Can anybody give me any info about those people,who Albanians claim they are they descendants?Is that true or a usual propaganda from them?What I know is that the word Illyria stopped being used during the late roman times and the term Albania was used the 13th century AD about 1000 years after.So what had happened to those Albanians during that time?Were they hiding or they just appeared later and have nothing to do with the Illyrians?

I'm pretty curious as well. Personally, at this time I couldn't care less if they are or aren't. I am just interested from a historical perspective. I know many members here have talked about this topic at times. I suggest you do a search Τεύκρος then ask more questions. I should probably follow my own advice as well. We'll see.

The Albanians aren't Illyrians I think they're of a Keltic tribe.The Illyrians had no written language so really it's anyone's guess who or what they were.If they were of a proto Greek tribe is debatable....

DID YOU EVER THINK : " WHY THE SCIENCE THAT STUDY THE ILLYRIANS IS CALLED ALBANOLOGY " ?!
:lol::lol::lol::lol:

DID YOU EVER THINK : " WHY THE SCIENCE THAT STUDY THE ILLYRIANS IS CALLED ALBANOLOGY " ?!
:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Actually Albanology is related to studies on Albanian history, cuture and language, nothing to do with Illyrians.

PS: try not to write in caps.

Illyrians descended from haalstat in 1000-1300 bc.They belong to the haalstast culture and in all outer cultural and physical charakteristics resembled Celts thought they had a different language that is not fully defined .
This is the extent of the Illyrian people before conquered by the romans and the area with some differences was renamed to illyricum - a roman province.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Illyria-2.jpg

These are haalstat reenactors and resemble illyrians 100%
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Situla_NHG.jpg

An illyrian find
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/illyria.gif

These two false and idiotic maps are in use by albanians and suport their historical and territorial claims.They are rejected by any historian.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Iliria-1.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Illyria-1.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/6de3.jpg

Also the illyrian type helm is actually greek and the illyrian proper helms are the following
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/illyricHelms.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/IllyrianMigrations.jpg
You can see they are included in Celtic migrations as they were proto-celts

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Arms/EKSLIKSI.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Arms/yahoo006.jpg
Greek origin helms

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Arms/db_Helm-Chronologie__Griechen_1.jpg
Greek origin helms

The Name Of Epirus Was Given by the Hellenes.

It Was Given Be The "Corcyrians" in Corfu wich is probably reasonable to give that name,because the land accross them was "Epirus" as they were in an Island.

The region of epirus by most of the facts that ancient historians have given to us seems to be a non greek region:

1)"Thucydides" In his book (Peloponessian War) He describes the Barbarian Allies of the Peloponessians.

"From the Hellenes there were the Ambraciots, Leucadians and 1000 Peloponessian hoplites."

"From the Barbarians there were: 1000 Chaones wich have no King but 2 Prostates for 1 year Fotis and Nikanores. The Chaones are joint by Thesprotes wich they to have no King. In the head of the Mollosians and the Atintanians was Sabylinthius wich was the tutor of King Tharypa (yet still a child). There were also the Parauey with their King Oroides and 1000 Orestes."

2)"Skylax" He writes around (370-360 b.c) A Geographic book.
He describes the People that lives in Adriatic and Ionian region.

"In The North Adriatic lives the tribe of the Liburnians,
"The middle and the South Adriatic sea Is Populated By Illyrians"
"The Ionian sea is devided Between Chaons and Thesprots.Between them The Mollosians have opened an exit to the sea wich is (40 stadia=8Km)."
"After Mollosia it comes Ambracia an Hellenic Polis,which is (80 stadia) away from the sea"
"From there and down is Hellas no end"

3)Strabo book VII

Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians. Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians,.... whereas the Dryopes, the Caucones, the Pelasgi, the Leleges, and other such peoples, apportioned among themselves the parts that are inside the isthmus--and also the parts outside, for Attica was once held by the Thracians who came with Eumolpus, {398} Daulis in Phocis by Tereus, {399} Cadmeia {400} by the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus, and Boeotia itself by the Aones and Temmices and Hyantes. Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names--Cecrops, Godrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians--Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the thracians,and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei,the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes--Epeirotic tribes.

4)Plutarch-----------(Pyrrhus)------------

In his Book it is said:

"From him Achilles came to have divine honors in Epirus, under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country"
Aspetus=Speito in Albanian and Fast in English.

Pyrrhus was brought at the home of the Illyrian King Glaucias:

"Thus being safe, and out of the reach of pursuit, they addressed themselves to Glaucias, then King of the Illyrians,and finding him sitting at home with his wife, they laid down the child before them."

He was rised as an Illyrian Prince:

"At present, therefore, he gave Pyrrhus into the charge of his wife, commanding he should be brought up with his own children; and a little later, the enemies sending to demand him, and Cassander himself offering two hundred talents, he would not deliver him up; but when he was twelve years old, bringing him with an army into Epirus, made him king."

The Brotherhood between him and Glaucias sons:
"He took a journey out of the kingdom to attend the marriage of one of Glaucias's sons, with whom he was brought up;"

)Strabo:

He has written about the passengers which passes the Egnatia road:

"Starting from Epidamnus (Durres,Dyrrahio) and down to Apollonia, in the Right they have the tribes of Epirus....., in the Left they have the mountains of Illyria.....Then Sailing from Ambracian Golf and on, the places which is in the East and across Peloponnesous are Hellenic.

Also he writes:

"After the Epirotes and Illyrians, from the Hellenes are Akarnanes,Etoles,Lokries and Ezoles

6)Appianus:---------(Historia Romana)-----------

In his book "Historia Romana" it is an article about the Illyrians:

" The Greeks call those people Illyrians who occupy the region beyond Macedonia and Thrace from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the river Danube. This is the length of the country. Its breadth is from Macedonia and the mountains of Thrace to Pannonia and the Adriatic and the foothills of the Alps. Its breadth is five days' journey and its length thirty - so the Greek writers say. The Romans measured the country and found its length to be upward of 1,000 kilometers and its width about 220."

7)Ephores:

He writes that: "the Head(start) of Hellas, is Akarnania from the West,because it is the first that contacts with the Epirots tribes"

8)Malte Brun (Geographer from Danmark)
Analised the Geography of Strabon, and came to concluson that
Etolia and Akarnania, where considered by Ancient Greeks as Semi-Barbarians

Too bad for albanians the Epirotes were Greek and Illyrians were not albanians.
Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

Quote: "We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78


Quote: "When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98


Quote: "As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994

Quote: "Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks." Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece", Penguin Publ., 1996

EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland)

North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.

Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.

Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia. Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.

Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.

A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.

Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career.

The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.

His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell.

An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.

It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported.

Central Epirus never recovered; but northern Epirus prospered during the late republic, and Augustus celebrated his victory at Actium by founding a Roman colony at Nicopolis.

Under the empire a coastal road and a road through the interior were built from north to south, and Buthrotum was a Roman colony.

Ancient remains testify to the great prosperity of Epirus in Hellenistic times. N.G.L.Hammond, "Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.546,547

The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots." Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press, 1990.


Quote: The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia.... Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge University Press, 1997

Quote: Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus.

David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World", Oxford, 1995

Quote: Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect).

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994

the Satyres by Juvenal

Quote: The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Acchilles.. Page 225


"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew

Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking; Quote: Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking Page 284

"The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume 6, the Fourth Century BC" by D M Lewis, Martin Ostwald, Simon Hornblower, John Boardman

Quote: however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization. Quote: In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland. Page 443

Quote: The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group. Page 423

A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography" by William Smith

Quote: Molossi (Μολοσσοί), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Μολοσσία) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself. In their new abodes they intermingled with the original inhabitants of the land and with the neighbouring illyrian tribes of which they were regarded by the other Greeks as half barbarians. They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.

That they [Dorians] were related to the North-West Dialects (of Phocis, Locris, Aetolia, Acarnania and Epirus) was not perceived clearly by the ancients

History of the Language Sciences: I. Approaches to Gender II. Manifestations By Sylvain Auroux, page 439


Quote: the western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus, and parts of Pelagonia; "In the shadow of Olympus.." By Eugene Borza, page 74


Quote: Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, was himself simply a military adventurer. He was none the less a soldier of fortune that he traced back his pedigree to Aeacus and Achilles Quote: He [Pyrrhus] has been compared to Alexander of Macedonia; and certainly the idea of founding a Hellenic empire of the west--which would have had as its core Epirus, Magna Graecia, and Sicily, would have commanded both the Italian seas, and would have reduced Rome and Carthage to the rank of barbarian peoples bordering on the Hellenistic state-system,like the Celts and the Indians--was analogous in greatness and boldness to the idea which led the Macedonian king over the Hellespont.

Quote: he was the first Greek that met the Romans in battle. With him began those direct relations between Rome and Hellas, on which the whole subsequent development of ancient, and an essential part of modern, civilization are based. Quote: this struggle between Rome and Hellenism was first fought out in the battles between Pyrrhus and the Roman generals; Quote: But while the Greeks were beaten in the battlefield as well as in the senate-hall, their superiority was none the less decided on every other field of rivalry than that of politics; and these very struggles already betokened that the victory of Rome over the Hellenes would be different from her victories over Gauls and Phoenicians, and that the charm of Aphrodite only begins to work when the lance is broken and the helmet and shield are laid aside. Theodor Mommsen History of Rome, From the Abolition of the Monarchy in Rome to the Union of Italy, The Historical Position Of Pyrrhus


Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was NOWHERE suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;

Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking. "The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew ,page 284.


Quote: The Epirotes, who may fairly be considered as Greeks by blood, long maintained a rugged independence under native chiefs, who were little more than leaders in war. A Manual of Greek Antiquities Book by Percy Gardner, Frank Byron Jevons; Charles Scribner's Sons, 1895, page 8

9)Strabo and Plutarchus
They write that "Epirots speak a different language from the Greek,
it resembles very much to Macedonian"

10)Puqueville:
When he speaks about Etolia and Akarnania, he sais that:
these places are called Shqiperia, and the inhabitants where called Shqiptar

11)Ch.Brouchneri (Geographer of the king of England)
Albania(Shqiperia) is a province of European Turkey,
In north it borders with Bosnia and Dalmatia,
In south with Livadhia,in East with Thessalia and Macedonia

2)Teodor Momsen (Historian)
In his Book: (History of Ancient Rome).
he calls the Epirotians, Albanians(Shqiptars) of antiquety.

3)Laibnic (the so called Aristotles of modern times)

in his letter sent in 24 January 1705, he writes that
"The Language of Ancient Epirots might exist somewhere in Epirus"
the same believes and

14)J.E.Tunman:
In Epirus lived only non-greeks populations, they spoke Macedonian which is the same with illyrian.the same believes and F.Bop,
J.R.F.Ksilander, J.G.F.Han, J.F.Falmerajer , T.Mommsen

15)P.Krecmer
He writes that:
All the group of North Tribes, from the borders of Epirus, at least from the times of Herodotus, had been called Illyrians, or Hyllirians which is more ancient.

16)Edison L.Clark

He writes :
Albanians, Arnauts as the turks calls them, or Shqiptars,
live in the territory of ancient Epirus and in the territory of illyrians in East Macedonia.
From Montenegro(North) till the Ambracian Golf (South).
He continues :
Ancient Epirots are different from Ancient Greeks, like Albanians from todays Greeks.Epirots and Illyrians where neighbour tribes , but of the same blood, which spoke different dialects of the same language.

17)Marinus Barletius:
In His Book About the Life(biography) of the national hero of Albania , George Kastrioti - Scanderbeg:
The title of his Book is"
«HISTORIA DE VITA ET GESTIS SCANDERBEGI EPIROTARUM PRINCIPIS»

18)Scanderbeg
A letter that send to Prince of Tarranto , Giovani Antonio , Wrote:
"My Forefathers were Epirotes , from which Pyrrhus rose who won the Romans"

Continues......

Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro (Pyrrhus the Great), who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.

I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?

8) Martin P. N. Nilson,�Studien z.Geschichte d’alten Epiros�, Lun, 1909
Epirus in every Aspect is non Greek

19) Leon the Clever ( X century a.d)
The inhabitants of Epirus are Albanians

:clapping:
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Apeiros.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/EPIRUS.jpg

20)Mihal Ducasnantari (Byzantine Cronist of XIV century)
"The ruler of Janina Thomas Preliubovic , the so called "ALBANOKTONOS" (albanians killer) ,
was Clearing Janina from Albanians , in a way that , he was sending Gjin Bua shpata Baskets with Albanian Eyes...

21) Lord Byron (Childe Harold's)

XLII

Morn dawns; and with it stern Albania's hills,
Dark Suli's rocks, and Pindus' inland peak,

Tambourgi! Tambourgi! thy 'larum afar
Gives hope to the valiant, and promise of war;
All the sons of the mountains arise at the note,
Chimariot, Illyrian, and dark Suliote!

In a Letter "31.10.1809" sending a letter he writes (Yannina - Albania)

I first landed in Albania the ancient Epirus where we as far as Mount Tomarit
excellently by the chief AH Pacha and after journeying through Illyria Chaonia ... crossed the Gulf Actium
with a guard of fifty Albanians and passed the Achelous in our route through Acarnania...............

Albania comprises part of Macedonia lllyria Chaonia and Epirus Iskander is the Turkish word for Alexander and the celebrated Scanderbeg Lord Alexander is alluded to in the third and fourth lines of the thirty eighth stanza I do not know whether I am correct in making Scandcrbeg the countryman of Alexander who was horn at Pella in Macedón but Mr Gibbon terms him so and adds Pyrrhus to the list in speaking of his exploits Of Albania

22)Dr. Holland says when landing in Epirus

The Albanian peasant or soldier words which in this country seem to be almost
synonymous is here seen in the completeness of his national character and costume masculine in his features which slio

23) Karl Marx (The Eastern Question , p.18)
With Constantinople, she stands on the threshold of the Mediterranean; with
Durazzo and the Albanian coast from Antivari to Arta, she is in the very center ....

24) Henry Holland

I shall mention a few particulars as the gulf of Arta may be considered the outlet for the southern of Albania

25) The pro-Greek historian Spiro Muselimi,
in his book "Historical Sight Through Thesprotia", edited in Joannina on 1974,

"The bishop of Thesprotia in the year 1870 translated some parts of Bible into Albanian,
as the people of orthodox faith of the region did not understand any word in Greek".

26 The census held by the Turkish Administration in 1910

established that there were 83.000 orthodox and muslim Albanians in the region.

27) The demographic map of the British military mission sent to the British government
in London

indicates that on the eve of the second World War, %75 of Chameria's population was Albanian.

28) Catholic Encyclopedia of 1900

Albania

The ancient Epirus and Illyria, is the most western land occupied by the Turks in Europe.

Its extreme length is about 290 miles, and its breadth from forty to ninety miles.
On the west and southwest it is bounded by the Adriatic and the Ionian seas.
It is generally divided into three regions: Upper Albania, from the Montenegrin
frontier to the river Shkumbi; Lower Albania, or Epirus, from the Shkumbi to the Gulf of Arta;
and Eastern Albania, to the east of the Schar-Dagh chain....

After Scutari, Yanina is the largest and most interesting town of modern Albania.

Near it are the ruins of the temple of Dodona,
the cradle of pagan civilization in Greece.........

29) Sathos (Greek Historian)
"In Middle ages Thesprotia is referred as being inhabited by Albanian population"

30) Golubinski
The most famous and most learned champion of these reforms was
Maximus the Greek, born at Arta, in Albania, and educated in Italy. He entered
monastic life on Mount Athos, and in 1518 repaired to Russia.........

31) Stefanos Skyloudis (letter to Greek foreign minister in 18/02/1877)
" .....Albanians without a writing language ,undeveloped education , without a definite religion ,
will not preserve for to long time their nationality , they will gradually assimilated from the Greeks of Epirus"

This is info about illyrians not albanian that came 1000 ad and after.You will be banned and all your posts erased if you dont comply
I AM SORRY WHERE DO YOU BASE YOU'RE PATHETIC OPINION ?

Posting 100 times and like that just takes up space.You posts must be categorised in "by age" and put in 2 or 3 posts then answered.Ancient writers,medieval,modern.That is if you want a discussion or if you are just a moron.

Also you are joke in historical circles and are not believed by anyone.You are actually damaging yourself.

THIS PROOFS CONFERM THAT EPIROTANS WHERE SOTHERN ILLYRIANS . AND STUDY MORE ABOUT THE ILLYRIANS PARTICULARY THE ALBANOI/ARBANITAI !

Topic

Info about the Illyrians

first post

Info about the Illyrians
Can anybody give me any info about those people,who Albanians claim they are they descendants?Is that true or a usual propaganda from them?What I know is that the word Illyria stopped being used during the late roman times and the term Albania was used the 13th century AD about 1000 years after.So what had happened to those Albanians during that time?Were they hiding or they just appeared later and have nothing to do with the Illyrians?

On Albanian claims regarding illyria,pelasgians and others
Albanians have nothing to do with the areas they occupy

Here are some quotes from famous Albanian historians;

Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):

When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today's Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Kor?a (Korcha), (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.

Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):


After him followed the Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Lubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others." Quote: About the Albanians, Wilkes writes "NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."

Wilkes was proven CORRECT by science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European lineage. Quote: That's the way it is with our culture, which is mythomaniac, national-communist, romantic, self-glorifying. You can't say anything objective without people getting angry. The Albanians are a people who still dream. That is what they are like in their conversations, their literature...In light of Hoxha and 'pyramid schemes, Albanians are a people who still dream. That's just the way they are..." Fatos Lubojia - Albanian historian Quote: Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi writes: I can say that today appear a group of new Albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths (About Illyrian & Epirote descent) and courageously accept the scientific truth that they are not whatsoever connected to these ancient peoples. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage."

Quote: Ardian Vebiu Famous Albanian historian writes:

My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism.

Posting 100 times and like that just takes up space.You posts must be categorised in "by age" and put in 2 or 3 posts then answered.Ancient writers,medieval,modern.That is if you want a discussion or if you are just a moron.

Also you are joke in historical circles and are not believed by anyone.You are actually damaging yourself.
THIS IS XENOFHOBIA , NOW I UNDERSTAND WHY THE WORD HAVE GREEK ORIGINS . YOU ARE KILLING ALL THE HONOR AND PURITY OF THE OLD GREEKS WITH YOU'RE RACISEM .
BRAVO , BRAVO , GOOD BOY !

THIS PROOFS CONFERM THAT EPIROTANS WHERE SOTHERN ILLYRIANS . AND STUDY MORE ABOUT THE ILLYRIANS PARTICULARY THE ALBANOI/ARBANITAI !

What is proven is that you are worthless brainwashed people and you will continue to be so till you destroy yourselves.:clap2:

On Albanian claims regarding illyria,pelasgians and others
Albanians have nothing to do with the areas they occupy

Here are some quotes from famous Albanian historians;

Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):

When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today's Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Kor?a (Korcha), (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.

Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):


After him followed the Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Lubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others." Quote: About the Albanians, Wilkes writes "NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."

Wilkes was proven CORRECT by science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European lineage. Quote: That's the way it is with our culture, which is mythomaniac, national-communist, romantic, self-glorifying. You can't say anything objective without people getting angry. The Albanians are a people who still dream. That is what they are like in their conversations, their literature...In light of Hoxha and 'pyramid schemes, Albanians are a people who still dream. That's just the way they are..." Fatos Lubojia - Albanian historian Quote: Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi writes: I can say that today appear a group of new Albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths (About Illyrian & Epirote descent) and courageously accept the scientific truth that they are not whatsoever connected to these ancient peoples. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage."

Quote: Ardian Vebiu Famous Albanian historian writes:

My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism.

The only albanian people with some sense are any above albanians!:)

THIS FORUM PAGE TALK ABOUT THE ILLYRIANS . I APROOVE THAT EPIROTANS WHERE AND ARE ILLYRIANS . I TALK ABOUT THEY'RE DESCENDANTS , WHATS WRONG HERE ?

You came in the middle ages at the era of byzantium and than became turks with islam.Before that you were not here.

And you proved nothing other than you cant post correctly.

The only albanian people with some sense are any above albanians!:)
WHY YOU DON'T SIMPLY READ SOMETHING APROOVED BY REAL STUDIERS AND HISTORIANS , NOT THOSE PATHETHIC JUGOSLLAVIST MINORANCES OF ALBANIA ! YOU DON'T SEE THEY'RE NAME . I DON'T SEE ANY ALBANIAN NAME THERE . STUDY SOMETHING MORE ABOUT ILLYRIANS(EPIROTANS) .

Illyrians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians)

Too bad for albanians the Epirotes were Greek and Illyrians were not albanians.
Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

Quote: "We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78


Quote: "When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98


Quote: "As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994

Quote: "Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks." Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece", Penguin Publ., 1996

EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland)

North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.

Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.

Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia. Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.

Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.

A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.

Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career.

The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.

His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell.

An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.

It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported.

Central Epirus never recovered; but northern Epirus prospered during the late republic, and Augustus celebrated his victory at Actium by founding a Roman colony at Nicopolis.

Under the empire a coastal road and a road through the interior were built from north to south, and Buthrotum was a Roman colony.

Ancient remains testify to the great prosperity of Epirus in Hellenistic times. N.G.L.Hammond, "Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.546,547

The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots." Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press, 1990.


Quote: The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia.... Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge University Press, 1997

Quote: Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus.

David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World", Oxford, 1995

Quote: Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect).

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994

the Satyres by Juvenal

Quote: The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Acchilles.. Page 225


"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew

Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking; Quote: Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking Page 284

"The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume 6, the Fourth Century BC" by D M Lewis, Martin Ostwald, Simon Hornblower, John Boardman

Quote: however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization. Quote: In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland. Page 443

Quote: The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group. Page 423

A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography" by William Smith

Quote: Molossi (Μολοσσοί), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Μολοσσία) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself. In their new abodes they intermingled with the original inhabitants of the land and with the neighbouring illyrian tribes of which they were regarded by the other Greeks as half barbarians. They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.

That they [Dorians] were related to the North-West Dialects (of Phocis, Locris, Aetolia, Acarnania and Epirus) was not perceived clearly by the ancients

History of the Language Sciences: I. Approaches to Gender II. Manifestations By Sylvain Auroux, page 439


Quote: the western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus, and parts of Pelagonia; "In the shadow of Olympus.." By Eugene Borza, page 74


Quote: Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, was himself simply a military adventurer. He was none the less a soldier of fortune that he traced back his pedigree to Aeacus and Achilles Quote: He [Pyrrhus] has been compared to Alexander of Macedonia; and certainly the idea of founding a Hellenic empire of the west--which would have had as its core Epirus, Magna Graecia, and Sicily, would have commanded both the Italian seas, and would have reduced Rome and Carthage to the rank of barbarian peoples bordering on the Hellenistic state-system,like the Celts and the Indians--was analogous in greatness and boldness to the idea which led the Macedonian king over the Hellespont.

Quote: he was the first Greek that met the Romans in battle. With him began those direct relations between Rome and Hellas, on which the whole subsequent development of ancient, and an essential part of modern, civilization are based. Quote: this struggle between Rome and Hellenism was first fought out in the battles between Pyrrhus and the Roman generals; Quote: But while the Greeks were beaten in the battlefield as well as in the senate-hall, their superiority was none the less decided on every other field of rivalry than that of politics; and these very struggles already betokened that the victory of Rome over the Hellenes would be different from her victories over Gauls and Phoenicians, and that the charm of Aphrodite only begins to work when the lance is broken and the helmet and shield are laid aside. Theodor Mommsen History of Rome, From the Abolition of the Monarchy in Rome to the Union of Italy, The Historical Position Of Pyrrhus


Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was NOWHERE suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;

Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking. "The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew ,page 284.


Quote: The Epirotes, who may fairly be considered as Greeks by blood, long maintained a rugged independence under native chiefs, who were little more than leaders in war. A Manual of Greek Antiquities Book by Percy Gardner, Frank Byron Jevons; Charles Scribner's Sons, 1895, page 8

Read pitifull being:nono:

Albania - The Ancient Illyrians (http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_albaniaancient.htm)

Well albanians are brainwashed and pityfull communofascists for the most part.With no crtiical mind or path other than selfdestruction.

Who were the Illyrians (http://www.geocities.com/protoillyrian/)

tribes (http://www.ancientillyrians.com/tribes.html)

Oxford,Cambridge all with us.With albanians ? worthless albanian fascists brainwashing albanian people with no education.Carry on!

Too bad for albanians the Epirotes were Greek and Illyrians were not albanians.
Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

Quote: "We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78


Quote: "When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98


Quote: "As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994

Quote: "Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks." Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece", Penguin Publ., 1996

EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland)

North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.

Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.

Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia. Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.

Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.

A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.

Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career.

The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.

His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell.

An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.

It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported.

Central Epirus never recovered; but northern Epirus prospered during the late republic, and Augustus celebrated his victory at Actium by founding a Roman colony at Nicopolis.

Under the empire a coastal road and a road through the interior were built from north to south, and Buthrotum was a Roman colony.

Ancient remains testify to the great prosperity of Epirus in Hellenistic times. N.G.L.Hammond, "Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.546,547

The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots." Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press, 1990.


Quote: The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia.... Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge University Press, 1997

Quote: Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus.

David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World", Oxford, 1995

Quote: Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect).

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994

the Satyres by Juvenal

Quote: The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Acchilles.. Page 225


"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew

Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking; Quote: Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking Page 284

"The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume 6, the Fourth Century BC" by D M Lewis, Martin Ostwald, Simon Hornblower, John Boardman

Quote: however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization. Quote: In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland. Page 443

Quote: The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group. Page 423

A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography" by William Smith

Quote: Molossi (Μολοσσοί), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Μολοσσία) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself. In their new abodes they intermingled with the original inhabitants of the land and with the neighbouring illyrian tribes of which they were regarded by the other Greeks as half barbarians. They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.

That they [Dorians] were related to the North-West Dialects (of Phocis, Locris, Aetolia, Acarnania and Epirus) was not perceived clearly by the ancients

History of the Language Sciences: I. Approaches to Gender II. Manifestations By Sylvain Auroux, page 439


Quote: the western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus, and parts of Pelagonia; "In the shadow of Olympus.." By Eugene Borza, page 74


Quote: Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, was himself simply a military adventurer. He was none the less a soldier of fortune that he traced back his pedigree to Aeacus and Achilles Quote: He [Pyrrhus] has been compared to Alexander of Macedonia; and certainly the idea of founding a Hellenic empire of the west--which would have had as its core Epirus, Magna Graecia, and Sicily, would have commanded both the Italian seas, and would have reduced Rome and Carthage to the rank of barbarian peoples bordering on the Hellenistic state-system,like the Celts and the Indians--was analogous in greatness and boldness to the idea which led the Macedonian king over the Hellespont.

Quote: he was the first Greek that met the Romans in battle. With him began those direct relations between Rome and Hellas, on which the whole subsequent development of ancient, and an essential part of modern, civilization are based. Quote: this struggle between Rome and Hellenism was first fought out in the battles between Pyrrhus and the Roman generals; Quote: But while the Greeks were beaten in the battlefield as well as in the senate-hall, their superiority was none the less decided on every other field of rivalry than that of politics; and these very struggles already betokened that the victory of Rome over the Hellenes would be different from her victories over Gauls and Phoenicians, and that the charm of Aphrodite only begins to work when the lance is broken and the helmet and shield are laid aside. Theodor Mommsen History of Rome, From the Abolition of the Monarchy in Rome to the Union of Italy, The Historical Position Of Pyrrhus


Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was NOWHERE suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;

Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking. "The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew ,page 284.


Quote: The Epirotes, who may fairly be considered as Greeks by blood, long maintained a rugged independence under native chiefs, who were little more than leaders in war. A Manual of Greek Antiquities Book by Percy Gardner, Frank Byron Jevons; Charles Scribner's Sons, 1895, page 8

Welcome to Frosina.org :: An Albanian Immigrant and Cultural Resource (http://www.frosina.org/culturehistory/reviews.asp?id=122)

Albania :: The Illyrians --Â* Britannica Online Encyclopedia (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-42640)

Illyrians.org - Illyria (http://www.illyrians.org/illyria.html)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/207/485525377_f6d3e01937.jpg?v=0
Margalit Finkelberg(Greeks and Pre-Greeks, Gambridge, edition 2007).

Prehistoric Greece 2000 BC

ISBN-13: 9780521852166 | ISBN-10: 0521852161)
.


Latest Cambridge edition.Greek epirus in 2000 bc .Illyrians came at 1000-1300 in the area and albanians a 1000AD.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Albania (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01253b.htm)

Too bad for albanians the Epirotes were Greek and Illyrians were not albanians.
Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

Quote: "We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78


Quote: "When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98


Quote: "As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994

Quote: "Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks." Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece", Penguin Publ., 1996

EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland)

North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.

Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.

Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia. Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.

Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.

A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.

Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career.

The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.

His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell.

An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.

It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported.

Central Epirus never recovered; but northern Epirus prospered during the late republic, and Augustus celebrated his victory at Actium by founding a Roman colony at Nicopolis.

Under the empire a coastal road and a road through the interior were built from north to south, and Buthrotum was a Roman colony.

Ancient remains testify to the great prosperity of Epirus in Hellenistic times. N.G.L.Hammond, "Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.546,547

The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots." Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press, 1990.


Quote: The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia.... Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge University Press, 1997

Quote: Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus.

David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World", Oxford, 1995

Quote: Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect).

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994

the Satyres by Juvenal

Quote: The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Acchilles.. Page 225


"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew

Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking; Quote: Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking Page 284

"The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume 6, the Fourth Century BC" by D M Lewis, Martin Ostwald, Simon Hornblower, John Boardman

Quote: however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization. Quote: In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland. Page 443

Quote: The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group. Page 423

A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography" by William Smith

Quote: Molossi (Μολοσσοί), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Μολοσσία) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself. In their new abodes they intermingled with the original inhabitants of the land and with the neighbouring illyrian tribes of which they were regarded by the other Greeks as half barbarians. They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.

That they [Dorians] were related to the North-West Dialects (of Phocis, Locris, Aetolia, Acarnania and Epirus) was not perceived clearly by the ancients

History of the Language Sciences: I. Approaches to Gender II. Manifestations By Sylvain Auroux, page 439


Quote: the western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus, and parts of Pelagonia; "In the shadow of Olympus.." By Eugene Borza, page 74


Quote: Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, was himself simply a military adventurer. He was none the less a soldier of fortune that he traced back his pedigree to Aeacus and Achilles Quote: He [Pyrrhus] has been compared to Alexander of Macedonia; and certainly the idea of founding a Hellenic empire of the west--which would have had as its core Epirus, Magna Graecia, and Sicily, would have commanded both the Italian seas, and would have reduced Rome and Carthage to the rank of barbarian peoples bordering on the Hellenistic state-system,like the Celts and the Indians--was analogous in greatness and boldness to the idea which led the Macedonian king over the Hellespont.

Quote: he was the first Greek that met the Romans in battle. With him began those direct relations between Rome and Hellas, on which the whole subsequent development of ancient, and an essential part of modern, civilization are based. Quote: this struggle between Rome and Hellenism was first fought out in the battles between Pyrrhus and the Roman generals; Quote: But while the Greeks were beaten in the battlefield as well as in the senate-hall, their superiority was none the less decided on every other field of rivalry than that of politics; and these very struggles already betokened that the victory of Rome over the Hellenes would be different from her victories over Gauls and Phoenicians, and that the charm of Aphrodite only begins to work when the lance is broken and the helmet and shield are laid aside. Theodor Mommsen History of Rome, From the Abolition of the Monarchy in Rome to the Union of Italy, The Historical Position Of Pyrrhus


Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was NOWHERE suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;

Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking. "The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew ,page 284.


Quote: The Epirotes, who may fairly be considered as Greeks by blood, long maintained a rugged independence under native chiefs, who were little more than leaders in war. A Manual of Greek Antiquities Book by Percy Gardner, Frank Byron Jevons; Charles Scribner's Sons, 1895, page 8
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History - Shqiptart n Kanada - Albanians in Canada (http://www.albanian.ca/History.htm)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/GreecePelopoWar.jpg
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http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Classical_Greece_450_BC.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/EPIRUS.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/pelop.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Griechenland_371-362.jpg

Illyrian languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Mac200bcFR.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/GrecoPersENG.jpg

"Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"

"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."

Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer:clap2:

"Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"

"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."

Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/750px-Map_Greco-Persian_Wars-fr.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Pelop_krieg1.jpg

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Albania - The Ancient Illyrians (http://historymedren.about.com/library/text/ntxtalbania2.htm)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/perwarmap.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/pelopwarmap.jpg

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http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Map20Peloponnesian20War.jpg

Stuart Glendinning Hall :: Illyria - land of the free (http://www.stuart-hall.com/blog/_archives/2006/1/18/1713844.html)

Epirus is Greek you see and albanians are not illyrians as all world class universities proclaim.Oxford,cambridge!

What more!!!!!!!!!

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/GrL.jpg
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http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/44e2.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Perserkriege.jpg

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http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Pelopwar.jpg

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http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Maps%20and%20more/Map077.jpg

Ilyrians (http://www.geocities.com/spiritofalbania/ilyrians.htm)

Is there a world conspiracy against the mighty nation of albania?:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::l ol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Maps%20and%20more/PL.jpg

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-840X(1989)2:39:2%3C294:IAE%3E2.0.CO;2-H

The Illyrians: Kingdoms, Wars and Culture (http://www.shqiponja.de/english/albania/illyrians.htm)

Nationbuilding in the Balkans (http://pbosnia.kentlaw.edu/resources/history/albania/albhist.htm)

The Illyrians - their origins and homes - Parajsa Shqiptare Forum (http://forumi.parajsa.com/f87/illyrians-their-origins-homes-20060/)

The Myth of Great Albania - History (http://samvak.tripod.com/pp31.html)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Illyria-2.jpg

Albania History (http://www.world66.com/europe/albania/history)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Iliria-1.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Illyria-1.jpg

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http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/illyria-cum06.jpg

Central Europe Review - Sam Vaknin: The Myth of Greater Albania (Part 2) (http://www.ce-review.org/99/18/vaknin18.html)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/illyria-cum05.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/illyria-cum04.jpg

Bes Molosi, do you think you could please stop posting crap geocities and tripod sites.

The Illyrians - their origins and homes - Parajsa Shqiptare Forum (http://forumi.parajsa.com/f87/illyrians-their-origins-homes-20060/)
Two questions...
1-Where Homer mention that the Paeonians were Illyrians ?
2-How do you know that the Pelasgians were Illyrians ?

of course there a lot of unaccuracies in your link but let stay for start in the first two.

Illyrian history (http://mythologies.bravepages.com/history1.htm)

Two questions...
1-Where Homer mention that the Paeonians were Illyrians ?
2-How do you know that the Pelasgians were Illyrians ?

of course there a lot of unaccuracies in your link but let stay for start in the first two.
IS A FORUM MAN . THEY SHOULD HAVE READ IT SOMEWHERE ?!

Appian's History of Rome: The Illyrian Wars (http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/appian_illyrian_1.html)

Bes Molossi was banned for spamming and for using the fake profile 1stanbul. Links like the one of 'white history' have no place here.

He was a real fascist as well.I thought so.A white supremacist albanian!Wow what is the world coming to!

To get back on Topic regarding the Illyrians.The Illyrian helm is type of helm.

The type Illyrian helmet originated in the Peloponnese and is Greek at 7th century bc the term "illyrian" is conventional just like all terms for helms.
Terms such as Illyrian and attic are used in archaeology for convenience to denote a particulat type of helmet and do not imply its origin.

Page 60 Peter Connoly,
Greece & Rome at War

* ISBN-10: 185367303X
* ISBN-13: 978-1853673030

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Illyria-2.jpg
They expanded to this extent in tribal structures for the most part and formed alliances and kingdomgs till they were conquered by the romans and the area with some changes was renamed Illyricum-a Roman province.

This is the roman province with the name Illyricum and is irrelevant to the illyrians as is all post-roman conquest geographical defnitions with the name.This is bureaucratic term for an area.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/illyricum.jpg

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ancient-macedonian-history/3205-greekness-dexari-dessaretes.html

Olvios look what i have found out this summer in Lychnidos/Ohrid Fyrom!

The Albanians to this date claim the Dessaretes as Illyrian/Albanian but my research at the museum found out that the Dessaretes wrote and spoke in a Northwestern Greek dialect right up till the 6th c.A.D. many images found on tombstones and scripts written by the Dessaretes on stone..

Albs the Dessaretes are Greek and were always Greek!

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Illyrians-1.jpg
Data from by John Wilkes,The Illyrians (The Peoples of Europe),# ISBN-10: 0631198075,# ISBN-13: 978-0631198079,Crossland» R. A. 1982. Linguistic problem of the Balkan area in late prehistoric and early classical periods | .III.The lllyrians. in Boardman, J. ct al. (eds). The Cambridge Ancient History, 2nd edn, Cambridge, vol. 3, part 1, 839-43.Polome, E, G. 1966. The position of Illyrian and Venetic. In Birnbaum, H and Puhvel, J, (eds), Ancient Indo-European dialects, Berkeley and Los Angeles, 58-76. 1982. Balkan languages [... J.1, Illyrian. In Boardman et al 1982 see Crossland 1982). 866 76.
Wilkes, J. 1992. The Illyrians. Oxford. (Illyrian language,67-73; Illyrian names, 74-87)By "Encyclopedia of the Languages of Europe" By Glanville Price

Illyrian migrations and relationship with proto-Celts
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/IllyrianMigrations.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/IllyrianMigrations-1.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Illryians-1.jpg

Can anybody give me any info about those people,who Albanians claim they are they descendants?Is that true or a usual propaganda from them?What I know is that the word Illyria stopped being used during the late roman times and the term Albania was used the 13th century AD about 1000 years after.So what had happened to those Albanians during that time?Were they hiding or they just appeared later and have nothing to do with the Illyrians?
YOU'RE TOTALLY WRONG , ARE THE STUDIERS THAT CLAIM ALBANIANS DESCENDATS OF ILLYRIANS .
ALBANIANS IN PROPER CLAIM THEY SELF DESCENDANT OF PELASGIANS !
THEY'RE PROBLEM IS THAT ONLY A FEW PART OF STUDIERS BELIVE THAT ALBANIANS ARE DESCENDANT OF PELASGIANS , FOR THESE THEY TRY TO APEARS PELASGIANS = PROTO ILLYRIANS !
IN THESE WAY THEY CAN SAY THAT THEY ARE THE FIRST PEOPLE OF GREECE !
:huh:

The Albanians aren't Illyrians I think they're of a Keltic tribe.The Illyrians had no written language so really it's anyone's guess who or what they were.If they were of a proto Greek tribe is debatable....
FIRST IS SAID CELTIC , NOT KELTIC !
SECOND ILLYRIANS ARE A PROTO CELTIC TRIBE , THAT MOVE FROM NORTHERN EUROPE TO WESTERN BALKANS .
FOR SURE THAT ILLYRIANS HAVE A WRITTEN LANGUAGE , BUT IT SURVIVES ONLY SOME WORDS .
THESE WORDS ARE IDENTICLY IN ALBANIAN AND WELSHIAN .
ILLYRIANS ARE CONSIDERED OF CENTUM LANGUAGE , AND FOR SURE LIKE ALL THE CENTUM LANGUAGES ARE SIMILAR TO EACH OTHER .
ILLYRIANS ARE CONSIDERED MORE OLDER THAN GREEKS !
FROM THESE START THE ALBANIAN CLAIMS , THEY PRETTEND THAT BEFORE THE GREEK ARRIVING IN HEM ILLYRIANS LIVE IN GREECE , AND WAS THE GREEKS THAT KICK THEM TO NORTH !
:mad:

DID YOU EVER THINK : " WHY THE SCIENCE THAT STUDY THE ILLYRIANS IS CALLED ALBANOLOGY " ?!
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
WHAT ?
ALBANOLOGY STUDY ALBANIANS NOT ILLYRIANS !
BECAUSE THAT STUDIERS ARE CONVICIED THAT ALBANIANS ARE DESCENDANT OF ILLYRIANS , ALBANOLOGY STUDY ALREADY ILLYRIANS !
GET MORE INFORMATION , BEFORE TALKING , BECAUSE IS HUMMILIATING FOR YOU AND THE CAUSE THAT YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR !
:dry:

These two false and idiotic maps are in use by albanians and suport their historical and territorial claims.They are rejected by any historian.
WHY DID THEY SCRIVE SOME NAMES IN BLACK AND SOME IN RED , WHAT THEY WANT TO SAY THAT THE ILLYRIANS BOUNDARY WAS RED & BLACK ?
:laugh:

)Strabo:

He has written about the passengers which passes the Egnatia road:

"Starting from Epidamnus (Durres,Dyrrahio) and down to Apollonia, in the Right they have the tribes of Epirus....., in the Left they have the mountains of Illyria.....Then Sailing from Ambracian Golf and on, the places which is in the East and across Peloponnesous are Hellenic.

Also he writes:

"After the Epirotes and Illyrians, from the Hellenes are Akarnanes,Etoles,Lokries and Ezoles
BUT HE DON'T SAY THAT EPEIROTES WERE ILLYRIANS .
HE CALL THEM BARBARIANS !
THE PROBLEM OF THE ALBANIC PROPAGANDA IS THAT : FOR THEM ANY BARBARIAN WAS ILLYRIAN ??
:huh::huh:

YOU'RE TOTALLY WRONG , ARE THE STUDIERS THAT CLAIM ALBANIANS DESCENDATS OF ILLYRIANS .
ALBANIANS IN PROPER CLAIM THEY SELF DESCENDANT OF PELASGIANS !
THEY'RE PROBLEM IS THAT ONLY A FEW PART OF STUDIERS BELIVE THAT ALBANIANS ARE DESCENDANT OF PELASGIANS , FOR THESE THEY TRY TO APEARS PELASGIANS = PROTO ILLYRIANS !
IN THESE WAY THEY CAN SAY THAT THEY ARE THE FIRST PEOPLE OF GREECE !
:huh:

Actually the Pelasgic connection is something promoted by Albanian scholars and not widely accepted among the international community.
The major problem is that the Illyrians are not considered an autochthonous people but part of the IE which arrived in the region during the 13-12th cent. BC, if so then they simply can't be the first IE peoples of Hellas simply because the Hellenes appear several centuries prior to the Illyrians.
Simple actually.


FIRST IS SAID CELTIC , NOT KELTIC !
SECOND ILLYRIANS ARE A PROTO CELTIC TRIBE , THAT MOVE FROM NORTHERN EUROPE TO WESTERN BALKANS .
The pronounciation is K not C, so the writting is no real problem, unless you want to stick on such a trivial issue.
You following statement overthrows everything you've stated about Illyrians. If as you claim you are part of the Celtic peoples, then there is the evident problem when claiming relations to the Pelasgians as I hope you can see.


NOT EXACT , READ MORE !

Care to explain especially since only 1 post above you totally accept what I say by stating that "ALBANOLOGY STUDY ALBANIANS NOT ILLYRIANS !"


PS: do stop writting in caps, its like you're shouting.

24) Henry Holland

I shall mention a few particulars as the gulf of Arta may be considered the outlet for the southern of Albania
Exactly the Albanoi/Arbanitai extends in modern Tirana , not in Arta , if you're talking about Illyrians , from modern Cruia to Elbasan .

27) The demographic map of the British military mission sent to the British government
in London

indicates that on the eve of the second World War, %75 of Chameria's population was Albanian.
25% was Illyrian !!

29) Sathos (Greek Historian)
"In Middle ages Thesprotia is referred as being inhabited by Albanian population"
Molosia was inhabbited by Illyrians .
Chaonia have a Inca majorance , but a consideraible Aztec minority !
:p

31) Stefanos Skyloudis (letter to Greek foreign minister in 18/02/1877)
" .....Albanians without a writing language ,undeveloped education , without a definite religion ,
will not preserve for to long time their nationality , they will gradually assimilated from the Greeks of Epirus"
He already say , that is necesary to have good relations with King Gentius of Illyria !

Too bad for albanians the Epirotes were Greek and Illyrians were not albanians.
Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

Quote: "We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78


Quote: "When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98


Quote: "As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled. Moreover since the great majority of th