Macedonians slavs acknowledged by George Soteriadis in 1918!

[Jordan Piperkata]

Please see for yourselves.
So let the pictures speak..........
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis0.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis1.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis2.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis3.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis4.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis5.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis6.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis7.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis8.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis9.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis10.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis11.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis12.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis13.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis14.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis15.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis16.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Soteriadis17.jpg


Please acknowledge your Macedonian slavs, please do the right thing!

[Makedonia22]

Please acknowledge the Greek Macedonians, the ones that have been pushed further south by slav invaders.

[Truth Bearer]

Good we do piperkata now do you aknowledge that you are a Macedonian Slav??Can we see you write that I piperkata am a Slavo Macedonian or Macedonian Slav can you please so we can all see???

[Jordan Piperkata]

Good we do piperkata now do you aknowledge that you are a Macedonian Slav??Can we see you write that I piperkata am a Slavo Macedonian or Macedonian Slav can you please so we can all see???

TB, you have a hard time to understand, my ethnicity is not at stake here but rather the Slavs of Greek Macedonia whom you consider Slavophone.
I am and will always be a Macedonian speaking a recognized Slavic language called Macedonian. This is the truth, TB. Wether you like it or not.

So what made Soteriadis acknowledge a Macedonian Slav population inside Greece separate from both Greeks and Bulgarians?????

Please answer that instead.

[Jordan Piperkata]

Can you post the population statistic tables for Macedonia? Why did you post only for Thrace or Asia Minor?

They are the ones I have access to, if you have the rest be my guest and post them.

[Xiotis]

So what made Soteriadis acknowledge a Macedonian Slav population inside Greece separate from both Greeks and Bulgarians?????

Please answer that instead.

Piperkata, read some history outside of your selective quotes. This came from a period when the Greeks and the Serbs made a political and strategic effort to categorize the slavs of Macedonia as a separate ethnic group from the Bulgarians. It was the Serbs that first strongly promoted this categorization and the Greeks eventually followed suit in order to diminish Bulgaria's claim to the region. In essence, from the contemporary Greek and Serb perspective, it was better to create an artificial ethnic category for the Slavs of macedonia than to acknowledge that they were Bulgarians. This policy, shared amongst the Serbs and the Greeks, was even documented by the 1914Carnegie report which states:

"Their [Serbs] facile generosity impelled them to share with the Greeks the population described on their maps as "Slav Macedonian" a euphemism designed to conceal the existence of Bulgarians in Macedonia"

H.N.R Wilkinson, in his Maps and Politics published in 1951, also describes this politically motivated categorization with the eventual effect:

"By 1918, Cvijic's [influence] in western Europe and the United States was enormous. Ultimately his concept of the Macedo-Slavs, repudiated by the Balkan committee experts in 1914, was almost universally accepted and became a feature of nearly all ethnographic maps of the 1914-1918 post-war years."

Wilkinson clearly states it was the Serbs that were amongst the first to give the slavs of Macedonia a distinct categorization which had an ETHNIC significance. Some Greek scholars, out of political motivation, also engaged in this categorization to diminish the then evil Bulgarians' claims to to the region!.

Face it Piperkata, the vast majority of your people had no sense of being "ethnic Macedonians" during this period. Those who were educated and did have some sort of ethnic/national sentiments usually self identified as Bulgarian. The notion that your people were a distinct ethnic group was only espoused by a small number of intellectuals at the time.

[Spartan]

Interesting that their are Macedonian Slavs just like there is a Greek Macedonia. Seems to me this can also be taken one step further and just say Macedonian Greeks and Macedonian Slavs.

Macedonian Slavs were nothing more than what Xiotis has posted, Bulgarians in Macedonia that the Serbs and then the Greeks labeled as Macedonian in order to eliminate any Bulgarian claims on the territory. It is simple Jordan, it is called POLITICS.

[Spartan]

Piperkata do you read everything you use as a source? If you have you need to pay attention to page 3 of the document! Please read it and tell us what it says.

"In the Daily Telegraph map to the east of the valley of the Struma all Macedonian Slavs, even if they belong to the Orthodox Greek Church(Patriarchate) are characterized without any distinction as Bulgarian, and indicated by the same colour as the Bulgarians of the Bulgarian Kingdom, while in Western and Central Macedonia the Macedonian Slavs are indicated by a special colour which includes those of the Patriarchate as well as those of the Exarchate(Bulgarian Church). It should be noted that in Macedonia language is such an inadequate criterion that even Bulgarian works describe Slav-speaking adherents of the Greek Church as Grecisants or Grecomanes.

Professor Soteriadis has indicated Macedonian Slavs of the Exarchate by the same colour in Eastern, as in the rest of Macedonia, while Macedonian of the Patriarchate, whatever their language, have been indicated by the same colour as Greeks."

Pay close attention to the bold lines Jordan. Macedonia Slavs in the eastern part of Macedonia are nothing more than Bulgarians and those in the western part are given a special color. So it seems that the Macedonian Slavs are considered Bulgarians except for those that are not part of Bulgaria. This shows indication towards what Xiotis posted about the Serbians.

So once again politics plays a key role!

Also what is a "Macedonian"? Notice it differentiates between Macedonian Slav and Macedonian. So it seems once again that a Macedonian is ANYONE who lives in the Region of Macedonia. If you speak a Slavic language and live in Macedonia you are a Macedonian Slav, but at the same time you are a Bulgarian.

[Spartan]

Now under the log of Population of Eastern Macedonia it does mention Macedonian Slavs, but at the same time it also has them categorized as Schismatics, Uniates, Protestants, etc. This is noted by the colon after the term Macedonian Slav:

So what would this mean? Maybe it means that the Slav speaking population of Eastern Macedonia are differentiated from the Bulgarians due to not being members of the recognized churches.

All I have to say is that source is quite confusing and from what I have read of the links you posted there is no such thing as an ETHNICITY called Macedonian Slav, just Bulgarians(Exarchist) of Macedonia or Slav Speaking(Patriarchist) differentiated from the Bulgarians due to their following the Patriarchate.

[Truth Bearer]

So Piperkata you are only a "macedonian" yet you speak the same language as the Slavo Macedonians,you share the same culture and are both Eastern Orthodox so I reckon that makes you the same ethnicity doesn't it?Unless of course you might be a Vlacho fyromian then in that case you can't be a slavomakedonijan now can you?Where abouts are u from in fyrom piperkata?

[Ehetlaios]

TB, you have a hard time to understand, my ethnicity is not at stake here but rather the Slavs of Greek Macedonia whom you consider Slavophone.
I am and will always be a Macedonian speaking a recognized Slavic language called Macedonian. This is the truth, TB. Wether you like it or not.

So what made Soteriadis acknowledge a Macedonian Slav population inside Greece separate from both Greeks and Bulgarians?????

Please answer that instead.

The problem starts because you people just don't seem to understand that "Macedonia" has always been a GEOGRAPHICAL term and not an ethnical.

You like believing (without proof) that it's an ethnical term and wherever you see it, you think it's referring to you.

What if "Macedonian Slavs" refers to the people of slavic heritage living in the region of Macedonia at that time?

Did you even think of that?

[Tsontos]

Jordan Soteriadis' map was EXPLICITLY based on Jovan Cvijic's map of 1903. Cvijic was a Serb ethnographer and one of the father of Macedonism, the Serbian based ideology of a "Macedonian Slav" language and ethnicity seperate to that of Bulgarian.

Another version of the same map exhibits Skopje and more than half of Northern FYROM as Serbian, so its not something to hang your hat on is it?

Find me ONE just ONE ethnographic map showing "Macedonian Slavs" before Cvijic's and I will send you $1000US over paypal

[Demetrius Doukas]

Jord. Piperkata,
first of all you cannot be Macedonian without beeng Greek, you are Greek Slav or you are pure Greek speaking Greek, you are ridiculous, the Thracians, the Corinthians or the Ahaians maybe are supposed to split into different nations and make independent countries?!!! Your country has not future, Hellenize yourself if you want to be a Macedonian so much, Ok! :nono::angry:

[Demetrius Doukas]

J. Piperkata,
if you so much insist on distorting history and create problems look at the real national minorities in your country - the Bulgarians and the Albanians for example. :):)........and decide whether you want to be Bulgarian or Greek you cannot be both, Ok, if you want to be a Macedonian learn Greek and be one I repeat just Hellenize yourself, Ok, its simple enough. :clap2::)

[Petros Houhoulis]

TB, you have a hard time to understand, my ethnicity is not at stake here but rather the Slavs of Greek Macedonia whom you consider Slavophone.
I am and will always be a Macedonian speaking a recognized Slavic language called Macedonian. This is the truth, TB. Wether you like it or not.

So what made Soteriadis acknowledge a Macedonian Slav population inside Greece separate from both Greeks and Bulgarians?????

Please answer that instead.

Jordan, either all of you shall be Slav Macedonians - because the Greek authors used this term for all of you, irrespectively of where you lived, or you shall be "Macedonians" out of Greece, but nothing Macedonian for all of those who are still in Greece or originate from Greek soil.

Can you comprehend that?

[Jordan Piperkata]

Jordan Soteriadis' map was EXPLICITLY based on Jovan Cvijic's map of 1903. Cvijic was a Serb ethnographer and one of the father of Macedonism, the Serbian based ideology of a "Macedonian Slav" language and ethnicity seperate to that of Bulgarian.

Another version of the same map exhibits Skopje and more than half of Northern FYROM as Serbian, so its not something to hang your hat on is it?

Find me ONE just ONE ethnographic map showing "Macedonian Slavs" before Cvijic's and I will send you $1000US over paypal

Dear Sir Voulgaroktonos, would you like to provied this map of Cvijic so we can compare the maps for ourselves and make our own conclusions.
Would you also be so kind to explaine WHY this Greek Professor would base his work on a Serb ethnographer?? Wasnt the Greek agenda of the time that the Macedonians were a non-people?

So there are two versions of Cvijic map, could you please provide both?


Why do we Macedonians always have to find sources for you Greeks, why pre-Cvijic? I have found this book, it is even written by a Greek Professor from the University of Athens and it is not good enough for you? Why would Soteriadis LIE?





Voulgaroktonos you have som explaining to do here if you want this story of your to hold water Sir.

[Jordan Piperkata]

So Piperkata you are only a "macedonian" yet you speak the same language as the Slavo Macedonians,you share the same culture and are both Eastern Orthodox so I reckon that makes you the same ethnicity doesn't it?Unless of course you might be a Vlacho fyromian then in that case you can't be a slavomakedonijan now can you?Where abouts are u from in fyrom piperkata?


TB, you must have had a hard time in school.......

I am from Pelagonija TB, the unredeemed Greek land......


It is good to see that you are able to connect the dots between my Macedonian ethnicity and that of the Macedonian slavs in Soteriadis map.



TB, you are asking me all these question, now it is your turn, from where in Greek Macedonia are your roots?

[Insomniac]

TB, you must have had a hard time in school.......

I am from Pelagonija TB, the unredeemed Greek land......


It is good to see that you are able to connect the dots between my Macedonian ethnicity and that of the Macedonian slavs in Soteriadis map.



TB, you are asking me all these question, now it is your turn, from where in Greek Macedonia are your roots?

I'm from Pelagonija too, Styberra Ergion and I'm Macedonian not Greek

[Jordan Piperkata]

I'm from Pelagonija too, Styberra Ergion and I'm Macedonian not Greek

Hey, nice to see! :clapping:

[akritas]

Macedonians what is the translation of the Pelagonia ?
Please Macedonians tell me ?:)

[akritas]

.....and Macedonians please tell me the story and the translation of Ergion (Ερίγων) river ?

please Macedonians ? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

JORDAN ? :)

[Insomniac]

.....and Macedonians please tell me the story and the translation of Ergion (Ερίγων) river ?

please Macedonians ? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

JORDAN ? :)

Ergion is Black River

[akritas]

Ergion is a Slavic word ?:dry:
if the answer is yes can you show me a source that explain the transliteration of the word please.

and what about Pelagonia ?:)

[Jordan Piperkata]

Ergion is a Slavic word ?:dry:
if the answer is yes can you show me a source that explain the transliteration of the word please.

and what about Pelagonia ?:)

I think you know what it means..... please get back to the issue of this thread.

Akritas what is your view on this?

[akritas]

I think you know what it means..... please get back to the issue of this thread.

Akritas what is your view on this?
My opinion is the same with Xiotis post.
Serbs and Greeks used this ethnological term in order to reduce the Bulgarian propaganda in Macedonia. Father of this term was Cvijic':)

[gmellos]

how do Skopians explain this map from 1922? PLEASE SHJOW US WHERE DOES IT SAY Macadonian???

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3f/Distribution_of_Races_on_the_Balkans_in_1922_Hammo nd.png


OR

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Distribution_of_Races_on_the_Balkans_in_1923.jpg

[Tsontos]

Dear Sir Voulgaroktonos, would you like to provied this map of Cvijic so we can compare the maps for ourselves and make our own conclusions.
Would you also be so kind to explaine WHY this Greek Professor would base his work on a Serb ethnographer?? Wasnt the Greek agenda of the time that the Macedonians were a non-people?

So there are two versions of Cvijic map, could you please provide both?


Why do we Macedonians always have to find sources for you Greeks, why pre-Cvijic? I have found this book, it is even written by a Greek Professor from the University of Athens and it is not good enough for you? Why would Soteriadis LIE?





Voulgaroktonos you have som explaining to do here if you want this story of your to hold water Sir.


Historians have long noted exactly when and from whom the term "Macedonian Slav" gained prominence:

Carnegie Endowment for International peace

REPORT OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION
To Inquire into the causes and Conduct OF THE BALKAN WARS, PUBLISHED BY THE ENDOWMENT WASHINGTON, D.C. 1914


CHAPTER IV
The War and the Nationalities

2. Servian Macedonia (a)

A comparison of the ethnographic and linguistic maps drawn up by Mes-sers Kantchev, Tsviyits (Cviyic) and Belits, with the new frontiers of the treaty of Bucharest reveals the gravity of the task undertaken by the Servians. They have not merely resumed possession of their ancient domain, the Sandjak of Novi-Bazar and Old Servia proper (Kosovo Pole and Metchia), despite the fact that this historic domain was strongly Albanian; they have not merely added thereto the tract described by patriotic Servian ethnographers as "Enlarged Old Servia" fan ancient geographical term which we have seen twice enlarged, once by Mr. Tsviyits and again by Mr. Belits) ; [See chapter I, p. 29.] over and above all this, their facile generosity impelled them to share with the Greeks the population described on their maps as "Slav-Macedonian"—a euphemism designed to conceal the existence of Bulgarians in Macedonia. And their acquisitions under the treaty of Bucharest went beyond their most extravagant pretensions. They took advantage of the Bulgarians' need to conclude peace at any price to deprive them of territories to the east of the Vardar, for example, Chtipe and Radoviche, where Bulgarian patriotism glowed most vividly and where the sacrifices accepted by Bulgarian patriots for the sake of freeing Macedonia, had always been exceptionally great. This was adding insult to injury.



As a matter of fact, if it was desired to make "Servian" Macedonia a reality instead of allowing it to remain what it was,—a national illusion in which aspirations were translated into accomplished facts,—it was necessary to understand, however little one might approve, the tactics of the government. If the opposition were to be logical they must renounce their national view. If they insisted upon that, they must admit that for the real attainment of their object of an ethnic "unification," everything remained to be done. To admit the end was to sanction the means, i. e., the extermination, or at least the elimination of alien elements, and above all of the Bulgarian element.





The name Macedo-Slav is italicized throughout because of its association with J, Cvijic. It is a better descriptive term than 'Macedonian' which is often used to refer to all nationals of the Jugoslav Republic of Macedonia, including Slav, Albanian and Turkish elements.

-Maps and Politics: A Review of the Ethnographic Cartography of Macedonia by H. R. Wilkinson, published in 1951.




Why do we Macedonians always have to find sources for you Greeks

If you want $1000 US you should:laugh:



Anyway

[Tsontos]

Sorry Xiotis I didnt realise you already posted the Carnegie mention of Cvijic and the Macedonian Slavs.

I guess I should have expected Piperkata to completely ignore your post :lol:

[Tsontos]

THE ORIGIN OF THE IDEA OF THE MACEDO-SLAVS

"The idea that Macedonia might have a future independent of the Bulgarians had already arisen as far back as 1876, when schemes for a "Macedonian Province" had been promoted at the conference of Constantinople, but the idea had not been associated then with any differences between Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians. AT THAT TIME THE BULGARIAN CHARACTER OF THE SLAVS OF MACEDONIA WENT UNCHALLENGED. IT WAS NOT UNTIL AFTER 1885, WHEN STRAINED RELATIONS BETWEEN BULGARIA AND SERBIA DEVELOPED, THAT THE SERBIAN CLAIMS IN MACEDONIA GAVE RISE TO THE SPECULATION THAT THE SLAVS IN MACEDONIA MIGHT BE DIFFERENT FROM THOSE OF BULGARIA. In 1887, P.D Draganov tentatively put forward this idea in Les Nouvelles Slaves (1887-8) N.S. Zaryanko, the Russian cartographer, by omitting to colour the Slavs of Macedonia in the second edition of his ethnographic map of the Balkans(1890), likewise implied that those Slavs might be either Serbs or Bulgarians. A powerful factor in promoting the separist tendencies had been the very interest which the Balkan nations had evinced in Macedonia. Numerous secret societies began to flourish after 1890. Some were Serbian inspired, others were inspired by Greeks and Bulgarians, but at least one-the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO)established in 1893, with its headquarters in Salonika, was indigenous to Macedonia. It aimed soley at achieving the political independence of Macedonia. Although the chief enemy was regarded to be the Turk, IMRO resented interference on the part of the Greeks, Serbians and even of the Bulgarians. It came into conflict with the purely Bulgarian Macedo Adrianople Organization. In the end IMRO DID BECOME MORE CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH THE BULGARIANS, but this only happened when it became increasingly clear that the danger to Macedonian independence came not from Turkey but from Serbia. The Bulgarians themselves were partly responsible for supporting IMRO and the idea of an independent Macedonia, because they believed that such a province would ultimately become part of Bulgaria,precisely in the same manner as Eastern Roumelia had become a part of Bulgaria....Unfortunately for the Bulgarians, CVIJIC [Serbian], SEIZED UPON THE IDEA OF THE "MACEDONIANS" AND GAVE TO WHAT HAD ORIGINALLY BEEN A POLITICAL TAG, AN ETHNIC SIGNIFICANCE."

-Wilkinson, H. R., Maps and Politics: An ethnographic Cartography of Macedonia, 1951

[Petros Houhoulis]

TB, you must have had a hard time in school.......

I am from Pelagonija TB, the unredeemed Greek land......


It is good to see that you are able to connect the dots between my Macedonian ethnicity and that of the Macedonian slavs in Soteriadis map.



TB, you are asking me all these question, now it is your turn, from where in Greek Macedonia are your roots?

Do you think that this is funny? The new Greek vice-minister for sports hails from Gevgeli, and he has stated some 26 years ago that he is from the NOT YET LIBERATED PART OF MACEDONIA.

What do you want Jordan? TO piss us off and to have Ioannidis share your country with Lubcho Georgievski and Ali Ahmeti? If you keep pushing for the sake of a thousand people in Greece, that's what you'll get: The total collapse of your own country.

You know me Jordan, I am from Agio Pnevma, Serres. I won't name any of the descendants of those who massacred the medieval Macedonians as "Macedonians". Don't even dream about it. For as long as you keep fighting us instead of the Albanians, you shall risk losing it all.

[Jordan Piperkata]

Dear Sir Voulgaroktonos, thank you for the information, would you now be so kind and provide the maps of Cvijic aswell, both editions of them.


TB, where is your answer for me?

Do you think that this is funny? The new Greek vice-minister for sports hails from Gevgeli, and he has stated some 26 years ago that he is from the NOT YET LIBERATED PART OF MACEDONIA.

What do you want Jordan? TO piss us off and to have Ioannidis share your country with Lubcho Georgievski and Ali Ahmeti? If you keep pushing for the sake of a thousand people in Greece, that's what you'll get: The total collapse of your own country.

You know me Jordan, I am from Agio Pnevma, Serres. I won't name any of the descendants of those who massacred the medieval Macedonians as "Macedonians". Don't even dream about it. For as long as you keep fighting us instead of the Albanians, you shall risk losing it all.

Thank you for letting us know that your irredentism towards the Republic Of Macedonia is alive and kicking........

[Tsontos]

The Cvijic map is in the Carnegie report under the title "Point de vue Serbe".


Can I ask why you kept craping on even after Xiotis' post destroyed your initial contention? Your not a troll are you?

[Insomniac]

Macedonians what is the translation of the Pelagonia ?
Please Macedonians tell me ?:)
Pelagonia is from Paionian king Pelagon.

[akritas]

Pelagonia is from Paionian king Pelagon.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Teukros]

Pelagonia is from Paionian king Pelagon.
and if it does so,the truth is that it doesn't what does ti mean in your bulgarian dialect?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Dear Sir Voulgaroktonos, thank you for the information, would you now be so kind and provide the maps of Cvijic aswell, both editions of them.


TB, where is your answer for me?



Thank you for letting us know that your irredentism towards the Republic Of Macedonia is alive and kicking........

Jordan, I have no roots in your country. Ioannidis has, he is from Gevgeli. He has stated some 26 years earlier of his irredentism. I have no knowledge whether he maintains it, but he has equal claims with those folks of yours that are the backbone of your diaspora.

Try NOT to have Ioannidis REMEMBER his past. If you do so, it shall be YOUR FAULT.

That's what I am telling you. Personally, I am no irredentist (and you know it) but I cannot fail but notice that some people from our side have irredentist claims because, hell, they were kicked out of their homes once.

Try to get some reason into your brain and close the chapter, before the Albanians grow too much strong for your own sake...