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View Full Version : Collaboration and explusion: Cham Albanians and Zervas (split thread)


TirAlb
11-03-2007, 04:56 PM
How does a youtube video of an Albanian saying he wants to appropriate Greek territory mean Albanians are a threat to Greece?

Albanians have always been the majority in North West FYROM. The impact of Kosovar refugees there are overplayed by FYROManians for political reasons. In Greece there is no Albanian minority (was deported in 1945 due to its collaboration with Axis forces) and today Albanians which first arrived in the 1990s are evenly spread in Greece. We dont have a seperatist problem, and never will.



haha! FYROM actually HAS an Albanian seperatist problem with Albanians making up 25% of your population and meanwhile the government is re-naming airports Alexander the Great and rejecting ANY negotiation of the name issue!

Why dont you try to be honest for a moment and say,That those albanians were killed and ethnic cleansed only because they were Albanians, and muslims, and the responsable for those crimes was the Infamous Axis Collaborator and than Greek hero Napoleon Zerva.

Tsontos
11-03-2007, 08:20 PM
Why dont you try to be honest for a moment and say,That those albanians were killed and ethnic cleansed only because they were Albanians, and muslims, and the responsable for those crimes was the Infamous Axis Collaborator and than Greek hero Napoleon Zerva.

hahahaha Zervas who was one of the most important allies of the British SOE in Europe was Nazi a collaborator and the poor little fez wearing SS-enlisted Chams were not??:clap2:

In World War II, many Chams welcomed the invasion of Greece by Axis forces. A segment of the Muslim Chams were enlisted by Axis forces to assist with the occupation and were responsible for atrocities against Greek and Jewish civilians.

Beginning on June 27, 1944, and continuing through March 1945, EDES resistance partisans operating under British orders, led by Napoleon Zervas, launched a series of attacks on Muslim Cham villages which resulted in the death of roughly 2.500 Chams and expulsion of 20.000-25.000. The surviving Muslim Chams fled to Albania and settled in villages of southern Albania, where today they number over 100,000

Cham Albanians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_Albanians)

Tsontos
11-03-2007, 08:37 PM
Great look the ALbanian Waffen SS had, Nazis with Fezes
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7822/nazisandshipswithfezvg6.jpg


but dont let that stop you from teaching Albanian children such vile "history"
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/7422/bscap031resizefh1.jpg

TirAlb
11-03-2007, 10:28 PM
I said try to be onest,but you can't as i can see.There were Cams that fought with and Cams that fought against Germans.But The Zervas and co crimes were commited against childrens and womans,and all the population was ethnic cleansed.
Zerva was a collaborationist,is wellknown.Indeed i dont even remeber the story that teached me at school,but i remember what my Grandfathers had told to me,and they was both Partizans and communist,so nothing in common with the photos you showed.

Tsontos
11-03-2007, 11:15 PM
Zervas was the chief of EDES, the second largest resistance group in Greece after ELAS. He was as I said one of the chief allies in all occupied Europe of the British and the British SOE.

In November 1942 Zervas agreed to cooperate with the communists to destroy the Georgopotamos bridge, interrupting the German supply lines to Africa for weeks. One of the most significant acts by any resistance group in all of Europe.

The communists (and Albanian nationalists it seems) have claimed Zervas was a collaborator before, but they always struggle to explain how on the one hand he got support for his operations from the British and on the other hand he was a Nazi collaborator :lol:

my Grandfathers had told to me,and they was both Partizans and communist,so nothing in common with the photos you showed.


What did you expect all the Nazi collaborators to do once the Germans retreated? Of course they were going to join the Partisans :lol: Same thing happened in FYROM where in 1941 they raised Bulgarian flags and in 1944 the red hammer and sickel.

Also how do you grandfathers know what Zervas was and why the Chams were expelled? Do you beleive everything they tell you?

Tsontos
11-03-2007, 11:26 PM
"Since most of the German supplies in North Africa travelled over a single railway-line through Greece, it was necessary to cut the line for several weeks, which could only be done by destroying on the the major viaducts north of Athens. Under the command of Zervas, EDES and ELAS fighters successfully attacked the Germans and destroyed the Gorgopotamos railway-viaduct on the night of 25th-26th November."

C.M Woodhouse, Modern Greece, 1968, p246

TirAlb
11-03-2007, 11:53 PM
I was speaking about albanian ww2 history in general,and my grandfathers fought in north Albania so nothing to do with cams.I believe them but i don't pretend to learn history from them,because there are some things called books.

DOCUMENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF CHAM ALBANIANS
IN EXILE, ON GREEK PERSECUTION OF THE CHAMS, SUBMITTED TO THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION OF THE UNITED NATIONS IN 1945

We, the Anti-Fascist Committee of Cham immigrants in Albania, having faith in the democratic and humanitarian principles of the UN, and acting in the name of Cham immigrants in Albania, do hereby address the Investigating Commission concerning our lost rights, oppression, persecutions and massacres committed by Greek Fascists in order to exterminate the Albanian minority in Greece.

In pursuit of the protests and appeals that we have addressed to the Great Allies and the United Nations, we ask for justice with regard to the following:

For 32 years in succession, Greek chauvinist and reactionary cliques, in brutal violation of every humanitarian principle, and in total disregard of international treaties, have carried out a policy of extermination toward the Albanian minority in Greece.

Beginning with the Greek occupation of Chamëria on February 23, 1913, the gang of Deli Janaqi, incited and assisted by the local authorities, massacred without cause whatsoever 72 men, in the brook of Selani, district of Paramithia.

This massacre marked the beginning of the drive to exterminate the Albanian minority, and made clear the orientation of Greek policy toward our population.

The hounding, persecutions, imprisonment, internment, tortures, and plunder carried out on the pretext of disarming [the population] in the years 1914-1921, the terrorist actions of outlaws, and the provocations of Gjen Baire in 1921, reveal the reality of the sufferings to which our population was subjected during the Greek occupation.

Koska, Lopsi, Varfanj, Karbunari, Kardhiqi, Paramithija, Margëllëçi, Arpica, Grykohori, and others, are some of the villages that paid an especially high price as a consequence of the terror.

In 1922-1923, the Greek authorities decided to displace the Moslem element of Chamëria, in exchange for the Greeks in Asia Minor, on the pretext that we were Turks. This shameless act of the Athenian authorities ran into opposition on our part and the intervention of the League of Nations which, upon ascertaining the Albanian nationality of our people, rejected the decision of the Greek Government.

But despite the intervention of the League of Nations, and the solemn commitments undertaken by the Greek Government in Lausanne on January 16, 1923, the authorities in Athens continued their policy of extermination. They resorted to every device to make it difficult for the Albanian element to remain in Chamëria, and confiscated 6,000 hectares of land owned by hundreds of families in Dushk, Gumenicë, Kardhiq, Karbunarë, and others, without compensating them in the least.

The government in Athens settled the immigrants from Asia Minor in Chamëria, with the intention of peopling it with Greeks and creating conditions that would lead to the emigration of the autochthonous Albanian population.

Entire families were forced to abandon their birthplace and migrate to Turkey, Albania, America and elsewhere, and villages like Petrovica and Shendellia were deserted completely by their Albanian inhabitants.probably ancestors of the those two albanians you mentioned in the other topic,and i guess why Chams collaborated some years later.

Under these circumstances, we did not enjoy any national rights, not even the use of our mother tongue. Fanaticism and ignorance were given support, instead of developing our national culture and stimulating progress. Instead of opening schools, they subsidized religious clubs in the Arab language. Ninety-five percent of our population remained illiterate. The province of Chamëria, a fertile and prosperous land, remained backward, without economic development, without communication facilities, and in the hands of money-lenders and monopolists, such as: Koçoni, Pitulejtë, Kufalla, Zhulla, Ringa and others, who impoverished and enslaved the entire region.

In the war against Fascism, and more precisely at its conclusion, the reactionary Monarcho-Fascist forces of Llakë of Suli, which were created by the reaction to serve the occupier under the command of General Napoleon Zerva, turned on and treacherously massacred the Moslem Albanian inhabitants of Chamëria.

At that time, when the troops of ELAS [National Popular Liberation Army] and our troops were committed to fighting the Germans, the leadership of EOEA [National Troops of Greek Guerrilas], in league with the Germans, maneuvered to gain positions to fight a civil war. And when our forces, in keeping with the spirit and decisions of the protocol of Kasartë (Sarafis-Zerva), August, 1944, implemented the orders of the Joint Command in pursuit of the Germans, General Napoleon Zerva, commander of the resistance forces in Epir (ELAS – EOEA), gave orders to massacre the innocent population of Chamëria.

The massacres in Chamëria were a flagrant violation of humanitarian principles, and a shameless disregard for the principles and the nature of the Anti-Fascist struggle. The massacres in Chamëria were a result of the collaboration and agreements with the Germans, who in the process of retreating, let Zerva’s forces take their place. Here is a concrete example of the collaboration between Zerva’s forces and the Germans. Theodhor Vito, the commander of the Zerva forces in the district of Filat, met the commander of the retreating German forces on September 22, 1944 in the village of Panaromen, 3 km. from Filat, just one day before the entrance of Zerva’s forces in Filat. Right after that meeting, and even before the German forces cleared out of Filat entirely, the forces of Theodhor Vito entered Filat. That close collaboration strengthened the position of the Zerva forces, and enabled them to initiate the terror and the massacres on a broad scale in all the districts of Chamëria.

The forces of the X th Division of EOEA, under the command of Col. Vasil Kamaras, and specifically the XVI th Regiment of that division, which was led by Kranja and his aides Lefter Strugari, attorney Stavropullos Ballumi Zotos, the notorious criminals Patazejt and others, entered the town of Paramithia on June 27, 1944. Contrary to their promises and the agreement arrived at between mufti Hasan Abdullaj, on the one hand, and Shapera and the Bishop of Paramithia, on the other, who acted as agents of Zerva, the most ignoble massacres were set in motion. Defenseless men, women and children became targets for the Greek Monarcho-Fascists. The number of the massacred in the town of Paramithia and vicinity reached 600 souls.

On July 28, 1944 the forces of Regiment Nr. 40, commanded by Agores, entered Parg and massacred 52 men, women and children.

The forces of EOEA under the command of Theodhor Vito, Ilija Kaqo, Hristo Mavrudhi, Hristo Kaqo, Hari Dhiamanti and others, first encircled the town of Filat, then on Saturday morning of September 23, 1944 entered the town. The same day they also entered Spatër. They plundered and seized all of the families, and whatever else they found. On the eve of [September] 23 and the dawn of September 24, 1944 there entered also the forces commanded by Kranja, Strugari and others. As soon as these forces arrived, the massacres began. Forty-seven men, women and children were massacred in Filat, while 157 were killed or missing in Spasar, many of whom had gone there from other villages. All of the young women and girls were abused and raped by Zerva’s criminals. A few days later the Monarcho-Fascists rounded up all of the men that remained, and following the decision of a kangaroo court, consisting of Koçinja – president, Staropull – prosecuting attorney, and four other members, 47 innocent Albanians were massacred. In Granicë of Filat are buried the corpses of 46 persons who were slain with knives, and 45 others on the plain bordering the field of Xhelo Meto.

Other families were wiped out, including parents, children and babies in their cribs. Women and young girls were raped. Hundreds of declarations by those who survived, describe the killings and endless suffering. They make plain the crimes and aims of the Monarcho-Fascists in Chamëria.

Here are some examples:
Sanie Bollati of Paramithia was burned alive with gasoline, after her breasts were cut off, and her eyes were plucked out. Ymer Murati was murdered and his body was chopped up in Paramithia.

In the house of Sulo Tari had gathered more than 40 women. Çili Popova from Popova, wearing a military uniform, and a group of soldiers, entered the house, seized the prettiest women and girls and began to rape them in another room. The screams of the girls and the women were deafening. This debauchery continued all night. Seri Fejzo, Fizret Sulo Tare and others, were victims of their baseness.

Hilmi Beqiri of Filat was wounded in front of his family and left there, as the attackers took off. Wanting to shelter him, the family brought him over to dentist Mavrudhiu. He kept him for a few hours, but later sent word to have him taken away. The family then took him to Stavro Muhaxhiri, after which they went over to Shuaip Metja, where many other families had gathered. Andartët [Greek irregulars – Translator’s note] were informed about this, and they went over and seized him, and after pulling his gold teeth with pliers, killed him.

Malo Muho, an 80-year-old man, who had been ailing for four years, was butchered with a hatchet in front of his wife. His brain splattered on the lap of his wife, who gathered them together, and after covering him with a quilt, ran away.

Abdyl Nurqe was seized in Spatar and taken barefooted to Filat, where he was dragged through the streets of the town, and finally killed in front of the house of Nidh Tafoqi.

The family of Lile Rustemi from Sullashi, numbering 16 persons, most of them children, was totally wiped out, without anyone being able to survive.

Xhelal Miniti of Paramithia was beheaded with a bayonet over the body of mufti Hasan Abdullahu.

Sali Muhedini, Abedin Bakos, Muhamet Pronjë and Malo Sejdiu had their fingers, nose, tongue, and feet cut off, and while they screamed with pain, andartët of Zerva sang the song of their commander, and rejoiced as they witnessed this scene of terror. In the end, they hung them with butchers’ grappling irons.

Following is the declaration of Eshref Himi, a resident of Paramithia, concerning the massacres in Paramithia:

“On Tuesday, June 27, 1944, at 7 in the morning, the Greek Monarcho-Fascists entered Paramithia, commanded by Col. Kamora, Major Kranja, Captain Kristo Stavropulli, an attorney; Captain Lefter Strugari, attorney; sub-lieutenant Nikolla Çenos, and others. As soon as they entered the city, the order was given that no one should leave, because no one’s honor, liberty or property would be threatened in any way. Immediately in the afternoon, there began the arrest of men, women and children, and thievery as well. By next morning all the men were murdered.

“After imprisoning me for four days, they let me go, so as to bury the dead. On the site called ‘The Church of Ajorgji’, I was able to identify five of the bodies. The others were beyond recognition, on account of the tortures inflicted on them. The five victims I was able to identify were: Met Qere, Sami Asimi, Mahmut Kupi, Adem Beqiri, Haki Mile. Two days later, they sent me over to ‘Golataj’, near the house of Dhimitër Nikolla, where they had murdered 8 people. I could not recognize them, because they had cut them to pieces. All around there were corpses of people. A woman by the name of Sanie Bollati was subjected to frightful tortures and burned alive with gasoline. This tragedy took place on Wednesday, while on Friday morning her body was moved away, covered with a blanket by her mother and two townspeople, and placed in a cellar by order of the Monarcho-Fascists, who would not let anyone to see her. The wretched woman died there five days later. By then, her cadaver was full of maggots.

“All of the things I declare here, I have seen with my own eyes. At first, I hid for five days on top of a ceiling, but was arrested by the Monarcho-Fascists and turned over to Major Kranja who, after questioning me briefly, ordered that I be imprisoned. In prison I found 380 persons, including women and children. One hundred twenty of those died of starvation. Four persons and me were in prison for 15 days, after which they transported us to Prevezë, and from there to Janinë, where we stayed for 40 days. There we were subjected to indescribable tortures. We were freed after the arrival in this town of troops of the EAM [National Liberation Front].”

Dervish Sulo from the village of Spatar in [the district of] Filat, describes the massacres in Spatar as follows:

“In the morning of a Saturday in September, 1944, the entire population gathered in front of the (Spatar) village mosque. The soldiers began seizing and raping women, girls, and even old women. Paçe Çulani, 50 years of age, was raped, her hair was cut and even her ears, and finally she was killed in her own orchard, in the vicinity of Muço. In our house was installed the family of Sako Banushi from Skropjona, which numbered eight women, men, and children. After raping the women, whose breasts were pierced with knives, all were massacred….

“In the house of Damin Muhameti, 5 women and 3 children were killed….In the house of Fetin Muhameti, Hane Isufi and another woman were tortured and raped….
In the house of Dule Sherifi, they cut off the heads of 80-year-old Sulejman Dhimicë and his wife. In the house of Meto Braho, 20 persons, including men, women and children, were burned alive….Kije Nurçia, 70 years of age, was knifed to death….In the vineyard of Zule and the garden of Avdyl Nurçe, I saw 20 people who had been massacred….In the house of Haxhi Latifi, the daughter of Haxhi Gulani was raped, while in the dwelling of Mejdi Meto, Hava Ajshja was raped, and Nano Arapi was both raped and killed.”

According to statistics available to date, the victims and the missing among the Albanian minority in Greece, during the massacres in the years 1944-1945, number 2,877, broken down as follows:

Filat and vicinity, 1, 286; Gumenicë and vicinity, 192; Paramithia and vicinity, 673; and Magellç and Parg, 626. This was the fate of all those who were unable to flee Chamëria, with the exception of a few women who are today living witnesses of the chilling massacres in Paramithia, Parg, Spatar, and Filat. The words that come from their mouths make clear the naked criminality and barbaric acts, organized by the Greek Monarcho-Fascist reaction in Chamëria.

This carnage, inspired by the basest sentiments of chauvinistic and religious hatred, resulted in the displacement of nearly 23,000 Chams, who afterward found shelter in Albania under the most miserable conditions.

A total of 68 villages with over 5,800 houses, were seized, destroyed and burned down.

An account of the damages reveals that the Monarcho-Fascist forces of Zerva seized the following assets left behind [by the Chams] in Chamëria: 17,000 heads of sheep and goats, 1,200 heads of cattle, 21,000 kv [kuintals – 1 kv. equals 100 kg. – Translator’s note] of cereals, and 80,000 kv of [olive] oil; plus the product of the year 1944-1945, which totaled 11,000,000 kg. of cereals, and 3,000,000 kg of [olive]oil. During the emigration, 110,000 sheep and goats, and 2,400 cattle died or were lost.

This shows clearly the economic catastrophe that befell our people, which was forced to take the roads of immigration with only the clothes on their back.

This catastrophe happened because our people, together with the Greek people, fought alongside the EAM, rather than jump in the camp of the collaborationists who were allied with the occupiers.

Chamëria contributed materially and morally to the great Anti-Fascist war. Hundreds of young Çams joined the ranks of ELAS, when EAM sounded the alarm for freedom. With the broadening of the Anti-Fascist war against the German occupiers, the population of Chamëria threw itself unreservedly in the war against the occupier, and formed the Fourth Battalion of the XV th Regiment of ELAS. Out of the small population of Chamëria, stepped forward over 500 troops who fought with determination against the Nazi-Fascist occupiers and the traitors in the camp of Zerva.

The blood of the national hero, Ali Demi, and of the martyr Bido Sejko; and the blood of martyrs Muharrem Myrtezaj, Ibrahim Hallumi,Hysen Vejseli and others, that was shed together with that of the Greek Partisans at the Pass of Qeramicë, bears out this fact.

In Chamëria at the end of the war, the troops commanded by General Napoleon Zervas operated in our districts and villages not as liberators, but as executioners and sworn enemies of the Albanian element.

In accordance with the Agreement of Caserta (Sarafi – Zervas) in August, 1944, the troops of the resistance were placed on a common front against the Nazi armies, under a joint command, in designated operational zones. This agreement was violated in Chamëria. Zerva’s troops compromised with the Germans, and attacked our troops and obstructed the activity of the IV th Battalion of the XV th Regiment in the zone of Filat. The operations and massacres in the district of Filat are directly connected with this situation, and in open contradiction to the trust and spirit of cooperation established in Caserta. The last village of Chamëria, Koska, which was one of the bases for organizing the resistance forces of the National-Liberation Front in Chamëria, was destroyed and burned. It was the final action in the destruction of Chamëria.

A Commission of the Cham Anti-Fascist Council was dispatched to Athens on 10/30/1944, to meet with the Greek Government of Papandreu, and protest against the massacres in Chamëria, as well as demand that they be condemned. The Government of Papandreu refused to take any measures, or commit itself in any way regarding this matter.

Following the operations of December, 1944 and the liberation of Chamëria from the Zervist occupation, a portion of our population was repatriated and settled in the district of Filat. Then, on March 12, 1945 government forces of the garrison of Corfu, in violation of the Agreement of Varkizë (February, 1945), organized and treacherously carried out the vile massacres in Vanre (Filat). This exposed once again the attitude and policy of the responsible authorities of the Greek Government, concerning the extermination of the Albanian population of CHAMËRIA.

In the wake of our immigration to Albania, the democratic Government of Albania gave to our masses boundless material and moral assistance. A fund of 240,000 francs was set aside by the Albanian Government for our people, and all-round efforts have been made to alleviate our deplorable condition.

Responding to this situation, the UNNRA Mission in Albania won approval from its headquarters in Washington [D.C.], to dispense 1,450,000 dollars as immediate relief to the immigrants, in view of our difficult situation.

Even in these conditions, the Cham immigrants continued to contribute more and more to the Front. At the Conference of Shalës (Konispol), held at the end of September, 1944, the voice of the Chams in exile was raised strongly in favor of collaboration against the occupier, and the injustices of the Greek Monarcho-Fascists.

At the Congress of Vlorë on September 23, 1945 the Cham delegates, who represented all the groups of Cham immigrants in Albania, spoke against the massacres that Greek Monarcho-Fascists had perpetrated among them, and demanded by means of memoranda addressed to the London Conference, an inquiry into their problem, and the condemnation of those responsible for the pointless bloodshed and immeasurable sufferings in Chamëria. The Congress concluded with a resolution summarizing all of its proceedings.

While in exile, we have many times addressed appeals to the world, regarding the rights that have been denied us, and asked for repatriation.

On October 30, 1944 the Cham Anti-Fascist Council addressed a protest note to the Greek Government of National Unity, the Mediterranean Chief-of-Staff, the Allied Government, and the Central Committee of EAM, discussing the barbaric actions of Greek Fascists in Chamëria.

On May 9, 1945 the Cham Anti-Fascist Council dispatched to the Military Missions a copy of the telegram addressed to the President of the Conference in San Francisco, concerning the rights of the Chams, based on the Atlantic Charter.

On June 27, 1945 telegrams of protest by the Cham Anti-Fascist Council, against the massacres in Chamëria, were addressed to the Democratic Government of Albania, the Allied Military Missions including the Soviet, the English, the American, the French, and the Czechoslovak; the Yugoslav Legation, and the Albanians in America, Italy and Bulgaria.

A memorandum was addressed to Mr. Hutchinson, Labor [Party] Deputy in Great Britain, on 11/26/1945.

Telegrams were addressed to the General Directorate of UNRRA, by the Cham Anti-Fascist Committee (9/25/1945), asking for aid.

A memorandum was addressed to the Presidency of the Conference of Allied Foreign Ministers in London, by the delegates of the Cham Congress, in September, 1945.

A memorandum was addressed to the Assembly of the United Nations in London, by the Cham Anti-Fascist Committee, on January 11, 1946, bringing up again the issue of the massacres, and asking for the rights due [the Chams].

A memorandum was addressed to the United Nations Assembly in New York, by the Cham Anti-Fascist Committee on October 25, 1946 and later.

We are victims of the Monarchist regime that reigns in Greece today. Together with the fraternal Greek people, we are suffering the consequences of the dark terror that was inflicted on them throughout Greece.

For two and a half years now, we roam Albania in misery, away from the Fatherland, while our fertile lands are exploited unjustly by the agents of the Monarcho-Fascists in Chamëria.

Our travails in exile have been, and continue to be without bounds. Thousands have perished owing to the situation that has come into being.

Despite our protests and the rights to which we are entitled, we continue to live in exile, while the Greek Government, without any justification, is busy quartering alien inhabitants in our Chamëria, in order to prevent our return.

In the name of our people, we protest once again against all these things, and present before the Investigating Committee of the UNO Security Council, the [issue of the] tragedy that has taken place in Chamëria, drawing attention to the barbaric acts carried out with the intention of wiping out the Cham people.

We stress the need for a speedy resolution of the Cham problem, and being persuaded that our demands will be met, we set them forth, as follows:

1. That immediate steps be taken to prevent the settling of foreign elements in our homes.

2. That all Chams be repatriated.

3. That all our properties be returned [to us] and all damages to real and moveable properties of ours be compensated.

4. That assistance be given to rebuild our homes and resettle [our people].

5. That steps be taken to insure the benefits that derive from international treaties and mandates, such as the security of civil, political, and cultural rights, and the security of the person.

6. That all persons responsible for crimes committed be tried and punished.

With our most distinguished considerations:

THE ANTI-FASCIST COMMITTEE OF CHAM IMMIGRANTS

Taho Sejko Kasëm Demi Rexhep Çami

Tahir Demi Vehip Demi Dervish Dojaka

Hilmi Seiti

__________________________________________________ ___
you think that these massacre are justifiable?!

TirAlb
11-03-2007, 11:58 PM
About wikipedia:

Napoleon Zervas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Zervas)

Tsontos
11-04-2007, 12:12 AM
wtf is that? You consider a submission of the "Anti-Fascist Committee of Cham immigrants in Albania" a credible source?

You are not in touch with reality on this issue it seems.

TirAlb
11-04-2007, 01:05 AM
Tell me with what dont you agree in that article?

Mygdonia
11-04-2007, 08:07 PM
You raise a gun against the Greek state you are either jailed or killed. We executed many of our own for treason as well...within Greek borders you are at the mercy of OUR laws and OUR etiquette.

TirAlb
11-04-2007, 08:35 PM
Good manner to close a topic,i have nothing to add after this.

Orphic_Hymn
11-05-2007, 03:13 AM
but i don't pretend to learn history from them,because there are some things called books.

So since you allegedly acknowledge the existance of books, indicating that you also allegedly acknowledge the fact that the region's history is well documented, then why on earth would you resort to copy/pasting this text which is nothing more than the celebration of ignorance and unhistoric propaganda by fools ?




Beginning with the Greek occupation of Chamëria on February 23, 1913, the gang of Deli Janaqi, incited and assisted by the local authorities, massacred without cause whatsoever 72 men, in the brook of Selani, district of Paramithia.

"occupation" ?
Nicely selected date by our friend here, but it seems like the author forgot to mention that what he calls occupation is in accordance to international treaties (see Treaty of Bucharest 1913) and who is this "Deli Janaqi", why the rediculous Albanization of a Hellenic name or was he actually an Albanian?



The hounding, persecutions, imprisonment, internment, tortures, and plunder carried out on the pretext of disarming [the population] in the years 1914-1921, the terrorist actions of outlaws, and the provocations of Gjen Baire in 1921, reveal the reality of the sufferings to which our population was subjected during the Greek occupation.
OK, another Albanian here?
Its interesting how the author while allegedly recording the region's history conveniently neglects to note the fact that while living under the protection of the Treaty of Athens (Nov. 1913) signed between Hellas and Turkey and considered part of the Muslim minority of Hellas. It didn't take them long... to turn tables and side with the Italian General Feraro's ambitions (June 17th 1917) of taking the region from Hellas and via Italian support and provision of weapons, hoisted the Albanian flag and drove Hellenic authorities and peoples from the region.


In 1922-1923, the Greek authorities decided to displace the Moslem element of Chamëria, in exchange for the Greeks in Asia Minor, on the pretext that we were Turks. This shameless act of the Athenian authorities ran into opposition on our part and the intervention of the League of Nations which, upon ascertaining the Albanian nationality of our people, rejected the decision of the Greek Government.

And to think that you spoke of obtaining knowledge from books, yet you rediculously dared to put this trash in bold !!!
Since when you ignorant fool is the context of the Treaty of Lausanne considered a "decision of Hellenic authorities" and where exactly in the treaty are Albanians excluded as an ethnicity?
Learn that the treaty strictly speaks of followers of the Islamic religion.

But despite the intervention of the League of Nations, and the solemn commitments undertaken by the Greek Government in Lausanne on January 16, 1923, the authorities in Athens continued their policy of extermination. They resorted to every device to make it difficult for the Albanian element to remain in Chamëria, and confiscated 6,000 hectares of land owned by hundreds of families in Dushk, Gumenicë, Kardhiq, Karbunarë, and others, without compensating them in the least.

And the stupidity continues... the author and our friend who reproduced this should have actually read the treaty prior to promoting such trash. The annexed convention pertaining to the population exchange reads:

Article 9

Immovable property, whether rural or urban, belonging to emigrants, or to the communities mentioned in Article 8, and the movable property left by the these emigrants or communities, shall be liquidated in accordance with the following provisions by the Mixed Commission provided for in Article 11. […]

Lets hope you understand the meaning of liquidation.

The government in Athens settled the immigrants from Asia Minor in Chamëria, with the intention of peopling it with Greeks and creating conditions that would lead to the emigration of the autochthonous Albanian population.

Autochthonous?
Sure whatever makes your day.. so out of a total of some 1.2 refugees that arrived the approx. 8.200 situated in the region of Epirus were the starting point of creating conditions for the extermination of the Chams ?

Wasted far too much time on this already.

TirAlb
11-05-2007, 04:59 PM
So since you allegedly acknowledge the existance of books, indicating that you also allegedly acknowledge the fact that the region's history is well documented, then why on earth would you resort to copy/pasting this text which is nothing more than the celebration of ignorance and unhistoric propaganda by fools ?

I posted that document,for the testimoniances of the attroticies there and i have no doubts that they are completely true!

"occupation" ?
Nicely selected date by our friend here, but it seems like the author forgot to mention that what he calls occupation is in accordance to international treaties (see Treaty of Bucharest 1913) and who is this "Deli Janaqi", why the rediculous Albanization of a Hellenic name or was he actually an Albanian?
Occupation what else?Dont try to avoid the real question by mentioning treatys,Albanians didn't sign anything.I dont know who is Janaqi,maybe Janakis,but its not importan how his name is writed,its just one of the criminals celebrated like heroes in your country.



OK, another Albanian here?
Its interesting how the author while allegedly recording the region's history conveniently neglects to note the fact that while living under the protection of the Treaty of Athens (Nov. 1913) signed between Hellas and Turkey and considered part of the Muslim minority of Hellas. It didn't take them long... to turn tables and side with the Italian General Feraro's ambitions (June 17th 1917) of taking the region from Hellas and via Italian support and provision of weapons, hoisted the Albanian flag and drove Hellenic authorities and peoples from the region.
They were/are albanians first than muslims.It was just one of the many attems to divide us in orthodox("greeks") and MUSLIM("turks").Its called fight for freedom,greeks(and albanians) did the same with turks,no?



And to think that you spoke of obtaining knowledge from books, yet you rediculously dared to put this trash in bold !!!
Since when you ignorant fool is the context of the Treaty of Lausanne considered a "decision of Hellenic authorities" and where exactly in the treaty are Albanians excluded as an ethnicity?
Learn that the treaty strictly speaks of followers of the Islamic religion.
I dont understand the need to make all this big mess,the question is very simple,In the treaty was decided an exchange of populations between turks and greeks,and thousands of muslim albanians was forced to leave cameria because they were considered Turks.



And the stupidity continues... the author and our friend who reproduced this should have actually read the treaty prior to promoting such trash. The annexed convention pertaining to the population exchange reads:



Lets hope you understand the meaning of liquidation.


Autochthonous?
Sure whatever makes your day.. so out of a total of some 1.2 refugees that arrived the approx. 8.200 situated in the region of Epirus were the starting point of creating conditions for the extermination of the Chams ?

Wasted far too much time on this already.
Truth hearts!however i have already understood the greek position,Albanian muslims collaborated with turks,germans,greeks always fighted for freedom,alb orthodox are greeks...bla bla bla

Draco
11-05-2007, 05:04 PM
TirAlb, what is the point you are trying to make? Of course the Albanians were not asked, neither were the over 1 million Christians (some of whom couldn't even speak Greek) who were deported from Turkey to Greece. As for your claim that the Albanian-speaking Muslims were Albanians first and Muslims second, I find that highly doubtful. At that time they would have had very little Albanian ethnic consciousness and this is demonstrated by the fact that there are very no (or very few) people proclaiming themselves "exiled Albanians" in Turkey today.

TirAlb
11-05-2007, 05:27 PM
TirAlb, what is the point you are trying to make? Of course the Albanians were not asked, neither were the over 1 million Christians (some of whom couldn't even speak Greek) who were deported from Turkey to Greece.

im not trying to make any point in particular,im just trying to say that what was done to the Cam people after ww2 is not justifiable.
ps.In those 1mil there were also many albanians,about 30'000 live in evros greece,but of course their minority is unrecognised.



As for your claim that the Albanian-speaking Muslims were Albanians first and Muslims second, I find that highly doubtful. At that time they would have had very little Albanian ethnic consciousness and this is demonstrated by the fact that there are very no (or very few) people proclaiming themselves "exiled Albanians" in Turkey today

Your are wrong here,in 1913 albanians had a full national consciouness.The problem is that the turk policy toward albanians wasn't much different to the greek one,so school in albanian were never opened for example,but however there are more than 1milion(some say 5milion with at least one albanian parent) of turks that declare themselves of albanian origins.

Draco
11-05-2007, 05:41 PM
im not trying to make any point in particular,im just trying to say that what was done to the Cam people after ww2 is not justifiable.
ps.In those 1mil there were also many albanians,about 30'000 live in evros greece,but of course their minority is unrecognised.
It certainly wasn't justifiable, but similar events have happened all over the world in the same period, most notably the fate of the over 3 million German minority of Czechoslovakia. The same goes for the pogrom directed against the 200,000-strong Greek minority in Constantinople or Stalin's deportations of Pontic Greeks from the coast of the Black Sea to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan. In fact, the fate of those Greeks was worse than that of the Cham Albanians because they never collaborated with Nazis and committed atrocities against occupied peoples. None of these things were right, they were historical tragedies which we can hopefully learn from so as to not allow such things to happen again.
Your are wrong here,in 1913 albanians had a full national consciouness.The problem is that the turk policy toward albanians wasn't much different to the greek one,so school in albanian were never opened for example,but however there are more than 1milion(some say 5milion with at least one albanian parent) of turks that declare themselves of albanian origins.
Why were they sent to Turkey then? The Cham Albanians were allowed to remain because they had Albanian national conciousness and were clearly not Turks. Muslim Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs and Turks identified more with Turkey than with Albania or Greece, so off they went.

As for the one Albanian parent, that means very little if there is no evidence that that parent ever considered himself or herself an Albanian and the person in question doesn't consider himself or herself Albanian. The practice of imposing ethnic labels retrospectively and even against the will of the people involved (which is so common amongst Albanians and Skopjians) if plainly arrogant. A person is what he decides he is, not what some nationalist in a foreign country thinks.

TirAlb
11-05-2007, 06:12 PM
It certainly wasn't justifiable, but similar events have happened all over the world in the same period, most notably the fate of the over 3 million German minority of Czechoslovakia. The same goes for the pogrom directed against the 200,000-strong Greek minority in Constantinople or Stalin's deportations of Pontic Greeks from the coast of the Black Sea to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan. In fact, the fate of those Greeks was worse than that of the Cham Albanians because they never collaborated with Nazis and committed atrocities against occupied peoples. None of these things were right, they were historical tragedies which we can hopefully learn from so as to not allow such things to happen again.

Nothing to add.I agree!

Why were they sent to Turkey then? The Cham Albanians were allowed to remain because they had Albanian national conciousness and were clearly not Turks. Muslim Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs and Turks identified more with Turkey than with Albania or Greece, so off they went.

As for the one Albanian parent, that means very little if there is no evidence that that parent ever considered himself or herself an Albanian and the person in question doesn't consider himself or herself Albanian. The practice of imposing ethnic labels retrospectively and even against the will of the people involved (which is so common amongst Albanians and Skopjians) if plainly arrogant. A person is what he decides he is, not what some nationalist in a foreign country thinks.
Indeed is a balcan wide spread habbit!But you misunderstood me about the turkish example,official stat. doesnt exist about minoritities,but declarations as that of "at least one parent..." were made from turkish diplomats during their visits in Albania,so its not an albanian claim,and the albanian minority or lobby there(indeed just few of them speak some albanian) is an important factor.
...
they were sent in turkey because the greek goverment considered them turks,its also an economic matter,in turkey the had free land in exchange for the properties they leaved...but many of them came in albania also!

Orphic_Hymn
11-05-2007, 07:02 PM
I posted that document,for the testimoniances of the attroticies there and i have no doubts that they are completely true!
Try to understand the difference between a well documented source written by an acknowledged historian and some propaganda article by a nationalistic fool that intentionally omits to mention the existance of treaties.


Occupation what else?Dont try to avoid the real question by mentioning treatys,Albanians didn't sign anything.I dont know who is Janaqi,maybe Janakis,but its not importan how his name is writed,its just one of the criminals celebrated like heroes in your country.

So you too agree with the author and show total disrespect to internationally recognized treaties.
Of course Albanians didn't sign anything, they had nothing to sign since the power of Austro-Hungarian influence was only so strong, but you fail to see the significance of the accuracy of the name and the possibility of the existance of the individual in question. For you and your blinded hatred which is driven by propaganda, he's a "criminal" that justifyies your outrageous claims, but here where we try to tackle every aspect of our history accurately his existance is of significance. Interestingly enough, his name only appears in sites which reproduce the exact same article..

PS: before you talk about celebrating criminals as heroes again, think about who Pisli is and what your inferiority complex has turned him into..


They were/are albanians first than muslims.It was just one of the many attems to divide us in orthodox("greeks") and MUSLIM("turks").Its called fight for freedom,greeks(and albanians) did the same with turks,no?

OK, so now the conspiracy theories kick in... have you actually read the Treaty of Lausanne and if you have, why don't you tell us where on earth it makes reference to ethnicities?


I dont understand the need to make all this big mess,the question is very simple,In the treaty was decided an exchange of populations between turks and greeks,and thousands of muslim albanians was forced to leave cameria because they were considered Turks.
WRONG !!!
They were perceived for exactly what they were and that was part of the Islamic element and as harsh a measure as it was, according to the Treaty of Lausanne which wasn't written by Hellas, but literally forced upon us after the change of plans in the early 20's, they had to go. Out of the total of some 20-25.000 only some 3-5000 did, so why do you stick on the Lausanne treaty and not on the later events.. could it be because as Hellenic citizens their actions are defined only as high treason and thus you have nothing to argue about ?
Do note that according to the reports of the Mixed Commitee that was put into action after Albania's complaints, we find that Erik Einer Ekstrand notes that there was a large portion of the Muslim population that while were of Hellenic or Albanian background considered Turkey as their homeland and insisted on being included in the exchange.




Truth hearts!however i have already understood the greek position,Albanian muslims collaborated with turks,germans,greeks always fighted for freedom,alb orthodox are greeks...bla bla bla
Sorry to break the news to you, but there's no Hellenic position, history is well documented and there is very little you can do to change that. You should learn from the mistakes of your ancestors instead of trying to find excuses for their actions.

Orphic_Hymn
11-05-2007, 07:10 PM
im not trying to make any point in particular,im just trying to say that what was done to the Cam people after ww2 is not justifiable.
ps.In those 1mil there were also many albanians,about 30'000 live in evros greece,but of course their minority is unrecognised.


Then why implicate the Lausanne treaty ?
I'm sure you can provide some sort of source which will support not only that outrageous 1 mil. but also the 30.000 unrecognized Albanians in Evros..

TirAlb
11-05-2007, 07:58 PM
Then why implicate the Lausanne treaty ?
I'm sure you can provide some sort of source which will support not only that outrageous 1 mil. but also the 30.000 unrecognized Albanians in Evros..

Outrageous?!Draco said it,so Orphic please read better!Albanians in evros are cristian orthodox and they was moved in greece from turkey,got it now?

a prof.YouTube - 30 Mije Shqiptaret e Evros Greke [ p2balbanian.com ]

TirAlb
11-05-2007, 08:09 PM
about the other post,ill reply tomorrow!

Orphic_Hymn
11-06-2007, 05:21 AM
Outrageous?!Draco said it,so Orphic please read better!Albanians in evros are cristian orthodox and they was moved in greece from turkey,got it now?

a prof.YouTube - 30 Mije Shqiptaret e Evros Greke [ p2balbanian.com ] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjWqXugoxDs)

OK seems like my post might have mislead you, the outrageous part isn't related to the approx. 1.2 mil that were relocated during the population exchange from Anatolia to Hellas, but to your claim that among them there were Albanians:
In those 1mil there were also many albanians
which is exactly why I requested some source to support this, well unless you believe that although we were talking about population exchange in accordance to the Lausanne Treaty, I'd suddenly ignore its existance and aftermath.

As for your video in question, what I understood was nothing simply because I ignore your language. But I find it puzzling that out of the alleged 30.000 which you and the video claims (assuming that "mije" means thousand) they'd only find what was it, 7?, I guess thats why I didn't come accross any of them even though I served in the region for 12 months.
Anyway, these people have nothing to do with the population exchange of the 1920's as you suggested, but moved to their current place of residence during the 17th and 18th cent. from Korutsa. Its also interesting to note that KEMO (Research Center for Minority Groups) that otherwise strives to indicate and proclaim difference and minority status of groups doesn't title them Albanians (like it titles their language), but Arvanites (see Linguistic Diversity in Hellas p.290-293).. something which further supports my thesis in our previous discussion about the difference in the use of the terms.

Draco
11-06-2007, 08:09 AM
I assume the "Albanians in Thrace" TirAlb is referring are the staunchly Greek nationalist Arvanites in Thrace who have 18 villages (most of them came from Eastern/Turkish Thrace with the population exchanges). TirAlb, will you stop imposing alien ethnic labels on people? The only people who can be considered Albanians are those who consider themselves Albanians, no more no less.

TirAlb
11-06-2007, 08:45 AM
I assume the "Albanians in Thrace" TirAlb is referring are the staunchly Greek nationalist Arvanites in Thrace who have 18 villages (most of them came from Eastern/Turkish Thrace with the population exchanges). TirAlb, will you stop imposing alien ethnic labels on people? The only people who can be considered Albanians are those who consider themselves Albanians, no more no less.

yes exactly,they were emigrants from south albania,that moved to thrace(ibrik tepe),than after the exchange from ibrik tepe to greece!
The persons in that video considered themselves Shqipetar no more no less!I feel very proud of them,and of the beautiful albanian they still speak!That talk-show was not nationalistic,and the interviews there are very relaxed and even funny!
For example the last one from the mother side is the nephew of Fan Noli,albanian prime minister and nationalist,famous for his antigreek policy,and on his father side,Greek,and his Grandfather was a Greek nationalist,so you can immagine the bizarre situation.
Theres no need to stay always on offence,maybe is time to admit the existence of minorities in greece and live in peace with the idea!

Draco
11-06-2007, 09:17 AM
About Thrace, here's a quote from KEMO (http://www.kemo.gr/en/index.asp) (I found it on this page (http://www.geocities.com/tuki8eblom/arvanites.html)):
Αρβανίτες της Θράκης: έχουν μεταναστεύσει εκεί γύρω στον 17ο και 18ο αιώνα από την περιοχή της Κορυτσάς, τα χωριά Βιθκούκι, Κιάφαζετς και Κιότεσα. Οι πληθυσμοί αυτοί αρχικά βρέθηκαν ανατολικά του Έβρου (κυρίως στα χωριά Ιμπρίκ τεπέ και Αλτίν Τας) και ήρθαν ως πρόσφυγες δυτικά του ποταμού Έβρου το 1923. Εγκαταστάθηκαν στα χωριά Φερες, Αρδάνιο, Καβησός, Πυλαία, Πέπλο, Γεμιστή στο νομό Έβρου και στους Κήπους, το Τυχερό (80% αρβανίτικος πληθυσμός) και Παραδημή (αμιγής αρβανίτικος πληθυσμός) του νομού Ροδόπης. Στο νομό Έβρου υπάρχει και μια άλλη ομάδα, εγκατεστημένοι στα βόρεια, στα χωριά Χειμώνιο, Ρήγιο και σε άλλα δύο. Μάλλον προέρχονται από την διασπορά του 14ου αι.

Translation:

Arvanites of Thraki: they migrated there in approximately the 17th and 18th centuries from the area of Korytsa, the villages Vithkouki, Kiafazets and Kiotesa. Those populations initially found themselves east of the Evros (mainly in the villages Ibrik tepe and Altin Tas) and came as refugees to the west of the Evros river in 1923. The settled in the villages Feres, Ardanio, Kavisos, Pylaia, Peplo, Gemisti in the Evros Prefecture and in Kipoi, Tychero (80% compact Arvanite population) of the Rhodope Prefecture. In the Evros prefecture there is another group settle in the north, in the villages, Cheimonio, Rigio and in other two. They probably come from the 14th century diaspora.
I repeat my original position though. Nothing indicates that these people consider themselves Albanians today. The Arvanite League of Greece (http://www.arvasynel.gr/), the main representative of Arvanites in Greece (there are also other local associations such as the one of Ano Liosia, however their website has been taken down), insists that Arvanites are Greek and denies any connection with Albania whatsoever. There has been no demand within Greece for Albanian minority status and since the liberalization of Albania there have been no reported contacts between any Arvanites in Greece and Albania. That these people are forgotten proud Albanians remains guesswork and wishful thinking until something suggests otherwise.

As for minorities in Greece, no one denies them. It gets confusing however when people say that Arvanites and Vlachs are ethnic minorities and then the Arvanite and Vlach associations then protest and say they are not minorities. What is the Greek government supposed to do??? Listen to the foreign "experts" or the Arvanites and Vlachs themselves? If you want Albanians in Greece, there are the over 500,000 Albanian immigrants.