Ioannina celebrates liberation from the Turks today - photos

[Mygdonia]

http://www.geetha.mil.gr/media/anakoinoseis/giannena/big/1.jpg

http://www.geetha.mil.gr/media/anakoinoseis/giannena/big/2.jpg

http://www.geetha.mil.gr/media/anakoinoseis/giannena/big/3.jpg

http://www.geetha.mil.gr/media/anakoinoseis/giannena/big/4.jpg

http://www.geetha.mil.gr/media/anakoinoseis/giannena/big/5.jpg

http://www.geetha.mil.gr/media/anakoinoseis/giannena/big/6.jpg

http://www.geetha.mil.gr/media/anakoinoseis/giannena/big/7.jpg

http://www.geetha.mil.gr/media/anakoinoseis/giannena/big/8.jpg

[Tsontos]

Ioannina became apart of the Greek state on Feburary the 21st 1913 following the defeat of the Ottoman army and its Albanian battalions.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8841/photo14ff5.jpg

[Victor]

Does ALbanian history agree with this?Or do they say that they were fighting the Turks and the Greeks at the same time??

[Amarantos]

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/general-greek-history/489-today-hellenic-history-29.html#post15982

[Tsontos]

Albanians had nationalist organisations which wanted independence from Turkish rule and Greek influence of course, but it doesnt change the fact that they were a major element in Turkish armies in Europe since the middle ages and this was certainly also the case during the Epirot campaigns of the Balkan wars.

[TirAlb]

Yeah in a world were up is down and left is right that can be called liberation.

[Draco]

Yeah in a world were up is down and left is right that can be called liberation.
For the Greeks (who have always been majority in the area) it is liberation.

[Victor]

Yeah in a world were up is down and left is right that can be called liberation.THats what you get for supporting the Turks back then instead of seeing what everyone else could see-that the Ottomans were weak and were about to disappear from the BAlkans.
STop blaming others for your embarassing shortsightedness.

[Tsontos]

I guess the world was the right way up, and all was right in it, in 1941 then TirAlb?

[Victor]

EXtremely right when the Albos were listening to MUssolini and Hitler.
Zeig heil!

[TirAlb]

Its intittled "What have seen the eyes of Janina" or just "Janino"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfsyz3P5lz0

same song but its live and an amatorial group sings it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsgq09ktoyI&feature=related

This is for sure one of the best albanian polifonic Lab songs,its a mourning song.Its about an albanin uprising against Turks in the region of Janina.In brief these Alb cacaks leaded from Zenel Celo and Tavel Gjoni,killed a turkish officer in Janina.Then it tells about a battle in the five wells defile (near janina),between albanians and the turkish army leaded by a Pasha,sended by the sultan to suppress the uprising.During the battle Zenel and Tavel are able alone to breach the turkish formation(tabor) and to reach the pasha,but when they were in front of him they just spited him in the face.Then they were killed.

[Victor]

Nice revisionism.Little doubt that the basis of this song was a Greek-VLach revolt,and that there were more ALbanians in the Pashas army than Turks.

[Tsontos]

The thread is about the liberation (or genocide as TirAlb may wish it be known as) of Ioannina, so stick to topic tiralb.

[TirAlb]

Whats better than hundred and more years old song,to prove that we fought against turks aswell.I brought it as an historical evidence.

[Tsontos]

Whats better than hundred and more years old song,to prove that we fought against turks aswell.I brought it as an historical evidence.

Actually what you did was show us a video from youtube, where the uploader is claiming it is a hundred year old song (songs are very hard to date from their inception historiographically for obvious reasons). You can understand that we have Skopjians claiming communist era songs and old Bulgarian songs where they have changed the words as "ancient" or at least "hundred year old Macedonian songs" why we can be sceptical of this.

Also as I said I dont doubt there were Albanian nationalist organisations, probably active in Ioannina by the turn of the century or later whose enemy was the Turk. That doesnt change the fact that due to the traditional alliance of Albanians with the Turk, and sharing their faith for the most part, that your national enlightenment happened later than the other Balkan peoples and by the time of the Balkan wars, you still formed a significant part of the Turkish armies. Including the ones the "Epirus" and "Thessaly" sections of the Greek army defeated in 1913.


Anyway unless it has something to do with the 21st of February 1913 it is off-topic.

[TirAlb]

Actually what you did was show us a video from youtube, where the uploader is claiming it is a hundred year old song (songs are very hard to date from their inception historiographically for obvious reasons). You can understand that we have Skopjians claiming communist era songs and old Bulgarian songs where they have changed the words as "ancient" or at least "hundred year old Macedonian songs" why we can be sceptical of this.

We are balkanians,so you should know what epic songs were for us and how were handed on,by word of mouth,from father to son.This song corresponds to a known and dated event,indeed its just the idealized record of it.And,if we had to produce songs for some kind of "hidden agenda",we would use names like Pirro and Aleksander instead of Tavel and Zenel.

Also as I said I dont doubt there were Albanian nationalist organisations, probably active in Ioannina by the turn of the century or later whose enemy was the Turk. That doesnt change the fact that due to the traditional alliance of Albanians with the Turk, and sharing their faith for the most part, that your national enlightenment happened later than the other Balkan peoples and by the time of the Balkan wars, you still formed a significant part of the Turkish armies. Including the ones the "Epirus" and "Thessaly" sections of the Greek army defeated in 1913.

We was under the turkish rule,part of their state(just as you were 90 years before),but we had just gained our autonomy,in 1912 after the successful uprising of Kosova(or skopje),after that schools and books in Alb, were allowed,the four Alb vilajets united,and our soldiers would serve the turkish army only in these regions,and not in other parts of the empire.Indeed our autonomy was the main reason for the starting of the balkan war,because it was a serious menace,to our neighbours expansionist plans.So do you really think that the best choice for us was,joining Greeks,and why?It was just a change from an occupying to another,with the difference that the firsts just granted us a quasi independence,and we had in in common the same religion(most of us),and 500years of convivence. However the result in Janina was the same old Greko-Turkish deal,like the old deal between them and the Patrirchane to forbid an albanian written language or the future one for the deportation of moslem Albanian epirotes to turkey,and their exchange with greeks there,that im sure today are proud epirotes and dreaming for the northern part aswell.Janina is just one of the many similar stories of those days,it happend in Ulqin(some decades ago) and in SHkodra,Durres,Prizren,SHkupi,Korca ect in 1913.The only city you wasn't able to take was Vlora,where we proclaimed our independence.


Anyway unless it has something to do with the 21st of February 1913 it is off-topic.

ok!

[Truth Bearer]

Whats better than hundred and more years old song,to prove that we fought against turks aswell.I brought it as an historical evidence.

The Muslim Albanians never fought against their Muslim brothers the Turks where did you get that idea from TirAlb?Only the Christian Albanians fought against the Turks.Come on TirAlb I consider you a well read well balanced young man who understands history with a sense of LOGIC.

[TirAlb]

The Muslim Albanians never fought against their Muslim brothers the Turks where did you get that idea from TirAlb?Only the Christian Albanians fought against the Turks.Come on TirAlb I consider you a well read well balanced young man who understands history with a sense of LOGIC.

TB i think you have heard about someone called Ali Pasha Tepelena.

[Truth Bearer]

As an individual yes so did Mehmet Ali but not for Albanian nationalism mate.The Muslim Albo's never wanted to cede from their Ottoman overlords.

[TirAlb]

As an individual yes so did Mehmet Ali but not for Albanian nationalism mate.The Muslim Albo's never wanted to cede from their Ottoman overlords.

What do you mean with never,there are dozens of Albanian uprisings from the Prizren league onwards.Our declaration of independence was signed from a majority of moslem delegates,and the man who proclamed it was Ismail Qemali,a moslem.

[Truth Bearer]

Yes but that was in the 1900's (1912 declaration of independance) well after the reat of the balkanites became free states.Your people were the last to realize Albanian nationhood as an ideology.That was well after the 1st Balkan war when you lot realised that the Ottoman Empire was finished.

[TirAlb]

Yes but that was in the 1900's (1912 declaration of independance) well after the reat of the balkanites became free states.Your people were the last to realize Albanian nationhood as an ideology.That was well after the 1st Balkan war when you lot realised that the Ottoman Empire was finished.

Im not saying it was easy,we had a muslim majority and were divided in three religions,but muslim Albanians fought as well.However our first nationalist uprisings happend a little bit earlier then 1908:
The first example of major uprising based on nationalism,and aiming the creation of a separate Albanian region,though inside the empire,was the league of prizren 1878.There were to corrents inside,the first made by the big landowners,pro turkish,and the second leaded by Abdyl Frasheri asking an independent Albania.
They created the first Albanian army,to protect the Albanian regions that formally was given to Serbia(Nis area),Montenegro(ulqin area),Greece(Arta area),regions that Turkey losed in Saint Stefano.Indeed its true that Turkey used them/us,in a desperate attempt to preserve its territory.
And here we have the first battle against turks.The battle for Ulqin(on the adriatic coast).The army of the league mostly(muslim albanians) joined about 3000 albanian catholic highlanders volunteers of the area and organised the defense of the city,after the turkish retreat(that was decided in the SF treaty),The city was able to resist fo about 4months to the montegrinian army attacks.After that there was a show of force of the GB fleet,in the sea-coast,followed by a double attack,Montengrinians from the north anf Turks from south(the great powers ordered them to intervene),so the citty was finally incorporated in the monteneginian state.Then there was a general uprising of the league against turks,but it failed,and most of itd leaders were executed(like Asim Vokshi military leader) or had life sentences(like Abdyl Frasheri,political leader).It was 1879.

[Hermes]

Yeah, its true, in 1913, Janina was under Turkey, and Greeks liberated it from them. Were there ( in turkish army ) albanians ? Yes there were. Turkey didnt took the soldiers from China or London, took them from the ocupied teritories. Many other armies had mercenary people incorporated. Whats the point???
There were greeks in Janina those times ? Yes there were.
There were were albanians ? Who can say not.
Who was majority and whom minority ? No one is competent to say.
Invadors or liberated ? .........hey there are too many questions.

The big problem after this victory ( bcz to put of turks after centuries was realy a victory ) was what christians made to myslims, and the non -greek nationality. Opresion, secuestrition of the properties, all these to put them out of Greece.
Chams people suffered more it, their lands were taken, they couldnt use their language and many of them were killed. They were called colaborators, but all we know that the ones who killed them were filo-nazist, and the greatest colaborator of the germans. Academic Greeks say that, Politic is just Politic.
Anyway , if i knew it i would come in Janina to celebrate with greeks, it was realy a great day. The rest was sth worse than turk invasion, with the coice in the hands, in the name of christianity. Dont say anyone, that christians are diferent from musilims, are the most similar things in this world, the diference is that someone is named christian and someone else is called muslim(just aziatics as greeks and turks are).

[Lakonian]

Monotheism was birthed in Persia in terms of the whole God vs Devil notion. No one can claim the rights to this philosophy but the Persians.

From there, desperate attempts to use religion as a gateway to some sort of liberation warfare that has caused so many deaths is absolutely inhumane. And the Turks, are perhaps the best example of how stupidity can become an epidemic.

[chicagogeorge]

Travels in the Ionian Isles, Albania, Thessaly, Macedonia, &c. During the ...
by Henry Holland - Greece - 1815 - 551 pages


http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/9397/travelsintheionianislesei0.jpg


This artifact from 1815 shows us that the Greeks were in majority of Ioannina.....

[chicagogeorge]

another account of Ioannina (and Epirus in general) from an outside point of view. This from the year 1880....

The Library Magazine - Page 673
1880

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/2788/16483546wn4.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

yet another interesting artifact from:

Pamphlets relating to English history The eastern question Janina 1877

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/3757/pamphletsrelatingtoenglcs6.jpg

[kostas68]

Evge,file mou,giati ki aytoi eihan arhisei na mas prizoun san tous Skopianous,se ligo mehri kai stin...Kriti tha mas elegan oti eihan dikous tous.

[chicagogeorge]

Evge,file mou,giati ki aytoi eihan arhisei na mas prizoun san tous Skopianous,se ligo mehri kai stin...Kriti tha mas elegan oti eihan dikous tous.

Gia 'fto tous ferno doukoumenta apo aftin tin epochi gia na doun ti legane oi xenoi gia ta meri mas....





The Muslim Bonaparte: Diplomacy and Orientalism in Ali Pasha's Greece
by Katherine Elizabeth Fleming - Biography & Autobiography - 1999 -pages 61-62

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3332/themuslimbonapartediploqu3.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

Some more empirical evidence of the ethnicity of the people of Epirus and the Hellenic cultural influence that the Greeks had over the Albanians in Epirus.from 1877

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1158/peopleofturkeyepiruslw8.jpg

[Grace]

Albanians had nationalist organisations which wanted independence from Turkish rule and Greek influence of course, but it doesnt change the fact that they were a major element in Turkish armies in Europe since the middle ages and this was certainly also the case during the Epirot campaigns of the Balkan wars.

just as they fought for the Greek independence (Suliotes, Hydra and Spetses) and for European powers as Stradioti for example.

But by mid 1850's Albanian were between the Turks, Serbs and Greeks. Since we had only enemies we got screwed.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/6921/albaniain1800sxh5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Great job hellenizing.

[Grace]

[QUOTE=chicagogeorge;77467]another account of Ioannina (and Epirus in general) from an outside point of view. This from the year 1880....

The Library Magazine - Page 673
1880


so since Albanians spoke Greek it was Greek right? Albanians speak Italian in huge number as well. We have also been through this: being called a "Greek" or a "Turk" didn't mean you were one in blood, merely religion.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Macedonia_Lejean.jpg/300px-Macedonia_Lejean.jpg

[Grace]

The Muslim Albanians never fought against their Muslim brothers the Turks where did you get that idea from TirAlb?Only the Christian Albanians fought against the Turks.Come on TirAlb I consider you a well read well balanced young man who understands history with a sense of LOGIC.

There is ZERO truth in what you said, but it's a common Greek thought mainly because it serves the "Albanians are bad" propaganda theme:


Isa Boletini, a muslim:
http://tribunashqiptare.albemigrant.com/phpnews/images/28nentor1912_isa_boletini.jpg

From NY Times:

New York Times September 12th, 1912

Uskub, Sept. 10- An interesting diversion among Albanians has been noted by the correspondents here. Two friends see each other from a distance and one, desirous of attracting the attention of his comrade, aims at his fez and shoots a hole through it. Both then approach, shake hands heartily, and smile. The most expert patriot in this form of salutation is Issa Bolatinaz, or , as his tribesmen call him, Bolatine, who is covered with Turkish wounds recieved from both bullets and daggers. Bolatine combines the characteristics of a bandit, revolutionary, and patriot. It is chiefly due to his initiative that the Albanians decided to march to Salonka. There was some dissension on this subject among the leaders, but Issa prevailed.


"There" he said "near the walls of the villa prison of Abdul we shall be able to enforce the unconditional acceptance of our demands."
Bolatine is illiterate. He can hardly sign his name, and printed matter is to him a puzzle. Yet so great is his influence and so formidable his reputation that neither Turkish officials nor officers of the army dare to touch him. At one time a big price was offered for his head, but no one ventred to persue him, or even to indicate hi whereabouts. The Albanians hold him in high esteem, verging on veneration. He is a man of about 60 years-tall, somewhat bent, and gaunt in appearance. He is able to bear hunger and thirst for days without losing his elasticity and perseverance.


He knows to perfection all the secret recesses and defiles of mountainous Albania, and the Ottoman authorities have long recognized the fact that it would be a hopeless task to search for him there. His greatest anxiety at the present moment is the spirit of dissension that has crept into the ranks of the Albanian leaders. He is an extremist. He has lost every belief in Turkish god-will, and thinks that the best way to argue with the Ottoman Government is with rifle and sword in hand. The Albanians are well supplied with arms, although two years ago every gun was taken from them. Questioned on this subject, Bolatine smiles slily and answers: " The Turk is cruel, but he is perfectly stupid , and is no match for the sagacious Albanian."

Another remarkable characteristic of Bolatine is his unerring aim with the rifle. He never misses. An Albanian was brought into his camp, and was accused of having shot dead a Turk, in spite of the proclaimed "bessa," (truce.)
"I understand, my boy" said Bolatine, addressing himself to the culprit, "you did not want to kill the Turk. You intended to amuse yourself, you are a very bad shot. I know you. Stand here, and do not move."
Saying this, Bolatine withdrew to a long distance, and, aiming with his rifle at his countryman, fired. The culprit's fez was perforated, and not a hair of his head was touched.

"This is how one amuses one's self during bessa. Go!" was Bolatine's dry remark.


http://www.thealbanians.com/historical_press/issa_boletini.htm I lost the NYT article in pdf and the search wont show it but this is an extract.


Wasn't Ali Pasha a Muslim as well and declared war on the Sultan, like the Bushatliu from Shkodra ?

[Grace]

THats what you get for supporting the Turks back then instead of seeing what everyone else could see-that the Ottomans were weak and were about to disappear from the BAlkans.
STop blaming others for your embarassing shortsightedness.

as I said before, it was between Greece, Serbia and Turkey. If Turkey falls, Greece and Serbia will, like vultures, rip the country apart. Choose!

I guess the world was the right way up, and all was right in it, in 1941 then TirAlb?

There was no state in Albania, the King let and the few 100 soldiers did what they were told.

Even though if someone had taken half of your land, you might join anyone to get it back. Some Greeks even support the Russians because they see them as defenders of orthodoxy

EXtremely right when the Albos were listening to MUssolini and Hitler.
Zeig heil!

Yea, the average Albanian peasant really love Nazis, he totally understood them.

As an individual yes so did Mehmet Ali but not for Albanian nationalism mate.The Muslim Albo's never wanted to cede from their Ottoman overlords.

Turks with their excellent collaborators, the Greek and Serbian Church denied Albanian schools and split us in 4 vilayets, purposefully making it harder to unite. Greeks down south even said there is no use to pray in Albanian because God does not understand it. Yes, you won this round and have hellenized quite a few Albanians, no need to rub it in. If we had the British, Russians and the French on our side we might have had a larger state too.

How many people in Greece grabbed guns to fight if they were so eager unlike the Muslim Albanians? They must have been well over 200,000 right?

The bad news: the truth is coming out and the "Hellenic blood" line might need to be modified a bit.

[chicagogeorge]

[QUOTE=chicagogeorge;77467]another account of Ioannina (and Epirus in general) from an outside point of view. This from the year 1880....

The Library Magazine - Page 673
1880


so since Albanians spoke Greek it was Greek right? Albanians speak Italian in huge number as well. We have also been through this: being called a "Greek" or a "Turk" didn't mean you were one in blood, merely religion.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Macedonia_Lejean.jpg/300px-Macedonia_Lejean.jpg


Now we are going to play the map game.... Ok.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Balkans-ethnic_%281877%29.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3f/Distribution_of_Races_on_the_Balkans_in_1922_Hammo nd.png

http://www.cc.ece.ntua.gr/~conster/English/PageData/Images/british_stanford_large.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

The bad news: the truth is coming out and the "Hellenic blood" line might need to be modified a bit.

Hmm.... Lets see how the Albanians fair out with their "pure" Illyrio/Pelasgian blood:clapping:

Wait a minute! The Ghegs are tall blonde "true Albanian like" or Slavic like :p While the Tosks are darker like their Greek neighbors. And I wonder which Greeks taught the Tosks to speak the Greek language? The Spartans? No, the Cretans? No. How about the Greeks who lived next to the Tosks, The Epirotes!:clapping:

Looks like the Tosk mixed with the Epirotes and look more like Greeks than real "true Albanians"

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/4751/ghegsandtiskdifferencesze0.jpg

[laagetes]

Grace you insult others for nationalistic behavior while you pretending to be the good one eh?When you are the best example of nationalism?Who the hell was that ''Albanian'' leader of the Greek War of Independence as you claim?The majority of you,were allies with the Turks that time.Is there any source which is serious enough to provide such information?Bcz the ''link'' you give is just one other complete nationalistic albanian article written by typical nationalistic albanian morons...Is there the ability to provide any books or written sources for that so called ''albanian'' leader?-who never existed actually....
p.s. have you read any of the books which are provided as sources?It is very easy to give some sources without even using them but just to create the notion that the article is neutral and according to history.

[Victor]

Yea, the average Albanian peasant really love Nazis, he totally understood them.The people in the Albanian government back then bent over for MUsolini and the NAzis,THAT is the point.



Turks with their excellent collaborators, the Greek and Serbian Church denied Albanian schools and split us in 4 vilayets, purposefully making it harder to unite. Greeks down south even said there is no use to pray in Albanian because God does not understand it. Yes, you won this round and have hellenized quite a few Albanians, no need to rub it in. If we had the British, Russians and the French on our side we might have had a larger state too.Would you like some cheese with your whine?Not my problem if you were so pathetic and useless back then that you couldnt get any big countries on your side.
How many people in Greece grabbed guns to fight if they were so eager unlike the Muslim Albanians? They must have been well over 200,000 right?ENough to win.

The bad news: the truth is coming out and the "Hellenic blood" line might need to be modified a bit.Whine,whine,whine.:dry:

[chicagogeorge]

Ioannina was so overwhelimgly Greek, leave alone that Ali Pasha made Greek the official language of his court, even the Jewish inhabitants adopted the Greek language, customs, and culture while living in Ioannina....

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6167/ioanninact5.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

It is also clear that in 1879 the Sandjaks of Ioannina and Preveza was overwhelmingly Greek. Ioannina has always been a Greek city;)

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3903/macimllansioanninaxy8.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4828/the19thcenturyepirusbygfq4.jpg