The last century or so, it has become a norm of every country attempting to claim parts of Hellinic history.
Be they Nazis based on a wild theory promoted by Nordicists, speaking of blonde-blue-eyed Hellines overrun by various tribes and having lost their original identity as allegedly proven by the physical appearance of 'modern' Hellines..
Afrocentrists claiming everything from Egypt to Athena and Socrates,
Bulgarians making claims on Thrace and Pelasgians.. our beloved Skopians claiming Alexander and Makedonia...etc

Among these wild theories, is that of the heroic Souliotes being Albanians...

This edition clears the whole issue...



http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/6080/souli15ws.jpg



http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/6545/souli20jl.jpg



http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/7047/souli38bi.jpg



http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/2177/souli46pq.jpg



http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/5858/souli50tu.jpg




http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/7834/souli67wx.jpg




http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/4789/souli72kn.jpg



http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/9533/souli87hr.jpg




http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/7470/souli95sv.jpg



http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/539/souli101ct.jpg




Really interesting :

- Aikaterine the Great sent a letter asking that the Hellines fight the Ottoman Empire from the inside... The Souliotes were the only ones that immediately responded...

- Ahmet Moufit, (great-grandson of Ali Pasha aka Tepelenis) mocks them because they considered themselves Hellines, makes claims that they are Albanians and for their 'delusion' his great-grandfather attacked them..


Since some may consider the article biased, I'll add a quite interesting quote..

"Here, secluded from the rest of the world, and before the Ottoman arms or the plundering Albanians invaded their peace, the family of the Bozzari ruled supreme, and Marco, tending his father's flocks, conceived those ideas of military glory which were afterwards developed in combating for the liberties of Greece.""

SOURCE:
Greece and the Levant; or, Diary of a summer's excursion in 1834: with epistolary supplements. By the Rev. Richard Burgess., Burgess, Richard, 1796-1881.
P.78

Interesting articles Orphic Hymn, well done the scanning :)

From my historical experience, i know that:

1. Albanians do not have rich written culture, something which made them vulnerable to influences.

2. Their first book is written in Latin influence, and as it is commonly accepted, the Pope seeked to influence the world using Latin dictionary. I'm speaking of the Catholic book called "Meshari" which is of minor historical or linguistic importance.


3. Also, wherever Souliotes settled afterwards they organised revolutionary movements against the occupation forces and had successes against the turkish military. The only country revolting at this time was Greece...

anyway, I find more possible the scenario that we (Greeks) are genetic relatives with Albanians (cousins) that politics of 20th century broke our bonds (at least with Southern Albanians).

Ofcourse, to sum up, Souliotes in total are a mixture of Greeks and Albanians irrespective of analogies (the post includes a survey saying that from 2.400 families at that time, 1.700 were Greek and 400 Albanian)



Many Souliotes became later ministers, generals, artists etc. A living part of Greece civilization that survives until today.

Well the term 'Turk-Albanian' is quite similar to 'Turk-Chams' which was used do denote all those that had adopted the conqueror's mentality and religion and plundered the lands of Hellas.
I recall there was also a couple of Albanian tribes, (Merdites or something like that) that had as a custom to have Turkish wives.So the term very well may have originated from them..

There are a couple of theories around their origins, while some connect them to propaganda, I find it really interesting that Anna Komena in her 'Alexiad', actually points to a non-native origin when saying :

"Robert was being worried on all sides by the so-called Albanians and by the natives of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus."

So she actually separates them from the natives.. and by doing so allows us to believe that the theories may actually have a legitimate basis..

Forgive me if I am mistaken guys, however would it not be fair to say the Souliotes spoke Arvanitika?

I am not insinuating that they did not view themselves as Greek, however most linguists would agree Arvanitika is a Southern Albanian dialect, and the speakers of which in Southern Greece are descendants of these people whom settled in the 14th and 15th centuries.

I have heard the theories that it is a form of Ancient Greek, however I find this difficult to accept when I remember my late Grandmother in Korinthia speaking to Albanian workers with little difficulty.

On another note, would it not be correct to say the following Greeks were Arvanit speakers:

Boboulina
Karaiskakis
Botsari,
Kolokotroni
Kapodistrias

I am not that well versed in the subject, so I would like to know more...

Language doesn't actually designate ethnicity nor enthic conciousness. If it did, we would all be categorized as British or American for posting and speaking in the english language..
The arvanites while obviously had intermixed with the Albanians were obviously not Albanian. Their very name derives from the ancient district of 'Αρβωνος' mentioned in Polybius. The difference is even clearer when we look into Anna Komnenes' Alexiad. There we find her refering to the Arvanites and in a different passage to the Albanians by recording that they are :

"as Robert was being worried on all sides by the so-called Albanians and by the natives of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus"

So while the term 'so-called' doesn't say much about them, the clear difference between them and the 'natives' does. This could be linked to a theory promoted by Slavic circles suggesting a non Balkan origin of the Albanians and an assimilation by the local population. (of that area not Hellas)

As for the language theory you mention, today when we say 'Hellinic language' we always seem to refer to the Attic dialect forgeting that there were several dialects among the Hellinic speakers. Noone can deny that Pontic or Cretan are Hellinic but for someone that totally ignores these dialects, communication may be an obvious problem..
So, while many consider it as a variation of the Albanian, there have been suggestions of direct connection to Hellinic and that this language was 'constructed' during some form of Albanization..
We can find several words in the Arvanitic that can be connected directly to Homeric, an exmaple is "xlek" (χλεκ) = pull .... that seems to be the Homeric 'elkw' (ελκω) in which we see the 'rough breathing' transformed into a 'x'.. or the word for head that is Kare (Καρέ) in Arvanitic and we all know of the Hellinic kara (Kάρα) commonly used when refering to saints.

It is also quite interesting to note that anthropologically speaking. (this notion has been supported by Theodoros Pitsios in his research published by the Hellinic Anthropologic Association) It is literally impossible for the emense Dinaric characteristics seen in Albanians to totally vanish in a time-span of some 600yrs.

Hi there guys , i see its full of national pride here but i think you have to stay with feet on the ground. I have just some question that need a answer ,having present of what u say :Albanians came in Balcans in the 11th centutry...:
1)why many Homeric words are exactly in albanian by form and meaning..?
2)what does it mean in greek the name of godnees Afroditi having present her atributes (in albanian its 100% clear)?
3)why discendents of Bozzari/Bochari family abroad Greece claim with a great proud their albanian ancestry? (are they afraid or paid for that)
4)about the Etrusk people(in the antic north italy before romans) we know that the one who read and translate sth by them was empror Klaud II the Illyrian, and the same things are so easyly understood with the Albanian language today(many albanologs reading in albanian their leters saw that those describes the "pictures" or the tombs and so on...in a perfect way) have albanian been spoken in anticity?Having present their traditional culture , how could soldiers of 11th century, grown up everywhere in battles create a such traditional culture, strong enough to survive to the times?
5)Why antic greek has too many diferences from the new one (at schools , i have heard they are studied apart)
-Here in Italy many profesors of anticity are sure that latin comes from "albanian" the antic one better to say.Its strange but they are sure they have the proves.Now where is the problem...?why so much enemies in Balcans? Besides the Slavs(by ethnicity)all others have so many things in comon?is that a politic or just trendy?

Hi there guys , i see its full of national pride here but i think you have to stay with feet on the ground. I have just some question that need a answer ,having present of what u say :Albanians came in Balcans in the 11th centutry...:

Hi to you too..
Being proud of your history is nothing that someone can accuse you of. As for Albanians arriving in the Balkans at a later time, yes, it is a theory and like all theories (some of which you present in your questions) debatable, the question is.. do you have the answers to address the theory in question ??


1)why many Homeric words are exactly in albanian by form and meaning..?

Says who exactly.. is there a single scholar that has suggested this in an international symposium and hasn't been ridiculed??
The basic problem with these rediculous theories is that your first written text appears in the 1500 AD which is over two thousand years AFTER Homer and thus literally impossible to prove that these are original Albanian words and not some loan.
I'd suggest you centralize on proving the already questionable theory of your relation to Illyrians and then promote Pelasgic and Homeric claims.


2)what does it mean in greek the name of godnees Afroditi having present her atributes (in albanian its 100% clear)?
I've heard it all from you guys.. I know the Zeus = Zot, the Athena = E Thena, Thetis = Det, Odysseus = udhe.. Don't think for a minute that these claims are new to us..

You're probably refering to the manipulated version some of your compatriots are promoting to justify their claims on ancient Hellinic history (see above) in which they present 'Aferdita' as I recall when translated, having some relation to 'morning'. Why is it that you all conveniently neglect to look into mythology?

The word 'mythos' in Hellinic does not have the corrupt meaning of 'fary-tale' it does in english, but means 'speech' in contrast to 'para-mythi' which indicates 'next to speech' and hence the meaning of 'fairy-tale'. Had you looked into the myth which our ancestors considered true records of their past, you would have known that Aphrodite was said to have emerged by the shore of Cyprus. Interestingly enough, we now know that the island had literally emerged from the sea at some point in its history. The finds of fossilized corals and ophiolite on the Troodos mountain prove this to be a fact.


3)why discendents of Bozzari/Bochari family abroad Greece claim with a great proud their albanian ancestry? (are they afraid or paid for that)

Well no matter what they may or may not claim, the Botsari family and Markos considered themselves Hellenes which is why they actually faught for this country and not for the Albanians. Not really much more to say.. he's covered the whole issue with his actions.


4)about the Etrusk people(in the antic north italy before romans) we know that the one who read and translate sth by them was empror Klaud II the Illyrian, and the same things are so easyly understood with the Albanian language today(many albanologs reading in albanian their leters saw that those describes the "pictures" or the tombs and so on...in a perfect way) have albanian been spoken in anticity?Having present their traditional culture , how could soldiers of 11th century, grown up everywhere in battles create a such traditional culture, strong enough to survive to the times?

Sorry but I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.


5)Why antic greek has too many diferences from the new one (at schools , i have heard they are studied apart)

Do try to use caps for names.
Differences.. well the Hellinic language has existed and been spoken for over 3 milleniums. Its simple logic that through the process of such a timespan and foreign influx by Romans, Venetians, Ottomans..etc. the language would have some form of alterations. If you look at 'Old English' or even the 'Shakespearian' form of the language, you'd find that several readers may have a very difficult time comprehending the text, yet you try to compare it to ancient Hellinic which was spoken over 2000yrs ago?? Even so most of the average readers can comprehend the vast majority of 'ancient' texts, its the syntax and grammar that has been simplified and for that reason makes speech quite difficult.
In either way, its not an even match my friend.


-Here in Italy many profesors of anticity are sure that latin comes from "albanian" the antic one better to say.Its strange but they are sure they have the proves.Now where is the problem...?why so much enemies in Balcans? Besides the Slavs(by ethnicity)all others have so many things in comon?is that a politic or just trendy?

I can say one thing for sure. Whoever this Prof. is.. (if he is one to begin with) he should have his diploma (if he has one) taken from him immediately.

How about presenting some info on this.. like how did they come to this conclusion, present similar suffixes, prefixes, roots.. give us some form of proven beyond doubt ancient form of the Albanian language to begin with and then we'll discuss the possibility.

Oh, almost forgot, do provide info about these Prof., like names which Uni. they work in..etc.

Travels in Greece and Turkey: Comprehending a Particular Account of the ... - Page 394
Turkey - 1820 - 482 pages

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/9866/travelsingreeceandturkejs2.jpg



and another account on the ethnicity of the Souliotes:


another document on the Souliotes:

The Asiatic Journaland Monthly Register for British India and Its Dependencies Page762

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4746/theasiaticjournalandmonju1.jpg


Sir Edward Thomasons Memoirs During Half a Century
by Edward Thomason - 1845
Page 259

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7817/siredwardthomasonsmemoipo3.jpg

Well the term 'Turk-Albanian' is quite similar to 'Turk-Chams' which was used do denote all those that had adopted the conqueror's mentality and religion and plundered the lands of Hellas.
I recall there was also a couple of Albanian tribes, (Merdites or something like that) that had as a custom to have Turkish wives.So the term very well may have originated from them..

There are a couple of theories around their origins, while some connect them to propaganda, I find it really interesting that Anna Komena in her 'Alexiad', actually points to a non-native origin when saying :

"Robert was being worried on all sides by the so-called Albanians and by the natives of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus."

So she actually separates them from the natives.. and by doing so allows us to believe that the theories may actually have a legitimate basis..

Non-Native: that's a lie. Albanian and Greek DNA are virtually identical (even if you don't like it ;)

'Turk' meant Muslim. And Suliotes were Albanian. Now they might not to be identified but they are Albanians in blood and they were bandits as were many Albanians and Greeks. The fustanella is also Albanian.

never trust wikipedia but check the sources...from 1800's till now. Why would a Greek scholar and Dumas back then lie about them being Albanian?


"rather than capitulate to notorious Balkan warlord Ali Pasha, the Albanian Suliot women chose suicide...[and] The Suliot dance of death is an integral image of the Greek revolution and it has been seared in into the consciousness of Greek schoolchildren for generations. Many youngsters pay homage to the memory of these Orthodox Albanians each year by recreating the event in the elementary school pageants"



"The Souliotes were Albanian speaking Christians who were chased by Ali Pasha at the turn of the 19th Century. They have become national heroic figures in Greek history as representations of Greek resistance to Turkish oppression because women and children committed suicide rather than being captured"



"Such were the people of Souli, Christian Albanians who were never fully subdued till 1803, when they were overcome by Ali of Joannina. This was a conquest of Christians by Mahometans ; but it was not a conquest of Christians by Turks. It was in truth a conquest of Albanians by Albanians. Ali was a cruel and faithless tyrant ; still he was not a Turk, but an Albanian ; he was a rebel against the Sultan, and he was so far an indirect friend of the Sultan's enemies."



I can't post links, sorry. No one is trying to steal them, they are now Greeks in nationality and mentality, but back then...

The biggest mistake (purposeful) is to try to divide them by saying they were "orthodox" fighting "Muslim" Albanians. That meant jack. Muslims and Christians fought for Ali Pasha and Souli ripped off Muslims and Christians. Even Ali Pasha wasn't a religious at all, just went with the flow. In the end he even offered to become orthodox :)

Nice of you to post, but also look over accounts from that time period which you can clearly see above.

Apparently first hand travelers like Miller, Thomason and other westerners alike form that time period knew the Souliotes as a mix of Greeks and Abanian Orthodox. Whether you like it or not. :)

Non-Native: that's a lie. Albanian and Greek DNA are virtually identical (even if you don't like it ;)
Lie?
Read the Alexiad of A.Comnena Book 6, chap 7 (just above 8) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/annacomnena-alexiad06.html):

"as Robert was being worried on all sides by the so-called Albanians and by the natives of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus. "

Keep in mind that Dalmatia back then wasn't the same region we consider it today.. as for genetics, like 'em, sorry but I just don't care for them..

'Turk' meant Muslim. And Suliotes were Albanian. Now they might not to be identified but they are Albanians in blood and they were bandits as were many Albanians and Greeks. The fustanella is also Albanian.
Yeah and I'm a Martian.. texts like the memoirs of General Makrygiannis make no use of the term Turk as a religious denomination but as a racial one, hence why the Albanians aren't refered to as such.
Arvanites as already clarified considered themselves Hellenes, unlike what you may believe there is no single account of any one of them disassociating themselves from neither Hellenes nor Hellas... as for the foustanella, there's a whole topic about it.. take it there (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/epirus-forum/917-foustanella.html).

never trust wikipedia but check the sources...from 1800's till now. Why would a Greek scholar and Dumas back then lie about them being Albanian?
[INDENT]
firstly who's quoting wiki and secondly, while you rush to degrade it as a source, you conveniently neglect to note that your quotes derive from the highly accurate "albanian.com".
So allow me to have some doubts on the correctness of the alleged citation of Gerolymatos' book.. who's Dumas ?



I can't post links, sorry. No one is trying to steal them, they are now Greeks in nationality and mentality, but back then...
But back then what??? did they not fight against your forefathers, were they not fighting for the liberty of Hellas, a Hellas which they considered their homeland ??
So do tell, what exactly was so different back then ?

The biggest mistake (purposeful) is to try to divide them by saying they were "orthodox" fighting "Muslim" Albanians. That meant jack. Muslims and Christians fought for Ali Pasha and Souli ripped off Muslims and Christians. Even Ali Pasha wasn't a religious at all, just went with the flow. In the end he even offered to become orthodox :)
Wake up, they were devided both by religion and beliefs.. one side believing that money is above all and the other upholding traditions and loyalties towards their country.. and what greater proof than the fact that they gave their lives for its liberty!!!
But that "offered to become Christian" actually tops the list of historic inaccuracies.. Exactly WHY would Ali offer to become Christian and to whom did he allegedly present this offer to, the Porte maybe that demanded his surrender or would it be towards the Hellenes who he loved to slaughter??

Search for a sentence in Google books. It is exact and on page 90 or 99.
"The Balkan Wars: Conquest, Revolution, and Retribution from the Ottoman Era"
By André Gerolymatos


>>"as Robert was being worried on all sides by the so-called Albanians and by the natives of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus. "

To me that means Albanians and someone else. What if we didn't name ourselves Albanian? It would the so called Albanians which I never heard of before.

And my forefathers were high up in the mountains dealing with someone else.


I cannot post link yet, but I'll post this from a peer reviewed paper published
recently (on Greek nationalists saying Albos don't have a culture /state :-) )
Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece
Author(s): Laurie Kain Hart
Source: American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1, (Feb., 1999), pp. 196-220
Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American Anthropological Association


"Greek was only one of two commercial languages and
a half-dozen other languages employed in daily life. Ethnic maps from all parties during the
Balkan Wars agree that "the Slav, Albanian and Greek worlds meet just west of Kastoria"
(Aarbakke 1992:20); the eastern frontier of the Albanian presence ran from Kastoria to Lake
Ochrid."



"Finlay's late 19th-century description of the Suliotes gives some impression of the complexity of social categories in this area. To begin with, the Suliotes (celebrated by Byron and in Greek national history for their role in the liberation of Greece) were a "branch of the Tchamides, one of the three great divisions of the Tosks" (Finlay 1939:42)-in other words they initially spoke Albanian. The Tchamides (Tsamides, Cham in Albanian) were both Christian and Muslim by the late 18th century (in the 20th century, Cham applies to Muslims only). In their heyday, Chams reserved the name Suliote for about 100 families who, by virtue of birth, belonged to
the military caste of Suli (Finlay 1939:43). In time, immigrants from elsewhere, attracted by the privileges of autonomy in Suli, assimilated and were also named Suliotes. The Greek peasants who tilled Suliot land "were distinguished by the name of the village in which they dwelt"
(Finlay 1939:44). Clearly clan, class, and territorial labels had significance in addition to religious categories. The Suliotes are retrospectively classified as omoyenis (of Greek descent) and famous patriots, by virtue of their opposition to Turkish rule. Yet they collected taxes from
both Greek and Turkish villages within their own territory, and the question of a national identity can hardly be applied here (see also Perraivos 1836)."


"Berard's description of the Albanian Christian community of Albassan (or Elbasan) in 1896 is revealing of the complexity of cultural and political identifications in the southern Balkans. On the dividing line between the Latin-influenced north and the Greek-influenced south, the city took the form of concentric circles of, in Berard's terms, Albanian Christians, Albanian
Muslims, and Vlachs. The Christians, Berard writes, call themselves Greek and send their children to a Greek school. They are also loyal to the Ottoman Sultan, who, they say, protects Albania from the Slavs, and they place his portrait next to the Holy Icons. "By calling themselves Greeks, they only mean to distinguish themselves from the Bulgars of Macedonia and the
Catholics of high Albania [whom, by the way, they refer to as 'those Mirdite Jews']."

Alexandre Dumas is the guy who wrote a book on Ali Pasha (it's free and you should read it), very interesting. This and other free books show the inner works and how the Souli got paid 500,000 piastras to help Ali fight the Ottoman Turks and a promise to get back their land. A Botsaris was with him till the end. Ali, was not a Turk, nor a real Muslim and he was (much) harsher on Albanians. Power was his religion and he was about to become the first Greek/Albanian ruler but no one trusted him when he asked for cooperation.
He opened Greek schools, supported the new Greek language, arts and everything. Ianina was the capital of Greece and Albania.

Nothing else was happening, that's why Byron and everyone went there. Ali was the Sultan's biggest threat, after the other Albanian, the Egyptian
ruler who fought so he could get a new country (I think Syria) as a reward.

There was class or political class consciousness among common people. They fought not for Hellas (imagine them knowing about Hellas in 1821??) but
for booty. Stop reading Greek school books, it isn't as romantic. For more money they could have fought the Greeks, and Suljotes fought Suljotes.

In the end there were only a few thousand Greeks fighting for independence...and probably more for Ibrahim Pasha. Why?

It isn't as black or white. Read up Byron and Dumas. You will also find out that your church was very close to the Sultan. Very, very close because the Turks hated the Catholics. And Greeks were trusted more than Muslims to deal with certain matters.

Search for a sentence in Google books. It is exact and on page 90 or 99.
"The Balkan Wars: Conquest, Revolution, and Retribution from the Ottoman Era"
By André Gerolymatos
Unfortunately no preview provided.




I cannot post link yet, but I'll post this from a peer reviewed paper published
recently (on Greek nationalists saying Albos don't have a culture /state :-) )
Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece
Author(s): Laurie Kain Hart
Source: American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1, (Feb., 1999), pp. 196-220
Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American Anthropological Association

Well when you cite a text, it would be best to quote all the juicy parts even if you don't like them..

page 199 reads:

In the second place, in this article I respond to puzzles that arose in my own fieldwork in northwest Greek Macedonia during this same period. I have been particularly interested in the interaction and the self-consciousness of different linguistic groups in this border zone and in how these various minority-language speakers, as well as monolingual Greeks, construe their own origins according to prevalent models of nationality and citizenship. Some of those who speak another language (in addition to standard Greek) attribute this allophony to the fact-as they see it-that they, as Greeks, were compelled to speak the language of foreign masters. Latin, Slavic, or Albanian influences are cast as minor distractions in a pattern of primordial national homogeneity. In other cases, informants associate domestic language with intense non-Hellenic ethnic or political attachments.

But to talk analytically in terms of language groups in this zone is to make very crude assumptions about languages and groups. Speaking Albanian, for example, is not a predictor with respect to other matters of identity. In southern Albania, bilingual populations speak Albanian and Greek, and among those who speak Greek are some who have considered themselves either politically or ethnically Greek (or, in certain cases, autonomously Northern
Epirot). The several hundred thousand recent migrants from Albania into Greece include self-described ethnic Greeks as well as other kinds of Albanian citizens. There are also long-standing Christian Albanian (or Arvanitika-speaking) communities both in Epiros and the Florina district of Macedonia with unquestioned identifications with the Greek nation.


Now do you understand why we title them Hellenes?

Oh I do understand why, do not get me wrong. Especially now they identify as 110% Greek, there is no doubt and many orthodox Albanians feel "Greek" due to religion especially since our church is not as strong. How "Hellenes" they were in 1820 and whether they had the slightest clue about Socrates, that's another matter.

Also, how people feel does not change the facts. I can feel Greek too, but I am not. One may feel and love to be a direct descendant of Heracles, but he is not. Joining the Greek church and getting citizenship may make him a Greek, but he is from, say, Guatemala. Of course as generations go by, the "guatemalan" loses its force.

The paper is some 20+ pages. Once you start asking for "Vorio Epirus" I will quote that ;)

some old references: http://books.google.com/books?q=christian+albanian+souli

Sorry about that Greek author's book. I actually read some 50 pages for Free. Maybe it's based on Geotargetign and only certain locations are allowed. Very interesting and scholalry, no emotions or nationalism. Try this:
"Many youngsters pay homage to the memory of these Orthodox Albanians each year by recreating the event [dance of death--my addition] in their elementary school pageants"
is cached on Google:


http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=The%20Suliot%20dance%20of%20death%20is%20an%20in tegral%20image%20of%20the%20Greek%20revolution%20a nd%20it%20has%20been%20seared%20in%20into%20the%20 consciousness%20of%20Greek%20schoolchildren%20for% 20generations.%20Many%20youngsters%20pay%20homage% 20to%20the%20memory%20of%20these%20ORTHODOX%20ALBA NIANS%20each%20year%20by%20recreating%20the%20even t%20in%20the%20elementary%20school%20pageants&um=1&sa=N&tab=wp

One more: "The Suliots were a Christian Albanian tribe, which in the eighteenth century settled in a mountainous area close to the town..."
http://www.jstor.org/pss/881312

Oh I do understand why, do not get me wrong. Especially now they identify as 110% Greek, there is no doubt and many orthodox Albanians feel "Greek" due to religion especially since our church is not as strong. How "Hellenes" they were in 1820 and whether they had the slightest clue about Socrates, that's another matter.
In order for them to have known about the actual works of Socrates, Plato..etc there must have been some form of higher level of education and we all know that that was not the norm at the time in question.. But knowledge of who they were, as in their ancient forefathers, they most definitely did. (see topic titled "folklore")
You again centralize on religion.. religion had nothing to do with ethnic denomination hence why we have numerous, either Byzantine or later texts which refer to Slavs, Albanians, Arvanites, Bulgarians, Armenians, Vlachs..etc by their ethnic denomination and not by their religious belief.

Also, how people feel does not change the facts. I can feel Greek too, but I am not. One may feel and love to be a direct descendant of Heracles, but he is not. Joining the Greek church and getting citizenship may make him a Greek, but he is from, say, Guatemala. Of course as generations go by, the "guatemalan" loses its force.

Firstly, religion has nothing to do with either direct descendance or self-identification and by implying that it does, you are stating that no Hellene can be atheist, buddhist, dodecatheist... or whatever other religious belief one may have and by doing so, clearly deprive them from their right of religious freedom.
As for citizenship, well that can be applied providing we have a nation in the first place and in the time in question, we did not.
So your example of a Guatemalean can only be applied to today or after the liberation of Hellas and the formation of the state.

The paper is some 20+ pages. Once you start asking for "Vorio Epirus" I will quote that ;)
Don't know what you're talking about, but there is a topic related to V.Epirus.



Sorry about that Greek author's book. I actually read some 50 pages for Free. Maybe it's based on Geotargetign and only certain locations are allowed. Very interesting and scholalry, no emotions or nationalism. Try this:
"Many youngsters pay homage to the memory of these Orthodox Albanians each year by recreating the event [dance of death--my addition] in their elementary school pageants"
is cached on Google:


http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=The%20Suliot%20dance%20of%20death%20is%20an%20in tegral%20image%20of%20the%20Greek%20revolution%20a nd%20it%20has%20been%20seared%20in%20into%20the%20 consciousness%20of%20Greek%20schoolchildren%20for% 20generations.%20Many%20youngsters%20pay%20homage% 20to%20the%20memory%20of%20these%20ORTHODOX%20ALBA NIANS%20each%20year%20by%20recreating%20the%20even t%20in%20the%20elementary%20school%20pageants&um=1&sa=N&tab=wp
Well we do celebrate their memory but that has little to do with their ethnicity and a quote from some "scholar" doesn't prove anything about it. In constrat I could quote Lord Byron who knew them obviously a whole lot better than any "scholar" does and titles them pure blooded Hellenes by speaking of "Heracleidan blood" (read "Canto the 3rd"")


One more: "The Suliots were a Christian Albanian tribe, which in the eighteenth century settled in a mountainous area close to the town..."
http://www.jstor.org/pss/881312[/QUOTE]
This is what happens when you quote some "scholar" that writes about issues he/she knows little about and its quite annoying to see that you, even though claim the Suliotes to be Albanian, ignore their history !!!
Christophoros Perraivos in his detailed "History of Souli and Parga....." (http://anemi.lib.uoc.gr/search/?search_type=simple&search_help=&display_mode=overview&wf_step=init&show_hidden=0&number=10&keep_number=10&cclterm1=&cclterm2=&cclterm3=&cclterm4=&cclterm5=&cclterm6=&cclterm7=&cclterm8=&cclfield1=&cclfield2=&cclfield3=&cclfield4=&cclfield5=&cclfield6=&cclfield7=&cclfield8=&cclop1=&cclop2=&cclop3=&cclop4=&cclop5=&cclop6=&cclop7=&search_coll[metadata]=1&&stored_cclquery=creator%3D%28%CE%A0%CE%B5%CF%81%CF %81%CE%B1%CE%B9%CE%B2%CF%8C%CF%82%2C+%CE%A7%CF%81% CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%BF%CF %82%2C%29&skin=&rss=0&display_mode=detail&offset=3&number=1&keep_number=10&old_offset=1&search_help=detail#) originally published 1803, after an analysis of the oldest of Suliote families (Zervas from the village Zerbo of Arta...etc) suggest that Suli is approx. 250yrs old and that tells us volumes about the 18th cent. claim your source makes.

One more: "The Suliots were a Christian Albanian tribe, which in the eighteenth century settled in a mountainous area close to the town..."
http://www.jstor.org/pss/881312

The Souliotes fought for Greek independence. They fought the Sultan and Ali Pasha's Albanian army.

As for their ethnic make up, they were a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians as this book says below.:clapping:



The Ottoman Empire, 1801-1913 - Page 23
by William Miller - Eastern question (Balkan) - 1913 - 547 pages


http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4562/56931324sc5.jpg

>> The Souliotes fought for Greek independence. They fought the Sultan and Ali Pasha's Albanian army.

was that before or after they foughtfor Ali Pasha? And what makes you think "Albanians" got along with "Albanians" or "Greeks" with "Greeks"? The worst stuff Ali did, was against Albanians, like killing some 600 males for what their fathers supposedly did to his mom decades earlier. For every Suli there were dozens of small Albanian villages he conquered, Ali Pasha style.

Also Ali died in 1821 and Suliots were helping him by then.

>> As for their ethnic make up, they were a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians as this book says below.:clapping:

unlike the other books ;). Look it's a political question these days. They're in Greek psyche so any suggestions that they weren't Greek...you get the point.

^^

Simple, the Souliotes considered themselves Greeks and fought for Greek independence not Albanian.;)

Here is an excerpt about them and their heroic leader Marcos Botsaris.

The National Cyclopaedia of Useful Knowledge 1853

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/8664/thenationalcyclopaediaoax6.jpg

>> Simple, the Souliotes considered themselves Greeks and fought for Greek independence not Albanian.

Simple, the Souliotes fought for getting rid of the Turks. There was no idea on what country to form there, at least not for the average klepht. It isn't as romatic as you make it seem. http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture6.html Many Greeks fought forthe Turks, and Greek shipowners were helping Turks as well.


And don' forget that Ali Pasha fired the first shot, by essentially declaring independence. ;)

Simple, the Souliotes fought for getting rid of the Turks. There was no idea on what country to form there, at least not for the average klepht. It isn't as romatic as you make it seem. http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture6.html Many Greeks fought forthe Turks, and Greek shipowners were helping Turks as well.


Wrong again.. try reading the words of Kitsos Tzavelas.. (yeah another one of those Souliotes that you title Albanians).. as written in his letter to Ahmet Neprevistani, in which he clarifies that "these lands are Hellenic".. can't get any simpler than that.:rolleyes:

Simple, the Souliotes fought for getting rid of the Turks.

And fought Albanians serving under the Turks.;)


There was no idea on what country to form there, at least not for the average klepht. It isn't as romatic as you make it seem.

There was no romance at all. They Souliotes took part in the same revolution to create a free Greek state.


http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture6.html Many Greeks fought forthe Turks, and Greek shipowners were helping Turks as well.

The vast majority of Greeks did not fight for Turks, many stayed neutral to keep their lofty positions within the Ottoman Empire.


And don' forget that Ali Pasha fired the first shot, by essentially declaring independence. ;)

Ali Pasha fired the first shot at the Sultan who employed him;)

The definitive rift between Ali Pasha and the Sultan occurred in 1820. The Sultan had appointed a new pasha, who laid siege to Ioannina in August of 1820. Ali Pasha barricaded himself inside the city, relying on its strength and on alliances with the local warlords (although his diplomatic ties with European powers came to nothing). It was to be a war of attrition. Thanks to his military might and his vast fortune, Ali Pasha held out for fourteen months, but as his allies fell away he gave up the city and retired to a final strong point. As long as he lived, he could still hope to buy off some of his besiegers and might even have managed to win back favor with the Sultan. Had he done so, not he, but at least one of his sons or grandsons could have become pasha in his place and everything could slowly have been rebuilt.

If Ali Pasha had won the war, would he have established an independent state? This would have needed not only international recognition, but an ideological foundation, a sense of nationhood. He appears to have thought of proposing a collective form of government, a kind of European constitution, yet at the same time he was trying to reconcile with the Sultan by offering to resign in favour of his youngest son Salih. When the Greek revolution broke out in 1821, however, the first thing the revolutionaries did was to address the European states, proclaiming the independence of the Greek nation. In other words, the ultimate aim was inherent before military victories made it apparent.

But it was politics, not military victories, that finally brought about Greek independence. The Great Powers of Europe had decided on independence, and quite naturally they imposed it. The Greeks proved their determination to fight for the right to freedom; and although in the short term the Sultan overpowered them, his victory was short-lived. The Greek struggle became part of the movement for nationalism, an international movement which was gradually to win over Europe and the rest of the world. Whether illusory or not, Greek ethnicity had the wind in its favor - and that is the major difference between it and Ali Pasha's rebellion.

Ali Pasha imagined himself as a Sultan, with Ioannina as a miniature Constantinople, with palaces surrounded by high walls. But despite his tolerance towards intellectuals and their activities, his plan did not allow for setting up printing-presses to spread Greek nationalistic ideas. By contrast, in Greek communities during or even before the revolution, on many levels ideology led society and even the economy. These two attitudes, of Ali Pasha on the one hand and the Greek-speaking merchant class on the other, define the situation. Ali Pasha's profits were transformed into buildings, castles, flocks and land. In contrast, the shared Greek language held the merchant class together, wherever they happened to live, and part of the profits from trade went into the creation of schools, libraries, books and periodicals. The flourishing of intellectual activity created a strong network which brought many more people together under the same roof, while the Greek language, the mother tongue of many merchants, almost automatically forged a bond between them and the European intelligentsia.

Hi everybody,
I am an Albanian. I was watching your forum for few days and I have been surprised when some people claim the Suliotes as Greeks with the mother tongue Hellenic.
Look out how they sing for their language and braveness:

Kjo gjuha arbërishte
Është gjuhë trimërishte,
E flit Navarhoj Mjauli,
Boçari si dhe i gjith’Suli !

Translation

This Albanian language
is a language of brave people
it's been spoken from Navarhoj Miauli
(Marko) Bocari and the entire region of Soulli

This is a song sang by the Sulliotes during the battles for indipendence.

Poet Rhyanus who is quoted by Steph. Byzantinus

Suliones were another Chaonian tribe.....( Συλίονες).

Their name recall to mind the famous Suliotes.

^^

and of course the Chaones were a Greek tribe as were the Souliotes.:clap2:


The Mercersburg Review - Page 25
by Alumni Association, Franklin and Marshall College - 1860


http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5299/themercersburgreview186an6.jpg

^^

and of course the Chaones were a Greek tribe as were the Souliotes.:clap2:



whose mother tongue is Illyrian and they hardly can speak Greek, even worse than the Athenians:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1479/bayronworkzz6.png

whose mother tongue is Illyrian and they hardly can speak Greek, even worse than the Athenians:


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1479/bayronworkzz6.png


Janina speaks the purest Greek according to Byron, but beyond Argyrocastro and Tepelene the Greek is worst than Athens. I guess the Athenians aren't really Greeks:rolleyes:

As for the Chaones. for future reference...:clapping:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8444/cambridgeonchaonesyn7.jpg

Janina speaks the purest Greek according to Byron, but beyond Argyrocastro and Tepelene the Greek is worst than Athens. I guess the Athenians aren't really Greeks:rolleyes:

As for the Chaones. for future reference...:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8444/cambridgeonchaonesyn7.jpg]

We are talking about Sulliotes:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8160/soullibravewomanci4.png

.. but beyond Argyrocastro and Tepelene the Greek is worst than Athens. I guess the Athenians aren't really Greeks:rolleyes:


Your guess is correct :

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/1535/arvanitegreekgy6.png

As for the Chaones. for future reference...:clapping:



Yes these are the modern Chaones:

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3048/soullibravewomaney8.png

I guess the Athenians aren't really Greeks:rolleyes:



Your Bayron is confirming that being Athenian doesnt mean you are a Greek, he clearly differentiates them:

Byron's 'Letters and Journals' Volume 1: 12 November 1809, PREVESA - ALBANIALetter to his Mother

My Dear Mother, I have been some time in Turkey: this place is on the coast, but I have traversed the interior of the province of Albania ................... Not a week ago an Albanian chief ... after helping us out of the Turkish galley, feeding us, and lodging my suite, consisting of Fletcher, a Greek, two Athenians, a Greek priest and my companion, Mr. Hobhouse, refused any compensation ... and when I pressed him to accept a few sequins, 'No', he replied; 'I wish you to love me, not to pay me'. These are his words (p.279).

^^

I'll get back to you on the Arvanites in Athens during the late 19th century tomorrow. As for the Albanian Souliotes, as the book that I posted said above. The Souli were a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Orthodox Albanians..

Here is another article closer to the times.... in 1832.

The Athenaeum: Weekly Review of English and Foreign Literature, Fine Arts ... - Page 728
by James Silk Buckingham, John Sterling, Frederick Denison Maurice, Henry Stebbing, Charles Wentworth Dilke, Thomas Kibble Hervey, William Hepworth Dixon, Norman Maccoll, Vernon Horace Rendall, John Middleton Murry - 1832


http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5166/theathenaeumweeklyreviejd5.jpg


same as above but with a better quality...


Readings in poetry: a selection from the best English poets, from Spenser to ... - Page 355
by Readings - 1843

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7157/readingsinpoetryaselectym2.jpg

Athens in the early 1800's had a population of about 5,000 people. It was a mixture of Arvanites, Greeks and Turks. We have been through this before. We even found books with percenteges and number of families belonging to each. If you think Athens was exclusively 'insert here' of any peoples, you wrong.


And the Souliotes were obviously a mixture of Greeks and Orthodox Albanians, as is most of Epirus. This is what happens when people share the same land for centuries, mixture. What matters though is what the felt, and most of it points towards being Greeks.

This is what happens when people share the same land for centuries, mixture. What matters though is what the felt, and most of it points towards being Greeks.

Of course there has been a mixture!

What upsets some of our neighbors is that those who migrated into Greece from their lands feel Greek, and even more that the Greeks and their language have existed constantly in this land for over 4000 years.

Athens in the early 1800's had a population of about 5,000 people. It was a mixture of Arvanites, Greeks and Turks. We have been through this before. We even found books with percenteges and number of families belonging to each. If you think Athens was exclusively 'insert here' of any peoples, you wrong.

In 1748 V. Agostini sent by Papal authority to spread the Catolicism in Greece wrote a letter explaining the situation to Pope:
31.August.1748 :
......I am in Athen, this dirty Albanian village, I found nowhere Greeks despite my expectation but only pagan Albanian peasants who are not interested at all about religion..(my translation)


And the Souliotes were obviously a mixture of Greeks and Orthodox Albanians, as is most of Epirus. This is what happens when people share the same land for centuries, mixture. What matters though is what the felt, and most of it points towards being Greeks.

There was no blend, they were Albanians:

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/792/suliotesbayrontq4.png

BYRON IN ALBANIAN(SULLIOTES) DRESS

Of course there has been a mixture!



Of course was no mixture, all the sources say the same Graeco-Albanians meaning Albanian-Christians.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1921/sullioteschristianhe4.png

And the Souliotes were obviously a mixture of Greeks and Orthodox Albanians, as is most of Epirus. .

No you 're obviously wrong.

The sons of the mountains are only Albanians.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3021/suliotesbayronaq6.png

Of course was no mixture, all the sources say the same Graeco-Albanians meaning Albanian-Christians.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1921/sullioteschristianhe4.png

If you'd read Sir Henry Holland's "Travels in the Ionian Isles" you'd know that in page 448, he clarifies that this is the statement of Mouchtar Aga, given to him while they were "smoking".

The sons of the mountains are only Albanians.
Don't you see the distinction in the description "DARK SULIOTES" and lets say you don't.. where these so-called "sons of the mountains" the only descendants of the Herakleides or are all "Albanians" ?

On Suli's rock, and Parga's shore,
Exists the remnant of a line
Such as the Doric mothers bore;
And there, perhaps, some seed is sown,
The Heracleidan blood might own.

If you'd read Sir Henry Holland's "Travels in the Ionian Isles" you'd know that in page 448, he clarifies that this is the statement of Mouchtar Aga, given to him while they were "smoking"..

Ok next time I will make a search before quoting an book author if he or she was "smoking" before writing a book.

Don't you see the distinction in the description "DARK SULIOTES" and lets say you don't.. where these so-called "sons of the mountains" the only descendants of the Herakleides or are all "Albanians" ?

On Suli's rock, and Parga's shore,
Exists the remnant of a line
Such as the Doric mothers bore;
And there, perhaps, some seed is sown,
The Heracleidan blood might own.

Since old times we have a testimony that Doric-Heraclides is from Illyrian stock:

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/730/pseudoskylax1fv4.png

Ok next time I will make a search before quoting an book author if he or she was "smoking" before writing a book.
The point is that its based on hearsay, and "high hearsay" if you get the point, no actual research, no anthropologic factors, nothing else included.



Since old times we have a testimony that Doric-Heraclides is from Illyrian stock:
WHERE and I do mean EXACTLY WHERE does it state that the Herakleides are Illyrian stock?

It clearly says that these barbarians of Illyrian stock claim that Herakles' son, Hyllos, settled them there, nothing about being related to him, nothing about neither him nor his father being Illyrian.. So where do you come up with this fallacy ???

WHERE and I do mean EXACTLY WHERE does it state that the Herakleides are Illyrian stock?

It clearly says that these barbarians of Illyrian stock claim that Herakles' son, Hyllos, settled them there, nothing about being related to him, nothing about neither him nor his father being Illyrian.. So where do you come up with this fallacy ???

Do you remember which was the noblest tribe of the Dorians?

Dorian tribes
Ὑλλέας , Παμφύλους , Δυμανάτας,
Hylleis, Pamphyloi, and Dymanatai.

It was HYLLEIS or HYLLIONES or BYLLIONES an ILLYRIAN TRIBE the HERACLIDES.

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4059/hylleisab7.png

Of course was no mixture, all the sources say the same Graeco-Albanians meaning Albanian-Christians.



The Ottoman Empire, 1801-1913 - Page 23
by William Miller - Eastern question (Balkan) - 1913 - 547 pages

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4562/56931324sc5.jpg

^^

Here, Miler in 1913, gave a very fair account the the Souliotes were a mix of Greeks and Hellenized (Orthodox) Albanians fighting Turks and Muslim Albanians.....

In 1748 V. Agostini sent by Papal authority to spread the Catolicism in Greece wrote a letter explaining the situation to Pope:
31.August.1748 :
......I am in Athen, this dirty Albanian village, I found nowhere Greeks despite my expectation but only pagan Albanian peasants who are not interested at all about religion..(my translation)




Ottoman Athens II

Later Ottoman Athens (1689-1821)

"He supposed the number of houses in Athens to be between twelve and thirteen hundred; of these about four hundred were inhabited by Turks, the remainder by Greeks and Albanians, the latter of whom occupied about three hundred houses. There were also seven or eight 'Frankish' families, under the protection of the French Consul. He thought the houses of the more important Athenians inferior to those of the wealthier Greeks at Ioannina or Livadia."


400 by Turks
300 by Albanians
300-400 by Greeks

http://www.anagnosis.gr/index.php?pageID=218&la=eng



The above seems more genuine than some generalizing comments.

Do you remember which was the noblest tribe of the Dorians?

Dorian tribes
Ὑλλέας , Παμφύλους , Δυμανάτας,
Hylleis, Pamphyloi, and Dymanatai.

It was HYLLEIS or HYLLIONES or BYLLIONES an ILLYRIAN TRIBE the HERACLIDES.

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4059/hylleisab7.png

Interesting but doesn't work..
One could quote Hammond in his "The Illyrian Atintani, the Epirotic Atintanes and the Roman Protectorate" where while addressing "the fallacy of supposing that the cities of northern Epirus were 'Illyrian cities',"
he states:
"There is little point in proposing an Illyrian label for cities in which the language, the institutions, the officials, the onomastics, the city-planning and the fortifications were Greek."
but I won't, I'll choose Muller's "The History and Antiquities of the Doric Race" p.13-14, who takes this Ps.Skylax quote and analyses it giving a totally new dimension to your attempt of presenting historic connections where they simply do not exist.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/1-34.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/2-5.jpg



So in short, while Ps.Skylax may provide us with info of the geography and peoples, the quote in question can by no means be titled accurate and taken seriously simply because we know that no such peninsula (peninsula = "a portion of land nearly surrounded by water and connected with a larger body by an isthmus") exists in the region (one could also question the existance of these peoples). Which proves that his account is not one which describes what he himself had seen but is simply based on mythical accounts.

Interesting but doesn't work..
One could quote Hammond in his "The Illyrian Atintani, the Epirotic Atintanes and the Roman Protectorate" where while addressing "the fallacy of supposing that the cities of northern Epirus were 'Illyrian cities',"
he states:
"There is little point in proposing an Illyrian label for cities in which the language, the institutions, the officials, the onomastics, the city-planning and the fortifications were Greek."
but I won't, I'll choose Muller's "The History and Antiquities of the Doric Race" p.13-14, who takes this Ps.Skylax quote and analyses it giving a totally new dimension to your attempt of presenting historic connections where they simply do not exist.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/1-34.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/2-5.jpg



So in short, while Ps.Skylax may provide us with info of the geography and peoples, the quote in question can by no means be titled accurate and taken seriously simply because we know that no such peninsula (peninsula = "a portion of land nearly surrounded by water and connected with a larger body by an isthmus") exists in the region (one could also question the existance of these peoples). Which proves that his account is not one which describes what he himself had seen but is simply based on mythical accounts.

1.Yes the Genuine Greeks are of Illyrian origin.

2.Mythology, all ancient history is totally based on mythology, so we must not accept or dissmiss according our interest.

1.Yes the Genuine Greeks are of Illyrian origin.

2.Mythology, all ancient history is totally based on mythology, so we must not accept or dissmiss according our interest.

LOL.. so how do you intend to address the fact that the ethnogenesis of the Illyrians happens AFTER that of the Hellenes, how do Hellenes derive from a people that didn't even exist before them ???

Mythology has proven itself to be accurate at times BUT this is not one of them since the geographic discription is totally inaccurate and there are no archeologic finds to support it.. so can you present us with the exact location of the peninsula in question or some sort of find which would ?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/1-34.jpg
.

Its not true . They are mentioned by Herodotus.

Herodotus Book 5:Terpsichore 68
τούτοισι τοῖσι οὐνόμασι τῶν φυλέων ἐχρέωντο οἱ Σικυώνιοι καὶ ἐπὶ Κλεισθένεος ἄρχοντος καὶ ἐκείνου τεθνεῶτος ἔτι ἐπ᾽ ἔτεα ἑξήκοντα· μετέπειτα μέντοι λόγον σφίσι δόντες μετέβαλον ἐς τοὺς Ὑλλέας καὶ Παμφύλους καὶ Δυμανάτας, τετάρτους δὲ αὐτοῖσι προσέθεντο ἐπὶ τοῦ Ἀδρήστου παιδὸς Αἰγιαλέος τὴν ἐπωνυμίην ποιεύμενοι κεκλῆσθαι Αἰγιαλέας.

If you consider Herodotus as an exclusive mythological writer yes, but then you have to overturn all the stories told by him about Hellenes.

Its not true . They are mentioned by Herodotus.

Herodotus Book 5:Terpsichore 68
τούτοισι τοῖσι οὐνόμασι τῶν φυλέων ἐχρέωντο οἱ Σικυώνιοι καὶ ἐπὶ Κλεισθένεος ἄρχοντος καὶ ἐκείνου τεθνεῶτος ἔτι ἐπ᾽ ἔτεα ἑξήκοντα· μετέπειτα μέντοι λόγον σφίσι δόντες μετέβαλον ἐς τοὺς Ὑλλέας καὶ Παμφύλους καὶ Δυμανάτας, τετάρτους δὲ αὐτοῖσι προσέθεντο ἐπὶ τοῦ Ἀδρήστου παιδὸς Αἰγιαλέος τὴν ἐπωνυμίην ποιεύμενοι κεκλῆσθαι Αἰγιαλέας.

If you consider Herodotus as an exclusive mythological writer yes, but then you have to overturn all the stories told by him about Hellenes.

Actually Herodotus is refering to a mythical event, but in either way, its accuracy is irrelevent, based on the following... Σικυώνιοι = Sicyonians, do you know where Sicyon was situated?

LOL.. so how do you intend to address the fact that the ethnogenesis of the Illyrians happens AFTER that of the Hellenes, how do Hellenes derive from a people that didn't even exist before them ???


How come?
Hellenes (beside mythological Hellen) were called only the Dorians which mythological story shows coming from Illyria.
All the rest Danaioi and Mycenai and Achaeans, and Athenians were all Pelasgians.

Actually Herodotus is refering to a mythical event, but in either way, its accuracy is irrelevent, based on the following... Σικυώνιοι = Sicyonians, do you know where Sicyon was situated?

Sicyon north Peloponnesus between Corinth and Achaea.
Yes the Dorians and Heraclides were marching toward south of it(it took a long time though)

How come?
Hellenes (beside mythological Hellen) were called only the Dorians which mythological story shows coming from Illyria.
All the rest Danaioi and Mycenai and Achaeans, and Athenians were all Pelasgians.

How about preseting a source which places the homeland of the Dorians anywhere else than Mt.Oeta or do you read Herodotus selectively and thus missed 1.57, where he mentions that the Pelasgoi when in Thessaly were their neighbors ?

Sicyon north Peloponnesus between Corinth and Achaea.
Yes the Dorians and Heraclides were marching toward south of it(it took a long time though)

The Sycionians became Dorians, they never were originally part of them, see Pausanias 2.7

This is absolutely ridiculous. Show me any evidence of an Illyrian influence in the Dorian dialect. None what so ever! Show me any evidence of Illyrian settlements Doric cities! NONE! The Dorians where Greeks from Epirus. Plain and simple. They bordered the Illyrians. Plain and simple.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Show me any evidence of an Illyrian influence in the Dorian dialect. None what so ever! Show me any evidence of Illyrian settlements Doric cities! NONE! The Dorians where Greeks from Epirus. Plain and simple. They bordered the Illyrians. Plain and simple.

How many words you know in Illyrian language?
How could you compare an unknown language(Illyrian) with an unknown DEAD language like Doric.

How many words you know in Illyrian language?
How could you compare an unknown language(Illyrian) with an unknown DEAD language like Doric.

Man you're priceless.. so now, since the fact that its a dialect of Hellenic doesn't suit your stupid theories.. Doric became a language !!!

Man you're priceless.. so now, since the fact that its a dialect of Hellenic doesn't suit your stupid theories.. Doric became a language !!!

every dialect is a language itself and Doric is an unknown dead LANGUAGE.

Man you're priceless.. so now, since the fact that its a dialect of Hellenic doesn't suit your stupid theories.. Doric became a language !!!

as for you :

Strabo 008.001.002

the Dorians too, since they were few in number and lived in a most rugged country, have, because of their lack of intercourse with others, changed their speech and their other customs to the extent that they are no longer a part of the same tribe as before. And this was precisely the case with the Athenians

How many words you know in Illyrian language?
How could you compare an unknown language(Illyrian) with an unknown DEAD language like Doric.

Illyrian is a dead language with several known terms, names and the likes. We know enough that linguistics call it an Indo European language separate from Greek. We also have TONS of evidence on Doric. Literally thousands of inscriptions in Doric!:laugh:

So your assumption that Doric is a dead language is ludicrous. It is a branch of Greek well attested, and a variant still survives today in the form of Tsakonian....

:dry:

Here is a lesson for you about the Greek dialects from Jonathan Hall..

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9019/jonathanhallgreekdialecmi8.jpg

Illyrian is a dead language with several known terms, names and the likes. We know enough that linguistics call it an Indo European language separate from Greek. We also have TONS of evidence on Doric. Literally thousands of inscriptions in Doric!:laugh:

So your assumption that Doric is a dead language is ludicrous. It is a branch of Greek well attested, and a variant still survives today in the form of Tsakonian....



And again I dont need your endless useless scaned pages of useless western scholars.
The truth is we dont know if the Illyrian is dead or not, but few words of it show a striking similarity with Albanian:

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/9891/illyrianalbanianwordaq5.png

We dont know if the Tsakonian is a Doric dialect survivor. What we know for sure is that even very badly influenced from the modern Greek it is not intellegible for a common modern greek.

And again I dont need your endless useless scaned pages of useless western scholars.


Is that your come back! Useless western scholars!:clapping: Wow!:dry:


The truth is we dont know if the Illyrian is dead or not, but few words of it show a striking similarity with Albanian:

Possibly, but more likely Albanian is a mixture of Illyrian and Dacian.

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/9891/illyrianalbanianwordaq5.png



We dont know if the Tsakonian is a Doric dialect survivor. What we know for sure is that even very badly influenced from the modern Greek it is not intellegible for a common modern greek.:huh:

Modern Greek is the direct ancestor of ancient Greek whether you like it or not:p

as for you motershkerdhyer:

Strabo 008.001.002

the Dorians too, since they were few in number and lived in a most rugged country, have, because of their lack of intercourse with others, changed their speech and their other customs to the extent that they are no longer a part of the same tribe as before. And this was precisely the case with the Athenians

Why don't you give us the whole text! Stabo was referring to the fact that he believed the Dorian dialect was a branch of Aeolic! No mention of Illyrian!!!:clap2:

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/4470/stabodorianspg2.jpg

Possibly, but more likely Albanian is a mixture of Illyrian and Dacian.]
How many words you know in Albanian?
What is the meaning of
trushplaremendjepjerdhur



Modern Greek is the direct ancestor of ancient Greek whether you like it or not:p

If you say so , you must have been there hearing them.



Why don't you give us the whole text! Stabo was referring to the fact that he believed the Dorian dialect was a branch of Aeolic! No mention of Illyrian!!!


When Strabo says:

The Dorians changed their speech and their other customs to the extent that they are no longer a part of the same tribe as before..
that means that they adopted another language or another Pelasgian dialect and possibly the Danaic an Egyptian-semitic idiom.

Modern Greek is the direct ancestor of ancient Greek whether you like it or not


If so you must be dead now.

If so you must be dead now.

Since I know the modern Greek language, I can also understand some ancient Greek. It is a direct descendant of it. The language today of course has changed, but not as much as say Shakespearian English has changed from modern English, in a much shorter time span.


http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/linguistics/pie2.gif


Albanian has nothing to do with ancient Greek. Sorry:p

The Modern Greek Language in Its Relation to Ancient Greek
By Edmund Martin Geldart

http://books.google.com/books?id=PhAJAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=modern+greek+language&lr=&client=firefox-a#PPR9,M1

as for you motershkerdhyer:

Strabo 008.001.002

the Dorians too, since they were few in number and lived in a most rugged country, have, because of their lack of intercourse with others, changed their speech and their other customs to the extent that they are no longer a part of the same tribe as before. And this was precisely the case with the Athenians

So little one, after your continuous selective quotations, you know start posting insults that you'd never dare utter in front of me (for those interested look at insultmonger's thesaurus) in your own grunt since you can't handle facing reality, which is that your unhistoric claims, which are driven by your inferiority complex, are continuously being trashed !!!!
While I'd honestly love to see your sorry arse banned, I'm a sucker for fools like you so I'll let it pass this time.

Many thnaks to chicagogeorge for wasting his valuable time to teach you history while I was out drinking retsina and watching the match.

How many words you know in Albanian?
What is the meaning of
trushplaremendjepjerdhur


I know none. That's why I read what linguists have to say on the matter.




If you say so , you must have been there hearing them.

I didn't have to be there hearing them. I could read the inscriptions that they left behind. Something you cannot do!:p



When Strabo says:

The Dorians changed their speech and their other customs to the extent that they are no longer a part of the same tribe as before..
that means that they adopted another language or another Pelasgian dialect and possibly the Danaic an Egyptian-semitic idiom.

Are you reading the same Strabo as I am? Where in the world does he mention that Dorians adopted Pelasgian Danaic or Egyptian from the passage that we both quoted? (Me in it's entirety, and you selectively) :clap2:

So little one, after your continuous selective quotations, you know start posting insults that you'd never dare utter in front of me (for those interested look at insultmonger's thesaurus) in your own grunt since you can't handle facing reality, which is that your unhistoric claims, which are driven by your inferiority complex, are continuously being trashed !!!!.

Yeah its just a little passage but breaks down all your barking



While I'd honestly love to see your sorry arse banned, I'm a sucker for fools like you so I'll let it pass this time..

I know I know you are toooo desperate thats why.


Many thnaks to chicagogeorge for wasting his valuable time to teach you history while I was out drinking retsina and watching the match.

I will never offend chicagogeorge because his attitude is different from yours.

I know none. That's why I read what linguists have to say on the matter.

Show me a linguist who knows both Albanian and Illyrian and says that Albanian doesnt come from the Illyrian.

Just one.

Show me a linguist who knows both Albanian and Illyrian and says that Albanian doesnt come from the Illyrian.

Just one.



You do realize that Albanian is a Centum language and Illyrian is a Satem right? That alone throws a monkey wrench into the direct relationship of the two. This is why the alternative theory of a Illyrian/Dacian mix is proposed.

Yeah its just a little passage but breaks down all your barking
What passage are you talking about?
Do you actually understand what you're quoting?

I know I know you are toooo desperate thats why.
Desperate?
Nah, I simply know that your one of albania.com's top inferiority complexed fools, so I'd love to see all your trash theories taken apart. Its that simple really.


I will never offend chicagogeorge because his attitude is different from yours.
Attitude?
All I'll just say is that based on the you crap posted, the attitude that should change is yours.

Now lets try to get back on topic and read some more of your unhistoric claims.

Lets not mix threads. This is about the Souliotes. Here is a book from 1856 by
Archibald Alison.

It is clear that the inhabitants who were known as the Souliotes were Greek speaking and had Greek sentiments as they fought for Greek independence.:clapping:

http://books.google.com/books?id=QjpJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA136&dq=Souliotes&client=firefox-a

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1193/byarchibaldalison1856zl7.jpg

You do realize that Albanian is a Centum language and Illyrian is a Satem right? That alone throws a monkey wrench into the direct relationship of the two. This is why the alternative theory of a Illyrian/Dacian mix is proposed.

What Centum and Satem you are talking about?
Wasnt you saying that we have saved so little from Illyrian that it is impossible to determine if it is Albanian or not?
Now how could you determine it is Centum if you have so less iformation available.?

You do realize that Albanian is a Centum language and Illyrian is a Satem right? .

As for your information, most of the time the linguists is classifiyng the Albanian as a Satem language not a Centum.

As for your information, most of the time the linguists is classifiyng the Albanian as a Satem language not a Centum.

Yes I had them reversed. oops! Albanian is Satem, and what we know of Illyrian the evidence suggest that it is Centum like Greek.




http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8028/albaniansatemillyriancecl8.jpg

Yes I had them reversed. oops! Albanian is Satem, and what we know of Illyrian the evidence suggest that it is Centum like Greek.

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8028/albaniansatemillyriancecl8.jpg
Ok show me why Illyrian is a Centum?

Ok show me why Illyrian is a Centum?

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/156/18869896zo8.jpg

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/156/18869896zo8.jpg

I know that, but show me why is Centum?

I know that, but show me why is Centum?

I'm not a linguist, I just read what the linguist say :)

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/8777/wilkeszs7.jpg

I'm not a linguist, I just read what the linguist say :)

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/8777/wilkeszs7.jpg

If so step aside.

If so step aside.


Ok mr smarty pants I'll listen to you, who roams the discussion boards and not to accredited scholars educated at Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge......:clap2:


http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/7563/archaeologyandlangaugeof2.jpg

Ok mr smarty pants I'll listen to you, who roams the discussion boards and not to accredited scholars educated at Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge......:clap2:

Jorgo are you missing an insult?

No insults (unlike you telling me to step aside), I don't claim to know. just read books that present evidence :)

So far the score is 4 to 0. I presented 4 sources showing that Illyrian is Centum and Albanian is Satem, you have shown me 0 sources telling me otherwise.:p

No insults (unlike you telling me to step aside), I don't claim to know. just read books that present evidence :)

So far the score is 4 to 0. I presented 4 sources showing that Illyrian is Centum and Albanian is Satem, you have shown me 0 sources telling me otherwise.:p

Step aside wasnt bad meaning. Its meaning was you cant disscus any more on something you are not capable to prove.

As for the scores, you brought only evidences that some linguists think Illyrian is Centum but you never brought why.

Well let me tell you about this.
Nothing is known about labiovelars, palatovelars and velars in Illyrian language because lack of literature.

Even the centum-satem divisions is based in a theory that is never proved to be true.

As for the scores, you brought only evidences that some linguists think Illyrian is Centum but you never brought why.

Well let me tell you about this.
Nothing is known about labiovelars, palatovelars and velars in Illyrian language because lack of literature.
If so little is known about Illyrian, how can you be so confident that it is an older form of Albanian? You're just making politically motivated speculation.
Even the centum-satem divisions is based in a theory that is never proved to be true.
Creationists say that evolution is also "just a theory never proven to be true".

Step aside wasnt bad meaning.

It sounded demeaning.



Its meaning was you cant disscus any more on something you are not capable to prove.

So we can't discuss the existing evidence even if it's scanty?


As for the scores, you brought only evidences that some linguists think Illyrian is Centum but you never brought why.

Within the evidence they say why. Read it fully please.


Well let me tell you about this.
Nothing is known about labiovelars, palatovelars and velars in Illyrian language because lack of literature.

So in your opinion based on the lack of evidence we can't tell if Illyrian is Albanian right?;)


Even the centum-satem divisions is based in a theory that is never proved to be true.

This is true. There is still a lot of debate on centum-satem. From what I have been reading, but has still withstood the test of time, and is accepted by most Indo European linguists.

This book from 1877 tells us how Markos Botzaris was fighting 6000 Albanians before his death!:clapping: And that Turkish horseman surprised the Greeks, the Souliotes fought to the last man reminiscent of the 300:clap2:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8984/souliotes7jj4.jpg


and another British account from 1822, of the Souliotes fighting the Turks and being recognized as Greeks:clap2:


http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/1539/souli1822ed8.jpg

This book from 1877 tells us how Markos Botzaris was fighting 6000 Albanians before his death!:clapping: And that Turkish horseman surprised the Greeks, the Souliotes fought to the last man reminiscent of the 300:clap2:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8984/souliotes7jj4.jpg


and another British account from 1822, of the Souliotes fighting the Turks and being recognized as Greeks:clap2:


http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/1539/souli1822ed8.jpg

Many, many , many pages to prove that Sulliotes were Greeks.
When the authors use the term Greeks, it means just CHRISTIANS because these {Greeks} didnt know how to speak......Greek.

Taken from a website very antagonist with Albanian nacionalism:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8386/suliotesdontknowhg8.png

This is the Dictionary:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6600/fjalorigreqishtshqipcu0.jpg

Many, many , many pages to prove that Sulliotes were Greeks.
When the authors use the term Greeks, it means just CHRISTIANS because these {Greeks} didnt know how to speak......Greek.

Taken from a website very antagonist with Albanian nacionalism:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8386/suliotesdontknowhg8.png

This is ridiculous. Botsaris spoke Greek and fought along side other Greeks. The Souliotes and the surrounding area were ethnically mixed Greeks and Christian Albanians. This is ridiculous to assert that Botsaris did not speak Greek. Ali Pasha and most Albanians living in Epirus spoke Greek, because that was the dominant language! Markos Botsaris fought for Greek independence because he felt Greek! He was Greek!:mad:

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1020/themuslimbonapartediplozr3.jpg

Many, many , many pages to prove that Sulliotes were Greeks.
When the authors use the term Greeks, it means just CHRISTIANS because these {Greeks} didnt know how to speak......Greek.

Taken from a website very antagonist with Albanian nacionalism:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8386/suliotesdontknowhg8.png

As always another great source by helios, this one signed by the reknowned historian "Loulou" :clapping:

How about explaining the existance of correspondance between Tzavelas and Ali Pasha written in Hellenic... did they have translators that composed these letters and if so, why the hell use translators since we know that Ali was beyond doubt an Albanian and as you and your source both claim, the Souliotes didn't know Hellenic?.. wouldn't it be far easier to simply write them in Albanian ?

An American travel to Messolonghi to meet with Marko Botsaris' widow and children in 1839. The American mentions their Grecian beauty of his wife and daughters. Interestingly the American was happy that they new how to speak French since the Americans did not understand their language. I wonder what language those Americans could not understand in Greece:clap2:

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/7991/marcosbazzarisfamilyhs1.jpg

This is ridiculous. Botsaris spoke Greek and fought along side other Greeks. The Souliotes and the surrounding area were ethnically mixed Greeks and Christian Albanians. This is ridiculous to assert that Botsaris did not speak Greek. Ali Pasha and most Albanians living in Epirus spoke Greek, because that was the dominant language! Markos Botsaris fought for Greek independence because he felt Greek! He was Greek!:mad:


Of course Boçari spoke greek, but he was the only among the Sulliotes who knows it. Thats why he created the dictionary, to help the other Sulliotes to learn Greek, which for some strange reasons didnt know to.

Of course Boçari spoke greek, but he was the only among the Sulliotes who knows it. Thats why he created the dictionary, to help the other Sulliotes to learn Greek, which for some strange reasons didnt know to.

Why don't you ever respond to the countless eyewitness accounts and scholarly books that I post? The book above called the Muslim Bonaparte tells s the Albanians and Turks for the most part new how to speak Greek in Epirus ( I underlined it last sentence bottom of page 65).

You first say that the Souliotes were Albanians. I have brought evidence which shows that the Souliotes were essentially Greeks with a mix of Albanian Orthodox Christians (as was most of Epirus).

Here is more proof.

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/2855/souliotesspeakgreekrd0.jpg

Why don't you ever respond to the countless eyewitness accounts and scholarly books that I post?

Because others opinion is not an evidence.
Also your quote is not saying that Sulliotes were Greek-speakers.

But since you insist I have my sources too:

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/1003/yaninacapital4ft7.png

or another one:
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8247/yaninacapital1aq1.png

or another one:

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9985/sulliotes4nw4.png

If that is not enough for you read here: See what F.P. Caillard had to say about the Epirotes (and the Souliotes) in 1885 and what Dr. E.J. Dillan said in 1903.:clap2:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5484/journalofracedevelopemesd9.jpg

you want more?

here you go
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3196/sulliotescaptainpx2.png

If that is not enough for you read here: See what F.P. Caillard had to say about the Epirotes (and the Souliotes) in 1885 and what Dr. E.J. Dillan said in 1903.:clap2:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5484/journalofracedevelopemesd9.jpg

save your endless worthless pages to understand why they were called Greeks. You have the conclusive answer here:

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3916/sulliotesnotgreekip3.png

you are not pleased enough,
coming more:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/6919/sulliotes5ay5.png

have you had enough??
one more for today

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1958/sulliotes6xh2.png

Because others opinion is not an evidence.
Also your quote is not saying that Sulliotes were Greek-speakers.

But since you insist I have my sources too:

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/1003/yaninacapital4ft7.png
^^
This source only places Epirus as part of Albania which at the time of Ali Pasha it was.;)

The quote that I posed is from that time period and it clearly states that the revolution spread to where the Greek tongue was spoken and where Greek feelings were cherished, and they include the Souliotes.

or another one:
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8247/yaninacapital1aq1.png

This quote says nothing of the Souilotes backgroud, only that the Albanian army is in Yanina, and that Ali Pasha ruled it.;)

or another one:

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9985/sulliotes4nw4.png

You forgot to give the source of this book, but it is obviously a modern book. It does call the Souliotes Albanian Christians and I agree. Many were, but many were ethnic Greeks as well. And they ALL SPOKE AND FELT GREEK.

you want more?

here you go
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3196/sulliotescaptainpx2.png

Is there a source here? What is the name of this book?

save your endless worthless pages to understand why they were called Greeks. You have the conclusive answer here:

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3916/sulliotesnotgreekip3.png

Ok, I searhced for this passage from Leake on google books and that page was not given. What source did you get this page from?


Also you said this:

Many, many , many pages to prove that Sulliotes were Greeks.
When the authors use the term Greeks, it means just CHRISTIANS because these {Greeks} didnt know how to speak......Greek.

No your own image above claims that the Souliotes spoke Albanian and Greek. So:p

Because others opinion is not an evidence.
Also your quote is not saying that Sulliotes were Greek-speakers.

But since you insist I have my sources too:

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/1003/yaninacapital4ft7.png

WHERE does it say they are Albanians?
Don't you know that during Ali Pasha's rule the region was incorporated into his Albania, Albanian ruler during the Ottoman empire doesn't mean that the population was Albanian.. its similar to saying that the entire population of the Ottoman empire was ethnic Turks.

Anyway, this one clears the mix up among western scholars.


Penny cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful published 1842

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/Pennycyclopaedia.jpg



Why did we see them use elements from both peoples?
Simple:

The new American cyclopædia published 1862

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/ThenewAmericancyclopdia.jpg




But do explain, why do you Albanians show such interest in people that didn't care about your country.. lets say for the sake of argument that you prove they were Albanians (which they were NOT), whats it to you, what do you gain, why would you care about a people that loathed you and never faught for your country but for the liberty of Hellas ?

Sorry Orphic:)

You beat me to the punch with that book. So I'll edit myself and post this:clap2:

Here in Byron's works we clearly see the Souliotes and the other Greeks, further down we see Byron with Souliote guards and Greek interperters and further down he is separating the Souliotes and the Albanians.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4458/byronselectionssoulioteis1.jpg

WHERE

Anyway, this one clears the mix up among western scholars.


Penny cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful published 1842

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/Pennycyclopaedia.jpg



Why did we see them use elements from both peoples?

From YOUR BOOOK.

For the sake of the argument, read carrefully:

THE ORAL LANGUAGE IS ALBANIAN
THE GREEK LANGUAGE IS USED ONLY FOR WRITING

which means:
ALBANIAN WAS THEIR NATURAL LANGUAGE
while
GREEK IS USED FOR WRITING ONLY

That means
THEY WERE ALBANIANS

But do explain, why do you Albanians show such interest in people that didn't care about your country.. lets say for the sake of argument that you prove they were Albanians (which they were NOT), whats it to you, what do you gain, why would you care about a people that loathed you and never faught for your country but for the liberty of Hellas ?

The Sulliotes are now exterminated, they dont exist anymore.
We do not simply show interest, WE CHECK OUR ROOTS, like every nation does, including the Greeks.

From YOUR BOOOK.

For the sake of the argument, read carrefully:

THE ORAL LANGUAGE IS ALBANIAN
THE GREEK LANGUAGE IS USED ONLY FOR WRITING

which means:
ALBANIAN WAS THEIR NATURAL LANGUAGE
while
GREEK IS USED FOR WRITING ONLY

That means
THEY WERE ALBANIANS
It means that you have no idea what you're talking about nor do you pay any attention to what has been posted in the topic.
Read the quote (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/81674-post13.html) from the book your compatriot posted:

Speaking Albanian, for example, is not a predictor with respect to other matters of identity.



The Sulliotes are now exterminated, they dont exist anymore.
We do not simply show interest, WE CHECK OUR ROOTS, like every nation does, including the Greeks.

Exterminated... yeah right.. So no living descendants, that suits you.. but lets say that some do exist (which THEY DO) what are they in your book.. Hellenes or Albanians ??

Speaking Albanian, for example, is not a predictor with respect to other matters of identity.

The most powerful indication to define people ethnicity is THE MOTHER TONGUE. With plenty of evidences it is CONCLUSIVE that HOME ORAL language of the Sulliotes was Albanian.
This is not a debatable issue.
SULLIOTES ARE ALBANIANS.


Exterminated... yeah right.. So no living descendants, that suits you.. but lets say that some do exist (which THEY DO) what are they in your book.. Hellenes or Albanians ??

No it doesnt suit me at all. I dont even care how Sulliotes would be felt if they were alive.
One thing I can say for sure. Sulliotes were Albanians by blood and Greek by religion.

All of you dont forget:
These formidable warriors who fought for Hellas were mostly from ALBANIAN BLOOD.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3217/albanianofepirushz6.png

that HOME ORAL language of the Sulliotes was Albanian.
This is not a debatable issue.
SULLIOTES ARE ALBANIANS.

.

It's not:rolleyes:



The Ottoman Empire, 1801-1913 - Page 23
by William Miller - Eastern question (Balkan) - 1913 - 547 pages


http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4562/56931324sc5.jpg

All of you dont forget:
These formidable warriors who fought for Hellas were mostly from ALBANIAN BLOOD.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3217/albanianofepirushz6.pngQUOTE]

I laugh:clap2:

Actually I'm insulted.:mad:


People who fought for Greek independence were Greek because they felt Greek just like people who fought for Albanian indepedence were Albanian because they felt Albanian.

The most powerful indication to define people ethnicity is THE MOTHER TONGUE. With plenty of evidences it is CONCLUSIVE that HOME ORAL language of the Sulliotes was Albanian.
This is not a debatable issue.
SULLIOTES ARE ALBANIANS.

"I say so" means NOTHING in any historic debate..
Mother tongue can not be applied as an indicator when we're discussing multi-ethnic environments and that is exactly what the Ottoman empire was, a multi-ethnic environment which included a multitude of ethnicities and languages.
A similar claim would be that the "Romaniotes", who are ethnic Jews that have lived in Hellas for centuries if not more, are ethnically Hellenes since their language, Yevanika, is Hellenic with some minor influence from Hebrew or does Hellenic now become the language which everyone adopted and thus shouldn't be considered an indicator?




No it doesnt suit me at all. I dont even care how Sulliotes would be felt if they were alive.
One thing I can say for sure. Sulliotes were Albanians by blood and Greek by religion.

You're contradicting your own claims.. from "ARE" which means they still are, just like they always were, you go on to say "IF they were alive".. But its not about what their descendants fell today, but what they felt in the 1800's.

While you again return to the same rhetoric of "I say so" you conveniently forgot that we've already presented you with documentation, documentation which made you claim absurdities like that Doric wasn't a Hellenic dialect...etc and I'm not talking about some 20th century scholar but their own words, (see reference to Tzavelas' letter) that they were Hellenes, or as you'd claim, felt, and that their sole interest was the liberation of Hellas and not Albania. Actually they didn't even acknowledge such a nation (see letter of Tzavelas) all they saw was Hellas.

"I say so" means NOTHING in any historic debate..
Mother tongue can not be applied as an indicator when we're discussing multi-ethnic environments and that is exactly what the Ottoman empire was, a multi-ethnic environment which included a multitude of ethnicities and languages.
A similar claim would be that the "Romaniotes", who are ethnic Jews that have lived in Hellas for centuries if not more, are ethnically Hellenes since their language, Yevanika, is Hellenic with some minor influence from Hebrew or does Hellenic now become the language which everyone adopted and thus shouldn't be considered an indicator?

You're contradicting your own claims.. from "ARE" which means they still are, just like they always were, you go on to say "IF they were alive".. But its not about what their descendants fell today, but what they felt in the 1800's.

While you again return to the same rhetoric of "I say so" you conveniently forgot that we've already presented you with documentation, documentation which made you claim absurdities like that Doric wasn't a Hellenic dialect...etc and I'm not talking about some 20th century scholar but their own words, (see reference to Tzavelas' letter) that they were Hellenes, or as you'd claim, felt, and that their sole interest was the liberation of Hellas and not Albania. Actually they didn't even acknowledge such a nation (see letter of Tzavelas) all they saw was Hellas.

Too much coming around.
The important thing is that you admited SULLIOTES WERE ALBANIANS and their mother tongue was ALBANIAN.

Too much coming around.
The important thing is that you admited SULLIOTES WERE ALBANIANS and their mother tongue was ALBANIAN.

Firstly little troll I never said that they were Albanians so stop distorting my words, like you do the texts you can't comprehend.

Secondly what you title an indicator, as already explained can NOT be applied here, since in multi-ethnic/multilinguial societies mother-tongue is non-tracable... beside the previous example I provided, another good one is to say that you're claiming that because the Ottomans wrote in Persian and Arabic and spoke a bit of Turkish beside the prementioned two, (prior to Kemal's Sun theory) they were ethnic Persians and Arabs.

Finally, what they WERE/ARE is clarified in Tzavelas' letter, so when you're able to contradict their own beliefs, their own words, only then will you have any right to claim connection to them.

Firstly little troll I never said that they were Albanians so stop distorting my words, like you do the texts you can't comprehend.

Secondly what you title an indicator, as already explained can NOT be applied here, since in multi-ethnic/multilinguial societies mother-tongue is non-tracable... beside the previous example I provided, another good one is to say that you're claiming that because the Ottomans wrote in Persian and Arabic and spoke a bit of Turkish beside the prementioned two, (prior to Kemal's Sun theory) they were ethnic Persians and Arabs.

Finally, what they WERE/ARE is clarified in Tzavelas' letter, so when you're able to contradict their own beliefs, their own words, only then will you have any right to claim connection to them.

You huge supertroll I must say that SULI was not a multi-ethnic/multilingual place. It was one language and blood ALBANIAN.

You huge supertroll I must say that SULI was not a multi-ethnic/multilingual place. It was one language and blood ALBANIAN.

No, you are the supertroll. Everyone hear has answered you with sources. What is it that you provide? Do we have another brilliant balkanite in here whose peasant gradfather gave them an oral history?

You huge supertroll I must say that SULI was not a multi-ethnic/multilingual place. It was one language and blood ALBANIAN.

Again you prove incompotent of comprehending simple meanings.

Troll = a newsgroup post that is deliberately incorrect, intended to provoke readers; or a person who makes such a post

So your above claim that I suggested that the Suliotes were Albanian as was their "mother-tongue" is by definition the act of a troll.

Anyway... judging from the evidence provided in this thread, we may safely conclude that there were both Hellenic and Albanian populations residing in the region, thus making it a multi-ethnic/multilingual region. BUT these populations indifferent of their ancestral origins clearly defined themselves as Hellenes and that this identification was not religious.

So can you provide us with an explanation as to why, the (according to you) purely Albanians in ethnic origin and speech would claim that their lands are Hellenic and that they are Hellenes?
YES OR NO ?

Again you prove incompotent of comprehending simple meanings.

Troll = a newsgroup post that is deliberately incorrect, intended to provoke readers; or a person who makes such a post

So your above claim that I suggested that the Suliotes were Albanian as was their "mother-tongue" is by definition the act of a troll.

Anyway... judging from the evidence provided in this thread, we may safely conclude that there were both Hellenic and Albanian populations residing in the region, thus making it a multi-ethnic/multilingual region. BUT these populations indifferent of their ancestral origins clearly defined themselves as Hellenes and that this identification was not religious.

So can you provide us with an explanation as to why, the (according to you) purely Albanians in ethnic origin and speech would claim that their lands are Hellenic and that they are Hellenes?
YES OR NO ?

You may conclude whatever you want or fits your interest.
But the reality is not up to you, its independent.
You just try to distort it but with scarce results.

You may conclude whatever you want or fits your interest.
But the reality is not up to you, its independent.
You just try to distort it but with scarce results.

I posted a question,

So can you provide us with an explanation as to why, the (according to you) purely Albanians in ethnic origin and speech would claim that their lands are Hellenic and that they are Hellenes?
YES OR NO ?

you either respond to it or stop flooding the thread with irrelevent trash. Your next post that isn't a direct responce will be deleted :mad:

I posted a question,


you either respond to it or stop flooding the thread with irrelevent trash. Your next post that isn't a direct responce will be deleted :mad:

Its any forum rule that says I must answer your questions?

Its any forum rule that says I must answer your questions?
It's a forum rule that you mustn't troll. If you're not here to debate but to parrot your homemade fringe theories, please leave.