I love Greece. It is why I speak boldly and the way I do. To be silent would be detrimental to my Greekness and the Greek people. Nikos Dimou is one of my favorite Greeks. He speaks boldly, for he loves Greece and the Greek people. I love his writings and include one here. This is exactly my feelings toward many things for and againest present Greek thought. To speak one's mind is a true Greek trait:

The Glory that was Greece


- I wish statesmen were poets, said Ion.

- Why?

- Because Poets always loved Greece! They had a weakness for this country. They were ready to forgive our mistakes, to understand our problems, to help in times of need. Remember Byron? Now nobody cares for us...

In the rays of the setting sun, eighteen-year old Ion looked like an ancient statue of Antinoos.

- Why is it that you Greeks want so much to be loved? You have an overwhelming need for warmth and care. You divide all foreigners into friends and foes -- Philellenes and Misellenes, Greek-lovers and Greek-haters. Has it never dawned upon you that most people are neutral and indifferent?

That was Robert the Scot, speaking. He was sipping at his ouzo. (Unlike Greeks, he hates scotch whisky.)

- This is the Greek way to look at history and politics, I said. Dramatic, not to say melodramatic. Our philosophy of history explains everything after the pattern set by the presocratic philosopher Empedocles. Two powers shaped the cosmos
-- strife (νείκος) and love (φιλότης). It is a very old theory...

- Ah -- here come the ancestors, again. Everything is filtered through the past.

- They had a word for you, Rob: cynic!

- OK. They discovered everything. But what about you? Aren't you tired to live in their shade -- and at their expense? Furthermore I do not think you can identify yourselves with the ancient Greeks by right of inheritance. You have to earn that distinction.

- Are you a disciple of Fallmerayer -- the German historian who maintained that the modern Greeks had nothing in common with the ancient ones?

- Yes, and no. Biologically and genetically you know that any theory of continuity over two thousand years is nonsense. Not to say that any contention about Greek blood and purity of the race smacks of Nazi-Aryan racism. So if the idea is that you are the direct descendants -- forget it!

- But the language, Rob? It has subsisted over two thousand years!

- That is not enough. Language can be learned or transmitted. My associate, a Nigerian, speaks perfect Greek. Australians and Canadians, Americans and West Indians, speak English. Does that make them the grandsons of King Arthur? All Latin Americans speak Spanish without claiming to be Spaniards -- and Italians do not declare they are Romans, although their language is as close to Latin as yours to Ancient Greek.

- Rob, you like Greece! You left your bonny banks and braes to live in this country. What makes you so anti-Greek? You sound like the worst Greek-haters!

- It is because I like Greece and Greeks that I speak in this way. I think you have a problem of identity. Its roots are to be found mainly in your distorted relationship to your forefathers. Mind you, it is also our fault..

- Yours? Whom do you mean?

- Ours, West- Europeans, Non-Greeks. We taught you to pose as modern versions of Pericles. The late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries imitated and idealized antiquity -- we inoculated you with this romantic fallacy. Just think of the Bavarians of Ludwig and Otho -- their neo-classic ideals and buildings. To us you were not a new nation in its own right -- just a sequel. A neo-classic country with a neo-classic language, as phony as the buildings. The famous "catharevousa"!

- But, Rob, we feel Greek!

- Now that, is something else. Something I respect -- for you cannot question a person's inner truth. Only beware: it is not enough to feel -- you must prove it.

- You mean: prove worthy of the Ancients?

- Yes, in a way. Remember Isocrates' definition? Anyone is a Greek if he partakes of our culture. An Oxford don, studying the classics, may be (in a timeless sense) more Greek than you are. Not of course in real terms -- he will still have a British passport.

- I admit that the West did a lot to study, cultivate and revive our ancient culture. The French dug up Delphi and the Germans Olympia. Even we Greeks study our classics in foreign editions -- Oxford, Loeb, Teubner or Budé. But on the other hand the very same West has had a rather negative influence on our life, our subsistence as a nation...

- I will not contest this. It is in the nature of things. All small nations have -- at one time or another -- fallen victims to the Great Powers. Although I do not think that you have been treated so badly. You are the only nation in the area that has been constantly growing over the last hundred years. What I mainly wanted to say, is something else: that probably, the worst evil we Westerners inflicted upon you, was the result not of hate or indifference, but of love.

- Are you kidding?

- No. Like the parents who force their child into a profession of their liking, we tried to impose upon you a role of our choice. At the time of your liberation, we ignored your real personality and gave you a new glorious one. The Neo-Ancient Greeks. Mind you, you accepted the role willingly...

- With enthusiasm! Who would not like to be Achilles! The problems came later. This identification made us feel superior -- while, on the other hand, we saw that this superiority did not apply to our present position in the world. So we aquired, simultaneously, a superiority complex and an inferiority one.

- And there is nothing worse than a person who feels superior to find himself in such a situation. I don't blame you -- I blame us. You were a young nation, innocent and pure. It was natural for you to succumb to delusions of grandeur. Everybody wants to be somebody -- especially if he does not have to work for it. You fled into a splendid past. As for the present and the future...

- Probably it is what we are experiencing now. The disenchantment...

-It was forseeable: You were spoiled. Some of us, great admirers of your ancestors, gave you the impression you were something unique, a chosen people, the salt of the earth. Your own demagogues did the rest. They exploited your feelings and cast you often in the role "the supermen as underdogs."

- You mean "we, the special people, always wronged, etc."

- Exactly. Now, when you constantly complain that you are not loved -- as our friend Ion maintained -- you actually voice the disillusionment of a favorite child. Every time you react like spoiled brats, I feel it is to a great extend our fault.

- Three thousand year old kids! You mean we have never grown up?

- No, thank God. As in the times of Plato, you are “eternal children." This is your charm -- but also your nemesis.

- And so we always count on special treatment. We complain if everybody does not automatically accept our point of view (even if, as in the case of Macedonia, we have never stated it clearly). We demand priority in all issues...

- Of course! And you expect everybody to treasure and admire you. Every time a political leader or a journalist proves indifferent to your charm, there comes the label: ανθέλληνας anti-Greek!

- But we Greeks, we are something special, aren't we, said Ion. We are not like everybody else!

- Ion, if I did not know you well, I would call you a racist. You are not. You are a child -- and like every child you have been taught how important and unique you are. The same is true of (almost) all your compatriots.

- So, then, just like everybody else? There was disappointment in Ion's voice.

- You start like everybody else -- and you are what you become. It is up to you to mature into something special. You are not born that way. And you cannot inherit greatness. The son of a Nobel laureate is no more worth than the kid next door. I admit that it is very important to live in the same country and speak (almost) the same language as Plato and Aristoteles. But just as a starting point, not as an achievement.

- A starting point, said I, towards a new form of culture, incorporating vital elements of the past but actual and modern, that would be something different, original and genuinely our own.

- There are wonderful people and wonderful things in this country (Rob sipped a long draught of ouzo) really worth living for. But sometimes I think you appreciate the wrong items. You stick to shades of yesteryear, phantoms of glory, names, words, ideas -- and forget the essence. In times of crisis you should remember the wisdom of wily Odysseus -- not the boisterousness of Ajax. This is an excellent ouzo!

Saying that it was the west that Gave Greece the will and the way to once again become Greeks is TOTAL B.S! The Greeks retained these things throughout their history through the Byzantine and Ottoman periods and did not need the west to 'awaken' it! So many people think the the idea of revolution and democracy were brought to Greece by the events of the American and French revolutions but IN REALITY it was the Greeks who left the Greek lands after the Ottomans conquered WHO BROUGHT THOSE IDEAS TO THE WEST! It was the Greeks of the Diaspora and certain strong enclaves such as Mani in the Peleponnese who "awakened" the Greek people NOT THE WEST!

And to say that there is no genetic link between the Ancient and modern Greeks is pure RACISM. A strong culture NEVER DIES, thus if the culture never dies NEITHER does their DNA!

Now I do have to say it is partially correct that you can't be considered great without ever achieving something yourself. But many of todays Greeks have proven their worth just like many of us Greeks in here have!

We are Greek not only due to our DNA but also due to our love of our land, heritage, pride, language, SURVIVAL, passion, ingenuity, logic.

The ancient Greeks number ONE worship WAS OF THEIR ANCESTORS and that is why before doing anything each and everyday wether it be daily life, political or religious THEY ALWAYS MADE OFFERINGS TO THE SACRED FIRE! This fire represented their ancestors and their worship of them! So to tell a Greek that living in the past is detrimental to Greece and to Greeks is completely innacurate and very UN-GREEK!

here we go again

All this coming from a desperate man whos a true believer of the Illyrian - Albanian false connection and not to mention the Bulgarians clams to the makedones. Now I see a desperate man trying to clink on to a false reality.

Hey buddy tell the Chinese this and why not to the Iranians that they aren't the decentents of the the Persians.

Its obvious that you are a racist and a lover of the Turks as we've seen at network54.


YOU ARE NOT A GREEK

Biologically and genetically you know that any theory of continuity over two thousand years is nonsense.

The claims by modern Greeks concerning the connection to ancient Greeks compared to the claims of modern day Macedonians concerning their connection with the ancient Macedonians are the same. Both ARE TOTAL BS:clap2:

Biologically and genetically you know that any theory of continuity over two thousand years is nonsense.

The claims by modern Greeks concerning the connection to ancient Greeks compared to the claims of modern day Macedonians concerning their connection with the ancient Macedonians are the same. Both ARE TOTAL BS:clap2:

So who are the Modern Greeks and who are the modern Skopiani in your own words GrekSlav?

Biologically and genetically you know that any theory of continuity over two thousand years is nonsense.

The claims by modern Greeks concerning the connection to ancient Greeks compared to the claims of modern day Macedonians concerning their connection with the ancient Macedonians are the same. Both ARE TOTAL BS:clap2:
Unfortunately for Dhmou, Lithoxoou, Nakratzas and all the so-called progressivists that like to play it patriots while throwing the Nazi label with such ease, genetics do prove him and of course you who's clapping to be totally ignorant on the issue.

Was there any contribution to the Hellenic gene pool by all those that have past through these lands throughout history?

Of course there has been, but is this contribution to such an extent so that fools like Dhmou can claim that we are nothing more than a motley horde composed of many races (just a bit of Isokrates for ya) with no relation to our ancestors so that he may satisfy his employers at Soros corp ?

A long list of genetists yell hell no.

If you feel up to it, we can get onto the technical aspects of the issue.

Ask your self what is more important...your love of Greece or Greece's love of you. The second you do not have!!
If you love your country, protect her like our ancestors have done and like WE do now. Cherish the fact that God has given you a little corner of this planet that everyone admires..and do not give it away to anyone...especial the thives!!

So who are the Modern Greeks and who are the modern Skopiani in your own words GrekSlav?

They are Greeks and Macedonians, of course.

...fools like Dhmou...

Ahh, another outspoken Greek given a negative label by an ultranationalist. Very predictable of you.

You can not stand the fact that Dimou and other outspoken Greeks SPEAK what ultranationalists do not want to hear. Freedom of speech would never die. There will be more and more Greeks finding their true Greekness and speaking out.

They are Greeks and Macedonians, of course.

Took me twenty minutes to recover from laughing :laugh::laugh::laugh:

There is a problem. You see we are not here to see your views BUT facts Slav.

You did state you're here to voice your VIEWS now there is a huge difference btw facts and views. If you want to be taken seriously back them up because we're not here in the business to see or hear just VIEWS.

This site happens to be a very serious historical discussion forum and not some circus shows.

Fortune and fame awaits you Slav but not here wrong place.

As for freedom of speach hell why not allow that guy "what's his name again?" speak things like the jews are making things up. The holocaust never happened.

See you are wrong there is a limit to how much freedoms should be allowed to certain fools.

This site happens to be a very serious historical discussion forum and not some circus shows.


Then discuss instead of whipping your ultranationalist BS around in here and making it into a circus show.:nono:.

Then discuss instead of whipping your ultranationalist BS around in here and making it into a circus show.:nono:.


Yes we see this a lot from you, glad you agree. Well its now your task now to back up your nationalist BS to us from recent postings.

You can start by proving how are the Slavs connected to the ancient Macedonians and are not Greek?.

Remember we're not interested in your veiws. BUT facts.

...fools like Dhmou...

Ahh, another outspoken Greek given a negative label by an ultranationalist. Very predictable of you.

You can not stand the fact that Dimou and other outspoken Greeks SPEAK what ultranationalists do not want to hear. Freedom of speech would never die. There will be more and more Greeks finding their true Greekness and speaking out.

So now I'm titled ultranationalist because I'm not as gulible as you to believe whatever these sick fucks that put the $ above their country and history claim ?
Man you're no better than Dhmou, you just throw the nationalist or nazi card whenever you "progressive" ideals are not accepted but conveniently neglect to condemn the celebrations of extreme fanatism of your own breathen.
Now lets see why I justfully call Dhmou and his kind fools.


- Yes, in a way. Remember Isocrates' definition? Anyone is a Greek if he partakes of our culture. An Oxford don, studying the classics, may be (in a timeless sense) more Greek than you are. Not of course in real terms -- he will still have a British passport.

A very well known quote that has been intentionally distorted by Dhmou and his multi-culturalistic clan in an attempt to promote his progressivist agenda, which is directly related to erasing and rewriting history, ignoring borders that were protected with blood and of course spit on our ancestors who are only fit for hollywood productions.
Now child, for you and all those Dhmou fans out there read and learn.


The exact text is from Isokrates' Panegyrikos 50 as follows :

τοσοῦτον δ᾽ ἀπολέλοιπεν ἡ πόλις ἡμῶν περὶ τὸ φρονεῖν καὶ λέγειν τοὺς ἄλλους ἀνθρώπους, ὥσθ᾽ οἱ ταύτης μαθηταὶ τῶν ἄλλων διδάσκαλοι γεγόνασι, καὶ τὸ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ὄνομα πεποίηκε μηκέτι τοῦ γένους ἀλλὰ τῆς διανοίας δοκεῖν εἶναι, καὶ μᾶλλον Ἕλληνας καλεῖσθαι τοὺς τῆς παιδεύσεως τῆς ἡμετέρας ἢ τοὺς τῆς κοινῆς φύσεως μετέχοντας.


While we all know the conveniently circulated translation its interesting to see some other quotes from the text which will clarify its true meaning and Dhmou and Co's true objective.




If he was attempting to claim something like this, why would he previously say Panegyrikos 24 :

"for we did not become dwellers in this land by driving others out of it, nor by finding it uninhabited, nor by coming together here a motley horde composed of many races; but we are of a lineage so noble and so pure that throughout our history we have continued in possession of the very land which gave us birth, since we are sprung from its very soil and are able to address our city by the very names which we apply to our nearest kin."


Why speak of noble and pure lineage and not being composed of a motlley horde of many races if he was to accept anyone as a Helline just a couple of lines down only based on intelect and culture?

Panegyrikos 3

"I have come before you to give my counsels on the war against the barbarians and on concord among ourselves."

Why barbarians if all they had to do was to culturally assimilate them and by doing so become their pure blooded breathen ?
and he continues about barbarians when he's allegedly speaking about potential breathen:

"For we have reason to reproach the Lacedaemonians for this also, that in the interest of their own city they compel their neighbors to live in serfdom, but for the common advantage of their allies they refuse to bring about a similar condition, although it lies in their power to make up their quarrel with us and reduce all the barbarians to a state of subjection to the whole of Hellas."

Subjection, is not a term you'd use for your breathen now would you ?


Panegyrikos 157

"Of my own countrymen also I have a similar tale to tell. For towards all other peoples with whom they have been at war, they forget their past enmities the moment they have concluded peace, but toward the Asiatics they feel no gratitude even when they receive favors from them; so eternal is the wrath which they cherish against the barbarians .Our fathers, again, condemned many to death for the crime of Medism, and in their public assemblies even at the present day, before transacting any other business, they invoke curses on any citizen who proposes to send an embassy to negotiate peace with the Persians; and the Eumolpidae and the Ceryces, in the celebration of the mysteries, on account of th

Death, curses.. all this against those who could be converted into Hellenes..but why dear N.Dhmou ?


"So ingrained in our nature is our hostility to them that even in the matter of our stories we linger most fondly over those which tell of the Trojan and the Persian wars, because through them we learn of our enemies' misfortunes; and you will find that our warfare against the barbarians has inspired our hymns, while that against the Hellenes has brought forth our dirges; and that the former are sung at our festivals, while we recall the latter on occasions of sorrow."

No comment.


You see, fools like you that blindly follow Dhmou and Co, fail to understand that the true knowledge comes not from pseudo-interpreters like him but from actually comprehending the text itself. There is nothing, not one single text in the Hellenic anthology that presents the extent of "nationalism" seen in Isokrates' Panegyrikos.
In his entire text he's praising Athens and the Hellenes in an attempt to unite them and continuously degrading the rest of the world and this is evident for those that have read the entire quote instead of the nitpicked line Dhmou is intentionally taking out of context and promoting.


[49] "that whether men have been liberally educated from their earliest years is not to be determined by their courage or their wealth or such advantages, but is made manifest most of all by their speech, and that this has proved itself to be the surest sign of culture in every one of us, and that those who are skilled in speech are not only men of power in their own cities but are also held in honor in other states.
[50] "And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied to those who share our culture OR to those who share a common blood.


So what Isokrates is saying is that the name Hellines has become renowned not for who the people are but for their exellence in art, philosophy, speech etc and for this reason they are considered the teachers of the world.
This notion has literally nothing to do with accepting anyone as an equal and that is clearly celebrated throughout his entire speech.


-It was forseeable: You were spoiled. Some of us, great admirers of your ancestors, gave you the impression you were something unique, a chosen people, the salt of the earth. Your own demagogues did the rest. They exploited your feelings and cast you often in the role "the supermen as underdogs."

Yes indeed they did spoil us, all those great friends of this country like the ones Lord Byron mentions in his memoirs who considered us not fit to be liberated, like Virginia Woolf's nonsence about Athens who's population she dared to critisize for not comprehending her Erasmic pronounciation of Perkles' Hellenic, who had already adopted the Nordicist (see later NAZI) version of what the physical appearance of the Hellenes was, like Fallmerayer who hadn't even set foot in Hellas when he first published his trash or what about the French abbott M.Fourmont that literally destroyed all ancient artifacts in his path in Peloponessos because as he wrote to Luis XVI we weren't worth such beauties..

As for getting the impression of being special, personally I have no need to be elevated by any single one of these people that simply attempt to worship what they can not comprehend. For them I will always be an illiterate peasant, a piece of play-dough for their geopolitical plans while they are the highly sophisticated elite that considers Theophanos' baths and her cousins' forks an act of sorcery, that believe we are uncivilized peasants when they are still shitting on their palace floors and celebrate their kings fornicating with a horse and then drinking its blood.

Sorry but they didn't give me any impression, I got it all on my own.

They are Greeks and Macedonians, of course.


But by quoting that text you must agree that you think Greeks are not related to the Ancients, nor the Skopiani..So my question to you is who are the modern Greeks and Skopiani related to, what group, race, ethnicity do we belong to then? in your words

Biologically and genetically you know that any theory of continuity over two thousand years is nonsense.

This would be true for any people who have not had a continuous history, but the Greeks have remained exactly where they started. The language is there, the passion is there and our culture is there.

So do you truelly believe that the most populous group(Greeks) of the peninsula(modern Greece) were just eliminated due to some other groups coming into the area? What happened to those people? What happened to the Maniots? What happened to the Cretans? What happened to the Mytilinians? What happened to the Samians? Were they not isolated from the other non-Greek groups? Did their Greek DNA not survive?

People from Smyrna, Peloponesos, Thessaloniki are as Greek as you can get.

For the uneducated SlavSlav... Greeks descended from several tribes.

Dorians, Ionians, Mycenenas, Minoans, Aeolians.

If Coon & Luca Cavalli Sforza the world most reknowned anthorpologists on the planet whose texts are in every major university say Modern Greeks & Ancient Greek ethnic character is identicle anthropologically.

And if you go by the Neo-Nazi, Fallmeyer, FYROM theories that Modern Greeks have nothing to do with ancient Greeks, then who is the idiot here.. SLavSLav?

The Greeks
from C.S. Coon, The Races of Europe, Chapter XII, section 14


The title of this section is The Greeks, and not Greece, since from the mythical days of the Argonauts to the present, neither the peninsula of Hellas nor Ionia and the Aegean Islands have been large enough to hold the far-wandering Hellenes. Greek is a language and a civilization, the Greeks a people; the Greeks are the descendants of all the peoples who have adopted and retained that language and that civilization from classical times to the present. Some of these converts to Hellenicism were inhabitants of Asia Minor, others of Thrace and Byzantium, others of the lands bordering the Black Sea, especially the Crimea.

Into the peninsula of Greece itself, many thousands of Slavs wandered as immigrants during the maximum South Slavic expansion; the Turks brought colonists, including many Albanians, and whole districts of Boeotia and Attica and of other parts of Greece are today Albanian speaking. Romance-speaking shepherds, the Vlachs, have also made the slopes of the Pindus their seasonal pastures. Since the World War many of the Greeks living in Thrace and Asia Minor have been sent to Greek soil to live, while Turks and other Moslems have been in turn repatriated. Despite these attempts at producing ethnic order, much Greek territory, especially in Macedonia, remains ethnically heterogeneous. Furthermore, the number of Greeks who live abroad, be it in Egypt, East Africa, or in the New World, is so great that the Greeks are still almost an international people. Many of the Greeks leave home to make their fortunes on less stony soil, but many of them also return.

It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the Greek ethnic character. In classical times the Greeks included many kinds of people living in different places, as they do today. If one refers to the inhabitants of Attica during the sixth century, or to the Spartans of Leonidas, then the changes in these localities have probably not been nearly as great as that between the Germans of Tacitus and the living South Germans, to cite but a single example.

Within the peninsula of Hellas, despite the mobility of the Greeks to and from their country, the internal mobility has not been sufficient to break down strong local differentiations in head form. The Epirotes, like their neighbors the Toscs, have an extremely high cephalic index mean, 88, and there seems to be a strongly brachycephalic zone running down the western slopes of the mountain core from Albania to the Gulf of Corinth, and perhaps beyond. [130] It is an extension of the same zone which extends all the way from the Alpine racial center in France, and more specifically, of the population studied in the region of Gjinokaster in southernmost Albania. The Greeks of Macedonia, again, who live in settlements interspersed with those of Bulgars and of Turks, possess the usual West Balkan brachycephaly, with mean cephalic indices of 86 for Christians, and 84.6 for Moslems. Greeks from the northern shore of Asia Minor have a mean of 87, while those from the Black Sea coast in Rumania, and members of the colony in the Crimea, are low brachycephals, with a mean of 82.

In Greece itself, most of the Peloponnesus, Attica, Euboea, and the Ionian Isles are characterized by a mean cephalic index of 81 to 82; this is also true of the Greeks who are found abroad, as in America. Aside from local groups in regions which, in classical times, were not truly Greece, the modern Greeks are for the most part low brachycephals. In Thessaly a provincial mean of 77 has been reported; and Greeks from the shore of the Sea of Marmora have a mean of 79. There are still, therefore, local groups of Greeks who are largely long-headed.

The stature mean for Greeks in general runs about 167 cm., and there seems to be little regional variation; those in Asia Minor and in the Crimea are a millimeter shorter, those measured in Boston a millimeter taller. The Greeks are as tall as most South Germans or northern Frenchmen; their stature is too elevated for the prevalence, in partial brachycephalization, of a strong, small Mediterranean strain. About half of them have brunet-white or light brown skin color, the rest the usual pinkish-white of central and northern Europe; over 80 per cent have dark brown hair, the rest have hair evenly divided between black and the lighter shades of brown. Pronounced blondism, although rare, is not unknown. The beard is rarely lighter than the head hair, in contrast to the condition found among Ghegs and Montenegrins; the implication is that the dark brown hair of the majority of Greeks is a pure brunet condition. Over 65 pa-cent of Greeks have pure brown eyes, and most of these are dark brown: pure lights are sporadic, but there is a 15 per cent incidence of light-mixed iris forms.

The pigment ratios given above apply to Greeks as a whole; there is evidence, however, of considerable regional variation. The Macedonian Greeks are much lighter, especially those that are Moslem, while the Greeks of the lonian islands are darker, as are, in all probability, most Peloponnesians.

For a more detailed study of the Greeks, we may examine the series measured in Boston, which, although without doubt subjected to selective forces, does not seem too much at variance from native Greek sample for our purposes. The men measured came from all parts of Greece, and from Asia Minor. Their mean stature, 168 cm., is moderately tall; their bodily proportions are for the most part intermediate; the shoulders arc broad, the trunk length moderate, as shown by a relative sitting height of 52.9; the relative span is 104.

Their heads, with a mean cephalic index of 82, are long for brachycephals (189 mm.), and of moderate breadth (154 mm.); the head height of 127 mm. is moderately high. The occiput protrudes but little in most of the group; 40 per cent have lambdoidal flattening, while some degree of occipital flattening occurs in over 50 per cent. It is pronounced, however. in only about 20 per cent. Their facial breadths are: minimum frontal, 107 mm., bizygomatic, 142 mm., and bigonial, 111 mm.; the great breadth of the jaw, as compared with that of the forehead, is a Greek specialty, and is strongly contrasted with the inverted triangle face form of Albanian Dinarics. The face height is 124.4 mm., the upper face height 75.6 mm.; the facial index, 87, is mesoprosopic, the upper facial index, 53, a little high in comparison with the foregoing. The noses are both long (58.8 mm.) and moderately broad (37 mm.); the nasal index of 63.2, leptorrhine.

The dimensions given above are for the most part quite variable; a number of distinct types are included, but the metrical character of the group as a whole indicates a blending of Dinarics and Alpines with Atlanto-Mediterraneans, which is confirmed by the observational data to follow.

The head hair is straight in slightly more than half the group, wavy in most of the rest, but curly hair is not unusual. It is usually medium to fine in texture. With at least half of adult male Greeks, it is thin on the head, and about one out of five of any adult group is bald. In old age baldness affects the majority. The beard development is as a rule thicker than in most European groups, and the body hair is often abundant. The eyebrows are often thick, and are concurrent in 75 per cent of the group; the browridges are usually of moderate development. The foreheads give, in most cases, an appearance of great width, and are seldom more than very slightly sloping. The nasal characters of the Greeks are variable, but there are definite trends which pervade the whole group. The root is, as a rule, moderately high, and medium to broad; narrow roots, usual among most northern Europeans and among Dinarics, are rare. The bridge is of medium to great height, almost never low; the breadth is as a rule medium to broad. The nasal profile is straight in about 45 per cent of the group, convex in about 30 per cent, and concave in but 10 per cent, while the rest are wavy or concavo-convex. The tip is as a rule thick, and elevated more often than it is depressed. The nasal wings, as a rule medium, are flaring more often than compressed. On the whole few Greek noses can qualify as Dinaric in the strict sense; more are typically Alpine, while a straight-profiled, consistently wide form is the commonest.

There is nothing remarkable about the lips and mouth region of the Greeks; both membranous and integumental lips thicknesses, are of usual European dimensions, and eversion is as a rule slight to medium. The lip seam, however, is usually visible, and is sometimes prominently elevated. A slight degree of facial prognathism is found in nearly half the group; alveolar prognathism is rare. Typically Greek features are full, curved temples, full cheeks, a laterally prominent malar region, and strongly everted gonial angles. In these facial characters well over half show an extreme development for Europeans.

Within the Greek group, heavy beards, heavy browridges, and concurrent eyebrows tend to associate themselves with an Alpine type; there is also a linkage between tall stature, in the 170 cm. class, cephalic indices of about 80, straight noses, dark brown hair, and dark brown eyes. This last set of associations clearly denotes the presence of a strong Atlanto-Mediterranean element. There are also strong connections between black hair, occipital flattening, and narrow facial features, which means Dinaric or Armenoid. That the small amount of blondism among the Greeks is mostly Nordic in origin is indicated by its linkage with external eyefolds, relative thinness of beard, and absence of eyebrow concurrency.

The Greeks, in short, are a blend of racial types, of which two are most important; the Atlanto-Mediterranean and the Alpine. Dinaricisrn here is present, but not all pervading; true Alpines are commoner than complete Dinarics. The Nordic element is weak, as it probably has been since the days of Homer. The racial type to which Socrates belonged is today the most important, while the Atlanto-Mediterranean, prominent in Greece since the Bronze Age, is still a major factor, it is my personal reaction to the living Greeks that their continuity with their ancestors of the ancient world is remarkable, rather than the opposite.

The living inhabitants of Crete differ considerably from the mainland Greeks. [131] They are taller, with a mean stature of 169 cm., and mesocephalic, with a mean cephalic index of 79. In some districts, as at Pedhiádha, the mean is actually on the upper border of dolichocephaly, at 77. The heads of the mesocephalic Cretans are as large as those of Nordics or Atlanto-Mediterraneans; a mean length of 193 mm., and a breadth of 149 mm., characterizes the group with an index mean of 77.

In facial and nasal dimensions, the Cretans resemble the Greeks. They are, however, somewhat blonder; only 35 per cent have pure brown eyes, while about 7 per cent have eyes that are light or predominantly light; the rest are mixed, with dark mixture in the great majority. About 25 per cent have black hair, and about 50 per cent dark brown; 10 per cent are light brown or blond, the rest medium brown. As among Albanians and not among most mainland Greeks, the beards are much lighter; 40 per cent have blond or light brown mustaches, with an equal number black or dark brown. About one-sixth have light brown to very brunet-white skin color.

One special group, the Sphakiots, living near the western end of the south side of the island, differ from the other Cretans in a number of characters; they are very tall, with a mean stature of 175 cm., and meso- to sub-brachycephalic, with a mean cephalic index of 81.6. They have especially large heads, with a mean length of 191 mm. and breadth ci 155 mm.; their faces are longer than the others, and equally broad or broader. Morphologically Dinaric types are common among them; they may be compared with Montenegrins and the northernmost Ghegs. According to the general assumption of authorities on Crete, the Sphakioti are the partial descendants of the Dorians who invaded the island at the end of the Minoan period. That some of them do resemble the traditional Spartan type is very likely. One can only derive them from the north, from the region in which the larger branch of the Dinaric race was formed.

The living Cretans are for the most part Atlanto-Mediterraneans, and there has been no post-Dorian migration into the island which could have brought such a type in large numbers. The only logical explanation of its presence in Crete, formed on the basis of available data, is that some this element existed in Crete in Minoan, probably for the most part Middle and Late Minoan, times; that migrations from the Greek mainland at the time of the Minoan collapse may have brought more.

The fact that a larger number of Cretans are blond than is the case with Greeks is a matter that requires ample data and some analysis to explain. One may attribute much of the blondism, perhaps, to the invasion that brought the Sphakiots, while some of it must be inherent in the Atlanto-Mediterranean race. But the arrival of the early Greek-speakers may have brought blondism other than that borne by the brachycephals, and Crete is an island; it is a principle of insular anthropology, well borne out by the British Isles, that when a numerous group invades an island it has a better chance for survival than in a continental area where there is a nearby mountainous or forest-covered hinterland, to which earlier types may retreat and from which they may reëmerge.

The important discovery about Crete, however, is the fact that its population is mostly Atlanto-Mediterranean; this race seems to be almost equally important in most of Greece. It has also appeared in the Dinaric area, and in Serbia; we shall see more of it in the eastern Balkans.


Notes

130 A bibliography of works on the physical anthropology of the modern Greeks would include:

Apostolidès, BSAP, ser. 3, vol. 6, 1883, pp. 614-616.
Cucukala, G. J., AnthPr, vol. 8, 1930, pp. 12-136.
Hasluck, M. M., and Morant, G. M., Biometrika, vol. 21, 1929, pp. 325-334.
Hrdlicka, A., The Old Americans.
Koumaris,J., ACAP, 1931. Paris, 1931, pp. 218-221.
Neophytos, A. C., Anth, vol. 1, 1890, pp. 679-711; vol. 2, 1891, pp. 25-35.
Ornstein, ZFE, vol. 9, 1877, pp. (39)-(41); vol. 11, 1879, pp. (305)-(306).
Pittard, E., ASAG, vol. 1, 1914, pp. 7-36; BDAIP, vol. 25, 1915, pp. 447-454.
Schiff, F., ZFE, vol. 46, 1914, pp. 14-40.
Stephanos, C., DESM, ser. 4, 10, 1884, Article Grèce, p. 432.
Weisbach, A., MAGW, vol. 11, 1882, pp. 72-97.

Besides these published works reference has been made to a series of 113 Greeks measured in Boston in 1932, by Drs. B. Gardner, S. Kimball, M. Titiev, and Mr. E. Muller, as part of a graduate course in field methods, under the direction of the author.

131 Hawes, C. H., ARBS, vol. 14, 1909-10, pp. 258-280; RBAA, supplement, 1910.
Luschan, F. von, ZFE, vol. 45, 1913, pp. 21-393.
Rosinski, B., Kosmos, vol. 50, 1925, pp. 584-637.
Schiff, F., ZFE, vol. 46, 1914, pp. 8-13.

Greek Autosomal DNA

from LUCA CAVALLI SFORZA

A striking demonstration of the persistence of the Greek genetic signature through time can be found in [1]. The figure on the right is the 4th principal component of variation in Europe and shows a strong cline centered in Greece. Not only is the Greek genetic legacy clearly detectible today, but it is detectible among not only the Greeks, but all their neighboring populations of partial Greek ancestry:


http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/greekadna/greekcolonization.jpg

Yes we see this a lot from you, glad you agree. Well its now your task now to back up your nationalist BS to us from recent postings.

You can start by proving how are the Slavs connected to the ancient Macedonians and are not Greek?.

Remember we're not interested in your veiws. BUT facts.

You continue to ask me this question when I have already answered it nearly a half dozen times.

You are interested in my views just to have an excuse to attack me.

Actually, I can not answer your question, as indicated by my replies many times over. There is no connection with Macedonians and the ancient Macedonians, just as there are no connections to Greeks to the ancient Greeks. For us Greeks, a continuity of over two thousand years is impossible.

The Slavs are not Greek. Who said they were?

"- Ah -- here come the ancestors, again. Everything is filtered through the past."

Actually, I can not answer your question, as indicated by my replies many times over. There is no connection with Macedonians and the ancient Macedonians, just as there are no connections to Greeks to the ancient Greeks. For us Greeks, a continuity of over two thousand years is impossible.


Indeed you Slav have nothing to do with the ancients nor the region in general.
As for your parroting of Dhmou's ignorance, how about you back it up with something more than Dhmou's word on it. Get into the genetics and anthropologic aspect of the issue and back up your fav. writter's thesis by doing something more than parroting and throwing that nationalist label which does nothing but indicate your ignorance.

Indeed you Slav have nothing to do with the ancients nor the region in general.
As for your parroting of Dhmou's ignorance, how about you back it up with something more than Dhmou's word on it. Get into the genetics and anthropologic aspect of the issue and back up your fav. writter's thesis by doing something more than parroting and throwing that nationalist label which does nothing but indicate your ignorance.

I will not impersonate a scientist, like so many here. You post all those genetic analysis, and you do not even understand it.

I go by real life experiences, unbiased reading materials, what I hear, what I see, and what makes sense. I do not claim to be a scientist, a politician, a historian, nor am I an individual that lives in the past. My views have developed over the years, not from ultranationalistic teachings, but from LIVING!

I agree that the ultranationalism here is quite overwhelming and I have the power nor the will to stop it. But I can come here and show you contradiction in the ultranationalistic BS so prevalent here. It will probably fall on deaf ears, unless there are some sensible people around that are willing to listen, calculate and discuss, instead of finding every possible way to slam someone because of their views.

Mr. Dimou talks sense, and makes contradiction to the ultranationalistic BS. It is why you call him what you do. It is quite inconceivable in the tiny little brains here that a Greek would speak out. Well, he does, and there are many more, all getting the "Anti-Hellene" label.

Bravo, my fellow Greeks. You have outdone yourselves.

I will not impersonate a scientist, like so many here. You post all those genetic analysis, and you do not even understand it.

a) I didn't post anything yet and since you ignore or intentionally claim so to avoid being ridiculed, I find no reason to take it any further, for you have proven a parrot that simply repeats what he finds and not what he truelly comprehends.
b) trying to apply your own deficiencies and ignorance to others is at least pathetic and indicates total lack of argumentative skills to support your thesis. Furthermore, it would be sane to stick to what you know and not what you fallaciously believe others do or do not.

I go by real life experiences, unbiased reading materials, what I hear, what I see, and what makes sense. I do not claim to be a scientist, a politician, a historian, nor am I an individual that lives in the past. My views have developed over the years, not from ultranationalistic teachings, but from LIVING!

And your so-called "life expiriences" assist you in determining the correctness of a statement that should be purely based on scientific data in what way exactly, especially when you admit to totally ignore the field in question?

How exactly is your higher state of living compared to pure scientific knowledge which you dare degrade by titling it nationalistic simply because you have proven totally incompotent of reaching the level of such understanding throughout the pathetic little life you find such pride in ?

I agree that the ultranationalism here is quite overwhelming and I have the power nor the will to stop it. But I can come here and show you contradiction in the ultranationalistic BS so prevalent here. It will probably fall on deaf ears, unless there are some sensible people around that are willing to listen, calculate and discuss, instead of finding every possible way to slam someone because of their views.

So those that simply do not listen to what they find in some blog, those who choose to scrutinize and percolate every idea presented before them prior to adopting it are ultranationalists..
Please do shine on us oh' superior being, please be the beacon that leads us out of this tunnel of nationalistic ignorance and tell us, if we that dare scrutinize and percolate every idea prior to adopting or supporting it are ultranationalists, what are the individuals that do not follow our methodology but simply accept whatever they read hands down indifferent of its historic correctness or actual motives ?

Mr. Dimou talks sense, and makes contradiction to the ultranationalistic BS. It is why you call him what you do. It is quite inconceivable in the tiny little brains here that a Greek would speak out. Well, he does, and there are many more, all getting the "Anti-Hellene" label.

Nikos Dhmou talks crap, as already proven he twists and distorts history to support his pseudo-progressive views and does not even find shame in distorting historic texts and events.
But do shine on the tiny brains, be the beacon and assist them in comprehending how on earth an individual like you that totally ignores history, texts and science can dare critisize us that do for rejecting his article ?

You clapped when you read his crack about non-continuety, yet when requested to debate it, you hid behind your ignorance, you spoke of nationalists when I called him a fool, yet couldn't make the slightest comment when his intentional distortion of texts and his twisted perception of foreign veiws were indicated..

So little fool, will you finally support your mentor with some facts or will you too follow his lead of intentional distortions and continue to accuse us of calling him anti-Hellene when no such thing was posted ?

For us Greeks, a continuity of over two thousand years is impossible.


GreekSlav,

please point to us where the continuity of the Greeks was broken and what about the groups of Greeks discussed by myself and others in here!

To say that a people with a strong culture could not survive 2000 years is utter ridiculousness. The Romans adopted Greek customs and language and we all know that Greeks were still around for the 400 years of Ottoman rule so please tell us what happened to cause the non-continuation of the Greeks population to occur?

The only continuity the modern Greeks have with the ancients is language. The Greek language has mutated a bit but no other language has ever branched from it. The Greek language has followed a straight line since its birth, with mutations to make the language easier for the masses.

I will not impersonate a scientist, like so many here

You were the first one in this thread impersonate a scientist with unequivocle claims about the genetics of modern Greeks didnt you?

I usually steer clear of genetic/ "racial" arguments but nonetheless my opinion is that while Greeks are far from pure genetically, they are still possessing of a genetic connection to their ancient ancestors. Although, granted I have a limited knowledge of genetics, this is what I've ascertained from the genetic studies I've see and is whats to be expected when modern Greeks have a continuous identity and language for over 3000 years on our penninsula.

FYROM has none of these things.

GreekSlav;30283]You continue to ask me this question when I have already answered it nearly a half dozen times.

A dozen times? Where bre show me on here. Are you on drugs? :wacko:


You are interested in my views just to have an excuse to attack me.

Look above a post made by me stating we are not here to see or hear your views but facts, where is this absurd paranoia coming from you now?

Actually, I can not answer your question, as indicated by my replies many times over. There is no connection with Macedonians and the ancient Macedonians, just as there are no connections to Greeks to the ancient Greeks. For us Greeks, a continuity of over two thousand years is impossible.

Nice views coming from you without backed up facts, meaning don't just state some outrages claims without backing them up. OMG am teaching this man how to converse not well. :nono:

Hey we need some backing up to do here not opinions or views because that's what they are, opinions and views alone. Don't blame me from mocking you since you highly disrespect your self how am I to show it to you? remember it's earned and you've earned lots of deserespect here with your nationalist absurdities.


The Slavs are not Greek. Who said they were?

You are by naming them as Macedonians those Bulgarians or Slavs, why are you using an Hellenic / Greek name as an identifier? for them to separate the Slavs / Bulgarians from the Greeks on here. :nono:

My silly friend hate to break it for you again to separate the Macedonians from the Greeks is not only absurd but impossible as history shows and is written on stone, are we now to believe that the Athenians are not Greek also LMAO

Macedonia was never a nation "this fake one is not recognized" and was as a state in ancient times now it's a province.

Lipon se agrapsa sta arxidia mou pseftarh. \ /

The only continuity the modern Greeks have with the ancients is language. The Greek language has mutated a bit but no other language has ever branched from it. The Greek language has followed a straight line since its birth, with mutations to make the language easier for the masses.


Thats a big fucking link my man. It's by no means a minor detail.


It means whoever mixed with us was always absorbed into us, Hellenized, became part of the majority. Thats why there is a link via language and an obvious link to the Ancients. You don't speak the same language for thousands of years and have no fucking link, it just sounds STUPID to say.


Thats why there is an OBVIOUS stronger link of Greeks to Ancient Greeks than there is to a bunch of Slavic speakers who claim links to Ancient Greek speakers like the Macedonians.

Ahhh, I see. Always ultranationalistic reasoning involved with justifying your 'facts".

Baaaa! Nonsense. Bucket of bilge is all it is!

Morphesau, I said half a dozen times. It does not mean a dozen, which is 12. It means 6. And I said nearly half a dozen times, which means less than six. Maybe you need glasses?

You were the first one in this thread impersonate a scientist with unequivocle claims about the genetics of modern Greeks didnt you?

I usually steer clear of genetic/ "racial" arguments but nonetheless my opinion is that while Greeks are far from pure genetically, they are still possessing of a genetic connection to their ancient ancestors. Although, granted I have a limited knowledge of genetics, this is what I've ascertained from the genetic studies I've see and is whats to be expected when modern Greeks have a continuous identity and language for over 3000 years on our penninsula.

FYROM has none of these things.

If you believe that, you must believe the claims made by the Macedonians on their connection to the ancient Macedonians. You can not believe in only some bs, but all of it.:laugh:

The only continuity the modern Greeks have with the ancients is language. The Greek language has mutated a bit but no other language has ever branched from it. The Greek language has followed a straight line since its birth, with mutations to make the language easier for the masses.

Really??

So the Ancient Greeks who became Christians are no longer Greek?
We do have the continuation of the SAME religion since it's inception, but you say only the language connects us?

What about the genetic studies that show the modern Greeks have a very high percentage of DNA which derives from the Ancients?

What about inhabiting the same land for more than 4000 years?

What about the vast number of Pontians who returned to their original homeland 2800 years after they left? You believe the Pontians are Greek so do you deny their continuity as well?

Does that mean nothing to you?

The Byzantine Empire may be considered a Roman Empire, but how many Ethnic Romans do you think there were? The predominant ethnic group in the region during the Byzantine period was Greek. That is the main reason why the Greek language became the official language of the empire.

So what exactly happened to all those Greeks? Did they just dissapear or get swallowed up by a lesser population and language group?

If you believe that, you must believe the claims made by the Macedonians on their connection to the ancient Macedonians. You can not believe in only some bs, but all of it.:laugh:

The comparing of Maks with the Greeks is like comparing Passion fruit to a grape. We all know that there was no such thing as an "Ethnic Macedonian" until the late 1800's, before that they were Bulgarians, with some Serbian mixed in. So how exactly do the Maks connect with the Ancient Macedonians?

Greeks on the other hand have been a continuous Ethnicity in the region since ancient times and they speak the same language as the Ancient Greeks and the Ancient Macedonians. Where is any of the same connections for the Maks?

If you believe that, you must believe the claims made by the Macedonians on their connection to the ancient Macedonians. You can not believe in only some bs, but all of it.:laugh:

Explain your logic!

These "Macedonians" have no linguistic or cultural connnection to antiquity. Neither have a people existed with a Macedonian identity continuously, on the contrary all neutral obsevers consider such an ethnic identity to have emerged in the 19th century from within the Bulgarian population of the region.

All the population of the world has certain common features in their gene pools. Greeks have more common genetic features (not racial because Greeks arent a race, in fact there are no such thing as races) with ancient Greeks.

The population of Greece, while not surprisingly mixed with surrounding influences, contains a certain level of genetic integrity in relation to the Greeks of antiquity. This is not a surprise itself given their anthropological connection.

Ross Lindon, Genetics and contemporary anthropology, 2003, p194

Really?? So the Ancient Greeks who became Christians are no longer Greek?

:lol:Unbelievable. Did I say that? Maybe your mind interpreted it that way but its so off base.

Let's see. Greeks have lived in the lands of Hellas since the 17th century B.C. Your comment tends to lean toward the idea that Greeks have been Christians since then. Hmmmm, not quite right, my friend. Greeks went from the Hellenic culture (pagans), to a mixture of Christianity and Hellenic culture before becoming pure Christians around the 3rd century A.D (time line an approximation.)

So, yes, the Greeks did not have continuity with Christianity. Greeks were already around 2000 years before they became Christians.

We do have the continuation of the SAME religion since it's inception, but you say only the language connects us?

You are not thinking straight. Yes, our religion is historical and an unbroken continuation of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ and the Twelve Apostles, having maintained unbroken the link between its clergy and the Apostles by means of Apostolic Succession and Sacred Tradition, since Greeks became Christians to present, even after 1054. Being that the conversion of Greeks to Christianity occured 20 centuries or more after the Greeks occupied the lands of Hellas, then there is no continuity of our religion with the ancients.

What about the genetic studies that show the modern Greeks have a very high percentage of DNA which derives from the Ancients?

How does one know that our DNA today compares very closely to the ancients when we have no DNA from the ancients to compare with?

What about inhabiting the same land for more than 4000 years?

Not quite the same land, my friend. It has shrunk significantly.

What about the vast number of Pontians who returned to their original homeland 2800 years after they left? You believe the Pontians are Greek so do you deny their continuity as well?

Why do you separate the Pontians from my use of the word "Greek". I do not distinquish between the different types of Greek. Greeks are Greeks, no matter where you came from.

CONTINUITY WITH THE LANGUAGE PREVAILS

How does one know that our DNA today compares very closely to the ancients when we have no DNA from the ancients to compare with?

More than 2.000 graveyards in Greece (mainland,Ionia,Creta,Macedonia ctr) provided us with ancients' DNA!

Hey GS. I don't want to dump on you so please don't take this the wrong way, but what's up with all this self-loathing? No insulting or any nonsense like that. I'm not 18 and ready to rumble with anyone. I'm just reading some of your posts and think there is much more to your attitude than you care to share with us. Personally, Greeks piss me off, but Skops, and ANglos who are stupid do so even more. SO I leave you to these Greeks and to your Skops and to the Anglos and Irish who hated you while growing up and hope that one day all the pretense is set aside and we communicate and connect like people who actually want to move forward. I bet we have more in common than you think, but I don't see you trying to connect. Now in your defence, I haven't read all your posts, so I apologize if I am mistaken, but the impression I get is quite the contrary. I am not doing this to pick a fight, but it's just not all adding up mate.

Hey GS. I don't want to dump on you so please don't take this the wrong way, but what's up with all this self-loathing? No insulting or any nonsense like that. I'm not 18 and ready to rumble with anyone. I'm just reading some of your posts and think there is much more to your attitude than you care to share with us. Personally, Greeks piss me off, but Skops, and ANglos who are stupid do so even more. SO I leave you to these Greeks and to your Skops and to the Anglos and Irish who hated you while growing up and hope that one day all the pretense is set aside and we communicate and connect like people who actually want to move forward. I bet we have more in common than you think, but I don't see you trying to connect. Now in your defence, I haven't read all your posts, so I apologize if I am mistaken, but the impression I get is quite the contrary. I am not doing this to pick a fight, but it's just not all adding up mate.


It is simple actually, and you nailed it right on the head. I have always been appalled at so many Greeks with their silly attitudes on these forums. So many ultranationalists all clumped in one space, when in real life, with my Greek friends, it is so different. These kinds of Greeks, in my view, degrace the rest of the Greeks and give them a bad name. They have no where else but the internet. I make statements and these kinds of Greeks twist it to mean something else or purposely interpret it wrong in their posts to troll. Only the very few on these forums actually try to discuss something without attacking the individual for their views. How can this be a forum of discussion? I came here to discuss, not to be attacked due to my views. As long as this is so, it will be difficult for me to make an attempt at discussion, even though I continue to try.

Do not get me wrong. It is not only the Greeks. Macedonians do the same, but in my experience, to a lesser degree. But they can be ultranationalistic idiots just as well.

It's disgraceful to both peoples.

But no one hated me and I hate no one. I merely am appalled at the disgraceful conduct by some of my fellow Greeks and Macedonians. I grew up with Greeks, Macedonians, Albanians, Georgians, Turks and many more. We never had any issues about each other that I can remember.

You missed it, then. I tried to connect in the beginning, but the attacks were already well on their way. It's sad really, that many here are incapable of discussing anything meaningful, without trolling and attacking.

By the way, I did not come here with an attitude. The attitude was directed at me. I am merely trying to keep my head above all the BS. I think that I am maintaining good composure (except for one time) compared to so many here. Have you read their posts? No, I guess not. Have you ever asked all these Greeks the same question you asked me? No, I guess not. So, my friend, is it safe to say that they can get away with their attitude without comment, but I can not?

I am only explaining and asking, Philip........

Do not get me wrong. It is not only the Greeks. Macedonians do the same, but in my experience, to a lesser degree. But they can be ultranationalistic idiots just as well.

.

MACEDONIANS AND GREEKS ARE THE SAME PEOPLE!
DO YOU MAYBE MEAN THE SLAVOSKOPIANS?
OF COURSE THEY DO IT TO A LESSER DEGREE...THEY ARE A LOT LESS THAN GREEKS AND THEY KNOW THEY ARE WRONG ABOUT THE ISSUE!

Funny how you call everyone here ultra nationalist.

Firstly I am waiting for you to scientifically debunk the paper from Coon & Sforxa.

Secondly it's funny how you spew from your mouth how ultra nationlist everyone is seeing as though you are harbouring ideas from Neo-Nazis.

Funny how you call everyone here ultra nationalist.

Firstly I am waiting for you to scientifically debunk the paper from Coon & Sforxa.

Secondly it's funny how you spew from your mouth how ultra nationlist everyone is seeing as though you are harbouring ideas from Neo-Nazis.

Where did I say everyone is an ultranationalist? If I misled you, I apologize. But there are many of them here. Can an ultranationalist actually understand this and see for themselves? No, Mygdonia.

The comparing of Maks with the Greeks is like comparing Passion fruit to a grape. We all know that there was no such thing as an "Ethnic Macedonian" until the late 1800's, before that they were Bulgarians, with some Serbian mixed in. So how exactly do the Maks connect with the Ancient Macedonians?

Greeks on the other hand have been a continuous Ethnicity in the region since ancient times and they speak the same language as the Ancient Greeks and the Ancient Macedonians. Where is any of the same connections for the Maks?

Now we are talking, Spartan. You nailed it when you speak of "continuous ethnicity" with the Greeks. That's the key. It is not DNA that is continuous with the Greeks since the ancients, but ethnicity. Ethnicity, Greek for example, is when someone is Greek by virtue of believing and calling himself Greek and of acting in ways that validate his Greekness. You hear this being spoken of all the time here on these forums, for instance, in connection with some Macedonians living in Greece.

I will agree that the Greek ethnicity has been continuous for 4000 or more years.

The comparing of Maks with the Greeks is like comparing Passion fruit to a grape.

So, in a way, related, since both the passion fruit and grape are fruit.

Secondly it's funny how you spew from your mouth how ultra nationlist everyone is seeing as though you are harbouring ideas from Neo-Nazis.

Very true Mygdonia, but it seems that his mentors never told him that the very first thing the Nazis did was to spread their propaganda of discontinuety in Hellas and theories of the population's total alienation to its ancestors so that they'd justify whatever claims Adolf had on our culture and legitimize their occupation of our lands. Nothing more than the revival of the Fallmerayer thesis when they were looking upon the Balkans and specifically Hellas as a geopolitical necessity.

Now we are talking, Spartan. You nailed it when you speak of "continuous ethnicity" with the Greeks. That's the key. It is not DNA that is continuous with the Greeks since the ancients, but ethnicity. Ethnicity, Greek for example, is when someone is Greek by virtue of believing and calling himself Greek and of acting in ways that validate his Greekness. You hear this being spoken of all the time here on these forums, for instance, in connection with some Macedonians living in Greece.

I will agree that the Greek ethnicity has been continuous for 4000 or more years.

So how does this agree to your previous claim on page one in which you compared us to your breathen and spoke of BS or is it that you probably forget all about your clapping ??

Furthermore, do you actually comprehend the meaning of the term "ethnic", do you understand that "ethnic" is primarily a racial denomination and since it is racial exactly how does this agree with all you've been saying in this thread ?

The comparing of Maks with the Greeks is like comparing Passion fruit to a grape.

So, in a way, related, since both the passion fruit and grape are fruit.

Same like humans(Greeks) and monkeys(you know who) are both animals!

So how does this agree to your previous claim on page one in which you compared us to your breathen and spoke of BS or is it that you probably forget all about your clapping ??

Furthermore, do you actually comprehend the meaning of the term "ethnic", do you understand that "ethnic" is primarily a racial denomination and since it is racial exactly how does this agree with all you've been saying in this thread ?


Yes, I comprehend the meaning of "ethnic", but some do not, and confuse ethnicity with race. There is quite a difference. It is true that race and ethnicity share an idealogy of common ancestry BUT there are differences. For example, you can identify ethnically as Greek and Macedonian, but you have to be essentially either black or white as a race. You can only have one race, while you can claim multiple ethnic affiliations.

You have no control over your race, but whatever your race is, you can affiliate with all kinds of ethnicities. Let's say a Korean boy is born in Korea but orphaned and taken in by Greek parents in Greece. Ethnically, he feels Greek: he eats Greek food, he speaks Greek, he knows Greek history and culture. He knows nothing about Korean history and culture. But when he comes to the United States, England, Australia, Europe, etc he is treated racially as Asian.

There is a big difference between race and ethnicity.

Nope, sorry but I'll disagree.
You are taking the broader meaning of "race" as in Asian, White, Black.. "ethnic" is a term which defines a group of people which firstly are connected by common ancestry and then we add the fact that they may share cultural, linguistic..etc ties which under no circumstance is an asbsolute indicator.

Your example of a Korean is not that of "ethnic" but of national, the boy will always be racially Asian and ethnically Korean but due to his cultural assimilation will bear the Hellenic nationality.

As an example that "ethnic" isn't a cultural but a common ancestral definition and since you mentioned US..etc. just think of exactly how culturally different the Hellenes of Hellas are to some of the racially Hellenic but culturally influenced by foreign norms (in some cases beyond recognition) Hellenes abroad.
Are even the beyond recognition culturally influenced Hellenes (which in some cases totally ignore the language) abroad not defined by the term "ethnic" Hellenes simply due to the indesputable fact of sharing a common ancestor and thus racial ties ?

Your example of a Korean is not that of "ethnic" but of national, the boy will always be racially Asian and ethnically Korean but due to his cultural assimilation will bear the Hellenic nationality

In the case of this Korean boy, he may claim Greek nationality because he grew up and lives in Greece.

Nationality refers to the existence as a nation; a stable historically developed community of people with a territory, economic life, distinctive culture and language in common, forming a society under one government.

You and I are of the white race (I am assuming you are) with Greek ethnicites. A Greek may claim Greek nationality if they were born and live in Greece or any of its territories.

You may be able to claim the nationality but many Greeks can not because they were born and live outside of Greece.

There lies the distinction with nationality.

Ahhh, I see. Always ultranationalistic reasoning involved with justifying your 'facts".

Baaaa! Nonsense. Bucket of bilge is all it is!




Why is something factual nationalistic?


Do Greeks speak the same language as Ancient Greeks? Yes.


Thats a nationalistic statement?


Do the Slavs of FYROM speak the same language as Ancient Macedonians? No.

Is that a nationalistic statement?


:huh:

In the case of this Korean boy, he may claim Greek nationality because he grew up and lives in Greece.
No objection to that as long as you see that ethnic doesn't apply here as the correct definition.

Nationality refers to the existence as a nation; a stable historically developed community of people with a territory, economic life, distinctive culture and language in common, forming a society under one government.
True but government aside, traditions culture and language are necessities, origin is not. A fine example being the US. A multitude of ethnicities sharing the above mentioned common factors.

You and I are of the white race (I am assuming you are) with Greek ethnicites. A Greek may claim Greek nationality if they were born and live in Greece or any of its territories.
True but not related to your example of Korean above.

You may be able to claim the nationality but many Greeks can not because they were born and live outside of Greece.

Indeed, nationally not Hellenic, but even if he may lack cultural and linguistic affiliation to the nation, his ethnic background remains Hellenic strictly due to ancestral ties.

Why is something factual nationalistic?


Do Greeks speak the same language as Ancient Greeks? Yes.


Thats a nationalistic statement?


Do the Slavs of FYROM speak the same language as Ancient Macedonians? No.

Is that a nationalistic statement?





:wacko:

:wacko:
meaning?

No objection to that as long as you see that ethnic doesn't apply here as the correct definition.

In this case, nationality and ethnicity go hand in hand, but not race.

True but government aside, traditions culture and language are necessities, origin is not. A fine example being the US. A multitude of ethnicities sharing the above mentioned common factors.

If they came to America, and became American citizens, their nationality changes but not ethnicity. They moved out of their original country of nationality and became citizens of another. They do not forget their original nationalities history, language and culture. They still have their ethnicity and think this way. Only difference is their nationality they choose to adopt when moving to America. The Korean boy that is Greek is just that. A Greek. He knows nothing of his original nationality. For him, he is Greek, nothing else. He does not know any other ethnicity other than Greek.

True but not related to your example of Korean above.

But he lives in Greece, under the Greek government, thinks Greek, has a Greek passport, is a Greek citizen, and knows nothing of his original nationality. He is a Greek national.

meaning?

Not addressed to you. Edited post to clarify receipient.

In this case, nationality and ethnicity go hand in hand, but not race.
Ethnicity only with the meaning of cultural assimilaton and not racial descendance hence only national.


If they came to America, and became American citizens, their nationality changes but not ethnicity. They moved out of their original country of nationality and became citizens of another. They do not forget their original nationalities history, language and culture. They still have their ethnicity and think this way. Only difference is their nationality they choose to adopt when moving to America. The Korean boy that is Greek is just that. A Greek. He knows nothing of his original nationality. For him, he is Greek, nothing else. He does not know any other ethnicity other than Greek.
This is exactly to what I objected above.
If he leaves andmoves to the US, indeed he does lose his nationality, but lets say he has kinds, his kids have kids, and these grand-children of the original ethnic Hellene and not simply national, totally ignore who their grand-dad was, where he came from and what ideals and morals he brought with him. The very fact that they descend directly from him, make them ethnic Hellenes.

I have a cousin thats so alienated from Hellas, that when I told her that according to mythology, Pilion is the mountain where the Centaurs used to live. she dared to ask me if Xena lived around here (Volos), . :wacko:

Even though she's totally ignorant, even though she totally ignores the language, is she not ethnic Hellene simply based on her father's descent ?


But he lives in Greece, under the Greek government, thinks Greek, has a Greek passport, is a Greek citizen, and knows nothing of his original nationality. He is a Greek national.

National yes, ethnic no.



PS: do try to use the "quote" function, its alot easier to read.

It is simple actually, and you nailed it right on the head. I have always been appalled at so many Greeks with their silly attitudes on these forums. So many ultranationalists all clumped in one space, when in real life, with my Greek friends, it is so different. These kinds of Greeks, in my view, degrace the rest of the Greeks and give them a bad name. They have no where else but the internet. I make statements and these kinds of Greeks twist it to mean something else or purposely interpret it wrong in their posts to troll. Only the very few on these forums actually try to discuss something without attacking the individual for their views. How can this be a forum of discussion? I came here to discuss, not to be attacked due to my views. As long as this is so, it will be difficult for me to make an attempt at discussion, even though I continue to try.

Do not get me wrong. It is not only the Greeks. Macedonians do the same, but in my experience, to a lesser degree. But they can be ultranationalistic idiots just as well.

It's disgraceful to both peoples.

But no one hated me and I hate no one. I merely am appalled at the disgraceful conduct by some of my fellow Greeks and Macedonians. I grew up with Greeks, Macedonians, Albanians, Georgians, Turks and many more. We never had any issues about each other that I can remember.

You missed it, then. I tried to connect in the beginning, but the attacks were already well on their way. It's sad really, that many here are incapable of discussing anything meaningful, without trolling and attacking.

By the way, I did not come here with an attitude. The attitude was directed at me. I am merely trying to keep my head above all the BS. I think that I am maintaining good composure (except for one time) compared to so many here. Have you read their posts? No, I guess not. Have you ever asked all these Greeks the same question you asked me? No, I guess not. So, my friend, is it safe to say that they can get away with their attitude without comment, but I can not?

I am only explaining and asking, Philip........

Easy GS, you were judging me and putting me down. No place for that here. I'll overlook that this time. I just don't agree with everytning you say. I think you are leaving many facts out. I know you put on a sheepish veil then throw a few passive aggressive jabs. I don't care if you goosestep all across Skopjia and say you are the decendants of Jesus Christ, that is your business, but please, spare me this passive aggressive arrogance.

I too am appalled, by many things. Your deflection is one thing. I have read some posts on those other sites that are less nationalistic in your view. Talking about taking up arms and killing Greeks. What do these Greeks speak of, meeting at the tavern and sipping on coffee and beers till they convince you you are wrong. hahaha Show me where they have spoken of killing.Come on GS, you are trying desperately to potray yourself as an elightened person, lets act as such. No veiled punches. Lets see what common ground we have. Tell me what you think we have in common. I have many things I would share. To be honest, you are not a safe person to share anything with, that is at this point in time. The reaosn is you manipulate and take a victim stance, then you make some insulting attacks while making it look like another persons fault. Sorry man, I know that sounds harsh, but I am trying to clear the air here and start a dialogue. I do not feel you are doing the same. I thought by your avtar we could, but at this point, I am mistaken, I had that very same avtar (last year I think) on this site before you joined. Imagine that.

Now listen, I am weary of the victim attitude so bury it. If you ever insult my integrity again, I will ask you to leave. I do not tolerate this sort of arrogance. Until now GS, I liked reading your posts. For the record, we have suspended many Greeks here. One more thing for the record, unless referring to Macedonians, don't use the name, and you know what I mean.

Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are fighting and insulting you. That is far fetched at best. I extend you the invite to start over and no more of this nonsense.

Why is something factual nationalistic?


Do Greeks speak the same language as Ancient Greeks? Yes.


Thats a nationalistic statement?


Do the Slavs of FYROM speak the same language as Ancient Macedonians? No.

Is that a nationalistic statement?





:wacko:



Is this suppose to be some kind of response? Quoting what I say and say nothing yourself? WTF is this?

Yes, Greeks speak the same language as ancient ones. (but a different dialect)

Yes, Macedonians are still speak the same language as ancient macedonians which was and is a Greek dialect. macedonians still proudly saying Thessaloniki.

No, SlavoSkopians speak a Slavic language which is a Bulgarian dialect.

You seem incapable of grasping the point I was making!
So let me break it down for you.

Really?? So the Ancient Greeks who became Christians are no longer Greek?

:lol:Unbelievable. Did I say that? Maybe your mind interpreted it thatway but its so off base.

1)You claim that there is no continuity of the Greeks for the past 2000 years.

So I replied that there is and that the Greeks became christian over time. But does that mean that the Greeks were no longer Greeks genetically? Religion has NOTHING to do with the genetic make-up of a people. This is why I brought up the Pontians.

Let's see. Greeks have lived in the lands of Hellas since the 17th century B.C. Your comment tends to lean toward the idea that Greeks have been Christians since then. Hmmmm, not quite right, my friend. Greeks went from the Hellenic culture (pagans), to a mixture of Christianity and Hellenic culture before becoming pure Christians around the 3rd century A.D (time line an approximation.)

Actually it is as far back as 2200 B.C.E based only on linguistics. MM, NO! my comment does not imply that the Greeks were Christian since the beginning. I made the comment about Christianity to ask if you think that because the Greeks adopted Christianity they were no longer Greek? Also since the Greeks started to become christianized around 1700 years ago and they have held the same religion since, that it MAKES A CONTINUITY for close to 2000 years. That was my point! Oh and by the way the last hold outs of the ancient religion was in the 9th century A.C.E in Mani(southern Peloponnese).

So I wonder, do you believe that the Maniots who have only been christian for 1100+ years and who were isolated are not the same as their ancestors?

We have Religion and language for close to 2000 years now, but according to what you are saying it does not constitute continuity.


We do have the continuation of the SAME religion since it's inception, but you say only the language connects us?

[B]You are not thinking straight. Yes, our religion is historical and an unbroken continuation of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ and the Twelve Apostles, having maintained unbroken the link between its clergy and the Apostles by means of Apostolic Succession and Sacred Tradition, since Greeks became Christians to present, even after 1054. Being that the conversion of Greeks to Christianity occured 20 centuries or more after the Greeks occupied the lands of Hellas, then there is no continuity of our religion with the ancients.

What does lack of continuity of the Ancient Religion have to do with continuity of ethnicity and genetics? This is once again why I mention the Pontians.

There are Pontians in Turkey today that are muslim, but does that make them non-Greek? Also are the Pontians not of pure Greek blood that has existed since they settled on the Black Sea coast in the 8th century B.C?
If they are does that not equal CONTINUITY?

How does one know that our DNA today compares very closely to the ancients when we have no DNA from the ancients to compare with?

WHAT?? are you serious? Do you not know about genetic studies performed on ancient remains? just watch some TV from time to time especially the History Channel or History International, or the Discovery Channel, or the National Geographic Channel!

So let me fill you in a little. We know about the genetic make-up of the Ancient Greeks due to the 10's of 1000's of graves that have been found in Greece. They find new cemeteries all the time including Royal Mycenaean ones. I know of one(Royal Mycenaean) that was just found at the end of last year on the outskirts of a suburb of Athens called Bari/Vari. I also know of 2 specific cemeteries that were located in Glyfada, one right off the main square and one around 3/4's of a mile north of there. I also know of another cemetery in Varkiza that was both Archaic and Classical. And believe me there was plenty of bone material to extract DNA! Not from the Archaic ones that are cremations but the classical ones that are inhumations.

The DNA material is extracted either from large bones such as the femur or fibula or from the molars. They also do this regularly from the mummies in Egypt that predate many of the Greek burials.

Not quite the same land, my friend. It has shrunk significantly.

What does size of or the specific land the Greeks live on have to do continuity? Size of the land is irrelevant when discussing continuity of ethnic groups.



Why do you separate the Pontians from my use of the word "Greek". I do not distinquish between the different types of Greek. Greeks are Greeks, no matter where you came from.

I do not seperate them! I was just using them as a specific example of a distinct Ethnic group within the Greek Ethnos. What, do you think the Greeks of ancient had only one culture or were all identical?


CONTINUITY WITH THE LANGUAGE PREVAILS

No, genetics, linguistics and religion(past 1700 years) PREVAIL!
Don't forget your argument is that the Greeks can not claim continuity over the PAST 2000 years!


One thing I should have asked in the beginning is how DO YOU DEFINE CONTINUITY?

You claim that there is no continuity of the Greeks for the past 2000 years.


There seems to be a misunderstanding. When this topic was first touched on, the claim of modern Greeks continuity with the ancients were mentioned, but what that continuity was did not materialize.

Since the talk was always on the continuity of the genetics between the ancients and the modern, with all the genetic analysis and genetic maps, I assumed that this was what the "continuity" was assumed to be. I apologize for not making you aware that this was what I was speaking of when I made the statement that there was no continuity.

Of course, you can see that I agree there is continuity with the ancient and modern Greeks in some other areas, as in language and ethnicity, as I spelled out and made known.

I will try my best to make it much more clearer next time.

OK now that we have that cleared up, what do you think about the FYROM continuity with the Ancients? I know you have said that there is no connection of the FYROMs with the Ancient Macedonians. So I guess forget that question.

But I would like for you to elaborate more on the FYROMs having as much continuity with the Ancients as the modern Greeks do.

OK now that we have that cleared up, what do you think about the FYROM continuity with the Ancients? I know you have said that there is no connection of the FYROMs with the Ancient Macedonians. So I guess forget that question.

But I would like for you to elaborate more on the FYROMs having as much continuity with the Ancients as the modern Greeks do.

Why is it that I am picked at piece by piece like a piece of baquette with all these questions? Is this an interrogation? Have I pounded you with constant questions? No, I have not. I simple have responded to comments made on these forums. I have not interrogated anyone.

Both parts of your statement above are asking the same thing, and I have already answered it. Redundancy is a waste of time.

OK now that we have that cleared up, what do you think about the FYROM continuity with the Ancients? I know you have said that there is no connection of the FYROMs with the Ancient Macedonians. So I guess forget that question.

But I would like for you to elaborate more on the FYROMs having as much continuity with the Ancients as the modern Greeks do.

Why is it that I am picked at piece by piece like a piece of baquette with all these questions? Is this an interrogation? Have I pounded you with constant questions? No, I have not. I simple have responded to comments made on these forums. I have not interrogated anyone.

Both parts of your statement above are asking the same thing, and I have already answered it. Redundancy is a waste of time.

THis post belongs in a museum.3 pages of responses with no problems and then suddenly its leave me alone,why are you persecuting me?
Ever notice how he writes pages about Greece(sometimes taking shots at Greece) but he goes apeshit or runs away when FYrom comes up?
This guy smells fishy at the very least.

This guy smells fishy at the very least.

They don't have sea!:lol::lol:

Yeah! Being landlocked sucks!!!:mad:

As we progress on this forum, with untold topics, you will see responses to posts concerning all that I wish to comment on. I really do not need to be asked a zillion questions about Macedonia. All you want to know is how I feel about the country and the people. You've read posts concerning this already. When I see something of interest I want to comment on, I will do so. The key is freedom to comment, not directing a zillion questions at me like an interrogation, and then making silly ass comments about why I do not answer, even after a few hours.

THis post belongs in a museum.3 pages of responses with no problems and then suddenly its leave me alone,why are you persecuting me?
Ever notice how he writes pages about Greece(sometimes taking shots at Greece) but he goes apeshit or runs away when FYrom comes up?
This guy smells fishy at the very least.

I believe you to be either an ignorant impudent pretender to what you do not understand or a base servile tool, ready to do the dirty work of any knave who will purchase you.

Hahahahahahahaha!
Sometimes i feel like that GS but then some asshole writes something stupid and makes me expose the worst of me!


Anyway do you find Bougatsa where you live now?(It's not an interrogation :lol: )

OK now that we have that cleared up, what do you think about the FYROM continuity with the Ancients? I know you have said that there is no connection of the FYROMs with the Ancient Macedonians. So I guess forget that question.

But I would like for you to elaborate more on the FYROMs having as much continuity with the Ancients as the modern Greeks do.

Why is it that I am picked at piece by piece like a piece of baquette with all these questions? Is this an interrogation? Have I pounded you with constant questions? No, I have not. I simple have responded to comments made on these forums. I have not interrogated anyone.

Both parts of your statement above are asking the same thing, and I have already answered it. Redundancy is a waste of time.

These are legitimate questions! I am trying to get a better understanding of how you think!

The questions are NOT the same, similiar but not the same.

1)Do you believe the FYROMs have a continuity with the Ancient Macedonians?

Next, you say that the FYROMs have as much continuity as the Greeks do with the ancients.

So I ask:

2)Now that you have agreed that the Ancient Greeks have a continuity going back 2000 or more years, what if any connections do the FYROMs have that is the same as the Greeks?

See 2 very different questions.

These are legitimate questions! I am trying to get a better understanding of how you think!

The questions are NOT the same, similiar but not the same.

1)Do you believe the FYROMs have a continuity with the Ancient Macedonians?

Next, you say that the FYROMs have as much continuity as the Greeks do with the ancients.

So I ask:

2)Now that you have agreed that the Ancient Greeks have a continuity going back 2000 or more years, what if any connections do the FYROMs have that is the same as the Greeks?

See 2 very different questions.

I never said the Macedonians have the same continuity as the Greeks to the ancients. I said "If you believe that, you must believe the claims made by the Macedonians on their connection to the ancient Macedonians. You can not believe in only some bs, but all of it."

As long as you twist what I say around to try and benefit your interrogation and argument, it will be difficult for me to answer.

If you had paid attention, you would already know the answer to your question. Shall I have to slap my pointer on my desk to snap you out of all that daydreaming?

GreekSlav so let me get this right you're saying that we have no continuity with the ancient Greeks??I need you to answer that if you can sorry about being repetitive but we need to be very clear here.

I would still like to know who GS thinks the Modern Greeks and the Modern Skopians are related to since the Greeks are not related to the ancients then where did we come from, surely not from a space ship?

Do you subscribe to Fallemeyer's theory? Do you think we are Christianized Turks? Do you think we are Vlachs or leftovers from Syria, I mean it's one thing to say that the claim of Modern Greeks of being any way racialy related to ancient Greeks as untrue but you then need to advise where you thing the Greeks of today are descended from?
In other words going back 5-7 generations do you think the Greeks of today were still categorised ethnicaly, racially or gy language as Greeks or as others?

I would also like to know about your views on the Skopiani and there descendants? Do you believe they were Bulgarians who changed ethnos quite recently, do you think they are simple Slavs, do you think they are mixed Turks, Albanians, Gypsies?

Of course, you can see that I agree there is continuity with the ancient and modern Greeks in some other areas, as in language and ethnicity, as I spelled out and made known.

I will try my best to make it much more clearer next time.

Ok sorry mate just saw it can u elaborate?
How do you define language and ethnicity?

I never said the Macedonians have the same continuity as the Greeks to the ancients. I said "If you believe that, you must believe the claims made by the Macedonians on their connection to the ancient Macedonians. You can not believe in only some bs, but all of it."

As long as you twist what I say around to try and benefit your interrogation and argument, it will be difficult for me to answer.

If you had paid attention, you would already know the answer to your question. Shall I have to slap my pointer on my desk to snap you out of all that daydreaming?

We are just discussing here so why are you getting so frustrated?

Yesterday you accepted that the Greeks have a continuity with the Ancient Greeks going back 2000+ years. This with more than just language.

Now you say that I must believe the same bs of the FYROMs having the same continuity??(I assume you are saying the Greek continuity is also BS.)

You can not believe in only some bs, but all of it.


My questions are a natural response to the confusion you have created by the statements you made about the FYROMs.

If you believe the modern Greeks have a connection to the ancient Greeks and you believe that the FYROMs have no connection to the Ancient Macedonians then how can we accept the bs(as you call it) as being the same?

Do you not see the confusion here?

1)You agree that the modern Greeks have a continuity to the Ancient Greeks "in some area, as in language and ethnicity..."

2)You have stated before that the FYROMs are not descended from the Ancient Macedonians.

So I believe my question to you is quite legitimate.

So one final time.

What if any connections do the FYROMs have that is the same as the Greeks?
i.e (language, ethnicity)

where are you GreekSlav hsa a cat bit yr tongue maybe??Spartan & I are waiting for some answers mate....

Truthbearer Post 1202: No
Slayer Post 419: Humans, No, No, No, all three, No, Yes, No
Truthbearer Post 1202: Speech and thought
Spartan Post 549: They are both from the Balkans

And how is that continuity with the Ancient Macedonians for the FYROMs? If that was the logic behind it then even Serbians, Bulgarians, Turks and Albanians all have the right to claim the Ancient Macedonians.

OK, so we have Greeks with continuity connected through Language, Religion, ethnicity and Living in the Balkans.

Then we have FYROMs continuity being just that they live in the Balkans.

So how is that the same?

So why are we supposed to accept the FYROM claims? Just over the region they live in? What else connects them? It is obvious they don't have a connection through language(names, etc). They don't have a connection through ethnicity. They don't have a connection through heritage.

So the Greeks have all that but the FYROMs don't.

So both are equal just due to living in the Balkans?

I believe you to be either an ignorant impudent pretender to what you do not understand or a base servile tool, ready to do the dirty work of any knave who will purchase you.

MOre hemming and hawing and deflecting,just like all your posts.
Your an embarrasment to all Macedonians everywhere.
Ebi se brachko.(Ask your overburdened and disappointed mother what that means)

If this was my forum,Id ban your "base servile tool" ass for calling all Greeks "knaves"

The number of questions asked of me in this thread alone is 40. I have only asked 7.

I am quite appreciative of you all looking up to me for answers, like little children hungry for the teacher's knowledge. I am flattered. It is good to see so many wanting to learn and grow.

:happy:

Question 1 of 40:

"So who are the Modern Greeks and who are the modern Skopiani in your own words GrekSlav?”

The modern Greeks are those people living in Greece and those living outside Greece (diaspora) that are ethnically Greek. There are Greeks that speak Greek, do not speak Greek, are of the Orthodox faith or not of the Orthodox faith, Greeks born in Greece and other countries of the world. In general, they know they are Greek and feel it. They are ethnically linked to the ancient Greeks.

I can not answer the second part of this question because I know no people called Skopiani.

Question 2 of 40:

“You can start by proving how are the Slavs connected to the ancient Macedonians and are not Greek?.”

I do not need to prove anything. But if you must know, it is common knowledge that the Slavs are not connected to the ancient Macedonians. Now it may be plausible that there could have been some intermixing of Slavs with Macedonians when the Slavs came down to the Balkans in the sixth century but that is insignificant and not a basis for labeling this a link. Now, all questions are legitimate, some being asked from knowledgeable people and some not. To ask to prove that Slavs are not Greek is just a trolling trap I will not fall into. Let's move on.

Question 1 of 40:

"So who are the Modern Greeks and who are the modern Skopiani in your own words GrekSlav?”

The modern Greeks are those people living in Greece and those living outside Greece (diaspora) that are ethnically Greek. There are Greeks that speak Greek, do not speak Greek, are of the Orthodox faith or not of the Orthodox faith, Greeks born in Greece and other countries of the world. In general, they know they are Greek and feel it. They are ethnically linked to the ancient Greeks.

I can not answer the second part of this question because I know no people called Skopiani.
Question 3 of 40 :
Who are the Makedontsi that live in FYROM ?

Question 3 of 40:

“So my question to you is who are the modern Greeks and Skopiani related to, what group, race, ethnicity do we belong to then?”

We already explained to the class about the Modern Greeks. When you get home tonight, please review the information given on question 1. You will be tested in the near future.

As for the second part of the question, again there are no such peoples called the Skopiani. But I will challenge the class to try and find who these people are, write a paper on it and turn it in by Friday of next week. You will be graded.

Class adjourned. Please read chapters 1 through 3 in your text "How to be a good citizen of the Republic of Macedonia"

No more questions from students until all 40 of the prior questions are answered. I have thirty seven to answer for the class.

I love Greece. It is why I speak boldly and the way I do. To be silent would be detrimental to my Greekness and the Greek people. Nikos Dimou is one of my favorite Greeks. He speaks boldly, for he loves Greece and the Greek people. I love his writings and include one here. This is exactly my feelings toward many things for and againest present Greek thought. To speak one's mind is a true Greek trait:
I have a feeling this is going to take me some time...

The Glory that was Greece
Hellas is still glorious for those who know it...


- I wish statesmen were poets, said Ion.

- Why?

- Because Poets always loved Greece! They had a weakness for this country. They were ready to forgive our mistakes, to understand our problems, to help in times of need. Remember Byron? Now nobody cares for us...
Poetry is a form of art very similar to that of politics. They both use the language to address and captivate the feelings of an audience... Do all poets love Hellas? As to this fella's thoughts, none forgave mistakes they worked with them.

In the rays of the setting sun, eighteen-year old Ion looked like an ancient statue of Antinoos.

- Why is it that you Greeks want so much to be loved? You have an overwhelming need for warmth and care. You divide all foreigners into friends and foes -- Philellenes and Misellenes, Greek-lovers and Greek-haters. Has it never dawned upon you that most people are neutral and indifferent?
We do not want to be loved... On the contrary, this is what we offer.
That was Robert the Scot, speaking. He was sipping at his ouzo. (Unlike Greeks, he hates scotch whisky.) Too much generalization. The only alcohol I put in my mouth is sake.

- This is the Greek way to look at history and politics, I said. Dramatic, not to say melodramatic. Our philosophy of history explains everything after the pattern set by the presocratic philosopher Empedocles. Two powers shaped the cosmos
-- strife (νείκος) and love (φιλότης). It is a very old theory...

- Ah -- here come the ancestors, again. Everything is filtered through the past. Can the tree survive without the roots?
- They had a word for you, Rob: cynic! Ha he wished! This is not cynism. He just doubts the status quo in order to start a conversation. I love rebels. I think a rebel without true cause is really pathetic though...
- OK. They discovered everything. (nope, they had not discovered internet! :)But what about you? Aren't you tired to live in their shade -- and at their expense? Furthermore I do not think you can identify yourselves with the ancient Greeks by right of inheritance. You have to earn that distinction. You are too late my friend. When the DNA unlocked its mysteries the looong time question whether the modern Hellenes had any genetic connection with their ancestors was brought to the surface. Apparently we and the Chinese are the ones with the oldest genetic material on earth and... we do have a connection with our old ones. Please contact National Geographic. If I am not mistaken, they had an article about it.


- Are you a disciple of Fallmerayer -- the German historian who maintained that the modern Greeks had nothing in common with the ancient ones?

- Yes, and no. Biologically and genetically you know that any theory of continuity over two thousand years is nonsense.Why? [/U] Not to say that any contention about Greek blood and purity of the race smacks of Nazi-Aryan racism. So if the idea is that you are the direct descendants -- forget it!
I do not believe that we have anything to do with Nazis or nazism. Have you ever met a Skinhead face to face???? Spooky! - But the language, Rob? It has subsisted over two thousand years!

- That is not enough. Language can be learned or transmitted. Yep by [U]people that have it as a motheir tongue or by those who love to learn it. That is the general rule! My associate, a Nigerian, speaks perfect Greek. Australians and Canadians, Americans and West Indians, speak English. Does that make them the grandsons of King Arthur? All Latin Americans speak Spanish without claiming to be Spaniards -- and Italians do not declare they are Romans, although their language is as close to Latin as yours to Ancient Greek.

- Rob, you like Greece! You left your bonny banks and braes to live in this country. What makes you so anti-Greek? You sound like the worst Greek-haters! I think old good Rob does not sound anti- Greek. On the contrary he has the perfect Hellenic thinking. He doubts for the knowledge that is served ready. He wants to think for himself. He has every right to...
- It is because I like Greece and Greeks that I speak in this way. I think you have a problem of identity. Its roots are to be found mainly in your distorted relationship to your forefathers. Mind you, it is also our fault..

- Yours? Whom do you mean?

- Ours, West- Europeans, Non-Greeks. We taught you to pose as modern versions of Pericles. The late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries imitated and idealized antiquity -- we inoculated you with this romantic fallacy. Just think of the Bavarians of Ludwig and Otho -- their neo-classic ideals and buildings. To us you were not a new nation in its own right -- just a sequel. A neo-classic country with a neo-classic language, as phony as the buildings. The famous "catharevousa"!

The identity is destorted... There is no such thing as West Europeans ... We are all or wannabe Hellenes for we all have or try to have the Hellenic education.

- But, Rob, we feel Greek!

- Now that, is something else. Something I respect -- for you cannot question a person's inner truth. Only beware: it is not enough to feel -- you must prove it.

- You mean: prove worthy of the Ancients?

- Yes, in a way. Remember Isocrates' definition? Anyone is a Greek if he partakes of our culture. An Oxford don, studying the classics, may be (in a timeless sense) more Greek than you are. Not of course in real terms -- he will still have a British passport. He is will be an Hellene allright in thinking! Now the proven worthy of the Ancient part! We do not need to prove anything to anyone. If you have a different opinion please elaborate...
- I admit that the West did a lot to study, cultivate and revive our ancient culture. The French dug up Delphi and the Germans Olympia. Even we Greeks study our classics in foreign editions -- Oxford, Loeb, Teubner or Budé. But on the other hand the very same West has had a rather negative influence on our life, our subsistence as a nation...
The West... if it was the "West" it does not make any sense. It was not the West my friend. It was the Hellenes if not in genes in education and heart. Nothing had died, the Hellene subject under the Ottoman rule still had the sense of honour and urge to be the best he can. Which is why we were constantly trying to get our freedom. We do not like chains in any form.

- I will not contest this. It is in the nature of thin