from my country and you will see ...

Thank you

[kzk842]

Correction for the first part:My apologies:
And there is no anti-greek propaganda in Macedonia, Greek by themself provocate thear real neighbors; there is anti-macedonian's nation propaganda from Greek country, and what is make me very disappointed, from most of Greek people. Instead to find a way for the better future together with other nation in and around (like USA), they are still trying to be "favor", "perfect" nation. I was, and still hope to be, as one of many intelligent people in Macedonia, which will like to say "Greek are our good and best neighbors, friends, ...".

There is not a "anti-macedonian" propaganda from Greek country,Macedonia is a piece of Greece.
Find a better future with other?
http://www.imageshack.gr/files/rxwdpsmu6gkskb5y6to0.jpg

With that kind of photos with your prime minister?
Dont tell me the bullshit that the Greek media did it bigger than it is,we know that the same map is in you school books.
Better stop looking to our history and our land then we can start talking as friend.

For the history you have rights to understand on your way, but just one fact Ciril and Methody (of course not Greek names) was born in Solun or Thessaloníki. Let say there are not Slavic Macedonian, they are Bulgarian, does it say something ...?

For the names just: There were 7 patriarchs of Konstantinopolis with the name Kyrillos,all of them Greek origin.
3 patriarchs of Alexandreia of Egypt (all Greek origin)
2 patriarchs of Antioxia (both of Greek origin)
2 patriarchs of Ierousalim and 3 patriarchs of Cyprus(i guess nobody told you that).
Methodios: have you ever heard the word method? Just look on every serious dictionary from where it comes from..


Aleksandar the Great, his not Slavic Macedonian and he is not Greek (his peoples speak language understandable for Greeks. Why by the way speaking for Aleksandar there is no prefix Greek for anything related with him and his epare, only that he fight with Greek separate town-countries and he know Greek which was at that time kind of international language (but speak Macedonian). Of coure later Macedonian mix with Greeks and Slavic Macedonian later, and to me both nations have right on Macedonian history.
Read other not Greek information, as I'm doing when I'm reding informatin from my country and you will see ...


"Men of Athens, that which I am about to say I trust to your honour; and I charge you to keep it secret from all excepting Pausanias, if you would not bring me to destruction. Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Greece, I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself a Greek by descent, and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery."

Alexander I the Makedon
The History of Herodotus,Book IX
By Herodotus

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.9.ix.html

Now you are the one that talk for someone is free to call his ethnicity,right?
Why dont you respect this mans ethnicity?

[Foti66]

Correction for the first part:My apologies:

"No one can erase nations, and can't erase Macedonians. Even Vlachs ethnic group exist, without country and no one can remove them."
Vlachs exist in R. Macedonia, Greek but most of them in Serbia (see Wikipedia)

And there is no anti-greek propaganda in Macedonia, Greek by themself provocate thear real neighbors; there is anti-macedonian's nation propaganda from Greek country, and what is make me very disappointed, from most of Greek people. Instead to find a way for the better future together with other nation in and around (like USA), they are still trying to be "favor", "perfect" nation. I was, and still hope to be, as one of many intelligent people in Macedonia, which will like to say "Greek are our good and best neighbors, friends, ...".

For the history you have rights to understand on your way, but just one fact Ciril and Methody (of course not Greek names) was born in Solun or Thessaloníki. Let say there are not Slavic Macedonian, they are Bulgarian, does it say something ...?

Aleksandar the Great, his not Slavic Macedonian and he is not Greek (his peoples speak language understandable for Greeks. Why by the way speaking for Aleksandar there is no prefix Greek for anything related with him and his epare, only that he fight with Greek separate town-countries and he know Greek which was at that time kind of international language (but speak Macedonian). Of coure later Macedonian mix with Greeks and Slavic Macedonian later, and to me both nations have right on Macedonian history.
Read other not Greek information, as I'm doing when I'm reding informatin from my country and you will see ...

Thank you


Hi Mike,

I am sorry to say this but the only information that comes out of your country is distorted. You live in a country that is trying to shake the communist mentality but is failing miserably. Continue to educate yourself through outside sources. You will eventually find clarity.

[mike00]

1. On June 21, 22, and 23, 1913, the Greek army completely burned to the ground the city of Kukush (today Kilkis), known for its resistance against Hellenism in the XIX century.
2. Between June 29 and 25, 39 villages in the Kukush area were also burned down.
3. On June 23 and 24, the city of Serres (today Serrai) was set on fire where 4000 houses perished. In the Serres gymnasium the Greeks murdered about 200 people.
4. During these days the larger portion of Strumica was also destroyed by the Greek army.
5. Between June 23 and 30, many villages in the Drama and Serres districts were burned down.
6. From June 27 to July 6, all Macedonian quarts in Salonika were set on fire.

This is the real history, we have to respect murdered, but try to forget it for the future together. I dislike Greek politic at that time (and now), but not hate Greek people, culture and civilizations. Do you know how many Greek company work in Macedonia without any problem, just make reasrch for yourself. This is the future, money, business, projects, goods, living together on Balcan in peace; monuments and respect to dead people are for history ...

-------------------
Kyrillos<>Kyril (Ciril)

--------------------
Method is Latin word
Do not mix Latin language and Greek which contend Latin original worlds
<link>openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/resource/view.php?id=210273</link>
I do not have time for research, but I guess we have even in our jargon some original Greek worlds. It is normally, you are our neighborhoods for the years

------------------
Herodotus is Greek

I can show a lot of stupid links where Macedonian, like your links show "facts" for Macedonian nationalism, but this is not my way to see the world or my way to discus, I do not trust to politic my or any country, even your government just care for their money and election, not for people goods and future.

That is why I'm trying to say to Macedonian or Greek that they have to find the way for understanding, critic themself, compromise and friends. Governments will find anyway in the future solution, maybe real maybe not, but future will correct mistakes. Now is important people to start thinking together, and use their life for goods ..

[mike00]

____________________________
I am sorry to say this but the only information that comes out of your country is distorted. You live in a country that is trying to shake the communist mentality but is failing miserably. Continue to educate yourself through outside sources. You will eventually find clarity.
_________________

Wrong, I'm born outside of R.Macedonia and now living in USA :)
I do not trust any media which I guess have any interest to publish something, even my country, R. Macedonia, but I trust to independed, not sponsored study; I trust to my grand and pra-grands. I have here a lot of Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian friends, Most of them agree in discussions how our people are stupid, fighting between, and USA and EU just use our conflict to reach their targets ...

Anyway just do not think that communism is something artificial, it is very close to the today system in most European countries and based on real economy and politic ... :). Can you show me some different artificion county from communism, maybe Cypar :)

Good lack :)

[mike00]

Just one more thing for the true.

In mixed environments here in USA people understand stupidest of our conflict (all in Balkan, all are based on nationalistic ideas) but Greeks in small villages ("Greek parts") in non mixed environments think as people in Greek, unfortantly :(

[Foti66]

My brain hurts. How am I going to decipher what you are saying Mike? I think at some point you were trying to say that you trust your grandparents views over all other media (whether it is biased, meaning coming from Greece or Fyrom, or an unbiased source such as the western media.) You know, you are not the first Fyromian who has expressed themselves in this fashion. Unless you open yourself to serious study and research you will continue to be in the dark. Sorry.

[edessa]

____________________________
I am sorry to say this but the only information that comes out of your country is distorted. You live in a country that is trying to shake the communist mentality but is failing miserably. Continue to educate yourself through outside sources. You will eventually find clarity.
_________________

Wrong, I'm born outside of R.Macedonia and now living in USA :)
I do not trust any media which I guess have any interest to publish something, even my country, R. Macedonia, but I trust to independed, not sponsored study; I trust to my grand and pra-grands. I have here a lot of Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian friends, Most of them agree in discussions how our people are stupid, fighting between, and USA and EU just use our conflict to reach their targets ...
Anyway just do not think that communism is something artificial, it is very close to the today system in most European countries and based on real economy and politic ... :). Can you show me some different artificion county from communism, maybe Cypar :)

Good lack :)

I totally agree your people are stupid :)

[Victor]

1. On June 21, 22, and 23, 1913, the Greek army completely burned to the ground the city of Kukush (today Kilkis), known for its resistance against Hellenism in the XIX century.
2. Between June 29 and 25, 39 villages in the Kukush area were also burned down.
3. On June 23 and 24, the city of Serres (today Serrai) was set on fire where 4000 houses perished. In the Serres gymnasium the Greeks murdered about 200 people.
4. During these days the larger portion of Strumica was also destroyed by the Greek army.
5. Between June 23 and 30, many villages in the Drama and Serres districts were burned down.
6. From June 27 to July 6, all Macedonian quarts in Salonika were set on fire.
WHy do you care?You have none of your people from Serres,DRama or Salonika,and almost nobody from KUkush.
And the Greek army was fighting the BUlgarian army in those battles,where the hell was your "MAcedonian" army?
Also,there was no fire in SAlonika in 1913.:rolleyes:

[kzk842]

Cause stupidness has its own limits...

Middle English, prescribed treatment, from Latin methodus, from Greek methodos, from meta- + hodos way

openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/resource/view.php?id=210273

Middle English, medical procedure, from Latin methodus, method, from Greek methodos, pursuit, method : meta-, beyond, after; see meta- + hodos, way, journey.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/method

15th century. Via Latin< Greek methodos "pursuit, way" < meta- "after" + hodos "journey

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/method.html

— ORIGIN Greek methodos ‘pursuit of knowledge

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/method?view=uk

Etymology:Middle English, prescribed treatment, from Latin methodus, from Greek methodos, from meta- + hodos way

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=method

From Ancient Greek μέθοδος (methodos) "pursuit of knowledge, investigation, mode of prosecuting such inquiry, system", from μετά, μέθ- (metα, meth-) "in the midst of, among, between, in common, along with, by aid of" + οδός (odos) "way, motion, journey".

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Method

Middle English, medical procedure, from Latin methodus, method, from Greek methodos, pursuit, method : meta-, beyond, after; see meta– + hodos, way, journey.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/40/M0254000.html

There are more if you want i can give you...
Is there any doubt for the Greek origin of the word method and the name Methodios.

Please if you are going to write down something for history or something like that give us your sources.

[kzk842]

"Herodotus is Greek" is total rediculious as a reason for not accepting what i wrote to you.The only sources for ancient Macedonians are from ancient Greeks and Romans.

By the way take a look what a Roman say.

"But Caranus, accompanied by a great multitude of Greeks, having been directed by an oracle to seek a settlement in Macedonia, and having come into Emathia, and followed a flock of goats that were fleeing from a tempest, possessed himself of the city of Edessa, before the inhabitants, on account of the thickness of the rain and mist, were aware of his approach; and being reminded of the oracle, by which he had been ordered to seek a kingdom with goats for his guides"

Marcus Junianus Justinus,Epitome of the Philippic History of Pompeius Trogus.
Book VII

http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/justin/english/trans7.html

I guess you know that Caranus was the progenitor of the royal house of Macedonians and someone Latin say that he came to Macedonia with a great multitude of Greeks...can you see it?

[kostas68]

3. On June 23 and 24, the city of Serres (today Serrai) was set on fire where 4000 houses perished. In the Serres gymnasium the Greeks murdered about 200 people.
5. Between June 23 and 30, many villages in the Drama and Serres districts were burned down.

As a native Greek of Serres,i have the right to call you either a shameless liar who falsificates well known history facts or just a brainwashed ignorant who parrots whatever crap is served to him,and because i believe that you are a descent man,you can choose what you prefer.Serres was the bastion of Hellenism in Eastern Macedonia there weren't any <ethnic Macedonians> living and it was burnt by the retreating Bulgarian army (who occupied the whole of the territory between the rivers Strymonas and Nestos from October 1912) in 28 June 1913(the next day the city was liberated by the Greek army) .These <villages in the Drama and Serres districts that were burned down> were inahbited by Greeks and burnt by the Bulgarians,as you will ascertain reading the below quotes,because the Greek army reached in these regions after 29th June.There were some villages northern of Serres where the inhabitants spoke Bulgarian,but either they considered themselves Greeks and fought for Greece and for their annexation to Greece,or they were Bulgarians,fought for Bulgaria and a few years later they fled to Bulgaria.Nothing like <Makedontsi>.And because i speak with facts and i can prove what i say:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/makedgerm1927.gif
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/mak1927180.gif
It writes: <In interior,Serres is the bastion of Hellenism,with churches and gymnasium as corner stones.But even if they weren't visible,the destiny of the city under the occupation by the Bulgarians would be a testimony about its national belonging.From northern of the compact hinterland reach in the Strymonic field masses of ethnic Bulgarians.A part of them is Hellenized>.
Look also these articles of N.Y. Times. Can you understand now who burnt whose cities and villages?Next time it's better to check the reliability of your claims before you post something.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D04E7D9153FE633A2575BC1A9619C946296D6CF
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9F0CE1D61730E733A2575BC0A9609C946596D6CF&oref=slogin
Read also this,in the chapters < THE MASSACRE AT DOXATO> (Doxato is a large Greek village in Drama) and <THE MASSACRE AND CONFLAGRATION OF SERRES>.Even the Bulgarians themselves admitt it!
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/carnegie/chapter2_2.html
As for Cyrillos and Methodios,i tell you this:it's bad to be ignorant,but worse is to believe that your ignorance is the true knowledge.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Cyrillus&searchmode=none
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=method&searchmode=none

[mike00]

one by one :)
first Foti66
Dark; who is living in Dark ?
I'm trusted what my grands says. And reading "western" media and my country "media", I'm just clearing little some part from history. Believe me many was not contradictory, but with too much pomp to our fight for freedom or value of how we was successful. By the way my grandpa was witness and involved in Krusevo Republic 1903 (Slavic Macedonian fight with Turkey; see <link>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo</link>) , leaded by Goce Delcev, of course Greek man :), with greek name :), born in Kukush (today Kilkis) (<link>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotse_Delchev</link>). I'm gona not write more, just read it for yourself, and compere what your Government try to say that Macedonians are artificial nation. And by the way have you ever, ever hear for other artificial nation, or R. Macedonia is unique case in the World.

So not like lot of those people on this forum, believe and being prude of his own country history. Ok, be prude that one moment your nation was leader of EU culture, but right now...
And do not forget that at that time Grace was leader in democracy

PS. Do not forget that history write people and usually, it is a slave to country politic. Many facts can be destroyed, many people can be killed but it will not change real history. It will work only to put the country back in the history, until they learn the lesson. We learn the lesson and we accept everyone to fill in our country as he like. Now you can see, like in this repeat election, even Albanians care for what people say for R. Macedonia :). Fanny

[mike00]

My brain hurts. How am I going to decipher what you are saying Mike? I think at some point you were trying to say that you trust your grandparents views over all other media (whether it is biased, meaning coming from Greece or Fyrom, or an unbiased source such as the western media.) You know, you are not the first Fyromian who has expressed themselves in this fashion. Unless you open yourself to serious study and research you will continue to be in the dark. Sorry.

Dark ??? Who is living in dark ? Someone who read and following the media build, sponsored or with influence from the Greek Nationalism; or someone who read independed media to clear stories from real witnesses.

My Grandpa was involved in Ilinden, first serious try Slavic Macedonian for freedom in Krusevo <link>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo</link>. Also Albanian and Vlachs was involved in this kind of mini revolution, leaded by Goce Delcav, born in Kukush (Kilkis); can we say he is Greek, or maybe kind of Bulgarian how our east neighbors are trying to show the history :). But what ever our neighborers are trying to say, the grands in my country are says or used to say that we are Macedonian (Slavic), not Serbian not Bulgarian.

[mike00]

My brain hurts. How am I going to decipher what you ...

Unless you open yourself to serious study and research you will continue to be in the dark. Sorry.

Dark ??? Who is living in dark ? Someone who read and following the media build, sponsored or with influence from the Greek Nationalism; or someone who read independed media to clear stories from real witnesses.

My Grandpa was involved in Ilinden, first serious try Slavic Macedonian for freedom in Krusevo <link>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo</link>. Also Albanian and Vlachs was involved in this kind of mini revolution, leaded by Goce Delcav, born in Kukush (Kilkis); can we say he is Greek, or maybe kind of Bulgarian how our east neighbors are trying to show the history :). But what ever our neighborers are trying to say, the grands in my country are says or used to say that we are Macedonian (Slavic), not Serbian not Bulgarian.

[mike00]

Foti66;81708

My brain hurts. How am I going to decipher what you ...

Unless you open yourself to serious study and research you will continue to be in the dark. Sorry.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Dark ??? Who is living in dark ? Someone who read and following the media build, sponsored or with influence from the Greek Nationalism; or someone who read independed media to clear stories from real witnesses.

My Grandpa was involved in Ilinden, first serious try Slavic Macedonian for freedom in Krusevo <link>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo</link>. Also Albanian and Vlachs was involved in this kind of mini revolution, leaded by Goce Delcav, born in Kukush (Kilkis); can we say he is Greek, or maybe kind of Bulgarian how our east neighbors are trying to show the history :). But what ever our neighborers are trying to say, the grands in my country are says or used to say that we are Macedonian (Slavic), not Serbian not Bulgarian.

[mike00]

My brain hurts. How am I going to decipher what you are saying Mike? I think at some point you were trying to say that you trust your grandparents views over all other media (whether it is biased, meaning coming from Greece or Fyrom, or an unbiased source such as the western media.) You know, you are not the first Fyromian who has expressed themselves in this fashion. Unless you open yourself to serious study and research you will continue to be in the dark. Sorry.

Dark ??? Who is living in dark ? Someone who read and following the media build, sponsored or with influence from the Greek Nationalism; or someone who read independed media to clear stories from real witnesses.

My Grandpa was involved in Ilinden, first serious try Slavic Macedonian for freedom in Krusevo <link>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo</link>. Also Albanian and Vlachs was involved in this kind of mini revolution, leaded by Goce Delcav, born in Kukush (Kilkis); can we say he is Greek, or maybe kind of Bulgarian how our east neighbors are trying to show the history :). But what ever our neighborers are trying to say, the grands in my country are says or used to say that we are Macedonian (Slavic), not Serbian not Bulgarian.

[mike00]

Agree with you kzk842, method is your word, Greek, but you see how is easy to play with the fact to show something different. That was the point with this provocation to show the way how our neighbors (read goverment of those countries) are trying to show something unknown in the world like artificial nation, have you ever her for something similar in the world ... ?

[mike00]

To Victor:

WHy do you care?You have none of your people from Serres,DRama or Salonika,and almost nobody from KUkush.
And the Greek army was fighting the BUlgarian army in those battles,where the hell was your "MAcedonian" army?
Also,there was no fire in SAlonika in 1913.

_____________

A lot of Slavic Macedonian was running to save their live, and migrated to other countries. One big number are here in R. Macedonia, (example the wife of my brother and her parents, and to me there are on site witnesses what happened at that time, genocide to those people). And many of those will never go back, some are involved in our goverment, but they are respect the dead from their families, born places, ...

For me it is similar filling as you have to Cyprus Greeks or those Greeks in Albania ... You will probably do not care they safer, correct ...

And Bulgaria used to taking solders from Macedonians, saying that we are brothers, we will help to reach your freedom etc. Read for details in next post ...

[kostas68]

A lot of Slavic Macedonian was running to save their live, and migrated to other countries. One big number are here in R. Macedonia, (example the wife of my brother and her parents, and to me there are on site witnesses what happened at that time, genocide to those people). And many of those will never go back, some are involved in our goverment, but they are respect the dead from their families, born places, ...
And Bulgaria used to taking solders from Macedonians, saying that we are brothers, we will help to reach your freedom etc. Read for details in next post ...
You're confusing the dates,you're confusing the Balkan wars in 1912-13 with the Greek civil war in 1946-49.Those <Slavic Macedonian who were running to save their lives> in 1913,were actually pure Bulgarians who participated in the Bulgarian comitadji bands during the Macedonian struggle(1904-08) and later,during the Bulgarian occupation of Eastern Macedonia (1912-13) were involved in persecutions and murders against Greeks.When the Greek army came,they hadn't any other choice,they fled to mother Bulgaria in order to avoid the revenge.

[Victor]

To Victor:

WHy do you care?You have none of your people from Serres,DRama or Salonika,and almost nobody from KUkush.
And the Greek army was fighting the BUlgarian army in those battles,where the hell was your "MAcedonian" army?
Also,there was no fire in SAlonika in 1913.

_____________

A lot of Slavic Macedonian was running to save their live, and migrated to other countries. One big number are here in R. Macedonia, (example the wife of my brother and her parents, and to me there are on site witnesses what happened at that time, genocide to those people). And many of those will never go back, some are involved in our goverment, but they are respect the dead from their families, born places, ...

For me it is similar filling as you have to Cyprus Greeks or those Greeks in Albania ... You will probably do not care they safer, correct ...

And Bulgaria used to taking solders from Macedonians, saying that we are brothers, we will help to reach your freedom etc. Read for details in next post ...No offense brachko but your English is difficult to understand.

MY point was that your people from GReece are almost all from the
FLorina,Kastoria and Edessa areas.Serres,Drama and SAlonika are foreign lands to ALL fyromanians.

My family is from a FLorina village,and there was NO genocide on the basis of race or language.You can say there was a genocide on the basis of politics(supporting communism) but thats not the fault of GReece.THose people wanted to bring violent revolution to Greece.THey lost and ran away to YUgoslavia to avoid treason charges,so they deserve nothing from Greece and will never get anything.

IN the Balkan wars(1912-13) there was NO "Macedonian" army,but tens of thousands of MAcedonian Slavs VOLUNTEERED for the Bulgarian army.WE know who you were back then.

[mike00]

Victor.

So there was and there is Slavic Macedonian, ok let say in "FLorina,Kastoria and Edessa areas.Serres,Drama and SAlonika". So we agree to this point.

Next, agree with you that there was a "genocide on the basis of politics". Winner take it's all. But why today when everything is over, still those Macedonian (and their children) can not go in Greece, and visit families, place where is born. If police haw indication that someone of them was responsible for killing civilian in the civil war, arrest him/her. Bring to the curt and everything is legal. The same happened in war in Yugoslavia after the Tito. Only those responsible for killing civilian and public harming remain to stay in prison.

For the Balkan's Wars, you never heard for propaganda that "Bulgaria will help and bring freedom to Slavic Macedonian" A little number yes, VOLUNTEERED for the Bulgarian, agree. But majority was taken from home, scaring that will be murdered or Bulgarian army will kill some of close family. The some thing happened in any war, and if you are from Florina and know Slavic Macedonian from that part of Greece, you probably know how "big fighters" are :).
We know in R.Macedonia, Slavic Macedonians from "Egej" was not heroes, unofficially, this is my opinion and to most of other :)

But this not remove the fact that a lot of them was killed or have to immigrate, treated as Bulgarian solders, sadly. That was my point, but we have to forgot all those bloody things in history, and start over with new future, not with ignoring nations. This is not solutions ...

What R. Macedonia did to try to resolve this conflict:
1. Change constitution. No declaration for taking care Slavic Macedonia around neighbor's countries. Greece's constitution have part with this declaration and noone see promlem with.

2. Change the flag, agree it is Aleksandr the Great symbol. But let say you are right, we do not mixed with them, and they was Greeks (this is not my view, read my other comments, a thing all nations which have a chance to mix with hem have right on Aleksander history). A lot of country keep symbols on their flags related with some sybol well known in some different country.

3. Almost was accepted name-change, trying to resolve Greece's name conflict, with including in name some graphic attribute.
Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)

What Greek did, nothing (try to find any official change, not what they are just saying), just keep old fashion strong view trying to remove Macedonia and Macedonians, eve n in our fillings (can someone remove your filling tha you are Greeks), witout any try for compromise.

Hve a good day Vicor, I have to sleep ..

[mike00]

Victor.

So there was and there is Slavic Macedonian, ok let say in "FLorina,Kastoria and Edessa areas.Serres,Drama and SAlonika". So we agree to this point.

Next, agree with you that there was a "genocide on the basis of politics". Winner take it's all. But why today when everything is over, still those Macedonian (and their children) can not go in Greece, and visit families, place where is born. If police haw indication that someone of them was responsible for killing civilian in the civil war, arrest him/her. Bring to the curt and everything is legal. The same happened in war in Yugoslavia after the Tito. Only those responsible for killing civilian and public harming remain to stay in prison.

For the Balkan's Wars, you never heard for propaganda that "Bulgaria will help and bring freedom to Slavic Macedonian" A little number yes, VOLUNTEERED for the Bulgarian, agree. But majority was taken from home, scaring that will be murdered or Bulgarian army will kill some of close family. The some thing happened in any war, and if you are from Florina and know Slavic Macedonian from that part of Greece, you probably know how "big fighters" are :).
We know in R.Macedonia, Slavic Macedonians from "Egej" was not heroes, unofficially, this is my opinion and to most of other :)

But this not remove the fact that a lot of them was killed or have to immigrate, treated as Bulgarian solders, sadly. That was my point, but we have to forgot all those bloody things in history, and start over with new future, not with ignoring nations. This is not solutions ...

What R. Macedonia did to try to resolve this conflict:
1. Change constitution. No declaration for taking care Slavic Macedonia around neighbor's countries. Greece's constitution have part with this declaration and noone see promlem with.

2. Change the flag, agree it is Aleksandr the Great symbol. But let say you are right, we do not mixed with them, and they was Greeks (this is not my view, read my other comments, a thing all nations which have a chance to mix with hem have right on Aleksander history). A lot of country keep symbols on their flags related with some sybol well known in some different country.

3. Almost was accepted name-change, trying to resolve Greece's name conflict, with including in name some graphic attribute.
Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)

What Greek did, nothing (try to find any official change, not what they are just saying), just keep old fashion strong view trying to remove Macedonia and Macedonians, eve n in our fillings (can someone remove your filling tha you are Greeks), witout any try for compromise.

Hve a good day Vicor, I have to sleep ..

[kostas68]

Victor.

So there was and there is Slavic Macedonian, ok let say in "FLorina,Kastoria and Edessa areas.Serres,Drama and SAlonika". So we agree to this point.

Next, agree with you that there was a "genocide on the basis of politics". Winner take it's all. But why today when everything is over, still those Macedonian (and their children) can not go in Greece, and visit families, place where is born. If police haw indication that someone of them was responsible for killing civilian in the civil war, arrest him/her. Bring to the curt and everything is legal. The same happened in war in Yugoslavia after the Tito. Only those responsible for killing civilian and public harming remain to stay in prison.

For the Balkan's Wars, you never heard for propaganda that "Bulgaria will help and bring freedom to Slavic Macedonian" A little number yes, VOLUNTEERED for the Bulgarian, agree. But majority was taken from home, scaring that will be murdered or Bulgarian army will kill some of close family. The some thing happened in any war, and if you are from Florina and know Slavic Macedonian from that part of Greece, you probably know how "big fighters" are :).
We know in R.Macedonia, Slavic Macedonians from "Egej" was not heroes, unofficially, this is my opinion and to most of other :)

But this not remove the fact that a lot of them was killed or have to immigrate, treated as Bulgarian solders, sadly. That was my point, but we have to forgot all those bloody things in history, and start over with new future, not with ignoring nations. This is not solutions ...

What R. Macedonia did to try to resolve this conflict:
1. Change constitution. No declaration for taking care Slavic Macedonia around neighbor's countries. Greece's constitution have part with this declaration and noone see promlem with.

2. Change the flag, agree it is Aleksandr the Great symbol. But let say you are right, we do not mixed with them, and they was Greeks (this is not my view, read my other comments, a thing all nations which have a chance to mix with hem have right on Aleksander history). A lot of country keep symbols on their flags related with some sybol well known in some different country.

3. Almost was accepted name-change, trying to resolve Greece's name conflict, with including in name some graphic attribute.
Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)

What Greek did, nothing (try to find any official change, not what they are just saying), just keep old fashion strong view trying to remove Macedonia and Macedonians, eve n in our fillings (can someone remove your filling tha you are Greeks), witout any try for compromise.

Hve a good day Vicor, I have to sleep ..
You didn't notice what i wrote about those Slavs of Macedonia who fought on the Bulgarians side.I didn't say only about the period of Bulgarian occupation(Balkan wars 1912-13 and WW1 1915-17).I wrote about the pre-balkan wars period,the <Macedonian struggle> between the Greeks and the Bulgarians during Ottoman time,1904-08.At that time wasn't the Bulgarian army here,those of the Slavs of Macedonia who helped the Bulgarians did it by their own free will.Near to my village(8 km away,in a mountainous area) was a Slavic village.The inhabitants were known as Bulgarians,my grandparents and all the people called them by this name,nothing about <Macedonians>.They helped the Bulgarian comitadji bands against the Greek counterparts and in a battle where Turkish policemen and civilians from a neighboring Turkish village had surrounded a Greek band where 5-6 fellow villagers of mine were participating,they helped the Turks to exterminate the Greek band.There happened also some other such incidents and when the Greek army came in 1913 all of them abandoned their village and fled to Bulgaria.Probably they were afraid of the Greek retaliation.I don't say that we were the good guys and the other the bad ones,i'm just trying to explain you how was the situation back then,there was war and in the wars always happen sadly things,murders of innocent civilians and other attrocities,but 2 things are clear:1)At the time of the Balkan wars those Slavic-speaking inhabitants of Macedonia who didn't consider themselves Greek(because many of them had Greek consciousness and i'll write about them below),called themselves Bulgarians,supported the Bulgarians during the Macedonian strugle and the Balkan wars by their free will because their dream was to join with Bulgaria,not the establishment of a sovvereign <Macedonian> state.
2)After the Balkan wars and the Bulgarian defeat,the Slavic-speaking inhabitants of Macedonia who left Greece settled in Bulgaria,not in the soil of today's FYROM and they who fled were the ones who were involved in several hostile activities against Greeks.Nobody forced them to leave but they had serious reasons to do it,the avoiding of the Greek revenge.Many of them who remained in their homes,left some years later,after the Neilly treaty and the mutual voluntary population exchange between Greece and Bulgaria.
As for the Slavic-speaking(Slavophones) inhabitants of Macedonia,many of them considered themselves Greeks,fought and died for Greece and never denied their Greekness,even under the threat of the knife on their throat.

[mike00]

We are very close, with little difference, from of point of view to history.

First there is two different forces in any nation. One to join with other close nations, and one nationalism, to dominate over others. All formal Yugoslavia nations are close in their language. That how WW1 start (of course it is not reason for WW!) Gavrilo Princip was member of "Young Bosnia" and kill Austro-Hungarian prince in Sarajevo, in the name of future Yugoslavia. It's happened, just after WW1 for economic reasons, but real join was actual after WW2. But the idea from "Young Bosnia" was used from Serbia and it's tend to grow in territory. There are a lot of Serbian agents in "Yang Bosnia", hiding between other members and working not for Yugoslavia, just for Serbia only. Even in time of Georgi Dimitrov president, Bulgaria wants to join to YU, but Russia do not allow it and he was killed. I fill sad when I'm seeing right now how much nationalism and hate developed in history exist between EU nations and they are still far from EU Union, on same basis as USA :(

Now back to Macedonians. Greek, Bulgaria and Serbia, was independent and with young but strong army, with university, goverment etc. Sadly but Slavic Macedonian was still under Turkey Maybe you never heard, or was by impression what Bulgarian say for Slavic Macedonian history, and they always want to assimilate them, but there was several tries to make Slavic Macedonian free country:

NY Times Captures Macedonian Struggle for Freedom in 1900s
<link>http://umdiaspora.org/images/NYT/nyt.jpg</link>

On the beginning even Greeks was cooperating with Slavic Macedonian in fight with Turkey see <link>http://umdiaspora.org/images/NYT/108245140.pdf</link>

There are several tries for freedom, but only one was well organized, Ilinden in Krusevo, leaded by Goce Delcev born in Kukush

Macedonian Republic in Krusevo:
<link>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo</link>
<link>http://flagspot.net/flags/mk_1903.html</link>

Goce Delcev
<link>http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/goce-delchev/biography.html</link>

Can you imagine, Bulgarian even today celebrate Ilinden, but it is not try for "Macedonian's Bulgarians" freedom. It was Slavic Macedonian, not Bulgarian, not Serbian. See what Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek propaganda was doing at that time:
<link>http://umdiaspora.org/images/NYT/101944495.pdf</link>
<link>http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lect11.htm</link>
read bellow after "Who are the Macedonians?"

Thats why you say:
----------------------------
hose of the Slavs of Macedonia who helped the Bulgarians did it by their own free will.Near to my village(8 km away,in a mountainous area) was a Slavic village.The inhabitants were known as Bulgarians,my grandparents and all the people called them by this name,nothing about <Macedonians>.They helped the Bulgarian comitadji bands against the Greek counterparts
------------------------------

So they are tries to make own country, but unsuccessfully :(. And it was not "Bulgarian comitadji bands", it was trained and well organized group from Bulgaria which agitate between Slavic Macedonians, "brothers we are here to help you". Especially Bulgarian and Serbian propaganda was successfully in schools. They pay to corrupted Turkey goverment to hire hire teachers in Slavic Macedonian villages. So when Serbian teacher cam he say "you are Serbian" or Bulgarian says "You are Bulgarian". Sometimes they change in few years on same place, depended on role "who pay more". This propaganda exist even today, try to search and you will see.

Next point of disagree with you, is about "Greek revenge". It exist if goverment somehow force it in the country ... And mostly in small villages, the same happend in Yu, so today do not be supprise if you see pople from Sarajevo, Lubljana, Zagreb, Belgrad fill like best frends if thay meet ouside elswhere in World, knowing that someone else was reason for YU dividing, not normal Yu citizens, but pepole from small vilages hate between on national basis.

I have reason to hate Albanian, they almost killed my uncle (he was child at that time, and sill all our family money, living as poor and without home (burn). But without bad influence from propaganda, today I know that not all Albanian are bad, and I do not hate them. So my try is to show Greek people to try better understood history, be more critic and stop fighting between each other and star live together, critic our governments.

People with Aleksandr the great was disappear, mixed with others. A agree in Macedonia (territory), parts close to R.Macedonia was (understand it is history, not current situation after all) with most of Slavic Macedonia, close to Bulgaria (Tracia) it was with most of Bulgarian and close to Greece with most of Greeks. So two Balkan wars was only for territory, because all they was independent and fully developed countries. And main losers was Slavic Macedonian, only luck of history today made finally our independence via R. Macedonia.

With Treaty of Bucharest this Macedonian territory, was divided. And with civil war in Greece, cleared from most of Slavic Macedonian. And I do not agree that all involved in war have to be hunted and killed, it is fascistic politic. Does any other country kill and hunt all enemy solder, just leaders and creators, ask yourself ...

And finally my point is to stop with this, no Anti-Greek propaganda exit in R. Macedonia, just people are fill hurt with Greece goverment politic. And forgot all bloody thing from history on each side and thing for future. Only Macedonian and Greeks are those which have power to resolve this conflict. Greece politic based on force with veto in EU, NATO etc, just make to grow Slavic Macedonian Nationalism, which I do not approve for myself.

[mike00]

Another Veto, now in EU :clap2:
Look like Greece goverment do not know any other way to lead in their politic ... Buy the way, with this they show clearly to other their real face and "democracy". No more comments ... ;)

Congratulating Greece your very "powerful"! :clapping:

PS It not means that I'm not respecting you, my friends, greetings was for those who did it ..., and approve it ...

[Amarantos]

Another Veto, now in EU :clap2:
Look like Greece goverment do not know any other way to lead in their politic ... Buy the way, with this they show clearly to other their real face and "democracy". No more comments ... ;)

Congratulating Greece your very "powerful"! :clapping:


1. Stop blaming others for the state your country is in. The lack of democracy is a fact in Skopje and this is one of the reasons you are not getting any invitation for NATO and EU. You are not inspiring any confidence as a democratic country. See the 1 june elections for istance.

2. Your counrty and its people should learn a basic rule. When one wants to enter a club, those who make already part of that particular club have by definition the right to judge if the candidate worths it to became an equal. In this process there are those who agree and those who oppose. Simple.

3. Greece is only practising a right. When fyrom (and if fyrom) becomes a member in these organizations ,it will enjoy the same right. When it will exercise it towards a third part,i guess you won't be talking about "real face and "democracy" etc" stories.

4. The EU just said to Skopje that it should stop acting like a spoiled child and behave itself ,since it's not the only one existing in this place. The flexibility shown by the greek side is much appreciated as we all see.

5. No veto has been given to you in the EU ,yet.

[mike00]

Dear Amarantos;

1. Stop blaming others for the state your country is in. The lack of democracy is a fact in Skopje and this is one of the reasons you are not getting any invitation for NATO and EU. You are not inspiring any confidence as a democratic country. See the 1 june elections for istance.
========
FYI
Try free election with "your Albanian", and you will see ... By the way with this kind of arrogance, from Greece goverment and people like you, it will be not be far when Albanian syndrome will knock on your door.
And We was got invitation in NATO and Greece put veto. See for yourself man :rolleyes:
Greece rejects Macedonia Nato bid <link>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7280723.stm</link>
Greece flexes muscles in Macedonia name spat
<link>http://euobserver.com/15/26367</link>

2. Your counrty and its people should learn a basic rule. When one wants to enter a club, those who make already part of that particular club have by definition the right to judge if the candidate worths it to became an equal. In this process there are those who agree and those who oppose. Simple.
========
Club is place for higher interest, not personal. For personal conflict, there are two solutions, court or negotiations. All clubs where personal problem are on the first place are with short terms, or low power. Anyway till Europe have this kind of problem, USA will be number one force in the World. By the way you are in union, or club together with Turkey in NATO, aren't you ... ? And sometime there are some incidentally fire, between your and Turkey's army forces :) And there is no conflict about Cypros, isn't there ?

3. Greece is only practising a right. When fyrom (and if fyrom) becomes a member in these organizations ,it will enjoy the same right. When it will exercise it towards a third part,i guess you won't be talking about "real face and "democracy" etc" stories.
========

By the time people in R. Macedonia and for it is for EU tragedy too, start to think that this kind of "democracy" using "muscle forces" is something what they do not need ... Do you thing that for example Texas in USA can block goods for other states. No way :p

4. The EU just said to Skopje that it should stop acting like a spoiled child and behave itself ,since it's not the only one existing in this place. The flexibility shown by the greek side is much appreciated as we all see.
========
Just see in one my comment what R. Macedonia did, for the opposite Greece did nothing, but just show "muscle force" :)
1. Change flag
2. Constitution
"Last week the Greek Foreign Minister Michalis Papaconstantinou was in Washington, and I had a chance to ask him about this whole business. He maintains that for Macedonia to "adopt a Greek name" is a "provocation" that "implies territorial claims against us."

Never mind that Macedonia's constitution explicitly disavows any such claim."
<link>www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,976668,00.html?promoid=googlep</link>
Does Greek's constitution says the same, and will not question oter coutries for own ethic groups. And the Last we accept one of the Nimic's names, Greece refuse all. So who is actin like a child ...

5. No veto has been given to you in the EU ,yet.
========
Not yet, your kind off right in this point, because EU, not Greece is trying to avoid this kind act of "democracy". But obviously it was kind of veto :huh:

[Draco]

Are you saying that "democracy" requires that FYROM be given a free pass into NATO and the EU? We are talking about international organizations, what does "democracy" have to do with any of this? "Democracy" refers to a system of government, not an interstate relations formula. "Democracy" is not an issue here and only arises in relation to FYROM's NATO and EU bids in poor rhetoric.

As far as Greece is concerned good neighborly relations (including a solution to the name dispute) is a vital criterion for membership of both NATO and the EU. Since all members have veto power, any member can impose new membership criteria. It is not "muscle force", it is now legally an membership criterion (regardless of what the USA says, Bush's word is not law). If your country does not meet it, membership is unavailable.

[Amarantos]

Try free election with "your Albanian", and you will see

Albanians in Greece are economical immigrants. They are not a minority as in the case of Skopje, they are not greek citizens to participate to national elections.


... By the way with this kind of arrogance, from Greece goverment and people like you, it will be not be far when Albanian syndrome will knock on your door.

Greece is not a mirror where you and your politicians can reflect yourselves.

And We was got invitation in NATO and Greece put veto. See for yourself man :rolleyes:
Greece rejects Macedonia Nato bid <link>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7280723.stm</link>
Greece flexes muscles in Macedonia name spat
<link>http://euobserver.com/15/26367</link>

Obviously you are not able to understand that the attitude your country follows does not comply with good neighbourly relations.


Club is place for higher interest, not personal. For personal conflict, there are two solution, court or negotiations. All clubs where personal problem are on the first place are with short terms, or low power. Anyway till Europe have this kind of problem, USA will be number one force in the World. By the way you are in union, or club together with Turkey in NATO, are you ... ? And sometime there are some incidentally, fire between your and Turkey's army forces :)

By guranteing the "personal" -as you say- interest of Greece, the collective interest of the club is safeguarded.
The name issue is the last of the problems the EU has to deal with so as to confront the USA lol
Strangely Skopje gives its best to accommodate the US, so it's kinda contradicting what you say.

YouTube - Extrajudicial execution of Asian immigrants by FYROM. Part 1


The Nato organization hasn't got any jurisdiction in the "fire" you are refering to.


By the time people in R. Macedonia and for EU tragedy start to thin that this kind of "democracy" using "muscle forces" is something what they do not need ... Do you thing that for example Texas in USA can block goods for other states. No way :p

No need to be so sensitive. You can always stay on your ultranationalist positions refuse to ask an EU invitation and not create problems to others.
Irrelevant example the one with texas.


1. Change flag
2. Constitution
"Last week the Greek Foreign Minister Michalis Papaconstantinou was in Washington, and I had a chance to ask him about this whole business. He maintains that for Macedonia to "adopt a Greek name" is a "provocation" that "implies territorial claims against us."

Do you know when Papaconstantinou was Greece's foreign minister?
Since then Greece has changed its position ,accepting a compound name as a compromise, for your country.
The flag you used in the begining was a clear provocation, and revealed a country with some ill ambitions.


Never mind that Macedonia's constitution explicitly disavows any such claim."
<link>www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,976668,00.html?promoid=googlep</link>
Does Greek's constitution says the same, and will not question oter coutries for own ethic groups. And the Last we accept one of the Nimic's names, Greece refuse all. So who is actin like a child ...

Greece accepted the second Nimitz proposal as a start for negotiations which Skopje refused. Inform yourself better.
Instead of the improvements made with the flag etc , the propaganda did not stop by Skopje. We had the chance to see what your bishop said 3 weeks ago, we see what your school texts say, what official internet sites report etc.


Not yet, your kind off right in this point, because EU, not Greece is trying to avoid this kind act of "democracy". But obviously it was kind of veto :huh:

Democracy has nothing to do with the veto applied to you in NATO or in EE in the future. Obviously this is another word which meaning you fail to understand. Greece democratically made use of its right to veto Skopje. If it was an undemocratic thing ,no such right would have been given to Greece or any other country.

[mike00]

interstate relations formula organization - means alliance, and R. Macedonia do not tend to be in alliance were other do not respect it.

EU tend to be one country for all Europeans states, so "Democracy" refers to a system of EU government ;)

good neighborly relations is not one way street, it is necessary good wishes from both sides

membership criterion is not place for resolving personal conflict between members or members and other, and veto is not solution for conflicts, it is a tool to block other in a way to be hurt member from others with future action. So definitely not a way for resolving personal conflicts.;)

[mike00]

Hello Amarantos,

Thank you for your comments, they say a all lot ;),
I really have to learn for this world from you, I'm honest

I'm gonna suggest my country to accept anything, but after to change it's minds. Really good strategy

Second proposal,
You mean this in November 2007:
Athens: Nimitz’s Proposals Are Unacceptable
<link>http://www.greeknewsonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3858</link>
or (in April 2008) Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) which R. Macedonia accept but Greece not, and put Veto for Macedonian membership in NATO

[Draco]

interstate relations formula organization - means alliance, and R. Macedonia do not tend to be in alliance were other do not respect it.
Don't join NATO then, we won't miss you. :)
EU tend to be one country for all Europeans states, sp "Democracy" refers to a system of EU government ;)
The EU is not a country, it is an international organization. "Democracy" refers to the citizen's relations with the state, not the relations between two states.
good neighborly relations is not one way street, it is necessary good wishes from both sides
Sure, which is why FYROM has a right to expect good neighborly relations from Greece. If however FYROM fails the good neighborly relations criterion and threatens Greece's national security, you can't expect Greece to turn a blind eye to it.
membership criterion is not place for personal conflict between members or members and other, veto is way not for conflict, it is a tool to block other in a way hurt member with future action from others. So definitely not a tool for resolving personal conflicts.;)
It's not a "personal conflict" for Greece, it is a matter of national security. When we are threatened by an aggressive irredentist banana republic, Greece has a right to take all legal measures necessary to safeguard her security. It goes without saying that as long as FYROM follows such irredentist policies there can be no alliance (in NATO) between the two countries.

[mike00]

<link>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krste_Misirkov</link>:rolleyes:

Krste Misirkov in an article titled "Macedonian Nationalism" he wrote: "I hope it will not be held against me that I, as a Macedonian, place the interests of my country before all... I am a Macedonian, I have a Macedonian's consciousness, and so I have my own Macedonian view of the past, present, and future of my country and of all the South Slavs; and so I should like them to consult us, the Macedonians, about all the questions concerning us and our neighbors, and not have everything end merely with agreements between Bulgaria and Serbia about us - but without us.

[kostas68]

We are very close, with little difference, from of point of view to history.
First there is two different forces in any nation. One to join with other close nations, and one nationalism, to dominate over others. All formal Yugoslavia nations are close in their language.
Don't bring as example the establishment of the Yougoslavian state,where closely related ethnicities joined and formed one sovereign state entity,in order to justificate the will of your ancestors to join with Bulgaria.At first,the Serbians,Croatians and Slovenians did never stop calling themselves by their real ethnic names and they were also considered by the neutrals as Serbians,Croatians and Slovenians,unlike the nowadays <Macedonians> who were considered as Bulgarians and called themselves by this name.
Now back to Macedonians. Greek, Bulgaria and Serbia, was independent and with young but strong army, with university, goverment etc.
Have you ever wonder yourselve why there wasn't never an independent Slavic-<Macedonian> state,neither in modern times nor in medieval?There were Bulgarian kingdom in medieval time,Serbian,Croatian but not a Slavic-<Macedonian> one.We also have written texts in these languages form medieval times,but not in the Slavic-<Macedonian>.
Sadly but Slavic Macedonian was still under Turkey Maybe you never heard, or was by impression what Bulgarian say for Slavic Macedonian history, and they always want to assimilate them, but there was several tries to make Slavic Macedonian free country:

NY Times Captures Macedonian Struggle for Freedom in 1900s
<link>http://umdiaspora.org/images/NYT/nyt.jpg</link>
The term Macedonians is used here by its geographical meaning.How can you prove that they meant ethnic <Macedonians> and not geographically.If we find a newspaper that mentioned Bavarians or Sicilians,that means that there were such ethnicities?
On the beginning even Greeks was cooperating with Slavic Macedonian in fight with Turkey see <link>http://umdiaspora.org/images/NYT/108245140.pdf</link>
The same goes here,the term Macedonians has geographical meaning and probably those Macedonians were Greeks from the region of Macedonia,otherwise the Greeks wouldn't help them.Therefore it's most likeky that those <Macedonians> who are mentioned in the other newspaper,that they were betrayed by the Greeks,were actually Bulgarians from Macedonia.
There are several tries for freedom, but only one was well organized, Ilinden in Krusevo, leaded by Goce Delcev born in Kukush

Macedonian Republic in Krusevo:
<link>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo</link>
<link>http://flagspot.net/flags/mk_1903.html</link>

Goce Delcev
<link>http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/goce-delchev/biography.html</link>

Can you imagine, Bulgarian even today celebrate Ilinden, but it is not try for "Macedonian's Bulgarians" freedom. It was Slavic Macedonian, not Bulgarian, not Serbian. See what Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek propaganda was doing at that time:
<link>http://umdiaspora.org/images/NYT/101944495.pdf</link>
<link>http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lect11.htm</link>
read bellow after "Who are the Macedonians?"
I didn't read all this for first time and i know very well what was the Illinden uprise and by whom was organized.I know very well that in Krusevo were living many Greeks or Vlachs who identified themselves as Greeks.If you notice in the bottom,you'll find a Greek academic from Krusevo mentioned and a leader of the revolutionaries was Pitu Galli,a Vlach.If you read carefully the whole article,it writes that <the declaration of the "Manifesto of Krushevo" called for all the people of Macedonia regardless of their nationality and religion to fight together against the Ottoman Empire and live peacefully in a free country of Macedonia>.So,the uprise wasn't ethnic <Macedonian>,it was addressing to all the people that lived in Macedonia at that time.And who were they?Take a look :
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/modern-macedonian-history/7127-macedonians-1854-were-bulgarians.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7276-frenchman-macedonia-1854-a.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7427-makedonien-landshafts-und-kulturbilder-1927-a.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7437-memoirs-ionian-islands-1816-a.html

I have reason to hate Albanian, they almost killed my uncle (he was child at that time, and sill all our family money, living as poor and without home (burn). But without bad influence from propaganda, today I know that not all Albanian are bad, and I do not hate them. So my try is to show Greek people to try better understood history, be more critic and stop fighting between each other and star live together, critic our governments.
And I do not agree that all involved in war have to be hunted and killed, it is fascistic politic. Does any other country kill and hunt all enemy solder, just leaders and creators, ask yourself ...
I didn't hate your people,my friend.I don't know and i can't speak about the feelings of the other Greeks here,but personally i didn't hate you.I'm just geting anger with all this attempt to usurp our history,but there is no hate.And as for those who were involved in war and the <revenge>,it wasn't a tactical war with tactical army and soldiers,it was a cruel struggle at a cruel era in a semi-barbarian land,as Ottoman Macedonia was and later we had a Bulgarian occupation in Eastern Macedonia.That means there were commited several attrocities,and blood brings always blood,especially when the enslaved of yesterday become the new masters.I don't approve all this,i just explained why those people ran away,it wasn't the official Greek politic that forced them to do this but their fear that they would suffer what they commited against the Greeks.
People with Aleksandr the great was disappear, mixed with others.
You say this because it suits you,but the truth is that they are still living in the same place where Alexander did and they speak the same language with him.

[4runner]

So my try is to show Greek people to try better understood history, be more critic and stop fighting between each other and star live together, critic our governments.
I think you will find that Greeks are quite critical of their government, in the sense that they don't believe the government did nearly enough in response to your government's claims when it had the opportunity. Your issue is with the Greek people of Macedonia, for it is their history and heritage which you attempt to steal.

[Amarantos]

You mean this in November 2007:
Athens: Nimitz’s Proposals Are Unacceptable
<link>http://www.greeknewsonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3858</link>
or (in April 2008) Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) which R. Macedonia accept but Greece not, and put Veto for Macedonian membership in NATO


Greece accepted on April 2005 as a basis for further negotiations the name "Republika Makedonija-Skopje" (in this form in cyrillic with no other translation) for all uses proposed by the mediator Nimitz ,which Skopje refused.


http://www.balkan-info.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2005/04/14/feature-02

I'm gonna suggest my country to accept anything, but after to change it's minds. Really good strategy

That would not be a surprise ,since your country often consumes itself in this kind of practises.
If showing good will to resolve this dispute as the greek government has done despite the opposite stance of the greek people on the issue, is seen simply as "a change of mind" by your politicians and your people, it's not a surprise too that you continue with ultranationalist practises showing no flexibility and avoiding to assume as a political leadership the responsability of a solution-compromise, all things that will eventually lead you to isolation.

[mike00]

Dear frends,

Kostas you are doing great job collecting document for people who write something, about Macedonia's region and fond no Slavic Macedonian. I can find the same number of document which show opposite (explore little bit web site MakNews <link>www.maknews.com</link>. I try to use independent sources based on facts and/or witnesses (not travelers, visitors, which actually is very easy to be behind some influence). As a travelers I was speaking in Macedonian (not Bulgarian, for us and Bulgarians, it's ease to divide difference, and some Bulgarian even do not uderstand Macedonian language) with a lot of people on Halkidiki - Greece (of course after few days know me, because they are afraid to show their real Slavic Macedonian root, and I'm sorry for you but they are consider as Macedonians and Slavic) And See here why they are afraid:
Greek LAOS deputy demands death penalty for Macedonians
<link>umdiaspora.org/content/view/343/52/</link> (is this democracy, for "one coutry" not "EU union"). And you can see here open kind of "flexes muscles", and "critic" to Greece goverment.
target Macedonian people andm members of EFA-Rainbow :: Macedonian Political Party in Greece
<link>florina.org</link>

Probably Greece forget history, when the Greek cites fight between until they consider a one nation. We are wetness that it happen, see the new nations around (what was born is former Soviet Union, ans still Irish and Basque do not have their own country). This process takes hundred and hundred years without enemy around. So that why it take time Slavic Macedonian to filter themself as a separate nation. And that's the way those few millions people in Macedonia, and like me out, to have filling for separate nation. And Bulgarian still can dream for more biger Bulgaria, (there are big number of Macedonians which ask for Bulgarian passport, but reason is same, economic, and they will continue to fill Macedonian, as new Greece's immigration when reach Greece password will continue to fill "little different". from Greeks.

I'm not historian, and let say my knowledge is wrong (what is at list far from the reality), the true is, I'm Slavic Macedonian, but not Bulgarian, and not Serbian, and all propaganda from our neighbors to me are well known and to me not way for future. (By the way maybe you recognize one Bulgarian was join in our discussion, with try to be provocative :), an of course he know that I'm his "brother Bulgarian", and he try to "help" me :) )

And My grands unfortantly was involved in Illinden Upraise and he know that all of them at that time was filling as Slavic Macedonian, and they work with Albanian and Vlachs together to fights Tucky's army.

I have several Vlachs, few of them are my best friends. The Vlachs's language is far, far from Greek language (to be Greek people). Do you understand this in Vlachs's language:
"Shtits armaneashti va s-dzaca. Am shi mini un sots cari vrea s-anveatsa armaneashti. Putets sa-nj dzatsets cum poati s-yina la cursuri? Haristo multu di nainti. Asteptu apandisea voastra. Avets adresa mea di mail"

And wife of my bruter if for example I say EFA-Rainbow is Anti-Greek propaganda, is life witness for what happen in Greece. Born in Florina, name Eleftheria (sorry if I spell wrongly, and understand that she can take only Greece's name according by that time Greece's law) means Liberty, Slobodanka in Macedonian, on the end Dance.

And dear "4runner" we are not stilling Greek History, we just say that Greek do not have exclusive rights on name and everything what happened in the past in Macedonia. For the rest about Aleksandar the Great and my opinion (and a lot of people), with I wrote in some of my other comments.

When people in Greece will understand all those things and Reality of Slavic Macedonian Nation what is not Bulgarians or Serbians, you will find one of the best friends in your neighbor, as Business which do not know for the borders, found in Macedonia. Visit as and you will see how many Greece's company, stores you will see in any city in R. Macedonia.

When I start to speak in this forum I was expecting only negative rhetoric from other because this this is of course for Greek Nationalism Forum "Macedonia Forum > Macedonia - Macedonian History Forum > Macedonia Ideas and Essays > Anti-Greek Macedonia Propaganda", but it was not reason for anyone who want to hear other site, to try to speak together, eve without conclusion, accepted for both sides.

Maybe someone of your family was hurt on some way from Slavic Macedonian, especially when they was "leaded" from "good brother Bulgarian", which seeded Macedonian with hate filling to Greece nation. I'm deeply, deeply apologize from all Macedonian Slavic people for this sad things from history.

I wrote to senator Obama, and receive the answer, that he fill sorry abut his steps in the past, and all current Greece news writes things based on speculation taken from the time before and when he start 2008 Presidential Campaign he was wrongly informed, and apologize to me and Macedonian people. Maybe he lie me, maybe not, who's knows. I hope he saying the true.

I'm thinking on US American way, so I do not have a lot of time for history (which not means that I'm not reading science staff in my free time), I'm think more for future and knowing that time will clear the co conflict things, when all involved party will freely start speak together, but if I (we, not historians) missed time at this moment, we can lost some better good adventure in future. I done my job here, in a way to show that noone dislike Geek in Macedonia (there are little nuber of exception of course), just people fill sorry for this poor rhetoric from Greece government. And this job will be fully successful if we start discussion more about how to start step by step to relax current political trend. Hopefully in the future :). I'm believing

Thank you my frends and best wishes to anyone,

PS.
I wold like to have a chance to meet the people which I discus here, and chat freely with some cafe, but I barrier of no enough free time, and even maybe if I have a chance to take vacation in Greece and meet you, right know I do not like to go there hiding to say that I'm Macedonian, because I will worry from Greek's revenge

I uderstand and absolutely agree with you Kostas in this and I will be happy when most of Greeks will follow you:
"That means there were commited several attrocities,and blood brings always blood,especially when the enslaved of yesterday become the new masters.I don't approve all this,i just explained why those people ran away,it wasn't the official Greek politic that forced them to do this but their fear that they would suffer what they commited against the Greeks"

But Greece goverment is first one which have to stop it and punish. I see wetness which suffer on their business travel because they say "I'm Macedonian" or have MK on their car. The Greece police was witness and they just watched it, doing nothing. Our one airplane can't fly, even for transit, over Greece air, because the name. see also.
Greek LAOS deputy demands death penalty for Macedonians
<link>umdiaspora.org/content/view/343/52/</link>, is this legal accordion by Greece's constitution or EU rules.

Again thank you to everyone

[Foti66]

Dear frends,

Kostas you are doing great job collecting document for people who write something, about Macedonia's region and fond no Slavic Macedonian. I can find the same number of document which show opposite (explore little bit web site MakNews <link>www.maknews.com</link>.

:heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh:

Mike, from this point on there is no need to read anything further you have written. I am sorry.

[kostas68]

And dear "4runner" we are not stilling Greek History, we just say that Greek do not have exclusive rights on name and everything what happened in the past in Macedonia.
Now i'll ask you something simple:do you believe that you have the exclusive right on your father's property,or it's fair to share it with other,irelevant to your family people?For us,our history and legacy is something more valuable than any other property.
When people in Greece will understand all those things and Reality of Slavic Macedonian Nation what is not Bulgarians or Serbians
When your people understand that you have of course the right to feel something different from the Bulgarians and call yourselves by different name,but no one right to call yourselves by a name that doesn't belongs to you,neither ethnological or historical nor cultural,then things will be much better.

[Amarantos]

Greek LAOS deputy demands death penalty for Macedonians
<link>umdiaspora.org/content/view/343/52/</link> (is this democracy, for "one coutry" not "EU union"). And you can see here open kind of "flexes muscles", and "critic" to Greece goverment.
target ""Macedonian"" people andm members of EFA-Rainbow :: ""Macedonian"" Political Party in Greece
<link>florina.org</link>


Greek LAOS deputy demands death penalty for Macedonians
<link>umdiaspora.org/content/view/343/52/</link>, is this legal accordion by Greece's constitution or EU rules

Since you state that you try to use independent sources based on facts, it's quite stange you contented yourself with the information present in the "UMD" web page, on an argument so important as the one of the death penalty.

The article you provide (and the article of the RAINBOW party as well) are fraudulent.

We see that using obviously wikipedia as a source ,the "UMG" web page article reports that:

The last time a death penalty was executed in Greece was on 25 August 1972, when Vasilis Limbersis was shot because he had killed his wife, mother-in-law, and two children. The Greek state abolished the death penalty, except for treason and serious war crimes.

http://www.umdiaspora.org/content/view/343/52


But the wikipedia article is not quite finishing at that point:

In Greece the last execution took place on the 25th of August 1972. The 27 year old Vassils Lymberis was shot by firing squad for the murder of his wife, mother-in-law and two children on the island of Crete.

Capital punishment was abolished for peacetime crimes other than treason in 1993. In 1997 Greece ratified the Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, aiming at the abolition of the death penalty; however, a reservation was made allowing for death penalty use for the most serious crimes of a military nature committed during wartime. Protocol No. 6 to the European Convention on Human Rights, providing for the abolition of the death penalty in peacetime, was ratified in 1998.

Greece abolished the death penalty for all crimes in 2004; in 2005, Greece ratified the Protocol No. 13 to the ECHR, concerning the abolition of the death penalty under all circumstances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Greece


So your compatriots before making such shameful claims should inform themselves better or at least try not to spread lies. You too.


I see wetness which suffer on their business travel because they say "I'm Macedonian" or have MK on their car. The Greece police was witness and they just watched it, doing nothing.

Those skopje citizens who reported damages in their trucks ,reported them ONLY to the skopjan police once they crossed the border. The fact that they avoided to go and report them to the closest police station while being still in Greece is quite suspicious. Noone saw in Greece these alleged damages -certainly not the police- , only the skopjan media were able to discover them.

We all saw this kind of damage in greek property though, caused by some "courageous" skopjan...

YouTube - ???????? ?????? - Greek Car Vandalized in FYROM; 03-IV-2008

...the attacks against the liaison office of Greece in Skopje last february or even the attacks to greek journalists.

http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=20.02.2008,id=48238872

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/8036/

Or even the attack to the greek liaison office in Skopje again, back on July 2001.

http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=2&folder=321&article=8147


I wrote to senator Obama, and receive the answer, that he fill sorry abut his steps in the past, and all current Greece news writes things based on speculation taken from the time before and when he start 2008 Presidential Campaign he was wrongly informed, and apologize to me and ""Macedonian"" people. Maybe he lie me, maybe not, who's knows. I hope he saying the true.


Would you be kind enough to post here the answer you received by Barack Obama?

[american_macedonian]

Just to say... this is a great discussion board. I think Mike needs some help but so far he is doing a good job in explaining his arguments.

Here is my opinion about the Macedonian issue:

1) Macedonia is a brand name and will survive for a long long time. Who ever tries to erase it will not succeed.

2) The history repeats.

3) The cycles repeat. (look at Spain it won the European Ch. after 44 years and beat Italy after 88 years)

4) Republic of Macedonia is a country that could unite the region (after the macedonian minorities are recognized in the surrounding)

4a) Sooner or Later in the near future Bulgaria will recognize the Macedonian minority that could create more problems for greece.

5) Greece has to accept the Macedonian minority and to return the taken land to their owners.

6) In the future Macedonia will become the model of Europe. It will become an idea not just a country were people could express their religion, etnicity, use the language of the minorities in local governments and schools.

7) Greece has created the issue with the name. Greece has to solve it before it creates more problems.

8) USA supportts Macedonia because it knows the importance of Macedonia in the slavic countries and the importance of the teritory of Macedonia. (by the way the Macedonians didn't come to Macedonia in the 6th century)

9) The name issue should be a low priority of the Republic of Macedonia. They should keep negotiating just to show to the world how rediculos Greece is and bring many issues on the agenda that Greece has to deal with. The new governemt of Macedonia should make Macedonia the new Switzerland of the Balkans.(they are among the top reformers in the world)

10) Macedonia and Greece should solve their problems and should live in harmony. We don't need Sarkozy or any politician to invoke the past and start provoking anybody. Change your beliefs, erase the ego and live in the present.

About Obama. I have exchanged few emails with him about the Macedonain issue and he is fully aware of the minority issues and the name issue. However if he wins the policy towards Macedonia will not change. At some point he was calling the Republic of Macedonia as FYROM but after pointing to him that he is a Senator of the United States and not the United Nations he changed his language. Just imagine how does he feel when people call him Osama instead of Obama, do you think that he will force the Republic of Macedonia to change the name.

This is my only post don't expect any replies. Do not feel like trying to prove anything.

[kzk842]

Just to say... this is a great discussion board. I think Mike needs some help but so far he is doing a good job in explaining his arguments.

Here is my opinion about the Macedonian issue:

1) Macedonia is a brand name and will survive for a long long time. Who ever tries to erase it will not succeed.

2) The history repeats.

3) The cycles repeat. (look at Spain it won the European Ch. after 44 years and beat Italy after 88 years)

4) Republic of Macedonia is a country that could unite the region (after the macedonian minorities are recognized in the surrounding)

4a) Sooner or Later in the near future Bulgaria will recognize the Macedonian minority that could create more problems for greece.

5) Greece has to accept the Macedonian minority and to return the taken land to their owners.

6) In the future Macedonia will become the model of Europe. It will become an idea not just a country were people could express their religion, etnicity, use the language of the minorities in local governments and schools.

7) Greece has created the issue with the name. Greece has to solve it before it creates more problems.

8) USA supportts Macedonia because it knows the importance of Macedonia in the slavic countries and the importance of the teritory of Macedonia. (by the way the Macedonians didn't come to Macedonia in the 6th century)

9) The name issue should be a low priority of the Republic of Macedonia. They should keep negotiating just to show to the world how rediculos Greece is and bring many issues on the agenda that Greece has to deal with. The new governemt of Macedonia should make Macedonia the new Switzerland of the Balkans.(they are among the top reformers in the world)

10) Macedonia and Greece should solve their problems and should live in harmony. We don't need Sarkozy or any politician to invoke the past and start provoking anybody. Change your beliefs, erase the ego and live in the present.

About Obama. I have exchanged few emails with him about the Macedonain issue and he is fully aware of the minority issues and the name issue. However if he wins the policy towards Macedonia will not change. At some point he was calling the Republic of Macedonia as FYROM but after pointing to him that he is a Senator of the United States and not the United Nations he changed his language. Just imagine how does he feel when people call him Osama instead of Obama, do you think that he will force the Republic of Macedonia to change the name.

This is my only post don't expect any replies. Do not feel like trying to prove anything.

1) No problem but is not your name.
2) The sun is shining
3) Ore papaki paei stin potamia...
4) The question is: Can Bulgaria recognise a minority of Bulgarians in Bulgaria? :D
5) The question is: Can Greece recognise a minority of Bulgarian carnivals as "Macedonians" in Macedonians
6) In the future the Albanians will make you "models"
7) Greece has create a lot of stuff through centuries...one of them was Macedonia that you are trying to steal..
8) USA supports West Bulgaria cause they want something to do in your land and when they will do it...they will be out of there the next day...ask us we have experience about that
9) I believe that West Bulgaria will be the next country that will have an astronaut to the moon.
Dont you see that no reality means no future for you?
10) I agree we should live in harmony and you first of all to live in reality,you must stop having maps with my home inside them,stop saying Thessaloniki will be the capital of West Bulgaria,stop the bullshits about our history,you must realise that you are Bulgarians that talk Bulgarian language.
And of course we dont need Bush to create a monster nation in our neighboor with Bulgarians,Albanians,Roma,Servs and Greek Vlachs for citizens,Bulgarian for language,history of the Greeks,of Bulgarians and everyone else make the mistake to pass by through this area...

[Foti66]

Just to say... this is a great discussion board. I think Mike needs some help but so far he is doing a good job in explaining his arguments.

Here is my opinion about the Macedonian issue:

1) Macedonia is a brand name and will survive for a long long time. Who ever tries to erase it will not succeed.

2) The history repeats.

3) The cycles repeat. (look at Spain it won the European Ch. after 44 years and beat Italy after 88 years)

4) Republic of Macedonia is a country that could unite the region (after the macedonian minorities are recognized in the surrounding)

4a) Sooner or Later in the near future Bulgaria will recognize the Macedonian minority that could create more problems for greece.

5) Greece has to accept the Macedonian minority and to return the taken land to their owners.

6) In the future Macedonia will become the model of Europe. It will become an idea not just a country were people could express their religion, etnicity, use the language of the minorities in local governments and schools.

7) Greece has created the issue with the name. Greece has to solve it before it creates more problems.

8) USA supportts Macedonia because it knows the importance of Macedonia in the slavic countries and the importance of the teritory of Macedonia. (by the way the Macedonians didn't come to Macedonia in the 6th century)

9) The name issue should be a low priority of the Republic of Macedonia. They should keep negotiating just to show to the world how rediculos Greece is and bring many issues on the agenda that Greece has to deal with. The new governemt of Macedonia should make Macedonia the new Switzerland of the Balkans.(they are among the top reformers in the world)

10) Macedonia and Greece should solve their problems and should live in harmony. We don't need Sarkozy or any politician to invoke the past and start provoking anybody. Change your beliefs, erase the ego and live in the present.

About Obama. I have exchanged few emails with him about the Macedonain issue and he is fully aware of the minority issues and the name issue. However if he wins the policy towards Macedonia will not change. At some point he was calling the Republic of Macedonia as FYROM but after pointing to him that he is a Senator of the United States and not the United Nations he changed his language. Just imagine how does he feel when people call him Osama instead of Obama, do you think that he will force the Republic of Macedonia to change the name.

This is my only post don't expect any replies. Do not feel like trying to prove anything.

1. It is imperative that FYROM gets its head out of communisms ass.
2. It is imperative that FYROM's government stop its idiotic nationalist nonsense.
2. It is imperative that FYROM educates its people about who they really are.
3. It is imperative that FYROM's diaspora nutbags (like yourself) get a western education so that you don't continue to disgrace yourselves and your country in the public forum.

[Draco]

6) In the future Macedonia will become the model of Europe. It will become an idea not just a country were people could express their religion, etnicity, use the language of the minorities in local governments and schools.
9) The name issue should be a low priority of the Republic of Macedonia. They should keep negotiating just to show to the world how rediculos Greece is and bring many issues on the agenda that Greece has to deal with. The new governemt of Macedonia should make Macedonia the new Switzerland of the Balkans.(they are among the top reformers in the world).
:D :D :D

All FYROM can be is the ethnically divided economic shithole of the Balkans.

[Victor]

About Obama. I have exchanged few emailsANd I played tennis with him yesterday.:rolleyes:

[TALOS]

4) Republic of Macedonia is a country that could unite the region (after the macedonian minorities are recognized in the surrounding)


6) In the future Macedonia will become the model of Europe. It will become an idea not just a country were people could express their religion, etnicity, use the language of the minorities in local governments and schools.


http://www.scbg.net/Emoticons/64971.gif

hey mate tell us what u smoke so we could get some too. i bet this guy has seen his home country only on postcards

[Vasot]

There is a internet war between Greece & Fyrom going on in one for the most important forums of Barrack Obama !!

Become members and give your answers

See here:
http://www.barackopedia.org/thread/811638/macedonia+vs+greece?offset=1280

Help in clearing the lies of the Fyromians !!!

[edessa]

There is a internet war between Greece & Fyrom going on in one for the most important forums of Barrack Obama !!

Become members and give your answers

See here:
http://www.barackopedia.org/thread/811638/macedonia+vs+greece?offset=1280

Help in clearing the lies of the Fyromians !!!

YouTube - OBAMA TALKS ABOUT THE GREEK ISSUES

Goodbye Fyrom. Man, gruevski must be shitting his pants if obama wins. The guy is a bigger philhellene than jeff kennet and mike rahn combined lol

[Relax be]

Politics is a blood sport. What does it mean to Obama to give support to a larger of the two communities? Do you think he has an actual sympathy for our cause? He goes to a church that is lead by the type of black leaders that support Black Athena, Call Romans (Italians) garlic lovers or such stupid insults.

That he has chosen to support Greece in the topic is one thing, but giving him more credit is the same foolishness as the Skopje give to support from China.

That is a very rational and pragmatic comment New Politics. Good to see.

[Petros Houhoulis]

interstate relations formula organization - means alliance, and R. Macedonia do not tend to be in alliance were other do not respect it.

EU tend to be one country for all Europeans states, so "Democracy" refers to a system of EU government ;)

good neighborly relations is not one way street, it is necessary good wishes from both sides

membership criterion is not place for resolving personal conflict between members or members and other, and veto is not solution for conflicts, it is a tool to block other in a way to be hurt member from others with future action. So definitely not a way for resolving personal conflicts.;)

Get your "United Malakedonia" maps from your school's walls and books and your brains, and we can talk about it.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Hello Amarantos,

Thank you for your comments, they say a all lot ;),
I really have to learn for this world from you, I'm honest

I'm gonna suggest my country to accept anything, but after to change it's minds. Really good strategy

Second proposal,
You mean this in November 2007:
Athens: Nimitz’s Proposals Are Unacceptable
<link>http://www.greeknewsonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3858</link>
or (in April 2008) Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) which R. Macedonia accept but Greece not, and put Veto for Macedonian membership in NATO

I'm gonna suggest that Greece blocks your country indefinately until it falls apart, that shall happen when you shall no longer be more than 50%. We have to wait for the Albanians to multiply and destroy you...

[Petros Houhoulis]

<link>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krste_Misirkov</link>:rolleyes:

Krste Misirkov in an article titled "Macedonian Nationalism" he wrote: "I hope it will not be held against me that I, as a Macedonian, place the interests of my country before all... I am a Macedonian, I have a Macedonian's consciousness, and so I have my own Macedonian view of the past, present, and future of my country and of all the South Slavs; and so I should like them to consult us, the Macedonians, about all the questions concerning us and our neighbors, and not have everything end merely with agreements between Bulgaria and Serbia about us - but without us.

Was that the member of the Bessarabian parliament? The proud Bessarabian Misirkov whose diary that he wrote in Odessa states that he is a Bulgarian?

Did you ever learn who was Misirkov my dear?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Dear frends,

Kostas you are doing great job collecting document for people who write something, about Macedonia's region and fond no Slavic Macedonian. I can find the same number of document which show opposite (explore little bit web site MakNews <link>www.maknews.com</link>.



We have seen Maknews and we know that it is created by you and biased towards you. Why don't you try wikipedia or any other international encyclopaedia?

The best source about you is the archives of the Ellis Island. According to its' records, there were some people who emigrated to the U.S.A. and declared themselves as "Macedonians", but they were the ~17% of all the people who lived in the lands of your current state. Even less people from Greece and Bulgaria declared themselves as "Macedonians" in the same records. I wonder how you increased from ~17% to almost 70% in your country after WWII.



I try to use independent sources based on facts and/or witnesses (not travelers, visitors, which actually is very easy to be behind some influence). As a travelers I was speaking in Macedonian (not Bulgarian, for us and Bulgarians, it's ease to divide difference, and some Bulgarian even do not uderstand Macedonian language) with a lot of people on Halkidiki - Greece (of course after few days know me, because they are afraid to show their real Slavic Macedonian root, and I'm sorry for you but they are consider as Macedonians and Slavic)



Fairly impossible. According to the Carnegie committees' maps (Bulgarian claims and Serbian claims in Macedonia) that you shall find in the Perry/Castaneda library in Texas (through the internet) there were no Slavs living in Halkidiki. There are also very few voters from Halkidiki for Vinozhito (Ouranio Toxo) at any elections.



And See here why they are afraid:
Greek LAOS deputy demands death penalty for Macedonians
<link>umdiaspora.org/content/view/343/52/</link> (is this democracy, for "one coutry" not "EU union"). And you can see here open kind of "flexes muscles", and "critic" to Greece goverment.



Bullshit. This is what your diaspora spreads all over the internet, but there have not been any assassinations of any of your people in Greece during the last 3-4 decades at least. Why should we start now? We know who of you support Vinozhito, they are too few anyway.



target Macedonian people andm members of EFA-Rainbow :: Macedonian Political Party in Greece
<link>florina.org</link>

Probably Greece forget history, when the Greek cites fight between until they consider a one nation. We are wetness that it happen, see the new nations around (what was born is former Soviet Union, ans still Irish and Basque do not have their own country). This process takes hundred and hundred years without enemy around. So that why it take time Slavic Macedonian to filter themself as a separate nation.



The Macedonians are here since the Antiquity. You arrived during the Middle Ages and you expelled, massacred, pillaged and raped the Macedonians. You claim that you merged with the Macedonians, but there is no proof of it. In fact, the Macedonians are still chasing you and your positions around the globe...



And that's the way those few millions people in Macedonia, and like me out, to have filling for separate nation. And Bulgarian still can dream for more biger Bulgaria, (there are big number of Macedonians which ask for Bulgarian passport, but reason is same, economic, and they will continue to fill Macedonian, as new Greece's immigration when reach Greece password will continue to fill "little different". from Greeks.



The U.S. of A. was created the same way. If you are too much retarded and your people leave your country to make a better life, you should not blame Greece for that.



I'm not historian, and let say my knowledge is wrong (what is at list far from the reality), the true is, I'm Slavic Macedonian, but not Bulgarian, and not Serbian, and all propaganda from our neighbors to me are well known and to me not way for future. (By the way maybe you recognize one Bulgarian was join in our discussion, with try to be provocative :), an of course he know that I'm his "brother Bulgarian", and he try to "help" me :) )



We noticed that. You have been playing the same games with Slavicwolf.



And My grands unfortantly was involved in Illinden Upraise and he know that all of them at that time was filling as Slavic Macedonian, and they work with Albanian and Vlachs together to fights Tucky's army.



...But according to Misirkov the Bulgarians were heavily involved in the Illinden uprising and he blames them for the failure of the uprising. Perhaps quite a lot of them believed that they were Bulgarians, otherwise they would not have joined that cause.



I have several Vlachs, few of them are my best friends. The Vlachs's language is far, far from Greek language (to be Greek people). Do you understand this in Vlachs's language:
"Shtits armaneashti va s-dzaca. Am shi mini un sots cari vrea s-anveatsa armaneashti. Putets sa-nj dzatsets cum poati s-yina la cursuri? Haristo multu di nainti. Asteptu apandisea voastra. Avets adresa mea di mail"



The Vlach language is a Romance (Latin) dialect.



And wife of my bruter if for example I say EFA-Rainbow is Anti-Greek propaganda, is life witness for what happen in Greece. Born in Florina, name Eleftheria (sorry if I spell wrongly, and understand that she can take only Greece's name according by that time Greece's law) means Liberty, Slobodanka in Macedonian, on the end Dance.

And dear "4runner" we are not stilling Greek History, we just say that Greek do not have exclusive rights on name and everything what happened in the past in Macedonia. For the rest about Aleksandar the Great and my opinion (and a lot of people), with I wrote in some of my other comments.



You have no right to Ancient Macedonian history, because you invaded Macedonia and tried to wipe it off the map.



When people in Greece will understand all those things and Reality of Slavic Macedonian Nation what is not Bulgarians or Serbians, you will find one of the best friends in your neighbor, as Business which do not know for the borders, found in Macedonia. Visit as and you will see how many Greece's company, stores you will see in any city in R. Macedonia.



We do not care if you are Bulgarians or not. This is the Bulgarians' problem. Our point is that you are not Macedonians.



When I start to speak in this forum I was expecting only negative rhetoric from other because this this is of course for Greek Nationalism Forum "Macedonia Forum > Macedonia - Macedonian History Forum > Macedonia Ideas and Essays > Anti-Greek Macedonia Propaganda", but it was not reason for anyone who want to hear other site, to try to speak together, eve without conclusion, accepted for both sides.

Maybe someone of your family was hurt on some way from Slavic Macedonian, especially when they was "leaded" from "good brother Bulgarian", which seeded Macedonian with hate filling to Greece nation. I'm deeply, deeply apologize from all Macedonian Slavic people for this sad things from history.



We've done terrible things to each other during the beginning of the 20th century.



I wrote to senator Obama, and receive the answer, that he fill sorry abut his steps in the past, and all current Greece news writes things based on speculation taken from the time before and when he start 2008 Presidential Campaign he was wrongly informed, and apologize to me and Macedonian people. Maybe he lie me, maybe not, who's knows. I hope he saying the true.



Maybe you should listen to him and stop your irredentism towards Greece.



I'm thinking on US American way, so I do not have a lot of time for history (which not means that I'm not reading science staff in my free time), I'm think more for future and knowing that time will clear the co conflict things, when all involved party will freely start speak together, but if I (we, not historians) missed time at this moment, we can lost some better good adventure in future. I done my job here, in a way to show that noone dislike Geek in Macedonia (there are little nuber of exception of course), just people fill sorry for this poor rhetoric from Greece government. And this job will be fully successful if we start discussion more about how to start step by step to relax current political trend. Hopefully in the future :). I'm believing

Thank you my frends and best wishes to anyone,

PS.
I wold like to have a chance to meet the people which I discus here, and chat freely with some cafe, but I barrier of no enough free time, and even maybe if I have a chance to take vacation in Greece and meet you, right know I do not like to go there hiding to say that I'm Macedonian, because I will worry from Greek's revenge

I uderstand and absolutely agree with you Kostas in this and I will be happy when most of Greeks will follow you:
"That means there were commited several attrocities,and blood brings always blood,especially when the enslaved of yesterday become the new masters.I don't approve all this,i just explained why those people ran away,it wasn't the official Greek politic that forced them to do this but their fear that they would suffer what they commited against the Greeks"

But Greece goverment is first one which have to stop it and punish. I see wetness which suffer on their business travel because they say "I'm Macedonian" or have MK on their car. The Greece police was witness and they just watched it, doing nothing. Our one airplane can't fly, even for transit, over Greece air, because the name. see also.
Greek LAOS deputy demands death penalty for Macedonians
<link>umdiaspora.org/content/view/343/52/</link>, is this legal accordion by Greece's constitution or EU rules.

Again thank you to everyone

Your folks have done the same to Greek cars in Skopje. They even murdered a NATO soldier, sapper Ian Collins, during the past...

...And cut the crap about the LAOS deputy...