The Georgios Kastriotis (Skentermpeis)

GEoRGiOS KASTRioTIS
the named SKENTERMPEIS.
ALBANIAN or GREEK?

- ORIGIN -

Grandfather of his was Konstatninos Kastriotis (+ 1390), sovereign of Imathia and Kastoria (hence the name Kastoriotis, Kastrjotis). Son of Konstantinos was Ioannis Kastriotis, the sovereign of Krougias (Kroias), with spouse his Serb wife Voisava. They brought in the life 9 children: 5 daughters and 4 sons, with last one in the line (1404) the Georgios Kastriotis.

- UPBRINGING - DEVELOPMENT -
In the years of sultan Moura't the B (1421-1451) he is compelled his father Ioannis, in order to he maintains the authority in Krougja, he delivers as their hostages his 4 sons in this, which will be brought up at the Turkish habits in the Sultan court of Adrianoypolis . There, though Christians, they are converted to Islam . Moyua't B appreciating the talents of Georgios (beauty, robustness, bravery) trains him with the successor of throne, later Mohamed the B the Conqueror of Constantinople the Sultan admiring his intrepidity, to him lent the Turkish name "Skendermpei", that in the Greek means "Alexandros ruler or Great Alexandros".
The recollection of however Krougia, the information of death of his father first and then his mother, did not leave him quiet. With the first opportunity he flees from the Turkish Army and retakes the christian name Georgjos. He marries the daughter of Arianitou Androniki Komnini , and in 1443 declares the revolution against the Turk conqueror. He releases Krougja with his 300 lads and immediately enters in her cathedral Temple and chants himself and his warriors Doxologia (thanks & glory hymn) to God. He orders to raise in all the castles the bicipital eagle with background purple as his emblem, that was, what other despite, the martial flag of Byzantium. He used to wear the ancient Greek Macedonian helmet with the double horn. A battle follows the other in order to it keeps free his Province from tyrants. He dies on 17 January 1468, in age of 64 years from fever that was caused by malaria. He was buried in the Temple of Saint Nicolas in the Alessjo (ancient Lissos). He succeeded his son Ioannis Kastriotis.

- NATIONALITY -

The struggle of Georgios Kastriotis were struggles of an Orthodox Christian leader against the Turks in order to it keeps the Province free. He was Epirote Greek, as irrefutably declares the following Historical Sources, that they constitute monumental documents :
• The Marini Barletii, his first Biographer from the Skodra (beginnings 16th AD), him calls "Epirote prince" and "Sovereign of Epirus", while entire biography is reported only in Epirotes and never in Albanians.
• Also, himself Georgios Kastriotis addressing to the sovereign of Taranta Ioannis Antonio and giving out his origin and his genuine feelings, writes(in greek of course): "my forefathers were Epirotes from which Pyrrhus rose that only the Romans could push back “.
• Similarly as a descendant of Epirotes and not of the Illyrians he mentions in his letter to the Italian Ursini in 1460.
• Still to the King Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily he writes(in greek of course): "The shining and mighty king Alfonso, monarch of Aragon, Naples and Sicily Skenderbeis hails and wishes well ".
• Speaking in the presence of the Pope Paul B he stresses: "After the subjection of Asia and Greece, after the slaughter of her hegemonic spawns of Constantinople , the Trapezounta ... and the desolation of biggest part of Macedonia and Epirus, against the savage conqueror that seeks to ruin the cross the cross, and elevate on the Capitol the crescent and fulfillment of slavery of all the world ... alone i stand with the relic of my soldiers and with my small territory...".
• He had Greek Education and spoke the Greek Language, after by his Letters were sent written in the Greek language.
• Moreover the All Turkish biographer of Ali, Ahmet Moyfjt, writes for Georgios Kastriotis: "in the year 1443 he escaped from the Ottoman camp of Morava the Greek sovereign Kastriotis and went to the seat of his ancestors, the Kroia".
• Italian, English and Swedish reports consider Georgios Kastriotis a Greek. Thus Italian A. Salvi in the tragedy of (1718) he mentions him as a Greek (Greco Georgios Kastriotis). The English C. Randall in 1810 him calls Greek Hero (Grecian Hero) and the Swedish Barrau initially and Rudbeck later (1835) considers the Georgios Kastriotis a Greek.
• The History of French of historical Paganel (Paganel: Histoire de Scanderbey), that was published in Paris in 1855 about him says he is evidently a Greek.
• Want also a Albanian admission of Greek Epirote origin of Georgios Kastriotis The Albanian stamp of 1968, supplementing that year 500 years from his death, presents the cover of mentioned before History of Barletii, that is entered in this clearly, that was Epirote prince (Epirotarum Principis) and not Albanian or Illyrian. It writes the cover: "HISTORIA DE VITA ET GESTIS SCANDERBEGI EPIROTARUM PRINCIPIS".
• Consequently, equitably Danish Franz Nte Zesse'n, military correspondent of the newspaper "Le Temps of" Paris, doubts for the Albanian origin of Georgios Kastriotis, stressing in his lecture: "Question is, if also this Georgios Kastriotis is able to be considered Albanian, after he was son of Greek of Ioannis Kastriotis and of a Serbian princess ". Finally

The History proves effortlessly the Greek character of Georgios Kastriotis. Any effort of forgery and falsification of History comes an hour that is revealed and debunked. Because, "the great truth always predominates" (A ' Esdras 4,41).

From :

THE RISE OF ISKANDER by Benjamin Disraeli


2.1 "Iskander was the youngest son of the Prince of Epirus, who, with the other Grecian princes, had, at the commencement of the reign of Amurath the Second, in vain resisted the progress of the Turkish arms in Europe."


2.3 The despots of Bosnia, Servia, and Bulgaria, and the Grecian princes of Etolia, Macedon, Epirus, Athens, Phocis, Boeotia, and indeed of all the regions to the straits of Corinth, were tributaries to Amurat


2.4 His Turkish education could never eradicate from his memory the consciousness that he was a Greek


2.14 Had Iskander been influenced by vulgar ambition, his loftiest desires might have been fully gratified by the career which Amurath projected for him. The Turkish Sultan destined for the Grecian Prince the hand of one of his daughters, and the principal command of his armies.


3.12 A guard of honour, by the orders of Karam Bey, advanced to conduct Iskander to his presence; and soon, entering the pavilion, the Grecian prince exchanged courtesies with the Turkish general.


4.26 Soon the officer returned, and, ordering the guards to disarm and search Iskander, directed the Grecian Prince to follow him.

4.37 Iskander bowed lowly as the officer disappeared.
4.38 "And now," said Hunniades, "to business. Your purpose?"
4.39 "I am a Grecian Prince, and a compulsory ally of the Moslemin.

We could continue with several identical quotes from Disraeli's book that clearly depict him as Hellinic.. I'll just add my favorite :

6.11 Troops of armed men were charging down the streets, brandishing their scimitars and yataghans, and exclaiming,
"The Cross, the Cross!" "Liberty!" "Greece!" "Iskander and
Epirus!" The townsmen recognised their countrymen by their language and their dress. The name of
Iskander acted as a spell. They stopt not to inquire. A magic sympathy at once persuaded them that this great man had, by the grace of Heaven, recurred to the creed and country of his fathers. And so every townsman, seizing the nearest weapon, with a spirit of patriotic frenzy, rushed into the streets, crying out,
"The Cross, the Cross!" "Liberty!" "Greece!" "Iskander and Epirus!" Ay! even the women lost all womanly fears, and stimulated instead of soothing the impulse of their masters. They fetched them arms, they held the torches, they sent them forth with vows and prayers and imprecations, their children clinging to their robes, and repeating with enthusiasm, phrases which they could not comprehend

Source:
http://www.ibiblio.org/disraeli/iskander.pdf

Funny how he is meant to be the 'father of the Albanian nation' yet he would have never of used to word 'albanian' or 'shiptar' in his life to describe himself

From :

THE RISE OF ISKANDER by Benjamin Disraeli


2.1 "Iskander was the youngest son of the Prince of Epirus, who, with the other Grecian princes, had, at the commencement of the reign of Amurath the Second, in vain resisted the progress of the Turkish arms in Europe."


2.3 The despots of Bosnia, Servia, and Bulgaria, and the Grecian princes of Etolia, Macedon, Epirus, Athens, Phocis, Boeotia, and indeed of all the regions to the straits of Corinth, were tributaries to Amurat


2.4 His Turkish education could never eradicate from his memory the consciousness that he was a Greek


2.14 Had Iskander been influenced by vulgar ambition, his loftiest desires might have been fully gratified by the career which Amurath projected for him. The Turkish Sultan destined for the Grecian Prince the hand of one of his daughters, and the principal command of his armies.


3.12 A guard of honour, by the orders of Karam Bey, advanced to conduct Iskander to his presence; and soon, entering the pavilion, the Grecian prince exchanged courtesies with the Turkish general.


4.26 Soon the officer returned, and, ordering the guards to disarm and search Iskander, directed the Grecian Prince to follow him.

4.37 Iskander bowed lowly as the officer disappeared.
4.38 "And now," said Hunniades, "to business. Your purpose?"
4.39 "I am a Grecian Prince, and a compulsory ally of the Moslemin.

We could continue with several identical quotes from Disraeli's book that clearly depict him as Hellinic.. I'll just add my favorite :

6.11 Troops of armed men were charging down the streets, brandishing their scimitars and yataghans, and exclaiming,
"The Cross, the Cross!" "Liberty!" "Greece!" "Iskander and
Epirus!" The townsmen recognised their countrymen by their language and their dress. The name of
Iskander acted as a spell. They stopt not to inquire. A magic sympathy at once persuaded them that this great man had, by the grace of Heaven, recurred to the creed and country of his fathers. And so every townsman, seizing the nearest weapon, with a spirit of patriotic frenzy, rushed into the streets, crying out,
"The Cross, the Cross!" "Liberty!" "Greece!" "Iskander and Epirus!" Ay! even the women lost all womanly fears, and stimulated instead of soothing the impulse of their masters. They fetched them arms, they held the torches, they sent them forth with vows and prayers and imprecations, their children clinging to their robes, and repeating with enthusiasm, phrases which they could not comprehend

Source:
http://www.ibiblio.org/disraeli/iskander.pdf


Great post man. anymore of such sources would be greatly appreciated:thumbs:

Ridiculed by the Prince of Tarenta saying that his troops would be of little help to Ferdinand I of Aragon, Skanderbeg responded by the notable phrase, which became symbolic of the representation of his heroism: "Remember that we are the same Epirotes who have fought in different times with the Romans on this very soil on which you now tread, and always in honour and glory, and not in disgrace".

Anyone who wants to read the entire text of Disraeli's book:

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=7842

or here:

http://classiq.net/benjamin-disraeli/the-rise-of-iskander/

http://www.iscander-shortfilm.com/inglese/casting.html

in this film they will present Kastrioti as Albanian and more!
Send emails with our material to them .
And spread the word.
Sent the the historical facts that prove Kastriotis is Greek.

What did the Marin Barletii book looked like :



http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/9/9b/Barleti_historia.jpg

http://www.illyriaentertainment.com/ τα ιδια και εδω οι αλβανοι κανουν ταινιες και ντοκυμαντερ και εμεις μαλακιζομαστε

Scanderbeg:
'The eagle of the east'

http://www.neoskosmos.com.au/030120/nkew/images/feature.jpg
His stronghold at Kroia.

Skenderbeis, the last resistance fighter against the Ottomans put up much resistance in the Balkans to stop their armies marching across much more of Europe. A figure largely forgotten by Greeks of today, Dean Kalimniou has unearthed some interesting facts about the man who even managed to inspire Vivaldi...

OF all the great Balkan heroes, perhaps the least remembered is Giorgos Kastriotis, Scanderbeg. A master of international diplomacy and indomitable freedom fighter, he was one of the last warlords to resist the oncoming Ottoman onslaught even after the fall of Constantinople, carving an empire out for himself in Albania and Epirus. In the process, he conceived of a Balkans united in a trans-national empire. For this ultra-national approach, encompassing schemes as far as Hungary and Wallachia as well as his indomitable spirit which led him to resist the Ottomans for twenty five years, Kastriotis is claimed by both Albanians and Epirots alike as a national hero.
That Giorgos Kastriotis left a legacy that approached mythical proportions cannot be doubted. He was born at Kroia, now in northern Albania in 1405. It is said that when his mother was pregnant, a gigantic dragon appeared in her dreams-its head lying at the confines of the Ottoman Empire and its tail stretching as far as the Adriatic Sea. When still in his cradle, he was able to crawl out and reach for his father's guns using them as his playthings. Although his early life is shrouded in obscurity, it seems fairly certain that his father, Ioannis Kastriotis, an Epirot noble in northern Albania, upon becoming an Ottoman vassal, sent Giorgos to the Sultan's court as a hostage.
At the Sultan's court, Kastriotis, who was required to convert to Islam was at once noticed for his bearing and good looks. Admired for his bravery and daring a brilliant future was promised to him in the service of the Ottomans. He learned Turkish, Slavonic, Italian and Arabic as well as his native Greek and Albanian and excelled in the study of warfare and horsemanship. His military prowess was so great that taking part in various Ottoman campaigns in Europe and Asia Minor, he became general of Adrianople.

Despite enjoying an illustrious career, Kastriotis was to relinquish it for the life of a rebel. Several motives are postulated as to the reason for this. In 1439 the Senate of Ragusa in modern day Croatia, who had in the past honoured Ioannis Kastriotis by bestowing honorary citizenship on his sons, removed the name of Giorgos on the grounds he had embraced Islam. This made the secretly Christian Kastriotis wish to return to his roots. Another legend relates that just before his death, Ioannis Kastriotis secretly sent messengers to his son, lauding the example of freedom fighter Arjanit Komninos, an albanised descendant of one of Byzantium's greatest families whose revolt in Northern Epirus had been brutally suppressed and exhorted him to follow suit. More plausibly, after Ioannis Kastriotis' death in 1442, the Sultan occupied his patrimony and awarded it to Albanian renegade Hassan Bey instead of Giorgos and an enraged Giorgos resolved to desert the Sultan and claim his inheritance.

In 1443, Kastriotis abandoned his post at the battle of Nish in Serbia, where the Ottoman army was defeated by a Christian coalition to stem the Ottoman advance into Europe, led by Hungarian prince Janos Hunyadi. Entering the Chancellery of the Sultan with a sword in his hand, Kastiotis bade the Grand Vizier sign a 'firman' granting him title to Kroia. He then gathered 300 Epirot and Albanian soldiers serving under him and entered Kroia. After publicly proclaiming himself a Christian and flying the Byzantine double-headed eagle flag on the battlements of the fortress, he asked the local inhabitants, both Greek and Albanian, to choose between Christianity or death. Many were massacred for refusing to renounce Islam. Although this ruthless policy suggests that Kastriotis, henceforth known both to his followers and the Ottomans as Scanderbeg or 'Lord Alexander' in admiration for his military prowess, saw himself engaged in a religious war against his former masters, it appears he saw himself too as a last defender of Byzantium in the lands that once were under the sway of the Komnenian despots of Epirus.

Pitted against the might of the Ottoman Empire at its zenith, such ambition would have been quixotic and futile had Scanderbeg not possessed military genius and political vision unrivalled among his feudal contemporaries. Realising that lack of unity among the tribal leaders of Epirus and Albania had facilitated Ottoman expansion, on 1 March 1444, he engineered an alliance of all chieftains in a struggle against the Ottomans under his command. The multi-ethnic force's first baptism of fire was made on 29 June 1444.

Scanderbeg met the army of Ali Pasha on the field of Torviolli and owing to his intimate and thorough knowledge of Ottoman military theory and practice, completely annihilated it, causing the deaths of eight thousand Ottomans.
Scanderbeg's victory reverberated around Europe. In Rome Pope Eugene IV thanked God for the triumph of Christian arms and the courts of Europe knew there was another power in the East besides Hunyadi which could confront the Ottomans. The battle of Torviolli captured the imagination of Alfonso the Magnanimous of Naples, who dreamed of establishing a Catalan empire stretching from Barcelona to Constantinople. Pope Eugene began organising a crusade against the Ottomans and invited Scanderbeg to participate. Nevertheless, Murat II succeeded in obtaining a ten year peace treaty from Hunyadi, to avert the threat of crusade. The treaty was a triumph of diplomacy for Scanderbeg, who intrigued with Hungarian nobles to link Hunyadi's crusade with his own cause. Pursuant to the treaty, signed on 12 July 1444 at Szeged, the Ottomans pledged never again to set foot in the territory under the rule of Scanderbeg.

Scanderbeg saw little reason to desist from striking at Ottomans. He continued to launch attacks against them, deflecting further punitive strikes against him by Murad. Scanderbeg was never subdued. His military successes were due to the flexibility of his skilful guerilla tactics which were likened by the Ottomans as the attack of an eagle swooping down from its eyrie. Yet Scanderbeg was not just a guerilla fighter. He sought to unite the Balkans into a coalition which would be the stepping stone for the expulsion of the Turks from Europe and Asia Minor, so as to re-vitalise the Byzantine Empire, now reduced to Constantinople and its environs.

To achieve this, he sought to assist Polish King Ladislaus and Hunyadi's strike against the Ottomans in Bulgaria. In a gigantic pincer movement, Scanderbeg's troops would attack the Ottomans from behind and destroy them. However, Scanderbeg's followers refused to follow him. Their homeland was free and saw no reason to become involved in affairs that did not concern them. Scanderbeg stressed that if the coalition was defeated, there would no longer be any Christian troops to disturb the Ottomans and keep them away from his lands before the tribes acceded to his request. However the delay in taking this decision proved fatal to King Ladislaus. Clashing with the Ottoman army alone at Varna on 10 November 1444 before Scanderbeg could get his troops there, he lost the battle and his life. As he was delayed in his advance by the Serbs, who fought with the Ottomans, Scanderbeg pillaged Serbia, while recruiting Poles and Magyars, fleeing from the desolation of the Varna plain, under his banner.

Scanderbeg hurried home in 1450 upon learning that Ibrahim Pasha had laid siege to the key town of Beration in Northern Epirus. For five months the Ottomans squandered men and munitions on the walls of the fortress; the Sultan promising to recognise Scanderbeg as King of Epirus and Albania in exchange for his submission in vain. On 26 October 1450, he lifted the siege at a cost of twenty thousand men. Scanderbeg gave chase to the Ottoman army, pursuing it beyond the frontier. Humiliated and desperate, Murat returned to Adrianople, dying of a stroke the following year.

For a while peace reigned and during that brief interlude, Scanderbeg married the daughter of Arjanit Komnenos. Shortly after the wedding, King Alfonso of Naples placed him under his protection as a vassal and he found himself at the head of his troops, defeating Dalip Pasha and Hamza Pasha (1452). He then defeated the Ottomans at Skopje in 1453, vainly attempting to cross Macedonia and relieve Constantinople of its Ottoman besiegers. Scanderbeg's forces had to suppress a rebellion by his erstwhile Albanian lieutenant Mojsi of Dibra, who was promised a kingdom by new Sultan, Mehmet. Scanderbeg could not reach Constantinople and on 29 May 1453, Constantinople fell.
Incensed but powerless, Scanderbeg focused on expelling the Ottomans from the Balkans. After dealing with rebellions by his Islamised nephew, Hamza Kastriotis, and the Albanian Djukagini and Mallesori tribes, Scanderbeg was called upon as a vassal of King Alfonso's successor, Ferrante to defend the Kingdom of Naples against the incursions of the French Duke D'Anjou. Mehmet's envoys were making repeated peace overtures to Scanderbeg and Pope Pius II promised aid for a crusade to the Epirot prince if he would aid Ferrante. Scanderbeg compromised, signing a peace treaty with Mehmet on 27 April 1461. The Epirot and Albanian chieftains welcomed the advent of peace after eighteen years of uninterrupted fighting. Meanwhile, in direct parallel with ancient Epirot King Pyrrhus, Scanderbeg crossed the Adriatic and reached Puglia on 25 August 1461, just in time to rescue King Ferrante from the siege of Barletta as well as capturing Trani and expelling D'Anjou.
After these victories, his wife sent word that Ottoman armies were moving towards Epirus. On 23 September 1463, Scanderbeg declared war on the Sultan, shattering his army under Shermet Bey, at Achrida. He then returned to Kroia to await the troops that were due to arrive under Pope Pius' leadership. Fate decided otherwise, Pius dying in Ancona while preparing to sail to Epirus. With the death of Pius, his crusade collapsed. This in itself was a great victory for the Sultan, who sent out an army under Ballaban Pasha, an Albanian renegade. Ballaban fought Scanderbeg in April 1465 at Ahrida and Dryinoupolis in Northern Epirus and was outdone.

In rage, Mehmet personally led a vast army to Kroia and placed Scanderbeg's stronghold under siege. Scanderbeg slipped out of the castle and secretly made his way to Rome, where he received a hero's welcome from Pope Paul II, naming him defender of the Christian faith. Little help was forthcoming, despite being showered with honours. A Cardinal took Scanderbeg aside and advised him he would have to abandon his Orthodox faith and embrace Catholicism. Scanderbeg refused.

He returned to Kroia at once, accompanied by a small contingent of Venetian soldiers, and attacked Ballaban, who had taken over the siege, killing him and destroying his army with a stratagem. As there was no other way out, Scanderbeg at night let a flock of goats with candles on their horns, through a secret passage. The Ottomans, deceived by the lights of the candles, followed the flock through the passage. Taking advantage of the enemy's confusion, Scanderbeg trapped them and destroyed them. Since that time Scanderbeg kept a goat's head on his helmet to commemorate his victory. This was a great blow to the Sultan, who in the spring of 1467, entered Epirus, burning and destroying everything in his path. Realising his forces were diminishing, he called a Council of Chieftains to determine a war plan at Episkopi in 1468. Upon his arrival at Episkopi, just before the opening of the Assembly, he was struck down with malaria. From his deathbed, the indomitable fighter directed the defence of Skodra. News of a victory at Skodra reached him as he was dying. He called together all his princes and the Venetian ambassador and exhorted them to continue the fight against the Ottomans until they were expelled.

Giorgios Kastriotis Scanderbeg, known also as 'the eagle' died on 17 January 1468. A last beacon of hope in a world that was to fall under Ottoman rule for the next four hundred years, his conquests barely survived him. Internecine struggles between his sons and rival chieftains soon provided an opportunity for the Ottomans to conquer the eagle's eyrie. During his remarkable life, Scanderbeg not only was a thorn in the side for the Ottomans. More than any other Greek potentate, he was heavily involved in the affairs of the West, assuming legendary status. His career gave both Albanians and Epirots the necessary self-confidence and will to resist foreign domination. The Albanians adopted his coat of arms as their national flag and consider themselves 'Shqiptare' - sons of the Eagle while the Epirots revere him as a last prince of Byzantium. Both claim him as their own.

Scanderbeg's posthumous renown was by no means confined to his own lands. Voltaire thought the Byzantine Empire would have survived had it possessed a leader of his quality. His life inspired poems by French poet Ronsard and Henry Longfellow. In the eighteenth century, when the Ottomans were suffering defeats in the Balkans, there was a revival of interest in the life of Scanderbeg, inspiring operas by Vivaldi, Francouer and Lacepede as well as plays by Harvard, Whincop and Lillo in London.
Scanderbeg's legacy remains. His son married Irene Palaiologina, of the Byzantine royal family and fled to Italy. His descendants lived in Naples, Lecce and Ruffano. One of these, Isabella Castriota Scanderbeg was a noted poet of the eighteenth century while her namesake Isabella Stasi Castriota Scanderbeg is an Italian TV documentary writer and producer who lives in Rome.

Old habits die hard. Recently, Giorgio Castriota Scanderbeg, a bank employee of Naples, has made a claim to the Albanian throne. Paradoxically enough in the light of his achievements, except in Epirus this great revolutionary, who transcends nationalism and overcame immense obstacles to ensure the freedom of the Balkans, is largely forgotten by the Greeks.


http://www.neoskosmos.com.au/030120/nkew/feature/feature_index.shtml

some nice vids on youtube


YouTube - Georgios Kastriotis

YouTube - Georgios Kastriotis 2, Greek Medieval Hero

Hey guys are u going hard or its just not knowing all.
Olvios come on,we all know G.Kastrioti was orthodhox, but u have to know that not all orthodhoxs was greek.e.x>The Arberesh (albanians) of south Italy (= Arvanitis in Greece) are orthodox ,their churchs are with greek letters and their religion survived to the catholic church and to the Pope.sory but they dont speak greek , just albanian and feel it too.Their songs are about their Prince G.Kastrioti.G.K was also "princeps arbanesis" and so on ,if it is Epirus u mean ,oh...sory its another question,for its borders and for his popolation and for Pirros too.

Also u must know that albanian wasnt written at the times,the written and used languages was latin and greek.How could this Prince write and be understood by the other ones u mention.Now i am writing in English but i'm not englishman.
About those Greek Princes u also must know that still the 20th century people were mentioned in Balcans in general like turkish,greek and latins(are the catholics of north Albania >Latins, i dont think so , but they so were mentioned)

If u have information about the son of George Arianiti Comneni, Kostandin Arianiti:he survived to the turks escaping in Italy.There he keept his Tittles and honours and was called SOMETIMES as "Kostandino il greko",but he wasnt and no one beter than me and my family knows that.
All u have to make is to make the diffenrence of what was greek as nationality and what was as greek culture.
The Arberesh of Sicily , near Palermo,Piana degli Albanesi,still years 1990 were called offically too like "Piana dei Grecci"bcz there all orthodhox were called greeks.But when the Greek politic (by the state)was becoming worse and worse against albanian identity,they , proud of what they were and feel changed the name into "Piana dei Albanesi".

His seal:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7889/skanderbegsseglxj3.jpg

The inscription reads: "Alexander is an Emperor and a King. Emperor of the Romaic nation (Greeks) and King of the Turks, the Albanians, the Serbs and the Bulgarians."



The Despotate of Epirus:

Despotate of Epirus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_Epirus)

The Despotate of Epirus (Greek: Δεσποτάτο της Ηπείρου) was one of the medieval Greek successor states of the Byzantine Empire, founded in the aftermath of the Fourth Crusade in 1204. It claimed to be the legitimate successor of the Byzantine Empire, along with the Empire of Nicaea, and the Empire of Trebizond. The term "despotate" is a misnomer, as the first rulers of Epirus did not hold the court dignity of despotes, which was in any case not a hereditary title associated with any particular jurisdiction.

The Despotate was founded in 1205 by Michael Komnenos Doukas, a cousin of the Byzantine emperors Isaac II Angelos and Alexios III Angelos. At first, Michael allied with Boniface of Montferrat, but having lost Morea (Peloponnese) to the Franks at the battle of the Olive Grove of Koundouros, he went to Epirus, where he considered himself the Byzantine governor of the old province of Nicopolis and revolted against Boniface.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/ShepherdByzempire1265.jpg

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/8766/kastriotisya0.png
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1685/gjergji20kastriotiun2.gif

Yeah, I not really sure about his origin. Northern Epirots claim he is Greek. In any case he was a hero for the Shqipetars. I believe he is of Albanian origin but he might have been like other Arvanites, very fond of any greek heritage. In any case, his seal is really awesome. Doesn't matter what he was, his words tell all the truth! Alexander Emperor of the Romaic nation!!!!!

In my opinion he is a figure for Greeks, Albanians and Serbs. His mother was Serb. He himself was a Greek and his state was a Greek successor state of the Byzantine empire after the fourth crusade. Many of his cheifs under him were Albanians and they made up a large part of his army. He has "descendents" (not literal but in the sense that they were his people) in Italy who are Albanians. Yet at the same time many of his troops and subjects were Greeks as well as Serbs and Bulgarians

Funny how he is meant to be the 'father of the Albanian nation' yet he would have never of used to word 'albanian' or 'shiptar' in his life to describe himself

Im not sorry to interrup you, but...

all the italian historian who spent their life by Gjergji's side to write about his life are saying quiet the oposite..

Why dont you read Barlet's book about him? he wrote about him and what language his was using.

His father wasnt called Ioanis, thats a greek version, like John Marx in greek u will say that Ioanis maksimos?

He was called Gjon and his wife was from Montenegro, a place of albanian majority!


anyway its stupid me to write more, you should open a history book better.

Skanderbeg

George Kastrioti (born Gjergj Kastrioti, May 6 (disputed), 1405 - January 17, 1468), better known as Skanderbeg (Turkish:İskender Bey), is one of the most prominent historical figures in the history of Albania and the Albanian people. He is also known as the Dragon of Albania[1] and is the national hero of the Albanians. He is remembered for his struggle against the Ottoman Empire, through the work of his first biographer, Marin Barleti.

Biography

Service in the Ottoman Army
Born in Dibër, Skanderbeg was a descendant of the Kastriotis, who were one of the principal families in what was then called Arberia (today Albania).

According to Gibbon,[3] Skanderbeg's father, Gjon Kastrioti, was a hereditary prince of a small district of Epirus or Albania that included Mat, Krujë, Mirditë and Dibër.[4] His mother Voisava was a princess[5] from the Tribalda family,[6] who came from the Polog valley, in modern-day Macedonia. Gjon Kastrioti was among those who opposed[7] the early incursion of Ottoman Bayezid I, however his resistance was ineffectual. The Sultan, having accepted his submissions, obliged him to pay tribute and to ensure the fidelity of local rulers, George Kastrioti and his three brothers were taken by the Sultan to his court as hostages. After his conversion to Islam,[8] he attended military school in Edirne and led many battles for the Ottoman Empire to victory. For his military victories, he received the title Arnavutlu İskender Bey, (Albanian: Skënderbeu Shqiptari, English: Skanderbeg, the Albanian). In Turkish and Albanian this title means Lord Alexander the Albanian, comparing Kastrioti's military brilliance to that of Alexander the Great).

He earned distinction as an officer in several Ottoman campaigns both in Asia Minor and in Europe, and the Sultan appointed him to the rank of General by giving him a cavalry force of 5,000 men. Some sources claim that he maintained secret links with Ragusa, Venice, Ladislaus V of Hungary, and Alfonso I of Naples

Fighting for freedom
On November 28, 1443, Skanderbeg saw his opportunity to rebel during a battle against the Hungarians led by John Hunyadi in Niš. He switched sides along with 300 other Albanians serving in the Ottoman army. After a long trek to Albania he eventually captured Krujë by forging a letter[7] from the Sultan to the Governor of Krujë, which granted him control of the territory. After capturing the castle, Skanderbeg[3] abjured the prophet and the sultan, and proclaimed himself the avenger of his family and country. He raised his standard (that later became the Albanian flag) above the castle and reportedly pronounced: "I have not brought you freedom, I found it here, among you." Skanderbeg allied with George Arianite[9](born Gjergj Arianit Komneni) and married his daughter Andronike (born Marina Donika Arianiti)[

...Following the capture of Krujë, Skanderbeg managed to bring together all the Albanian princes in the town of Lezhë[11] (see League of Lezhë, 1444). According to Gibbon[3] reports that "Albanians, a martial race, were unanimous to live and die with their hereditary prince" and that "in the assembly of the states of Epirus, Skanderbeg was elected general of the Turkish war and each of the allies engaged to furnish his respective proportion of men and money". With this support, Skanderbeg built fortresses and organized a mobile defense force that forced the Ottomans to disperse their troops, leaving them vulnerable to the hit-and-run tactics of the Albanians.[12] Skanderbeg fought a guerrilla war against the opposing armies by using the mountainous terrain to his advantage. Skanderbeg continued his resistance against the Ottoman forces until his death, with a force rarely exceeding 20,000.

Although it is commonly believed that Skanderbeg took part in the Second Battle of Kosovo in 1448, he actually never arrived. He and his army were en route to reinforce the mainly Hungarian army of John Hunyadi, but the Albanians were intercepted and were not allowed passage by Đurađ Branković of Serbia as he had agreed that while he would aid Skanderbeg against the Venetians, he would not against the Turks. About the time of the battle, Mehmed II also launched an invasion into Albania in order to keep Skanderbeg busy. Although Hunyadi was defeated in the campaign, Hungary successfully resisted and defeated the Ottoman campaigns during Hunyadi's lifetime

In June 1450, an Ottoman army numbering approximately 150,000 men[citation needed] led by Sultan Murad II himself laid siege to Krujë. Leaving a protective garrison of 1,500 men under one of his most trusted lieutenants, Vrana Konti (also know as Kont Urani), Skanderbeg harassed the Ottoman camps around Krujë and attacked the supply caravans of the sultan's army. By September the Ottoman camp was in disarray as morale sank and disease ran rampant. Murad II acknowledged the castle of Krujë would not fall by strength of arms, and he lifted the siege and made his way to Edirne. Soon thereafter in the winter of 1450-51, Murad died in Edirne and was succeeded by his son Mehmed II.

For the next five years Albania was allowed some respite as the new sultan set out to conquer the last vestiges of the Byzantine Empire. The first real test between the armies of the new sultan and Skanderbeg came in 1455 during the Siege of Berat, and would end in the most disastrous defeat Skanderbeg would suffer. Skanderbeg had sieged the town's castle for months, causing the demoralized Turkish officer in charge of the castle to promise his surrender. At that point Skanderbeg relaxed the grip, split his forces and left the siege location. He left behind one of his generals and half of his cavalry at the bank of the river Osam to finalize the surrender. It would be a costly error.

The Ottomans saw this moment as an opportunity for attack. They sent a large cavalry force from Kosovo Polje to Berat as reinforcements. The Albanian forces had become overconfident and had been lulled into a false sense of security. The Ottomans caught the Albanian cavalry by surprise while they were resting in the shores of the Osam. Almost all the 5,000 Albanian cavalry laying siege to Berat were massacred. When Skanderbeg made it to the battlefield, everything was over; the Ottoman cavalry had already left for Anatolia. A reason of this defeat of Skanderbeg's army, was the betrayal of his nephew, Hamza Kastrioti who was an officer of Skanderbeg's cavalry that passed on the Ottoman side with other Albanian forces and gave the Ottomans important information about the locatin and the organization of the Albanian troops. Later Hamza Kastrioti was captured in the battlefield by Skanderbeg himself, and imprisoned in the castle of Krujë.

In 1457, an Ottoman army numbering approximately 80,000 men[citation needed] invaded Albania with the hope of destroying Albanian resistance once and for all; this army was led by Isa beg Evrenoz, one of the only commanders to have defeated Skanderbeg in battle, and Hamza Kastrioti, Skanderbeg’s nephew. After wreaking much damage to the countryside[citation needed], the Ottoman army set up camp at the Ujebardha field (literally translated as "Whitewater"), halfway between Lezhë and Krujë. After having evaded the enemy for months, Skanderbeg attacked there and defeated the Ottomans in September.

In 1461 the Sultan proposed[7] terms of accommodation with Skanderbeg and a peace was concluded between them on June 22. In the same year, Skanderbeg launched a successful campaign[11] against the Angevin noblemen and their allies who sought to destabilize King Ferdinand I of Naples. For his services[13] he gained the title of Duke of San Pietro in the kingdom of Naples. After securing the Neapolitan kingdom, a crucial ally in his struggle, he returned home. In 1464 Skanderbeg fought and defeated Ballaban Badera, an Albanian renegade who had captured a large number of Albanian army commanders,[14] including Moisi Arianit Golemi, a cavalry commander; Vladan Giurica, the chief army quartermaster; Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew of Skanderbeg, and 18 other noblemen and army captains. These men were sent immediately to Istanbul and tortured for fifteen days.[14] Skanderbeg’s pleas to have these men back, by either ransom or prisoner exchange, failed.

In 1466 Sultan Mehmed II personally led an army into Albania and laid siege to Krujë as his father had attempted sixteen years earlier. The town was defended by a garrison of 4,400 men, led by Prince Tanush Topia. After several months, Mehmed, like Murad II, saw that seizing Krujë by force of arms was impossible for him to accomplish. Shamed, he left the siege to return to Istanbul. However, he left a force of 40,000 men under Ballaban Pasha to maintain the siege, even building a castle in central Albania, which he named El-basan (the modern Elbasan), to support the siege. Durrës would be the next target of the sultan, in order to be used as a strong base opposite the Italian coast.[15] The second siege of Kruja was eventually broken by Skanderbeg, resulting in the death of Ballaban Pasha from firearms.

A few months later in 1467, Mehmed, frustrated by his inability to subdue Albania, again led the largest army of its time into Albania. Krujë was besieged for a third time, but on a much grander scale. While a contingent kept the city and its forces pinned down, Ottoman armies came pouring in from Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia, and Epirus with the aim of keeping the whole country surrounded, thereby strangling Skanderbeg’s supply routes and limiting his mobility. During this conflict, Skanderbeg fell ill with malaria in the Venetian-controlled city of Lezhë, and died on January 17, 1468, just as the army under the leadership of Leke Dukagjini defeated the Ottoman force in Shkodër.

Papal relations
Skanderbeg's military successes evoked a good deal of interest and admiration from the Papal States, Venice, and Naples, themselves threatened by the growing Ottoman power across the Adriatic Sea. Skanderbeg managed to arrange for support in the form of money, supplies, and occasionally troops from all three states through his diplomatic skill. One of his most powerful and consistent supporters was Alfonso the Magnanimous, the king of Aragon and Naples, who decided to take Skanderbeg under his protection as a vassal in 1451, shortly after the latter had scored his second victory against Murad II. In addition to financial assistance, the King of Naples supplied the Albanian leader with troops, military equipment, and sanctuary for himself and his family if such a need should arise. As an active defender of the Christian cause in the Balkans, Skanderbeg was also closely involved with the politics of four Popes, including Pope Pius II, who hailed him as the Christian Gideon.[13]

Profoundly shaken by the fall of Constantinople in 1453, Pius II tried to organize a new crusade against the Ottoman Turks, and to that end he did his best to come to Skanderbeg's aid, as his predecessors Pope Nicholas V and Pope Calixtus III had done before him. the latter named him captain general of the Holy See. This policy was continued by his successor, Pope Paul II. They gave him the title Athleta Christi, or Champion of Christ.

After death

A horseman statue portraying the Albanian folk hero, George Castriota Skanderbeg, in the square Piazza Albania in Rome, Italy.The Albanian resistance went on after the death of Skanderbeg for an additional ten years under the leadership of Dukagjini, though with only moderate success and no great victories. In 1478, the fourth siege of Krujë finally proved successful for the Ottomans; demoralized and severely weakened by hunger and lack of supplies from the year-long siege, the defenders surrendered to Mehmed, who had promised them to leave unharmed in exchange. As the Albanians were walking away with their families, however, the Ottomans reneged on this promise, killing the men and enslaving the women and children.[15]

In 1479, the Ottoman forces captured the Venetian-controlled Shkodër after a fifteen-month siege.[16] Shkodër was the last Albanian castle to fall to the Ottomans and Venetians evacuated Durrës in 1501. Albanian resistance continued sporadically until around 1500.

The union[1] which Skanderbeg had maintained in Albania did not survive him. Without Skanderbeg at their lead, their allegiances faltered and splintered until they were forced into submission. The defeats triggered a great Albanian exodus[16] to southern Italy, especially to the kingdom of Naples, as well as to Sicily, Greece, Romania, and Egypt. Following this, most of its population converted to Islam. Albania remained a part of the Ottoman Empire until 1912, never again posing a serious threat to the Ottomans.


[edit] Effects on the Ottoman expansion
The Ottoman Empire's expansion was ground to a halt during the timeframe in which Skanderbeg and his Albanian forces resisted. He has been credited with being the main reason for delaying Ottoman expansion into Western Europe, giving Vienna time to better prepare for the Ottoman arrival. While the Albanian resistance certainly played a vital role in this, it was one piece of numerous events that played out in the mid-15th century. Much credit must also go to the successful resistance mounted by Vlad III Dracula in Wallachia, as well as the defeats inflicted upon the Ottomans by Hunyadi and his Hungarian forces.


Descendants
Skanderbeg's family, the Castriots,[3] were invested with a Neapolitan dukedom after the Turkish pressure became too strong. They obtained a feudal fiefdom, the Duchy of San Pietro di Galatina. John, Skanderbeg's son, married Irene Palaeologus of the Byzantine royal family, the Palaeologus.[17]

An illegitimate branch of that family lives onwards in south Italy, having used the name Castriota Scanderbeg for centuries. They have been part of Italian lower nobility. The legitimate line of George Castriota went extinct as to males within a few generations, but apparently the family continues through a Sanseverino branch. There is also a Spanish nobleman by the name of Juan Alandro Castriota who contributed a great deal towards Albania's struggle for independence.

Name
His names have been spelled in a number of ways: George, Gjergj, Giorgio; Castriota, Kastrioti, Castrioti, ,[7] Kastriotes, Castriot,[13] Kastriot, Skanderbeg, Scanderbeg, Skenderbeg, Skanderbeu, Scander-Begh, or Iskander Bey.

Legacy

When the Ottomans found the grave of Skanderbeg in Saint Nicholas, a church in Lezhë, they opened it and made amulets of his bones,[3] believing that these would confer bravery on the wearer.

Skanderbeg today is the national hero of Albania. Many museums and monuments, such as the Skanderbeg Museum next to the castle in Krujë, have been raised in his honor around Albania and in predominantly Albanian-populated Kosovo. Skanderbeg's struggle against the Ottoman Empire became highly significant to the Albanian people, as it strengthened their solidarity, made them more conscious of their national identity, and served later as a great source of inspiration in their struggle for national unity, freedom, and independence.

In Arbëresh poems he is not only the defender of their home country, but also the defender of Christianity. For the Albanians in Albania, a large majority of whom are Muslims, Skanderbeg is a national argument proving Albania's cultural affinity to Europe. Many have argued he was Muslim himself, although he was not. He had converted while held captive in Anatolia, but later reverted back to Christianity upon escaping.

The Helmet

Skanderbeg’s helmet is made of white metal, adorned with a strip dressed in gold. On its top lies the head of a horned goat made of bronze, also dressed in gold. The bottom part bears a copper strip adorned with a monogram separated by rosettes * IN * PE * RA * TO * RE * BT *, which means: Jhezus Nazarenus * Principi Emathie * Regi Albaniae * Terrori Osmanorum * Regi Epirotarum * Benedictat Te (Jesus Nazarene Blesses Thee [Skanderbeg], Prince of Mat, King of Albania, Terror of the Ottomans, King of Epirus). It is thought that the copper strip with the monogram is the work of the descendants of Skanderbeg and was placed there by them, as Skanderbeg never held any other title but “Lord of Albania” (Dominus Albaniae)


The first element which commands attention is the meaning and symbolism of the horned goat on the helmet. It is difficult to assess with certainty what the horned goat might signify. It might be explained by the cult of the wild goat, the symbol of the “zana” or goddess "Diana".Note: Dhi-ana; Lady of the Goats in Albanian. The 'Z', 'D', 'Th' shift is vey common like Zeus, Deus, Theos. There are signs indicating that the cult of the wild goat is very ancient. The Roman writer and historian of the I-II century A.D., S. Suetom Tanquilli (De Vita Caesarum, L.II, 12, 94.) writes that the Roman Emperor Augustus, after putting down the Illyrian revolt of Bato, cut a coin bearing the head of a horned goat to celebrate the victory.

There is another possible explanation with serious historical ramifications. According to a report by historian Shefqet Pllana, Sami Frasheri in his Kamus-al-Alam maintains that the wording "Dhu lKarnejn" (owner of the two horns) was an appellative attributed to Alexander the Great of Macedon, the very name which Skanderbeg bore in the Islamic form. This second explanation may be the truer, since the theory of the Macedonian-Albanian and Epirot-Albanian continuance is strong not only among Albanians but among all the peoples of Europe. This opinion agrees with the work of Marin Barleti who writes: “When the people saw all those young and brave men around Skanderbeg, then it was not hard to believe that the armies of [Sultan] Murat were so defeated by the Albanians. Indeed, the times when the star of Macedon shone brilliantly had returned, just as they seemed in those long forgotten times of Pyrrhus and Alexander."

At the request of the pre-WWII Albanian government, an identical copy of the helmet of Skanderbeg lies now in the National Museum of Tirana, Albania. The copy was manufactured by a talented Austrian master in 1937.

Ervald welcome to the macedoniaontheweb.:)

All your previous posts are directly from the Skanderbeg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg) . So I will use also your source.

Personally I am not from those that we support Greek or Albania origin because the lack of the historical sources.All the historical sources mentioned him as Epirotan.One from your historical argument is this that came from Barleti History.Below is the front page of his biography. that I took it from your source. I think in 1968 Albanian authorities published a mail stamp with this pic.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/Barleti_historia.jpg


So my question if there is in that biography any reference that mention him as Albanian ? As I know he mentioned him only as Epirotan.

Akritas have you ever read Martin Barletius work? The context inwhich he uses Epirotian is not in anyway related to some kind of separate identity, rather in the middle ages until around the late 1800's, Albania was associated as Epirus.

I cant provide you with the text, but I can provide you with the next best thing, a study of it:

There have been various translations of Barletius work, one in English is entitled:

Historie of George Castriot, surnamed Scanderbeg, King of Albinie; containing his Famous Actes, his Noble Deedes of Armes and Memorable Victories against the Turkes for the Faith of Christ

Another in French is called:

Histoire de Georges Castriot Surnomé Scanderbeg, Roy d'Albanie



According to Edward Gibbons:

John Castriot, the father of Scanderbeg, (36) was the hereditary prince of a small district of Epirus or Albania, between the mountains and the Adriatic Sea.


This is corroborated by an Albanian priest named Frang Bardhi who writes:

In Epirotic (Albanian), this town is known as Ndenscati (Nënshat), meaning 'under Sapa' (1), from which derives the title of the bishop, Bishop of Sapatensis. It is known for certain that four bishops come from this village: George Summa (Gjergj Suma), Tosolo Bianchi (Tozol Bardhi), Nicholas Bianchi (Nikollë Bardhi) and the afore-mentioned Gjergj Bardhi, now Archbishop of Bar. The last three made great efforts to rule and to protect the Christian faithful from the impiety of the Muslims over the last ninety years, right up to the present bishop, Francis Bianchi (Frang Bardhi), their relation and successor. The family and lineage of the Bardhis is considered noble in Albania.

Frang Bardhi also write a well known Latin-Albanian dictionary which was called the "Latino-Epiroticum" dictionary

This is corroborated by Scanderbeg himself who replies to the prince of Taranto after the prince calls the Albanians sheep:

You will find other men who all support your proud appearance (?) and no one will avoid your face. Our Italian soldiers will challenge you very well and have no fear of the Albanese. We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies; (neÕ?) would you have embarked on such a business if you had stayed to dwell in your house.

Here the prince makes no mention of the Epirots, however Scanderbeg responds:

Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.

Remember the the prince of Taranto never makes a mention of the "epirots" in his writings. Why does Scanderbeg bring them up now? He is using Albanian and Epirot interchangably.

He was not the only one:

In Musachi's writing(An Albanian lord who now resided in Italy, Albania is named as part of Epirus:

They say in fact that our dynasty stems from the city of Constantinople and came to rule over Epirus in Albania.

He gives away his origin by saying:

When you come upon the name Theodore Musachi Chiscetisi (Kishetisi), know that Kishetisi means long haired. And indeed they wore their hair long. In Albanian, the word 'kishet' (gërshet) means 'braids' and that was the way they were accustomed to wearing their hair, as far as I remember. Even in our times, they usually wore their hair down to their shoulders in our principality. This is why I mention this.


This a result of the Despot of Epirus. Afterwards when it crumbled Albs felt themselves to be the inheritors of the land.

As for those using Disraeli as a source, well he is not a valid one.

The Rise of Iskander makes no attempt to be historical nor in any way does it endeavour to paint a realistic picture of Scanderbeg's life. It is simply a sentimental tale in the form of a short novel, which makes use of the figure of Scanderbeg to provide the oriental backdrop, with requisite local colour and costumes which the author so loved.

He calls Scanderbeg Greek because he is connecting him to Christianity at a time when being Albanian meant Muslim.

The confusion in the sources is not there to say that Scanderbeg had any greek origin. At the time Greek did not equate Epirotian and neither did Greeks call themselves such, the common phrase was still Roman. In the west there occurred a general confusion since the people did not know the makeup of the area until relatively recently. They did not know what Epirus was exactly. On top of it all they connected the people living in an area automatically as descendants of a certain ancient dwellers there the Bulgarians were Panonnians, Albanians were Epirotians while the Yugoslavs were considered Illyrians. The fact that the word was used interchangably did not help out. The League of Lezhe as known today(lezhe is in northern Albania, as well as Kruja aswell as Mat. All areas related to Scanderbeg) was actually known as the League of Epirus:

This is Alexander Castrioti, or Scanderbeg. During the armed resistance of the Ottoman advance in northern Albania, he was the leader of a number of Albanian chieftains, but he never took the title of King of Epirus. Epirus was a territory comprehending part of northern Greece and Albania south of the Apsus River (today Seman river).... Sarrochi, like her contemporaries, uses the name Epirus to indicate the country claimed by Scanderbeg alliance and calls Scanderbeg king of Epirus.

Heroes and Deeds of Scanderbeg, King of Epirus. pp.75

The general concensus is that Scanderbeg was infact Albanian and commanded over Albanians. This has never been doubted by historians, only by "agendaists"...

If anyone wants my sources email me. Unfortunately I cannot post HTML's on this site...

Ervald you cant possiblt consider posting the entire wikipedia article on him as a feasable argument. For god's sakes the opening paragraph of that article says that he "fought for the independence of albania", which we both know is bollocks. Look at the discussion page of that article; the albanians have gone nuts there. Every second word of the article is Albanian and they have erased thing which describes him as Greek.

Theodosivs said:

King of Albinie

Did you see Kastriotis' seal? it said he was emperor of the romaioi and king of the serbs, albanians, Bulgarians and Turks.


Name
His names have been spelled in a number of ways: George, Gjergj, Giorgio; Castriota, Kastrioti, Castrioti, ,[7] Kastriotes, Castriot,[13] Kastriot, Skanderbeg, Scanderbeg, Skenderbeg, Skanderbeu, Scander-Begh, or Iskander Bey.

Yes thats right Im sure he was never described as "Kastriotis":lol: very unbiased wikipedia article:rolleyes:

Theodosivs surely you can agree at least that the etymology of Kastriotis is Greek? Was his surename Hellenised?

Did you see Kastriotis' seal? it said he was emperor of the romaioi and king of the serbs, albanians, Bulgarians and Turks.

On Scanderbeg's seal:

Maybe the seal was 'designed' when Scanderbeg was organising a crusade against the Osmans, maybe it was manufactured when Scanderbeg served as a vassal to the King of Naples. Probably the seal was commissioned of the family of Scanderbeg some time in the 16th century. You cannot know exactly. Even, it is not to say whether the seal is a fake (from the 15th or 16th century).

It is not accepted as genuine among academic circles. The oldest date ascribed to it is the mid-16th century.

Theodosivs surely you can agree at least that the etymology of Kastriotis is Greek? Was his surename Hellenised?

1. Albanian nomenclature has evolved significantly since the middle-ages.
2. There are numerous placenames in northern Albania near Dibra that have Kastrati, Kastriot and such.

You cannot know exactly. Even, it is not to say whether the seal is a fake (from the 15th or 16th century).

"You cannot know exactly", hmmmm I wonder what was the nationality of the person who threw that little edit in on the wikipedia page :lol:


What does 'Kastrioti' mean in Albanian?

"You cannot know exactly", hmmmm I wonder what was the nationality of the person who threw that little edit in on the wikipedia page

The quote is not from wikipedia....

//bjoerna.dk Forlag

/albansk-historie/

Seal-of-Scanderbeg .

here is the link. If you can configure it


What does 'Kastrioti' mean in Albanian?

Kastriot.. Person from Kastra(t). -iot suffix has been borrowed by Albs to a certain extent.

This is the link BA Forlag (http://bjoerna.dk/). Im not sure what this site is and why it has articles about Kosovo etc. It also has a link to the wikipedia article in the top left hand corner. Who is 'borrowing historical information' from whom? In regards to his seal even if it is not from the time of the Ottoman invasions and is created by his family is it not still a telling and relevant point of discussion? Who is supposed to have faked it and for what cause?



This is what you beleive the eymology to be ok. The 'Greek' etymology is "Kastro" 'Castle' iotis 'man of'. Castleman. What do you think is more accepted by linguists and historians of Skanderbeis?

Kastriot.. Person from Kastra(t). -iot suffix has been borrowed by Albs to a certain extent.


it seems that not only the -iot suffix is borrowed by Albanians but also the -ioti, where his name is spellt as 'Kastrioti':rolleyes:

The person who placed it on wiki copied it directly from that website. I have been trying to bring it to the attention of people on wiki but nobody has noticed so far.

-i is a suffix added to every Albanian male name. If it's Mehmet, we would say Mehmeti, if its Panagiot we say Panagioti. Arian is Ariani. etc. etc.

Hence it was originally just George Kastriot, however Albs would say Kastrioti.

Historians of Scanderbeg. the only person who commented on this was Harry Hodgkinson in his book "Scanderbeg". It's in his notes page. I would get it but right now I am not home. However I will get it some other time.

The person who placed it on wiki copied it directly from that website. I have been trying to bring it to the attention of people on wiki but nobody has noticed so far.

-i is a suffix added to every Albanian male name. If it's Mehmet, we would say Mehmeti, if its Panagiot we say Panagioti. Arian is Ariani. etc. etc.

Next thing you will tell me that Panagioti is of Alb etymology

Yes and what and who exaclty is that website? why does it have articles about the political situation in Kosovo and why should we take its opionions on the authenticity of that seal seriously?

The website is by a man named Bjørn Andersen. he is a sociologist/historian who also deals heavily in Albanian history and people. At that particular article he was discussing Ludvig Holberg who wrote a history of Scanderbeg in the 17th century that never went published.

Next thing you will tell me that Panagioti is of Alb etymology

No but its a name commonly used by orthodox christian albs.

The Helmet

Skanderbeg’s helmet is made of white metal, adorned with a strip dressed in gold. On its top lies the head of a horned goat made of bronze, also dressed in gold. The bottom part bears a copper strip adorned with a monogram separated by rosettes * IN * PE * RA * TO * RE * BT *, which means: Jhezus Nazarenus * Principi Emathie * Regi Albaniae * Terrori Osmanorum * Regi Epirotarum * Benedictat Te (Jesus Nazarene Blesses Thee [Skanderbeg], Prince of Mat, King of Albania, Terror of the Ottomans, King of Epirus). It is thought that the copper strip with the monogram is the work of the descendants of Skanderbeg and was placed there by them, as Skanderbeg never held any other title but “Lord of Albania” (Dominus Albaniae)


The first element which commands attention is the meaning and symbolism of the horned goat on the helmet. It is difficult to assess with certainty what the horned goat might signify. It might be explained by the cult of the wild goat, the symbol of the “zana” or goddess "Diana".Note: Dhi-ana; Lady of the Goats in Albanian. The 'Z', 'D', 'Th' shift is vey common like Zeus, Deus, Theos. There are signs indicating that the cult of the wild goat is very ancient. The Roman writer and historian of the I-II century A.D., S. Suetom Tanquilli (De Vita Caesarum, L.II, 12, 94.) writes that the Roman Emperor Augustus, after putting down the Illyrian revolt of Bato, cut a coin bearing the head of a horned goat to celebrate the victory.

There is another possible explanation with serious historical ramifications. According to a report by historian Shefqet Pllana, Sami Frasheri in his Kamus-al-Alam maintains that the wording "Dhu lKarnejn" (owner of the two horns) was an appellative attributed to Alexander the Great of Macedon, the very name which Skanderbeg bore in the Islamic form. This second explanation may be the truer, since the theory of the Macedonian-Albanian and Epirot-Albanian continuance is strong not only among Albanians but among all the peoples of Europe. This opinion agrees with the work of Marin Barleti who writes: “When the people saw all those young and brave men around Skanderbeg, then it was not hard to believe that the armies of [Sultan] Murat were so defeated by the Albanians. Indeed, the times when the star of Macedon shone brilliantly had returned, just as they seemed in those long forgotten times of Pyrrhus and Alexander."

At the request of the pre-WWII Albanian government, an identical copy of the helmet of Skanderbeg lies now in the National Museum of Tirana, Albania. The copy was manufactured by a talented Austrian master in 1937.

It keeps me highly amused everytime i read such nationalistic crap. Conveniently those who wrote these paragraphs, ignore the two-horned helmet was common not only in the greek world but partly in mediteranean (Assyro-Babylonians, Egyptians, etc), used mostly from kings/leaders of army. Even Agamemnon in Iliad wears such a helmet. Of course Alexander wore a two-horned helmet but what these loonies forget to mention is this helmet with the goat horns was a symbol of Macedonian Kings prior to Alexander. Afterall Macedonians named their city Aigae (in greek 'goat'). As for the "Macedonian-Albanian continuance" acknowledged strongly by most people in Europe, there it lies why noone takes you serious guys anywhere. Just for the record about two-horned helmets. In Louvre exists a full-sized Greek helmet of gold, having the two distinctive horns (Daremberg et Saglio, p. 1534). Generally if anyone wanted to have a real scientific input on the issue, he could start from the Naples museum and Louvre where there are lots of horned helmets, among them several ancient Greek bronze bearing a pair of horns. In Cyprus archaeologists discovered a religious building, called the sanctuary of the 'horned God', named after from a solid bronze statue found inside with a god depicted as a young man wearing a helmet with two horns.

Ervald welcome to the macedoniaontheweb.:)
Personally I am not from those that we support Greek or Albania origin because the lack of the historical sources.All the historical sources mentioned him as Epirotan.One from your historical argument is this that came from Barleti History.Below is the front page of his biography. that I took it from your source. I think in 1968 Albanian authorities published a mail stamp with this pic.[/LEFT]




So my question if there is in that biography any reference that mention him as Albanian ? As I know he mentioned him only as Epirotan.

As I said,

His father was the lord or how else you can say it of that region "Kruja".

Not everything is writen well in Wikipedia and I dont really trust it but somehow the most of the text is acurate.

The 2 headed flag didnt came from Gjergji himself, it was his father's legacy of kruja castle long ago ebfoer the turks.

Now his father was from Epirus, but as you know epirus had Albanians, therefore if his father was greek he wouldnt go in north albania and make his kingdom. And he would make that region greek.. like for example. Can I be your greek president? ofcourse not.

And last of all he spoke our language, fought for our people cause all his life in the ottoman army he was thinking of his father's words "Remember this land, the mountains, this is your homeland, fight for it" before the turks took him as a child.

We Albanians dont have any tedency for taking others land and we are not very good with propaganda.
You should focus more to the sllavs who are the worse people who came and toook mine and ur lands

@Ervald
I was specific in my previous post.Most famous Historical sources quoted him as Epirotan and not as Albanian or Greek with Slav mother.

Thats why I put my question regarding Barleti Historia, and of course I didnt see any answer from you.

As about the double-head Eagle is a known Byzantine Symbol and originated from Pontus. After the Latin conquest of Constantinople in 1204, it was used by the successor states besides Epiris and also from Nicaea.

As about the language also this is mean nothing.Language is not indicate ethincity in multicultural societes in the medieval and modern era.Actually dont forget that spoken also Turkish, Greek and Latin very well.

Now for the propaganda( history I think that you mean) all the Balkan states make theirs own efforts regarding to steal history. And they focus in the ancient one.Any way is not consider this thread

@Theodosivs
I have also and other sources that mentioned him as Greek like
-Italin A. Salvi, 1718
-British C. Randall,1810
-French Paganel (Histoire de Scanderbey), 1855

In who is right regarding the origin in my opinion the answer is given by Kastriotis with the known letter to the Taranta Hegemon(Antony), when clearly identify him self as Epirotan.

Now his father was from Epirus, but as you know epirus had Albanians, therefore if his father was greek he wouldnt go in north albania and make his kingdom. And he would make that region greek.. like for example. Can I be your greek president? ofcourse not.



Come on this is clearly specious reasoning. Apart from the fact that ethnicity was not the foremost issue in such a time. The Despotate of Epirus founded after the 4th crusade stretched from the gulf of the Peloponesse to Northern Albania. Kastriotis's family's state was the successor of this state.

Greek lords during Byzantine times ruled and had their political centres in many places where the population was predominantly Armenian/ Bulgarian/ Serbian or what have you. In any case people had less of a say and religion was by far the more important factor; thats why the Albanians, Greeks and Slavs rallied around Kastriotis.

The 2 headed flag didnt came from Gjergji himself, it was his father's legacy of kruja castle long ago ebfoer the turks.

Exactly, it was the war flag of the Byzantine Empire. The Despotate of Epirus considered itself the successor of Byzantium like Trebzoid and Nicea etc

And last of all he spoke our language, fought

Well you would hope he spoke Albanian when Kroia was and is predominantly Albanian. But he also spoke Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian and Turkish.

We Albanians dont have any tedency for taking others land and we are not very good with propaganda.
You should focus more to the sllavs who are the worse people who came and toook mine and ur lands

History is not the kind of thing you can just 'trade off'. Albanians have been as bad as Slavs in terms of propaganda. ie Alexander the Great, Pyrros the Great etc etc

I need to see the context inwhich those particular authors wrote that. Your not giving me an arguement nor evidence, your just giving me names I can't do anything with.

In who is right regarding the origin in my opinion the answer is given by Kastriotis with the known letter to the Taranta Hegemon(Antony), when clearly identify him self as Epirotan.

Yes, which is use interchangably with Albanian.

As about the double-head Eagle is a known Byzantine Symbol and originated from Pontus. After the Latin conquest of Constantinople in 1204, it was used by the successor states besides Epiris and also from Nicaea.

Just like the Serbs, Russians and the various other groups related to the empire, Albanians adopted the Byzantine flag. All the major Albanian figures did: Dukagjini, Thopia, Zacharjia, Theodore Bua, Arianits. etc. They defined with the empire

Kastriotis's family's state was the successor of this state.

Kastrioti never claimed to be an inheritor or a successor of the Despotate. Various other lords had far more claim to it then he did. The Arianit family did aswell. Kastrioti was simply a feudal lord who became the head of a league of Albanian lords.

Greek lords during Byzantine times ruled and had their political centres in many places where the population was predominantly Armenian/ Bulgarian/ Serbian or what have you. In any case people had less of a say and religion was by far the more important factor; thats why the Albanians, Greeks and Slavs rallied around Kastriotis.

Neither Greeks nor Serbs rallied around Kastriot. When Scanderbeg asked George Brankovic for aid against the Turks, Brankovic declined.
The region that was his kingdom was purely middle to northern Albania. Territories that did not include any greek populations.

About Despotate of Epirus and greeks, joined to the claims about the greek ancestry of G.Kastrioti>>>We know that an Albanian feudal/prince/despot reigned in the center of Epirus before the times of G.K....his name was Gjin Bue Shpata....just to see the parts of the name its clear he was Albanian.So was Skanderbeg. About the 2-head flag too many nobil families had it for their symbol (in diferent ways).Arianiti Family too.As they were (princes)they did many marriages with other nobil Families and we know that wasnt important ethnicity but the polical-social possition.
Now by the otoman Defter (names and families who paid taxes) its easy to know what ethnicity these population in Epirus were before anyone of them turned in muslim.We find in majority number names like...Dede,Gjoke,Gjin,Gjon,Gjergj,Mehilli,Merkuri .........and too many other....strange that greeks used such names at those times.
Never them were the suddits of a greek Prince.I dont know if there was a greek entite at those times beside of that religious(territorial and linguistic having present that Greek language was the oficial and cultural language of the Byzantine Empire(like latin) ,is there any prove of that?
I think that today greeks have too many reasons to claim the north of their actual space...without that their history would be only a derivate action of the history. All comes from north .....in south just nothing.
From 100 heroes of greek indipendece(1821) 90 were arvanitis (Arberesh,Arber>Alban,Albanians).They still speak their language,its just Albanian not a Greek dialect.They hadn't an Alphabet at those times,their churches were in Greek letters and they didnt care to write history they made it.Now suddenly those are all Greek.Propaganda of Megali Idea made it.
Never in Kastrioti History was mentioned...."for his greeks, for Greece,Hellas and so on" just anytime as Greek because all orthodoxs was called like that,catholics like Latins and than muslims like Turks.....
One thing is sure : that today Greeks even if they are "Hellenic'',Arvanitis or else.....that they speak oficialy the same language of the oficial one of the B.Empire(the reasons are wellknown) enough diferent from antic greek, but not all Empire was greek by ethnicity.....Megali Idea is the same with the NECHTERTANIA of the serbs?????? (it claims the Great Serbia even in Thesaloniki and those coasts) Yes they are in their form and mentality.For 150 years they had made enough to give people hate and violence.Genocide and deportations has been their rule.There was no way to make an albanian land> serb or greek.

In the future just post the...collection of your thoughts in this thread (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/anti-greek-macedonia-propaganda/627-f-y-r-o-ms-best-one-liners-gems-post-here.html). You will save our time to copy/paste your posts each time. :rolleyes:

From 100 heroes of greek indipendece(1821) 90 were arvanitis (Arberesh,Arber>Alban,Albanians).

Ωπα,κοψε κατι=cut something.Even if 99 out of 100 heroes of the Greek Revolution were arvanites,vlachs or whatsoever and they were arvanitophone,vlachophone,slavophone apart from that 1 out of the 100 who spoke greek,ALL of them fought for the indipendence of the Greek State.Not for the Albanian State or other.There are persons ,for example vlachophones, who donated great part of their property if not all of it to the Greek State constructing hospitals,libraries,schools,halls IN Greece.Why didn't they donate them to Albania ,for example?

Megali Idea is the same with the NECHTERTANIA of the serbs?????? (it claims the Great Serbia even in Thesaloniki and those coasts) Yes they are in their form and mentality.For 150 years they had made enough to give people hate and violence.Genocide and deportations has been their rule.There was no way to make an albanian land> serb or greek.

Greece is the only state that does not have claims on other countries in the region.Is the only economically advanced country in the balkans and it is practicaly helping all the other countries ,and their citizens, to evolve and have a better life.Your analysis on the megali idea issue ,of one century ago, is rather simplistic and partial.Since you talk about "Genocide and deportations" why don't you speak of those that the greek people suffered too?I have heard for example that once there were Greek people leaving in a place called in the past Eastern Rumelia.Weren't they deported?But you see serious people look the facts based on international treaties (population exchange between Greece and Bulgaria in this case) ,feel sorry about the sorrow and the pain of the people involved and look to the future so as to have a peacefull life,they and their children.

From 100 heroes of greek indipendece(1821) 90 were arvanitis (Arberesh,Arber>Alban,Albanians).


Name them. All 90 out of 100.


And do not call Arvanites Albanians, they know nothing of the name Shqiptar. They know nothing of your people. They were viewing themselves as Greeks before your people even started calling themselves Shqiptar.

Soon i will take their names ,i am not an expert even a historian or paid to be the first here.About Arvanites for one thing i think u can be sure : their mother language is not greek and no one cant denie its not albanian.As i had said before u understand people by religion, no matter what they are.If this is your point >>>U are ok.they are orthodox even Skanderbeg was even many of my parents are,but none greek.
About Albanian/Shqipetar/Arber/Arvanitis and so on u must first know that Arberia was just a principate,and for what is understood today as albanian(by forigners) wasnt living just in that territor.They had emigrate for centuries and just kept their language and u just continued(kept) to call them Arvan-itis(v-b , n-r = Arber + itis by greek)we cant say they kept a very strong identity beside language and tradition.After indipendece(1821) they felt after 400 years free from turks like u and felt equal to the others,religion(after discrimination)too, why didnt them do that things of schools and libraries.Why didnt they do it in Albania? i ask u when?when Albania was still under Turkia, or during the transition years between 2 WW.How were our diplomatic relations?and what to say when Alb was under Dictator E.Hoxha? with Greece wasnt only The Cold WAR but the real state of war too.
Be sure they had made enough for their country just writing about them.U must know about Aristidh Kola and his Books.if u find and read him , u must understand a lot.For what he wrote he was killed.

About Arvanites for one thing i think u can be sure : their mother language is not greek and no one cant denie its not albanian.
Linguistic connection or adoption of a language does not prove ethnic background. If it did, we'd all be British or any other english speaking ethnicity you'd like to mention.

As i had said before u understand people by religion, no matter what they are.If this is your point >>>U are ok.they are orthodox even Skanderbeg was even many of my parents are,but none greek.

If this was the case, then the Spata, Liosi or the Bardouniotes (all Albanian and not Arvanites) would have been considered our brethen. But based on the fact that they never were considered as such, you can see that religion is not the basic factor.


Be sure they had made enough for their country just writing about them.U must know about Aristidh Kola and his Books.if u find and read him , u must understand a lot.For what he wrote he was killed.
Yeah, Aristeidis Kollias, the lawyer that wrote the questionable book.
As for his death, you should inform the nationalist fools that promote the fairy tale of his poisoning that they should at least show some respect towards the deceased, since the man died from CANCER !!!!

Orphic, your thinking dellusionaly. Read the article that I posted from Hammond in the other topic; free speech forum on the Alb linguistic topic. I can post more articles later if you want.

I cant post html's yet.

I do not doubt the Greek character of modern days Arvanities. I do not deny their Greek character nor the fact that their contributions have been to Greek people.

However, can you please explain to me why they carry hellenized versions of Alb surnames? Lekas, Gjokas, Gjikas,Dhimas,Kolas, Dedes, Kriezis, Pepas. I can go on and on with these names.

Can you tell me what these names mean? I sure can translate them for you? They are Christian names morphed into Albanian vernacular. These are the names many Arvanites carry? If these people were Greeks originally then they would carry Albanized versions of Greek names. These names have Greek origins, however they are Christian names.

Linguistic connection or adoption of a language does not prove ethnic background. If it did, we'd all be British or any other english speaking ethnicity you'd like to mention.

This is an international forum, using the lingua franca of the world. Most of the Greeks here seem to be from the diaspora... It's not the same at all. How would a people simply lose their language and adopt new one? Albanian influence was not that big then.

You are argued your point for the reason that you fear Albs claiming these people or dont want to connect with Albs, but their origins are attested by others.

If this was the case, then the Spata, Liosi or the Bardouniotes (all Albanian and not Arvanites) would have been considered our brethen. But based on the fact that they never were considered as such, you can see that religion is not the basic factor.

There was no such thing as Albanian during those times. Even the Turkish Arnavut comes from the Greek Arvanite. The Albanians in Italy call themselves Arberesh while the Croat Albs called themselves Arbanitasi. The Vlachs called Christian Albs "Arbanese". This is a universal thing. Are you telling me all these people did not have Alb origins but rather Greek one? Are you saying that these people are wrong and you are right?

I dont expect to change your view, your too paranoid. But Ill just say that what you are arguing is not very much accepted in academic circles.

Here is a comprehensive list:

kinis=Yannis, Gkiokas=Yiorghos

Kepas=kremidi (onion), Kriezis=Mavrokefalos (blackhead), Kriekoukis=kokkinokefalos (redhead), Lepouras=Lagos (Rabit), Boukouras=omorfos (beautiful), Bouras=genaios (brave), Skourtis=kontos (short), Tsalas=koutsos, Fourikis=kotetsi, Pliakas=sevasmios gerontas (respectful elder), Pyrpyris=eksartomenos (dependent), Pliotas=Mpolikos, sostos (plenty, right), Votsis=mikro paidi, moutsos (little kid), Zotos=kirios, theos (lord\sir, god), Koskos=kokalo (bone), Korpas=kormi, kormos (body), Krieklokis=adeio kefali (empty head) , Kriemadis=megalos, kefalas ,

Arvanitis, Arvanitidis, Arvanitopoulos, Arvanitakis, Arnaoutis, Arnaoutoglou, Tzimas, Tzavelas, Tsiamis, Tsamis, Liapis, Laliotis, Miaoulis, Vokos, Kokkas-Kokkidis,Kokkizas, Kikizas, Gkikizas (Kefali, Head), Liotsis (filos, friend), Lialios (big brother), Liamis=aloni, Liaros=pardalos, Lioymis (makarios,kalotichos), Liakouris (gimnos-naked, nichterida-bat), Bardis (leukos, white), Bourdas (tsouvali), Pallas-Pallis (spathi-sword), Prapas-Prapopoulos (anthropos anapodos, kakos - evil), Spatas (tsekouri, hammer), Trimis (antrios stratiotis - brave soldier), Tselios (prositos, anthropos tou kosmou - man of the world), Tsunis (boy)

Greeks in Albania carry Greek names. They are very very obvious. This would not make sense however. How have these Greeks maintained their surnames under Albanian influence and these Greeks have not?

Not just Christian names but non-Christian names also: Kryezeze for instance?

Why didnt they do it in Albania? i ask u when?when Albania was still under Turkia, or during the transition years between 2 WW.How were our diplomatic relations?and what to say when Alb was under Dictator E.Hoxha? with Greece wasnt only The Cold WAR but the real state of war too.
Be sure they had made enough for their country just writing about them.

This argument is very similar to the theories skopjans use so as to justify their absence as ethnic "macedonians" in every cultural,military,diplomatic or political occasion (for example the balkan war's treaties,WW1 and 2) until 1945.That they were poor with few possessions and not a country of their own.Now,even before the foundation of the Hellenic State after the Greek Revolution,one can find monuments constructed in different places than the greek soil,for example the church San Giorgio dei Greci in Venice built in 16th century, with a clear Greek stamp that testimony the fact that he who felt to belong to a precise ethnic/national group he demonstrated it in various occasions.Other example in a different field is the Greek newspaper published in Vienna by Rigas Fereos decades before Greece's liberation from the Ottoman rule.The non grecophone Greeks among them the arvanites too,did not choose to contribute to the development of Greece -which was free after 1821- and something else, but did so because they were attached and devoted only to the hellenic idea.

Orphic, your thinking dellusionaly. Read the article that I posted from Hammond in the other topic; free speech forum on the Alb linguistic topic. I can post more articles later if you want.

I cant post html's yet.

I do not doubt the Greek character of modern days Arvanities. I do not deny their Greek character nor the fact that their contributions have been to Greek people.

However, can you please explain to me why they carry hellenized versions of Alb surnames? Lekas, Gjokas, Gjikas,Dhimas,Kolas, Dedes, Kriezis, Pepas. I can go on and on with these names.

Can you tell me what these names mean? I sure can translate them for you? They are Christian names morphed into Albanian vernacular. These are the names many Arvanites carry? If these people were Greeks originally then they would carry Albanized versions of Greek names. These names have Greek origins, however they are Christian names.

I see your point of logic but if we were to look into it again, then according to the way you think, then people with surnames similar to Habibakis, Kehagias, Zaimis, Pesmazoglou, Aslanis..etc just as the vast majority of Pontians must be of Turkish descent (if anyone can define what a Turk actually is) since their names are based on Turkish words, those with names like Karotsieris, Kasieris..etc should be of Italian descent for the same reason.. etc

The history of the region called Albania and the movements of people seems to be obscure. But, we know that in 1322 Albanians did not constitute the majority in the South (specifically Durres) as it has been accounted for by Robert Elsie who is considered the authority on Albanian history. Interestingly enough, while according to Simon Fitzsimmons (who R.Elsie quotes), the Albanians were not the majority of the population and had only recently appeared in the area, their language seemed to have been widely spoken along the shores. This could be the reason you're looking for.


This is an international forum, using the lingua franca of the world. Most of the Greeks here seem to be from the diaspora... It's not the same at all. How would a people simply lose their language and adopt new one? Albanian influence was not that big then.

As I said above while the region's history is obscure, we know that in regions where the Albanians did not constitute the majority, the Albanian language (I say Albanian even though the text does not clarify this as a fact but refers to it as a "language of its own") was widely spoken.

But the fact that this is an international forum is beside the point. While english is the lingua franca, so was Hellenic during antiquity and the Byzantine era. Under the logic of whoever speaks a specific language must be considered related to a specific ethnicity during the time of the Hellenistic and Byzantine eras, the Hellenes as an ethnicity should have been composed of several million people with total disregard to their true origins.

This is actually similar to Virginia Woolf's claims that the population of Athens was not related to the ancients and by doing so imply total alteration of the Hellenic population, because she, being taught the ancient form of the language (most probably under the Erasmic pronounciation) noticed that the people of Athens did not understand her when she spoke to them in the "language of Perikles".


You are argued your point for the reason that you fear Albs claiming these people or dont want to connect with Albs, but their origins are attested by others.

Fear that Albanians would claim them..
If you want to claim Botsaris, Boboulina or any single one of those that faught for the independence of Hellas, hell you're free to do so for all I care.
But just think how rediculous you'd look, when someone asks you why you find pride in the deeds of those that faught against and killed your true ancestors.



There was no such thing as Albanian during those times. Even the Turkish Arnavut comes from the Greek Arvanite. The Albanians in Italy call themselves Arberesh while the Croat Albs called themselves Arbanitasi. The Vlachs called Christian Albs "Arbanese". This is a universal thing. Are you telling me all these people did not have Alb origins but rather Greek one? Are you saying that these people are wrong and you are right?

Actually Albanians are refered to as separate people to the Arvanites, the term used to define them, was Illyrian. So no matter where the name derives from you still have to clarify who you're related to, the people which Byzantine texts refer to by the term "Illyrians" or to those they refer to as "Arvanites.
As you see its actually a two way street. If you insist on Arvanites= Albanians then you immediately alienate yourself to those refered to as Illyrians.


I dont expect to change your view, your too paranoid. But Ill just say that what you are arguing is not very much accepted in academic circles.

Paranoid, deluted.. OK.
Accepted or not, the so-called academic circles are still debating not only the Arvanites question but also the Albanian-Illyrian one. So untill they do come to definite conclusions I really don't see why my views are deemed more paranoid than yours are.

To end this, I'll just mention that when Berisa claimed that the Arvanites were an Albanian minority in Hellas, their rejection and fury to this statement was well recorded in all media. So you may claim them, but the truth of the issue is that they don't want anything to do with your version of their history.

Did you read the article I brought from Hammond?

I see your point of logic but if we were to look into it again, then according to the way you think, then people with surnames similar to Habibakis, Kehagias, Zaimis, Pesmazoglou, Aslanis..etc just as the vast majority of Pontians must be of Turkish descent (if anyone can define what a Turk actually is) since their names are based on Turkish words, those with names like Karotsieris, Kasieris..etc should be of Italian descent for the same reason.. etc

Your talking about common names or words. Things like Kara. Hell in Alb there are also people with such names Cerciz. However they are adoptions of a dominant people. On top of it all, Turks were the dominant culture of Anatolia by then, and a heavily assimilating culture. The Turks had an empire, Albs did not.

I am talking about vernacular adoptions of a people without any real dominance over a cultural zone.

. But, we know that in 1322 Albanians did not constitute the majority in the South (specifically Durres) as it has been accounted for by Robert Elsie who is considered the authority on Albanian history. Interestingly enough, while according to Simon Fitzsimmons (who R.Elsie quotes), the Albanians were not the majority of the population and had only recently appeared in the area, their language seemed to have been widely spoken along the shores. This could be the reason you're looking for.

Yea, they also mention that these people were in a way assimilated in a city, they were the underlings, the barbarians. A people of little cultural significance.

If you insist on Arvanites= Albanians then you immediately alienate yourself to those refered to as Illyrians.

The Byzantines were classicalists. They looked to constantly connect people of a region with the people that lived there in antiquity. It's not whether they believed Albs were the Illyrians or not, they simply stated such because in the times of Herodutos and other Greek historians, the people living in the area of Albania were called the Illyrians. The same way the historians called Bulgarians "Pannonians". The world stays the same in their eyes.

But anyway, Bartholomeo Minio in his "Histories of Nauplion" (You can find it on the internet, great history) seems to assign no other name to the Arvanities then "Albanians".

Arvanities however is just the Greek vernacular of Arbanese, which in turn was the medieval name of Albanians. Like I said, every other people said the same. I gave you the examples. If you are now telling me that only "Greek Albanians" went by this name then you are fighting every other neighbor.

Under the logic of whoever speaks a specific language must be considered related to a specific ethnicity during the time of the Hellenistic and Byzantine eras, the Hellenes as an ethnicity should have been composed of several million people with total disregard to their true origins.

The actual Greek speakers of antiquity are actually very very limited to urban enviroments(if your talking about the Greek east), they were not too many. At least not compared to the latins. But this is besides the point. There is one major difference that separates the two, that is urbanization. Greeks were urbanized, the Arvanities/Albanians were not. They were an entirely rural people. That means they are the last to be assimilated.

How I still dont quite understand by this comment.

Here is an example of assimilation. For hundreds of years my grandmother's ancestors lived in the Greek speaking town of Narta near Vlora. The area was isolated and surrounded by Albanians. My grandmother decided to move to Vlore during her youth and became thuroughly Albanized. had she remained rural she would have kept her culture.

The same with the Arvanities. If they were "assimilated Greeks" then the Albanians would have had cultural control of the cities. The rural areas are last to be assimilated. The Arvanities did not come from Durres, or from Valona.

Sorry but no matter how you cut it, it's still balloney.

Not to mention the entire culture of the Arvanities is exactly like that of Albanians. The idea of the faras, the non-centralized villages, and in the old days it was semi-nomadic character.

I'll just mention that when Berisa claimed that the Arvanites were an Albanian minority in Hellas, their rejection and fury to this statement was well recorded in all media. So you may claim them, but the truth of the issue is that they don't want anything to do with your version of their history.

Sorry mate, it's not my version of history, it's you paranoid. I dont claim any of them, look at my first comment. They were people who gave their all for the Greek nation and idea.

The first statement is largely a product of the modern day social situation.

The Accounts of Bartolomeo Mineo: Administration of Nauplion (http://www2.let.uu.nl/Solis/anpt/ejos/EJOS-III.5-text.html)
Article from Hammond that I posted (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-greek-forum/1444-illyrian-ancestry-albanians-5.html)

In Durres albs were minority? May be. Durres at those times was a metropol of the empire. the greatest port in the west. Merchants and other kinds of persons were normal to live in such cities.What would u expect?

I just feel sorry for these ''greeks''called arvanites that had suffered so much and had lose their language in history,thnx God u are making them forget the ''forigner language''.

But we cant forget history and those Mideval documents of the Latin Lords calling tribes from North ( Albania) to populate entire empty areas of Greece. In those documents there are called specificly ''Arbanesis'', ''Albanoi'', ''Albanians''. they weren't just a train or a bus but hundred thousands people , that now as u say : their surnames are albanized or their language is a dialect of greek, pure propaganda, ill mentality.

So , as u say , there were Illyrians, Albanians, there are these ''arvanitis'' and so on.....????strange but there is nothing in common there....That are just THOUSANDS of similar names (let say all that that isnt greek or turk), 2 ''different'languages that if those are listen carefuly seem a pure dialect of each other......traditions and so on.......oh sorry i forgot what is the most important thing for you : the religion. Well u must know Oriental and Asiatic religions killed Hellenic culture , and the worse of that is that those has become trendy.But not for albanians, and that is what preocupate u most.

Hermes just relax this isnt network 54 and no one is attacking you. your above post was all over the place.

No one is saying arvanitika isnt a dialect of Albanian. the question is how did they come to speak the language. Like how did the Karamanlides (pure turkish surename) come to speak Turkish? No one not least the Turks ever claimed them as Turkish racially

Your talking about common names or words. Things like Kara. Hell in Alb there are also people with such names Cerciz. However they are adoptions of a dominant people. On top of it all, Turks were the dominant culture of Anatolia by then, and a heavily assimilating culture. The Turks had an empire, Albs did not.

I am talking about vernacular adoptions of a people without any real dominance over a cultural zone.

I know what you're talking about you just fail to understand what I'm saying.
Under your logic, the Hellenic minority in Albania is not related to the Hellenes but is composed of Albanians and thus should not be titled as a Hellenic minority.

We should come to this conclusion because their names are predominantly Albanian, fine examples are E. Doules and P.Doumas.
Do you probably insist that these people are Albanians based on their name and the obvious fact that they do speak Albanian or some dialectic form of it?

How did these people obtain their Albanian surname and is their surname and their knowledge of the Albanian language enough to deprive them of their purely Hellenic roots and origin?
I'd say, definitely not.

Yea, they also mention that these people were in a way assimilated in a city, they were the underlings, the barbarians. A people of little cultural significance.
Indeed they are described as barbarians and this could lead us to conclude that their influence was minor. BUT while the use of the term 'barbarians' may imply something related to this notion, we can not accept it as a possibility, because we'd then have to ignore the fact that he clearly indicates their influence, when he inform us that they speak "a language of their own" (most probably meaning Albanian)



The Byzantines were classicalists. They looked to constantly connect people of a region with the people that lived there in antiquity. It's not whether they believed Albs were the Illyrians or not, they simply stated such because in the times of Herodutos and other Greek historians, the people living in the area of Albania were called the Illyrians. The same way the historians called Bulgarians "Pannonians". The world stays the same in their eyes.
Quite true, but IF they were the same people as you seem to insist, then why do the Byzantine texts, the very people that as you say "the world stays the same in their eyes" make the clear distinction of Arvanites and Illyrians in several texts, since the world doesn't change in their eyes, why would they use a different term when describing the people that you support were the same ?

But anyway, Bartholomeo Minio in his "Histories of Nauplion" (You can find it on the internet, great history) seems to assign no other name to the Arvanities then "Albanians".

Do read note 8 in Chapter four "Kladas Uprising" and you'll see the distinction between them as mentioned above. Despite the comment added the distinction does exist, so what is the reason for it?

Arvanities however is just the Greek vernacular of Arbanese, which in turn was the medieval name of Albanians. Like I said, every other people said the same. I gave you the examples. If you are now telling me that only "Greek Albanians" went by this name then you are fighting every other neighbor.
I'm not claiming that the term Arvanites is a Hellenic term, but that through the medieval era, while Albanians were defined by the term 'Illyrians' the Arvanites were not always described as such, hence why we find this distinction in several accounts. Indifferent of its meaning, origin or common use, we find the distinction mentioned but no explanation for it.
Its simple actually.


The same with the Arvanities. If they were "assimilated Greeks" then the Albanians would have had cultural control of the cities. The rural areas are last to be assimilated. The Arvanities did not come from Durres, or from Valona.
You speak of regions being assimilated, does this imply some foreign origin of the Albanians and if not, then what was the reason for this assimilation to take place?

You also reject the possibility of the above mentioned regions being the place of their origin. While not really informed in Albanian geography, we can definitely say that they did indeed come from the South as their language which is related to the Tosk dialect clearly indicates.

I'm not claiming that the term Arvanites is a Hellenic term, but that through the medieval era, while Albanians were defined by the term 'Illyrians' the Arvanites were not always described as such, hence why we find this distinction in several accounts. Indifferent of its meaning, origin or common use, we find the distinction mentioned but no explanation for it.
Its simple actually.

In the document of Kladas Uprising there is this distinction as i understood.

Is there anywhere available online this book or should i buy it?

No worries i found it from the link Theodosius provided in the previous page.

My mom's side are predominantly speakers of Arvanitika but they all consider themselves Greek.My mom can still speak it.Her mother spoke better Arvanitika than Greek and the same for her grandmother.

The only words I know:
(Phonetically spelt)

Chi Bon?------------How are you?
Mir-----------------Good
Grua---------------Woman
Booka--------------Bread
Chi Thote?---------What does that mean or What's he saying?My grandmother would ask that to my mom every time I spoke English

And of course,some swear words:

A Kithou!-----------F You!
Bithas--------------Ass
Hanne moon--------Eat S--t

But where is this distinction? In File 8?? I didnt see anything.

Nsminc my grandmother from my mothers side is perhaps an Arvanite.

She has an Arvanite surname Flampouri at least i think.

And i always remember my grand-father callin her Arvanitiko Kefali---->stubborn.

She has no idea of her roots and she has no recollection of another language other than Greek, and it hasnt come to her that she might be descended from Arvanites.

However for some reason this surname doesnt sound Greek to my ears, except of course for the flampouro, to enetiko.

But where is this distinction? In File 8?? I didnt see anything.




You misunderstood, its not in file 8 but in Chapter 4 note #8.
You can download the pdf HERE (www2.let.uu.nl/solis/anpt/EJOS/pdf2/W06.PDF)

Thank you man, ill give it a read.

[QUOTE]
[The only words I know:
(Phonetically spelt)

Chi Bon?------------How are you?
Mir-----------------Good
Grua---------------Woman
Booka--------------Bread
Chi Thote?---------What does that mean or What's he saying?My grandmother would ask that to my mom every time I spoke English

And of course,some swear words:

A Kithou!-----------F You!
Bithas--------------Ass
Hanne moon--------Eat S--t
__________________
/QUOTE]

Albanian/ arvanitika / english
bytha/e bithas ass
grua grua woman
ch'thote che thote what is he/she saying
ch'i thote chi thote what is he/she saying to u him/her

Buke/a Buka(but as nsminc was spelling in english wrote booka) Bread
mir mir good
ch'bon? chi bon? how are u? central alb dialect

For the others i dont want to do coments.
So not the most of these words but all them are 100% albanian,Nothing new.
The name arvanites is the same like Arberesh but changed by the greek phonetic rules.Still thinking those are too diferent????
About the roots of a singular person or family, its normal that the most had forgoten the specific story of their generations.How many of you knows who were his antenats before 400-600 years ago??And who knows about their roots one by one........??? Let wake up people, dreams are just dreams.

Personally from my fathers side Maniot, i pretty much know everything, from my mothers side, whose father is Smyrnios and originally Cappadokian fluent in Greek, Turkish and Albanian, but also his wife a Flampouri i know nothing.

As for the Arvanites yes the evidence suporting that they were originally from the same root as the Albanians is indeed overwhelming.

However current day Arvanites feel more Greek than Alb, and that is undisputable as well.

Btw since you know arvanite does Flampouri mean anything in your language?

Back to Scanderbeg:

Here is a very very interesting source. A Serbian Medieval document of the Chilandar in Mt. Athos states that:

Najezda Turaka u zemlje Balkanskog poluostrva, dakako, zahvatila je i njihovo nadiranje u Arbaniju. Pod uticajem navedenih ženidbenih veza i uplivom slovenske simbioze, I. Kastriot je sa svoja tri sina: Repošem, Kostadinom i Đurđem, kupio u Hilandaru, za sebe i svoje sinove, bratstvene udele, što im je davalo pravo da se tamo skolne i prebivaju, u slučaju ako bi im Turci oteli njihove zemlje i proterali ih iz otadžbine. Sporazum o ovoj kupovini obavio se 1430. god. u Hilandaru. Tom prilikom je I. Kastriot sa navedenim sinovima, sklopio ugovor sa hilandarskim igumanom Atanasijem. Prema tom ugovoru, uprava manastira Hilandara ustupila je I. Kastrioti i njegovim sinovima, za stanovanje za "šeset florina'' pirg Sv. Đorđa.[8] Ova kula je sačuvana sve do današnjih dana u Hilandaru i nosi naziv Arbanaški pirg.[9] Pored toga, Ivan i njegova tri sina, imali su pravo na četiri adrfata, maslinjake, vinograde i ostale prinadležnosti koje su pripadale tome pirgu.[10]

Arbanasi pirg = Graveyard of the Albanians/Albanian Graveyard. John was burried there.

U Arhivu manastira Hilandara među srpskim dokumentima pod brojevima 82 i 105 čuvaju se dve povelje od kojih je prvu, dakle onu pod br. 82, izdao arbanaski velikaš Ivan Kastriot manastiru Hilandaru, a drugu, onu pod br. 105, izdao je manastir Hilandar Ivanu Kastriotu. Obe povelje su već davno objavljene tako da ovoga puta verovatno ništa novo neće biti saopšteno.[1] S druge strane ovo je možda zgodna prilika da se na oba dokumenta podsetimo i ukažemo ponovo na njihovu zanimljivu sadržinu.

Highlighted part translates as:

On Archive from the monestary Hilandara between Serbian documents under number 82 and 105 there's two saved documents and on the first one under number. 82, the first one is put out by the great Albanian Ivan Kastrioti in the monastery Hilandar, however the second one under number 105, is put out by the monastery Hilandar on Ivan Kastrioti.

Sources:[Projekat Rastko - Skadar] Stanovnistvo slovenskog porijekla u Albaniji (http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-al/zbornik1990/dsindik-povelje_l.php)
[Projekat Rastko - Skadar] Slovenska simbioza porodice Djurdja Kastriota Skenderbega (http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-al/istorija/tvukanovic-kastriot_l.php)

Those arguing that Scanderbeg was Greek are arguing against all evidence. Every record pointing to him shows that he was Albanian

Under your logic, the Hellenic minority in Albania is not related to the Hellenes but is composed of Albanians and thus should not be titled as a Hellenic minority.

Contrary to the Arvanities, the Greek minority of Albania carry obvious Greek names. No matter how you Albanize them(for instance some of the Greeks who moved to Tirana Albanized their names) they still sound very very Greek.

Quite true, but IF they were the same people as you seem to insist, then why do the Byzantine texts, the very people that as you say "the world stays the same in their eyes" make the clear distinction of Arvanites and Illyrians in several texts, since the world doesn't change in their eyes, why would they use a different term when describing the people that you support were the same ?

Because the fact that there are a group called the Arvanities.

Here is an example: During the 3rd century a Greek historian called Dexippos wrote a history of the Gothic invasion. In it he interchangably used the terms Scythian with Goth. This is done very very often.

Do you probably insist that these people are Albanians based on their name and the obvious fact that they do speak Albanian or some dialectic form of it?

Name - check
language - check

Am I missing something here?


As for their origin. Thats not so conclusive. Hammond argued strongly that their origins were actually from northern Albania.

Akritas have you ever read Martin Barletius work? The context inwhich he uses Epirotian is not in anyway related to some kind of separate identity, rather in the middle ages until around the late 1800's, Albania was associated as Epirus.


The question here is if you have read it or even understand the difference between "late 1800's" which you mention and "1450-1513" which is when he lived and wrote his biography making your analogy totally fallacious.


In Epirotic (Albanian), this town is known as Ndenscati (Nënshat), meaning 'under Sapa' (1), from which derives the title of the bishop, Bishop of Sapatensis..................


Actually this quote makes no reference to Kastriotis and the word Albanian added in the parenthesis is non-existant in the original but a later addition by R.Elsie. Its interesting to note that just above, Frang Bardhi writes:

This town was also destroyed, probably by the Romans during their war with Pyrrhus, king of the Epirotes, i.e. the Albanians.

Which is actually quite absurd, since Pyrrus is under no condition related to the Albanians.. but thats a different topic.


This is corroborated by Scanderbeg himself who replies to the prince of Taranto after the prince calls the Albanians sheep:
Yes the Albanians but what does he say about himself ?

My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.

and the just a couple of lines down separates the Epiroti from the Albanians by saying:

I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish.
If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty.

Its actually quite evident that he separates the two and a) supports his own ancestry by connecting himself to Pyrrus and the Epiroteans and b) attempts to glorify his Albanian