FYROM: an essay

[admin]

MACEDONIA? What's in a Name - A Rose by Any Other Name, Is It Still A Rose?

Is a rose by any other name still a rose? What if we started calling the "rose" an "onion"? If you had both next to each other, could you point to each and call each an onion? Would one be a real onion and the other a fake onion? Would both smell the same, look the same, have the same texture, color, and all other qualities? If you asked someone for an onion what would he give you? Would your sweetheart appreciate the dozen onions that you sent her for Valentine's Day?
Now, what happens if one area of our world started calling itself with the same name as a neighboring area? What if this area also took the identity and history of its neighbors? What if this first area becomes a country? Can it now decide to call itself with the same name as its neighbor and the rest of the world recognizes it so? The Massachusetts Bay Colony consisted of the area of the northern New England states and also encompassed part of what today is the Canadian province of Quebec. Throughout the years, many Quebec inhabitants have migrated from Quebec to the New England states. If Quebec broke away from Canada and became an independent country, would it be suitable to change its name to "New England"? Would it bother anyone if this "New England" hoisted a new flag with New Hampshire's Old Man of the Mountain in the middle of it, printed new currency picturing Bunker Hill on it, redrew their maps such that their territory is shown going all the way down to Boston and beyond, and revised their history books to indicate the colonial New England history as their own. Maybe we can call this new country "New New England" and we can rename the Northeastern part of the United States "Old New England". Will that make it clear to everybody?
We read the above hypothetical situation and think that it is so ridiculous that it could never happen. But, that is exactly what is happening today right before our eyes between The FYROM, former Yugoslavia's southern republic, and Macedonia, one of Greece's northern provinces. Before 1944 the area that later comprised of the former Yugoslavia's southern republic was not called Macedonia but was called Vardarska Banovina (Province -of the river- Vardar). It was in 1944 that (Joseph Broz) Marshal Tito, the Communist dictator ruling Yugoslavia at that time, created Yugoslavia's southern republic and called it "Socialist Republic of Macedonia". However, "Macedonia" was already the name of one of Greece's northern provinces. In ancient times, the land that Macedonia covered included this northern province of Greece, a small part of Bulgaria, a small part of Albania, and a small part of the region that Tito named the Socialist Republic of Macedonia. It is pertinent to note that Tito’s Socialist Republic of Macedonia consisted of not only a small part of ancient Macedonia but also a far larger part from Slavic Yugoslavia. There is no doubt that creating this Republic in the southern region in Yugoslavia and including "Macedonia" in its name was deliberate with the main intention of laying claim to the region of ancient Macedonia of the northern province of Greece. Particularly, what Tito and his Communist allies wanted was the city of Thessaloniki with its lucrative warm water port.
After 1944 a deliberate and systematic campaign was initiated for Yugoslavia's southern republic to take over the history of ancient Macedonia. “Scholars� from the “People’s Republic of Macedonia� were commissioned to re-write their history books to include the ancient Macedonian History according to the wishes of the League of Communists of communist Yugoslavia, accompanied by perverted maps showing their "Macedonia" going all the way down to the northern half of Mount Olympus. Also, “linguists� led by Blagoj Konev, a.k.a. Blaže Koneski, were appointed to create the alphabet for and refine the "newly discovered" Macedonian language, which, of course, was made to sound as if it were the “natural development� of the ancient Macedonian language. Through their control of mass media and education, the government of “People’s Republic of Macedonia� then introduced this language and claimed that it is the language that was spoken by the ancient Macedonians. However, this language is grammatically nearly identical to Bulgarian and, due to continuous government interventions, its vocabulary tends to include more Serbo-Croatian words that have replaced the Bulgarian words. They clearly overlooked the unquestionable fact that the inhabitants of ancient Macedonia were Greeks and spoke the Greek language. Numerous excavations in all of the ancient Macedonia area have consistently unearthed relics clearly with Greek writings, and depictions of rulers clearly designated with Greek names.
In September of 1991 this republic declared independence from Yugoslavia and it named itself "Republic of Macedonia" as a new independent country. They designed a new flag with the Sun of Vergina at its center and printed new currency with the White Tower of Thessaloniki, symbols clearly from the northern province of Greece. Because of these actions and also because of certain articles in their constitution which implied that the their country had territorial rights to all of the ancient Macedonian area, Greece imposed a trade embargo and prevented any trade commerce through Greece's northern border. Greece reluctantly lifted the trade embargo when The FYROM redesigned and accepted a new flag, stopped the issuance of the new currency with the depiction of the White Tower of Thessaloniki, and passed amended articles to their constitution implying that they have no territorial rights outside their present boundaries. Greece, however, continued to object to their use of the name Macedonia. Because of this objection, the United Nations accepted this nation as a new member with the temporary name of "The Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia (The FYROM)" (UN Resolutions #817 of April 7 and #845 of June 18 of 1993) until a permanent solution to the name is found. To this date no solution has been found and the UN deadline of September 13, 2002 has passed by with the two countries only agreeing to extend discussions on this matter for one more year.

http://www.panmacedonian.info/namenew_files/image001.jpg

Currency with the White Tower of Thessaloniki which was intended for circulation but was withheld because of objections from Greece. The word in small print under the depiction of the city is "СОЛУН" --"THESSALONIKI"



http://www.panmacedonian.info/namenew_files/image006.jpg http://www.panmacedonian.info/namenew_files/image008.jpg http://www.panmacedonian.info/namenew_files/image004.jpg

The Vergina Sun Original 1991 FYROM Flag Current FYROM Flag
from the Tomb of Philip
excavated in Greece in 1978

The deliberate and systematic campaign of distortion, stealing and absorption of the history and ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians is ongoing today with full and untiring strength. Although officially this country is known as The FYROM, through a vigorous campaign they have managed to contrive the world to call it Macedonia in common day usage. The Internet and mass-communication has made it easy for them to do this and they have used these tools to create a flood of misinformation. One such example that clearly shows their devious actions is the Web site: http://faq.macedonia.org/. Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth". In some way this provides an explanation as to why the inhabitants of The FYROM are so adamant about keeping the name Macedonia. Now, fifty-eight years after the start of the campaign of distortion, stealing and absorption of the GREEK history and ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, we find that the inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly the children of 1944 and those that were born afterwards and who grew up with these untruths. To them these have become facts. But, must this go on any longer? Isn't it time to set the record straight?
What's in a Name? - In a name you have identity, history, ancestry, culture, ethnicity, belonging, cohesiveness, texture, color, and many other qualities. And, it is in the Macedonian names, which those in The FYROM now want to claim as their own, where one of the greatest proofs of the GREEKNESS of Macedonia lies. Here are some of countless examples:
Macedonian = GREEK for "the tall one"
Amyntas (father of Philip) = GREEK for "defender"
Philippos (Philip) = GREEK for "one who loves the horse"
Alexandros (Alexander) = GREEK for "the protector of man"
Bucephalus (Alexander's beloved horse with a large head)= GREEK for "ox-like head "
Aristotle (Alexander's teacher) = GREEK for "the best and perfect one"
Thessaloniki = GREEK for "victory over the Thessalians"

Countless historians and other scholars have written extensively about the Greekness of Macedonia. Henry Morgenthau served in Constantinople as US Ambassador (1913-16), served as Vice President of the Relief Committee for the Middle East (1919-21). He was appointed by the League of Nations and served as President of the Greek Refugee Settlement Committee (1923-28) and is known as a most reliable source of historical facts. In 1929 (please note that this was 15 years before the start of the campaign of distortion, stealing and absorption of the Greek history and ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians by Tito’s propagandists) Henry Morgenthau published his book “I was sent to Athens�, in which he writes:
"Soon after Athens had reached the height of its glory under Pericles in the Fifth Century, B. C., and had started on its decline, the rise of Macedon under Philip carried Greek influence into new regions. The glory of Athens had been based upon sea power, but the conquests of Macedon were the work of land armies— Philip invented the invincible phalanx. Upon Philip's death his son, Alexander the Great, set forth to conquer the whole of the then known world, and as that world in his day lay to the east, his marches were in that direction. In a few years he had overrun the fertile plains and opulent cities of Asia Minor, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Persia, and had carried his conquests to the gates of Delhi. In all the cities in the intervening countries he left large garrisons of Greek soldiers. In many of these countries he founded flourishing new cities. In every place his soldiers were followed by large colonies of Greek civilians. The result was that the whole of western Asia, and of what we call the Near East, including Asia Minor Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Babylonia, Mesopotamia, Persia, and northwestern India, was saturated with the Greek influence and with Greek colonies."
"The imagination of these conquered peoples was dazzled by the introduction of Greek art, literature, philosophy, and public works. Though the successors of Alexander were unable to maintain the political control of the lands he conquered, and though successive waves of Roman, Arabian, and Tartar conquests swept over these lands in succeeding centuries, none of the later conquerors has been able wholly to eradicate the influence of Greek culture, nor to exterminate that element of population which was of Greek blood."
"….The Greek War of Independence, which came to a successful conclusion in 1832, affected less than one half of the Greeks in the Turkish Empire. It did not bring freedom to the Greeks of Macedonia and Thrace, of Crete and the Aegean Islands, nor to the more than two million Greeks in Asia Minor and Constantinople."

http://www.panmacedonian.info/namenew_files/image010.gif
http://www.panmacedonian.info/namenew_files/image012.gif

If the entire region of The FYROM were from ancient Macedonia they would have some legitimate claim for The FYROM to be called Macedonia. But it is not. Over 90% of the ancient Macedonian area is outside of The FYROM's borders and less than 1/5 of its own land within its borders is from the ancient Macedonian area. The FYROM is clearly mostly a Slavic region.
If a vast majority of the inhabitants in The FYROM were Greeks, they would have some legitimate claim to have this country named Macedonia. But they are not. The Greek inhabitants in The FYROM are a small minority.
So where does their claim for The FYROM to be called Macedonia in any form comes from? There is no valid reason, which is based on truth for this country to have any form of a name that contains "Macedonia" in it.
Presently, internal strife between the various minorities within The FYROM, has placed the country on the verge of collapse. Albania (since about 1/4 of The FYROM territory is ethnically Albanian) and Bulgaria are anxiously waiting on the sidelines for this to happen to quickly rush in and grab a piece of it. On the other hand, Greece maintains a position of a staunch supporter for the survival of this country. Isn't it ironic that The FYROM continues to slap Greece, its one and only friend of the region, in the face with the "Macedonian Name Issue"?
I would think, though, that changing their name back to "VARDARSKA" such as "VARDARSKA REPUBLIKA " or "REPUBLIKA VARDAR" would serve as a unifying force for the various factions within its borders, would eliminate the name controversy with its neighbors, and would put them on the road to their proper identity, ethnicity, heritage and most of all dignity.

Bill Gatzoulis
With historical assistance from Marcus Templar

[admin]

VARDARSKO VOJVODA (and that is what it should be called) Check out the Blue Stamp.... No mention at all about Macedonia which is Greek and should stay that way.... postcard from "FYROM" date:1911...

http://tinypic.com/hwfynb.jpg

[rtgs]

VARDARSKO VOJVODA (and that is what it should be called) Check out the Blue Stamp.... No mention at all about Macedonia which is Greek and should stay that way.... postcard from "FYROM" date:1911...

http://tinypic.com/hwfynb.jpg

ha ha ha
on cyrilic: xa xa xa
with signs: :-) :-) :-)

What it says on the stamp is that it was mailed from "Enidze Vardarsko", menaing "Enidze on the Vardar" (like Frankfurt am Main). I think that you have renaimed Enidze Vardarsko to Gianntsa.

insult deleted This is just another proof that there were Macedonians in South Macedonia ! ! ! Like Voivoda Apostol, from Enidze Vardarsko.
And that there were Macedonian names for towns in "norther greece", different from your inventions that you use now.



It is very common some towns to have attached the name of the river that passes by to its name. The river is Vardar, and the town is named Enidze Vardarsko.

Read the whole stamp, not only what you like....


BUT WAIT - you "greeks" are famous for twisting history and playing with words. I understand why you see only the "vardarsko" part of the name of the town, that was renamed to Giannitsa (and probably few settlers came from asia in 1920 over there, so now there are some greeks there for real).


Just to mention that on the stapms in Macedonia, we put only the name of the town, not the conutry. So if I mail you know, it will say Skopje (only Skopje), but that doesn't mean that I am not from Macedonia, as it doesn't mean that voivoda Apostol was not from Macedonia.

[Petros Houhoulis]

ha ha ha
on cyrilic: xa xa xa
with signs: :-) :-) :-)

What it says on the stamp is that it was mailed from "Enidze Vardarsko", menaing "Enidze on the Vardar" (like Frankfurt am Main). I think that you have renaimed Enidze Vardarsko to Gianntsa.

insult deleted This is just another proof that there were *********** in Macedonia ! ! ! Like Voivoda Apostol, from Enidze Vardarsko.
And that there were ********** names for towns in "norther greece", different from your inventions that you use now.

It is very common some towns to have attached the name of the river that passes by to its name. The river is Vardar, and the town is named Enidze Vardarsko.

Read the whole stamp, not only what you like....


BUT WAIT - you "greeks" are famous for twisting history and playing with words. I understand why you see only the "vardarsko" part of the name of the town, that was renamed to Giannitsa (and probably few settlers came from asia in 1920 over there, so now there are some greeks there for real).


Just to mention that on the stapms in *********, we put only the name of the town, not the conutry. So if I mail you know, it will say Skopje (only Skopje), but that doesn't mean that I am not from *********, as it doesn't mean that voivoda Apostol was not from *********.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_serbs_1914.jpg

Can you take a look upon this map from 1914 and tell me what does KALKANDELEN, USKUB, KOEPRULU, MONASTIR and CAREVO SELO mean to you?

Just to help you, the modern names are:

KALKANDELEN, SKOPJE, VELES, BITOLA and DELCEVO.

Of course you still believe that Kalkandelen is actually named Tetovo, but the Albanian mayor of the city thinks otherwise. Who knows, in a few decades, maybe we'll hear of USKUB again...

[kostas68]

ha ha ha
on cyrilic: xa xa xa
with signs: :-) :-) :-)

What it says on the stamp is that it was mailed from "Enidze Vardarsko", menaing "Enidze on the Vardar" (like Frankfurt am Main). I think that you have renaimed Enidze Vardarsko to Gianntsa.

insult deleted This is just another proof that there were Macedonians in South Macedonia ! ! ! Like Voivoda Apostol, from Enidze Vardarsko.
And that there were Macedonian names for towns in "norther greece", different from your inventions that you use now.



It is very common some towns to have attached the name of the river that passes by to its name. The river is Vardar, and the town is named Enidze Vardarsko.

Read the whole stamp, not only what you like....


BUT WAIT - you "greeks" are famous for twisting history and playing with words. I understand why you see only the "vardarsko" part of the name of the town, that was renamed to Giannitsa (and probably few settlers came from asia in 1920 over there, so now there are some greeks there for real).


Just to mention that on the stapms in Macedonia, we put only the name of the town, not the conutry. So if I mail you know, it will say Skopje (only Skopje), but that doesn't mean that I am not from Macedonia, as it doesn't mean that voivoda Apostol was not from Macedonia.

Well well well!What have we here?The well known Bulgarian komitadji-voevoda Apostol Petkov is claimed as ethnic <Macedonian> by our friend rtgs?Very interesting!Unfortunately for you,rtgs,i am always <plenty of facts>,you know,these damned facts that prove that Apostol Petkov was and considered himself a Bulgarian:
18)<Confessions of a Macedonian bandit> by Albert Sonnichsen
In this book we will see what was really the ethnicity of those <Macedonian> bandits and how they used the term <Macedonian>.The author was an American journalist who lived for some months(Feb.-Nov. 1906) among a band of Bulgarian comitadjis who were fighting against the Greek bands in Macedonia,in the area of today's prefectures of Emathia and Pella.They were hidden in the famous swamp of Yiannitsa which doesn't exist today.The leader of those Bulgarians was Apostol Petkov.In the excerpts below,we read that the leaders of the commitadjis,Apostol Petkov and Luka planed to burn the Greek village Nisi,because the inhabitants helped the Greek Makedonomachi.The American journalist tries to avert him,saying that this act would effect negatively against them the European public opinion by the phrase: <The good opinion of Europe will be lost.They will say all are alike:Turks,Greeks and Bulgars.> He convinces him temporarily,but they decide later definitely to burn the Greek village.While they were traveling in their boats,they were possesed of a nervous kind of hilarity,making humorous refferences to the <Macedonian navy> and the admirals Apostol and Luka.In several other occassions the same persons are called interchangeably <Macedonians> and <Bulgarians>.Thus,it's more than obvious that these people consider themselves ethnic Bulgarians whereas the term <Macedonian> was used only by its regional meaning.The worth of this testimony is bigger if we bethink that it's written not by an occassional observer who came in Macedonia for 10-15 days,but from someone who lived for 9 months amongst these Bulgaromacedonians and even fought on their side against their enemies.

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/443/bulgbandcovdy1.gif

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/293/bulgbandtelog7.gif

Notice in the pages 26-29 Apostol Petkov's connections to Bulgaria:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/bulgband26.gif

Ups,our friend Apostol Petkov!
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/bulgband27.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/bulgband28.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/bulgband29.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/bulgband31.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/bulgband32.gif

Dame Gruev,the famous <Macedonian> hero,a pure Bulgarian:
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6761/bulgband33yp9.gif

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5908/bulgband45vt7.gif

Why sould Apostol Petkov care about Europe's oppinion for the Bulgarians?;)
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9318/bulgband46sr1.gif

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4367/bulgband47ev7.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/bulgband61.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/bulgband104.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/bulgband121.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/bulgband203.gif

[rtgs]

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_serbs_1914.jpg


xa xa xa - there is veles in brackets, and skopje too, and others... that is just 2 names on 2 languages for the same city.

I also see some very light green for people in "the only macedonia", i.e. the one which is now part of greece. And I see differentiation with Bulgarians?

Furhther more, I bet this map is from around 1920 when greeks occupied macedonia and started to settle asiatic christians in macedonia. If you find a map 100 years older (but real map, not the ones with artificial lakes from 1970s, then rewritten to look like old), everything in macedonia will be light green.


this map, as much as it was probably made in greek favour (because we know about yourpropaganda machine which is older then greece), still shows that macedonians were majority in macedonia.

[DISCLAIMER: I do not claim that you should return that part of macedonia in the macedonian state. Keep your macedonia. BUT let us live, and let YOURSELF live; i don't like borders, made to divide people, made to stop them living and to start paying taxes]


btw - where is the most poorest community in Greece?




Can you take a look upon this map from 1914 and tell me what does KALKANDELEN, USKUB, KOEPRULU, MONASTIR and CAREVO SELO mean to you?

please tell me what does it mean "carevo selo" on turkish?
:-) :-) :-)

On macedonian Carevo selo means "Village of the Car" (Car is macedonian for Cezar, i.e. the head of the country)



Who knows, in a few decades, maybe we'll hear of USKUB again...

:-)

Skopje is even TODAY USKUB. And ShKUP. And SKOPJE. We do not fake history. We accept it and GO FORWARE (if you were not so stubborn to drag us down, we were going to be switzerland by now, and you weregoing to be much better, too)

Yes, you may be Turk, and you may write in your personal ID card: USKUB.
We are not killing people because they use their names for the cities. On the contrary, we are FREE country, and we help people to express themselfs.
You may call it even Skopia, if you want.

But what about the other side:
If I am Macedonian, citizen of "Republic of Greece" who is born and lives in Voden, could i put "Voden" as a living town in the <greek> passport? Or I must use artificial name of Edessa? Look at your map, what is the name for Voden?

[rtgs]

kostas - i see that you are full of spam. please do not spam me, to read all that greek propaganda, which you are copy-pasting everywhere (maybe you are bot? or you are paid per copy-past by the greek government). Please stop pasting that big messages, and tell me one by one.

I don't see my "yellow card" in this forum, so probably you asked for that?
I hope you can stand it and you will not stop me from posting on this site after I tell you about your propaganda flows, because it will be in your best interest (you may think of even better propaganda, and be promoted to strategos-bot).

But even if you block me, that will just show about your type of talking, similar to your type of talking about the problems you have with our name in the UN, where you are avoiding Nimitz as a the Devil that runs away from Cross (stavros).

whatever, i am here - please choose your best "fact" and hit me. Not all that spam, just the best one that shows that macedonians (kind like me) are not macedonians, and the whole world was full of greeks and only greeks, everywhere greeks... and the earth is flat... and the king is alive.... and the greek space ship full of greeks that landed in area 51.... or what ever is your theory

But please - Short, not more then 1 or 2 screens. I can not go up and down, all the time....

[rtgs]

While i am waiting on your strongest "FACT", i will start an explanation of what i am thinking not to waste time to persuade me on that.

1. Be carefull - i want to think. Not to REPEAT what somebody had said 10 or 100 or 1000 years ago. They were probably writing half truths, depending on the side they took, depending how they were instructed, depending how they were lied by the locals, or the side they were paid by. So I want to think, and IN COLOR, not BLACK and WHITE.

I may put some parralels to current time, and refresh you about CNN stances on Weapons of mass distruction in Iraq, your (NATO) bombing of "yugoslavia" in 1999, ...
They were FULL of lies I saw with my EYES on the field.
Also I see your newspapers and they blindness about CURRENT situation in Macedonia, and PERMANENTLY denaying that Macedonians exist, and that all are greeks, when (AT LEAST) some are not.


I do not inisist on "my side" (there are many other newspaper articles from 1890s and 1900s who clearly distinguish Macedonians from Greeks (did you read the pdf i have posted with a 1902 NY times article: Greek betrayed Macedonians?), but i will skip them for now)

2. Yes, "Bulgarians" has similar habits to macedonians. I do not deny it. (serbs, and albanians, and "greeks", too, have similar habits, but less and less and less).
Don't try to persuade me about that. I know that Bulgarians are similar to Macedonians.

However, I doubt if <Bulgarians> ARE Bulgarians? (i will use marking for nations of today with this signs < >, to distinguish them from the medieval or ancient times) On the contrary I claim that <bulgarians> are in most part MACEDONIANS, and from there it is the similarity.

There were changes, the last changes from 1920s to 1940s when many macedonians from Drama, kavala, seres were expelled/escaped to bulgaria.
But there are even deeper questions - unanswered.

Why I think that <Bulgarians> are more Macedonian then Bulgarian? You will know if you answer the following question:
That Bulgarians, from around 5th century - did they speak our (macedonian) languge or some other? why are then <bulgarians> speaking (modified) macedonian?

ON THE OTHER SIDE, <Macedonians> and <Bulgarians> had 200 years of very different positions and culture, so now - they are different CULTURALLY.

I may go on. But please answer in short if you agree to this, to continue.

[Petros Houhoulis]

xa xa xa - there is veles in brackets, and skopje too, and others... that is just 2 names on 2 languages for the same city.



No, these were not just ANY names. We are talking about the Ottoman empire here, and the official names were the TURKISH ones. Can you comprehend that the map is titled "the Serbs' point of view" and the Serbian names had been added next to the official TURKISH names?




I also see some very light green for people in "the only macedonia", i.e. the one which is now part of greece. And I see differentiation with Bulgarians?



It was the Serbian point of view. What do you think they would show?




Furhther more, I bet this map is from around 1920 when greeks occupied macedonia and started to settle asiatic christians in macedonia. If you find a map 100 years older (but real map, not the ones with artificial lakes from 1970s, then rewritten to look like old), everything in macedonia will be light green.



If you were clever enough you would find the year, it is from 1914 and it was presented to the Carnegie committee. The oldest maps show all of the population as Greek (Patriarchists, no Exarchate = Bulgaria is Greek. Ha!)



this map, as much as it was probably made in greek favour (because we know about yourpropaganda machine which is older then greece), still shows that macedonians were majority in macedonia.



It is a SERBIAN map and the light Green is meant for SERBS.



[DISCLAIMER: I do not claim that you should return that part of macedonia in the macedonian state. Keep your macedonia. BUT let us live, and let YOURSELF live; i don't like borders, made to divide people, made to stop them living and to start paying taxes]



You should have borders with Turkey or Iraq or Afghanistan, instead of Greece, and then I would like to see what would be your opinion about the borders in general.



btw - where is the most poorest community in Greece?



Probably in Epirus.



please tell me what does it mean "carevo selo" on turkish?
:-) :-) :-)



The same that "Manastir" or "Selanic" or "Istanbul" or "Izmir" or "Isparta" means in Turkish: NOTHING. The Turks just adjusted the previous names in their own language, but the names themselves have no meaning in Turkish, just as "Postol" has no meaning in your language because it derives from the Greek "Agioi Apostoloi".



On macedonian Carevo selo means "Village of the Car" (Car is macedonian for Cezar, i.e. the head of the country)



I know that, my granpa suffered there for 3 1/2 years, he almost died because he was a "durduvak" (forced labor slave)



:-)

Skopje is even TODAY USKUB. And ShKUP. And SKOPJE. We do not fake history. We accept it and GO FORWARE (if you were not so stubborn to drag us down, we were going to be switzerland by now, and you weregoing to be much better, too)



We saw what sort of Switzerland was Yugoslavia. We know that if the Albanians didn't rebel, you should still deny them their democratic rights (one vote for every two Albanians because you conveniently "forgot" to update the census eh?)



Yes, you may be Turk, and you may write in your personal ID card: USKUB.
We are not killing people because they use their names for the cities. On the contrary, we are FREE country, and we help people to express themselfs.
You may call it even Skopia, if you want.



When was the last time that we killed someone for that reason? Did you confuse us with the Turks? They are the ones who still kill Armenians, Kurds, Catholic missionaries e.t.c.



But what about the other side:
If I am Macedonian, citizen of "Republic of Greece" who is born and lives in Voden, could i put "Voden" as a living town in the <greek> passport? Or I must use artificial name of Edessa? Look at your map, what is the name for Voden?

The passport should convey accurate information. You cannot possibly use different passwords showing the same place with different names, because the officials might get confused if they see such unusual data.

Either you like it or not, all official papers should have one name for everything. Today all maps, all encyclopaedias, all airport tables show what we have used to call "Constantinople" as "Istanbul". Back in 1920, the name of the city was still Constantinople, you know, and we have noticed that the Turks changed it. If you ever go to any of our airports though, the name of the city is Istanbul, because this is how everybody knows it. We still use Constantinople, but only in either Greek text or in historical references, not in official papers, nor we ever demanded that the puny Greek minority in the city should have the right to use the name "Constantinople" in their passports. Why don't we? Because it does not change anything, and because we have to shout to Turkey for real human rights violations, like extra-judicial killings, "dissapearances" even from police stations that never get resolved, torture, the kind of stuff that makes you chill, not the kind of crap that you have been feeding us for decades...

[Petros Houhoulis]

"... your (NATO) bombing of "yugoslavia" in 1999, ..."



Whose NATO bombing of "yugoslavia" in 1999?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_of_the_Federal_Republic_of_Yugos lavia#Criticism_of_the_case_for_war

"On April 29, 1999, Yugoslavia filed a complaint at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) at The Hague against ten NATO member countries (Belgium, Germany, France, Great Britain, Italy, Canada, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, and the U.S.). The Court did not decide upon the case because it ruled that Yugoslavia was not a member of the UN during the war."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia#Internati onal_acceptance_of_NATO_actions

"Italy, itself a NATO member, was reluctant to agree to the NATO operations due to the tens of thousands of refugees that conflict would bring to Italy, and due to the large number of financial investments Italy holds in Kosovo. Greece was opposed, but had to agree to it under pressure of other members. The war has caused wide anti-US sentiment in the Greek population, who are historical friends of the Serbs. Other NATO members were reluctant too, and especially uncomfortable were new members, Poland, Hungary and Czech Republic. Other countries which condemned the bombing were Russia, China, Iraq, Syria, Libya and Algeria. Iran also condemned the bombing by calling the campaign 'illegal'."

Maybe I should remind you that the bombing of Serbia was nothing compared to the occupation in Iraq where your country still has troops - and Greece never had. The bombing of Serbia had ~2.500 dead civilians, add another 200 dead soldiers and you end up with less than 3.000 dead. The war in Iraq has (so far) much more carnage, more than 1 million dead civilians and troops of all sides, 2 million internally displaced refugees, 1,9 million refugees out of Iraq, and you have taken the responsibility (in the side of the U.S.A.) for all this carnage.



That Bulgarians, from around 5th century - did they speak our (macedonian) languge or some other? why are then <bulgarians> speaking (modified) macedonian?



Nope, the name of that language was Old church Slavonic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#Nomenclature

"Nomenclature
The original name of the language in the Old Church Slavonic texts was simply Slavic (словѣньскыи ѩзыкъ, slověnĭskyj językŭ),[17] derived from the word for Slavs (словѣне, slověne), the self-designation of the compilers of the texts. This name is preserved in the modern names of the Slovak and Slovene languages. The language is sometimes called Old Slavic, which may be confused with the distinct Proto-Slavic language. The commonly accepted terms in modern English-language Slavic studies are Old Church Slavonic and Old Church Slavic.

Old Bulgarian (ѩӡыкъ блъгарьскъ) is also widely used[18] and is the only designation used by Bulgarian linguistics, as it corresponds to what they consider to be the earliest form of written Bulgarian, followed by Middle Bulgarian (Church Slavonic language) and New Bulgarian (the modern Bulgarian language). The designation Old Bulgarian (German: Altbulgarisch) was introduced in the 19th century by August Schleicher, Martin Hattala and Leopold Geitler who noted the similarities between the first literary Slavic works and the modern Bulgarian language. For similar reasons Russian linguist Aleksandr Vostokov used the term Slav-Bulgarian.

Similarly, Old Macedonian is used occasionally in Western scholarship[19][20][21] for many of the same reasons, but also in a geographical sense.


[edit] Modern Slavic nomenclature
Here are some of the names used by speakers of modern Slavic languages:

Belarusian: старажытнаславянская мова (staražytnasłavianskaja mova), ‘Old Slavic’
Bosnian: staro (crkveno) slavenski, ‘Old (Church) Slavic’
Bulgarian: старобългарски (starobălgarski), ‘Old Bulgarian’
Czech: staroslověnština, ‘Old Slavic’
Croatian: staro (crkveno) slavenski, ‘Old (Church) Slavic’
Macedonian: старомакедонски (staromakedonski), ‘Old Macedonian’
Polish: staro-cerkiewno-słowiański, ‘Old Church Slavic’
Russian: старославянский язык (staroslavjánskij jazýk), ‘Old Slavic’
Serbian: старо (црквено) словенски (staro(crkveno)slovenski), ‘Old (Church) Slavic’
Slovak: (staro) slovienčina, ‘(Old) Slavic’
Slovene: stara cerkvena slovanščina, ‘Old Church Slavic’
Ukrainian: старослов’янська мова (staroslovjans'ka mova), ‘Old Slavic’"

[kostas68]

kostas - i see that you are full of spam. please do not spam me, to read all that greek propaganda,
<Greek propaganda>???Did you notice the names of the authors of all the books i have quoted?Did you find even one single Greek name?Is that all you have to answer?I showed you the testimonies of 15-16 persons who visited the Balkans in 16th,19th and early 20th century and the books of 20 modern historians and all of them agree on this:There was never any separated <Macedonian> ethnicity till 1870.The construction of this new-invented ethnicity started after this date and the reasons for this are very well explained.But i think you never bothered yourself to read what i quoted.You know only to claim: <I am Macedonian because my grandfather who lived 98 years (it's really very impressive how all of your grandfathers were so long-lived,you can break the global record of longevity) told me this>.But when you have to confront reality,you avoid to do it like the ostrichs who hide their head in the sand.You're really pitifull!
which you are copy-pasting everywhere
That proves that you never paid attention to what i quoted,because you would notice that most of these quotes were originally posted by me in other threads and the rest by other members of the forum.And off course we didn't copied nothing,we searched and found all this evidence ourselves.So make your research and find your evidence.I challenge you.Can you find even one testimony from someone who visited the Balkans before 1860 and mentioned the non-existent then <Macedonian ethnicity> ? I found a plenty of them who didn't mention it.These are the rules of the game and according to them you have suffered a heavy defeat,regardless of the fact that your blind chauvinism don't allow you to accept it.
(maybe you are bot? or you are paid per copy-past by the greek government). Please stop pasting that big messages, and tell me one by one.

HAHAHAHA?I think it's time for me to resign from my job since i can become rich only by this copy/pasting.This shows one more time your naivity,if you really believe that the Greek government hasn't any other work to do than <paying per copy-paste> someone to fight your on net propaganda!But i can understand you.You've been brainwashed by clowns like Stefov and Tentov that in Macedonia didn't exist any Greeks prior to 1912,there were only your brothers whose dream was to join with you one day.
I don't see my "yellow card" in this forum, so probably you asked for that?
I hope you can stand it and you will not stop me from posting on this site after I tell you about your propaganda flows, because it will be in your best interest (you may think of even better propaganda, and be promoted to strategos-bot).

But even if you block me, that will just show about your type of talking, similar to your type of talking about the problems you have with our name in the UN, where you are avoiding Nimitz as a the Devil that runs away from Cross (stavros).
Listen,dude,i'm not a moderator so i can't block anyone.But even if had the power for this i would never do that and particularly to you.I would never kick away such a chance to ridicule your absurd claims.
whatever, i am here - please choose your best "fact" and hit me. Not all that spam, just the best one that shows that macedonians (kind like me) are not macedonians, and the whole world was full of greeks and only greeks, everywhere greeks... and the earth is flat... and the king is alive.... and the greek space ship full of greeks that landed in area 51.... or what ever is your theory
But please - Short, not more then 1 or 2 screens. I can not go up and down, all the time....
I've already shown you a lot of evidence that reveal your true identity.Especially the last one by this American journalist who lived for 9 months amongst a komitadji band and fought along them is the most valuable.And i never said that you could find <everywhere Greeks>.You are the one that see everywhere <Macedonians> when you claim that the Bulgarians where actually <Macedonians>.

If I am Macedonian, citizen of "Republic of Greece" who is born and lives in Voden, could i put "Voden" as a living town in the <greek> passport? Or I must use artificial name of Edessa? Look at your map, what is the name for Voden?
Would ever FYROM's authorities edit a passport for a Greek who lives in your country using the word <Monastir> instead <Bitola> ?

[kostas68]

1. Be carefull - i want to think. Not to REPEAT what somebody had said 10 or 100 or 1000 years ago. They were probably writing half truths, depending on the side they took, depending how they were instructed, depending how they were lied by the locals, or the side they were paid by. So I want to think, and IN COLOR, not BLACK and WHITE.
Let's say your oppinion is right and that some of these foreign travelers who visited the Balkans before 100,150,200 0r 400 years didn't mention the <Macedonian ethnicity>,either because they weren't careful or they were paid by someone (really who would paid them for this in 1550 or 1640 and why?)By the way,another traveler who visited Skopje in 1640 and didn't find any ethnic <Macedonians>,only Turks,Albanians and Serbians:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6534/skop1631covcz0.th.gif (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skop1631covcz0.gif)http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6269/skop1631aik7.th.gif (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skop1631aik7.gif)http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7786/skop1631bbj7.th.gif (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skop1631bbj7.gif)

But can you tell me,how come that no one of those travelers mentioned ever a <Macedonian> ethnicity prior to 1860?It's impossible,despite all the bribes or the carelessness you claim there had to be at least one single person that would mention this ethnicity!Can you find him?Watch out,i am talking before 1860 and a concrete passage where the author writes clearly about the ethnicities and their numbers that dwell in a concrete city,region or village.We can't find something like this.Why?Weren't the <Macedonians> so rich then to bribe these authors in order to write something in their favor?
Also I see your newspapers and they blindness about CURRENT situation in Macedonia, and PERMANENTLY denaying that Macedonians exist, and that all are greeks, when (AT LEAST) some are not..
We don't deny your existence.We deny your pseudoethnicity and your attempt to usurp an identity and a history that doesn't belongs you,as all the globally respectable historians,scholars,intellectuals e.t.c accept.
I do not inisist on "my side" (there are many other newspaper articles from 1890s and 1900s who clearly distinguish Macedonians from Greeks (did you read the pdf i have posted with a 1902 NY times article: Greek betrayed Macedonians?), but i will skip them for now).
And i showed you a lot of articles from the same era that use interchangeably the terms <Bulgarian> and <Macedonian> for the same persons.That proves that the term <Macedonian> was used only by regional meaning and the term Bulgarian was used for their ethnicity.Read here what they really believed about this <Macedonian> ethnicity:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/bulgschmac.gif

As for this article <Greeks betrayed Macedonians> read below and answer me:Why Greece helped these Macedonians?Was Greece helping VMRO?No off course.The newspaper used the term Macedonian by regional meaning only.These Macedonians were actually Greeks and therefore Greece helped them,whereas the Macedonians from your article were Bulgarians.The term Macedonia was just a geographical designation,not an ethnic.If we read somewhere about Bavarians,that means they are a distinct ethnicity and not Germans?The same goers for the Alsatians,the Sicilians,the Boehms,the Andalusians,are all these distinct ethnicities?

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/18960729.jpg


2. Yes, "Bulgarians" has similar habits to macedonians. I do not deny it. (serbs, and albanians, and "greeks", too, have similar habits, but less and less and less).
Don't try to persuade me about that. I know that Bulgarians are similar to Macedonians.
However, I doubt if <Bulgarians> ARE Bulgarians? (i will use marking for nations of today with this signs < >, to distinguish them from the medieval or ancient times) On the contrary I claim that <bulgarians> are in most part MACEDONIANS, and from there it is the similarity.
There were changes, the last changes from 1920s to 1940s when many macedonians from Drama, kavala, seres were expelled/escaped to bulgaria.
But there are even deeper questions - unanswered.
Why I think that <Bulgarians> are more Macedonian then Bulgarian? You will know if you answer the following question:
That Bulgarians, from around 5th century - did they speak our (macedonian) languge or some other? why are then <bulgarians> speaking (modified) macedonian?
ON THE OTHER SIDE, <Macedonians> and <Bulgarians> had 200 years of very different positions and culture, so now - they are different CULTURALLY.
I may go on. But please answer in short if you agree to this, to continue.
Now who is the fanatical?Me or you who considers all the Bulgarians <Macedonians>?Sorry,but history writes about Bulgarians,the Bulgarian Tsars Symeon,Samouil,Ivan Assen,not Macedonians,and all the Byzantine historians refer to them as Bulgarians.But let me guess:They were all paid by the Bulgarians,eh?:rolleyes:

[rtgs]

It was the Serbian point of view. What do you think they would show?


aha - some historical maps are Serbian propaganda (have not true point of view), and some are prure (greek) truth... :-)


i won't comment in more details that:
1. there is ANOTHER color for serbs on that map, different from the macedonian color and they were not written macedonians, but macedonian slavs, only becuase of the "serbian point of view" ?
2. greeks are ANOTHER color, and guess what - i don't see it in "CENTRAL" Macedonia, aka Voden (eddesa)

Just THINK yourself.


If you were clever enough you would find the year, it is from 1914 and it was presented to the Carnegie committee. The oldest maps show all of the population as Greek (Patriarchists, no Exarchate = Bulgaria is Greek. Ha!)

No i am not that clever to dig in the hiSTORY and live in the past.

I like to live in tommorow, or at least TODAY.


It is a SERBIAN map and the light Green is meant for SERBS.

and the dark green above is for serbs too?



You should have borders with Turkey or Iraq or Afghanistan, instead of Greece, and then I would like to see what would be your opinion about the borders in general.

First - we are far much better then Iraq or Afganistan. There are FREE people here, you may come and see. Without any visa at all. (i don't see the problem with Turkey, they are very free country and if you go in their 5 star hotels you will find luxury which doesn't exist in "Greece", and yes - Turkey protects you and me from the Iraq madness)

Second - I was thinking about borders for a FREE passage of people. Not to change governments responsible for the well being in the regions. you may keep it administratively - just let the people LIVE. TODAY. Not in 1914...


Probably in Epirus.
Very close: In "Kastoria". Because greeks love macedonians...





I know that, my granpa suffered there for 3 1/2 years, he almost died because he was a "durduvak" (forced labor slave)


I don't know what does it mean "durduvak" ? Was it in Macedonia ??? (somebody is lying you - we don't have a word near to "durduvak")



We saw what sort of Switzerland was Yugoslavia. We know that if the Albanians didn't rebel, you should still deny them their democratic rights (one vote for every two Albanians because you conveniently "forgot" to update the census eh?)


Yeas, I agree that Yugoslavia (even much more free that Greece today (not to compare to the regimes of greece in the past which were even worse)) was bad country. Macedonians, and Albanians and slovenians were oppressed by the serbs.

We have one vote (albanians and macedonians), but after we are going to vote we were always over voted. That is why, instead of liberating Macedonia, we liberated Istria.

We also have right to free speach (and albanians had university on albanian) - something you could not achieve even now for albanians and macedonians in greece.


When was the last time that we killed someone for that reason? Did you confuse us with the Turks? They are the ones who still kill Armenians, Kurds, Catholic missionaries e.t.c.

massively - probably in 1970s. In rare cases, or as a dissapeerance or as a sickness, or as beating EVEN know. Did you read that 5 greeks had beaten a macedonian truck driver, jsut because he is macedonian, few months ago ? They must be very brave - 5 to 1. The famous greek brave people. You are 10 to 1, and you are very brave.



The passport should convey accurate information. You cannot possibly use different passwords showing the same place with different names, because the officials might get confused if they see such unusual data.


The question is what is accureate? For the Turks - USKUB is accurate and we put both on the passport.

[kostas68]

aha - some historical maps are Serbian propaganda (have not true point of view), and some are prure (greek) truth... :-)


i won't comment in more details that:
1. there is ANOTHER color for serbs on that map, different from the macedonian color and they were not written macedonians, but macedonian slavs, only becuase of the "serbian point of view" ?
2. greeks are ANOTHER color, and guess what - i don't see it in "CENTRAL" Macedonia, aka Voden (eddesa)

Just THINK yourself.
I wonder whether you can't read or you need a good ophthalmologist.Don't you see in the top of the map what is written:POINT DE VUE SERBE,below the <CARTE ETHNOGRAPHIQUE DE LA MACEDOINE>?And left in the bottom:D'apres le Dr.CvijivcIt's not just Petros' assertion that this map was the Serbian point of view,it's indeed the truth.And do you know who was Cvijic and what was his purpose for the creation of such maps?Read here,particularly in the last paragraph:

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/5913/macconfldansf64om8.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/macconfldansf65.gif

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/3780/macconfldansfcovhi4.gif

You see,the Greeks and especially the Macedonians aren't forgers.When we claim something it's true.
No i am not that clever to dig in the hiSTORY and live in the past.
Off course you don't dig history because it's your biggest enemy.The truth is written by the history and you all avoid the truth <as the devil avoids the frankincense> according to the Greek proverb.
I like to live in tommorow, or at least TODAY.
and the dark green above is for serbs too?
O.K. since you like to live in today you should be able to face this today:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/macconf78.gif
It's from the same book above.
As you see you haven't more than 10.000-20.000 of your folks in Greece,so forget all this bulshit about 300.000 -400.000 <Macedonians> in Greece.

First - we are far much better then Iraq or Afganistan. There are FREE people here, you may come and see. Without any visa at all. (i don't see the problem with Turkey, they are very free country and if you go in their 5 star hotels you will find luxury which doesn't exist in "Greece", and yes - Turkey protects you and me from the Iraq madness)
Maybe you're right abouth the hotels(although i doubt very much) but you forget that ordinary people doesn't live in 5 star hotels.Every attempt of you to compare the development level between Greece and Turkey is funny.As for your claim that <Turkey protects us from Iraq>,what can i say.I really wonder whether you believe it really or you're trying to fool yourself.
I don't know what does it mean "durduvak" ? Was it in Macedonia ??? (somebody is lying you - we don't have a word near to "durduvak")
Yes,it was in Greek Eastern Macedonia during the Bulgarian occupations in WW1 and WW2.The Bulgarians expelled many thousands of the Greek population in concentrations camps in Bulgaria and in today's FYROM soil.Off course we can't accuse you for this.During WW1 1916-17 approximately 120 men were expelled from my village and only 30 returned back after the end of the war.You can find simmilar numbers in many other Greek villages in Macedonia.As for the term <durduvaki>,off course you can't understand it since it's the Hellenized form of the Bulgarian term <trud voinik>.I didn't spel it right but i think i helped you to understand what it means.

[MAKEDONELLHNAS]

Im so sick of this rtgs guy, everything he posts never has a link or proof to back it up and everything we post no matter if its a book, map, anything with a link to it its propaganda, wtf? Talking about being stubborn and not being able to accept the truth. This type of people are in such denial that even if Alexander the great came from the dead and told him he was Greek he would call him a liar and claim its Greek propaganda. Accept the truth and move on.

[rtgs]

Whose NATO bombing of "yugoslavia" in 1999?


I think that we all know who was NATO in 1999. around 16 countries, Greece INCLUDED. Yes, you bombed Yugoslavia and CNN reported that in that way you are saving Albanians against crual Serbs.


I just compared your propaganda, with CNN.

[rtgs]

Im so sick of this rtgs guy, everything he posts never has a link or proof to back it up and everything we post no matter if its a book, map, anything with a link to it its propaganda, wtf? Talking about being stubborn and not being able to accept the truth. This type of people are in such denial that even if Alexander the great came from the dead and told him he was Greek he would call him a liar and claim its Greek propaganda. Accept the truth and move on.

ha ha ha


and if he same back, and tell you how he kicked greeks many times, you will post him some propaganda books and told him that everybody in 18th and 19th century tought he was greek and he must be greek :-)

[rtgs]

Off course you don't dig history because it's your biggest enemy.The truth is written by the history and you all avoid the truth <as the devil avoids the frankincense> according to the Greek proverb.


I don't avoid hiStory because it is not on "my side", but because I don't like to live in the past.

Furthermore: You don't "dig" present, because it is not easy to twist, as with your hiSTORY. And you all avoid the PRESENT.... :-)

Finallt, kostas, stop spaming me with all that copy paste propaganda.

tell me, with short sentense your strongest "FACT" and let discuss about it, before we go on the next one. To put all we think that we know about that and reach final conclusion. Opening 100 questions, without will to reach conclusion EVEN at one, is a sign that you don't have firm stance on ANY.

[Mygdonia]

Quirky posts from a very strange and weird person. No wonder your nation is a disgrace whenn it has citizens like you.

[kostas68]

I don't avoid hiStory because it is not on "my side", but because I don't like to live in the past.

Furthermore: You don't "dig" present, because it is not easy to twist, as with your hiSTORY. And you all avoid the PRESENT.... :-)

Finallt, kostas, stop spaming me with all that copy paste propaganda.

tell me, with short sentense your strongest "FACT" and let discuss about it, before we go on the next one. To put all we think that we know about that and reach final conclusion. Opening 100 questions, without will to reach conclusion EVEN at one, is a sign that you don't have firm stance on ANY.
Budy,you are an extraordinary case of trol who should be exhibited in an antropological museum.OK,let's play the game with your rules.I'll post every time one single fact.Read this book below (Reise durch das innere der Europäischen Türkei=Travels through the interior of European Turkey) ,written by Heinrich Barth,a German who visited your country in 1862 and didn't find any ethnic <Macedonians> but only Bulgarians:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/germcov-1.png

The village Kremme near Negotino is inhabited half by Muslims and half by Bulgarians and the river Vardar is called by its both Bulgarian and Greek names,Axios and Vardar:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/germ124.png

The village Rosdene near Prilep is inhabited by 40 Bulgarian families.Notice also the name Saloniki,not Solun:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/germ130.png

The Bulgarian population of Prilep is 11.000:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/germ137.png

The mountain Peristeri near Monastir is called by the Bulgarians <Sucha Gora> = Dry mountain.Notice also the Greek toponyms Florina instead Lerin,Monastir instead Bitola and the village Khristohori.Really,this toponym exist till today in your country or you changed it to a Bulgarian name?

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/germ149-1.png

The villages Banitsa and Zaburdero are inhabited by Rayas or Bulgarians,but not <Macedonians> :
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/germ155.png

Now can you explain me please,why this German didn't find any ethnic <Macedonians> in 1864?Were they hiden somewhere?Were they abducted by aliens?Was he bribed?By whom and why?What were the incentives of those who bribed him and why the <ethnic Macedonians> didn't the same,so that someone would write something in their favor and mention their existence?

[MAKEDONELLHNAS]

ha ha ha


and if he same back, and tell you how he kicked greeks many times, you will post him some propaganda books and told him that everybody in 18th and 19th century tought he was greek and he must be greek :-)

First of all Greeks fought Greeks all the time in the ancient times
Second Alexander was Greek and always made sure thieves like you would be able to read this in history books, but unfortunately you dont read history books.

[rtgs]

Budy,you are an extraordinary case of trol who should be exhibited in an antropological museum.....

Buddy - you are extraordinary SPAMMER. I asked you to put 1 simple statement, you put me 30 pages of spam. I really don't want to lose my time on your propaganda. I don't like to look in the past.


Tell me ONE reason, why I should be not Macedonian?
The strongest reason of you, so we may elaborate...


That is to discuss if you know to discuss. It is not just copy-paste propaganda which was prepared from somebody else.

[Mygdonia]

What kostas is doing is not spamming one iota he is backing up his statements from sources something you clearly can not comprehend nor do.

[akritas]

Tell me ONE reason, why I should be not Macedonian?
The strongest reason of you, so we may elaborate...

If we speak with modern social terms because of your..... Historical past.!!!
Your ethnic group was Bulgarian, have fought with the Bulgarians and finally almost of your leaders identified as Bulgarians. Macedonian ethnicity was in invention of Tito regime that had as aim the occupy of Macedonia.

[kostas68]

Buddy - you are extraordinary SPAMMER. I asked you to put 1 simple statement, you put me 30 pages of spam. I really don't want to lose my time on your propaganda. I don't like to look in the past.


Tell me ONE reason, why I should be not Macedonian?
The strongest reason of you, so we may elaborate...


That is to discuss if you know to discuss. It is not just copy-paste propaganda which was prepared from somebody else.

Is this reason not enough?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

[kostas68]

Is this not another reason:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/carn26.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/carncov.jpg
You called yourselves <from time immemorial Boulgari>.Don't tell us again it was Greek propaganda.I hope you know what was the Carnegie commission.

[rtgs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtgs View Post
Tell me ONE reason, why I should be not Macedonian?
The strongest reason of you, so we may elaborate...


If we speak with modern social terms because of your..... Historical past.!!!
Your ethnic group was Bulgarian, have fought with the Bulgarians and finally almost of your leaders identified as Bulgarians. Macedonian ethnicity was in invention of Tito regime that had as aim the occupy of Macedonia.

totally off topic. where is the strongest argument, other then free juberiish and confusing sentances, not logical, simple propaganda statements.

my statement, if i wish to talk like you will be:
If we speak with modern social terms because of your..... Historical past.!!!
Your ethnic group was gypsy, have fought with the gypsies (that means: not fight at all, but just steel) and finally almost of your leaders identified as Gypsies. Greek ethnicity was in invention of anti otoman regimes that had as aim the occupy ottoman empire.

If i have, instead of 1 minute, time to think 300 years, like you had to invent your propaganda, it was going to be even stronger :-)

[rtgs]

Is this reason not enough?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

hi hi hi hi
this is the strongest argument???????????????????

I have seen many people who, when forced to wall, say anything....


He HAD TO SAY, whatever you asked him to. You first put an embargo CLOSED THE BORDERS FOR KNOW OTHER REASON THEN TO MAKE HIM SAY SO.

He simply lied to you. Very bad, but it was reaction to your even worse action: embargo. (i.e. way to kill us)

We don't have the alternate routes to drach and burgas (which we are using now, because of the "strike" in the solun harbor), and we have to survive. I have seen many muslims and croats in Bosnia who claimed to be serbs, when caught and tortures in the serb concentration camps.


that is what many macedonians do know in greece: lie that they are macedonians, just to live (some like cowboy has find himself in that lie).

I told you - you made a bad thihng: EMBARGO, he had to lie. Or more precise to twist the history AS YOU WISH.



Is it clear that THIS IS NOT ARGUMENT, or you have questions (that will take 20 pages and force me not to answer)?

[rtgs]

Is this not another reason:
...
You called yourselves <from time immemorial Boulgari>.Don't tell us again it was Greek propaganda.I hope you know what was the Carnegie commission.


What is carnegie commision?
It is political structure to serve the greeks. there was war in 1914 and english need greece on their side against germans.

it is the similar type of commisions as the ones that have seen serb attrocities and mass graves on the football stadium in Prishtina. (and there were NO graves)

[kostas68]

What is carnegie commision?
It is political structure to serve the greeks. there was war in 1914 and english need greece on their side against germans.

it is the similar type of commisions as the ones that have seen serb attrocities and mass graves on the football stadium in Prishtina. (and there were NO graves)

Your Skopian brain makes very easily conclusions while you haven't any clue about what you are talking.If you ever read the report of the Carnegie commission you'll ascertain that it was anything but pro-Greek:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/carnmemb.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/carnpref.jpg

So you imply that all these people,Austrians,Germans,Britains,Frenchmen and Russian were biased in favor of Greece?And why they hid the existence of the <Macedonians>?Again a global conspiracy against the poor <Macedonians>,these eternal victims!:rolleyes:

[kostas68]

He simply lied to you. Very bad, but it was reaction to your even worse action: embargo. (i.e. way to kill us)
Your excuse is very cheap.A true patriot never renounces his ethnicity even under the threat of death.Gligorov just said the truth.
Is it clear that THIS IS NOT ARGUMENT, or you have questions (that will take 20 pages and force me not to answer)?
You can't answer even a single post of mine don't find now laughable justifications.Can you explain why this Italian traveler below didn't find any ethnic <Macedonians> when he visited Skopje in 1641?He found only Turks, Albanians and Serbians.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6534/skop1631covcz0.gif

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6269/skop1631aik7.gif

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7786/skop1631bbj7.gif

[rtgs]

Your Skopian brain makes very easily conclusions while you haven't any clue about what you are talking.If you ever read the report of the Carnegie commission you'll ascertain that it was anything but pro-Greek

who said it was "pro-greek". it was made by the western people. If "pro greek" was in their favor, it was pro-greek. If "anti greek" was in their favor it was anti greek.

HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE WINNERS.

In 20th century - Turkey lost.

[kostas68]

who said it was "pro-greek". it was made by the western people. If "pro greek" was in their favor, it was pro-greek. If "anti greek" was in their favor it was anti greek.

HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE WINNERS.

In 20th century - Turkey lost.

And what has to do the Turkish defeat with your case?The winners were Greece,Serbia and Bulgaria,not Great Britain,Germany,Austria,France,Russia and USA,the countries where the members of the Carnegie commission were from.Why the commission wrote on its report that your people were Bulgarians?Why they didn't find ethnic <Macedonians> ?And why you don't answer to my second post,about the Italian traveler who didn't find ethnic <Macedonians> in 1641 as well?

[rtgs]

And what has to do the Turkish defeat with your case?The winners were Greece,Serbia and Bulgaria,not Great Britain,Germany,Austria,France,Russia and USA,the countries where the members of the Carnegie commission were from.Why the commission wrote on its report that your people were Bulgarians?Why they didn't find ethnic <Macedonians> ?And why you don't answer to my second post,about the Italian traveler who didn't find ethnic <Macedonians> in 1641 as well?

Think a little bit - the losers were Ottoman empire and people in it.

The winners on the small scene maybe were greece and serbia, but on the main scene it was western countries. You were just a tool. Like a rooster on a rooster fights. The winner is the owner, not the rooster.

***

Italian traveler in 1641 hadn't found Macedonians? I didn't see that, but even if I would I was not going to lose time to comment on that.


I know of another Italian who found <Indians> in what we call today America, just 140 years before that brave Italian who "didn't find macedonians".

I also know of another large group of Italians about that time, who burned Nikola Kopernik because they could not see that the Earth rotate around the Sun.

[kostas68]

Think a little bit - the losers were Ottoman empire and people in it.

The winners on the small scene maybe were greece and serbia, but on the main scene it was western countries. You were just a tool. Like a rooster on a rooster fights. The winner is the owner, not the rooster.
Again you can't give a compensatory answer,or better to say,you avoid to give any.Why all the members of an international commission didn't find any ethnic <Macedonians> in 1913?Who would gain something by this?What exactly would he gain?And don't forget that the members of this commission were from various countries that had ambivalent interests and were on opposite sides during the WWI which started short after the publication of the report.So you can't claim that there was a consensus between them in order to hide the existence of the <Macedonian> ethnicity.And don't tell the typicall excuse,that they labeled the ethnic <Macedonians> as Bulgarians due to religious reasons (they were both exarchists),because they could distinguish the various ethnicities despite the religious classification.If you notice,in the same page were it writes about the Bulgarians <from time immemorial>,is a mention about patriarchists of every kind,Greeks,Wallachians and Serbians.
Italian traveler in 1641 hadn't found Macedonians? I didn't see that, but even if I would I was not going to lose time to comment on that.
I know of another Italian who found <Indians> in what we call today America, just 140 years before that brave Italian who "didn't find macedonians".
I also know of another large group of Italians about that time, who burned Nikola Kopernik because they could not see that the Earth rotate around the Sun.
This example with Colombus is wrong.Colombus was in a land where no other European steped foot before him.He didn't know where exactly he was,he thought he was in India and therefore called the natives <Indians>.The case with the Italian in Skopje is very different.He wasn't in an unknown continent,he was in a known European land whose inhabitants were known,he wasn't the one who discovered them.If he made a mistake and confused the lands,it's more possible that he thought he was in Serbia,that's why he found Serbians instead Bulgarians.Or maybe he was right and your ancestors called themselves Serbians back in 1641?

[rtgs]

Again you can't give a compensatory answer,or better to say,you avoid to give any.


you avoid to read my answers. I told you why they hadn't (political reasons).
I never avoid to give answers (unless you are so boring that i don't even read the question).



Why all the members of an international commission didn't find any ethnic <Macedonians> in 1913?Who would gain something by this?What exactly would he gain?


Greece and Serbia and Bulgaria would gain. become stronger, and turn ottoman out of europe. that is very simple.


further more, go back to Misirkov (born in Pela) and see what he was. maybe they skipped him.


This example with Colombus is wrong.Colombus was in a land where no other European steped foot before him.He didn't know where exactly he was,he thought he was in India and therefore called the natives <Indians>.The case with the Italian in Skopje is very different.He wasn't in an unknown continent,he was in a known European land whose inhabitants were known,he wasn't the one who discovered them.If he made a mistake and confused the lands,it's more possible that he thought he was in Serbia,that's why he found Serbians instead Bulgarians.Or maybe he was right and your ancestors called themselves Serbians back in 1641?

my friend - you are either young and naive OR very stupid.

columbus exactly knew they are not indians. but it was in his FAVOR to call them indians.

furthermore, why do you think that he know where he was. let's say i am wrong and we are not macedonians (you will agree with that). then let's say my friend from UK comes and I told him this is macedonia. Then he writes back that there are no greeks in macedonia, because there are no greeks in skopje. why are u stuck in the past???
I saw CNN reporters who could not see serbs in kosovo either. Even kosovo is not "very young" to them.

why don't you come to skopje and see real macedonians? why don't you go through the web and read who is refereed to as greek, and who as macedonian. very simple.

[Truth Bearer]

Kosta this guys intteligence and handling of the English language is piss poor I think his times up as as usual he has no idea what yr talikng about nor is he contributing on the forum it's all baloney!!

[kostas68]

you avoid to read my answers. I told you why they hadn't (political reasons).
I never avoid to give answers (unless you are so boring that i don't even read the question).
That's a hilarious excuse.You act like an ostrich.You avoid to face the truth when it doesn't suits you.
Greece and Serbia and Bulgaria would gain. become stronger, and turn ottoman out of europe. that is very simple.
The report of the carnegie commission wasn't written by Greeks,Bulgarians and Serbians.
urther more, go back to Misirkov (born in Pela) and see what he was. maybe they skipped him.
Don't worry,i've read Misirkov's <Za Makedonski raboti> and i understand what he was:A Bulgarian from Macedonia who suddenly decided that he would be no more Bulgarian but <Macedonian>.That's fine,everyone can do this.And his book is actually a boring and repeated attempt to convince his fellow compatriots that they are no more Bulgarians but they should start to call themselves ethnic <Macedonians>.Did you notice how many times he mentions the words Bulgarian,Bulgaria e.t.c. ? It's indeed very funny.
my friend - you are either young and naive OR very stupid.
Unfortunately i'm neither the first but fortunately nor the second and the third.
columbus exactly knew they are not indians. but it was in his FAVOR to call them indians.
Colombus actually didn't give a shit about the real name of those natives,he just had to call them somehow and he decided to call them Indians since he thought he was in India.
furthermore, why do you think that he know where he was.
Did i say that???I said the opposite!!!
let's say i am wrong and we are not macedonians (you will agree with that). then let's say my friend from UK comes and I told him this is macedonia. Then he writes back that there are no greeks in macedonia, because there are no greeks in skopje.I saw CNN reporters who could not see serbs in kosovo either. Even kosovo is not "very young" to them.
That's again a wrong example.All the foreign journalists know that there is a Greek region called Macedonia.The case with the Italian traveler is very simple.He visited Scopje in 1641 and he wrote in his book about the ethnicities that dwelled in the city and the region.He didn't mention ethnic <Macedonians>.What's the conclusion?That your ancestors at that time didn't call themselves Macedonians,they had a different ethnic name.As for the CNN reports that didn't mention Serbs in Kossovo,they had their reason.They wanted to justificate what their goverment did to the Serbians.But what reason would have in 1641 an Italian to hide the existence of any ethnicity?
why are u stuck in the past???
What bothers you the past?There are many secrets hiden in the past.Are you afraid of these secrets?Are you afraid of the truth that is hiden with these secrets?
why don't you come to skopje and see real macedonians?
Oh,i haven't the need to come in Skopje to see real Macedonians!I just go out of my house and i see a lot of them.