American recognition was a ploy to trick the skopjians

[Tsontos]

that is the opinion put forward by this very long but very insightful article. Apparently Greece had nothing to do with it but hehehe. Anyway it talks about how the recognition was a ploy to distract and discourage people from voting for a referendum the next day which would stop a law granting greater concessions to the albanians. the author is of the opinion that america and the EU are using albania as a way of gaining more influence over the balkans to further cut down the Russian influcence


http://www.antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=3973

[Tsontos]

For Almond, the most peculiar thing is how the Macedonians were tricked by America's name recognition overture. He points out how Macedonia should avoid ruining its good relations with top investor and neighbor Greece, while also pondering why for Macedonia, external validation should be so necessary. "In all my travels," he says, "I've never heard anyone call the country anything but Macedonia. So why should it bother them that the inner workings of the EU or UN call them FYROM? If you have to count on foreigners to give you a name, or a history, I mean…."

[Nikos]

This is not something new. This was the official explanation of the white house on why did they recognize Macedonia. And I believe they very well did.

The question is where Greece, the biggest investor in Macedonia, was when the referendum was being held.
We were spectators of things that were happening 50 klm north of Thessaloniki, where a lot of money of Greek tax payers is invested, and we were unable to play the even most simple role to ensure our interests.

This is the result of the name dispute. It practically keeps us off the facts in an area of our huge strategic interest.

Why are you bothering us with such kafeneio analysises?

[Amarantos]

We were spectators of things that were happening 50 klm north of Thessaloniki


50????:blink: :blink: :blink:


where a lot of money of Greek tax payers is invested, and we were unable to play the even most simple role to ensure our interests.?


any proposals?
Or maybe you mean we should have supported the albanian claims regarding the fyromian referendum?

This is the result of the name dispute. It practically keeps us off the facts in an area of our huge strategic interest.

i totally agree with you.THEY SHOULD CUT THE BULLSHIT,AND FIND A NAME THAT RAPPRESENTS THEIR COUNTRY ,SO WE CAN ALL GO IN PEACE.

[Nikos]

The border between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia is half an hour drive from the outskirts of Thessaloniki. 50-60 klms to say.
Open a map.

[Amarantos]

you're right on the distance between Greece and fyrom,there's no need you get upset though!

[akritas]

Amarantos the Nikos is upset because confuse the Macedonia and the FYROM.

[Nikos]

No I am not upset.

And of course I am not confused

[Makedonia25]

This is not something new. This was the official explanation of the white house on why did they recognize Macedonia. And I believe they very well did.

The question is where Greece, the biggest investor in Macedonia, was when the referendum was being held.
We were spectators of things that were happening 50 klm north of Thessaloniki, where a lot of money of Greek tax payers is invested, and we were unable to play the even most simple role to ensure our interests.

This is the result of the name dispute. It practically keeps us off the facts in an area of our huge strategic interest.

Why are you bothering us with such kafeneio analysises?

Maybe because Greece is the number 1 investor in FYROM, and one day, just like the Jews done to the Palestinians, we will own everything, so we might as well call it what we want... I for one, suggest we make it part of our Macedonia and thus a part of Greece... Hmm, maybe I should start drawing up maps of a Greater Greece like Stefov and his buddies are circulating maps of a Greater FYROM??? Any comments??? :) :clapping: :worshippy :clap2: :thumbs: :lol:

[Nikos]

Buddy there is a misunderstanding: I don't want us to do to them the same with what the Israelis do to the Palestinians.:mad:

[Tsontos]

No I am not upset.

And of course I am not confused

you are the most confused person to ever be on a forum

[Nikos]

You are the confused. This balkananalysis.com is pro-Macedonian site and
the article in the antiwar.com that you introduce as a good quote is written by a balkananalysis.com admin.
It is listed in all the macedonian propagandistic sites and never to Greek ones.
Try Maknews, see on the right coloumn: http://www.maknews.com/

[Makedonia25]

Buddy there is a misunderstanding: I don't want us to do to them the same with what the Israelis do to the Palestinians.:mad:

Well, buddy, if they are claiming our land, how about we claim theirs??? Fair is fair isnt it??? :lol:

Now you see my point... right? :thumbs:

[Tsontos]

You are the confused. This balkananalysis.com is pro-Macedonian site and
the article in the antiwar.com that you introduce as a good quote is written by a balkananalysis.com admin.
It is listed in all the macedonian propagandistic sites and never to Greek ones.
Try Maknews, see on the right coloumn: http://www.maknews.com/

anti-war.com analysis varies depending on the author and source, nonetheless its good reading.


http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=769

The locus of Albanian ultra-nationalism has long been the two-pronged demand for a separate Albanian-language university and ethnic quotas in the Macedonian civil serve, with the former serving as a transmission belt for the latter. But the Macedonian government – a coalition including the Albanian Democratic Party – has resisted this demand, rightly fearing the atomization of their country. After all, the classification of "Macedonian" as a separate language, unique to itself, like English French, and German, is quite a stretch: it is more like a regional dialect, one with Serbo-Croatian and Bulgarian influences (both of which, like Macedonian, are written in the Cyrillic alphabet). Indeed, as far as the Bulgarians are concerned, there is no such language as "Macedonian," but only a dialect of Bulgarian: the Serbo-Croatian speakers in Macedonia proper hold a similar view. The fragility of this linguistic nationalism is, furthermore, exacerbated by the historical reality that no such country as "Macedonia" has had a separate existence since the days of Alexander the Great: its resurrection by Tito and the Yugoslav Communists was merely a crude attempt to intervene on the Communist side in the Greek civil war. This, however, has not deterred "Macedonian" nationalists from determinedly averring their linguistic and cultural uniqueness, and fiercely defending their (largely imaginary) national identity. Against the genuine cultural chauvinism of the Albanian fanatics, however, the faux nationalism of the "Macedonians" is a weak reed bending in a strong wind.





My problem with you is that your not Greek

[Morphesau]

Maybe because Greece is the number 1 investor in FYROM, and one day, just like the Jews done to the Palestinians, we will own everything, so we might as well call it what we want... I for one, suggest we make it part of our Macedonia and thus a part of Greece... Hmm, maybe I should start drawing up maps of a Greater Greece like Stefov and his buddies are circulating maps of a Greater FYROM??? Any comments??? :) :clapping: :worshippy :clap2: :thumbs: :lol:

Well said!!! :thumbs:

Greece is indeed No1 investor to fyrom, shall Greece pull out what will Skopia do? time for them to sit on the negotiation tables, and meet Greece's terms of protecting her History & culture which is rightfully hers by fact. This isn't new BigTakis "who i have high respect for you" i have some info that the Americans started admitting of having made a blunder recognising them as Macedonia "sick" will try and find it!!! again.

Makedonia25 why not us start planing to take over what is rightfully ours ? :) why does hellas just sit back and do nothing? :mad:

[Spartan]

For more on what Morphesau wrote.

I posted this on an other topic, but here it is again.

It is from the Woodrow Wilson center under the SOUTHEAS EUROPE PROJECT.

It has info on all the Balkan countries.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?topic_id=109941&fuseaction=topics.documents

Look under FYROM!

"November 5, 2004
Washington Recognizes Country's Name as Republic of Macedonia
Washington, D.C. - The United States unilaterally recognized the name "Republic of Macedonia," a decision timed as a show of support for the Skopje government just four days before a critical November 7 referendum called for by opposition nationalists, in which Macedonians will decide whether to overturn or implement a decentralization law passed by parliament in August.
The United States is concerned that derailment of the law, which gives ethnic Albanians greater representation at the municipal level, could trigger civil unrest among ethnic Albanians in the country, located just south of Serbia's Kosovo province.
Implementation of the legislation would be the final step in carrying out all the provisions of the 2001 Ohrid peace agreement, brokered by U.S. and EU mediators, which ended a seven-month conflict between ethnic Albanian guerrillas and government security forces. (See Country Updates, F.Y.R. Macedonia, November 5, 2004, "NATO, EU Closely Monitor Political Referendum.")
Macedonian President Branko Crvenkovski hailed Washington's decision as a "great day" for the country, adding that "the Republic of Macedonia is strongly determined to continue to build friendly and good-neighborly relations" with Greece.
The U.S. decision drew a sharp rebuke from Athens, which had agreed to accelerate negotiations with the Skopje government to arrive at a mutually acceptable alternative to the name "Republic of Macedonia." Greek Foreign Minister Petros Molyviatis summoned U.S. Ambassador to Greece Thomas Miller to the Foreign Ministry to lodge a formal complaint over the matter and told him that Washington's decision would result in "multiple negative consequences." Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis said, "The possibility of FYROM [the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia] acceding to the EU and NATO is not contemplated without a mutually agreed solution" on the name issue. In a congratulatory message to President Bush concerning his re-election, Greek President Costis Stephanopoulos noted that Washington's decision had "caused the Greek people deep disappointment."
U.S. State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said Washington had decided to grant recognition to the country's constitutional name in support of Skopje's efforts to implement the decentralization legislation. This recognition, he said, would "underscore the U.S. commitment to a permanent, multi-ethnic, democratic Macedonian state within its existing borders," which would be advanced by the Ohrid agreement, "the key to Macedonia's future." Boucher also stated that, by supporting the decentralization plan, Washington wanted to move the country closer to NATO and EU membership. "We're trying to show that the path that the government has followed brings stability," both internally and in the region, he said.
"Macedonia is an important and steadfast partner of the United States in the global war on terrorism, contributing troops to coalition efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan," Boucher asserted, adding that the country's "success" was in the interests of its neighbors and of Washington. He said the U.S. decision concerning the country's name was made "without prejudice to the negotiations [between Athens and Skopje] under U.N. auspices" on the name issue, noting that Washington hoped these talks would reach "a speedy and mutually agreeable conclusion."
On November 3, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell signed off on the recognition decision, which Boucher said had been under discussion within Washington "for a long time." The same day, Ambassador Miller informed the Greek Foreign Ministry of the decision, followed by a call to Molyviatis by Powell on November 4. The U.S. ambassador in Skopje, Lawrence Butler, also met with President Crvenkovski on November 4 to inform him of the decision. That day the Greek public learned of the news through the media before the Greek or U.S. governments had announced it publicly, creating a firestorm among the people of Greece. Crvenkovski announced the decision in a broadcast on November 4 after news reports on the matter swept Greece.
Both Boucher and Greek Foreign Ministry spokesman George Koumoutsakos stated that Powell had telephoned Molyviatis to assure him "that the decision is not a turn against Greece and is not linked to the U.S. elections."
Boucher stated that Washington had previously contacted the European Union to inform it of the forthcoming decision. Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende of the Netherlands, which currently holds the EU rotating presidency, said the European Union was not planning to follow Washington's lead in recognizing the name "Republic of Macedonia." He said, "The European Union, at this moment, has a position that the official name is the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and I think, for the time being, we can use this name, but we will look into the consequences."
On October 28, the lower house of the German parliament adopted a resolution calling on the German government to urge the adoption of the name "Republic of Macedonia" within the European Union, citing Skopje's "significant progress on the path towards political stability and further approximation towards the European Union." During a visit by German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder to Skopje on November 2, Macedonian Prime Minister Hari Kostov thanked Germany's lower house for passing the resolution. Schroeder stated that "the distinction of powers exists in Germany by which parliament is responsible for legislation, while the exercising of foreign policy belongs to the duties of the government." He added, "Of course, we take the opinion of parliament into serious consideration."
Since 1991, Greece has objected to the adoption of the name "Republic of Macedonia" by the country that emerged through the break-up of Yugoslavia, maintaining that it referred to a regional province in northern Greece and that its use by Skopje had implied historical and territorial claims on Greek Macedonian territory as recently as the 1940s. An interim agreement signed by the Macedonian and Greek governments under the auspices of the United Nations on September 13, 1995, provided a framework for resolving the name issue by conducting discussions to find a mutually acceptable name. In early 1994, Greece imposed an economic embargo on the country that ended in October 1995.
Recognizing the differences between Athens and Skopje over the name, the United Nations admitted the country into its ranks in 1993 under a provisional name, the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)," through a Security Council resolution. The United States has officially referred to the country as FYROM since then.
On October 24, both Molyviatis and Macedonian Foreign Minister Ilinka Mitreva, following talks in Skopje, agreed that both countries wanted to intensify the pace of bilateral negotiations on resolution of the name issue under the auspices of the U.N. Mitreva described the issue as one of "paramount national interest." Greece is the largest investor in the country."



"October 1, 2004
Skopje, Athens Ready to Intensify Talks on Name Issue
Washington, D.C. - Officials from Skopje and Athens, in consultations with Ambassador Matthew Nimetz, Special Representative of the U.N. Secretary General, in recent weeks, have indicated that F.Y.R. Macedonia and Greece would like to intensify discussions on the resolution of the name issue between the two countries, which remains the only significant bilateral difference between them.
An interest in moving in this direction was expressed by Greek Deputy Foreign Minister Yiannis Valinakis in talks with Amb. Nimetz on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly meeting in New York. In addition, Macedonian Foreign Minister Ilinka Mitreva and Greek Foreign Minister Petros Molyviatis, meeting at the U.N., also said they were ready to proceed with discussions.
Representatives from both countries have met four times a year in New York to discuss the name issue under the mediation of Amb. Nimetz through 2003. In 2004, only one meeting has taken place, early in the year, owing to events such as the death of Macedonian President Boris Trajkovski in February and subsequent elections in the country, Greece's March parliamentary elections and hosting of the summer Olympics, and the April referendum on the Annan plan for the reunification of Cyprus.
An interim agreement signed by the Macedonian and Greek governments under the auspices of the United Nations on September 13, 1995, provided a framework for resolving the name issue by conducting discussions to find a mutually acceptable name for Greece's northern neighbor.
Greece objected to the adoption of the name "Macedonia" by the country that emerged in 1991 to its north following the dissolution of Yugoslavia, maintaining that the name referred to a province in northern Greece and that its use by Skopje implied historical and territorial claims by the Macedonian government.
Recognizing the differences between Athens and Skopje over the name, the United Nations admitted Greece's northern neighbor into its ranks in 1993 under a provisional name, the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)," through a Security Council resolution.
Greece and F.Y.R. Macedonia have good relations, with Greece having expressed support for Skopje's application to join the European Union, submitted in March. Greece is F.Y.R. Macedonia's largest trading partner. (See Country Updates, F.Y.R. Macedonia, September 20, 2002, "Skopje, Athens Allow Interim Agreement on Name Issue to Remain in Force.")

[Makedonia25]

Well said!!! :thumbs:

Greece is indeed No1 investor to fyrom, shall Greece pull out what will Skopia do? time for them to sit on the negotiation tables, and meet Greece's terms of protecting her History & culture which is rightfully hers by fact. This isn't new BigTakis "who i have high respect for you" i have some info that the Americans started admitting of having made a blunder recognising them as Macedonia "sick" will try and find it!!! again.

Makedonia25 why not us start planing to take over what is rightfully ours ? :) why does hellas just sit back and do nothing? :mad:

Because we are too nice, as we have always been, well at least since christianity was introduced to us.. Nothing against christianity here, but as a fact we were the most powerful before christianity, and after it we have resorted to being nice - and look where thats gotten us! :nono:

[Morphesau]

Better then I had Spartan!!! And very resourceful well done Spartan! :thumbs:

Makedonia25 you’re absolutely correct we are indeed too friendly. Or are we? It’s a fact the Greeks living there would fight to the very end, I know most people abroad would such as me. If it's war they want "they the Slav / Bulgarians are the aggressors" by means of attempting to steal our history, so war it is. Now back to what my point is, are we too friendly? Well I see two reasons from my observations, Greece's affairs are being interfered by foreign powers, such the U.S, and Greece wants no trouble brewing due to the fact we are in the middle of our enemies, Turkey on the right side, Albania on the left, Slavs / Bulgarians on top. It’s time Greece wakes up to the fact we are more powerfull then most people think, why not claim back what the Slavs / Bulgarians took from us "some parts of makedonia we want it back" also Epirus and the rest of Thrace….

Excuse my long delay, am back.