What should the future of the EU be?

[Draco]

What do YOU think the future of the EU should be? What is in Greece's and the world's best interests? The proposed Reform Treaty (to be signed in December) brings the EU closer to a federation as member states will be giving up the right to veto certain laws affecting their internal affairs (enlargement, foreign policy and defence decisions must still be taken unanimously, criminal law will not be affected, and some other issues).

Some factoids to take into account before deciding:

Federation: a European Federation would be the most powerful state in the world with the largest economy, large armed forces and a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. The drawbacks of this are that Greece would lose total control of its foreign policy, its armed forces and, to a certain extent, its internal affairs (including recognition or lack thereof of ethnic minorities). On the bright side, EU laws are usually of very high quality, especially when pertaining to employment or environmental issues that individual national governments don't want to bother themselves with.
Enlargement: enlargement weakens the union especially if Turkey were to join, hence why the USA and their British Trojan horse (and Americans have the audacity to accuse Greece of being Russia's Trojan horse in the EU!) are so vigorously promoting it and pro-EU states (France, Germany, Austria...) are opposing it. Enlargement excluding Turkey would probably eventually extend to: Albania, Bosnia, Croatia, FYROM, Georgia, Montenegro, Serbia and Ukraine although this process will realistically take decades.
Withdrawal: Greece receives funding from the EU amounting to 3-4 billion euros annually (in the past the figure used to be much higher); the use of these funds can be seen throughout Greece - works in progress usually have a sign outside them stating something like "partially funded by the EU". Furthermore, Greece enjoys a certain amount of protection within the EU (both politically and financially) as well as the ability to pressure its troublesome neighbors (Albania, FYROM, Turkey) usually in the form of vetoing aid or accession negotiations. All these would be given up if Greece were to withdraw.

[Mygdonia]

The EU as a political, economic & military body is in its infancy.

It is difficult to ascertain what the future holds.

It has loads of potential and the people in general are n favour of it.

However the Eurocrats that are currently running the E.U are extremely left-leaning. Nothing will ever be accomplished when lazy & corrupt left-wingers control many positions of power.

What Europe requires is to unite fully.

History has shown us that confederations, federations and nations unite only in one singular manner....and that is war.

E.U requires a united effort and kick someones ass. I say Turkey is the first step in the name of E.U unity and nothing else.

[Draco]

I see most people are voting for the second option (which is also the most likely outcome). Would any of you like to post a comment about why you chose that particular option?

I haven't voted yet because I still haven't decided. Here are some more of my ponderings:

A serious (and rather obvious) cost of federalization would be the loss of national independence, and for what? All the unquestionably beneficial aims of federalization could be achieved within the present supranational structure: the EU can negotiate (and threaten) for its energy and other supplies (whether from Russia, the Middle East or elsewhere). Incurring the displeasure of the EU, even in its current form, is hardly desirable for any country so things beneficial for all the countries (or even the world as a whole such as climate change) can be insisted on and backed with sanctions for non-compliance. Imagine for example if China or even the USA refuse to cut back on carbon emissions enough when everyone else has (this is what is happening now and it's worrying me), a EU embargo on their products, considering that the EU is one of their main markets, would be disastrous for them effectively forcing them to comply (although this would likely be a last resort to stop them messing up the environment further). From a more nationalistic point of view whether Turkey joins or not, their territorial claims against Greece and their occupation of Cypriot territory will not be tolerated. For them to join, they have to stop - if they remain outside and the negotiations end, the EU is hardly going to take kindly to a state challenging its borders and occupying part of it.

All this could be too idealized though. As foreign policy has to be unanimous, do you think all countries would agree to the above examples? I bet the UK at least would not, so giving up national sovereignty to what effectively may end up an unworkable dump is folly when the same unworkable arrangement can be achieved with individual states are conducting their own foreign policy for their own interest is also an option. In effect, in retaining the current integration level, we'd have the best of all possible arrangements.

[Truth Bearer]

The best solution for Greece is for Turkey to join the family.As long as Cyprus gets fairly solved and E.U law prevails.

[Makedonia22]

The EU should be dismantled / Greece should withdraw from the EU.

I'm Greek, not "European", I don't want to be apart of the future "United States of Europe".

I don't want the "EU" to dictate our laws.

I don't want the "Euro" currency.

I also don't want open borders for anyone to cross.

[Mygdonia]

The E.U is a name of the business.

...and the E.U is more or less one massive business with complex systems, processes..etc..

I am not sure if any of you have ever worked in the corporate world.

But let me assure you that, the only managers that get results are the "headkickers"...not the "rhetorics"

The rhetorics usually find themselves back on the unemployment que quite fast. The "headkickers" are the managers that know how to make things happen and provide non-negligible solutions unlike the rhetorics that always talk but never do.

So the E.U will remain a cesspool of nothing unless a headkikcker comes along from somewhere and pulls this E.U "concept" into place.

If Europe is to be called into arms to fight China , Russia or the U.S for example. It is going to be funnier than watching Benny Hill.

[Draco]

I just found the Wikipedia article on why Norway has not joined the EU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway_and_the_European_Union), they make some interesting points.

Problem is Greece is not as developed as Norway, they can afford to stay out; had Greece stayed out, we would probably be an economically destitute dump (like Turkey). We're still receiving funding though, arguably a reasonable approach would be to wait until the funding days are over and the days when we are expected to contribute to the funding of other countries are about to begin, then withdraw. :rolleyes: Drawback with this is that we'd be at at a strategic disatvantage when compared to Albania, Bulgaria, FYROM and possibly Turkey (you can imagine them all demanding human rights for their alleged respective "minorities" in non-EU member Greece). Greece is no Switzerland or Norway: countries that everyone loves. I don't think we can afford to quit Europe altogether.

As side note, the only political parties in Greece which support withdrawal from EU (I think) are KKE and LAOS.

[Alita]

The EU should be dismantled / Greece should withdraw from the EU.

I'm Greek, not "European", I don't want to be apart of the future "United States of Europe".

I don't want the "EU" to dictate our laws.

I don't want the "Euro" currency.

I also don't want open borders for anyone to cross.

I also don't want the left-wing style immigration policies of the Western world to be forced upon us.

I 2nd U.

[Draco]

Check THIS (http://www.nd.gr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9052&Itemid=177) out. Apparently Nea Dimokratia wants the EU to evolve into an OMOSPONDIA (federation).

[nsminc]

The EU should be dismantled / Greece should withdraw from the EU.

I'm Greek, not "European", I don't want to be apart of the future "United States of Europe".

I don't want the "EU" to dictate our laws.

I don't want the "Euro" currency.

I also don't want open borders for anyone to cross.

I also don't want the left-wing style immigration policies of the Western world to be forced upon us.

I don't know about withdrawing, at least not yet,but I agree with all those points.

[HellenicPride]

The E.U should be dismantled...

[Paulos Melas]

I believe Western Europe should dismantle EU and create a Western European union without any eastern european states, at the same time imposing strict immigration controls.
The member countries to be the traditional centum countries (incl only the western romance countries) along with malta and finland.
This can work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Centum_Satem_map.png

[pankration]

From what I saw from my trip to Europe last summer was that Greece appears to have really benefited from the EU. I don't live there so I can't comment on what the cost is to Greek citizens but compared to Italy and France, Greece is doing great. Greece appears to have modernized nicely, technology is the equal or even the superior to some other countries.
The EU PREVENTS the Americans from controlling their economy so the argument that the EU is the puppet of the US is incorrect. In fact, the US, Canada and Mexico are proposing a similar association in North America in order to compete with the EU.
I like the idea of only Western European countries as they have a common ethos. Allowing Turkey in creates more problems than it solves.