Fyrom Won't Budge on Name

[Greece2006]

Fyrom Won't Budge on Name

A top Skopje diplomat calls his country's finn stand on the issue
'a matter of dignity'; Athens calls it a spearhead for irredentism


By George Gilson


In an interview with the Athens News, a high-level Fyrom diplomat in Skopje close to UN-sponsored talks with Greece to resolve the name dispute says his country is not ready to drop the claim to the name Republic of Macedonia.

The diplomat describes the political catch-22 which an abandonment of the constitutional name Republic of Macedonia entails. "It would mean political suicide for any government," he said, speaking on condition of anonymity. Greek diplomats say much the same about the prospect of abandoning opposition to that name.

In a series of campaign speeches both at home and abroad, Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis has gotten tough with Fyrom, calling on Skopje to do its share to reach a compromise and abandon irredentist rhetoric and acts. That includes a recent move to rename Skopje's airport after Alexander the Great, which was criticised by the EU.

The Fyrom diplomat disavows any expansionist claims, insisting that "we don't have any claims on anyone. We are quite happy with our borders."

But Greece complains that Fyrom schoolbooks still present large areas of northern Greece as being part of Fyrom. A US Congressional resolution 356 of 1 May 2007 cites a 2004 Fyrom military academy textbook showing a "Greater Macedonia" extending to Mount Olympus in Greece. The Fyrom diplomat says the military textbook was withdrawn a few months ago and that the controversial schoolbook maps depict "historical maps that have nothing to do with the present Republic of Macedonia or any sorts of claims".

Greek foreign ministry sources insist the military textbook was not withdrawn and is available in English on the internet. The foreign service has accumulated plentiful evidence from recent Fyrom textbooks that promulgate the theory that the entire The Fyrom diplomat was reluctant to say that the Slav population in Fyrom hails from the ancient Macedonian dynasty of Philip and Alexander the Great, as organised propagandists in his country have for decades, claiming the ancient Macedonians were not Greek. "It's not very clear. This is an issue between historians," he said, noting that most Slavs in Fyrom believe that "in terms of genes, the Slavs mixed with them [the descendants ofthe ancient Macedonians]".

Karamanlis and Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis have threatened that Greece could block Fyrom's Nato and EU entry if a name compromise is not reached.

But the EU has other ideas. A July 12 European Parliament report said clearly that the resolution of the name dispute is not a precondition for membership, and that countries can freely choose their name. New Democracy MEPs approved the report and foreign ministry spokesman George Koumoutsakos hailed it as an improvement on a previous draft that spoke of the "Macedonian" government.

On July 17, Thessaloniki Mayor Vassilis Papageorgopoulos called for a referendum on the name dispute and for the government to veto Fyrom's entry in Nato and the EU absent a settlement.


The next step

Fyrom's membership in Nato and the EU, in which Greece is a member and wields veto power, is considered crucial to Fyrom's longterm security survival. But while Athens has brandished the threat of the veto, its northern neighbour appears unswayed.

When asked if it is not in Fyrom's interest to have a strong friend in Greece given the potentially hostile Albanian environment surrounding the small and weak state, the Fyrom diplomat turned the argument on its head. He quoted Gafurr Adili, the leader of the separatist Albanian National Army that waged war in northwest Fyrom against government forces in 2001, as saying, "How can we support a country whose name is not internationally recognised?" The diplomat suggested that accepting the country's constitutional name would have impeded Albanian terrorists. The Albanian National Army aimed to unite Albania, Kosovo, and Albanian-dominated parts of Fyrom, Serbia and Montenegro.

The Fyrom diplomat conceded there is a danger of a Greek veto on his country's Nato or EU membership, but he says the 1995 interim agreement says "if we become a member of an international organisation of which Greece is a member as Fyrom, Greece will not block that". Athens accuses Skopje of selectively using the agreement, ignoring the ban on irredentist propaganda and its basic aim of a compromise settlement. .

"Our nation was last in the region to gain statehood, and the name is basically the foundation of our identity. Because of the permanent challenge to our identity, it is becoming popular for people to look deeper in history for their roots. But we are committed to keep trying, " the Fyrom diplomat said, asserting that Greece is posing a unilateral demand without any reciprocal demands from Skopje.

Fyrom's official position is a double-name formula, under which Greece alone would use a combined name (such as the "Republika Makedonija-Skopje" proposed by UN mediator Matthew Nimetz in March 2005 to be used by all countries and not just Greece) and the rest of the world would call the country the Republic of Macedonia. Greece firmly rejects the double*name formula. While Greece accepted that Nimetz's proposal as a basis for talks, Fyrom rejected it.

Nimetz's next proposal was rejected out of hand by Greece. As the Fyrom diplomat noted, the UN Secretariat in the first years would use the Slav spelling "Republika Makedonija", and later replace that with "Republic of Macedonia", while UN member-states would be able to choose between the two, and Greece would use "Republika Makedonija-Skopje". Worse for Athens, use of the name Macedonia in the Greek province of that name would be under certain restrictions.

"We have an extremely friendly attitude towards Greece. But if we must change our name to be friends with Greece, that's not a very friendly precondition. We want to maintain our identity," the diplomatic source said.

Asked why adding the word Skopje to the name means losing identity, the diplomat said: "It's a matter of dignity. After changing our flag, amending the constitution and signing the 1995 interim agreement, we need some basic national energy to continue to build our country. Our stability and integration in Nato and the EU is also in Greece's interest."

While the UN Security Council's mandate for talks to resolve the dispute implies that some compromise is necessary, the Fyrom diplomat insists that this "can be done in more than one way". "The double-name formula is already a concession, "he said.

The Fyrom diplomat expressed guarded optimism for a settlement after the Greek election, when Nimetz expected to table a fresh proposal. "I'm sure that after the Greek elections, there will be a window of opportunity. If both sides are inventive and reach out, perhaps a solution is not impossible. That would be ideal for us because at that point we can really rely on Greece's friendship also in our subsequent EU application," the diplomat said.

geographic region of Macedonia (including parts of Greece, Bulgaria and Albania) has since the 9th century BC been the fatherland of a single Macedonian people with no connection to Hellenism. The books claim that Macedonia was violently dismembered in 1913 and that the regions in Greece and Bulgaria remain "enslaved".

[Truth Bearer]

geographic region of Macedonia (including parts of Greece, Bulgaria and Albania) has since the 9th century BC been the fatherland of a single Macedonian people with no connection to Hellenism. The books claim that Macedonia was violently dismembered in 1913 and that the regions in Greece and Bulgaria remain "enslaved".

How or where does this comment fit in the article?

[Spartan]

I think we should petition the Greek government with the alternative names we have decided on!

Vardarmacedonia, etc.

[terastios]

I think we should petition the Greek government with the alternative names we have decided on!

Vardarmacedonia, etc.

No Spartan!
Let's take it to the end!
NO TERM "MACEDONIA" IN THEIR NAME!
Let them give us the alternatives and we'll think about it!

Not even a step back and let's see who will prevail!
[insult removed]

[Spartan]

Here is how you can write to your representative if you live in the U.S or are a U.S citizen.

Action Alert: U.S. House of Reps FYROM Resolution May 2007 (http://www.helleniccomserve.com/FYROMactionalertmay07.html#How%20to%20Contact%20Re ps%20FYROM%20Alert)

Go to the upper right hand side and click on How to contact your representative.

I have already done so. Here is what I wrote.






"For the past 16 years there has been a debate over a name in the Balkans, Macedonia. The small nation of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia as known by the U.N and the E.U in 1991 voted to name themselves "Macedonia". They base this on the belief that there population is based on that of the Ancient Macedonians of which Alexander the Great was it's most famous citizen. The interesting thing is that this nations majority"ethnic Macedonians" consist of a Slavic people descended primarily from Bulgarians and to a lesser extent Serbians with the largest minority group being Albanian.

The belief of being descendent from the Ancient Macedonians is based on former communist propoganda started by Joseph Tito(Former dictator of Yugoslavia) so that he could gain access to the Aegean through northern Greece. Part of his effort was to support the communist movement in Greece which led to the Greek Civil War in 1946. These efforts are in part what led to the Cold War. Even though Tito died in 1980 his propoganda continued on. In 1991 the small nation of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, FYROM for short, which had just gained independence continued that effort.

Their actions consisted of: 1)creating paper currency with images that exist only on greek soil such as the White Tower in Thessaloniki. 2)Creating a national flag with the image of the Vergina Sun which was discoverd in Vergina Greece in the tomb of Philip II, the father of Alexander the Great, in 1976. 3)Creating school books with maps of what they called "Greater Macedonia" which included Greece and Bulgaria. Greece has around 51% of the Greater Region of Macedonia, with all the original homeland of the Ancient Macedonians residing within. 4)An Article(#49) in their constitution stipulating the right to "...care for the rights of those persons belonging to the Macedonian people in neighboring countries....". This article implies that the country was in existance since before 1991 and that the bilingual, Greek and Slavic speaking people in northern Greece were actually expatriots of their country.

Greece in response to these actions asked FYROM to remove these items and change their name to a suitable one for both sides, but they refused. In 1993 Greece placed an economic embargo on FYROM to force the changes. Within two years FYROM gave in and applied the necessary changes except for one. This was the name.

Since 1995 there has been an agreement that both sides will work towards finding a mutually acceptable name. Several solutions have been presented but they have been unsatisfactory to both sides. During that time the FYROM government has continued its irredentist actions towards Greece and its heritage. These actions are: 1)Placing maps in their military academy textbooks showing, once again, a "Greater Macedonia". 2)Renaming their capital, Skopje's airport to Alexander the Great. 3)Renaiming roads after Ancient Macedonian nobility. 4)Erecting statues of Alexander the Great in Skopje at their Capital and other towns.

Even though the FYROM government claims that they have removed the books from their military academy, they remain in circulation till this day. These actions show that the government of FYROM have not stopped their irredentist claims and that they have not respected the interim agreement signed with greece in 1995. This in face of the fact that greece has been the number one investor in FYROM since 1995.

This is why I write you this letter today. As a citizen of **********and a professional in the field of ******** I am requesting your support for House Res. 356 on FYROM's actions. The continued actions by the FYROM government will lead to instability within the region in the future, a region which has been called the "Powder Keg of Europe", and which has been the center of violence since ancient times."

[Morphesau]

Rightio i'm out of semi etirement as soon as i recover from my condition.

Our ancestors faced allllllll odds and won so will we to the end.

[Jordan Piperkata]

Why were my posts deleted in this thread?

[admin]

I agree it should be called Vardaska what is was before. No Macedonia in the name as they do not have any link to ancient Macedonians and have confused the less learned with their namings...

[Jordan Piperkata]

I agree it should be called Vardaska what is was before. No Macedonia in the name as they do not have any link to ancient Macedonians and have confused the less learned with their namings...

Then I hope that you emphaize that the rest of the ex-yugoslav countries rename themselvs according to the Banovina system that was in place during the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, thus naming them in accordance to their main rivers, Dravska, Vrbaska, Dunavska, Drinska, Zetska, Moravska, Savska, Primorska and Vardarska.

[akritas_gs]

Rightio i'm out of semi etirement as soon as i recover from my condition.

Our ancestors faced allllllll odds and won so will we to the end.

SAY WORD. Itan i epi tas , they want the name then MOLON LAVE disgusting Slavs !

[GreekSlav]

I believe the article posted is the overall consensus concerning the matter. People are very tired of:

1. The constant bickering over the name by Greece.
2. The constant propaganda from some in ROM that only makes it quite difficult to make any headway in their overall reputation.

The world, UN, EU and NATO want to move on with this. And I am afraid that they just might do this without Greece.

[Draco]

And I am afraid that they just might do this without Greece.
I'm afraid they're legally unable to. However, they can do it without FYROM.

[GreekSlav]

I'm afraid they're legally unable to. However, they can do it without FYROM.

As far as the EU is concerned, the fire in this issue has only been fed by Greece. It bothers no one else. It is all over a name. Think about it.

[Victor]

As far as the EU is concerned, the fire in this issue has only been fed by Greece. It bothers no one else. It is all over a name. Think about it.Greece matters.You dont.

[pankration]

As far as the EU is concerned, the fire in this issue has only been fed by Greece. It bothers no one else. It is all over a name. Think about it.

You do know that you're writing on a website called Macedoniaontheweb don't you? This website has thousands of scholarly and legitimate postings on this issue with FYROM. It is NOT simply a name issue; you know it, I know it and every Slav and Greek knows it. It's one step in a propaganda war that seeks to legitimatize territorial claims by stealing someone else's identity. And it works beautifully (look how Hitler was able to "reclaim" the Rhineland to start WW II). FYROM is working on the theory that if you say it often enough people will believe it. And so far it is working. If it wasn't for the diaspora Greeks raising hell about it, even Greece would have probably capitulated by now. But we on this forum and others who agree with the ideas presented here realize that historical revisionism is the basest of political manouvers and the vilest of propaganda. FYROM should honor its SLAVIC heritage, its SLAVIC scholars and its SLAVIC heroes. That's what makes an identity not the stealing of your neighbor's history. FYROM needs Greece; Greece probably could use an ally in the region. Both should be seeking a mutually agreeable compromise but Greece should not give in on this issue. If they do they leave the door open to future claims by the brainwashed children in the Skopjean school system (Hitler youth?).

[Melbourne Patriot]

The survival of FYROM is not Greeces problem. Greek interests will continue to own the businesses, the land, the infrastructure anyway on any breakup of FYROM.

In the end, Its VETO time in both the EU and NATO. The EU and NATO might not like it, but thats how it is. We have the right to VETO for any number of reasons, we already have plenty of reasons. The Greek Government will VETO when the time comes.

[GreekSlav]

You do know that you're writing on a website called Macedoniaontheweb don't you? This website has thousands of scholarly and legitimate postings on this issue with FYROM. It is NOT simply a name issue; you know it, I know it and every Slav and Greek knows it. It's one step in a propaganda war that seeks to legitimatize territorial claims by stealing someone else's identity. And it works beautifully (look how Hitler was able to "reclaim" the Rhineland to start WW II). FYROM is working on the theory that if you say it often enough people will believe it. And so far it is working. If it wasn't for the diaspora Greeks raising hell about it, even Greece would have probably capitulated by now. But we on this forum and others who agree with the ideas presented here realize that historical revisionism is the basest of political manouvers and the vilest of propaganda. FYROM should honor its SLAVIC heritage, its SLAVIC scholars and its SLAVIC heroes. That's what makes an identity not the stealing of your neighbor's history. FYROM needs Greece; Greece probably could use an ally in the region. Both should be seeking a mutually agreeable compromise but Greece should not give in on this issue. If they do they leave the door open to future claims by the brainwashed children in the Skopjean school system (Hitler youth?).

Paranoia and groundless.

[Reaper]

I spoke to a Fyromian yesterday. He told me he was a descendant of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians. He said his language was a direct descendant of Alexander's language.

Who taught him this, or did he just invent it? I think unless you have been educated in FYROM or seen what they are actually taught, it looks stupid when you try and defend their position and indeed pretend they are not brainwashed.

[Xiotis]

Paranoia and groundless.

GreekSlav, your statement is groundless. One need not look further than the dozens upon dozens of websites authored and maintained by our friends from FYROM to get an accurate guage of their sentiments. Their diaspora organizations, their so called 'Human Rights' organizations and even their government and cultural institutions have joined in on the act promoting a false history and artificial culture. From these actions it is obvious that from their point of view the legitimization of the name 'Macedonia' as a descriptor for their country and their ethnos will facilitate their claim as being the official representatives and heirs of the whole region they claim as 'Macedonia' along with all of the social, cultural and historical constructs associated with the name. I do not want a new Greek generation dealing with this issue when the offspring of these brainwashed maniacs are running their country 50 years from now (if FYROM does still exist). Just because their government does not commit political suicide in front of the international community and overtly make irridentist and/or aggressive statements is no reason for us to turn a blind eye to all of the garbage being promoted and espoused by the mass of fools in FYROM and their diaspora.

[Istor]

Bre Slav-Slav, do you speak SlavoSkopian?
If yes, would you tell us what SlavoSkopian pupils do learn about Greek 'atrocities' against SlavoSkopians?

Greek researchers here tell us that SlavoSkopians equalize Greeks (vs SlavoSkopians) to Turks (vs Kurds). Are they lying?

[Greek-Cowboy]

FYROM all believe that they are a direct link and that Greek Macedonia has been enslaved by the "Greeks" They want to liberate the Greek Macedonians from Slavery.

You have many people, fevgatous" Begitsi" from Makedonia- mainly Florina/ Kastoria who believe the Propaganda as well- share the same common goals as FYROmans in Canada.

They may fule propaganda into greece through a certain political, and un popular political group, who's name is not mentioned- but share many colours in thier political flag....

My 2 cents.........:mad:





I spoke to a Fyromian yesterday. He told me he was a descendant of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians. He said his language was a direct descendant of Alexander's language.

Who taught him this, or did he just invent it? I think unless you have been educated in FYROM or seen what they are actually taught, it looks stupid when you try and defend their position and indeed pretend they are not brainwashed.

[Greek-Cowboy]

No Compromise on the Name Macedonia by Risto Stefov (http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov57.html)



This fellow is from Greek Macedonia- ............

[Victor]

Paranoia and groundless.NOt according to Greece,not according to us.This issue is important to us and it always will be,so if you think the whole debate is pointless,why are you even here?
You continue to mock the existence and validity of this debate instead of actually constructivly takiing part in it(as even some fyromanians do).You stand for nothing except to mock this forum.COunt yourself extremely lucky that the guys running things here have more patience than me.

[Demetrius Doukas]

No guys it is the opposite.....the Macedonians are enslaved from the Scopians by degrading their history and dignity, by their atrocities during Ottoman times and the Balkan wars and their continuoing racism and hatred towards the Macedonians. By creating distortive and degrading image for Macedonia and Alexander The Great and by many many other things. They are guilty for the stupefication of their own children by educating them in that way and making of them cartoons around the world, If I were scopian I would fly from there and renounce my parents and grandparents for such attitude towards me by instead of fixing their faults they give them to their children to wore the sins and labels of their parent's brainwashing without any guilt.

[Demetrius Doukas]

I think the Greek government use a very mild tone in conversing with these guys. They were the occupators of Macedonia and Macedonians and have such an offendive behaviour, Greece must use the same words for them - ocupators, thieves, hitleric like propagandists and distorters. :angry:
Of course they were expelled in 1913 no place in Macedonia for these racists they had a chance then to be a Macedonians to be Greek and Hellenise themselves (some of them did it but very little indeed ) the others commited atrocities and accordingly were expelled. Lets use the true names for them.

[GreekSlav]

I spoke to a Fyromian yesterday. He told me he was a descendant of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians. He said his language was a direct descendant of Alexander's language.

Who taught him this, or did he just invent it? I think unless you have been educated in FYROM or seen what they are actually taught, it looks stupid when you try and defend their position and indeed pretend they are not brainwashed.


You misunderstood me. Yes, they have been taught some of this trash, BUT WE AS GREEKS KNOW THE TRUTH SO IT IS INSIGNIFICANT. WHAT THEY SAY AND BELIEVE ARE JUST PIPE DREAMS. I have never ever in my life, here and there and elsewhere, ever defended their position when it comes to the lies that come from the fanatical Macedonians. Never. You show me where I have defended their pipe dreams, lies and fantasies!! Where?

[GreekSlav]

Bre Slav-Slav, do you speak SlavoSkopian?
If yes, would you tell us what SlavoSkopian pupils do learn about Greek 'atrocities' against SlavoSkopians?

Greek researchers here tell us that SlavoSkopians equalize Greeks (vs SlavoSkopians) to Turks (vs Kurds). Are they lying?

No, I do not speak SlavoSkopian. What is that, anyway?

[Draco]

No, I do not speak SlavoSkopian. What is that, anyway?
The Bulgarian dialects of FYROM.

To everyone else: Please Do Not Feed The Trolls (http://www.untwistedvortex.com/2007/06/07/do-not-feed-the-trolls/).

[GreekSlav]

GreekSlav, your statement is groundless. One need not look further than the dozens upon dozens of websites authored and maintained by our friends from FYROM to get an accurate guage of their sentiments. Their diaspora organizations, their so called 'Human Rights' organizations and even their government and cultural institutions have joined in on the act promoting a false history and artificial culture. From these actions it is obvious that from their point of view the legitimization of the name 'Macedonia' as a descriptor for their country and their ethnos will facilitate their claim as being the official representatives and heirs of the whole region they claim as 'Macedonia' along with all of the social, cultural and historical constructs associated with the name. I do not want a new Greek generation dealing with this issue when the offspring of these brainwashed maniacs are running their country 50 years from now (if FYROM does still exist). Just because their government does not commit political suicide in front of the international community and overtly make irridentist and/or aggressive statements is no reason for us to turn a blind eye to all of the garbage being promoted and espoused by the mass of fools in FYROM and their diaspora.

My statement has strength. It is paranoia and groundless. Why in the hell do so many Greeks listen to the bullsh.it that comes out of the mouths of fanatical Macedonians in ROM and elsewhere? Why? It is insignificant babble. It does not change anything. The history they claim as theirs do not magically get rewritten, where all of a sudden we open a book on ancient Greece, and all references to "Greek" has been replaced with "Macedonian". Nothing changes. Renaming their airport to the name of the greatest ancient Macedonian there ever was does not make him Slav and does not take him away from us. Come on, Greeks. Listening to the crap from those fanatics and getting emotional over what they name certain things just makes it seem as if we are all second guessing everything about being Greek. We are Greeks, we know our history, and we know who we are. We are positively sure of it. So why do a few fanatics move so many Greeks into giving life to their crap?

That is my view on all this. Let them make false claims. The world will never believe their claims on Greek history anyhow. Reacting to it is extremely counterproductive for Greece.

[Morphesau]

You misunderstood me. Yes, they have been taught some of this trash, BUT WE AS GREEKS KNOW THE TRUTH SO IT IS INSIGNIFICANT. WHAT THEY SAY AND BELIEVE ARE JUST PIPE DREAMS. I have never ever in my life, here and there and elsewhere, ever defended their position when it comes to the lies that come from the fanatical Macedonians. Never. You show me where I have defended their pipe dreams, lies and fantasies!! Where?

From network54 along with a thousand.

Greek Slav (Login GreekSlav)
Makedonija Forum Mods Group

Actually it is much better to call Darius' army - Greek army, since 50,000 Greeks were fighting on Darius' side against Alexander and his Macedonians, while only 7,000 Greeks served as ‘hostages’ the ambitions of the Macedonian king (Green). These hostages, Alexander got rid of only when he learned that the Macedonian occupation troops have a firm control of the whole of Greece, when Antipater finally subdued the Spartans next to the rest of the Greeks. Here are the overwhelming proofs that the Alexander’s army was not a Greek army, and that Alexander did not care about the Greeks, but his Macedonians:

1. "This was the Panhellenic crusade preached by Isocrates, and as such the king’s propaganda section continued - for the time being - to present it. No one, so far as we know, was tactless enough to ask the obvious question: if this was a Panhellenic crusade, where were the Greek troops? Peter Green Alexander of Macedon [p. 157]

2. "The truth of the matter seems to have been that Alexander distrusted his Greek allies so profoundly - and with good reason - that he preferred to risk the collapse of his campaign in a spate of rebellion rather than entrust its safety to a Greek fleet." [p.192]

3. "The burning of Persepolis had written finish to the Hellenic crusade as such, and he used this excuse to pay off all his league’s troops, Parmenio’s Thessalians included. The crisis in Greece was over: he no longer needed these potential trouble makers as hostages." [p. 322]

4. "Of the sixty-five or so men named as hetairoi, 9 are Greek, including 3 mainlanders. Of the nine, four owed their position to life-long connections with Macedon: Nearchus and the brothers Erygius and Laomedon ere in fact raised as Macedonians, and Demaratus of Corinth had been associated with the court since the time of Philip II."

Note: Very small number of Greeks were hetairoi, next to the overwhelming number of Macedonians]

Conclusion:

Alexander's conquest was for the greatness of Macedonia. The Greeks served Alexander only as mercenaries and were assigned low garrison duties after 330. The 7,000 Greek 'hostages' that Alexander took with himself, were commanded by Macedonian officers, and had insignificant role in the Macedonian victorious battles. Therefore, Alexander’s conquest was a Macedonian conquest, not Greek, his empire can only be Macedonian (as it was), not Greek, an empire that was won by the Macedonians, not Greek.


=============================

[GreekSlav]

The Bulgarian dialects of FYROM.

To everyone else: Please Do Not Feed The Trolls (http://www.untwistedvortex.com/2007/06/07/do-not-feed-the-trolls/).

I was simply asking a question, but your comment was the trolling one. A little funny, too.

[GreekSlav]

From network54 along with a thousand.

Greek Slav (Login GreekSlav)
Makedonija Forum Mods Group

Actually it is much better to call Darius' army - Greek army, since 50,000 Greeks were fighting on Darius' side against Alexander and his Macedonians, while only 7,000 Greeks served as ‘hostages’ the ambitions of the Macedonian king (Green). These hostages, Alexander got rid of only when he learned that the Macedonian occupation troops have a firm control of the whole of Greece, when Antipater finally subdued the Spartans next to the rest of the Greeks. Here are the overwhelming proofs that the Alexander’s army was not a Greek army, and that Alexander did not care about the Greeks, but his Macedonians:

1. "This was the Panhellenic crusade preached by Isocrates, and as such the king’s propaganda section continued - for the time being - to present it. No one, so far as we know, was tactless enough to ask the obvious question: if this was a Panhellenic crusade, where were the Greek troops? Peter Green Alexander of Macedon [p. 157]

2. "The truth of the matter seems to have been that Alexander distrusted his Greek allies so profoundly - and with good reason - that he preferred to risk the collapse of his campaign in a spate of rebellion rather than entrust its safety to a Greek fleet." [p.192]

3. "The burning of Persepolis had written finish to the Hellenic crusade as such, and he used this excuse to pay off all his league’s troops, Parmenio’s Thessalians included. The crisis in Greece was over: he no longer needed these potential trouble makers as hostages." [p. 322]

4. "Of the sixty-five or so men named as hetairoi, 9 are Greek, including 3 mainlanders. Of the nine, four owed their position to life-long connections with Macedon: Nearchus and the brothers Erygius and Laomedon ere in fact raised as Macedonians, and Demaratus of Corinth had been associated with the court since the time of Philip II."

Note: Very small number of Greeks were hetairoi, next to the overwhelming number of Macedonians]

Conclusion:

Alexander's conquest was for the greatness of Macedonia. The Greeks served Alexander only as mercenaries and were assigned low garrison duties after 330. The 7,000 Greek 'hostages' that Alexander took with himself, were commanded by Macedonian officers, and had insignificant role in the Macedonian victorious battles. Therefore, Alexander’s conquest was a Macedonian conquest, not Greek, his empire can only be Macedonian (as it was), not Greek, an empire that was won by the Macedonians, not Greek.


=============================

That is another discussion and has nothing to do with the claim that Alexander was Slavic. He is not and the Slav Macedonians have no connection to him. I have always believe this. What you post here is misleading and quite surprising, coming from what I thought was an intelligent individual. Is this a move on your part because you could not think of any other response. I wonder, would I have been banned for doing what you have done. Never show your weaknessess as you have done here. People would take advantage of it. :clapping:

You must have lots of time on your hands to look for posts on another forum and bring it here. Do you work or are you doing this at work?

[Morphesau]

Further more this parrot who CLAIMED never to support their ultra garbage writes;

In fact this is nothing more than their conviction which for years now has been handed out to young people in Greek schools from their earliest years and, most recently, has been propagated throughout the entire world. The thesis of the "Greek identity of Macedonia" is not scientifically supportable. We shall concentrate here on the earliest period.

In Greek scholarship, in numerous articles and books, the historical facts which go against the thesis of a "Greek Macedonia" are passed over. It is universally known that the classical Greek authors did not recognize the Macedonians as their fellow-countrymen, calling them barbarians, and they considered Macedonian domination in Greece as an alien rule, imported from outside by the members of other

Then another Greek defending us.
Istor the Macedonian
(Login istor)
Re: Ancient Macedonians and their language
No score for this post June 6 2005, 6:18 PM

Macedonians had always Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods, dialect and spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World. Macedonians named after Greek names ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the cities they built or renamed. Thus, Macedonians were always Greeks or a very strange people.

Istor
Macedonia, Greece

All here, saving the rest from deletions.
Makedonija / Macedonia Forum (State: R.M./Capital:Skopje) (http://www.network54.com/Forum/64595/thread/1118071045/last-1118196833/Ancient+Macedonians+and+their+language)

Trying to save face from humiliation from being exposed as a lair. Off course what do you know of humiliation? I pity you.

[GreekSlav]

Further more this parrot who CLAIMED never to support their ultra garbage writes;



Then another Greek defending us.


All here, saving the rest from deletions.
Makedonija / Macedonia Forum (State: R.M./Capital:Skopje) (http://www.network54.com/Forum/64595/thread/1118071045/last-1118196833/Ancient+Macedonians+and+their+language)

Trying to save face from humiliation from being exposed as a lair. Off course what do you know of humiliation? I pity you.

No humiliation. It is another argument and has nothing to do with some fantasy connection between the Slav Macedonians and the ancient Macedonians. Mind you, I believe there was a limited amount of intermixing when the Slavs came south, but not enough for the ROMians and Macedonians of today to make claim on Alexander. Alexander was the greatest ancient Macedonian to spread Greek culture throughout his known world. He did not spread the Slavic culture.

Actually, the argument concerning Alexander being Greek or not is quite a fascinating one, don't you think. It tends to expand one's desire to know more about it. But what is positive is that he was never Slavic.

[Draco]

Wow, SkopSlav, I am impressed. I must congratulate you on the calibre of the sources (http://faq.macedonia.org/history/ancient.macedonians.html) from which you derive your information (in the form of copypasta). Congratulations Mr Scholarly Bigshot :rolleyes:

To any viewers interested in behavioural patterns, notice how SkopSlav in the thread at network54 consistently avoids answering questions.

[GreekSlav]

Wow, SkopSlav, I am impressed. I must congratulate you on the calibre of the sources (http://faq.macedonia.org/history/ancient.macedonians.html) from which you derive your information (in the form of copypasta). Congratulations Mr Scholarly Bigshot :rolleyes:

To any viewers interested in behavioural patterns, notice how SkopSlav in the thread at network54 consistently avoids answering questions.

Why do you think that is so? What kind of responses to I get here from my answers? It is always the same everywhere, that Greeks that come across Greeks with views that does not conform to theirs, find it utterly unbelievable, and have only negativity toward that different Greek.

Also, I have answered many questions and even started a class on all the wonderful questions you all had. But I was banned from answering your questions. So tell me, why should I answer any more?

[Draco]

Why do you think that is so? What kind of responses to I get here from my answers? It is always the same everywhere, that Greeks that come across Greeks with views that does not conform to theirs, find it utterly unbelievable, and have only negativity toward that different Greek.

Also, I have answered many questions and even started a class on all the wonderful questions you all had. But I was banned from answering your questions. So tell me, why should I answer any more?
Darling, no one is stopping you answering questions (in fact, that people are asking you them means that they want them answered). When you were banned it was for trolling and insulting people (rationale (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/macedonia-news/3560-greece-not-happy-canada-over-macedonia-name-issue-2.html#post36920)). Morover, if you aren't going to answer questions, how can there be a healthy debate? Perhaps you should just leave the forum.

You try present yourself as a normal common sense person whereas all Greeks are delusional nationalists, however that image you try to set up for yourself cannot be taken seriously since you use Skopjian nationalistic sources but ignoring everything a Greek says as biased. Let's just face it, you're either a Skopjian diaspora nationalist or a diaspora Greek with a grudge against his motherland (yes, there are many people like this, most of the SYRIZA qualify).

[GreekSlav]

Darling, no one is stopping you answering questions (in fact, that people are asking you them means that they want them answered). When you were banned it was for trolling and insulting people (rationale (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/macedonia-news/3560-greece-not-happy-canada-over-macedonia-name-issue-2.html#post36920)). Morover, if you aren't going to answer questions, how can there be a healthy debate? Perhaps you should just leave the forum.

You try present yourself as a normal common sense person whereas all Greeks are delusional nationalists, however that image you try to set up for yourself cannot be taken seriously since you use Skopjian nationalistic sources but ignoring everything a Greek says as biased. Let's just face it, you're either a Skopjian diaspora nationalist or a diaspora Greek with a grudge against his motherland (yes, there are many people like this, most of the SYRIZA qualify).

Trolling? If you look around, you will see many posts that are quite bad, directed at me, and they still remain. As far as I know, no one was banned due to those posts. I give back what is given to me, and I am the only one accused of trolling. Funny ways here.

[GreekSlav]

Darling, no one is stopping you answering questions (in fact, that people are asking you them means that they want them answered). When you were banned it was for trolling and insulting people (rationale (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/macedonia-news/3560-greece-not-happy-canada-over-macedonia-name-issue-2.html#post36920)). Morover, if you aren't going to answer questions, how can there be a healthy debate? Perhaps you should just leave the forum.

You try present yourself as a normal common sense person whereas all Greeks are delusional nationalists, however that image you try to set up for yourself cannot be taken seriously since you use Skopjian nationalistic sources but ignoring everything a Greek says as biased. Let's just face it, you're either a Skopjian diaspora nationalist or a diaspora Greek with a grudge against his motherland (yes, there are many people like this, most of the SYRIZA qualify).


Not all Greeks, Draco. I have never said this. But it is true that some Greeks are delusional nationalists, like some Macedonians. If I had a grudge on Greeks or Greece itself, I would not travel so extensively to Greece and maintain an apartment there. I have views that does not conform to yours. But that does not mean I dislike Greeks or Greece in general. Matter-of-fact, I visit Greece more than any country, except for where I live. So please discontinue your attempt at trying to paint me as a Greek hater. I am sure about my Greekness, totally.

Syriza is just a bunch of communists. They are insignificant and mean nothing for most Greeks, except for those 5.5% that voted for them.

[Xiotis]

My statement has strength. It is paranoia and groundless. Why in the hell do so many Greeks listen to the bullsh.it that comes out of the mouths of fanatical Macedonians in ROM and elsewhere? Why? It is insignificant babble. It does not change anything. The history they claim as theirs do not magically get rewritten, where all of a sudden we open a book on ancient Greece, and all references to "Greek" has been replaced with "Macedonian". Nothing changes. Renaming their airport to the name of the greatest ancient Macedonian there ever was does not make him Slav and does not take him away from us. Come on, Greeks. Listening to the crap from those fanatics and getting emotional over what they name certain things just makes it seem as if we are all second guessing everything about being Greek. We are Greeks, we know our history, and we know who we are. We are positively sure of it. So why do a few fanatics move so many Greeks into giving life to their crap?

That is my view on all this. Let them make false claims. The world will never believe their claims on Greek history anyhow. Reacting to it is extremely counterproductive for Greece.

You still do not get the point. These sentiments are not confined to a lunatic fringe!

It is mainstream FYROMian thinking that asserts that they are the true representatives and heirs of the whole region they define as 'Macedonia'. Their government, cultural institutions, 'human rights' organizations, and diaspora organizations are all in on the act of promoting an unsupported history that bolsters this position.

Look at the crap posted on official government websites. In this GOVERNMENT website you can see how they try and associate modern FYROM with ancient Macedonia by talking about a mythical mixing of slavs with ancient Macedonians and how centuries later the Greeks 'dismembered' Macedonia with the implication that 'Macedonia' had existed as a static ethno/political entity populated by 'Macedonians' since ancient times.


CLICK>>Republic of Macedonia, Ministry of foreign affairs (http://www.mfa.gov.mk//default1.aspx?ItemID=291) <<CLICK

You might be a liberal minded flower child but I do not want a new Greek generation dealing with a country called 'Macedonia' 25-30 years from now that is full of yahoos who have been led to believe that they are the true representatives and heirs of the whole region they define as 'Macedonia'. This systematic brainwashing and nation building has been taking place since the Yugoslav communist era.

The difference between you and me is that you think that these sentiments are confined to an extreme nationalist fringe while I think that these sentiments are wide spread and form a consensus because these views are being pushed and facilitated by a broad spectrum of FYROM institutions both home and abroad.

Do you want me to start posting more evidence to show that these sentiments are not confined to a lunatic fringe?

[Reaper]

It is true, amazing how this slav actually tries to make us believe that what his Govt/people/current politics says does not exist and dismisses it as a fringe. Everyone who has met a fyromian knows what they think. Their Govt names airports, erects statues to A t G. It is never ending. This is not a Fyromian minority, it is a majority. That is the problem!