Contemporary Greek use of the name Macedonia - the most ill conceived skopjian lie

[Spartan]

We've all heard the Skopjian claim that "Greece and Greeks banned or had an aversion to the name Macedonia until 1988 when we first used the name Macedonia to describe what had previously been known as Northern Greece since we stole Macedonia from the Macedonians in 1913". Others are not THAT stupid and claim we used it beofre 1988 but still claim we had an aversion and "rarely".

Can anyone supply me with a date the 3 districts of Macedonia(modern Greece) were created and when was the name "Macedonia" originally used by the Greek government?

[akritas]

Can anyone supply me with a date the 3 districts of Macedonia(modern Greece) were created and when was the name "Macedonia" originally used by the Greek government??


The districts (West, East, Central) of Macedonia ,as is known today, established in 1988. This is the common FYROM propaganda as about the date. In 1991(I think) the East Macedonian unified with Thrace.
Hellenic State named as Macedonia district at 1914, after the the Treaty of Bucharest, which ended the Balkan War of 1912-13. Under Ottoman rule (1450-1912) there was no administrative district called Macedonia, the region was divided up into sanjaks and vilayets(Andianople, Thessaloniki and Monastirion).

[Amarantos]

With the First Balkan War of the Balkan states against the Turks in 1912, when the Greek army liberated Thessaloniki, the Governorate General of Macedonia(ΓΕΝΙΚΗ ΔΙΟΙΚΗΣΗ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑΣ) was established immediately, with its headquarters in Thessaloniki. It was universally accepted that Greece had the right to do this and no one objected. Until 1944, no one ever conceived of the existence of any other Macedonia.

[Spartan]

Euxaristo Palikaria!

Do you, by chance, have any non-Greek sources that support that info just in case they try to challenge it??

[Amarantos]

Euxaristo Palikaria!

Do you, by chance, have any non-Greek sources that support that info just in case they try to challenge it??


as far as the term "Governorate General of Macedonia" is concearned,i found this page,see number 32
http://gak.thess.sch.gr/Archsyl/eur.htm
Check it out
It's in greek,from the "general state archieves" site,still under construction.
Non-greek source still not found

[Spartan]

Euxaristo Amarantos!

For this subject it doesn't really matter if its a Greek source. All I needed to prove is that the Greek government was using the name Macedonia since the Balkans Wars and possibly Earlier!

[preston]

Spartan, if I'm not too late, this should help
Vilayet of Adrianople
... administrative unit (province) within the Ottoman Empire, covering presently Greek Eastern Macedonia and Thrace, and the European parts of Turkey.

Vilayet of Ioannina (Janina)
... administrative unit (province) within the Ottoman Empire, covering parts of presently Greek Epirus, southern parts of Albania.

Vilayet of the Islands
... administrative unit (province) within the Ottoman Empire, covering, since 1832, the islands in the eastern Aegaean except for Samos; population mainly Greek.

Vilayet of Monastir
... administrative unit (province) within the Ottoman Empire, covering western parts of presently Greek Macedonia (Aegaean Macedonia), western parts of the Republic of Macedonia (Vardar Macedonia).

Vilayet of Salonica
... administrative unit (province) within the Ottoman Empire, covering central parts of presently Greek Macedonia (Aegaean Macedonia), eastern parts of the Republic of Macedonia (Vardar Macedonia) and parts of SW Bulgaria (Pirin Macedonia).

Source totaly indipended http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histdic/balkans/hdgreeceper.html

[akritas]

The name is
Governor-General of Macedonia or Geniki Dioikisi Makedonias
Kai apo skopiano site kateuthian sta moutra tou nitkov=bosnian


1923: "In the course of conversation, Mr. Lambros [Governor General of Macedonia], actually said that the present was a good opportunity to get rid of the Bulgars [sic] who remained in this area and who had always been a source of trouble for Greece

http://www.gate.net/~mango/Rossos_British_FO.htm



In early 1923 the Governor-General of Macedonia, Achilleas Lambros, conducted an ethnological survey of this region.(30) According to Lambros, the statistical data came (a) from the official Greek census of 1920, (b) from another census conducted at about the same time on behalf of the Foreign Ministry and (c) from information derived from various local officials.

This figure is also supported by an 1912 unofficial and unpublished census found in the papers of the first Greek Governor-General of Macedonia, Stefanos Dragoumis.(25)
(25.) Archeio Stefanou Dragoumi [Stefanos Dragoumis Papers], F.116.4., Governor-General of Thessaloniki to the Prime Minister, Thessaloniki, 4 November 1913, ref. 17210.


http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/downloads/library/Michailidis98.pdf


Cheers!!!!

[Spartan]

Bravo Akritas.

Aurio tha pao sto Net54 kai tha to xrisimopioiso!

[Tsontos]

This poster was made after our victory in the balkan wars

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/1641/liberationofmacedoniaposter2rl.png


Colour lithograph depicting the New Greece [upon] the newly liberated lands, crowning the Greek armed forces, 1913, Athens, National Historical Museum.

[Tsontos]

cambridge atlas from 1913:

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc23.html


1949 national geographic:


http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/doc8.html



The building of the Society of Macedonian Studies founded in 1934. You do not need to know Greek to read the word in the middle: Makedonikwn=Macedonian

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/media/original/b443a.jpg

The Charter of the Commune of Melenikos of 1813. Fifth line from the top it mentions Melenikos is in Macedonia.

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/media/original/a312a.jpg

[Tsontos]

Here is a 1962 london times article referring to Greek Macedonia:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/6/6e/Yugoslavs_claim_minority.JPG

1957:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/0/09/Notaproblem.JPG

[Tsontos]

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/MacedoniaTerm/index.html

[Tsontos]

...........

One of the FYROM arguments is why was it until 1990 that images specifically associated with ancient Macedonia appeared on modern Greek coins - the coin they refer to is the 100 Drachma coin with the image of the Star of Vergina on one side and an image of Alexander the Great on the other side (see coin No.7 below):

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/4340/coins/coinsfr.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/4340/coins/coinsba.JPG

What they don't mention or are simply ignorant of is the fact that many images associated with Alexander and Macedon have appeared on Greek bank notes throughout the 20th century. These images where appearing on Greek currency whilst FYROM was still called Vardaska Banovina within Yugoslavia.

For example:

1,000 Drachma Note from 1941

Issue Date: 1/10/1941

Front Image: Alexander the Great:

http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/4340/banknotes/1000d-f.jpg

Reverse Image: Edessa Falls:

http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/4340/banknotes/1000d-b.jpg


50 Drachma Note from 1921

Issue Date: 16/9/1921 to 24/2/1922

Front Image: Frieze from the “Alexander Sarcophagus” showing Alexander the Great on horseback in battle with the Persians:

http://www.geocities.com/greekcurrency2/ethniki/50_3_1921_f.jpg

Reverse Image: Alexander the Great:

http://www.geocities.com/greekcurrency2/ethniki/50_3_1921_b.jpg


1,000 Drachma Note from 1956

Issue Date: 16/4/1956

Front Image: Heracles

http://www.geocities.com/greekcurrency/54_97/1000_1956_f.jpg

Reverse Image: Alexander the Great form the Alexander Mosaic:

http://www.geocities.com/greekcurrency/54_97/1000_1956_b.jpg

[Amyntas]

The claim of the Slavs from F.Y.R.O.M: "The use of the hellenic term Makedonia was forbidden in Greece until 1988"

FACTS:
F.Y.R.O.M.-Slavs claim that the use of the term "MAKEDONIA" in Greece was forbidden until 1988 and that no province with the name "MAKEDONIA" (Macedonia) existed in Northern-Greece before 1988.

There are many examples for state institutions or privat corporations which use the term "MAKEDONIA" in Greece since the beginning of the 20th century and still use it.

Newspaper "MAKEDONIA" March 1940 [click on the pictures to view them in full size!]
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2458/makedon6bt.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2458/makedon6bt.jpg)

MACEDONIA und THESSALONIKI Newspaperlogo
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4393/180pxmakthesslogo1nc.gif

Macedonia (Greek:Μακεδονία) is a Greek daily newspaper first published in 1911 by Vellidis.
NationMaster - Encyclopedia: Macedonia (newspaper) (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Macedonia-(newspaper))


The Society for Macedonian Studies
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1737/241cu.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1737/241cu.jpg)

In the spring of 1939, a number of distinguished citizens of Thessaloniki founded the Society for Macedonian Studies as a legal entity of private law.
[...]
The Society for Macedonian Studies founded the Institute for Balkan Studies, initially as one of its own departments. The latter is now an independent body in its own right, with the Society for Macedonian Studies represented by three of the seven members of the Administrative Board. Another foundation is the Historical Archive of Macedonia, and the Society was also co-founder of the Museum of the Macedonian Struggle.
The Society for Macedonian Studies (http://www.hyper.gr/ems/)


Art Gallery of the Society for Macedonian Studies
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2926/firstroom6si.th.jpg (http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2926/firstroom6si.jpg) http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8313/secondroom8bi.th.jpg (http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8313/secondroom8bi.jpg) http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2382/fourthroom8lq.th.jpg (http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2382/fourthroom8lq.jpg)

Founded in 1975, this was the first organised visual art institution in the city, its purpose being to promote and disseminate modern Greek art, mainly that of northern Greece. [...] The collection comprises more than 400 works, mainly paintings, sculptures, and engravings, mostly by artists from Thessaloniki and Macedonia in general, though there are also works by major artists from the rest of Greece and other countries too.
Art Gallery of the Society for Macedonian Studies by Greece Museums Guide - #1 Travel Guide to Greek Culture (http://www.greece-museums.com/museum/64/)


Thessaloniki Museum of the Macedonian Struggle
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9200/mk03a0015zl.th.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9200/mk03a0015zl.jpg)
The Society which is responsible for the Museum of the Macedonian Struggle is that of the "Frieds of the Museum of the Macedonian Struggle", a private association founded in Thessaloniki in 1979.

Greece uses the term"MAKEDONIA" ever since it was liberated. How can the F.Y.R.O.M.'s claim, that the greek Term "MAKEDONIA" was forbidden in Greece, while plenty corporations used it and still use it!

[admin]

Excellent! Please upload these photos to the photo gallery.

I have enable linking to them. Sorry if i blocked that. I have added copyrights now so you guys please upload them there and link to them here.

[Ptolemy]

Faros Of Macedonia - paper of 29th November 1887.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/farosofmacedonia1887.jpg


Ermis of Thessaloniki - paper of 24th Octomber of 1875.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/ermisthessalonikis.jpg

French statistics about the villayet of Thessalonike. According to the statistics there are Hellenic, Bulgarian, Roumanian and Serbian schools for all the ethnicities of people living in the region. Ofcourse No skopjans.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/frenchcensus.jpg

[Ptolemy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/emprosmakedonia.jpg

"Greek-Bulgarian quarrels in Macedonia". Newspaper "Empros" 1913. There is Still no trace of "Macedonians" of the Skopjan type but only Greek and Bulgarian populations in the region of Macedonia.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/boulgaroiVitola.jpg

Arrests of Bulgarians in Bitola. So Bitola has Bulgarian inhabitants.

From the same paper.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/bulgariansskopje.jpg

Translation


Discovery of Dynamite also in Skopje
Bienna 25 April. Police discovered in the houses of Bulgarians in Skopje great amount of dynamites.

In the following article.

Bulgarian Rebel groups
Bienna 25 April. I am telegraphing from Belgrad that the Rebel Bulgarian groups were anihilated. The lamentation of the refugees reach in the surroundings of Kratovo, coming from Thessalonica and

So Rebel groups were bulgarian!!!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/georgedeltchev.jpg

The person in the photo is Goce Delchev.

Translation:

The assasinated BULGARIAN leader of rebels

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/bulgarianrebelsilinden.jpg

"The Bulgarian Bands in Andrianouple"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/bulgarianrevoltilinden.jpg

August of 1903
"BULGARIAN UPRISING IN MACEDONIA "

[Istor]

And this: http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/MacedoniaTerm/index.html

[Ptolemy]

British Newspaper "News of the World" - paper of 24 October 1886

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/greeksfrommacedoniannewsoftheworld2.gif

Another article mentioning the Greek population of Macedonia in 1886.

The whole paper here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/greekquestionsuper.jpg

[Ptolemy]

British Newspaper "Daily News" - Paper of 23 April 1886

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/superrrr23april1886dailynewsarticle.gif

It is mentioned in the article there are some attempts to "in order to bring a revolt among Greeks of Macedonia" in 1886.

[Amyntas]

http://www.intersalonika.gr/

they are using the Vergina for more than 20 years as their logo......;)

[Ptolemy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/empros290405.jpg

Newspaper 'Empros' - paper of 29th April of 1905.

Demonstration of Ottomans in FLORINA

They requested the release of the GreekMacedonians

Capture of the demonstration's head


-------------------------------------------------

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/empros300405.jpg
Stop-press

Newspaper 'Empros' - Paper of 30th April of 1905

General retreat of the Bulgarian gangs

Private dispatch of Empros reporter

Bienna, Saturday morning.

Telegrams from Konstantinople to Bienna's newspapers announce that the Bulgarian gangs in Macedonia, because of their repeated defeats, in which they had suffered from the turkish army and the GreekMacedonian bodies, were compeled to escape to Bulgaria.
The news from there mention, that the Bulgarian comitats are working fiercely and are preparing a general attack of the Bulgarians in Macedonian against Greeks and Serbs, whom is considered as a fact, they will join forces for the issue.

So its dead clear to everybody in Macedonia there were only Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs and Turks and nothing related to a 'macedonian' nationality.:nono: The news were also sent from Konstantinople to all newspapers in Bienna.

[Istor]

Spartan,

SlavoSkopians' beloved Greek writer karakasidou in her famous book has a reference to the General Governor of Macedonia:

===============
"After the violent turmoil of the Balkan Wars, all was peaceful and quiet, at least according to the report District Director of Langadhas had sent to the prefect of Thessaloniki. And yet that same year (1914), the Ottoman General Consulate of Salonika was protesting to the GOVERNOR GENERAL OF MACEDONIA that a number of atrocities had been committed against Muslims in the Langadhas district." pp.164

Anastasia N. Karakasidou, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", Chicago, 1997
====================

[Flipper]

The Tsotyli gymnasium founded 1871.

Notice the words "MACEDONIAN BROTHERHOOD OF KONSTANTINOUPOLIS".

http://www.mechanix.gr/flipper/history/scans1/Tsotyli_School.jpg

H Τυλαυτήc Τcοτύλιοc σχολή ιδρυθήcα εν ετοι cωτήριω 1871 υπό τηc εν Κωνcταντινουπολοι Εδρευούcης ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΚΗC ΦΙΛΕΚΠΕΔΕΥΤΙΚΗC ΑΔΕΛΦΟΤΗΤΟC...

Translation: The school of Tsotyli, founded the savior year of 1871, by the Konstantinoupolis based, Knowledge-loving Macedonian brotherhood.

And further down (line 8-9)...


CΥΜΒΑΛΕΝ ΕΙC ΤΗΝ ΔΙΑΔΩCΙΝ TΩΝ CΩΤΗΡΙΩΝ ΦΩΤΩΝ ΤΗC ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗC ΠΑΙΔΕΙΑC


Translation: It contributed in the spreading of the savior enlightement of the HELLENIC education.

[pankration]

Unless my eyes are failing me isn't MAKEDONIA (english spelling) on the map in the poster? Obviously Greeks considered Macedonia Greek a hundred years ago.

[Tsontos]

Taken from Ptolemy's thread Greek Macedonian newspapers of late 19th century (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-macedonia-forum/874-greek-macedonian-newspapers-late-19th-century-2.html):

The greek newspaper "Empros" had in the paper of 19th December of 1897, interview of the Bulgarian former prime-minister Karavelov. Its quite interesting, especially the part of his interview where he says " In Macedonia there are Greeks, Bulgarians and Turks."
Of course nowhere is mentioned anything about an alledged 'macedonian' ethnicity.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/karavellofinterview.jpg

Another interview from a former Bulgarian prime minister. This time a greek reporter takes an interview from Vasil Radoslavov and its published in the paper of 22 December 1897. Again Radoslavov is talking about the Bulgarians and Greeks of Macedonia. No "Macedonians' of the skopjan type found yet. :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/radoslavovinterview.jpg

[Tsontos]

Interview of Greek consul in Serres, Stournaras in the Greek newspaper 'Empros' in the paper of 21 August of 1903. Stournaras was an eye-witness of Ilinden uprising and he is talking here about the uprising.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/stournaras1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/stournaras2.jpg

Journalist- Do you believe that the uprising in Macedonia will be suppressed soon?
Stournaras- There is no uprising in Macedonia. Noone from the inhabitants has rebelled against the rulers of the region. There is an incursion of Bulgarian gunmen and other brigands and nothing more. Do you believe that these low-numbered Bulgarians will be able to conquer Macedonia or force the inhabitants to rebel? The result of their clashes with Turkish army verifies the opposite. Everywhere they were defeated and shattered. The ending of this incursion is near. But the most important is that these men, these alledged burned by patriotism, dont fight. In each encounter with Turkish army, they run like sheeps. They only shoot when they are surrounded and cant find their way out. But in all these occasions everything was shattered. Heroism, self-sacrifices, altruism is something unknown to them. They are throwing dynamites and murder whenever there is no danger. They murder mostly to scatter terror. But there is a general impression in Macedonia that they never stand and fight. Because of that, there are the results which we hear about them being killed 10 times more than the turks. While running to get away they dont even shoot.

I couldnt believe that if i didnt see it almost with my own eyes. In one clash in Panitze, outside of Serres, a few months ago where the notorious Delchev was murdered and 52 Bulgarians were arrested, only 2 Bulgarians managed to escape and the rest were killed. This of course has no meaning anymore, because through the fuss they managed to create, many believe now in Europe that Macedonian question is actually Bulgarian question.

[Tsontos]

Newspaper 'Empros' of Monday 25th November 1896. Title "Mutiny in Macedonia"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/stasisinmacedonia.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/stasisinmacedonia2.jpg

Lets see what the article says.

While the greek goverment is sleeping and uses proclamations as cure for the situation, Hellenism runs down the greatest danger in Macedonia because except Bulgarians, there were added more impudent emenies, Serbs. Like we learn from our Vienna's letter, thousands of Serb peasants in Skopje, rebelled against the Greek Metropolitan bishop, surrounded the greek school, raided the church, burned the greek books and raised the Serb flag, instigated without doubt by Serb and Pan-slavist komitates and commiting all these shames while one newspaper of St. Petersburg wrote according to yesterday's letter that "Macedonian question" will be solved between Serbs and bulgarians

[Tsontos]

From the greek Feminist newspaper "Εφημερίδα των Κυριών", published in Athens, at the paper of 31 July of 1888.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/efimeristonkirion.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/efimeristonkirion2.jpg

In the text we can read lines like "we, fellow-citizen women, imitating our ancestor, we can break through the Gordian Knot" or "we shouldnt limit the teaching in the typical and etymological grammar, in analysis of periods and speeches, in the simple narration of the achievements from Miltiades, Themistocles, Alexander and Philopoemen..." that leave no room for doubt and contrary to the FYROMian propaganda, Greeks of 19th century viewed Alexander as their ancestor and his achievements were taught in Greek schools among the accomplishments of other famous ancient Greeks.

Greek feminist newspaper of 1888 verifies Alexander was Greek « History Of Macedonia (http://historyofmacedonia.wordpress.com/2007/02/05/greek-feminist-newspaper-of-1888-verifies-alexander-was-greek/)

[Victor]

Everywhere they were defeated and shattered. The ending of this incursion is near. But the most important is that these men, these alledged burned by patriotism, dont fight. In each encounter with Turkish army, they run like sheeps.

Whats amazing is that in Krushevo,the Vlahs who joined the ilinden uprising fought to the end and didnt 'run like sheeps',and when the Turks took revenge,they caused far more damage in the Vlah part of the town than the Bulgarian part.

[Tsontos]

The Greek Government crisis was weathered.

Out walked Premier Papanastasiou (TIME, July 28) and in trotted Premier Sofoulis, ex-Governor of Macedonia, followed by five staunch supporters:

Premier and Marine: S. Sofoulis.

Finance: M. Tsouderos, ex-Foreign Minister under Venizelos.

Foreign Affairs: Georges Roussos, ex-Foreign Minister and one-time Minister to the U. S.

War: General Katehakis.

Interior: General Peter Mavromiethaelis.

Agriculture: M. Mylonas, also in the Venizelos Cabinet.

-Time Magazine, 'New Cabinet' Monday, Aug. 04, 1924




--------------------




Said Bulgarian Prime Minister Kimon Georgiev, whose country is controlled by the Red Army and Communist-dominated Partisan bands: "I can definitely state Bulgaria will create no difficulties." But Greek Macedonia is the richest of all Greek provinces and includes the big Aegean port of Salonika.

Time Magazine, 'New Power', Monday, Dec. 04, 1944



-------------------



The Greek Governor General of Macedonia said that no refugees were streaming into Yugoslavia, charged that Slav terrorists were raiding Greek villages. From Rome the Chicago Daily News's Balkan-wise Leigh White cabled: Marshal Tito had apparently launched his long-planned drive to expand federal Yugoslavia at the expense of Greek Macedonia. From Athens the New York Times's European Chief Cyrus Sulzberger reported: "There is a pattern behind these events linked to the politically homogeneous Governments of Greece's three northern neighbors [Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Albania], who are all ideologically tied to the Soviet Union." Was Russia, through her Balkan satellites, resuming a historic push toward a warm-water port on the Aegean Sea?

The overwhelming majority of Greeks did not want to lose Macedonia. The dominant Communist element in EAM lost popularity when it came out in favor of a "little Greece" and the cession of Macedonia to a Balkan federation. Last week EAM echoed the Belgrade and Moscow press: it publicly attacked the Voulgaris Government for promoting a "regime of terror."



-Time Magazine, 'Toward Warm Water?', Monday, Jul. 23, 1945

[Tsontos]

Thanks to Jordan piperkata for finding this :lol:

Evangelos Kofos' 1964 book, attacking Yugoslav fabrications and forced "encouragement" of a "Macedonian ethnicity". The stamp of the Etairia Makedoniwn Spoudwn is seen and hence relevant to this topic:

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/kofos_front.jpg

[Ehetlaios]

Thanks to Jordan piperkata for finding this :lol:

Evangelos Kofos' 1964 book, attacking Yugoslav fabrications and forced "encouragement" of a "Macedonian ethnicity". The stamp of the Etairia Makedoniwn Spoudwn is seen and hence relevant to this topic:

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/kofos_front.jpg

The Skops always manage to amaze me!!!!

It's as if they're working for our cause :rolleyes:

:thewave:

:thewave::thewave::jump::jump::jump::wiggle::wave:

[akritas]

In 1908, Greece published a book that described officially for first time the Greek Struggle in Macedonia.
Its name was "The Macedonian Calendar"--Makedonikon Hmerologion.
The book contributed in the free Greek schools and has 400 pages (small size) and here I post some pages.[


http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8721/1makedonikohmerologio19qi9.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9122/2makedonikohmerologio19nu8.jpg


http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9316/5makedonikohmerologio19mm6.jpg

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6113/6makedonikohmerologio19ts2.jpg

[Ptolemy]

I was browsing a page of the 71th International Trade Fair of Thessalonike (2006) (http://www.dpem.tuc.gr/robolab/GRPAGES/GR_NEWS/YEAR_2006/GR_THES.htm) and it made me wonder how did the earlier times of this annual great event for Thessalonike looked like. The Thessaloniki International Trade Fair has a history dating back to 1926.

So folks take a look to the official 1955 leaflets/tourist guides provided by the Greek state which all the international visitors were able to take with them back home.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/thessalonikeinternationaltouristgui.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/thessalonikeinternationaltourist-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/thessalonikeinternationaltourist-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/thessalonikeinternationaltourist-3.jpg

Wow did i just read the word Macedonia used by the official Greek administration in the greatest annual event of Thessalonike and this happens since...1926??

"Roads from Thessaloniki to the main towns of Macedonia". I know some people who wont be thrilled with the news!!


PS. Between 4-25 of September 1955, we had the 20th International Fair
Of Thessalonike.

[Mygdonia]

Exactly - to even mention that Macedonia did not exist in Greece before 1988 is absolutely laughable at best.
Unfortunately these people get taught by their scientists in the Skopje laboratory ..so it is not entirely his fault; this is what he believed growing up. Like the rest of them - living a blatant lie.


http://www.makedonikos.com/images/photos/istoriko/1942-1943.jpg

http://www.makedonikos.com/images/photos/istoriko/1946-1947.jpg

[4runner]

http://www.makedonikos.com/images/photos/istoriko/1942-1943.jpg
AWESOME!
That's my father in law, 6th from the right in the back row! He would have been about twenty then. Wow, what a blast seeing him here.

[Ptolemy]

Baron Konstantinos Mpelios was a Macedonian who worked hardly for Macedonia after the time of the Greek revolution. He became known as a benefactor, mostly helping poor families in Macedonia. I found some letters he wrote as back as 1836 to eminent Greeks and Macedonians who migrated to Greece after the establishment of the Greek kingdom.

His letters are quite interesting because:
- its clear the term "Macedonians" around 1836 is used solely for Greeks,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/eggrafo-4.jpg

- Macedonians consider Greece as their country

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/eggrafo-2.jpg

- He and the rest of Macedonians consider themselves as the descendants of Aristotel and Alexander the Great who "spread Greek thought in Asia",

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/eggrafo-5.jpg

- There is a considerable number of Macedonians who migrated to the liberated Greek soil and founded cities, reminding intensively Macedonia, ie Nea Pella of Lokris.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/eggrafo-3.jpg

- He used in his letters his own seal. Take a look at it in an enlarged picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/baronmpeliosmacedon-1.jpg

[Ptolemy]

The Greek Company of Scientific Researches were publishing books in Greece while sending similar reports to the Greek government under the title "Economy of Macedonia" in 1928.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/economyofmacedonia.jpg

The Greek "Club of scholars from Macedonia" were sending reports to the Greek government from education in Macedonia, having in the cover pictures of Alexander the Great in 1932.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/enosisekpaideutikonmakedonias.jpg

The undergraduates in the University of Thessalonike were listening to their Rector adressing them for being lucky to be in "the heart of Macedonia" just in 1928

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/omilia1928panepistimiothessalonike.jpg

...yet the knuckleheads of FYROM still insist on their dreams that 'Macedonia' was a strictly forbiden word prior to 1988 in Greece.

[kostas68]

What are these Bulgaroscopian lies?We didn't wake up suddenly a morning 50-60 years ago and decided to name ourselves Macedonians,like them,because we are the real Macedonians,3000 years ago.We allways used the terms <Macedonia> and <Macedonians>.
In our first newspapers,since 1876:
131


Our soldiers sent letters to their mothers after the liberation of Macedonia (1912-13) using paper like this:

132


We had a Miss Macedonia-Thrace(1929)!

133


We named our region <East Macedonia>,as you can see in a newspaper from 1935.

134




After all these,will they continue their miserable lies?

[kostas68]

I found also this newspaper which mentions the presence of dictator Metaxas,king George II,prince Andreas,prince Petros and the general administrator of Macedonia in the military exercises in Serres region.There is no date on it,but we can assume from Metaxas's presence that it must be between 1936 and 1940.
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=152&stc=1&d=1206114749

[Tsontos]

DO you have a bigger version of this scan Kosta?

[kostas68]

DO you have a bigger version of this scan Kosta?

It's done my friend!Now the scan is very clearer.

[kostas68]

I want to thank our scopian friend Dimitar,because without his post 5-6 days ago that no one Greek in Macedonia had ever claimed he is Macedonian before 1988, i would never searched and found all these very interesting pics:
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/8531/empapjb2.th.gif (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=empapjb2.gif)
Translation:The Serrean commander in chief of the Macedonian forces during the holy struggle of 1821,Emmanouil Papas.
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5649/makedoniaefbg7.th.gif (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=makedoniaefbg7.gif)
The newspaper <Makedonia> from Thessaloniki,1913,with the images of Alexander and Filip.
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=175&stc=1&d=1206200389
During the first balkan war,Serres and the whole region of East Macedonia was occupied by the Bulgarians for 9 months(September 1912-Juni 1913).As you can see,the Bulgarian millitary authorities used the Greek language for their announcements(which hade the signature of the <general administrator of Macedonia> General Vulkov)to the inhabitants.Why this?Why they didn't use the Bulgarian language,which is most comprehensive to the <Makedonskis> than the Greek one?Or there didn't live any <Makedonskis>?
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/2160/191213ib1.th.gif (http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=191213ib1.gif)
Translation:Greece liberating Macedonia.
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/3181/ergasiaxh6.th.gif (http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ergasiaxh6.gif)
This article refers to the destruction of Serres by the Bulgarians.The city is called <Macedonian diamond>,founded in the richest <Macedonian plain> which <illuminated the whole of East Macedonia>.

[Tsontos]

Thanks kosta!

[kostas68]

I left the best for the end:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=167&stc=1&d=1206137094

Congress of agricultural cooperatives of East Macedonia in Serres,1919.(The guy with the turban on his head was a Turk.At this time there were a lot of them in this region.)

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=168&stc=1&d=1206137351

An announcement from the general millitary administrator of Serres,in which is twice mentioned the<ex general millitary administrator of East Macedonia>,1922.

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=169&stc=1&d=1206137643

What have we here?A declaration from the political party of the king's supporters.There is no date,but we can conclude from the facts which it mentions that it must be probably from the elections of 1926.It's addressing to the native Macedonian constituents,remarking that king George I liberated Macedonia and expanded the Greek state and to the refugees,blaiming Eleytherios Venizelos for their misery.

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=170&stc=1&d=1206138139

There was at 1922 in Serres a department of the Thessalonian <political union of Macedonian youth>,who claimed that they were liberated at 1913.By whome were liberated those fools?Didn't they know that they were enslaved by the Greek fascists this year and that their homeland was divided between Greece,Serbia and Bulgaria?Poore kids,if the Skopje University with his made in Taiwan unlikely <History> existed at this time,they would know the truth...

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=171&stc=1&d=1206138683

Democratic Youth of Serres,the party of El.Venizelos.But what they say?<To the Greek people,Macedonians>.What an audacity!Only a few years after they were enslaved to the Greeks and they adopted the Greek propaganda!Anyway,they are blaiming king Constantinos I and his supporters that<these are who enslaved us to the Germans and the Bulgarians in 1916,because Konstantinos was brother-in-law with the German Kaiser and he didn't care if 100.000 Macedonians would die>.

[Amarantos]

μπραβο!

[kostas68]

This is the Geography book i had in the 3th Grade,1977:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=180&stc=1&d=1206460564

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=181&stc=1&d=1206460700

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=182&stc=1&d=1206460820

[Dimitar. M]

I want to thank our scopian friend Dimitar,because without his post 5-6 days ago that no one Greek in Macedonia had ever claimed he is Macedonian before 1988, i would never searched and found all these very interesting pics:
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=154&stc=1&d=1206126079
Translation:The Serrean commander in chief of the Macedonian forces during the holy struggle of 1821,Emmanouil Papas.
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=155&stc=1&d=1206126594
The newspaper <Makedonia> from Thessaloniki,1913,with the images of Alexander and Filip.
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=175&stc=1&d=1206200389
During the first balkan war,Serres and the whole region of East Macedonia was occupied by the Bulgarians for 9 months(September 1912-Juni 1913).As you can see,the Bulgarian millitary authorities used the Greek language for their announcements(which hade the signature of the <general administrator of Macedonia> General Vulkov)to the inhabitants.Why this?Why they didn't use the Bulgarian language,which is most comprehensive to the <Makedonskis> than the Greek one?Or there didn't live any <Makedonskis>?
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=157&stc=1&d=1206128540
Translation:Greece liberating Macedonia.
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=158&stc=1&d=1206128974
This article refers to the destruction of Serres by the Bulgarians.The city is called <Macedonian diamond>,founded in the richest <Macedonian plain> which <illuminated the whole East Macedonia>.


:clapping:. Man i simply can't stop laughting. I don't know if this is because you can't understand me or you don't wan't to?

Where have i said that Greeks didn't used the word Macedonia? i never said that right? I said that no Greek identified himself as Macedonian(even in a regional way). And all this is trolling, because you don't give me a member of the macedonian struggle or anything else who identified as such. You just troll with the use of the word Macedonia by Greeks.
You see i wan't to find what the identity of those people> if it was Macedonian why can't we find it.
No you go and give me another Greek document that has the word Macedonia in it to proove me that they were ''Macedonians'' :rolleyes:


As for the Serres document what does it tell us? Nothing much. Because that letter refers to the Greeks that lived in the town. But we don't know how much they were.;). If you think that the letter prooves that the whole town was Greek then:rolleyes:

[Dimitar. M]

This is the Geography book i had in the 3th Grade,1977:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=180&stc=1&d=1206460564

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=181&stc=1&d=1206460700

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=182&stc=1&d=1206460820

And there are geography and school books from Greece in 1977 that call us Macedonia and Macedonians.;)

http://www.balkanium.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49683&postcount=1077

[Dimitar. M]

I left the best for the end:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=167&stc=1&d=1206137094

Congress of agricultural cooperatives of East Macedonia in Serres,1919.(The guy with the turban on his head was a Turk.At this time there were a lot of them in this region.)

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=168&stc=1&d=1206137351

An announcement from the general millitary administrator of Serres,in which is twice mentioned the<ex general millitary administrator of East Macedonia>,1922.

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=169&stc=1&d=1206137643

What have we here?A declaration from the political party of the king's supporters.There is no date,but we can conclude from the facts which it mentions that it must be probably from the elections of 1926.It's addressing to the native Macedonian constituents,remarking that king George I liberated Macedonia and expanded the Greek state and to the refugees,blaiming Eleytherios Venizelos for their misery.

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=170&stc=1&d=1206138139

There was at 1922 in Serres a department of the Thessalonian <political union of Macedonian youth>,who claimed that they were liberated at 1913.By whome were liberated those fools?Didn't they know that they were enslaved by the Greek fascists this year and that their homeland was divided between Greece,Serbia and Bulgaria?Poore kids,if the Skopje University with his made in Taiwan unlikely <History> existed at this time,they would know the truth...

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=171&stc=1&d=1206138683

Democratic Youth of Serres,the party of El.Venizelos.But what they say?<To the Greek people,Macedonians>.What an audacity!Only a few years after they were enslaved to the Greeks and they adopted the Greek propaganda!Anyway,they are blaiming king Constantinos I and his supporters that<these are who enslaved us to the Germans and the Bulgarians in 1916,because Konstantinos was brother-in-law with the German Kaiser and he didn't care if 100.000 Macedonians would die>.

Yes we call them Grkomani ;).
You can find many of those in Greece today. The sons of Alexander the great:rolleyes:



I regard these people as my kin.;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Government_of_Macedonia_%281880%29
Macedonians for Macedonia.

[kostas68]

Don't wory,Dimitraki i'll answer later,i'm busy now and at 18:30 i have to watch on TV a basketball match(despite i don't like basketball at all,but it's the final of the Greek cup)and at 21:30 the friendly football match Greece-Portugal).I'll answer probably tonight late,after 24:00 or tomorrow.Bye-bye now!

[Hellas7]

You have changed your argument.


All you skopjans say we NEVER used the NAME Makedonia. Now you are saying, "just show me where you call yourselves Macedonians".


Well, what do you think one who comes from Macedonia is, smart guy? When somebody from there says, "I am from Macedonia" what do you think they are calling themselves? MACEDONIANS. There is no need to go shouting it from rooftops, it is implied. Before you wannabe Macedonians, there was no need to defend our Macedonian heritage. Because you are stealing it, we must now defend it.

Macedonians and from Macedonia.

Athenians are from Athens.

Spartans are from Sparta.

Cretans are from Crete.


WE ARE ALL GREEK. There is NO CONFUSION when a Macedonian refers to himself as a GREEK first, because this is what he is. It is only to you Bulgars that there is confusion.


Now be gone with you.

[Tsontos]

This thread relates to the specific Skopjian claim that Greeks denied the existence of the term Macedonia since 1988, one expressed on the numerous SKopjian websites. If you want to debate other aspects then open another thread Dimitar.

[Tsontos]

Even the Skopjian foreign minister Antonio Milososki today used this claim in an interview with a foreign newspaper:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/macedonia-news/5962-foreign-press-macedonian-issue-5.html#post62338

The Greek side is claiming they have the name FYROMacedonia as a province name in northern Greece. They renamed this province in 1988, and the Republic of Macedonia existed in [what was then] Yugoslavia, and no one disputed our name whatsoever. But I think it is not about the name but about the FYROMacedonian minority living in Greece.

Shame on him, he's a liar.

[Victor]

I said that no Greek identified himself as Macedonian(even in a regional way). And all this is trolling, because you don't give me a member of the macedonian struggle or anything else who identified as such. You just troll with the use of the word Macedonia by Greeks.
You see i wan't to find what the identity of those people> if it was Macedonian why can't we find it.
No you go and give me another Greek document that has the word Macedonia in it to proove me that they were ''Macedonians'' :rolleyes:


As for the Serres document what does it tell us? Nothing much. Because that letter refers to the Greeks that lived in the town. But we don't know how much they were.;). If you think that the letter prooves that the whole town was Greek then:rolleyes:FIrst of all,none of your ancestors in Buf 100 years ago identified as a Macedonian,ethnicaly or regionally.Give me proof that Im wrong.

AS for Serres,how many of your people have roots there?Not even one!So in reality,Serres is irrelevant to you,just like Salonica(your capital:rolleyes:),DRama,Kavala,Veria,Grevena,and many other places in Macedonia.

And if none of those documents dont prove that Greeks identified regionally as Macedonian,imash kameni vo glata.No wonder we beat you every time.

[Victor]

Yes we call them Grkomani ;).
You can find many of those in Greece today. The sons of Alexander the great:rolleyes:



I regard these people as my kin.;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Government_of_Macedonia_%281880%29
Macedonians for Macedonia.First,those people are definately NOT Gerkomani,which you would know if you werent a deluded kuchka serbomanka.
SEcond,your "kin" the Gerkomans are from the same places 99% of you Serbomans are from in Greece-the Florina,KAstoria and Edessa areas.
Poor Dime,always on the losing side.:p

[Victor]

And there are geography and school books from Greece in 1977 that call us Macedonia and Macedonians.;)

http://www.balkanium.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49683&postcount=1077

Great,there are two Macedonias and Macedonians.THats why you immoral,illegal,dishohest,evil,anti-Christian,satanic,baby-killing,invented-by-communists imitators will be forced to change your name so no one will confuse used-to-be-Bulgarian fyromanian usurpers with the real deal from Greece.

I applaud a free country like Greece for putting out scholarly books that described Yugoslavia as Yugoslavia described itself(even though the name Macedonia was clearly stolen from Greece and illegally used for irredentist purposes).We know the kind of nasty,scandalous,libelous,malicious propaganda YUgoslav Macedonia was spreading about Greece and GReek Macedonia.Clearly the propaganda ran only one way-from north to south,proving that the Greek academic community was independant from the Greek government.The YUgoslav Macedonian academic community had no independance at all and was simply another proppaganda tool of the regional communist government in SKoplje.Very pathetic and sad. :(

But of course,academic books are one thing.The Greek government officially NEVER recognized an "ethnic MAcedonian" people(and never will).Greece only had diplomatic relations with YUgoslavia,and only spoke with Belgrade,NOT with the usurpers in SKoplje.

[Dimitar. M]

FIrst of all,none of your ancestors in Buf 100 years ago identified as a Macedonian,ethnicaly or regionally.Give me proof that Im wrong.

104 years ago.;)
http://www.ellisisland.org/search/passRecord.asp?MID=11530056850150284640&LNM=VEL&PLNM=VEL&last_kind=1&town_kind=0&ship_kind=0&TOWN=null&SHIP=null&RF=82&ETHS=446&pID=102510090067


Will you shut it now.:angry:

[Draco]

If you have to rely on dubious things like that to prove your "existence" I'd say the game is already lost. Dubious because "Macedonian" does not necessarily mean "Nov Makedonec". It's an assumption, a circular argument.

[Draco]

After going to the "ethnicity" (!) list (http://www.ellisisland.org/search/refinesearch.asp?LNM=VEL&PLNM=VEL&last_kind=1&town_kind=0&ship_kind=0&TOWN=null&SHIP=null&RF=82&ETHS=446&ALTS=97%7C%3Fel&ALTS=97%7Cval&) on that website, I have come across some other interesting ethnicities such as "Newfoundlanders", "Asians", and "Europeans". Cool, "ethnic Europeans"!.. I think those designations may have much to do with place of birth. If this is the only evidence supporting the "historical" existence of the Novi Makedonci, well... :p

[kostas68]

:clapping:. Man i simply can't stop laughting. I don't know if this is because you can't understand me or you don't wan't to?

Where have i said that Greeks didn't used the word Macedonia? i never said that right? I said that no Greek identified himself as Macedonian(even in a regional way).

It seems that the one who can't or don't want understand it's you,Dimitraki.I don't know if this is because you didn't read carefully my post or due to your typical scopjan behaviour to falsifying everything.Look what i wrote...

I want to thank our scopian friend Dimitar,because without his post 5-6 days ago that no one Greek in Macedonia had ever claimed he is Macedonian before 1988, i would never searched and found all these very interesting pics:

...and tell me,where you read something different from what you said?Where i'm falsifying your words and claiming that you said we didn't use the term <Macedonia> before 1988?It's true that you didn't say that but it's also true that many of your compatriots did it,as far as i have seen here and in some of yours forums.

And all this is trolling, because you don't give me a member of the macedonian struggle or anything else who identified as such.

I have such a document but i can't post any pictures at this moment because i have exceeded my quota.Be patient and in few days i'll post it.

You just troll with the use of the word Macedonia by Greeks.
You see i wan't to find what the identity of those people> if it was Macedonian why can't we find it.
No you go and give me another Greek document that has the word Macedonia in it to proove me that they were ''Macedonians'' :rolleyes:

It's conspicuous to every unbiased and neutral observer who looks the book in which somebody calls his compatriot <commander -in-chief of Macedonian forces during the holly struggle of 1821>that they were consequently and called themselves Greek-Makedones.And you tell me what?That i'm <trolling with the use of the word Macedonia by Greeks> and <we can't find the identity of those people>!If you had the minimal indication that they were Slavs-<Makedontsite> you would find it very easily.

As for the Serres document what does it tell us? Nothing much. Because that letter refers to the Greeks that lived in the town. But we don't know how much they were.;). If you think that the letter prooves that the whole town was Greek then:rolleyes:

It's a progress that you recognize that in a Macedonian city lived Greeks before 1922!It must be a big lie that the pupils in FYROM are learning that in Macedonia before 1922 lived only <Makedontsite> and the Greeks came after 1922 with the population exchange between Greece and Turkey.As for Serres,you must know that this city was the bastion of Hellenism in Eastern Macedonia,there weren't any Slavs and the Greek inhabitants were only Hellenophones.The population of the city was before the liberation 30.000,from them 16.000 Greeks,13.000 Turks and 1.000 Jews who were exterminated by the Nazis in WW2.The Bulgarians knew that this city and the whole region was an obstruct for their plans and when they occupied Eastern Macedonia 3 times in the last century(1912-13,1916-18,1941-44)they used every way to dehellenize the people like prohibitions,executions,concetration camps.(About 90 men from my village died in Bulgarian concentration camps as from many other villages).So,it's not just my opinion that <the whole town was Greek> and i know exactly how many Greeks lived there and i hope you will allow me to know better than you my homeland's history.

And there are geography and school books from Greece in 1977 that call us Macedonia and Macedonians.

30 years ago the scopian propaganda was almost unknown to the Greeks.No one Greek had heard you(i mean your people,not you personaly) at this time claiming your descend from the ancient Macedonians,they didn't know your territorial claims or your claims about the <Macedonian minority> in Greece.So,it wasn't a problem for the authors to call you <Macedonians>(with slavic origin that excludes every connection with the ancient Macedonians)and your land <Macedonia>,as it wasn't an independent and sovereign state,given it was a republic of Yougoslavia and this was it's official name who's use wasn't a threat for Greek.Now,since your masks have fallen the circumstances have changed and no one in Greece and espacially a Macedonian can call you with this name.Maybe you'll say:<We are not a threat for you,how can you fear a small country like us?>,but it's not so simply.Who knows what could happen after 30,40 or 50 years?Things can easily change and it isn't wise to neglect for the future,when your neighbor's children are growing up with the brainwashing theory that <our borders are in Larisa,Halkidiki and Kavala>and <Alexander the Great was born here,in our land>.You see,the big problem isn't that many people are learning history in forums like this.The big problem is the history which are learning the pupils in your country.
But the most important for me and i believe for all the Makedones is the moral view of this issue.I wrote it in another post:It's the same thing like if somebody appears suddenly,claiming that he is my illegitimate son and tries to be legal reckognized as my son and share my property?Should i allow him to do this?

Yes we call them Grkomani .
You can find many of those in Greece today. The sons of Alexander the great
I regard these people as my kin.

Who is trolling now,Dimitraki?I posted documents from the 20's where several political parties and organizations called <Makedones> the Greek people of a Greek city(and notice that this people wasn't slavophone,there weren't slavophones in this city,so you can't say that those announcements were addressing to <grkomans>, which you consider as <yours>,absolutely wrongfully,but for this you can read below) and you made 2 serious mistakes: You say they were Grkomani(slavophones)considering them as <Makedontsi>,but the Grkomani were fanatical Greeks.They had Greek schools in their villages which they maintened with their own money.Many of them were Makedonomachoi,felt hatred for the Bulgarians,fought against them fiercely and remained faithfull to Hellenism allthough they suffered many times the most cruel tortures by the komitadji.Therefor the bigest attrocities by the komitadji were against those Grkomani and not against the Hellenophones.They made the same mistake with you,they considered them as their kin but the Grkomani,who i consider the most heroical from the Greek-Makedones gave them the proper respond.You can read more about them in Douglas Daikin book<The Greek struggle in Macedonia>.But you are such an insular that you define the ethnicity of a people only by his language.Have you ever wondered,Dimitraki,why those Grkomani allways insisted that they are Greeks?Do you know that the 80% of the Irish and the Scots speeks only English?You know what they feel for England,but instead their own languages they speek only English.How do you explain this,Dimitraki?
The second big mistake you made,is that in the city of Serres weren't any Grkomani as i wrote before.There were some villages with slavophone inhabitants(actually many of them were not slavophones but bilinguals),most in the northern area of today's Serres prefecture but no one in the city.They were pure Greeks who fought heroicaly for Hellenism and gave us some great Makedonomachoi who were sacrificed for Greek Macedonia,like Mitrousis Gogalakis,Athanasios Chatzipantazis and Papa-Paschalis Tsiagas.I know some people from a village where the inhabitant's were slavophones and if you make the mistake to tell them that they aren't Greeks you will regret it.

P.S.As for a post of yours(i couldn't find it) that your cousins in Florina are the first generation of your family who speeks only Greek,don't be so sure for this.If you search your roots deep,you will be surprised detecting how many of your ancestors spoke only Greek.

[Victor]

104 years ago.;)
http://www.ellisisland.org/search/passRecord.asp?MID=11530056850150284640&LNM=VEL&PLNM=VEL&last_kind=1&town_kind=0&ship_kind=0&TOWN=null&SHIP=null&RF=82&ETHS=446&pID=102510090067


Will you shut it now.:angry:Turkey-Macedonian?WHat the hell does that even mean?Compound-name ethnicity?Double ethnicity formula??
I am still right\,and if we took a time machine and asked Kirie Veljanoff(no -ski) what he "is",I bet a thousand dollars he would either say something neutral like Christian,or something you wouldnt want to hear my Bulgarche prijatel.:p

[Dimitar. M]

After going to the "ethnicity" (!) list (http://www.ellisisland.org/search/refinesearch.asp?LNM=VEL&PLNM=VEL&last_kind=1&town_kind=0&ship_kind=0&TOWN=null&SHIP=null&RF=82&ETHS=446&ALTS=97%7C%3Fel&ALTS=97%7Cval&) on that website, I have come across some other interesting ethnicities such as "Newfoundlanders", "Asians", and "Europeans". Cool, "ethnic Europeans"!.. I think those designations may have much to do with place of birth. If this is the only evidence supporting the "historical" existence of the Novi Makedonci, well... :p


ihhiiihihihi:clap2:, you defend your friend now.

I didn't showed this as a proove of a historic evidence(even thought it is) but as a responce to VICTOR that noone in Buff identified himself as MACEDONIAN 100 years ago.

We identified 100 years ago and we identify now.
You don't need to get upset about that.;) Chill and better not write anything because you are geting redicilous.

[Dimitar. M]

Turkey-Macedonian?WHat the hell does that even mean?Compound-name ethnicity?Double ethnicity formula??
I am still right\,and if we took a time machine and asked Kirie Veljanoff(no -ski) what he "is",I bet a thousand dollars he would either say something neutral like Christian,or something you wouldnt want to hear my Bulgarche prijatel.:p


:clap2:, with this awnser you almost made me fall of my chair.:clapping:


WHat the hell does that even mean?Compound-name ethnicity?Double ethnicity formula??

It means my ignorant friend that he is from Buff, which was in Turkey back then ands that his etniccy is Macedonian.

Keep playing dumb. It suits you;)

[Dimitar. M]

But you are such an insular that you define the ethnicity of a people only by his language.Have you ever wondered,Dimitraki,why those Grkomani allways insisted that they are Greeks?Do you know that the 80% of the Irish and the Scots speeks only English?You know what they feel for England,but instead their own languages they speek only English.How do you explain this,Dimitraki?


I have a lot of remarks( and things you wrote well) but i will awnser just this.

You wrote nicely there. Now tell me if what you write here is true and you are unbiased person how can you call the people in Macedonia ,,Bulgarians'' when 99% resempt them just as the Grkomani.

As the Grkomani have Slavic langauge, but you say they are not Bulgarians?
Because langauge doesn't define etnicy. How do you explain the trolling by almost all Greeks on this subject. Do they think that by making us more Bulgarian they achieve something more than just an ignorant insult(which for me is not even an insult)

[Draco]

Actually we call you Bulgarians because your grandparents (or great grandparents, depending on how old you are) used to identify as Bulgarians. It's mostly a joke though...

Dimitar, if language does not define ethnicity, what do you think does?

[Draco]

As the Grkomani have Slavic langauge, but you say they are not Bulgarians?
Off the top of my head: because most of them speak Greek better than Bulgarian. There is a study somewhere on the NET detailing the low proficiency of the Bulgarian-speakers in northern Greece (presumably due to the lack of schooling in the language).

[kostas68]

I have a lot of remarks( and things you wrote well) but i will awnser just this.

You wrote nicely there. Now tell me if what you write here is true and you are unbiased person how can you call the people in Macedonia ,,Bulgarians'' when 99% resempt them just as the Grkomani.

As the Grkomani have Slavic langauge, but you say they are not Bulgarians?
Because langauge doesn't define etnicy. How do you explain the trolling by almost all Greeks on this subject. Do they think that by making us more Bulgarian they achieve something more than just an ignorant insult(which for me is not even an insult)

I'll give you another example about language,ethnicity and national consciousness:The Austrians,as the whole world knows,speek German,have German origin(although they may have a biger percentage of mix with Celts,Slavs,Hungarians than the other Germans,but, as i wrote in another post,only the Eskimos are 100% pure and unmixed,because there wasn't any other tribe living close to them).Now tell me,Dimitraki,do you believe that the Austrians haven't German origin because they call themselves <Austrians> and not <Germans>?They have almost the same language with the Germans(with some little differences in accent) as you have almost the same language with the Bulgarians,they have the same culture with the Germans as you have the same culture with the Bulgarians and, the most important:a historical person,who played a very important role in Germany's modern history,was an Austrian(i'm talking about Hitler and this fact makes evident that although the Austrians don't call themselves Germans,their leaders 60-70 years ago had German national consciousness),as many of the historical persons who played important role in Bulgaria's modern history were <Makedontsite>,like Goce Delchev,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Goce_delchev_murder_jpg..gif

Dame Gruev...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Letter_No._534_from_the_General_Staff_of_the _Second_Macedonian-Adrianople_Revolutionary_Region.jpg

...and many others,whereas the Grkomani were fighting against the Bulgarians,not for them.
So,even if you don't call nowadays yourselves Bulgarians,your leaders 100 years ago had Bulgarian national consciousness,because,as a Greek adage says:<to ema nero den ginete>(The blood can't becomes water).But if you don't want anymore to call yourselves Bulgarians,you have every right to do this,it's your problem,not our.For us the problem starts when you decide to call yourselves with a name that's not belonging to you, neither historically nor ethnically,but to us.And if it is used only inside your country,this usurpation certainly hurts us but we can't do anything for this,but if you demand from the whole world to call you with our name,we can't stay inactive.

[Ptolemy]

"Efimeris Kyverniseos" [Official Newspaper of the Government] 15th Feb. of 1963.

Greek Kingdom honours Makedonomachoi between 1902-1908

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/efimeriskiberniseosmakedonomachoi.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/government_newspaper_makedonikos_ag.jpg

Wow!! the official newspaper of the State uses the name "Makedonia" and its derivatives, even on a...stamp. Wait a min!! I thought it was forbidden! :rolleyes:

[Victor]

:clap2:, with this awnser you almost made me fall of my chair.:clapping:



It means my ignorant friend that he is from Buff, which was in Turkey back then ands that his etniccy is Macedonian.

Keep playing dumb. It suits you;)Buf,the little Bulgaria of the FLorina villages,was NEVER in Turkey,it was in the OTTOman empire,and it clearly says "Turkey-Macedonian" under ethnicity,NOT Macedonian.And even if it did say only Macedonian,it doesnt tell us a lot because
in the nineteenth century the term Macedonian was used almost exclusively to refer to the geographic region;the Macedonians were usually not considered a nationality seperate from the Bulgarians,Greeks,SErbs,or ALbanians.THe diplomatic records of the period make no clear mention of a seperate Macedonian nation.
History Of The BAlkans
BArbara Jelavich
page 91
So you or I cant prove if Macedonian on an Ellis ISland passenger record really meant ethnic identity,regional identity,or anything else.But here is a clue told to me by a Bufchanets about your friends family.
THere were Veljanoffs from Buf who settled in the AMerican midwest,helped build a Bulgarian church,and joined the Bulgarian organization MPO.
Ask your mother to tell you if Boze was one of them.

[kostas68]

Dimitrios Pazis was a doctor from Serres and elections candidate at 1915.This is his speech to the people of Tzoumajia(former turkish name of today's Irakleia).You can read in the second marked point<ημάς μεν τους Μακεδόνας>(us the Macedonians).A Scopjan would say that this man was a Grkoman(slavophone Greek)and used the term <Makedones> for Grkomani like him.That's exactly what our friend Dimitar did,when i posted announcements of political parties from 1922,where the Greeks of Serres were called <Makedones>.His answer was:<They were Grkomani and i consider them as my kin>!As you know,the Scopjans believe that the Grkomani were theirs,allthough Grkomani were the most fanatical Greeks.Thus,for Scopians this wouldn't be a proof that Greeks of Macedonia called themselves <Makedones> since 1915,as this term was used only by slavophones.But as you will read below,when Pazis says <us the Macedonians>,he don't means the Grkomani but the Hellenophones,because he says:<Και έτσι αρχίζει η άλλη προδοσία της Ελληνικής Μακεδονίας,την οποίαν θέλουν να παραστήσουν ως μωσαϊκόν εθνοτήτων,εν τω οποίω εξέχουσαν θέσιν κατέχουν οι Τούρκοι και ίσως εις άλλην περίοδον οι Βούλγαροι,οι οποίοι αργότερα βεβαίως ενθαρρυμένοι από τας τοιαύτας τάσεις Ελλήνων κυβερνητών,θα υποκινήσουν τους ξενογλώσσους εδώ ομοεθνείς μας εις τοιαύτας απαιτήσεις και ορέξεις.(And so begins the other betrayal of Greek Macedonia,which they want to show as a mosaic of ethnicities,in which the Turks have major status,or in another time the Bulgarians,who,heartened offcourse from such attitude of Greek governors,will later incite our non greek-speeking compatriots to such demands and wishes).
He mentions clearly non Greek-speaking compatriots of him as something distinguished.And below he says:
<Και σας ερωτώ,κύριοι,ποιοι είναι οι προδότες της Μακεδονίας και οι εχθροί των Ελλήνων Μακεδόνων?> (And i ask you,sirs:Who are the traitors of Macedonia and the enemies of Greek Macedonians?)
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=183&stc=1&d=1207087983

[Tsontos]

Bravo Kosta. Can you get any better resolution of the last one?

[kostas68]

Bravo Kosta. Can you get any better resolution of the last one?

I can't post a better resolution of the whole picture. I have saved it in my pc and his real size is 3,66 mb and there it's very clear,but the problem is when i'm posting it,it falls off at 98 kb.But i can enlarge the marked points,which are the most important and,here you are:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=184&stc=1&d=1207134893
Translation:<us the Macedonians>

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=185&stc=1&d=1207135027
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=186&stc=1&d=1207135132
Translation:<And so begins the other betrayal of Greek Macedonia,which they want to show as a mosaic of ethnicities,in which the Turks have major status,or in another time maybe the Bulgarians,who,heartened offcourse from such attitude of Greek governors,will later incite our non greek-speaking compatriots to such demands and wishes>.

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=187&stc=1&d=1207135617
Translation:<And i ask you,sirs:Who are the traitors of Macedonia and the enemies of Greek Macedonians?Only the current goverment!>

[Tsontos]

The site of the Εταιρία Μακεδονικών Σπουδών / Society of Macedonian Studies, mentioned earlier in this thread, packed full of its own publications which smash this Skopjian lie.

Example:

http://www.ems.gr/ems/client/userfiles/image/Makedonika/Makedonika_1.jpg


εκδώσεις / publications:

http://www.ems.gr/ekdoseis_katalogos.php?catid=13&subcatid=15

[Ptolemy]

Axxxxxx Andrew Andrew!! :D :D

I thought we were talking about the Greek geography books and why isn't there Macedonia in Greece??
Plus I didn't knew that the kids in Greece learned from National geography chanel in 1962 :D :D :D.
Plus National Geography is not a Greek!!

Which reminds me!! Can you people here find a official Greek history or geography books for high or elementary school prior to 1988 where Macedonia is mentioned in Greece??

Excellent idea. Lets check out a Geography school book of 1978.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/geographia1978.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/geographia1978geogrdiamerismata.jpg

Points of Interest:

1. The term "Macedonia" is used SOLELY for the greek province of Macedonia.

2. The well-known Fyromian LIE that Greece prohibited the usage of the term "Macedonia" prior to 1988 is shattered, unfortunately for fyromian propagandists.

3. The well-known Fyromian LIE that Greece used the term "Northern Territories" instead of 'Macedonia' is again destroyed, unfortunately for fyromian propagandists.

[hippokrates]

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1797/dsc00624li0.jpg

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5070/dsc00628oy6.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1961/dsc00629ip0.jpg

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/7909/dsc00630nb2.jpg

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/551/dsc00631er5.jpg

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/2543/dsc00632iv4.jpg

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/451/dsc00633ll9.jpg

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/9909/dsc00634af9.jpg

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/4956/dsc00635bw8.jpg

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/8264/dsc00636dn3.jpg

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/6269/dsc00637bc3.jpg

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/601/dsc00638ma5.jpg

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/4803/dsc00626ce7.jpg

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/6180/dsc00627el2.jpg


...για να σταματήσει επιτέλους αυτή η σκοπιανική προπαγάνδα!



Ιπποκράτης

[akritas]

Ιπποκράτη δεν θα σταματήσει ποτέ, είναι στο αίμα τους ο Σλαβομακεδονισμός...

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/2071/milososkimacedoniaskaipb1.jpg

[Ptolemy]

More evidence exposing Skopjan idiocies. Note also the use of the term "Minister - General Administrator of Macedonia"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/makchorodia1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/makchorodia2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/makchorodia3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/makchorodia4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/makchorodia5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/makchorodia6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/makchorodia7.jpg

[kostas68]

Notice the existence of a Governor of Macedonia in three different dates:
12-9-1921,28-9-1932 and 16-9-1947:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/govmac1.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/govmac2.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/govmac3.gif

[BzNzSBoomN]

Driving through downtown Thessaloniki one night i looked up and saw a hotel called the Makedonia Palace. I chuckled and asked my aunt 'when did they rename this place' lol . She said this hotel has always been called this as long as she can remember. Another uncle of mine confirmed this also saying when he came from Canada in the late 70's it was under this name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makedonia_Palace

[Ptolemy]

"Καταστατικόν Συνδέσμου Υπαλλήλων Σιδηροδρόμων Μακεδονίας", 1919

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/1919railwork.jpg

[kostas68]

Another proof that the Greeks used the regional name <Makedones> already since the middle 19th century.I've seen many Scopians claiming that <the rise of the Greek Macedonian identity is something recent,purely political and connected with the name dispute> .This book below dating from 1851 mentions the Greek regional names Macedonians (Μακεδόνες),Epirotans (Ηπειρώται) and Thessalians (Θεσσαλοί).It's the text of a theatrical work where the author calls those Greeks who were still under Ottoman rule to uprise against the Turks by the phrase: <Τo arms,Epirotans!Τo arms,Macedonians!Τo arms,Thessalians!In your sacred lands 3 centuries already passed,slaves and silent>.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/1.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/1cov.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?id=UoUTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA103&vq=%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B4%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B 5%CF%82&dq=%CE%97%CF%80%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%81%CF%8E%CF%84%CE%B 1%CE%B9+%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B4%CF%8C%CE%BD %CE%B5%CF%82&lr=&hl=el&source=gbs_search_s&cad=1