Forced name change Communist Balkan States

[olvios]

During the era were the blight of communism reigned over Albania,Skopia,Bulgaria and Rumania many were forced to change their names to fit the designs of the twisted communist tyrants.Gather all data here.

[olvios]

ALBANIA

They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 196 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.

[TirAlb]

How many greeks were called Aristotelis 200 years ago?

[olvios]

Stay on topic.Greeks retained Greek names without stop from antiquity till today and they weren't a communist state ever.

[Draco]

How many greeks were called Aristotelis 200 years ago?
Not many Greeks are called Aristotelis today! If there are, you can probably count them on the fingers of one hand. How many Albanians are called Ilir today though and was that name used 200 years ago? :laugh:

[TirAlb]

Stay on topic.Greeks retained Greek names without stop from antiquity till today and they weren't a communist state ever.

Revisionism of history isn't a communist phenomenon,it started with south slavs claiming themselves illyrians,greeks claiming everything as greek,i would say it was typical for states moving their first steps.
So the fact that this revisionistic stage coincided with communism in countries like Albania or Fyrom is quite insignificant.

[TirAlb]

Not many Greeks are called Aristotelis today! If there are, you can probably count them on the fingers of one hand. How many Albanians are called Ilir today though and was that name used 200 years ago? :laugh:

a lot! :)

[olvios]

The topic title is clear and you are trying to shift to other topics you can start a new one and move attention elsewhere.Fact remains your Illyrian names claim is destroyed.

[Amarantos]

How many greeks were called Aristotelis 200 years ago?

Aristotelis Valaoritis, born on 1824 in Lefkada with Epirotan origin. Do some research on him.

[TirAlb]

Aristotelis Valaoritis, born on 1824 in Lefkada with Epirotan origin. Do some research on him.

I did,but however you just confirmed my "theory",actually i said 200years on purpose,and at 1824 the greek nationalist machine was already working hard.
But let stop ruining olvios's topic further.

[olvios]

You can be provided with Greek names from antiquity up to today but your self purpose to ruin the thread is accomplished.Go spamyourself
---------------------------------------------------------
ALBANIA

They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.

[Amarantos]

I did,but however you just confirmed my "theory",actually i said 200years on purpose,and at 1824 the greek nationalist machine was already working hard.
But let stop ruining olvios's topic further.


What "nationalist machine" :laugh: Well on 1824 the revolution was still ongoing. I had predicted your "theory" and the example was aimed for the reason forementioned and for the fact that Valaoritis is very well known for his epirotan origins and for his efforts for the union of the Ionian Islands with Greece. Not all is explained with the logic of the communist propaganda that ravaged the albanian or the scopian way of thinking according to which first you establish the state and then you start a "nationalist machine".

[TirAlb]

What "nationalist machine" :laugh: Well on 1824 the revolution was still ongoing. I had predicted your "theory" and the example was aimed for the reason forementioned and for the fact that Valaoritis is very well known for his epirotan origins and for his efforts for the union of the Ionian Islands with Greece. Not all is explained with the logic of the communist propaganda that ravaged the albanian or the scopian way of thinking according to which first you establish the state and then you start a "nationalist machine".

The revolution is just the last step,to feed it you need years an years of nationalist(in case of nationalist revolution),religious or ideologic propaganda.So the "nationalist machine" machine was working long time before the Greek revolution started.
Foreign people that don't know nothing or however not enough about communism look at it like an exotic illness to blame for everything.You have to know that communism is the most Internationalist and anti-nationalits ideology ever existed.

[olvios]

Stop spamming.Also communism is fascism at its best and it butchered people even more for more nationalistic reasons than even that of the nazis.

[olvios]

You can be provided with Greek names from antiquity up to today but your self purpose to ruin the thread is accomplished.Go spamyourself
---------------------------------------------------------
ALBANIA

They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.

[Tsontos]

How many greeks were called Aristotelis 200 years ago?

You are right that this sort of name would be very rare (though not non-existant) among the Christian Greeks before the nationalist enlightenment of the 18th century. However Greek Christians/ Byzantines/ medieval Greeks (whatever you want to call them) still retained manyancient names whether because they belonged to a saint or not.

What olvios is saying is that Albanians on the other hand had conscious linguistic or otherwise connection with Illyrian names and would not have known what an Illyrian name was. And this is not because of a lack of education or dominance of Turkish yoke but simply because the connection between Albanians and Illyrians has not bee a concious one for 2000 years!

[TirAlb]

What olvios is saying is that Albanians on the other hand had conscious linguistic or otherwise connection with Illyrian names and would not have known what an Illyrian name was. And this is not because of a lack of education or dominance of Turkish yoke but simply because the connection between Albanians and Illyrians has not bee a concious one for 2000 years!

Voulgaroktonos,i understod very well what olvios is doing,a hole in the water,thats all!
Illyrian names were never imposed they were just in fashiong during the 60s in Albania.And by the way the albanian link with illyrians through their names is not based on these recent trends,but it was noted by the western scholars that traveled albania around 1700-1800.

[Tsontos]

Remember that in this period 1700-1800 Western "scholars" and travellers would say the same thing about first names in Croatia and Serbia (that they were of Illyrian origin)! Very little was known about the Illyrian language, not least first names!

[olvios]

Not only you are trolling but flaming as well.These are facts as are those below.
----------------
ALBANIA

They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.

[Tsontos]

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated


ahh good old historical material marxists, always dibbing and dabbing with nationalisms they are meant to oppose

[TirAlb]

Ok im going to give my contribute to this topic!

"It had been clearly indicated by J.E. Thunmann, back in 1774, that
the Albanians alone could possibly be considered as the descendants
of the Illyrians. Their origin had been suggested even before (in a
letter) by the philosopher Leibniz.
Aside from pointing out historical data, Thunmann also remarked that
certain Illyrian names are still used by Albanians: Dasios = Dash;
Dida = Dede; Bardhylis = Bardhe, etc. A. Boue, who from 1836 to 1838
journeyed across the Balkans accompanied by various experts,
subscribed to Thunmann's theory. J.G. von Hahn exposed the same view
in his learned work Albanesische Studien (Jena, 1853) basing his
research on ethnography, history and linguistics."
The Albanians in Yugoslavia in light of historical documents By Dr. SAFETE.S. JUKA

[olvios]

The striking analogies between Albanian and Rumanian were already pointed out by Thunmann without prompting him to attribute the Albanians a Thracian origin. Special attention was accorded to these analogies by E. Çabej (see in particular "Rumanischalbanische Lehnbeziehungen," Revue Internationale des Etudes Balkaniques, II 1936, pp. 172-184 and "Betrachtungen uber die rumanisch — albanisehen Sprachbeziehungen," Revue de linguistique, 1965 X pp. 101-115).

Well well.......he is reliable....your crappy source as well Illyrians.org - Did you know? (http://www.illyrians.org/didyouknow.html)

Fact remains that communists added name lists with imaginary names.

[TirAlb]

The striking analogies between Albanian and Rumanian were already pointed out by Thunmann without prompting him to attribute the Albanians a Thracian origin. Special attention was accorded to these analogies by E. Çabej (see in particular "Rumanischalbanische Lehnbeziehungen," Revue Internationale des Etudes Balkaniques, II 1936, pp. 172-184 and "Betrachtungen uber die rumanisch — albanisehen Sprachbeziehungen," Revue de linguistique, 1965 X pp. 101-115).

Well well.......he is reliable....your crappy source as well Illyrians.org - Did you know? (http://www.illyrians.org/didyouknow.html)

Fact remains that communists added name lists with imaginary names.

Indeed my crappy source was this (http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9809a&L=albanian&P=84).
Illyrians and Thracians influenced eachother!
The fact that we have common words with Rumanian is just another proof of our autochthony.

[olvios]

ALBANIAN archives -- September 1998, week 1 (#1) (http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9809a&L=albanian&P=84)
Opinions expressed on ALBANIAN do NOT necessarily reflect the views of the
owner, co-owners and/or moderators, nor any of their host institutions.

That is a forum.

[olvios]

the original J.E. Thunmann is required not some supposed third party from "Dr. SAFETE.S. JUKA" sent to an university forum.

Still doesnt change the fact that Illyrian names were added with lists during communism.

[olvios]

At the end of the forum you posted look!!!! You should get serious.The primary source still is the idiotic illyrians.org and alike....

"-------------------- Continued --------------------------------

__________________________________________________ ________________________
What have we done today for Kosova?!"

[TirAlb]

Whats the point of the topic just the fact that names werechanged during communist regimes or that this was used as a proof to link albanians with illyrians!
Well both are untrue!

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.)

Even from this text is easy to understand that we are speaking about recomandations of proper names for the new generations and not about a forced change of old generations names.So at least the tittle of the topic is wrong.And the pourpouse of that policy was the creation of an Atheist mentality,so the word "pagan" not "supposed Illyrian" is the key to understand the above quotation.


I brought you a quote from Thunmann:

"certain Illyrian names are still used by Albanians: Dasios = Dash;
Dida = Dede; Bardhylis = Bardhe, etc."

I took it from Syka,as you brought here a quote from Logoreci quoted from Vickers,fair enough no?

[olvios]

Not fair enough.Show me the primary source as to know it is not something concocted recenlty.And the fact that communism added names to befit its nationalistic aspirations is factual.They filled you with names to alter the religious and historical charakter you had.

The fact that names were added means so you understand it that all and any names you have the claim to be illyrian today dont matter today when research is done unless a name as such has been recorded in the past and accepted widely as of Illyrian origin.

Also note that scientists like Wilkes and others turn to certain Vlachs and Slavic populations and clearly point out that they are Illyrians.Read the book and any recent non-balkan(not Greek,albanian,skopian,bulgarian,romanian...) writer that is a historian on the issue.

[TirAlb]

Not fair enough.Show me the primary source as to know it is not something concocted recenlty.And the fact that communism added names to befit its nationalistic aspirations is factual.They filled you with names to alter the religious and historical charakter you had.
Alas!Communists had no nationalist aspiration!Yes they altered our Religious character maybe,but not our historical for sure!But don't blame communism for everything,the expression "The Faith of Albanians Is Albanism" is 150 years old!



The fact that names were added means so you understand it that all and any names you have the claim to be illyrian today dont matter today when research is done unless a name as such has been recorded in the past and accepted widely as of Illyrian origin.
I doubt that in the past there were illyrians called,Dardan,Alban,Enkelejd,Taulant and so on also is very difficult(probably impossible) to find today Albanians called Albanian or Shqiptar.So this names was never used as historical proofs.But i repeat this names were never imposed,and were just a little part of the totaly amount of names suggested to "replace",the old religious ones.Their pourpouse was to erase the religious identity and not to create a new illyrian one.The center of the albanian communist historiography was their war against nazi-fashism and they never cared to much of our illyrian past.



Also note that scientists like Wilkes and others turn to certain Vlachs and Slavic populations and clearly point out that they are Illyrians.Read the book and any recent non-balkan(not Greek,albanian,skopian,bulgarian,romanian...) writer that is a historian on the issue.
Slavs and Vlachs are illyrians as Fyroms are Macedonians!

[olvios]

Alas!Communists had no nationalist aspiration!Yes they altered our Religious character maybe,but not our historical for sure!But don't blame communism for everything,the expression "The Faith of Albanians Is Albanism" is 150 years old!



I doubt that in the past there were illyrians called,Dardan,Alban,Enkelejd,Taulant and so on also is very difficult(probably impossible) to find today Albanians called Albanian or Shqiptar.So this names was never used as historical proofs.But i repeat this names were never imposed,and were just a little part of the totaly amount of names suggested to "replace",the old religious ones.Their pourpouse was to erase the religious identity and not to create a new illyrian one.The center of the albanian communist historiography was their war against nazi-fashism and they never cared to much of our illyrian past.



Slavs and Vlachs are illyrians as Fyroms are Macedonians!

Communism in albania and 99,9 percent of the planet is ultranationalistic.If you are taking drugs quit.Names were added and illyrian along with and blatant moronic affort to "steal" Greek(Epirus,Macedon....) history that was attacked and tried to be claimed.They did everything with no regrets to create a fantastic past.And too bad for you but inspite of what you "believe" out of your country and your mind the above i stated apply.Reasearchers know them and that is why you dont accomplish anything.And that place is reality.

http://www.amazon.com/Illyrians-Peoples-Europe-John-Wilkes/dp/0631198075/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195997182&sr=8-1
Read wilkes and start crying.You dont have anything to do with even Illyria let alone Epirus and Macedon.

[olvios]

The below applies and is known.You wont get even Illyrian ancestry.

---------------------------------------------
On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.

[TirAlb]

Communism in albania and 99,9 percent of the planet is ultranationalistic.
No!
If you are taking drugs quit.
thanks for your advice!

Names were added and illyrian along with and blatant moronic affort to "steal" Greek(Epirus,Macedon....) history that was attacked and tried to be claimed.They did everything with no regrets to create a fantastic past.And too bad for you but inspite of what you "believe" out of your country and your mind the above i stated apply.Reasearchers know them and that is why you dont accomplish anything.And that place is reality.

Thats what you believe,and i "respect" your opinion!

Amazon.com: The Illyrians (The Peoples of Europe): Books: John Wilkes (http://www.amazon.com/Illyrians-Peoples-Europe-John-Wilkes/dp/0631198075/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195997182&sr=8-1)

Read wilkes and start crying.You dont have anything to do with even Illyria let alone Epirus and Macedon.
Here you have a very relaxed rewiev of that book from Neritan Ceka(alb. archeologist),he is not crying so why should i?

Welcome to Frosina.org :: An Albanian Immigrant and Cultural Resource (http://www.frosina.org/culturehistory/reviews.asp?id=122)

[olvios]

You can insist all you want but its the international community that matters not you or me.

[TirAlb]

You can insist all you want but its the international community that matters not you or me.

At least you don't have EGO problems!

[Morphesau]

edit.

[olvios]

Wait he hasnt finished on this one yet nor the history of communism and the reality of their past.

---------------------------------------------
On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.

[Morphesau]

Ok Olvios. Signomi.

[TirAlb]

Why did you edited those quotes?!

The first is Ardian Vebiu,an intellectual for sure,but you can not use his quotes against the albanian illyrian claim.He is againts any form of Balkan nationalism and,for sur he will tell you that you are not greek and fyroms not macedonians or even bulgarians aswell.

However all this characters are a product of the communist anti nationalist spirit,that raised them!
Ill never heard about the two last names!

[olvios]

Why did you edited those quotes?!

The first is Ardian Vebiu,an intellectual for sure,but you can not use his quotes against the albanian illyrian claim.He is againts any form of Balkan nationalism and,for sur he will tell you that you are not greek and fyroms not macedonians or even bulgarians aswell.

However all this characters are a product of the communist anti nationalist spirit,that raised them!
Ill never heard about the two last names!

Its well recorded that albanian communism was ultranationalistic.:nono:
On Ardian Vebiu- the bolded above - you are just vainly trying to save your position.
The rest.You never heard them-doesnt matter:rolleyes:

The illyrian name adding and other historical discrepancies are well know and violent acts against Epirots in the physical and mental sense.

[TirAlb]

Its well recorded that albanian communism was ultranationalistic.:nono:

I think that i know more than you on the issue.
.....................
On Ardian Vebiu- the bolded above - you are just vainly trying to save your position.
The rest.You never heard them-doesnt matter:rolleyes:

Vebiu is exactly what i said in my previous post!
Sorry,but i never heard about the famous "albanian" schoolar DR resul kapllan ...vich
...................
The illyrian name adding and other historical discrepancies are well know and violent acts against Epirots in the physical and mental sense.

Yes i agree and the last violent act against them was the expultion of cams!

[olvios]

Epirotes are Greek and the Chams were working with the Nazis.The topic is the names.

[olvios]

ALBANIA

They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.

[Cadmus]

Also note that scientists like Wilkes and others turn to certain Vlachs and Slavic populations and clearly point out that they are Illyrians

This result is highly problematic because 'they"might be the Vucedols remnants or some other tribes like the Scordisci that lived in the same area...

The Vlachs as well as Montenegrians or Bosnians and some Serbians are supposed to be descendants of the Illyrians is also highly questionable.

I think there was alarge Celtic group that inhabited the area ,changing into many different sub-tribes like the Illyrians...but where exactly did they end up or were turned into??

Fact is Albania has some pretty inaccesable places that formed a large barriere for many centuries same like the Montenegrians "Sandzak"types in the high mountains...as in comparance with easy accesible places on the planes that Serbia and Bosnia have to offer...

Point is i personally would rule out the Serbs and Bosnians as having a Illyrian genepool but instead i would favour certainly the Montenegrians and some backward living mountainus Albanian peoples as possible Illyrian ancestrians..

[olvios]

If they are "celtics" or "vucedols" they certainly are Illyrian to a great percent.If the chances of the first 2 are 10% and 1% the Illlyrian percent must be gargantuan.Vucedols are prehistoric and Celts migrated in small numbers.Scordisci are considered to have become full Celts.

To get back on topic...this happened
ALBANIA

They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.
---------------------------------------------
And even if they have any illyrian element remaining they totally ruined chances for proper research and any reliability of any reasearch.

[TirAlb]

Why don't you just put this miranda vickers quote directly in your signature so you will not waste your time copying and pasting it all the time?

ah sorry........


back on topic:
ALBANIA

They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.

[olvios]

I will! And since i got no answers other than evasion on the event i get it!