The Bulgarians stealing Orpheos and Euridiki

[Demetrius Doukas]

I just watched in the Bulgarian national TV a bulgarian clearly stating that Orpheos of course was bulgarian which made me law. It seems that like their scopian cousins claiming to be "Macedonian" in Bulgaria are spreading the propaganda inside and out that the bulgarians are Thracians. So I ask them what Orpheos and Euridiki means in bulgarian?!?
Everyone knows that the Thracians were semi-hellenic tribe completly Hellenized long before the upcoming of the first protobulgarian and slavic tribes. The strong Hellenic influence and character is clearly seen in all Thracian artifacts in their shape and depicting images found in Greece and Bulgaria, in the Thracian proper names and religion. You cannot get confused:))
How the bulgarian participants here will comment this?
I thought it proper to post that thread here in the section of "Slavic History and Slavic Migration" considering that we discuss the bulgarian history here as well.

[Paulos Melas]

The problem with Bulgars (both Bulgarians and Skopians) is that they are contained by serious inferiority complex and desperetaly try to erase their past and true origin.
Only Bulgars and the turks are desperately trying to proove their indigenous origins in the areas that they had colonised a thousand years ago.
The reason is that both they live on old greek lands and unfortunately for them the Greeks are not a distict nation of the past but an ancient but still alive and very vibrant nation .
So both bulgars and turks make up all this stories in order to justify why they legally have taken foreign greek land and live upon it.
I mean for me it doesn t make much of sense as this happened hundred of years ago ago but apparently their inferiority complex does not allow them to reconsile with their nomadic past.

[olvios]

They said he was bulgarian?! Didnt they say he was thracian?

[Demetrius Doukas]

They said he was bulgarian?! Didnt they say he was thracian?

No they don't actually they even did not mention the Thracians, also they said that I cite:
"because the bulgarians have the most beautiful songs in the balkans and are the best singers from whom the Greeks and the other neighboring countries have learned to sing and "stole" many songs it is obvious that Orfei(not Orpheos) is bulgarian.
ridiculous.

[olvios]

Wow Bulgaria is truly in the level of the Skopjans.

[Flipper]

Guys, Bulgaria is not on a FYROM level. You will see romantic exception like in any country.

We can't deny the fact that their land was once upper Thrace. However, just like Helladic civilizations of Neolithic times are not equal to Greek (but a substance of it), Thracians are not equal to Bulgarians.

Nowadays, both the Greeks of Thrace and Bulgarians have a distant link to Thracians and their history, but that doesn't make Thracians originaly Greek nor Bulgarian.

[Demetrius Doukas]

I did not tell you the most funny thing however:))
actually the whole TV discussion was raised to counteract the scopian claim that Orpheos is Macedonian in order to prove that he is pure bulgarian because the direct decendants of the Thracians are the bulgarians. Some time ago I found the same bulgarian claim in wikipedia in english regarding the history of bulgaria, also most of the more prominent bulgarian historians strongly support that, it is widely spread in the bulgarian universities and as a matter of fact in bulgaria "Thrace" is considered purely bulgarian cultural and political heritage and is not connected with the Hellenic civilization at all. In most bulgarian bookstores in the centre of Sofia I saw how many books the bulgarians are printing in supporting this theory, it is amazing really.

[Demetrius Doukas]

[QUOTE=Flipper;46143]Guys, Bulgaria is not on a FYROM level. You will see romantic exception like in any country.

The difference is only in the fact that the bulgarians did not name their country "Thrace" officially, but this does not prevent them to appropriate the whole Thracian heritage as a matter of their past. I had lived there for quite a time and know well their mentality in general...............:)

[Paulos Melas]

Guys just something interesting
Pan bulgarian/Bolgar/Bulgar UNITY :: View topic - Goriani (http://panbulgar.16.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=50)
If you read threads in this forum you will realise beyond any doublt the origins of Bulgars (ie Bulgarians and skopians)

[Demetrius Doukas]

Thank you Paulos,

If I'm not mistaken I found there our old aquiantance "tankistabg" and as "admin" in matter of fact hi hi hi:)))))

[Demetrius Doukas]

In general it is extremelly difficult to convince the average bulgarian that the Thracians are not Bulgarians:)))))))))))))))))))))

[Euklid]

Historical memory.

The Thracians, the Illyrians, the Ellines and so on and forth in the Ancient times..used to pay tribute to specific personalities..and that was the defining point of their ethnos, when they met altogether one way or another and paid tribute to specific important personalities. Ekphylismos is when a superior nation replaces its heroes with another nations heroes..and thus "assimilates"(later on) the other nation.

The Bulgarians had they had any Thracian connection...or the Croats with the Illyrians they would pay tribute to some kind?woudnt they? From their very start or during their ethno-genesis.

As far as i know there aren't any such records...

This is (b), (a) is the maternal language cause (a) secures (b) in context, are there any Thracian words instilled inside the Bulgarian dictionary? if you do not have any of these 2, you cannot go to (c) genetics and "cement" the ethnic-identity.

eg. DH Ellines have been paying tribute sta Ellinika to Orpheus..to Alexander the Great, to x, y, z, and they have been doing so for quite many centuries, and during any kind of occupation that has subdued them, mixed genetically with them, or whatever else..this tribute can be found either in Historical records, or in songs, poems aka epic poetry, hymns, chants, prayers, whatever really.

The annoying thing that produces obnoxiousness when discussing these particular things, is that some nations, without having any record of any sort, no historical memory whatsoever in regards to their alleged ancient progenitors, pay a visit to our records(which have recorded other nations as well, not just themselves), and thus gain knowledge to a people that otherwise would have been not just alien to them, but totally and utterly unknown; various Slavic people's have a record of doing so, and that has resulted to the Bulgarian-Thracian Connection, previously the Macedonian Connection for the Bulgarians, now their closest cousins(Skopjians) are prominent to claiming Macedonianess, the Croats and the Illyrians, now the Albanians and the Illyrians, and Epirotans.

And since the Ellines always distinguished between one another, nowadays its very easy to claim the various and diverse Ellines as different people, as all Ellinika archeia that exist mention everybody by city and not by nation, but as in mathematics, when one is dealing with formulas that contain constants, in order to solve the problem one has to view, the tables on the back of the book, similarly when one is reading Pausanias, who mentions every single Ellinike pole by its name, next to Illyrian cities by their name, and somewhere around the word Ellada, results to major confusion, because Pausanias and every other Ellinikos istoriographos considers, the nations that the people he mentions belong to; as granted, due to the geneological trees, which were common knowledge of the era; Indeed, one has to go to the "tables", and see who is who..and who is not who. The geneologika dendra, of Homer, Hesiod, Orpheus, Hellanikus and Plutarch..in order of appearance(time) as well, also the geneological trees are not fixed, Hesiods, is different than Orpheus, Orpheus is more uptodate than both Hesiod and Homer, cause tribes assimilated to others, other vanished, similarly Hellanikus more updated...and so on, there was indeed an update every once in a while, and depending the text one is reading, one has to view the respective "table". This has troubled a lot, the simplistic Westerners in understanding who is who, and since politics are always in the game due to geographical approximations, there has been and logically so, a loss in translation. And that is how cultural chauvinism, abnoxiosism, is thus created.

[Bagatur]

The Thracians hardly had an influence even on the first Bulgarian state because they were already romanized and probably lost most of their unique culture already.

But the fact is that they lived in these lands and probably make up a part of todays population so why not honour them in some way? Of course it's stupid to call them Bulgarians and most people don't do that anyway so don't generalize.

[olvios]

It was the statement of the documentary that annoyed and some declarations by bulgarian archaeologists in the recent past.

[olvios]

Bulgaria is a member of the EU but communist propaganda turned to nationalism is carrying on.Blood is thicker than water as Fyrom is mostly Bulgarians.But lets laugh a bit.

http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/2007/08/17/coin-that-confirm-is-orpheus-bulgarian/
(http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/2007/08/17/coin-that-confirm-is-orpheus-bulgarian/)
the title is more than enough for some laughs

Coin that confirm is Orpheus BulgarianLOL:blink::blink:
http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/coin_orpheus.jpg

Unique coin with the face of the Rome’s emperor Caracalla and Orpheus at the other side holding tunic is one of the hottest topic, because of the fact that she confirm the theory that Orpheus is Bulgarian. He is standing on caves that are symbolizing the Rhodopes and is performing with lyre, propped up on his left knee. This coin has been found by treasure-hunter 18 years ago, but subsequently has been redempted by famous businessman, who gave it to Nikolai Ovcharov’s archaeological expedition, that is working up on the studies at the Thracian settlement near the village of Tatul. As Nikolai Ovcharov says, this bronze coin confirm that Orpheus has Bulgarian and not Greek provenance. The fact that this coin has been mint at Philipopolis (nowadays Plovdiv) is proof that till the Roman epoch Orpheus has been one of the divinities of the city and the near centers in the eastern Rhodopes. There is only one coin like this. The rare copies are from the time of emperors Antoninus Pius, Geta and Caracalla. At these from Pii and Geta, Orpheus is surrounded from listening to his music animals, when at the coins from Caracalla the musician is siting on cave, symbolizing the Rhodopes.
Professor Ovcharov explain the parentage of the coin with the authorization on behalf of Rome at 2-3 century of the submissive cities to stamp their own coins. At one of the faces is binding force to be placed the effigy of the emperor, at the other- image of representative local cult. In this way from the Philipopolis mint of coins are observed a number of local cults- the one of the inclined river god Hebrus up on caves, which are the Rhodopes, and often aside of him is the goddess of the city with scepter. That emperor Antoninus Pius’s coins are some of the most interesting ones- they are presenting herself goddess Rhodopa, marked with name. She is presenting beautiful woman, siting on cave, that is symbolizing the great mountain. At her hands she is holding the flower, as known as “Haberlea Rhodopensis” - the Orpheus’s flower. Often on the coins are given local landmarks - various temples, and very often are shown the two most famous ones, Apollon and Hermes among to their statues at full size.

Note that Caracalla (April 4, 186 – April 8, 217),AD of course but even if it was BC it was irrelevant.

No logic or sense........what do you think?

[Demetrius Doukas]

Did you see the inscription on this site "Discover The Ancient Bulgaria", O No ridiculous.................more proper would be - Discover the Ancient Civilizations before the upcoming of the Bulgarians" :) unfortunately in Bulgaria you must search with a magnifying glass to find proper explanations on ancient history...............