22.2.2008
Υπέρ των ισχυρισμών των Τσάμηδων τάσσονται Έλληνες ιστορικοί



«Άναψαν τα αίματα» σε παρουσίαση μελέτης ιστορικών του Κέντρου Ερευνών Μειονοτικών Ομάδων για τους Τσάμηδες στο Πάντειο Πανεπιστήμιο. Το ακροατήριο που αποτελείτο από φοιτητές και ιστορικούς μέχρι βορειοηπειρώτες και μέλη της «Χρυσής Αυγής», αντέδρασε έντονα, όταν οι επιστήμονες υποστήριξαν ότι οι Τσάμηδες στην Ήπειρο υπήρξαν θύματα του Ελληνικού στοιχείου, κάνοντας λόγο για 50.000 Τσάμηδες, ανάμεσα στους οποίους πολλοί εκδιώχθηκαν, δολοφονήθηκαν ή δημεύθηκαν οι περιουσίες τους.

Ένα τμήμα του κοινού άρχισε να αποδοκιμάζει έντονα στο άκουσμα ότι 75 Τσάμηδες εκτελέστηκαν στην Παραμυθιά από τους Έλληνες. Κάποιοι από το κοινό αντέτειναν ότι αποδεδειγμένα Τσάμηδες συνεργάστηκαν με τις κατοχικές Γερμανικές δυνάμεις, οδηγώντας στον θάνατο εκατοντάδες Έλληνες και βορειοηπειρώτες. Από την έρευνα τους οι καθηγητές του Κέντρου Μειονοτικών Ομάδων συμπεραίνουν, ότι οι περιουσίες των Αλβανόφωνων στη Θεσπρωτία δόθηκαν στους Έλληνες πρόσφυγες την διετία 1923-1925, προκαλώντας έντονες αποδοκιμασίες. Ένας από τους ιστορικούς που μετείχαν στη συζήτηση, υποστήριξε ότι οι Έλληνες της Βορείου Ηπείρου συμμάχησαν με τους Γερμανούς και ακολούθησε πανδαιμόνιο.

Την ίδια ώρα, Αλβανοί εθνικιστές προβάλουν στο internet μαρτυρίες ανθρώπων, που ισχυρίζονται ότι είναι Τσάμηδες και ότι υπέστησαν διωγμούς και σφαγές από τους Έλληνες. Οι Έλληνες απαντούν αναρτώντας στο internet τα ονόματα των εκτελεσθέντων συμπατριωτών τους κατά τη διάρκεια της κατοχής, υποστηρίζοντας ότι αυτό έγινε από τους Τσάμηδες συνεργάτες των Γερμανών. Παρουσιάζουν μάλιστα φωτογραφία-ντοκουμέντο με έναν Τσάμη αξιωματικό να φορά τη ναζιστική στολή. Η συζήτηση έγινε για πρώτη φορά στην Ελλάδα, σημειώνουν οι μελετητές του Κέντρου Ερευνών Μειονοτικών Ομάδων, για να προσφέρει υλικό για αυτοκριτική σκέψη. Το ερώτημα όμως που προκύπτει είναι όντως προσέφερε υλικό ή άνοιξε μια ακόμα πληγή στο ματωμένο κορμί της Ηπείρου.



I think i know what the article is about,but im not 100% sure.Im curious to know if this is som kind of new greek position,different from the official one about cameria?

It says KEMO (a Greek pseudo-culturalist fringe group) made a presentation at Pantion University about persecution of Greece's Cham minority numbering 50,000 (genocide is not mentioned) and confiscation of their properties. It also mentions hundreds of Greeks being victims of Chams who collaborated with the Nazis. Apparently some Albanians claiming to be Chams allege that they were persecuted by Greeks, and Greeks respond by giving a list of Greeks killed by Chams and photograph of Cham in Nazi uniform.

Basically the whole thing was KEMO's initiative and their political and intellectual impact is minimal. They are an organization similar to the Greek Helsinki Monitor if this helps you understand the type of organization.

I love how 1 death turns into a genocide :rolleyes:

Right , just one....
And the ones deported that were thousands in Albania and Turkey, their properties and the tumbs of their parents? It seems greeks never made sth bad.

You can see a news clip of this event and includes a bit of the presentation here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjaQNZqeJHU

Right , just one....
And the ones deported that were thousands in Albania and Turkey, their properties and the tumbs of their parents? It seems greeks never made sth bad.

They went to Turkey many years before WW2:dry:

Right , just one....
And the ones deported that were thousands in Albania and Turkey, their properties and the tumbs of their parents? It seems greeks never made sth bad.
OK please define genocide? How does 2800 deaths equal a genocide when their over 4 MILLION Albanians!? Also The number of traitors expelled is in disbute so all those socall Chams may actually be regular Albanians! Also what about the Atrocites committed by those cham on Greeks? Oh wait albanians are such innocent people! Maybe your lies may fool US politicians who are hungry for resources but not me! Those people collaborated with the Germans and commited atrocities against their nieghbors with included sending over 2000 Romaniote Jews to their deaths! Your not getting much sympathy from me!:mad:

Διαβαστε αυτο .Ολοκληρο και στην σελιδα 81 θα δειτε οτι οι Αμερικανοι πραγματοποιουν τα σχεδια των Ναζι για τους Αλβανους.Αυτοι οι μαλακες οι δημοσιογραφοι και οι επιστημονες δεν διαβαζουν τιποτε?

The Nazi Connection to Islamic Terrorism

Των Chuck Morse Εκδόθηκε 2003

ISBN 0595289444

.....that would have created a greaten pan-Muslim state for Albania that was to include Kosovo, western Macedonia .....
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/VariousTemporary/albanians.jpg

-- To 1944 Αλ-χουσεινι έγκρινε ένα σχέδιο που του δόθηκε από τον Ναζί-Μουσουλμάνο αρχηγό των Αλβανών Μπεντρί Πατζανι όπου θα δημιουργούσε ένα Μεγάλο πανισλαμικό κράτος για την Αλβανία που θα συμπεριλάβανε το Κοσσοβο την Δυτική ΦΥΡΟΜ το Βόρειο Μαυροβούνιο κομμάτια της Βοσνίας και την περιοχή Ρασκα της Σερβίας . Καθώς οι Ναζί είχαν υπερεκταθεί και υποχωρούσαν μπροστά στην προέλαση των συμμαχούν απόρριψαν την ιδέα εκείνη την περίοδο και μια άλλη εκδοχή του σχεδίου που ενέκρινε ο Αλ-χουσεινι του Μπεντρί Πατζανι για μια Μεγάλη Αλβανία εχει αναστηθεί σαν παλιό φάντασμα και στοιχειώνει την περιοχή σήμερα.

So olvios what is this greek priest doing?
http://www.forumishqiptar.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=101475&stc=1&d=1204287423

http://www.forumishqiptar.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=101476&stc=1&d=1204287468

Here is Napoleon Zervas with his Nazi "enemies":
http://www.forumishqiptar.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=101477&stc=1&d=1204287508

Its called dosilogos regarding the priest perhaps if he was a traitor or a priest complying due to fear .There are traitors everywhere with no exception.No surprise.The above still stands.

Explain the pics, dates,sources,who took them everything:rolleyes:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/VariousTemporary/z4.jpg

Well those two hats are germans,the ass is Greek.precisely Zervas ass!:)

They went to Turkey many years before WW2:dry:

Who made they go there Olvios? Was so bad to live in Chameria? Or was more beautiful Turkey ?
I wonder, how Greece had entered in EU.

OK please define genocide? How does 2800 deaths equal a genocide when their over 4 MILLION Albanians!? Also The number of traitors expelled is in disbute so all those socall Chams may actually be regular Albanians! Also what about the Atrocites committed by those cham on Greeks? Oh wait albanians are such innocent people! Maybe your lies may fool US politicians who are hungry for resources but not me! Those people collaborated with the Germans and commited atrocities against their nieghbors with included sending over 2000 Romaniote Jews to their deaths! Your not getting much sympathy from me!:mad:

Dont worry, i dont want it.

Well those two hats are germans,the ass is Greek.precisely Zervas ass!:)

Yeah , it's Zerva but may be his ass is not greek (some guys here told me it is a greek ass, they had seen so much).
May be Turks or Chams had kidnap him one time and put him another ass. Anyway, what he did ,was not made with the ass, but wuth a courage that is normal for a good Greek-Christian.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/VariousTemporary/z4.jpg

NO face is visible here:dry:No zervas and you havent given any data on the photos.

Διαβαστε αυτο .Ολοκληρο και στην σελιδα 81 θα δειτε οτι οι Αμερικανοι πραγματοποιουν τα σχεδια των Ναζι για τους Αλβανους.Αυτοι οι μαλακες οι δημοσιογραφοι και οι επιστημονες δεν διαβαζουν τιποτε?

The Nazi Connection to Islamic Terrorism

Των Chuck Morse Εκδόθηκε 2003

ISBN 0595289444

.....that would have created a greaten pan-Muslim state for Albania that was to include Kosovo, western Macedonia .....
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/VariousTemporary/albanians.jpg

-- To 1944 Αλ-χουσεινι έγκρινε ένα σχέδιο που του δόθηκε από τον Ναζί-Μουσουλμάνο αρχηγό των Αλβανών Μπεντρί Πατζανι όπου θα δημιουργούσε ένα Μεγάλο πανισλαμικό κράτος για την Αλβανία που θα συμπεριλάβανε το Κοσσοβο την Δυτική ΦΥΡΟΜ το Βόρειο Μαυροβούνιο κομμάτια της Βοσνίας και την περιοχή Ρασκα της Σερβίας . Καθώς οι Ναζί είχαν υπερεκταθεί και υποχωρούσαν μπροστά στην προέλαση των συμμαχούν απόρριψαν την ιδέα εκείνη την περίοδο και μια άλλη εκδοχή του σχεδίου που ενέκρινε ο Αλ-χουσεινι του Μπεντρί Πατζανι για μια Μεγάλη Αλβανία εχει αναστηθεί σαν παλιό φάντασμα και στοιχειώνει την περιοχή σήμερα.

You were Nazi pigs then and you are now.

Napoleon Zervas, Paulos Melas, Georgios Grivas.
Great heroes which they offered everything to the nation but never saw their work complete.
Hopefully more such great men shall appear so that N Epirus, Upper Macedonia and Cyprus island will suffer no longer and be united again with mother greece

So Paulos you are a hero?

Apo tin Ekpompi “Mixani tou Xronou” gia ton Napoleon Zerva
Einai to apospasma pou anaferete stin periptosi ton Tsamidon
An mporei kapoios na tou balei Ypotitloys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBp5aoE-5MY

Apo tin Ekpompi “Mixani tou Xronou” gia ton Napoleon Zerva
Einai to apospasma pou anaferete stin periptosi ton Tsamidon
An mporei kapoios na tou balei Ypotitloys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBp5aoE-5MY

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBp5aoE-5MY)

Metafrasi mesa sto youtube, kseri kanenas pos ? Yia tous ksenous h tous Alvanous pou den kseroun Ellinika.

So olvios what is this greek priest doing?
http://www.forumishqiptar.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=101475&stc=1&d=1204287423

http://www.forumishqiptar.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=101476&stc=1&d=1204287468

Here is Napoleon Zervas with his Nazi "enemies":
http://www.forumishqiptar.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=101477&stc=1&d=1204287508


Picture 1: Oh, a volunteer, about to enlist in the Wermacht? What are you suggesting? Where and when was this picture taken? As far as anyone can tell, this picture shows an orthodox priest among civilians with two soldiers, possibly Germans writing something down. Maybe a wedding? Is the priest swatting at a fly, about to slap the German, swearing he is an honest man? It is certainly no Nazi salute, if that is what you are suggesting.

Picture 2: Another orthodox priest among people in their Sunday best (and this was in an occupied land) being saluted by a German officer. Probably during a Sunday mass I should think, maybe a wedding or some other ceremony. What is the problem? Not in Epirus I should think, as it was occupied I believe by the Italians. What is the relevance with Epirus? Explain.

Picture 3: Some armed rebels from the Bundesarchiv (postwar). Possibly Greek. At the far end there is an unarmed man apparently wearing a German officer's hat. He is sitting down and nobody is paying much attention to him. What is going on, I ask you? German prisoner? A negotiation? A guy with a hat?

Compare with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg _(1st_Albanian)

Not only the Albanians but the Italians and Germans had also left Greece by 1944. And for a good reason.

Oh thanks that wiki link just enlightened me.:huh:...it was "full" of interesting stuff.

TirAlb if happen genocide do you know the number of the victims ?
Is there any international organization that confirm the "genocide" of the Chams ?

If (reliable) independent academics certify that a genocide happened to the Chams, I have no problem with the idea; I don't deny reality (like the Turkish government does). Do such academics exist though? What are their views on the Greeks expelled from Turkey, the Germans expelled from Czechoslovakia and Poland, etc? How about the (past and future) fate of the Serbs in Kosovo?

Also, if a genocide did happen, it is not the responsibility of the Greek government. It was perpetrated by EDES, a rebel group akin to the UCK (except EDES was fighting an illegal occupation and not against lawful sovereignty).

Akritas probably you are right,its true no evidences no crime,and those chams in Albania and their testimonys are not enough because its only their word against Greek word.And theres one last detail,all that happend on greek soil,a little bit hard to investigate without your permisson.
However im not here to prove anything i don't have to and im not able,i know what happend there and why,and you know as well,thats important.There are people denying the Holocaust around,so im not that naive to think that Greece its not able to hide and distort a such small eveniment in comparision to all that giant thing called WW2.

Oh thanks that wiki link just enlightened me.:huh:...it was "full" of interesting stuff.

Where do you guys come from? How educated were your schoolteachers? Why can you not have the decency to be in peace with your neighbours. The information you want is here, if you are looking for public embarassment.

"The 21st SS Division Skanderbeg was a Waffen SS Mountain division set up by Heinrich Himmler in March 1944, officially under the title of the 21st Waffen-Gebirgs Division der SS Skanderbeg (Albanische Nr. 1). It was named after George Kastrioti Skanderbeg, the national hero of Albanians who resisted Ottoman invasion for 25 years, and united Albanian princes under one national banner. The division was set up mostly from 4,000 prisoners of Albanian nationality. After the wars end, the division was accused of having committed thousands of war crimes, mostly against Serbs in Montenegro and Kosovo."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg _%281st_Albanian%29

I don't know what prisoners were these, as the Albanians were on the same side as the Italians and the Germans.

TirAlb for the holocaust and the great calamity there is undeniable evidence.
If there was such a thing as cham genocide it would have been recorded at some oficial files like the one of foreign office.
But none exist. So it is not about the albanian against the greek word. It is simply a proposition with no supporting evidence thus the claims about the chams are simply forgery. Otherwise please bring fourth some concrete evidence and we can discuss further.
For the time being people look at chams and see the men of Balli Kombetar who sent thousands of Greek jews to Auschwitz and Birkenau. If there is justice to be done then Albania must pay its part for its noted attrocities against the greek christian and greek jewish polulations in greece.
Chams might be predominalty Muslim but they weared the svastika cross with great pride and have commited a massive number of attrocities against the greeks and particularly the greek jewish.
So instead of crying out about a fake genocide it would be better to accept your shame and pay tribute to the victims of your attrocities.

We have all heard Albanian nationalist rhetoric regarding "Çamëria" and how it should go independent or unite with a "Greater Albania". I'm confused though, it's a fact that there is minimal Albanian presence there (either national or linguistic) and that it cannot be the object of proper irredentism like Kosovo or west FYROM. What do Albanians want?

they have rights to nothing!!! Albanians from that region betrayed us to the Nazis in hopes of uniting that region with ALbania!! Also they are responsible for detportation of over 2000 Romaniote Jews to their deaths! They got what they deserved!!!

Im so sorry for those jews,fortunately they were safe in other parts of Greece,weren't they?

The cham genocide started in 1913 dear paulos,and was ended in 1945 by the nazi collaborator N.Zervas.

they have rights to nothing!!! Albanians from that region betrayed us to the Nazis in hopes of uniting that region with ALbania!! Also they are responsible for detportation of over 2000 Romaniote Jews to their deaths! They got what they deserved!!!
I doubt all Cham Albanians were involved, but when it comes to war justice, collective responsibility is usually and unfortunately ascribed. Same happened with the Germans of Czechoslovakia and Poland, I doubt all collaborated with the Nazis but they were treated as though they had.
Im so sorry for those jews,fortunately they were safe in other parts of Greece,weren't they?
About 10,000 were left by the time the war was over. They're about 5,000 today due to immigration to Israel.

TirAlb, what do Cham Albanians want from Greece, I'm genuinely curious? The claims are often conflicting. Do they want the whole region to be annexed to Albania or something else?

The cham genocide started in 1913 dear paulos,and was ended in 1945 by the nazi collaborator N.Zervas.
Massacres by EDES started in 1913? Cool! :rolleyes:

The cham genocide started in 1913 dear paulos,and was ended in 1945 by the nazi collaborator N.Zervas.
...Zervas nazi collaborator ?
any source for that ? :)

....and you still to speak for genocide without document in proof.

I doubt all Cham Albanians were involved, but when it comes to war justice, collective responsibility is usually and unfortunately ascribed. Same happened with the Germans of Czechoslovakia and Poland, I doubt all collaborated with the Nazis but they were treated as though they had.

About 10,000 were left by the time the war was over. They're about 5,000 today due to immigration to Israel.

TirAlb, what do Cham Albanians want from Greece, I'm genuinely curious? The claims are often conflicting. Do they want the whole region to be annexed to Albania or something else?

You punished entire familys,almost all villagers how did they collaborate with germans?Of course they didn't and thats why blaming an entire population,was just an excuse.Come on Draco its so obvious.
They want theyr proprieties,confiscated by the greek state,back.Or at least an indemnity.

You punished entire familys,almost all villagers how did they collaborate with germans?Of course they didn't and thats why blaming an entire population,was just an excuse.Come on Draco its so obvious.
They want theyr proprieties,confiscated by the greek state,back.Or at least an indemnity.
It's not that simple TirAlb, Germany and Poland are having the same dispute. Expelled Germans claiming compensation from Poland and Poland counterclaiming for Nazi atrocities during WWII. If Germany ever wins, it'll be a useful precedent for the Chams; until then though...

.
They want theyr proprieties,confiscated by the greek state,back.Or at least an indemnity.


The chams are the ones that have to apologise and compensate Greece.

German Nazi's killed Jews.Germans military and civilans were killed .Jews were compensated and received apologies from Germans.

Albanian Chams Nazi's Killed Greeks.Albanian Cham military and civilians were killed .Greeks must be compensated and receive apologies from Chams and the Albanian nation as a whole.

Case closed.

Also note that in now way will Nazi collaborators will receive apologies.

The Cham Issue – Where to Now? - Miranda Vickers (www.da.mod.uk/colleges/csrc/document-listings/balkan/07(01)MV.pdf)

The Cham Issue- Where to now"?
Mirana Vickers

Key Points

The ethnic Albanian Chams north western Greece are escalating their campaign for the restitution of their property and citizenship rights in Greece. Recently there have been some significant political and cultural initiatives to raise awareness of the Cham issue. These include the formation of a new political party, the Party for Justice and Integration (PJI), and moves to internationalise the Cham case in the European Parliament in Strasbourg.

The Greek government refuses to discuss the matter publicly, claiming that the Cham issue does not exist. The Albanian government, however, cannot ignore the problem due
growing pressure from Cham organisations and sympathisers within the main Albanian political parties. Following last summer's large demonstration on the Greek border, which received widespread publicity, the Chams are co-ordinating and intensifying their activities with increasing support from the large Cham diaspora. Such actions have caused tensions between Athens and Tirana.

The Chams will soon have exhausted all channels to find a peaceful solution to their demands. Dialogue between Tirana, Athens, Cham representatives and international mediators to resolve the issue is urgently needed in order to avoid further straining relations between Albania and Greece, and risking the issue being hijacked by radicals.


Introduction


The issue of the property rights of the predominantly ethnic Albanians (known as Chams), who were forcibly displaced from their homes in north-western Greece during World War II, has remained unresolved for over 60 years, and has the growing potential to become a major bone of contention between Albania and Greece – two otherwise friendly neighbours.1 Although the majority of Albanian Chams fled Greece during the Second World War, other displacements occurred during the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913, and during the dictatorship of General Metaxas in the 1930s when many Chams were violently driven from their homes.
Today there are approximately 250,000 Chams in Albania and an estimated 400,000 in the wider diaspora, mostly in the USA and Turkey. Despite being granted Albanian citizenship in 1953, many Chams still regard themselves as refugees deprived of their Greek citizenship and the right to return to their property in Greece. The Chams are campaigning for the Greek government to acknowledge the violence perpetrated against them, and for the return of their confiscated properties together with compensation for their use since their expulsion. They also want their Greek citizenship restored. Cham-owned properties in Greece are assessed at around US$2.8billion and include vineyards, forestry and grazing land, domestic and commercial property.2
In the spring of 2002 a report published by the Conflict Studies Research Centre discussed the historical background to the claims made by the Cham people regarding their property and citizenship rights in Greece.3 The report discussed the historical background to the Cham issue and attempts during the 1990s to internationalise the problem. Although this report initially generated a heated debate on the Cham issue amongst Albania’s political class, little has been done since to address the matter. Over the past few years, the various Cham organisations and diaspora groups have gone to considerable lengths to get the Albanian and Greek governments to make a serious commitment to addressing their grievances, and to inform the international community of their wishes and objectives. Yet, although politicians from all Albania’s main political parties have made numerous statements regarding the Cham issue, and have proposed several parliamentary resolutions, nothing tangible has resulted from these gestures and debates. Meanwhile, the Greek government consistently claims that the Cham issue does not exist and refuses to enter into a dialogue with Cham representatives. As a result, the Chams have taken their case to the European Parliament in Strasbourg.
The Cham issue is very much interlinked with that of the Greek minority in Albania and the large non-Cham Albanian population living in Greece. Although relations between Greece and Albania are good, they have been strained several times in recent years over the treatment of ethnic minorities and employment issues facing the several hundred thousand Albanian immigrants in Greece.
The last two years have witnessed a growing confidence and political sophistication amongst the Chams, which has recently expressed itself in the formation of a new cultural organisation, and a political party that wielded significant influence in the 2005 parliamentary elections. This paper outlines recent developments in the Cham issue, as efforts to internationalise the Chams’ demands gathers momentum.4

Background

The Chams have a strong sense of tradition, identity and community which has united them over the past 62 years since their expulsion from Greece as suspected Nazi collaborators.5 This is in part due to the violence they suffered historically, but also to a collective prejudice against them on both sides of the border. Many Chams were persecuted by the Albanian Communist regime, which like the Greeks, believed that they had collaborated with the Italians and Germans during the Second World War Whereas in Albania and the diaspora Cham communities have managed to preserve their dialect, traditions and folk songs, in Greece itself those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in Greece, have suffered from assimilation and the public suppression of their Albanian heritage and language. As a result, Albanian is only spoken privately in the home.
The mountain Chams were largely Orthodox Christians and the coastal and lowland Chams were mostly Muslim. By classifying the coastal Chams as "Turks" rather than Albanians, Greek historians have been able to justify the earlier confiscation of Cham-owned land, much of which was given to Greek refugees from Turkey during the population exchanges in 1923.6 Following their expulsion from Greece, most of the poorer Chams went to Albania, whilst the wealthier ones went to America and Turkey. Nevertheless, today the Chams are amongst the richest and most successful entrepreneurs in contemporary Albania.
Anyone now visiting north western Greece will notice the ever encroaching wilderness that has enveloped many villages once occupied by Chams. Cham domestic and administrative buildings, mosques and cultural monuments are slowly disappearing under overgrown vegetation. Land once used by Chams to graze their huge flocks is now reverting to forest due to the cycle of depopulation that has historically characterised this corner of south-eastern Europe. Thus the geographical and architectural legacy of Cham occupation in north western Greece is gradually vanishing.7 For those Chams living close to the Greek border it is especially frustrating being technically so close but politically so far from their ancient homeland. There are roughly 14,000 Chams or their descendants living in the southern Albanian town of Saranda and the villages north of the Albanian-Greek border. Many originally came from the Epirot coastal town of Sivota and the surrounding region, and none has ever been allowed a visa to go back to see their properties or the graves of their families.
Recently, however, a few intrepid Chams have managed to find their way back to their family’s old homes, even trying to rebuild them. The Greek Foreign Office believes that some local Greek police are in the pay of Albanians and are thus turning a blind eye as a few Chams quietly re-establish themselves in long-abandoned property. At the same time, several hundred ethnic Greek minority families from Albania have settled in Epirot towns such as Filiates.8 This will have a long term political effect because it is gradually changing the demographic balance in the region, which could lead to social and economic tensions developing.

In March 2004, the Institute of Cham Studies (ICS) was established with a board of 7 members. The Institute’s primary aim is to attempt to “fill the huge gap in knowledge about the entire Cham issue”.10 One of the first actions taken by the board of the ICS was to hold the first ever Cham Conference in Tirana in May 2004. This event was attended by Cham and other scholars, politicians and writers from both Albania and abroad, and was widely publicised in the media.11 Meanwhile the Tirana-based Chameria Association is attempting to collect and record personal testimonies and accounts from Chams who left Greece in 1944-45 and are now living in Albania – personal archives, documents and other data - in a bid to preserve the historical memories that the older generation carry with them.

Political Developments

Following the heated debates amongst Albanian politicians generated by the Conflict Studies Research Centre’s report on the Cham issue in April 2002, there was an assumption that the report’s conclusions would be acted upon and moves would begin to resolve the issue. Things looked promising when in May 2003 the then Prime Minister Fatos Nano declared in Parliament that he had reached an agreement with his Greek counterpart Costas Simitis on the establishment of a bipartisan working group to study the legal issues that would lead towards a final solution of the Cham issue. However, by September nothing more had been heard on the subject. This prompted a group of deputies from the National Front and Legality parties to draft a resolution on the Cham issue which was signed by over 40 other opposition MPs and lawyers.
The resolution expressed concern over the lack of commitment shown by both the Albanian and Greek governments in addressing the question of the property rights of the Cham people. It also stated that the government must ask for the abrogation of the War Law, the recognition of the properties of the Cham population, financial compensation for the loss of those properties, as well as freezing the law no 2664 (1998) regarding the registration of the Cham properties and their compensation. Initially, all political groups in the Albanian parliament declared that they would support the text and approve it on the basis of a consensus. However, after months of debate, with approval of the resolution being put off from one parliamentary session to another, the Parliamentary Foreign Affairs Committee finally achieved a consensus and approved the Cham resolution, only to have it postponed yet again by parliament during the plenary session on 1 April 2004.
The resolution was sent back to the Foreign Affairs Committee to make corrections and improvements that were deemed necessary by the government. When informing shocked MPs of this decision, the Speaker of Parliament, Servet Pellumbi, said that it was necessary to alter some of the wording and phraseology of the text in order to assist Parliament in approving a more mature resolution. The opposition was furious at the government for not only continuously postponing approval of the resolution, but also drastically altering the text in order to appease the Greeks. Several fundamental points had been left out of the amended version, which included the abrogation of the War Law and the compensation that should be paid by the Greek authorities to the Cham people for the loss of their properties.
Albanian politicians were divided in their views on the reasons why the draft resolution needed to be so drastically amended. The opposition argued that the government was resisting approval of, and softening the demands of the resolution for fear that it would create tension in relations with Greece.
The Socialists, on the other hand, argued that their abstention that led to the rejection of the document was due to their fears about a new “broom” being used against Albanian emigrants in Greece, and subsequent fears for the economy should thousands of Albanians be sent back over the border if the Assembly were to approve the draft.13 Socialist Party deputy Spartak Braho said: “The main reason is that we cannot set the just demands of the Cham community against the primary interests of 600,000 Albanians in Greece.”14
This argument might have carried some weight several years before. In the spring of 2004, however, the position of Albanians living in Greece could not have appeared more secure due to the demand for Albanian workers to complete an enormous number of construction projects for the Olympic Games, which were to be held in Athens that summer. In fact this was the precise moment that the Albanian government could have exerted its greatest pressure on Athens to get some form of commitment to resolve the Cham issue. As one cynical Socialist MP, Sabit Brokaj, noted: “The rope that the Greeks keep around the neck of some Albanian politicians in relation to Albanian emigrants in Greece, is only a game of pressure. Only those Albanian politicians who are connected with the Greek monopolies, are involved in the informal economy, or have illegal revenues, bow to this pressure.”15
The very narrow defeat of the Cham motion in Parliament was almost certainly due to the pro-Greek wing in the Socialist Party, which backed away from the consensus achieved by the Parliamentary Foreign Affairs Committee due to pressure being exerted by Greek diplomatic circles. There had been pressure on MPs to vote against the resolution, such as the chairman of the Union for Human Rights Party, Vangjel Dule, who demanded that MPs did not approve the draft as it could be a detrimental move for Albanian foreign policy.16 According to Dule: “This resolution comes at a time when the Balkan region is witnessing intensive events and a period of fragile balances, and the approval of such a resolution would damage those balances that could result in a high political cost for Albania’s foreign policy.”17
According to reports, the unexpected postponement of the draft resolution was seemingly the result of a confidential meeting between the then Greek Ambassador to Tirana, Pantelis Carcabassis, and officials from the Albanian Foreign Ministry. The Greek representative argued that “Greece considered approval of this resolution a non-friendly act by Albania.”18 There were also many accusations of Greek efforts to make sure the Albanian government kept silent on the Cham issue, which as one observer noted: “they do on the quiet by sponsoring the Albanian media, by buying journalists through free trips and other privileges, and through publicity campaigns, or by bribing Albanian politicians through enabling them to spend their time in Greek taverns”.19
The rejection of the draft resolution was a bitter blow to the Chams, who again took to the streets to demonstrate against the decision. On 15 March hundreds of Chams had waved placards baring the slogans “Chameria is ours” and “Return our properties” in front of the Parliament building demanding approval of the resolution.
Although the resolution had failed to be approved, it did succeed in highlighting the emotive, politically divisive and damaging nature of the Cham issue. Given the media allegations of Greek interference and bribery of Socialist MPs, it was clear that some form of damage limitation was urgently needed. Thus it was announced that official discussions on the Cham issue were to be convened. At a meeting in May 2004, the then Prime Ministers of Albania and Greece, Fatos Nano and Costas Karamanlis, agreed to start bilateral negotiations to find a “legal and fair solution to the question of Cham properties in Greece, and Greek assets in Albania”. Albania’s President, Alfred Moisiu, was clearly concerned at the damaging publicity regarding Greece’s “sponsorship” of certain government officials. He was also genuinely interested in the plight of the Chams and the need for an urgent resolution to the issue. In an interview, he explained that: “Past problems between Greece and Albania relating to the Chams, their property rights, the War Law and the Greek minority, did not affect actual day to day relations between the two countries, but nevertheless, these problems need to be urgently solved." 20
The fact that the Albanian parliament had even considered passing a resolution requiring action to be taken on the Cham issue, and the sight of hundreds of angry Cham demonstrators was enough to galvanise Greece into defensive mode. The country embarked upon a series of military and diplomatic initiatives, which suggested a fear of Pan-Albanian expansion towards north-western Greece. Serbian and Macedonian media reports were claiming that new Pan-Albanian organisations were planning to expand their operations into north-western Greece to include Chameria in their plans for the unification of “all Albanian territories.”21 Meanwhile, international observers were concerned that Kosovo politicians might start speculating with the Cham issue.
In September 2004 the Greek authorities announced the reinforcement of northern military areas near the borders with Albania and Macedonia. New infantry forces from eastern areas of the country were transferred close to the Greek border with Albania, and a unit of Patriot missiles was moved from Athens to a military air base near Thessaloniki, along with a new air force unit. These were permanent deployments that gave the distinct impression that Greece felt a possible threat from her northern borders, as opposed to the traditional threat from Turkey to the east. This fortress-like mentality was further enhanced by a giant ring of barbed wire reinforced with metal spikes, erected at the main southern border crossing at Kakavia.
Despite the Cham-induced controversy, during a visit to Albania in mid-October 2004, Greek President Konstantinos Stephanopoulos stated at a news conference that the Cham issue did not exist for Greece and that claims for the restoration of property presented by both the Cham people and the Greek minority in Albania belonged to a past historical period which he considered closed. "I don't know if it is necessary to find a solution to the Cham issue, as in my opinion it does not need to be solved,” he said. “There have been claims from both sides, but we should not return to these matters. The question of the Cham properties does not exist," he told reporters.22 When speaking of claims from both sides, Stephanopolous was referring to the Greek claims on Vorio Epirus (Northern Epirus), which include a considerable part of southern Albania. The key difference, however, is that unlike Albania’s ethnic Greek minority, who are allowed to own their own properties and have Albanian citizenship, the Chams are forbidden to return to their homes and are denied Greek citizenship. With the implementation of the property law adopted in 1992, Albania did not exclude the ethnic Greek minority from the right to own property.23
During Stephanopoulos’s visit, the Chameria Association was refused permission by police to hold a protest demonstration. Members of the Association explained that the Chams wanted to protest peacefully to show that they would not keep silent about their properties, and would continue to demonstrate until their legal position was restored and they were given back their assets. "We will never keep silent about our property, many of us have the land patents that prove our claims. They are our lands whether the Greeks like it or not," they explained.
By the beginning of 2005, the Chams had become disillusioned with both majorpolitical parties’ hollow and superficial gestures towards addressing their cause. They therefore decided to create their own political party – the Party for Justice and Integration (PJI) – to represent the Chams in the forthcoming parliamentary elections. The party declares in its statute that it belongs to the centre right, which is the political homeland for the vast majority of Chams marginalised by the Communist regime. Since the demise of the one-party state, the Chams have consistently put their faith in the centre right parties to pursue their rights with Greece. However, the Chams are fully aware that Tirana’s politicians, whether Democrats or Socialists, only really focus on the Cham question during election time. Back in 1995, with an eye on the following year’s parliamentary elections, the then Democratic Party government created a day of official remembrance on the anniversary of the massacre of Cham civilians at Paramithia on 25/7 June 1944, and also erected a monument to the Chams in the southern town of Konispol. In the run up to the local elections in October 2003 a street in central Tirana was renamed Chameria Street. These symbolic gestures were never followed up with any political initiatives.
During the June 2005 parliamentary elections, the Chams were scathing about Fatos Nano’s attempts to woo them in Saranda. “He wanted to meet us because he wanted us to vote for him. He promised us jobs and good positions but he was not sincere about our problems,” they said.25 During the elections the support of the Chams helped re-elect Sali Berisha and the Democratic Party to power.26 The largest demonstration during the election campaign was organised by the Vlora Chams, 90% of whom voted for the Democratic Party. There are 10,500 Chams in Vlora, the majority originating from the coast of Epirus. They had a very difficult time under communism because Enver Hoxha believed they had collaborated with the occupying forces during World War II. Due to their geographical proximity to Italy and the sensitivity of the Vlora coastal region, there was more pressure on the Vlora Chams under Communism, and consequently the most radical Chams in Albania are from Vlora.
There were now three centres of Cham activity: the political party – the PJI, the Cultural Institute of Chameria and the Chameria Association. Working closely together, these three groups were able to push forward the Cham agenda in the run up to the elections. Despite the PJI not being linked to a coalition of other parties, it succeeded in gaining tens of thousands of votes in the 2005 parliamentary elections, and was able to send an MP to parliament.
The month of November 2005 proved to be highly contentious as the deadline set by the Greek government for the Chams to officially register their property in Greece finally arrived. The law on property, which was passed and decreed by former Greek President Stefanopoulos, states that all unregistered Albanian-owned properties in Greece would be nationalised. The Act No 2664 “on Greek cadastral and other regulations”, passed on 27 November 1998 by the Greek parliament, set 27 November 2005 as the final deadline for registering estate properties. Under the controversial War Law the property of the Chams is considered as property belonging to the “enemy” because of the Chams’ alleged collaboration during the Second World War.
Despite being granted Albanian citizenship in 1953, the Chams still regard themselves as Greek as well as Albanian citizens, and therefore the legal owners of their properties in Greece. A lot of Chams have their property documentation, but the majority have not. Although November was the cut off date for the registration, almost no Chams could go to register their property because they were not allowed visas to enter Greece. The Greek government was aware that the Chams could not register their property, as they would have to travel to Ioannina to get copies of their missing documents, which they could not do without visas to enter Greece.
As tensions rose with the approach of the registration deadline, Greek President Karolos Papoulias chose this inauspicious time to pay a visit to Albania. He was scheduled to meet for talks with Albania’s President Alfred Moisiu in the southern town of Saranda. At the beginning of November, however, Papoulias suddenly cancelled his meeting with Moisiu because of a demonstration by a group of around 200 Chams. Papoulias was in the nearby city of Gjirokaster when the decision was announced. A Greek Foreign Ministry statement said that the meeting was cancelled because “the Albanian authorities had not taken adequate measures to protect President Papoulias by deterring known extremist elements, who are trying to hinder the smooth development of Greek-Albanian relations and present unacceptable, non-existent issues at a time when Albania is taking steps towards fulfilling its European ambitions”. This was followed by a strongly-worded note of protest to the Albanian authorities delivered by the Greek Embassy in Tirana.
The annulment was an acute and humiliating snub to President Moisiu, who had initiated the visit. A spokesperson for the president said: “The President of the Republic expresses deep sorrow at this hurried and unexplainable decision by the Greek side which was based upon misinformation, regardless of the assurances from the Albanian side that this was a small, peaceful and well monitored demonstration.”27 The cancellation of the proposed talks between the two presidents was an over-reaction by the Greek authorities, as well as implied blackmail by inferring that “Albania’s European ambitions” would in some way be damaged by the country encouraging extremist activity. Ever since Albania began negotiations to join the European Union, Greece, as the only regional EU member, has played the EU card to instil a sense of insecurity into Albania’s political class, many of whom believe that if they step out of line, Greece will hamper Albania’s EU aspirations. This is despite the fact that the minority rights orientation of modern Greece is currently incompatible with European and international law – a fact that needs to be examined by the EU Parliament.
The Greek decision was widely condemned by Chams and non-Cham Albanians alike, and unnecessarily damaged Greek-Albanian relations. The inability of the Chams to register their properties in Greece, and the manner in which Papoulias’ visit was cancelled, infuriated the Chams. Representatives of the Chameria Association said the small protest was aimed at increasing awareness of the Cham issue. “It is better we demonstrate peacefully in a democratic manner, than take up arms to publicise our demands.”28
The beginning of 2006 saw the Chams with a heightened sense of frustration, and a renewed determination to internationalise their plight. On 8 February the Greek General Prosecution announced its decision to sell all unregistered property and land in Epirus, including Cham-owned land that was sequestrated in 1945. According to the court the owners have not registered any interest in the land for over 20 years. The Chams considered the Greek decision as “open provocation” and called for an immediate response from the Albanian government and international institutions. No response was forthcoming.
In June around ten thousand Chams marched to the Greek border at Qafa e Bota to mark the anniversary of the massacre of Cham civilians which occurred on 27 June 1944 in the Epiriot town of Paramithia. The event gained wide publicity within Albania and even the Greek media ventured up to the wilderness of this remote border crossing. Although the Chams commemorate this event every year, this protest was by far the biggest political action taken by the Chams in the 62 years since they were driven from Greece. It was the first time in as many years that so many Cham people, of all ages and social classes, came together from every district of Albania. These were not “extremists” but ordinary people, taxi drivers, lawyers, shopkeepers, who regard themselves as Greek (and Albanian) citizens and wished to let the world know their desire for “a peaceful return to their homeland and to the graves of their forefathers”.
The demonstration was well coordinated, which represented a new level of cooperation amongst the various Cham regional groups. However, the protest was noticeably ignored in Albania by the ruling Democratic Party and the Socialist-led opposition. According to one observer, the demonstration actually contributed to the Albanian government’s negotiating power with Greece because in the light of recent events it could legitimately claim that it was obliged to raise the Cham question because of such strong pressure from the Cham community. The June protest also strengthened the position of the Albanian government because it provided additional arguments in the controversy over the graves of Greek soldiers on Albanian territory, with the Greek side asking to build several cemeteries for its soldiers killed in Albania, yet not allowing the Chams to pay homage at the graves of their forefathers in Greece.30
Other initiatives followed, including sending letters outlining the Cham case to every major diplomatic mission in Tirana, and in May the PJI sent a memorandum to Prime Minister Sali Berisha and former Greek foreign minister Theodoros Pangalos, calling for their support for the rights of the Cham population.31 To date there has been no response from any foreign mission or from Dr. Berisha himself. With increasing frustration, the Cham leadership decided to take their case directly to Europe.
At the end of October, several members of the PJI went to the European Parliament in Strasbourg - the first direct presentation of their case to European parliamentarians. The PJI delegates stressed that they were visiting independently from the Permanent Albanian Delegation in Strasbourg. They had a successful meeting with Mrs Doris Pack, Chairperson of the European Parliamentary Delegation for South-Eastern Europe, who was presented with a dossier about the historical and political dimensions of the Cham issue, as well as proposals for non-violent and democratic solutions to the problem. Mrs Pack had an in-depth discussion with PJI Chairman Tahir Muhedini, during which she promised to investigate the possibility for the Chams to visit their homeland and their family graves in Greece. Mrs Pack also promised that the Cham issue would be discussed at the 13th round of the parliamentary session on Albania’s Association and Stabilisation Agreement with the European Parliament, and in particular she would discuss the matter with Greek Euro Deputies in the Parliament. The PJI delegates also met representatives of various European political parties, who promised to look at the possibility of proposing a Parliamentary Resolution which would seek to open a dialogue between Athens and Tirana, together with the participation of representatives of the Cham population in the presence of international mediators. It remains to be seen what comes from the visit to Strasbourg, but whatever the outcome this marked the first stage in the internationalisation of the Cham issue.
In a provocative move on 7 November 2006, the Greek government announced that it intended to grant dual citizenship to the ethnic Greek minority in Albania. Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis said the move was in response to long standing demands by members of the minority. She also pointed out that the Albanian constitution now guarantees its citizens the right to hold dual nationality as part of steps taken to harmonise its legal framework within European requirements and to fulfil EU criteria.32 Yet again the Greek authorities were playing the EU card. The following day, Albanian Prime Minister Sali Berisha indicated that Albania would accept Greece’s decision. Some 20,000 members of Albania’s ethnic Greek minority are expected to be issued with Greek passports. The Chams responded to this announcement with a declaration of support for the notion, but also a call for Athens to return Greek citizenship to the Cham people. Tahir Muhedini called upon the Albanian and Greek governments to support the Chams’ claims for Greek citizenship. He said that it would have been better if Greece had begun by giving passports to the Chams, and added that “Tirana and Athens still had time to react positively towards the Cham question”.33 An ominous warning perhaps that time was running out in efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Cham issue.
The Greek Response
The Greek authorities appear extremely reluctant to engage in any dialogue on the Cham issue. Aside from a minority of Greek academics, diplomats and human rights activists, most of the Greek population supports the authorities’ view that such a topic does not exist.34 This is clearly a case of missed opportunities. With the collapse of the Berisha government in 1997, Greece was in a unique position in its relations with the new Socialist-led government in Tirana, which started off on such a high note after the Socialist Party’s victory in the 1997 elections. By constantly refusing to address the subject, the Greek authorities cannot find a unified response to the Cham issue, and remain divided as to how best to respond to what they consider the growing threat from their northern border. There are strong divisions in Greece between the Foreign Ministry, which knows it has to deal eventually with the issue, and the Ministry of Defence, which will not agree even to discuss the matter. Given the continued official pronouncements that “there is no Cham issue”; the Greek authorities appear to be burying their heads in the sand. As the June march to the border and the PJI visit to Strasbourg indicate, the Chams are becoming ever more unified and persistent in their quest.
Some Chams believe the Greek government is prolonging the delay in officially addressing the Cham issue in the hope that more of the original eyewitnesses to the atrocities that occurred in Chameria would die, and thus weaken the Chams’ case. For example, one alleged such massacre of Cham people by the Greek government in the summer of 1953, which included the killing of women and children buried in a mass grave in Filiates/Filat, was witnessed by several Chams.35
There is, nevertheless, a rational face to Greece, which acknowledges the massacres and large-scale displacement of the Albanian Chams, but argues that “in the chaos of war it wasn’t really our fault”.36 Indeed,
“In the event of the Cham controversy developing internationally, there is likely to be some discussion of the British role in the events, as it is generally believed that the EDES royalist militia leader Col. Napoleon Zervas was acting on the orders of a member of the British mission (C. M. Woodhouse) in moving against the Chams in 1943-44. Woodhouse has defended his decisions by claiming that the interethnic conflict in Epirus, and also fighting between different wings of the Greek anti-Axis movement, meant that two divisions of the communist-controlled ELAS popular army were tied up in Epirus and this helped save the British force under General Scobie from defeat in the Battle of Athens in 1944.”37
To be fair to ordinary Greek people, it is quite understandable why they have little sympathy or any accurate knowledge of the Cham issue. They have been taught a very simplistic historiography of the Epirus region – “those Albanians who left the coast and lowland areas of Epirus were really Turks, whereas those that remained in the hills were Christian, i.e. good, Albanians who were allowed to stay, and as the Muslim landowning ‘Turks’ left the Greeks were only getting their land back”.38 There is also a genuine, if wholly irrational, fear amongst many older Greeks that to bring back the Albanian Chams is tantamount to asking the Turks to return. However understandable is this lack of accurate historical knowledge and fear of the returning Turk, there is also unfortunately a strongly nationalist element within Greece, spearheaded by the Greek Orthodox Church, which claims to own huge tracts of land within Albania. The Greek hard right and many people within the Orthodox world in Greece still harbour territorial designs on the ‘minority’ areas around Saranda, the coast north to Vlora and inland to Gjirokaster and Korca. For their part Albanians have never been taught about the terrible suffering of the Greek people during World War II, and the subsequent bloody Greek Civil War (1944-1949). It is clear that old prejudices need to be dispelled, and regional histories need to be re-evaluated and in most cases re-written.

The War Law

A significant problem that continues to hinder efforts to find an acceptable solution to the Cham question is that technically a state of war still exists between Greece and Albania. The so-called Law of War was adopted in 1940 by Greece when the country was invaded by Italian troops through Albania. Although this law was repealed by the Greek government in 1987, the decision has never been ratified by Greece’s parliament. Nevertheless, Greece argues that a state of war cannot be said to exist because it was lifted automatically in accordance with international law in 1987. The Chams argue that since their property was seized as a part of this controversial law, it is not enough for the Greek authorities to declare the law invalid - it should be abolished by Parliament.
The Law of War between Albania and Greece remains an obstacle to relations between the two Balkan countries, and is inextricably linked to resolving the Cham issue.39 For a number of years now the Albanians have been pressing Athens to address this matter but to no avail. On 1 April 2003, the Albanian Democratic Party (DP), then in opposition, urged the Greek parliament to abrogate the War Law. Speaking at a news conference the DP secretary for foreign affairs, Besnik Mustafaj, said the Greek parliament had the power to abrogate the War Law with Albania. The following day, however, Greek Premier, Costas Simitis, told Prime Minister Fatos Nano that the War Law did not exist. That is as far as Greece appears prepared to publicly discuss the matter.
Despite containing numerous references to the Greek minority in Albania, the Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation between Greece and Albania, signed on 21 March 1996 by the then Albanian Foreign Minister, Alfred Serreqi, and his Greek counterpart, Theodoros Pangalos, contains nothing about the State of War or the Cham issue. Clause 20 states that the Agreement shall remain valid for a period of 20 years. Therefore there are still 10 years to go before the Agreement needs to be reassessed, unless the issue is forced by either government. The Greek parliament has neither agreed to examine nor to abrogate the War Law, arguing that the existence of the Friendship Treaty between the two countries automatically abolishes it. A document dated 19 March 2004 on the official website of the Greek Foreign Ministry stated that the law that put the two countries at a “state of war” had been abrogated. “The Hellenic Republic, by a governmental decision of 28 August 1987, decided to abrogate the ‘state of war’ with Albania. The signing of the Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Security by the foreign ministers of the two countries on 21 March, 1996 in Tirana, is considered an important basis upon which Albania and Greece have strengthened their bilateral relations and have turned the pages of the past.” According to the document, the treaty has been ratified by the two parliaments.
In May 1999, however, an Albanian lawyer, Mr Agim Tartari, wrote to a Greek colleague in a Thessaloniki law firm, Mr Constantine Hadjiyannakis, requesting information on the state of the Law of War between Greece and Albania. Having consulted the Ministry of External Affairs in Athens, the Greek lawyers confirmed that law no.2636/1940 and law no.4506/1966 is still in force. “The most recent International Treaties and the Treaty of Friendship, Collaboration and Security signed between the Republic of Albania and the Greek Republic in March 1996 have not affected the situation.”40
In an interview in March 2004, former Foreign Minister Arta Dade confirmed that the Albanian government had asked the Greek government to fully abrogate the War Law as the primary step towards a solution to the Cham problem. According to Ms Dade, “frequent discussions took place on the War Law, but when the Albanian side demanded the Law’s abrogation at the time when I was Foreign Minister, the Greek government said that the interpretation made to the law in question was irrelevant”.41 This is obviously a very complex and ambiguous subject that needs to be conclusively settled, not only to assist in solving the Cham issue, but also in the interests of Albanian-Greek relations and Albania’s future EU membership.

Conclusion

The Cham issue has three main aspects: firstly there is the recognition of the problem by the Greek government, secondly there is the property issue, and then there is the question of citizenship. When discussing the Cham problem with Albanian politicians, they usually argue that it should not be seen as a political confrontation with the Greek government, because it is an economic issue and there is no point transforming it into a political issue.42 However this is too simplistic and also incorrect, because the Chams see financial compensation as just one factor in their demands.
The top priorities for the Cham people remain: the right to return to their properties in Greece and to regain legal title to their properties; the right to obtain Greek citizenship, whilst retaining the citizenship of the country in which they currently reside; and the right to live, work and travel freely in Greece without having to obtain visas. It is probable, however, that many upland Chams would settle for visas and passports but the lowland Chams would also expect their valuable land back, as well as compensation for its use since their expulsion. They would then be able to decide themselves whether to sell their property or not. They also want dual citizenship – Albanian and Greek, and want to be recognised as Greek citizens of Albanian nationality. According to most Chams, money is not as important as citizenship. “We have been refugees for a long time. We want our identity back,” they claim.
The Chams, despite constant setbacks and broken promises, are still unanimous in their insistence that the matter be solved through dialogue and not violence. Their wishes should be respected and their efforts to find a peaceful solution should be encouraged. In the light of recent developments, it is no longer possible for Greece to continue to claim that there is no Cham issue, and that the 1996 Treaty of Friendship somehow abolished the need for the Greek parliament to ratify the abolition of the War Law. With their Party for Justice and Integration, the Chams have put themselves firmly on the political map. Committed activists are working hard to build the party in every city with a Cham community, and the party could take tens of thousands votes away from the ruling Democratic Party in forthcoming elections.
This is an historical legacy that requires new political initiatives to resolve. The Albanian government needs to be very clear and specific in its discussions regarding the Chams’ demands. The War Law must certainly be included in any talks and resolutions because it constitutes a real obstacle to achieving a lasting solution to the Chams’ property claims. Future relations between Greece and Albania will most certainly be held hostage by the Cham issue, therefore talks should be held as soon as possible and they should be held under international auspices. The human rights issues of the Chams cannot be resolved solely between Albania, Greece and institutions representing the Cham population. A fair and lasting solution should be achieved with international mediation and support from EU institutions and the United States.
In the coming years, it is going to become increasingly difficult for the Albanian and Greek governments, and indeed the EU institutions, to continue to ignore the Cham issue, which risks being hijacked by radical elements in Albania and elsewhere. There is already a split between moderate and radical Chams, with the former still by far the majority, but soon the Chams will have exhausted all reasonable democratic channels in which to call attention to their case.
Both sides should try to understand each other’s perspective on this complex issue. The Greeks must accept the historical truth about the confiscation of Cham-owned land, and the intimidation and persecution the Chams suffered under the dictatorship of General Metaxas during the late 1930s. For their part, the Chams must understand the truly dreadful horrors suffered by the Greek people at the hands of the Nazis in World War II, and their subsequent intolerance towards those believed to have collaborated with the occupying forces.
There is some recent speculation that Greece may now be considering doing a deal with the Chams, which could see some receiving compensation in exchange for the renewal of the leases on Greek-owned property in Albania. If true, this is a useful step that could become the cornerstone of positive dialogue aimed at finding a lasting solution to the Cham issue. This would encourage a marked improvement in Greek-Albanian relations, and remove one of the more straightforward, yet most emotive cornerstones of the Albanian national question, and contribute to the development of peace and stability in the Southern Balkans.

No Genocide .

TirAlb, that Miranda Vickers report is propaganda and fully reflects the Albanian perspective. The Greek government does not recognize a "Cham issue" and frankly I don't see how they can be compelled to do so without opening the floodgates (some of which will have a very negative impact on many countries including Albania itself).

I think that is an unbiased description of the situation,useful for people that want to know more about the issue.

ps.Olvis Miranda wrote it,you have quoted her so many times in the past.;)

Exactly Tiralb and she is not claiming Genocide.She merely mentions what the Chams say .

PS

The chams are the ones that have to apologise and compensate Greece.

German Nazi's killed Jews.Germans military and civilans were killed .Jews were compensated and received apologies from Germans.

Albanian Chams Nazi's Killed Greeks.Albanian Cham military and civilians were killed .Greeks must be compensated and receive apologies from Chams and the Albanian nation as a whole.

Case closed.

Also note that in now way will Nazi collaborators will receive apologies

From Miranda Vickers report
Background

The Chams have a strong sense of tradition, identity and community which has united them over the past 62 years since their expulsion from Greece as suspected Nazi collaborators.5 This is in part due to the violence they suffered historically, but also to a collective prejudice against them on both sides of the border. Many Chams were persecuted by the Albanian Communist regime, which like the Greeks, believed that they had collaborated with the Italians and Germans

Can you read?


Many Chams were persecuted by the Albanian Communist regime, which like the Greeks, believed that they had collaborated with the Italians and Germans

Massacres by EDES started in 1913? Cool! :rolleyes:

The best known massacre of EDES was 30 Italians dying in the fighting at Gorgopotamos in 1942, when the famous incident of the destruction of the bridge by Greek guerillas and British commandos took place. In the fighting 30 Italians died. It was not really a massacre, only 30 were killed and they were more heavily armed than the Greeks but does it qualify? The poor Italians could have been having a pizza in Napoli but instead came to Greece on a walk to Athens (as Mussolini called it) only to be massacred by the terrible andartes of EDES. Should we parhaps offer reparations to Italy for the Italians who died in Greece during WWII?

The Tsamides collaborated with the Germans in 1943-1944 and a unit appears to have been formed. In the YouTube video below there are photographs of a German officer reviewing an Albanian unit presumably in Greece and of an officer in German uniform with a fez, possibly Albanian, I understand from Greece - but could be from Albania. In any case Albanians and Germans collaborated in the prosecution of resistance fighters and Greek elders in Epirus. There are clear testimonies of German officers about the Tsamides collaborators. The majority left along with the Germans during liberation in 1944. Emver Hodja executed after the war one of the Tsamides leaders (Mazar Dino) for collaboration with the Germans.

Did we also ethnically cleanse the Germans of Greece during 1944?

YouTube - ????????

20,000 Tsamides German collaborators ask for all of western Greece to become Albanian - the logic of it, the good will to their neighbours - no wonder such people had no written language until 100 years ago...

---------------------------------------------------

I am an Epirote and therefore a Greek and I have on my mind the affairs of all Greeks. Epirus is of course a part of Greece.

Akritas probably you are right,its true no evidences no crime,and those chams in Albania and their testimonys are not enough because its only their word against Greek word.And theres one last detail,all that happend on greek soil,a little bit hard to investigate without your permisson.
However im not here to prove anything i don't have to and im not able,i know what happend there and why,and you know as well,thats important.There are people denying the Holocaust around,so im not that naive to think that Greece its not able to hide and distort a such small eveniment in comparision to all that giant thing called WW2.

TirAlb,

You are not just talking about compensation. Your thread is about a “genocide”. A genocide! I do not know what sources claim there was a Cham genocide. I do not think anybody is denying the genocide against the Jews. What relation does that have with this fiction? Just because there was a Jewish genocide by the Germans during the Nazi period, it does not mean that the Albanians (who mostly collaborated with the Nazi Germans and Fascist Italians) were the victims of genocide by the occupied Greeks in WWII. This is complete nonsense! It is pure lack of logic and you should be really asking yourself what kind of a propaganda or cover-up has managed to convince what kind of people (how naive they were) about something so ridiculous.

There were 20,000 Tsamides in Greece before the war, which I understand to mean 20,000 muslim Albanians. Other muslim Albanians might have been exchanged during the exchanges of populations. Often muslims in Greece in the period of the population exchanges were equated with Turks. There were a great number of Greeks in the depths of Turkey and in modern FYROM and Bulgaria who were also exchanged, but we are not talking of a genocide.

Between the two world wars I understand some of the land owned by the Tsamides was confiscated to accommodate refugees from Turkey. This caused problems, somewhat understandable, as most Tsamides did not consider themselves at that time Turks and did not wish to leave and Turkey had reservations about their exchange. They did however take the side of the Italians and the Germans. Tsamides during the occupation of Greece were apparently responsible for burning 24 villages, making thousands homeless and were responsible for the killing or causing the disappearance of over 1000 Greeks. We need to compensate them for this? And ironically a compensation was given by Greece to Albania during the German occupation in 1941 for damages caused in Albania by the Greek army during the war – even though Greece had been the subject of attack.

After the war, a few Tsamides stayed in Greece and were unharmed. The property of others, those that had left, was given in 1952 by a judicial decision to the families of their victims. It seems the majority of the 20,000 Tsamides of Epirus went to Albania as the Axis forces were retreating. I do not think any among them would want to confess that they left because they were, at least many of them, Nazi collaborators. Some Tsamides might claim the Greeks chased them for no reason (ridiculously because the Greek partisans were Nazi collaborators, which only a child could believe…) and that is why they left. No one would admit, whether in communist Albania or immigrants elsewhere, that they had been Nazi collaborators, nor would they say to their children the true reason for which they had to leave.

There are people in Albania I understand who were their descendants, so in any case there was no genocide otherwise there would be no descendants today. But you are not just talking about compensation for their lands (Albania was on the side of the Axis, so the Greeks should be the ones asking for reparations really). You are talking here of a genocide! You say it is our word against yours. What evidence is there for a genocide? There were Greeks in Marsaille and in Barcelona and in Alexandria and in Odessa in Ukraine (these cities were actually founded by the Greeks and were at first inhabited by Greeks) but we are not protesting about their “genocide”. And just because the Spanish would deny a genocide of Greeks in Barcelona, it does not mean that there was one and it is just our word against theirs.

Yes, if I said we demand compensation for the genocide of the Greeks of Barcelona, everyone would ridicule me, and some might even fight me if they got mad enough, but I do not think I would ever win that one. Please live in reality.

---------------------------------------------------

I am an Epirote and therefore a Greek and I have on my mind the affairs of all Greeks. Epirus is of course a part of Greece.

TirAlb evidence please? I mean for the great calamity and the holocaust everybody knows it and speaks about it. Can you provide some evidence please?

ALBANIAN NAZIS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6ngoJu-EFw

Truth has to be known.

Edit.
Changed youtube. Other one was off topic. My bad

Today there are approximately 250,000 Chams in Albania and an estimated 400,000 in the wider diaspora, mostly in the USA and Turkey. Despite being granted Albanian citizenship in 1953, many Chams still regard themselves as refugees deprived of their Greek citizenship and the right to return to their property in Greece. The Chams are campaigning for the Greek government to acknowledge the violence perpetrated against them, and for the return of their confiscated properties together with compensation for their use since their expulsion. They also want their Greek citizenship restored. Cham-owned properties in Greece are assessed at around US$2.8billion and include vineyards, forestry and grazing land, domestic and commercial property.
:kick: :hyper: :heh:

Excuse my language.

A ten year old child !
Filty animals :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

650.000 Chams...so in 40s were 300.000. REDICILUS.
Where Vickers found this number ?
Mixed-Commission in 20s was clear as about the numbers.
5.000 from 10.000 that want to leave .. flew in Turkey(what news) and the remaining were 19.244 people (including and the 5000 "Turks")!!!

In 16-10-1940 according the Greek census remain ONLY 16.890 Muslims Chams/

Considering that there are 650,000 Chams today, it makes you wonder how many there would have been if no genocide had happened. :rolleyes:

650,000 out of what ? 10,000 ?

1945-2008 makes 63 years.That would mean their population went up x65.That means that their population doubled each year.................:dry:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/2/5/a/25aba440ec0edc8bcdd3e9f21bc596c5.png



http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/2/a/d2a52e344c957c39b9ba6b9f92b4390a.png

Albanians in albania were about 900'000 after ww2,now we are about 3.200.000.

Chams in Albania today are 250'000,made of different waves and the last one was in 1944,were 50'000 of them were ethnic cleansed.

400'000 Diaspora chams,mostly in turkey and in the USA.I think you know how thy got there.

So do again your calculation Akritas.

Let don't forget orthodox chams,were do they live,did they disappear?

I dont need to make any calculations. I have the official census of the Mixed-Commission and the Greek one. Is obvious that Vickers source is Albanian and mistaken.

Vickers ignore in her study documents of
the British Foreign Office that estimated Chams in 25.000 (PRO/FO, 371/48094, Col C.A.S. Palmer)
US State Department (NADS, 768.75/1245, 2-6 April 1945) that estimated Chams in 18.000 to 25.000 people

I dont need to make any calculations. I have the official census of the Mixed-Commission and the Greek one. Is obvious that Vickers source is Albanian and mistaken.

Vickers ignore in her study documents of
the British Foreign Office that estimated Chams in 25.000 (PRO/FO, 371/48094, Col C.A.S. Palmer)
US State Department (NADS, 768.75/1245, 2-6 April 1945) that estimated Chams in 18.000 to 25.000 people

Yes you don't need calculations,but you did those calculations so i replyed.
Interesting though that the ethnic cleansing occured in march and the US ESTIMATION was done in april.And by the way were are tose 18000-25000 chams today.Are they recognized as a minority in greece or they suddenly decided of they own free will of course to consider themselves Greek?
And im just thinking,if Albania was liberated in 29/11/1944 i assume that greece was liberated even earlier so what was done to Chams in 1945 was a well orchestrated plan.

Yes you don't need calculations,but you did those calculations so i replyed.
Interesting though that the ethnic cleansing occured in march and the US ESTIMATION was done in april.And by the way were are tose 18000-25000 chams today.Are they recognized as a minority in greece or they suddenly decided of they own free will of course to consider themselves Greek?
And im just thinking,if Albania was liberated in 29/11/1944 i assume that greece was liberated even earlier so what was done to Chams in 1945 was a well orchestrated plan.

The well orchestrated plan was what was done to the Greeks the Jews and all the ones the Nazi's Germans,Italians,Bulgarians & Albanians alike considered to be less then human.

Yes you don't need calculations,but you did those calculations so i replyed.
Interesting though that the ethnic cleansing occured in march and the US ESTIMATION was done in april.And by the way were are tose 18000-25000 chams today.Are they recognized as a minority in greece or they suddenly decided of they own free will of course to consider themselves Greek?
And im just thinking,if Albania was liberated in 29/11/1944 i assume that greece was liberated even earlier so what was done to Chams in 1945 was a well orchestrated plan.
Look I am not here to learn your history. You have your historians for that. I have show you three official and not Greek sources. If you want more details just found the specific reports. And add one more source that describe where Chams went after the expellling...

Berati.......4.500
Lousnia......2.500
Saranta......2.200
Konispole...2-3.000
Delvino........1.000
Avlona.......1.000
Fieri........1.600
Elbasan....1.600
Kavaya.....1.700
Kroya....450

source:US State Department (NADS, 875.48/5-3045, 30 May 1945)


Chams left twice from the Greek soil. The first wave with the German troops (Oct-Nov 44) , some they cameback in order to join the Communists forces and finally they left in spring of 1945.

Excuse my language.

A ten year old child !
Filty animals :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

You are excused morfeus.If you want to discuss modern Kosovas history,just open a thread.

You are excused morfeus.If you want to discuss modern Kosovas history,just open a thread.

You're right, didn't realise it, till after I posted and was way past my bed time. :dry:

TirALB

Because you like pictures I will submit this picture of a Cham officer dressed in a German officers uniform standing next to his friends.

This together with the fact that there is documentation used by German officers to support that Chams were the ONLY volunteers who helped the Germans "smoke out" all local resistance (=kill anyone that fights Germans) so that "when" the Germans won the war they would get the lands they were promised by the Germans, should make you think that maybe your claims for money and a better life on behalf of your ancestors looks more like a joke to the Greeks. Next thing you know the Germans will demand houses in Mykonos because of the "genocide" they suffered in the Greek hands during the war....
:dry:

If you accept that all of this is true then it shouldn't be so difficult to understand why at the end of the war the Chams FLED to Albania to escape retaliation for their actions during the war by people who knew them TOO well.

Please remember that the actions of the Greeks (to hate the chams) resulted from the Chams actions in the war. So they didn't wake up one day hating one tribe for no reason.

Here we go. These are the people that want money and land in Greece because the Greeks commited genocide against them.....

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.4dd3bbe48f.jpg (http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?4dd3bbe48f.jpg)

Hi All I'm new here, I'm Albanian from Prespa....

About the chams, we all know what happened, but just a reminder:

It says I need 5 posts to post a link..

thats 3

thats 4

and 5

Who better to know what happened than the Chams... lest hear what they say:


http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq-YeAmpbGs

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=uLxwhezFRbs&feature=related:angry:

where is your link?

Also who does 2000 deaths equal genocide when there 4-8 million Albanians!?

1- Zervas was a Greek NAZI , he kill the innocent Albanian minorances !
2- He was accused by the Greek communists for the massacre of Chameria !
3- All the Chamerians collaborate with the Albanian Nationalist govern of H.Mitrovica !
4- Islam is considered the biggest enemy of the Aryanism !
5- Albanians are considered the biggest enemies of the European Neo Nazi [1] (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/) :angry:

1- Zervas was a Greek NAZI , he kill the innocent Albanian minorances !
2- He was accused by the Greek communists for the massacre of Chameria !


hahahaha communists say alot of things. Communists accuse him of being a an Anglophile one minute and then a Nazi the next.:rolleyes: Nevermind that he directed one of the the biggest blows against Nazi occupation by ANY resistance movement in Europe (the destroying of Geogopotamos Bridge).

cham genocide

Genocide? what genocide? Did some people commit mass suicide?

5- Albanians are considered the biggest enemies of the European Neo Nazi [1] (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/) :angry:

Albanians had their own SS Waffen. Greeks didnt. Only the Russians lost more of its population per capita than the Greeks as a result of Nazi invasion. The Cham Waffen wearing their fez forget the part they had in this?

Napoleon Zervas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Zervas) ( Arta, May 17, 1891 - 1957) was a Greek general and resistance leader during World War II. He organized and led the National Republican Greek League (EDES), a resistance organization against the Nazi occupation of Greece.

Originally a Venizelist, Zervas incorporated royalists into his movement who saw EDES as the only acceptable alternative to EAM, the Communist-dominated resistance movement. His activities were largely confined to Epirus, though he took part in the sabotage of Gorgopotamos bridge, which seriously hampered the German supply route to Rommel's Afrika Korps.

After Liberation, Zervas participated in Dimitrios Maximos' cabinet as Minister of Public Order and in Sophoklis Venizelos' cabinet as Minister of Works. Zervas was forced to resign in 1947, when details of his contacts with the German occupation authorities surfaced, after his troops had been attacked by communist andartes. He was also accused by greek leftwingers of violence against Cham Albanians as retaliation for the collaborationist attitudes of the Muslim Albanian-speaking minority. EDES operations against Chams who had actively collaborated with Nazi occupation forces were ordered by the Allied headquarters in Alexandria, Egypt, and several British officers served in the EDES staff as liaisons coordinating the operations, the exact extent of which remains undocumented.
------------------------------------------------------------
Chamerian massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameria_issue)
------------------------------------------------------------
Greek Nazi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_National_Socialist_Party)
:clapping:

collaborationist attitudes of the Muslim Albanian-speaking minority.
21st SS Division Skanderbeg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg _%281st_Albanian%29)

Zervas was forced to resign in 1947, when details of his contacts with the German occupation authorities surfaced, after his troops had been attacked by communist andartes.

Absolute garbage. This has either been added to the wiki page by an Albanian or a Greek communist. Richard Clogg makes no mention of his leaving government as a result of collaboration being "uncovered" in his short biography of him:

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/4880/cloggconcisehistoryofgreh3.jpg


He was also accused by greek leftwingers of violence against Cham Albanians as retaliation for the collaborationist attitudes of the Muslim Albanian-speaking minority.

Who is denying that he was violent towards the Albanians who collaboratored with the Nazis in Greek soil? I only wish I had been around to see their executions.

Absolute garbage. This has either been added to the wiki page by an Albanian or a Greek communist. Richard Clogg makes no mention of his leaving government as a result of collaboration being "uncovered" in his short biography of him:

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/4880/cloggconcisehistoryofgreh3.jpg



Who is denying that he was violent towards the Albanians who collaboratored with the Nazis in Greek soil? I only wish I had been around to see their executions.


Children and womens killed and raped..are you sure about that wish?

My statements pretty clear: anyone who collaborates with Nazi Germany on Greek soil deserved an execution.

In regards to the women and children post some evidence, and not just what the Archbishop of some Albanian Church in the US thinks.

Children and womens killed and raped..Yeah sure,just like the "thousands" of women killed and raped by the Serbs in Kosovo.:rolleyes:
ALbanian tall tales,as effective as a pyramid scheme.

Yeah sure,just like the "thousands" of women killed and raped by the Serbs in Kosovo.:rolleyes:
ALbanian tall tales,as effective as a pyramid scheme.

Really ? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameria_issue)

Peace Lover I still dont understand why you call it massacre or genocide? It must have been a mass suicide exercise right?

What I don't understand is whether the activities of the Chams during the Katohi against the local Greek and Jewish populations were genocide or not.

Ioannina once had a vibrant Greek-speaking (Romaniote) Jewish community. Nowadays there are about 92 (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-macedonia-forum/6323-jewish-community-slams-flag-insult-3.html#post65809) left. Pse?

I don't claim nothing like genocide or massacre !
European Party for the Justice and the Integration call it GENOCIDATION !
The various encyclopedies call it massacre !
----------------------------------------------
HA HA , this moderator Draco is so funny !
The Chams doing something bad to the Greeks of Ioannina !
Muahahaha !
1- Ioannina wasn't included in the Italo-German Albania !
2- The Chamerian Albanian don't partecipate in the govern or army !
3- Who was killed , from who ? The Albanians kill the Greeks or viceversa ??
4- The definitive proof that Draco is totally ignorant(not informed) in ANYTHING is that : THE ALBANIANS DOING SOMETHING BAD TO THE JEWS !
MUAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH
, my gosh , I'm crying this is so funny , the most stupid thing that I ever listen in my life !
////////////////////////////////////////////
1- The Jews are the fathers of the Albanology , this is claimed in any Jew and Albanian Forum !
2- The Albanians are claimed like the friend of the Jews in any Nazi forum (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/) !
3- Some months before to Berisha was asked about the Scanderbeg film in Hollywood , he said that the Albanians don't want a Scanderbeg film , but a film about the WWII for the Jew-Albanian brotherhood !
4- Albania was the only country of Europe when wasn't killed the Jews , ZERO !
5- My grandfather help two Jew families to leave Bari for Durrës !
/////////////////////////////////////////////
You are victims of your ignorance , Greeks !

I don't claim nothing like genocide or massacre !
European Party for the Justice and the Integration call it GENOCIDATION !
The various encyclopedies call it massacre !
----------------------------------------------
HA HA , this moderator Draco is so funny !
The Chams doing something bad to the Greeks of Ioannina !
Muahahaha !
1- Ioannina wasn't included in the Italo-German Albania !
2- The Chamerian Albanian don't partecipate in the govern or army !
3- Who was killed , from who ? The Albanians kill the Greeks or viceversa ??
4- The definitive proof that Draco is totally ignorant(not informed) in ANYTHING is that : THE ALBANIANS DOING SOMETHING BAD TO THE JEWS !
MUAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH
, my gosh , I'm crying this is so funny , the most stupid thing that I ever listen in my life !
////////////////////////////////////////////
1- The Jews are the fathers of the Albanology , this is claimed in any Jew and Albanian Forum !
2- The Albanians are claimed like the friend of the Jews in any Nazi forum (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/) !
3- Some months before to Berisha was asked about the Scanderbeg film in Hollywood , he said that the Albanians don't want a Scanderbeg film , but a film about the WWII for the Jew-Albanian brotherhood !
4- Albania was the only country of Europe when wasn't killed the Jews , ZERO !
5- My grandfather help two Jew families to leave Bari for Durrës !
/////////////////////////////////////////////
You are victims of your ignorance , Greeks !

Whats the point of this hysterical post?

1- Ioannina wasn't included in the Italo-German Albania !
2- The Chamerian Albanian don't partecipate in the govern or army !

Completely and utterly irrelevant. The Chams did the killing in the areas under Italian control. Woodhouse says in his 'Short History of Modern Greece' that the Italians and Germans actually had to restrain the Albanian collaborators in their brutal retribution against Greeks, same as they had to do in Croatia.

What I don't understand is whether the activities of the Chams during the Katohi against the local Greek and Jewish populations were genocide or not.

Ioannina once had a vibrant Greek-speaking (Romaniote) Jewish community. Nowadays there are about 92 (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-macedonia-forum/6323-jewish-community-slams-flag-insult-3.html#post65809) left. Pse?

What about Selanik jews,or Albanians did that too?I suggest you this book i read a couple of years ago,and its a very interesting read,of Robert Kaplan:"Greece: Lover of West, Wife of East".

The cham problem is very simple.They were under the greek tyranny from the 1913 greek invasion of Epirus.So is understandable that some of them saw germans as liberators.But they were just a minority.Greek used the collaboration card just as an excuse to definitively resolve the cham problem.Well i guess we are better then you guys,we never did smth like that to our greek minority,though they proved their disloyality in many occasions.

Well i guess we are better then you guys,we never did smth like that to our greek minority,though they proved their disloyality in many occasions.

yeah you just claim that any person who's from Albania claiming to a ethnic greek is a liar!:rolleyes: so much for "albanian" tolerance!!

Really ? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameria_issue)
Yes,really.THere wasnt anything there about children and women killed and raped.
Let this be a lesson to you,dont collaborate with Nazis!

Yes,really.THere wasnt anything there about children and women killed and raped.
Let this be a lesson to you,dont collaborate with Nazis!

I don't understand it ?
Are you talking about the Hitlers diary , about the occupation of this small but important country in southern Europe called Albanien ?
Or about the FACT that already these days the Albanians are considered friend of the Jews and enemies of the Aryan race ?
:angry:

I don't understand it ?
Are you talking about the Hitlers diary , about the occupation of this small but important country in southern Europe called Albanien ?
Or about the FACT that already these days the Albanians are considered friend of the Jews and enemies of the Aryan race ?
:angry:
How is it a fact that "Albanians are considered enemies of the Aryan race"?? Just because a Serb said he doesn't like Albanians on a Nazi forum??

How is it a fact that "Albanians are considered enemies of the Aryan race"?? Just because a Serb said he doesn't like Albanians on a Nazi forum??

Because the Albanians are not accepted by those Aryans !
Ask to them , why not ! (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/)

Because the Albanians are not accepted by those Aryans !
Ask to them , why not ! (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/)
Who cares what Serbs on Stormfront think? The acts of certain Albanians during WWII speak for themselves.

I don't claim nothing like genocide or massacre !
European Party for the Justice and the Integration call it GENOCIDATION !
The various encyclopedies call it massacre !
----------------------------------------------

You should actually present the party's entire name : its the PDI (Partia për Drejtësi dhe Integrim) "European Integration and Justice Albanian Party"


The Chams doing something bad to the Greeks of Ioannina !
Muahahaha !

Why centralize on the city of Ioannina alone?

1- Ioannina wasn't included in the Italo-German Albania !

The issue isn't what Italians and Germans had in mind for the region but that Ioannina was also under the Whermacht's control.

2- The Chamerian Albanian don't partecipate in the govern or army !

Thats your claim.. reknowned historian Mark Mazower sees it differently:

"Not suprisingly, when the Italians finally took control of mainland Greece in
1941, they found Cham activists will to call for unification of the region with
Albania. Several hundreds were conscripted into the anti-communist Bal
Komitare to act as local gardarmes. From the autumn of 1943 these armed
bands took part alongside the Whermacht in buring Greek villages."

3- Who was killed , from who ? The Albanians kill the Greeks or viceversa ??

Your answer is above...

4- The definitive proof that Draco is totally ignorant(not informed) in ANYTHING is that : THE ALBANIANS DOING SOMETHING BAD TO THE JEWS !
MUAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH
, my gosh , I'm crying this is so funny , the most stupid thing that I ever listen in my life !

So you're claiming that the Albanians of the 13th and 21st Waffen Divisions never harmed a single Jew?
Mark Mazower in his "Inside Hitler's Greece" provides more than enough evidence for the persecution of the Jews of Hellas by Albanians/Chams.


2- The Albanians are claimed like the friend of the Jews in any Nazi forum (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/) !

Where does your link provide anything which would support your claim ?

4- Albania was the only country of Europe when wasn't killed the Jews , ZERO NOT the only but one of the few.

Chamerian issue . (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameria_issue)