A philosophy question - Help appreciated!!!

[Flipper]

Ok, i need some help with a quote that has troubled me a lot...

What would you think if someone out of the blue told you "Your perfection will be your downfall"?

Is ones "perfection" (as seen from anothers point of view) a lack?

Is it a virtue when kept for him/herself and a curse when shared with others?

Is it really ones problem or a reflection of the other persons problem(s)?



Your thoughts on this would be valuable for me.

Thanks!



PS: Note that perfection is relative from person to person. I'm not suggesting that the person receiving that comment believes is perfect.

[Truth Bearer]

Maybe yr too perfect to be human.

[Euklid]

Homer declared:

"The first step to failure is trying".

The Hindus and the Zen Masters have a code of conduct similar to that of Homer.

They basically urge the Humans to not use language, to not speak, to allow their instinct to take over the logic. To not try to be perfect, but to allow the mind find perfection without tryin cause trying is the self and the ego trying and that way perfection cannot be achieved.

The First Principle:

When one goes to Obaku temple in Kyoto he sees carved over the gate the words "The First Principle". The letters are unusually large, and those who appreciate calligraphy always admire them as being a mastepiece. They were drawn by Kosen two hundred years ago.

When the master drew them he did so on paper, from which the workmen made the large carving in wood. As Kosen sketched the letters a bold pupil was with him who had made several gallons of ink for the calligraphy and who never failed to criticise his master's work.

"That is not good," he told Kosen after his first effort.

"How is this one?"

"Poor. Worse than before," pronounced the pupil.

Kosen patiently wrote one sheet after another until eighty-four First Principles had accumulated, still without the approval of the pupil.

Then when the young man stepped outside for a few moments, Kosen thought: "Now this is my chance to escape his keen eye," and he wrote hurriedly, with a mind free from distraction: "The First Principle."

"A masterpiece," pronounced the pupil.

source (http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/19thefirstprinciple.html)

The Great WAVES:

8. Great Waves

In the early days of the Meiji era there lived a well-known wrestler called O-nami, Great Waves.

O-nami was immensely strong and knew the art of wrestling. In his private bouts he defeated even his teacher, but in public he was so bashful that his own pupils threw him.

O-nami felt he should go to a Zen master for help. Hakuju, a wandering teacher, was stopping in a little temple nearby, so O-nami went to see him and told him of his trouble.

"Great Waves is your name," the teacher advised, "so stay in this temple tonight. Imagine that you are those billows. You are no longer a wrestler who is afraid. You are those huge waves sweeping everything before them, swallowing all in their path. Do this and you will be the greatest wrestler in the land."

The teacher retired. O-nami sat in meditation trying to imagine himself as waves. He thought of many different things. Then gradually he turned more and more to the feeling of the waves. As the night advanced the waves became larger and larger. They swept away the flowers in their vases. Even the Buddha in the shrine was inundated. Before dawn the temple was nothing but the ebb and flow of an immense sea.

In the morning the teacher found O-nami meditating, a faint smile on his face. He patted the wrestler's shoulder. "Now nothing can disturb you," he said. "You are those waves. You will sweep everything before you."

The same day O-nami entered the wrestling contests and won. After that, no one in Japan was able to defeat him.

Kazantzakis:

"Ερχομαστε απο μια σκοτεινη αβυσσο
Καταληγουμε σε μια σκοτεινη αβυσσο
Το μεταξυ διαστημα το ονομαζουμε ζειν"


Το ζειν ειναι ζεν και το ζεν επιβάλλει την ελευθερία, ελευθερια του πνευματος απο την προσπαθεια της μετριας λογικης δια την επιτευξη της τελειοτητας.

Τελειοι ειμαστε εκ φυσεως, οταν λοιπον επιτρεψουμε στην τελειοτητα μας να κερδισει τον ατελη εαυτο και εγω μας, τοτε μονο το ζειν αποκταει νοημα εξω απο τα περιθωρια που επιβαλει η κοινη λογικη. Τοτε μονο αγγιζουμε εστω για μια στιγμη και μόνο το ειναι.

101. Buddha's Zen

Buddha said: "I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."

[Flipper]

Thanks!
All these are good. I need to take a closer look when i'm at home. However, do they answer why ones perfection (as seen from a third person) is his/hers downfall?

As for Homer...Does he tell us to not try?

Failure becomes knowledge. If you don't fail you don't learn. If you don't try, you achieve nothing.

[Euklid]

As for Homer...Does he tell us to not try?

Maybe we can replace the term "try" with the term "struggle".

However, do they answer why ones perfection (as seen from a third person) is his/hers downfall?


Perfection is not subjective but objective.

If a third person sees your perfection as imperfect, then in most certainty means that there is no perfection to begin with.

Failure becomes knowledge. If you don't fail you don't learn. If you don't try, you achieve nothing.

What if you try to not try/struggle? What happens then?

[Flipper]

Perfection is not subjective but objective.

If a third person sees your perfection as imperfect, then in most certainty means that there is no perfection to begin with.



To start with the receiving person does not know about the perfection seen by the other part. The other part sees a perfection but that view is not an objective view. Maybe the lack of errors makes it unreal/mysterious/unknown to the other part. I have no clue about this...In any case this can be like taste in art. You might not like straight lines or "perfect circles" but crooked lines and elipses.



What if you try to not try? What happens then?

Things may come natural you would think. Maybe you would believe it is you luck. But luck is just an excuse for not being able to explain occurencies in chaos. The idea of trying might be what makes it difficult for you. To succeed with something you have to lay a brick yourself. Thinking about laying that brick all the time before you do it is what might be wrong. You should just do it and move to next step.

If we see it practically...Can an athlete succeed without trying? Maybe if he perceives what we see as a try, as joy, then he might believe he never tryed but yet succeeded.

Finaly if others do the job for you, then you have never succeeded. You just live in confort, fooling yourself.

[Ehetlaios]

Ό,τι δεν σε σκοτώνει, σε κάνει δυνατότερο - αυτό το είπε ο τύπος στο άβαταρ μου.

Ακολούθα την καρδιά Φλιπ και αδιαφόρησε για όλα τα άλλα.

[Euklid]

To start with the receiving person does not know about the perfection seen by the other part. The other part sees a perfection but that view is not an objective view. Maybe the lack of errors makes it unreal/mysterious/unknown to the other part. I have no clue about this...In any case this can be like taste in art. You might not like straight lines or "perfect circles" but crooked lines and elipses.

Whatever the taste, we know that the Human body is perfect as drawn by Leonardo. That is objectively the perfect Human body, no matter what taste a man has, when one is confronted with such a body, then one is in awe.

Things may come natural you would think. Maybe you would believe it is you luck. But luck is just an excuse for not being able to explain occurencies in chaos. The idea of trying might be what makes it difficult for you. To succeed with something you have to lay a brick yourself. Thinking about laying that brick all the time before you do it is what might be wrong. You should just do it and move to next step.

If we see it practically...Can an athlete succeed without trying? Maybe if he perceives what we see as a try, as joy, then he might believe he never tryed but yet succeeded.

Exactly the bold.
You lay a brick to your perfection through the cleansing of the common mediocre logic, this post i made is not a thesis against trying. It is a thesis against trying to find perfection within the boundaries of the common logic and hence the presence of the third person. Den anazitoume tin teleiotita se sxesi me trita prosopa.

Ακολούθα την καρδιά Φλιπ και αδιαφόρησε για όλα τα άλλα.

Akrivos file Ehetlaie.

[Flipper]

Ό,τι δεν σε σκοτώνει, σε κάνει δυνατότερο - αυτό το είπε ο τύπος στο άβαταρ μου.

Ακολούθα την καρδιά Φλιπ και αδιαφόρησε για όλα τα άλλα.

Friedrich Nietzsche...Ti ironia kai auth...Ola kolane metaxi tous, auto exw na pw. :)

[Flipper]

Malista...Symfwnw...

Apla, epidi proswpika tous telefteous mhnes kanw tou kefaliou mou, akrivos oti mou katevainei apo to mualo kai den skaw gia tipote (kai petyxainw kai auta pou thelw), den katalavainw pou kolaei o perfectionismos? Pote den eskaga na teleiopoihsw kati me thn mia. Orexh kai meraki na yparxei kai oti kalo petyxoume efprosdekto. Etsi apla.

[Ehetlaios]

Friedrich Nietzsche...Ti ironia kai auth...Ola kolane metaxi tous, auto exw na pw. :)

Τι εννοείς, διαβάζεις Νίτσε αυτή την εποχή;

[Lakonian]

Ahem.

why wasnt i invited to this philosophical topic eh?

Perfection is in they eyes of the beholder my friends if we are talking in physical forms.


If we are talking from a moral point of view or ethics i would say there is nothing more perfect than goodness for goodness contains all virtues.

As for the human body, all humans are considered to be made up of golden ratios or angles.And leonardo believed the human face has the golden ratio.

The term golden angle or more qouted as perfect geometry was an eisthetic term first introduced by the Greek sculptor Phidias.

It was belived that the parthenon embodies this.

Anyways,

i dont think its a virtue when you talk of your own perfection or gloating about a comment that someone made of your beauty...this is insecure.

P.S If this question is applied to someones need to be always perfect ofcourse its there downfall,a human who has a constant lust for perfection will fall hard, simply because imperfect is a loss for them....a universal distruction....those who accept failure are more perfect ,. because they harmonise themselves with the will of the universe.

Kalinixat because im drunk....ha

[Flipper]

i dont think its a virtue when you talk of your own perfection or gloating about a comment that someone made of your beauty...this is insecure.


No way it is a virtue, but as i tryed to make clear from my first post, the receiver does not consider him/herself to be perfect. The characterization comes from the sender of that quote.

Somehow, i tend to believe this quote returns back to itself somehow. There can't be a perfection that is imperfect. Something is wrong in the whole story and i can't figure out what.

A theoretically perfect person would be aware of its perfection, or of what he/she would believe is perfect.

People here gave some very good answers that helped me not with the current question but with the psychology behind it.

[Flipper]

Τι εννοείς, διαβάζεις Νίτσε αυτή την εποχή;

Oxi...Alla kai oi dyo fraseis pou eipes ypothikan apo ton "sender". San na eisoun valtos re Ehetlaie. Perifimes koubentes alla oi sybtwsh me ebale se poli skepsh. Antikrououn thn fysh mias seiras syzhthsewn pou prohgithikan tou erwthmatos pou ethesa.

Genika auth h symbtwsh mporei na einai kai kalh kai kakh...

1) Kalh giati mporei na yparxei akoma kati pou den xerw
2) Kakh giati h frash pou shzhtame den afora ton "receiver" kai lanthasmena thn dextike.

[Ehetlaios]

Oxi...Alla kai oi dyo fraseis pou eipes ypothikan apo ton "sender". San na eisoun valtos re Ehetlaie.

Είμαι προφήτης, υποκλιθείτε μπροστά μου :laugh:

Αν δεν πεις κάτι περισσότερο είναι λίγο δύσκολο να σε βοηθήσουμε. Καλή επιτυχία στην αποκωδικοποίηση πάντως. ;)

[Lakonian]

No way it is a virtue, but as i tryed to make clear from my first post, the receiver does not consider him/herself to be perfect. The characterization comes from the sender of that quote.

Somehow, i tend to believe this quote returns back to itself somehow. There can't be a perfection that is imperfect. Something is wrong in the whole story and i can't figure out what.

A theoretically perfect person would be aware of its perfection, or of what he/she would believe is perfect.

People here gave some very good answers that helped me not with the current question but with the psychology behind it.



What would you think if someone out of the blue told you "Your perfection will be your downfall"?

It depends clearly on what perfection is on......

Is ones "perfection" (as seen from anothers point of view) a lack?

No for that person is complete, harmonious with all.

Is it a virtue when kept for him/herself and a curse when shared with others?

Im not sure what you asking here kept and shared what???

Is it really ones problem or a reflection of the other persons problem(s)?

Again what are you asking here? The psychological aspect would be that that the person telling you "perfection will be your downfall" has a major problem with your status in life or a particular feature you have.

Flipper im gonna forward with you, i dont think you know what your asking.

We must make clear on what we are saying with pefection, aesthetics, ethics, theology?

We can go on and on about perfection but what do we know of it if we dont have it? Already from this we can see we are imperfect because we cannot even grasp what we are applying it to.

I can draw a line from point A to point B and from you looking at it from a normal view seems to be perfect....zoom closer (micro) and you will start to see where i trembled....

A statue looks so beautiful, aphrodite for instance, but move closer and you start to see imperfections, hair line cracks etc.....

If your are bustig your head over why one person sees your perfection and the other doesnt, you still need to clarify what this perfection is or what this imperfect thing is.....

Then comes purpose, exactly what does this perfection serve????

Empedocles argued that perfection is imperfection because it can no longer exeed itself...so thats where we say complete, when one is complete he is harmonious.

Perfection is harmony...within harmonies matrix the word imperfect no longer exists.....

I hope i have helped somehow my friend, and dont loose sleep over it, perfection is a paradox.;)

[Flipper]

What would you think if someone out of the blue told you "Your perfection will be your downfall"?

It depends clearly on what perfection is on......



I wish i knew :huh:



Is it a virtue when kept for him/herself and a curse when shared with others?

Im not sure what you asking here kept and shared what???



Something that one person sees on you as perfect might annoy him/her or he/her might not be able to deal with it. For example you might admire someone as a good retorian but he/she might piss you off when you try to discuss something.


Is it really ones problem or a reflection of the other persons problem(s)?

Again what are you asking here? The psychological aspect would be that that the person telling you "perfection will be your downfall" has a major problem with your status in life or a particular feature you have.

Flipper im gonna forward with you, i dont think you know what your asking.


Yeah, that was my point as well...The problem is what could that status or feature be. You got me right there.


We must make clear on what we are saying with pefection, aesthetics, ethics, theology?

We can go on and on about perfection but what do we know of it if we dont have it? Already from this we can see we are imperfect because we cannot even grasp what we are applying it to.

I can draw a line from point A to point B and from you looking at it from a normal view seems to be perfect....zoom closer (micro) and you will start to see where i trembled....

A statue looks so beautiful, aphrodite for instance, but move closer and you start to see imperfections, hair line cracks etc.....



I totally agree with you. That is my point of view as well.



If your are bustig your head over why one person sees your perfection and the other doesnt, you still need to clarify what this perfection is or what this imperfect thing is.....

Then comes purpose, exactly what does this perfection serve????



Believe me i never got an answer on that. :lol: That is a reason why i try to figure out the background of this quote. Its like when Neo visited the Oracle and he got to know only what he needed to know. So, seriously, I still don't have any answers.



Empedocles argued that perfection is imperfection because it can no longer exeed itself...so thats where we say complete, when one is complete he is harmonious.

Perfection is harmony...within harmonies matrix the word imperfect no longer exists.....

I hope i have helped somehow my friend, and dont loose sleep over it, perfection is a paradox.;)

Very usefull data. I've thought about this...I don't know if i believe in perfection but I know that being complete is one of the best things that can happen to you in life. It is the time you feel everything is possible and that you can achieve anything. No worries, no troubles, just confidence.

[Flipper]

Είμαι προφήτης, υποκλιθείτε μπροστά μου :laugh:

Αν δεν πεις κάτι περισσότερο είναι λίγο δύσκολο να σε βοηθήσουμε. Καλή επιτυχία στην αποκωδικοποίηση πάντως. ;)

As poume oti to atomo pou eipe prwto auto to quote, exei pei se alles syzhthseis akrivos tis fraseis pou eipes :lol:

Tyxaio? Den xerw...

[Euklid]

Malista...Symfwnw...

Apla, epidi proswpika tous telefteous mhnes kanw tou kefaliou mou, akrivos oti mou katevainei apo to mualo kai den skaw gia tipote (kai petyxainw kai auta pou thelw), den katalavainw pou kolaei o perfectionismos? Pote den eskaga na teleiopoihsw kati me thn mia. Orexh kai meraki na yparxei kai oti kalo petyxoume efprosdekto. Etsi apla.
Etsi apla, o perfectionismos ton allon ypokeitai sti diki tous metria kosmo-koinoniko-antilipsi. Kai den prepei se kamia periptosi na mas apospaei apo tin diki mas. Toys graphoume loipon ekei pou gnorizoume kalytera.

De omos den tha prepei oi prakseis mas na epireazoun tous allous arnitika se opoiodipote epipedo. Ayto einai tricky oson afora tin oikogeneia i opoia epireazetai kai apo ton eksoteriko paragonta kai tin antilipsi tou, giayto kai frontizoume na eimaste eytyxismenoi otan synastrefomaste me tin oikogeneia mas, etsi oste na tous dinoume na katalavoun oti zoume se pelagi eytyxias kai me ayto to tropo na min stenaxoriountai oi idioi.

[Spartan]

Wouldn't it be similiar or the same to "Only a wiseman knows he knows nothing."

What is perfection and what criteria do you base it on? Would perfection not conflict with every other persons ideal of perfection?

Striving to achieve perfection is an obsessive action. This means you will sacrifice anything to achieve it, thus hurting yourself and all around you.

[Tsontos]

The women is Maria Fragkoudakis (lives around the corner) and the man, her husband 'Jimmy'.

[Tsontos]

btw Ehetlaios, that picture of Nietzsche is from when he was insane. There are much better pictures of him.

[Ehetlaios]

No it's not.

It's from when he was a professor in Basel, 1875, you can see it on wikipedia. Does he look insane to you in that picture? :laugh:

Here are a couple from when he had collapsed, both are from 1899, photographic series by Hans Olde named "The ill Nietzsche":

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Nietzsche_Olde_02.JPG/200px-Nietzsche_Olde_02.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Nietzsche_Olde_11.JPG/260px-Nietzsche_Olde_11.JPG

[Ehetlaios]

The women is Maria Fragkoudakis (lives around the corner) and the man, her husband 'Jimmy'.

Eh?:unsure:

[Euklid]

Something irrelevant about him and generally the mad-men.

The Human brain performs syllogisms, it adds 1+1=2 and creates thus a postulate. Some people perform multifunctions like (1+2+5)/3*25+28=X instantly, and they are very bored to sit down and explain to the others the whole syllogism, that does not mean that they have lost it, nor that what they say is incorrect. Something like that applies to his work, it speaks only to the "initiated", meaning it speaks only to those who can distinguish the values that lead him to the respective postulates.

[Ehetlaios]

Something like that applies to his work, it speaks only to the "initiated", meaning it speaks only to those who can distinguish the values that lead him to the respective postulates.

:worshippy

Σε όσους έχουν παρόμοια ΒΙΩΜΑΤΑ και ΨΥΧΟΣΥΝΘΕΣΗ με άλλα λόγια!

[Euklid]

Ετσι ειναι ρε φιλε, η δουλεια του γενικως ειναι πολυ παρεξηγημενη..

[Ehetlaios]

Με τι έχεις ασχοληθεί απο Νίτσε;

(Η δουλειά του είναι παρεξηγημένη λόγω άγνοιας του κόσμου και συνυφασμού με ναζισμό.)

[Lakonian]

Με τι έχεις ασχοληθεί απο Νίτσε;

(Η δουλειά του είναι παρεξηγημένη λόγω άγνοιας του κόσμου και συνυφασμού με ναζισμό.)

Hey buddy,

hows things? Anyways, i want to know also how do you associate with Mr Nietzsche? Im not judging you brother, but the guy was all against anyone who spoke ill of the Jews.....i dont see how you appeal to him?

I have read alot on him because i was interested on his views on reality.

Overall i dont realy like his judgement on ancient Greek philosophers, especialy his view on Socrates.

I prefer Kant.

[Euklid]

Den exo asxolithei poly me ti douleia tou Ehetlaie, apospasmatika monaxa.

Genikos to ne goustaro

Re Lakonian min ta vazoume ola se katigories re cuz, ta liga kai kala mporoume na kratame? Ayta.

[Kuniska]

What would you think if someone out of the blue told you "Your perfection will be your downfall"?

I would say to her/him... "You must have just read the story of Narcissos" . That is the first thing that came to my mind. The other thing is that perfectionism with ego is a bad combination so maybe I would worry about how much of a selfish person I am if anyone mentioned that to me...

[Lakonian]

Den exo asxolithei poly me ti douleia tou Ehetlaie, apospasmatika monaxa.

Genikos to ne goustaro

Re Lakonian min ta vazoume ola se katigories re cuz, ta liga kai kala mporoume na kratame? Ayta.

Not at all re, im just boasting my opinion on the guy. I seriously dont feel comfortable reading him. Thats all.

[Lakonian]

Den exo asxolithei poly me ti douleia tou Ehetlaie, apospasmatika monaxa.

Genikos to ne goustaro

Re Lakonian min ta vazoume ola se katigories re cuz, ta liga kai kala mporoume na kratame? Ayta.

Not at all re, im just boasting my opinion on the guy. I seriously dont feel comfortable reading him.The guy just seemed realy conflicted. Thats all.

[Alita]

Ok, i need some help with a quote that has troubled me a lot...

What would you think if someone out of the blue told you "Your perfection will be your downfall"?

Is ones "perfection" (as seen from anothers point of view) a lack?

Is it a virtue when kept for him/herself and a curse when shared with others?

Is it really ones problem or a reflection of the other persons problem(s)?



Your thoughts on this would be valuable for me.

Thanks!



PS: Note that perfection is relative from person to person. I'm not suggesting that the person receiving that comment believes is perfect.

I would tend to agree with them. In this world seeking perfection is about as wise as trying to catch the rainbow. That's why brides wear something old, why you wear your underwear inside-out before an important interview, why you spit on something you want to see glorified and why when you stop to admire something as absolutely perfect the next thing that happens is that it is destroyed. Life can never be perfect, but that doesn't mean it can't be good.

Flipper I don't think it's the admiration of perfection which is our flaw, but rather our blind insistence that we can humanly achieve it.

[Alita]

those who accept failure are more perfect ,. because they harmonise themselves with the will of the universe.

Is that yours Lakonian? That's awesome. :clapping:

[Ehetlaios]

Hey buddy,

hows things? Anyways, i want to know also how do you associate with Mr Nietzsche? Im not judging you brother, but the guy was all against anyone who spoke ill of the Jews.....i dont see how you appeal to him?

I have read alot on him because i was interested on his views on reality.

Overall i dont realy like his judgement on ancient Greek philosophers, especialy his view on Socrates.

I prefer Kant.

It is true that Nietzsche was against antisemitism, he was in favor of individual power and not ethnic or racial.

I suggest "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Get it.

And a good part:


23. The Child with the Mirror

AFTER this Zarathustra returned again into the mountains to the solitude of his cave, and withdrew himself from men, waiting like a sower who hath scattered his seed. His soul, however, became impatient and full of longing for those whom he loved: because he had still much to give them. For this is hardest of all: to close the open hand out of love, and keep modest as a giver.

Thus passed with the lonesome one months and years; his wisdom meanwhile increased, and caused him pain by its abundance.

One morning, however, he awoke ere the rosy dawn, and having meditated long on his couch, at last spake thus to his heart:

Why did I startle in my dream, so that I awoke? Did not a child come to me, carrying a mirror?

"O Zarathustra"—said the child unto me—"look at thyself in the mirror!"

But when I looked into the mirror, I shrieked, and my heart throbbed: for not myself did I see therein, but a devil's grimace and derision.

Verily, all too well do I understand the dream's portent and monition: my doctrine is in danger; tares want to be called wheat!

Mine enemies have grown powerful and have disfigured the likeness of my doctrine, so that my dearest ones have to blush for the gifts that I gave them.

Lost are my friends; the hour hath come for me to seek my lost ones!—

With these words Zarathustra started up, not however like a person in anguish seeking relief, but rather like a seer and a singer whom the spirit inspireth. With amazement did his eagle and serpent gaze upon him: for a coming bliss overspread his countenance like the rosy dawn.

What hath happened unto me, mine animals?—said Zarathustra. Am I not transformed? Hath not bliss come unto me like a whirlwind?

Foolish is my happiness, and foolish things will it speak: it is still too young—so have patience with it!

Wounded am I by my happiness: all sufferers shall be physicians unto me!

To my friends can I again go down, and also to mine enemies! Zarathustra can again speak and bestow, and show his best love to his loved ones!

My impatient love overfloweth in streams,—down towards sunrise and sunset. Out of silent mountains and storms of affliction, rusheth my soul into the valleys.

Too long have I longed and looked into the distance. Too long hath solitude possessed me: thus have I unlearned to keep silence.

Utterance have I become altogether, and the brawling of a brook from high rocks: downward into the valleys will I hurl my speech.

And let the stream of my love sweep into unfrequented channels! How should a stream not finally find its way to the sea!

Forsooth, there is a lake in me, sequestered and self-sufficing; but the stream of my love beareth this along with it, down—to the sea!

New paths do I tread, a new speech cometh unto me; tired have I become—like all creators—of the old tongues. No longer will my spirit walk on worn-out soles.

Too slowly runneth all speaking for me:—into thy chariot, O storm, do I leap! And even thee will I whip with my spite!

Like a cry and an huzza will I traverse wide seas, till I find the Happy Isles where my friends sojourn;—

And mine enemies amongst them! How I now love every one unto whom I may but speak! Even mine enemies pertain to my bliss.

And when I want to mount my wildest horse, then doth my spear always help me up best: it is my foot's ever ready servant:—

The spear which I hurl at mine enemies! How grateful am I to mine enemies that I may at last hurl it!

Too great hath been the tension of my cloud: 'twixt laughters of lightnings will I cast hail-showers into the depths.

Violently will my breast then heave; violently will it blow its storm over the mountains: thus cometh its assuagement.

Verily, like a storm cometh my happiness, and my freedom! But mine enemies shall think that the evil one roareth over their heads.

Yea, ye also, my friends, will be alarmed by my wild wisdom; and perhaps ye will flee therefrom, along with mine enemies.

Ah, that I knew how to lure you back with shepherds' flutes! Ah, that my lioness wisdom would learn to roar softly! And much have we already learned with one another!

My wild wisdom became pregnant on the lonesome mountains; on the rough stones did she bear the youngest of her young.

Now runneth she foolishly in the arid wilderness, and seeketh and seeketh the soft sward—mine old, wild wisdom!

On the soft sward of your hearts, my friends!—on your love, would she fain couch her dearest one!—

Thus spake Zarathustra.

[Ehetlaios]

You can find Zarathustra online, here:

The Collected Works of Friedrich Nietzsche - Thus Spake Zarathustra (http://www.davemckay.co.uk/philosophy/nietzsche/nietzsche.php?name=nietzsche.1883.zarathustra.comm on.index)

[Lakonian]

Is that yours Lakonian? That's awesome. :clapping:

Yep, thanks Alita.:)