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View Full Version : Why Ancient Macedonians not present before the foundation of the kingdom ?


akritas
02-05-2006, 05:37 AM
According to Hesiod, the brothers Magnes and Macedon dwelt around Olympos and Pieria, logically in the valleys between the two ranges. Now, Aegae is on the most northeast slope of Pieria and on the southern approach to Mt. Vermion and the opening to the rich Thermaic Gulf. Both the the Perdikkas and Karanos traditions are consistent with the founding of the Macedonian Kingdom being related to the founding of Aegae and Isocrates ‘To Philip’, although not specific in this regard, does not contradict it.

Hesiod says that Makedon dwelt around Pieria. You have but to pick up a map and see that dwelling between Olympus and Pieria is a distance from Aegae. In the Perdikkas and Karanos (and for that matter the Pindus-Dorian-Macedonian) traditions, this is not contradictory with the Isocratic tale of Philip's ancestors.
The original Argeads, went into non-Hellenic ruled lands and conquered it.

Isocrates has that Philip's ancestor founded a kingdom among non-Hellenes, which is what the Brygians or any of the inhabitants around the new capital could have been prior to the Macedonian takeover. It is again the new land, and not the people that is referred to, especially when we consider that the ancestor did not conquer/found on his own, but needed an army/settlers, which could have been the Macedonians of Pieria (or the oft-wandering Pindus/Dorian/Macedonians if you will) or southern Greeks as per Justin and the Suda. It is the formal beginning of this state on previously 'non-Macedonian' and 'non-Hellenic' land as opposed to the loose collection of Macedonians and Magnesian natives between the great ranges, that is central tradition to the beginnings of the Macedonian kingdom and later empire.

This is re-inforced by Aristotle in The Politics:
"Kingship, as we have remarked, is organized on the same basis as aristocracy: merit-either individual virtue, or birth , or distinguished service, or all these together with a capacity for doing things.For it is just those who have done good servvice or have the capacity to do it, either for states or for foreign nations, that have been honoured with the position of king. Some, like Codrus, saved their people by war from slavery; others, like Cyrus, set them free or acquired territory or settled it, like the kings of the of Lacedaemonians, of the Molossians, and of the Macedonians."

In conclusion, the founding of the Macedonian Kingdom is centered on the founding/conquest of Aegae and the opening up of the Thermaic Gulf and the rest of Macedonia (the future state) thus the Macedonian state was NOT present before the foundation of the kingdom and thus not part of the Hellenic early history according to Thucydides, although the early Macedonian/Dorians populations may have been settled there in the migrations as per Herodotus in a loose and uncentralized collection. Therefore, there is nothing that contradicts the fact that the Macedonians were Greeks.

akritas
02-05-2006, 12:35 PM
The FYROMians as you know usually tell us that mythology is not history, so Mythology is a make believe world. How could you use this to establish proof that the ancient Macedonians were Greek ?

Carlos Parada give the best explain as about this.

There are four approaches to the myths (or 'gateways', since the myths are something we not only arrive at, but also a point of departure) are distinguished in :

The Artistic
The Religious
The Literary
The Analytical

The gateways are listed in order of historical appearance. The three first (Artistic, Religious, and Literary) may be said to express the myths. The fourth gateway (the Analytical) may be said to explain them.

Neither art, religion or literacy can separately give full expression to the myths; each of them is just a partial translation of the experiences of 'mythical man'. The meaning of the myths is fully expressed by an oral culture, the integral reality of which is aprehended by direct mental grasp, not through discursive reasoning. Accordingly, the analytical gateway cannot completely fulfil its explanatory purpose either.

Analysis may be said to proceed by loosing up the constituent parts of a whole, and hoping that the proper identification of the released basic elements will provide new insights. The disadvantage of this approach lies in that the disposition or psychology of the analytical mind could be assumed to be diametrically opposed to that prevailing in the times when the myths arose.

The 'analytical' approach includes all 'sciences' studying the myths (directly or indirectly), and 'gathering evidence'. The many disciplines under the analytical umbrella advance theories about the origin of the myths and/or may attempt to reveal their allegories, symbols, rational meanings, historical roots, religious and ritual connections, moral implications, magical hints, natural representations, structural patterns, psychological realities, etc. The analytical tasks are performed by an increasing number of disciplines (growing since the 6th century BC), some of which appear, as examples, listed in the table above.

The 'analytical' approach depends on the other three 'creative' approaches, since a certain knowledge of the myths is necessary in order to unveil their meaning and/or origin. This 'certain knowledge' is sometimes limited to one or few myths. Yet these could be enough for analysis to launch a theory or draw a conclusion.

It is inherent to the analytical approach the tendency to multiply its concepts and tools, giving birth to a very complex and diversified view. Thus the richness of detail found in its descriptions, along with the new problems they suggest, appear to conspire against an integral nearness to the object of study.

Heracledes Genealogy is a reality because in the Analytical approach we have also writers in order to compare theirs stories or myths. The best analytical approacher of this as about the Greek mythology was Hammond and now is Carlos Parada.

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Argos.html (http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Argos.html)
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/HERACLIDES.html (http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/HERACLIDES.html)

Hammond just find the right place of the Macedonian legacy as already describe.