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Euklid
06-18-2007, 05:43 AM
The Greek Alphabet: Hellenic Invention or Phoenician Invasion?

By: George C. Chryssis

The question whether the Greek alphabet is an invention of the Hellenes, or it is a modified import of the Phoenician alphabet, has long been debated by linguists, scholars and historians alike.

The web site “writingsystems.com” states that “although Greek has traditionally been considered to be the mother of alphabets, the first to represent vowels as well as consonants, scholars are now divided on whether Greek was in fact the ancestor of all others or whether some [letters] came from Phoenician in other ways.”

In addition, in the book “The World of the Bible” the author, Roberta Harris, writes that “to the Greeks also belongs the credit for the invention of the vowel system… when the Greeks founded colonies in Italy, the alphabet was taken up by the peoples there… and has come down to us via the Romans…”

This article is based on extensive (but, by no means exhaustive) research that the author has done on the subject, in an attempt to show that ancient, as well as recent evidence, point to a favorable conclusion that the alphabet is indeed a Hellenic invention, albeit its final form, as we know it today, is the result of refinement and iterations of Hellenic writing systems through millennia of usage in the Aegean basin and the Levant.


The alleged Phoenician “invasion”

Several ancient Greek writers credit various Hellenes as the inventors of the alphabet, i.e. Prometheus, Palamedes, Linus and others, with the exception of Herodotus, who in his History he mentions the following: “Then those Phoenicians who had come with Cadmus, of whom were the Gephyrians, had lived in many other places, and imported in this land different teachings to the Greeks, and in addition letters (“grammata”), which, in my opinion, where unknown to the Greeks, initially those [letters] that they and all Phoenicians used; however, as time went by they [Phoenicians] changed their language and the type [shape] of the letters.” (Book V, 58)

This vexed passage is the heart of a long lasting and continuing debate regarding the origin of the Greek alphabet, since it has been taken at “gospel value” by many to mean that the Greeks “borrowed”, at least some, of their letters from the Phoenicians. However, an increasing number of scholars and researchers argue, with validity, that the Herodotus passage has been misunderstood and misinterpreted, if not taken out of context.

Referring to the Greek original text (quoted in the parentheses below), let us analyze the passage to extract its meaning the way Herodotus, most likely, meant it to read.

First, we notice that Herodotus makes a very important and significant disclaimer in this paragraph: he tells us that what he writes is a “personal opinion” (“os emoi dokeei”), not a widely accepted fact or a definitive statement.

Prior to this, Herodotus also makes a more general disclaimer that “his opinion” was formed not by facts, research or scientific knowledge, but rather it was based on “taking information from others” (“anapynthanomenos”).

“If we look closely in what Herodotus himself says [in his History],” writes Mary Lefkowitz in her book “Not Out Of Africa”, “he makes it clear that he is putting forward his own interpretations and conjectures about what he saw and was told by native informants.” (p. 62)

This is not an uncommon practice for Herodotus. To wit, Professor Perez Zagorin in his book “Thucydides: An Introduction for the Common Reader” writes that Herodotus “in dealing with sources of information, his attitude was neither consistently critical nor generally credulous, but somewhere in between… To his readers he declares that it is his duty to report all that is said, but not obliged to believe it… His work is full of the most varied facts, speeches, stories and digressions for whose truth it is impossible to vouch… Very likely [Thucydides] placed Herodotus among the class of writers who, he said, take little trouble in the search for the truth and readily…accept whatever comes first hand.” (p.16)

This is not to say that Herodotus is not a great historian, or that his writings are not important. On the contrary, his History is a remarkable book based on events that he encountered, but also on stories and folklore that he heard. Regarding his passage about the Greek alphabet he failed to establish a clear distinction between facts and generalizations and, in contrast to Thucydides, the historical evidence (“tekmerion”) in his narrative is missing, rendering his conjecture suspect.

To be fair, despite his controversial account, Herodotus actually makes it clear that the Greeks already had letters of their own at the time of the Phoenicians arrival to Greece and is careful to point-out that the Phoenicians introduced only a few letters (“eisegagon oliga”) that where hitherto unknown to the Greeks (“ouk eonta prin Ellesi”). Surely, the most important and by far the most critical statement that Herodotus makes in his passage is the one confirming that in time the Phoenicians “changed their language and the type (or shape) of their letters” (“ama ti foni metevallon kai ton rythmon ton grammaton”). In other words, the Phoenicians assimilated and eventually spoke Greek and wrote in Greek letters!

However, what is considered the “bone of contention” in this entire debate is Herodotus’s subsequent paragraph. It reads in (translation) as follows: “At that period, most of the Greeks living around the [Aegean] region were Ionians, who were taught these letters by the Phoenicians, and adopted them with few alterations for their own use, and using them they were saying, that the right thing to do was to call them Phoenician, since the Phoenicians brought them to Greece.”

This passage is indeed both paradoxical and suspicious, because if we accept the notion that the Ionian Greeks “adopted and used some” Phoenician letters (“metarythmisantes sfeon oliga ehreonto”), this would be a striking contradiction to the former paragraph’s strong and assertive statement that the Phoenicians where the adopters, not the Greeks! Is Herodotus confused and uses “bifurcated logic” here, or is something else happening? Let’s examine the possibilities.

As difficult as it is to translate a passage from ancient Greek without altering its meaning, keep in mind that the ancient Greek writings can (and will) take an entirely different meaning by repositioning a comma, or by observing the proper gender, or even by inserting a word that the author has omitted.

Consider the following famous Delphic oracle, given by Pythia to an ancient Greek soldier leaving for war: “Thou shall go and thou shall return not thou shall die in war” (“Exeis afexeis ou en polemo thnexeis”). As an exercise to the reader, notice how the meaning of the sentence changes completely, first by placing the comma before the word “not” and then after it!

Furthermore, consider the word “Egypt” (Aigyptos); its feminine form (e Aigyptos) refers to the country Egypt, but its male form (o Aigyptos) refers to the mythical hero Egyptus, a forefather of the Greeks, not connected with Egypt.

Fascinating indeed, but after all, this is the beauty and power of the Greek language and also its mystique and challenge to the user, reader, as well as the translator! Hence, modern translators and interpreters, who do not have either the analytical skills or good command of the language, not only make erroneous translations and interpretations, but unfortunately, these errors perpetuate and eventually amplify the problem.

With this in mind, let us reintroduce the later mentioned Herodotus paragraph, by inserting a key word (in brackets, bellow) that Herodotus may have omitted as redundant (“autonoete”): “At that period, most of the Greeks living around the region were Ionians, who were taught these [Greek] letters by the Phoenicians and adopted them…”

The suggestion that Herodotus meant “Greek letters” is consistent with what he told us in his first passage, i.e. that the Phoenicians had adopted the Greek letters (and language) and abandoned their own. Furthermore, it is important to note that he mentions the Phoenicians as “importers” of these letters rather than “inventors”, while his subsequent statement that the Ionians called the letters Phoenician (“Phoenekeia keklesthai”) is consistent with the ancient Greeks’ tendency to attach exotic origins to home-grown products, even if that practice had an unintentional long-term negative impact on their creativity and intellectual capital. This practice continues even today, inasmuch we attach “origins” to certain common items, such as French fries, Danish rolls, Canadian bacon, Venetian blinds, etc, even though it is highly unlikable that these products where actually “invented” in the named localities.

If this explanation is not sufficient to persuade the skeptics, advocates of the belief that the alphabet was indeed a Greek invention, have expressed the opinion that the second paragraph may have not been written by Herodotus altogether, but it may have been inserted at a later date by someone with the intention to reduce the importance of Herodotus original passage.

Could this be so? Well, we know that through the ages, ancient Greek writings have been altered and edited for various reasons and some more significantly than others, by various scribes and copiers of the original texts.

Herodotus History may have also been a victim of a later-day Hellenized zealot scribe, who in an attempt to minimize Hellenic cultural hegemony and inventiveness he targeted the crown jewel of all Greek accomplishments, their alphabet!

Could Herodotus been “altered”?

It would be historically unjust and unfair to claim that in a multicultural region where Greece is located, there were not intercultural interactions, influences and possibly adoptions of customs, thoughts and rituals.

The Greeks traveled throughout the Mediterranean Sea (and beyond) and came into contact with various peoples and cultures, and had an open mind and a voracious thirst for knowledge and new ideas.

Having said this, it is also safe to say that the Greeks invented what has been credited to them, and their contributions to philosophy, philology, mathematics, history, democracy, architecture and the arts, are well documented and do not need apologists.

The ancient Greek culture was “home-grown” and unique, and its accomplishments were the result of this uniqueness. However, since ancient times, other cultures studied and copied (or usurped) ancient Greek thoughts and ideas, in an attempt to lift their own ethnic group culturally, spiritually and socially.

The blatantly flawed “Afrocentric Theory” that was developed in modern times to satisfy nationalistic and multicultural tendencies, was an attempt to defraud and deceive academics, scholars and simple folks by erroneously claiming that Greek thought and civilization was “stolen” from Egypt (i.e. Africa).

Fortunately, this theory was ingeniously dispelled and totally discredited by Professor Mary Lefkowitz’s scholarly, courageous and widely accepted book “Not Out Of Africa.”

Similarly, the “Phoenician Theory” about the origins of the Greek alphabet, was developed at a time when, “as the British scholar Dr. S.G. Remproke says, the Phoenicians were given an intermediary role that is not based on any historical information, in other words, a role of the transporter of wisdom from the chosen people of Israel to the uncivilized nations, and specifically the Greeks. This, of course, could be forgiven, since this was established around the end of the Medieval Ages, when religious fanaticism and backwardness had reached such a point that Iphigenia was presented as the daughter of Ieptha; Deukalion as Noah… Orpheus (Musaeus) as Moses and other similar distortions.” (Magazine Davlos, pp. 13741-13750, January 2000)

During the last three centuries BCE, the Egyptians and the Jews, primarily those living in Alexandria during the Hellenistic times, tried very hard (and at times succeeded) to assert their own ideas and cultural beliefs through the written works of the Alexandrian Greeks, who for millennia lived, worked and flourished in Egypt and continued to exert the Hellenic influence to other cultures through their language, philosophy, science, religion and the arts.

Alexandria was the most cultural city of the Mediterranean, and “within a century after Alexandria was built … it had become the center not only of Hellenism but also of Judaism… the finest teachers, philosophers, and scientists flourishing within its walls”, writes Theodore Vrettos in his book “Alexandria, City of the Western Mind”

[B]In her book “Not Out of Africa” Dr. Marry Lefkowitz writes: “The Jews shared the Egyptians’ patronizing attitude towards the dominant Greek culture. Jewish historians were determined to show that although the Jewish people were now subject to Greeks, they not only understood Greek culture… but these writers sought to show that Greek religion and philosophy had been inspired by Hebrew ideas… But an even more definitive assertion of the derivative nature of Greek culture was made by an Alexandrian Jew called Aristobulus in the second century BCE. Aristobulus did not hesitate to invent information, or to report information invented by others… He said that Greek philosophers Pythagoras, Socrates and Plato knew and studied the books of Moses… Of course, no scholar today would take seriously that claim… [but] by the first century CE some people believed [it, and]… the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria and the Jewish historian Josephus both speak of Moses influence on Plato… Later, church fathers like Clement of Alexandria (150-215 CE) and Eusebius (260-340 CE), took a decisively more hostile line… accusing the Greeks of theft and plagiarism… The determination of both Jews and Christians to assert the priority of Hebrew culture over the Greeks, helps to explain why the Egyptians where eager to point out… that, the famous Greeks were inspired by Egyptian learning. It was a way of asserting the importance of their culture, especially in a time when they had little or no political power… But the fate of Jewish ethnic historians like Aristobulus offer a warning to modern day advocates of Greek cultural dependency. How many people have ever heard of Aristobulus? And, more importantly, who believes him?” (pp 85-86)

It is well documented, that scribes and book editors published “revised” ancient Greek writings and books in a form that, implicitly or explicitly, attempted to favor a specific ethnicity for nationalistic, religious or other subjective reasons.

Professor Richard E. Rubenstein writes in his book “Aristotle’s Children” that the Catholic Church allowed universities to teach Aristotle’s philosophy and science, provided that his books “had been examined and purged of all suspicion of error.” (p. 173)

In other words, Aristotle’s books would be analyzed, interpreted and “corrected” (read, “changed”) to fit the specific needs, teachings and dogmas of the Catholic Church!

Even the New Testament, the most revered book for billions of Christians, was not immune to considerable changes by various scribes. Professor Bart D. Ehram in his book “Misquoting Jesus” writes that “… [in] thousands of places… the manuscripts of the New Testament came to be changed by scribes… [with] additions of sizable length… there are lots of significant changes (and lots more insignificant ones) in our surviving manuscripts of the New Testament” (pp. 68-69)

What, then, could have prevented the alteration of Herodotus’ History, by racially or nationalistically motivated scribes and book copiers, in an effort to elevate ethnic pride, by asserting that a non-Greek culture had inspired and was responsible for the origins of the Greek alphabet?

Unfortunately, we do not have the original Herodotus manuscript to compare and offer a definitive and conclusive proof to this theory, but why should we passively accept the negating rather than the assertive statement of his account about the Greek alphabet?

After all, in the absence of conclusive evidence for a claim that the Greeks themselves had arrived from the East – the Greeks always regarded themselves as “indigenous” (“autochthones”) -- the Levantines and their advocates were determined to show that at the very least the Greek alphabet was an eastern import, and had Sinaitic-Phoenician-Semitic roots!

The subsequent topics further examine this claim and present documented historical facts, as well as recent archeological findings that dispel a derivative theory, and raise claim to support the theory that the Greek alphabet (at some shape, form and factor) not only was invented and used by the Hellenes before Phoenician times, but eventually this alphabet made its way to the Levant, to be used first by the Philistines and subsequently by the Phoenicians and the Semitic peoples of that region.



Was Minoan Crete the birthplace of the alphabet?

Long before the excavation of Knossos in Crete by Sir Arthur Evans, scholars believed and taught that Greek writing began around the time of Homer, at 800 BCE.

The excavating work of Sir Arthur Evans in Crete, unveiled the Minoan writing scripts, known today as Linear A and Linear B.

Michael Ventris, an English architect, deciphered Linear B writing and proved, beyond any doubt, that the Minoans of the second millennium BCE were speaking and writing in Greek. The Aegean of that time was indeed Hellenic. In fact, as it turns out, the Linear scripts use many symbols that resemble letters of the Greek alphabet.

Recent work that has been done on the decipherment of an even earlier Cretan script found on the Phaistos Disk, especially by Dr. Steven R. Fischer, proved that the disk writing is also Greek (contrary to hitherto various theories that the disk script was of Northern Semitic, Hittite, Egyptian, or other origins) thus extending the Hellenic connection of the Minoans into the third millennium BCE.

Dr. Fischer in his book “Glyphbraker” presents a meticulous and scholarly account of his decipherment of the Phaistos Disk that was based on the glyph correspondences between the Phaistos Disk and symbols of Linears A and B. His work has been endorsed by “The National Geographic” and is by far the most credible and realistic decipherment of the Phaistos Disk to-date.

In his book, Dr. Fischer concludes that “the Minoan language of ancient Crete is the oldest documented language not only of Europe but also of the entire Indo-European language family… it was a Hellenic tongue, sister to Mycenaean Greek [Minoan Greek]… the Phaistos Disk indicates a preference for the written word in ancient Crete (it also suggests widespread literacy)… [and] the Hellenes were the first in the Aegean, indeed in Europe, to use writing…” (pp. 119-120)

The Minoans spoke and wrote in Greek, at least 1300 years prior to the appearance of the Phoenicians! Some may argue that the Phaistos Disk is “written” in pictorial script (glyphs) and it is syllabic, not alphabetic. This is true. However, the relation of the Phaistos Disk to the syllabic Linear A and B scripts is stunningly similar, thus proving the continuity and evolution of these writing scripts. Furthermore, the similarity of the Minoan writing symbols to the Phoenician scripts (i.e. Proto-Sinaitic, ca. 1700 BCE; and Phoenician ca. 700 BCE), which are also syllabic and not alphabetic, suggest a relative connection that should not, and must not, be taken lightly or go unnoticed.

Hence, the question at hand is, did the birth and early evolution of the Greek alphabet begun in the East (Phoenicia) or the West (Crete)?

The ancient historian Diodorus of Sicily mentions in his writings that Dosiades, a writer of epigrams, told him that the letters were invented by the Cretans (“Dosiades de en Kriti phisin evrethinai auta [grammata].) (Diodorus, II 783.14)

Furthermore, according to the “On-Line Encyclopedia Britannica”, the late Sir Arthur Evans, the brilliant archaeologist and scholar who dedicated most of his life excavating, deciphering and documenting the advanced civilization of the Minoans, argued ingeniously that “the alphabet was taken over from Crete by the Cherethites (Kereti=Cretans) and Palestu (Philistines=Pelasgoi) who established for themselves settlements on the coast of Palestine. From them it passed to the Phoenicians, who were their neighbors, if not their kinsfolk.”

This is a statement and scientific observation of great importance, and has far reaching implications in the quest to identify not only the origins of the alphabet, but the origins of civilization in the Mediterranean.

Unfortunately, Evans’ theory of the origin of the alphabet laid dormant (and frankly, in my opinion, purposely ignored) until recent archaeological findings in Israel regarding the Philistines, a race that, until recently, we only knew from Old Testament references, have shed new light on the migrations, settlements and cultures of the people in the Mediterranean basin, and has stirred renewed interest in the relation between the Levantines (Middle Easterners) and the Minoan Greeks.

Will, finally, Evans be exonerated and his theories be proven right? Well, we are now almost certain that, despite previous theories that the Minoans migrated from the Levant, recent scientific and archeological findings are proving that it was the other way around!

As we understand and analyze these new findings, not through the prism of narrow nationalistic, ethnic or political interests, but in true and responsible scholarship, old misconceptions will tumble and the truth will prevail.

The Philistines: Savage warriors or peaceful innovators?

The Philistines was an immigrant culture and appears to settle in Palestine around 1200 BCE, establishing important cities like Ashrod, Ekron, Ashkelon, Gath and Gaza that constituted the Philistine Pentapolis (Five Cities).

The Philistines were known to the Egyptians as “Palestu” and also as the “Sea Peoples” and their migration to the Levant from their homeland might have been due to famine, outside invaders or devastating earthquakes and natural disasters.

Moshe and Trude Dothan, professors of Archeology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, have spent over 30 years excavating, analyzing, reconstructing and painstakingly recording the Philistine civilization, hence we now have a good, albeit still incomplete, understanding and appreciation of the contributions and the positive impact of their highly advanced culture in this area.

Historical and scientific evidence show unequivocally that the Philistines “were composed of Greek-speaking tribes” and recent archeological evidence point-out that they most certainly came from Crete (Caphtor). It is interesting to note that the biblical Cherethites were Cretans (Cherethites=Kereti=Cretans) and they became King David's personal and professional military force (1 Sam. 30:14).

The Cherethites are linked to the Philistines by Ezekiel, “I stretch out my hand against the Philistines, cut off the Cherethites, and destroy the rest of the seacoast” (Ez. 25:15-17). Zephaniah also mentions four of the five Philistine cities in his prophecies against Philistia, “For Gaza shall be deserted, and Ashkelon shall become a desolation; Ashrod’s people shall be driven out at noon, and Ekron shall be uprooted” (Zep. 2:4-7). Zephaniah further affirms that the Canaanites and Philistines were kinfolks from Crete: “Ah, inhabitants of the seacoast, you nation of the Cherethites! The word of the Lord is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines…” (Zephaniah 2:5-11)

The link and relation of the Philistines/Canaanites to Cretans is further strengthened by the fact that the Philistinean city of Gaza was also known as Minoah, the same name given to several trade stations that started from Crete. Joseph Yahuda, in his book “Hebrew is Greek”, associates the name “Philistines” with that of “Pelasgoi”, early inhabitants of Crete (Pelasgoi => Pelaskoi (g turns dialectally into k) => Pelastoi (k turns dialectally into t) => Palestoi (e and a interchange) => Palestu => Philistines.) (p. 3).

Although the Old Testament portrays the Philistines as “godless violent warriors, dull-witted and uncouth barbarians”, the Dothans, through their excavations and scholarly work, have revealed a culture and civilization just the opposite -- questioning whether the Biblical authors were vilifying their more cultured enemies, because of ethnic hostilities.

The archeological discoveries revealed that the Philistines were accomplished architects, sophisticated urban planners, highly artistic potters (using Mycenaean/Minoan decorative motifs), weavers, skilled iron-workers and advanced technologists. In short, the Philistines were a culture that profoundly affected and influenced other cultures around them. A civilized race, indeed, that used Aegean-style hearths in their buildings, practiced Aegean-cultic religion and cremated and buried their dead in Minoan/Mycenaean-style, rock-cut chamber tombs.

Gerhard Herm in his book “The Phoenicians” writes that “the Philistines had not only had close contact with the Achaeans (i.e. Hellenes) but in fact stemmed directly from them. Goliath, who challenged David wearing Mycenaean armour, could have been a descendant of Menelaus, Achilles, Odysseus… Thus, here in the Gaza strip the last act of a drama was played out which had begun in Crete…” (p. 56)

Until recently, scientists and scholars were unsure whether or not the early Philistines had a writing system. But, is it possible that an advanced culture like the Philistines, with established trade, religion and social structure could not write, while less advanced cultures around them allegedly did?

The Dothans in their book “People of the Sea: The Search for the Philistines” show a tablet that they excavated in Israel, dated around 1100 BCE, with early Philistine writing, that is related to the Minoan Linear scripts. Although not many examples of this writing have been found as yet to establish the definitive link and to aid the decipherment of this script, scholars are now almost certain that the Philistines used linear writing to record events.

In early 2007, in an article that appeared in “The Israel Exploration Journal”, distinguished Harvard professors Lawrence E. Stager and Frank Moore Cross commenting on several Philistine inscriptions found in the ancient city of Ashkelon in Israel, wrote that the inscriptions "reveal, for the first time, convincing evidence that the early Philistines of Ashkelon were able to read and write in a non-Semitic language, as yet undeciphered… perhaps it is not too bold to propose that the inscription is written in a form of Cypro-Minoan script utilized and modified by the Philistines — in short, that we are dealing with the Old Philistine script." Cross further states that the script had some characteristics of Linear A, the writing system used in the Aegean from 1650 B.C. to 1450 B.C. This undeciphered script was replaced by another, Linear B, which was identified with the Minoan civilization of Crete and was finally decoded in the mid-20th century.

Hence, these Cretan migrants brought with them not only the Minoan Greek language, but also the linear script, the early Hellenic syllabic alphabet that planted the seed for the evolution of a regional rooted alphabet.

To wit, excavations at Tel Miqne in Israel in 1996 unearthed a Philistine dedication inscription of the seventh century BCE, written in a script dubbed by scholars “Phoenician-Canaanite”, in the absence of a more precise alternative nomenclature.

This tablet of Ekron, as it is commonly known today, is written in none other than a “Philistine” (i.e. Cretan) script that most likely evolved from the Minoan linear scripts, and was eventually adopted by both the Canaanites and the Phoenicians “their neighbors [and] their kinfolk”, according to Evans.

Furthermore, Aaron Demsky in an article published in “Biblical Archeology” suggests that the inscription of the tablet of Ekron names one of the Philistine kings as “Akys” (Greek: Acheos = Hellene), and his patron deity as “Ptnyh” (Greek: Potnia = Divine Lady => Great Goddess of the Aegean.), further confirming the Hellenic origin and lineage of the Philistines, their language and their writing (pp. 53-58.)

Sr. Arthur Evans may have finally been proven right! The letters of the so-called “Phoenician” alphabet were first used by the Philistines and had Minoan Hellenic roots!


Further Evidence and Conclusion

I have been and continue to be intrigued by the many theories presented in Joseph Yahuda’s book “Hebrew is Greek” where, through extensive linguistic research, the author builds a strong case that the language of the ancient Hebrews, who were known as Khabiru and Hepiru respectively in the Syrian and Egyptian annals, “was continental Greek” and that “the Greek and Hebrew alphabets bear a striking resemblance to one another, in the order of letters, their names shape and pronunciation.” (p. 19)

Yahuda further states in his book that “it is Greek that anciently – long before the Trojan War – started altering into Hebrew, and not Hebrew into Greek.” (p. 633)

The same author convincingly asserts in his book that “when the Hellenic affinity of the Phoenicians had long been forgotten, it was assumed that the identity of the Greek with the Phoenician alphabet was simply a matter of borrowing.” (p. 8)

These are powerful statements, based on thirty years of painstaking and meticulous scholarly research, by Joseph Yahuda, the results of which were compiled in the above mentioned book, a monumental work of about 700 pages.

The results of this research may be viewed as controversial and thought-provoking, yet they are well documented, compelling and scholarly, hence they cannot be waived-off, dismissed or ignored. This book diverges from narrow nationalistic motives and through science it casts doubt to the hitherto widely accepted theory that the Hebrew alphabet and language - as well as the Phoenician - are of Semitic origin!

Nor we can ignore the fact that as far back as the third millennium BCE, the Middle East was colonized by Minoan Philistines, and that the Phoenicians were related to the Philistines, and they all spoke Greek dialects and wrote using Greek characters.

In fact, the ancient historian Cornelius Tacitus (56-117 CE), in his book “The Histories”, writes this: “Some say that the Jews were fugitives from the island of Crete… Evidence of this is sought in the name. There is a famous mountain in Crete called Ida; the neighboring tribe, the Ideaei, came to be called Judaei by a barbarous lengthening of the national name.” Could this obvious etymological similarity be a mere coincidence? Furthermore, could it go unnoticed?

I submit that as archeology unearths more evidence, old theories will be revised and the new findings will eventually reveal the facts and truth. I also submit that the early Hellenic influence goes beyond the Aegean and Mediterranean basins. As Joseph Yahuda writes in his book, “four thousand years ago the whole of the Middle East was overrun, colonized and controlled by Greeks and allied tribes.” (p. 7)

Consequently, the languages and the writing systems that people of these regions used were developed and originated in the Aegean basin and mainland Greece and made their way to the Levant (and not the other way around) through these settlers.

The Greek alphabet is a product of this human migration and cultural evolution and was developed, in full circle, among people that shared a common Hellenic lineage, heritage and culture. The Greek alphabet, indeed, has Hellenic roots!

The debate on this and several related issues may not stop, and it should not, albeit debates of this sort must be based on historical and scientific facts and, as Dr. Dianne Ravitch of NYU said, “history must be based on evidence, openly arrived at and openly argued, not myth, ideology or opinion.”

About the author: George C. Chryssis is an entrepreneur, an award winning poet, a community activist, and a philanthropist. A prolific author, he has written four poetry books, a technical book (translated and published in Chinese also) and has contributed numerous editorials, commentaries, literary and general articles in various publications. He is also a founder and former publisher of “The Hellenic Voice” weekly national newspaper. For his contributions to Hellenism, community, business, literature, education and philanthropy, he has received over twenty awards and citations. He lives and works in Massachusetts.



Selected Bibliography

1. Demsky, Aaron, Biblical Archeology Review (NY, 1998)

2. Dothan, Moshe and Trude, People of the Sea: The Search for the Philistines (Macmillan, New York, 1992)

3. Ehram, Bart D., Misquoting Jesus (HarperCollins Publishers, New York, 2005)

4. Fischer, Steven R., Glyphbraker (Copernicus, New York, 1997)

5. Friedman, Richard E., Who wrote the Bible? (HarperCollins Publishers, New York, 1997)

6. Greenberg, Gary, Myths of the Bible (Sourcebooks, Inc., Naperville, IL, 2002)

7. Harris, Roberta L., The World of the Bible (Thames and Hudson Ltd, London, 1995)

8. Herm, Gerhard, The Phoenicians: The Purple Empire of the Ancient World (William Morrow and Company, Inc., New York, 1975)

9. Hopper, R.J., The Early Greeks (Harper & Row Publishers, New York, 1976)

10. Kalopoulos, Michael, The Great Lie (Xlibris, USA, 2003)

11. Lefkowitz, Mary, Not Out Of Africa (Basic Books, New York, 1996)

12. Rubenstein, Richard, Aristotle’s Children (Harcourt, Orlando, FL, 2003)

13. Vrettos, Theodore, Alexandria, City of the Western Mind (The Free Press, New York, 2001)

14. Yahuda, Joseph, Hebrew is Greek (Becket Publications, Oxford, 1982)

15. Zagorin, Perez, Thucydides: An Introduction for the Common Reader (Princeton University Press, Princeton, NJ, 2005)

Orphic_Hymn
06-18-2007, 06:22 AM
Nice article but I have to ask where is this found ??

is careful to point-out that the Phoenicians introduced only a few letters (“eisegagon oliga”)

The text as I have it is:


οἱ δὲ Φοίνικες οὗτοι οἱ σὺν Κάδμῳ ἀπικόμενοι, τῶν ἦσαν οἱ Γεφυραῖοι, ἄλλα τε πολλὰ οἰκήσαντες ταύτην τὴν χώρην ἐσήγαγον διδασκάλια ἐς τοὺς Ἕλληνας καὶ δὴ καὶ γράμματα, οὐκ ἐόντα πρὶν Ἕλλησι ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκέειν, πρῶτα μὲν τοῖσι καὶ ἅπαντες χρέωνται Φοίνικες: μετὰ δὲ χρόνου προβαίνοντος ἅμα τῇ φωνῇ μετέβαλλον καὶ τὸν ῥυθμὸν τῶν γραμμάτων.

Euklid
06-18-2007, 06:28 AM
This is copy paste Orphea.

Maybe its further lower or upper on the text.

Where can i find this text? All of it?

This is though an insignifact part of the argument for it is only half of a single minor argument, that in any case does not find its way in front of the archeological findings.

Can we deny that Linear B is fully Elliniki and Linear A is again, Elliniki or that Linear A is the ancestor of the Elliniki?

Impossible, Illogical, Anoeto to deny., who gives a crap about Herodotus opinion, when himself he tells one to do so, and when so many others have attested otherwise.

I think his essay needs some refinement and it shall be a very good argument.

Orphic_Hymn
06-18-2007, 07:07 AM
I know its a copy paste, I've seen it before.

You could try Perseus (www.perseus.tufts.edu) or Perseus Hopper (www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/) (I prefer the 2nd since it has the texts written in Hellenic while the 1st in 'greeklish')

But I'll disagree that its insignificant since thats actually the foundation of his argument, that "only some" letters were introduced/adopted/copied.... or add whichever term you think is best.
giati tetoia parapoihsh tou keimenou ??

Yes Linear B' is undoubtably a Hellenic script and the connection to Linear A' (and that to Cretan Hieroglyphics) are many BUT since no attempted decipherment has been internationally accepted with various theories going back and forth. We can't prove beyond doubt that it is indeed a Hellenic script even though we both believe so.

Euklid
06-18-2007, 07:13 AM
I tried there yesterday and today, and it was down. So, i couldn't wait.

We do not need to prove it, there are many academic articles that have already published such works, it is simply not widely accepted by the consensus, therefore we should discuss about Evans, Fischer, Lefkowitz, Yahuda, more and bring them back on the surface of the discussion, not leave them dormant cause the consensus is rotten.

Lakonian
06-19-2007, 11:29 PM
I tried there yesterday and today, and it was down. So, i couldn't wait.

We do not need to prove it, there are many academic articles that have already published such works, it is simply not widely accepted by the consensus, therefore we should discuss about Evans, Fischer, Lefkowitz, Yahuda, more and bring them back on the surface of the discussion, not leave them dormant cause the consensus is rotten.


Re megale,

neotho magali thoxa when i see you , my blood, fighting for this. Good on you. If i was with you id drink tsipouro to the point where il be dancing with the nymphs haha. Anyways, im at work, when i get home il scan pages from a book which argues Palasgian used Linear A.

Another thing, for anyone that supports that Phoenicians gave us letters i want proof not only in text, but in archeological findings......show me there historians recording the day the traded there holy words which assited in the birth of the Helenic one. Sho wmme there laws and religious writings....how is it that a country can have these important letter yet not create a system like we did. Thsi is my arguemnet toa ll who say we took astronomy mathematics and so on , why didnt these originators go to length we did

Morphesau
06-20-2007, 03:25 AM
Orphea. Maybe you've seen it here posted some where just can't find it now? A post of mine from many many different sources. Here is a link to where I know there is one and have posted it at all Greek forums. Euklid's topic is different some names are the same.

HELLENIC COMMUNITY FORUMS - hellenicplanet.com (http://www.hellenicplanet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=378)

This one is a must read from my topic;

PHOENICIAN "ALPHABET": AN HISTORICAL DECEPTION
Overwhelming evidence that one of the most important discoveries in the history of civilization is Greek

Republished from the Athenian newspaper Apogevmatini.

Kostas Katis, the manager of the Greek daily, Apogevmatini,, is one of the only high-ranking executives of the Athenian press that understands the exact magnitude of one of the greatest deceptions in history: a deception that usurps and distorts Greek History and Civilization. It is of utmost importance that the truth be restored not only for modern Greece, but also for the whole of humanity.

The deception that alphabetical script was discovered by the Phoenicians is a long-lived one. For the past 14 years [the Greek scholarly magazine] Davlos has published numerous articles on this problem. This prompted K. Katis to ask that we submit a relevant article for his mainstream daily so that this important issue would become known to a wider audience. Davlos’ publisher [Dimitris I. Lambrou] wrote the article that follows, and it was originally published in a prime position in the Sunday edition of Apogevmatini on 21 November 1999 (pages 42-43). This article summarizes the strong evidence against the "Phoenician Deception," and proves that the greatest discovery in the history of civilization is Greek. We believe it necessary to republish this article in [this issue of] Davlos exactly as it appeared in the daily.

A SCIENTIFIC MONSTROSITY

According to linguistic theory, an "alphabet" is defined as "the sum of symbols following a specific sequence and order used to ascribe the essential utterances of a language, under the condition that each utterance represents only one symbol and vice-versa". Consequently, in alphabetical script (as an example, in the writings of the people of Europe, America, Australian, as well as the other parts of the world) each letter represents one essential sound.

This is not true for the imperfect alphabets expressed through syllables where each symbol represents a syllable (with two or more voiced sounds). For example, in Greek Linear A and B, there is a symbol that represents the syllable ko (k + o), a symbol that represents the syllable po (p + o), etc. In Phoenician writing (which has only consonants and no vowels), this situation is even worse, as far as we can tell from the small amount of existing samples. In Phoenician, each symbol is not equivalent to one specific syllable, but to a variety of syllables, and thus the reader can use his imagination when attempting to decipher the sounds. For example, there are consonants which can be read as either ba, bou, be, bi, bo, etc. Others that can be read as gou, ga, ge, go, and so on. Consequently, Phoenician script does not constitute an alphabet, and is not even an advanced form of syllabic script nearing the perfection of the equivalent Greek syllabic writings.

It is truly amazing to think that, in the academic world of the past 150 years, the almost contradictory term of "Phoenician alphabet" has been established, which, in reality refers to a type of writing that has nothing to do with an alphabet. It is even more unbelievable to think that the scientific dogma that Greek came from Phoenician has been enforced.

Not only is Phoenician not an alphabet, it is a less advanced form of writing than Greek Linear A and B. So, professor G. Babiniotis' statement that "Phoenician writing is something like a syllabic alphabet" must be rejected and replaced with the correct characterization of Phoenician as a "purely concise syllable system of writing," as stated by the former president of the Greek Society of Philologists, Pan. Georgountzos (see "The Alphabet: A Greek Discovery" by Pan. Georgountzos, Davlos, issue 142, October 1993, page 8242).

THE GREEKNESS OF THE ALPHABET

a) Archaeological Evidence

The theory that the alphabet is a Phoenician discovery has been maintained through the argument, among other things, that certain symbols of Phoenician writing are similar to the letters of the alphabet. For example, the Phoenician alef is the reverse or sideways Greek "A." This argument was a strong one until about 100 years ago, when linguists and historians still maintained that the Greeks did not know how to write before 800 B. C.! Around 1900 A.D., however, Arthur Evans excavated the Greek Minoan Crete and discovered the Greek Linear writings, whose symbols corresponded to 17 of the 24 letters of the Greek Alphabet.

Given that (A), the most ancient evidence of the Greek scripts (Linear A and Linear B) that were later discovered in Pylos, Mycenae, Menidi and Thebes -- but also in more northern areas up to the Danube river as well -- were dated to before 1500 B.C. And (B), that the Phoenicians and their writings appear in history no earlier than 1300 BC, Evans was the first person to express doubts about the theory that the Greeks received their script from the Phoenicians. He put forward the scientific suspicion that it was probably the other way round.

The doubts pertaining as to who was first -- the Phoenicians or the Greeks -- in discovering writing, became a certainty when French professor, Paul Fore, an internationally acclaimed specialist on Prehistoric Archaeology, published a report in Nestor (an American Archaeological Journal of the University of Indiana -- 16th year, 1989, page 2288). In this report, he submits and deciphers plates with Greek Linear writing found at the cyclopean wall of Pilikates, in Ithaca, dated, through the use of modern scientific methods, back to 2700 B.C., The language of these plates was Greek, and the decoding by professor Fore resulted in the following syllabic text, expressed phonetically: A]RE-DA-TI. DA-MI-U-A-.A-TE-NA-KA-NA-RE (ija)-TE. The phonetic equivalent of this is translated, always according to the professor, as: "Ιδού τι εγώ η Αρεδάτις δίδω εις την ανασσαν, την θεάν Ρέαν: 100 αίγας, 10 πρόβατα, 3 χοίρους" [Here is what I, Aredatis, gives to the queen- goddess Rea, 100 goats, 10 sheep, 3 pigs]. (See, "Davlos" magazine, issue 107, November 1990, page 6103). Thus, Fore proved that the Greeks were writing and speaking Greek at least 1400 years before the appearance of the Phoenicians and their script in history.

But, the archaeological excavations in Greece during the last 15 years have given us many more great surprises: The Greeks were writing using not only Linear A and B, but also a type of writing identical to that of the alphabet since at least 6000 B.C.

In fact, at Dispilio, in the lake of Kastoria, in northern Greece, professor G. Houmouziadis discovered a plate with writing very similar to that of the alphabet, which was dated, using radioactive Carbon-14 and visual photothermal methodology, back to 5250 B.C. (see Davlos, issue 147). Three years later, N. Samson, a curator of the Prehistoric and Classical Antiquities Department, discovered shards of vases ("ostraka") with letters identical to the present Greek alphabet while excavating at the "Cyclop’s Cave," on the deserted island of Yioura, near the inhabited island of Alonnissos, in the Northern Sporades island complex. These vases were dated to 5,500 to 6,000 B.C. with the same methods (see "Davlos," issue 185, May 1997). The same archaeologist, while performing excavations on the island of Milos, discovered vessels of the proto-cycladic period (mid-3rd millennium B.C.) with letters identical to the Greek letters: "X," "N," "M," "K," "Ξ" [ksi],"Π" [p], "Ο," & "Ε." (See N. Samson's interview in Davlos, issue 204, December 1998, page 12749.)

It is apparent that these archaeological discoveries have given a "comical' character to the so-called "Phoenician Theory" on the discovery of writing. In addition, these archaeological discoveries have revolutionized chronological dating of Greek history as it is taught today, as well as the world history of civilization itself. (See also the book by Con. Koutrouvelli, "Re-establishing the Chronology of Prehistoric Times based primarily on astronomical information from Ancient Writers," Davlos Publishing, 1999.)

b) The somewhat mathematical proof

While the house-of-cards which provided "proof"' of the so-called "Phoenician alphabet" was being torn down by archaeological discoveries, another overwhelming piece of evidence surfaced. This evidence was offered to us by the 20-year long discreet and timid research of the Greek Language and Writing by a great researcher, Elias Tsatsomoiros. Unfortunately E. Tsatsomoiros passed away on December 19th 1991, after having, however, completed his revolutionary work, History of the Genesis of the Greek Language-from the hunter-gatherer to the time of Zeus-the Deciphering of the Greek Alphabet. The undersigned [writer of this article] had the honor of publishing and editing this work (Davlos Publishing, 1991), but also the honor of having worked closely with the researcher for more than a decade. We had long discussions on the numerous problems arising from the research, and we had published a series of articles in Davlos magazine. This memorable researcher proved in a remarkable way that every letter of the Greek alphabet contained a consistent code meaning, which is literally introduced either exactly or metaphorically within the general meaning of the Greek word it belongs to, as a partial meaning. Consequently, every (ancient) Greek word is basically an acronym (similar to D(imosia) E (picheirisi) H(lektrismou) [=ΔΕΗ in Greek, or as U(nited) N(ations), in English], where every letter provides a significant or less significant notional element, and then, they all together provide the logical definition of the meaning expressed by the word. The "significant difference" of each word's meaning is usually provided by the first letter.

Obviously, there is not enough space in this article to present the code meaning of the letters of the Greek alphabet as a whole, as they are analyzed in this revolutionary volume of research in the field of human speech. As an example, I will choose only one of the 24 letters of our alphabet, "Ypsilon" = "Y" or, small case, "u" (pronounced, long-e "eepsilon," the 20th letter of the Greek alphabet, and familiar to us as "Y" in the so-called "Latin" alphabet-- which is nothing more than a variation of the Greek "Chalcidean" alphabet). Ypsilon, therefore, as its shape indicates, has the code meaning of "a cavity" οr, if reversed, of a "convexity." This meaning is introduced into the words containing this letter, and sometimes, by extension into the meaning of liquids (which, through their natural flow end up filling the "cavity"). I will quickly mention some of the names of vessels and liquids (such as the amphiconical κ-Υ-πελλο which is dated back to 2700 B.C. and is displayed at the Heraklion Museum). One may add to the words mentioned there, many others, such as kot-Y-li, go-Y-ttos, tr-Y-blion, p-Y-xis, amphore-Y-s, b-Y-tion, l-Y-chnos, procho-Y-s, ske-Y-os, etc, all having the meaning of a curved object. Also, some other words such as k-Y-hsis (rounding of the stomach of an eng-Y-os [pregnant] woman); k-Y-ma (curving on the surface of the ocean); cr-Y-pti (curving of the ground); the preposition [h-Y-po] Y-po (meaning under a certain level); h-Y-per (preposition meaning above a certain level); Y-psos =height; and all of the hundreds of words that have h-Y-po or h-Y-per as a prefix, as well as thousands of others. This discovery, which unfortunately has been officially ignored, is a continuation of the forgotten Platonic approach to the problem of language (see Plato’s Cratylus ).

This theory:

1. Completely rejects the theorem that the Greek language came from another language (the so-called "Indo-European"), since it is proven to be the only non-conventional language of the world. In other words, the only language where a relationship between the "word" (as a form) and the "meaning of the word" is established.
2. Consequently, it is proven that Greek is the first and only created language of the human species which provided the basis for all "conventional" languages, as are all the other languages of the world (where there is no causative relationship between the form and the meaning). These other languages are a corrupt form of Greek.
3. This theory proves, without a doubt, that the alphabet was created by the Greeks so that the 24 or 27 code letters would aid in attributing the meanings of the Greek words (and only of these).
4. Comparatively, this theory shows that the symbols of the Phoenician writings and their nouns, e.g., "alef" =ox, "beth" = hut, "gimel = camel, etc., not only do not contain coded meaning, but are also associated or refer to [the] primitive animal conditions [one would expect in a culturally backward society].

THE HERODOTUS EXTRACT

All the Greek writers who mention the alphabet (they called it "grammata") consider it a very ancient Greek invention (by Prometheus, Palamedes, Linus, etc). The theory of the Phoenician alphabet was always, and is still, based on an exception to this general rule. This exception is an excerpt from Herodotus, that he himself presents as his 'personal opinion' ("ως εμοι δοκεει" = "as it seems to me"). This opinion was formed based on the sayings of others, as he himself mentions in the previous paragraphs ("αναπυνθανομενος" = taking information from others). Let us have a look at the Herodotus’ excerpt (History, E 58):

[58. As far as the Phoenicians, they, who arrived with Cadmus, including the Gefiraioi, had lived in many other places and introduced also arts (new and unknown) to the Greeks; in fact, and also (some) writing, which had not been known to the Greeks before that, as I think, first this writing which was used by all the Phoenicians. With the passing of time, however, the Phoenicians changed this type of writing along with their language.]

The most important thing about this excerpt is that in the critical phrase "… ama tin foni metevallon kai ton rhithmon ton grammaton," it is disclosed that the Phoenicians-Gefiraioi that went to Viotia with Cadmus brought some form of writing with them. But, as the Phoenicians "changed their language" (they learned Greek, in other words), they also changed their writing (they started writing, therefore, with the existing ancient Greek writing that already existed in Viotia). Although this statement was made by Herodotus, the translators, subsequently, provided the translation [meaning] that the local Greek Viotes and not the Phoenician emigrants changed their language and writing and adopted the Phoenician!

This generally incoherent reference to the alphabet, as it has been saved, has been obviously altered and meddled with, who knows by whom and when. Let us look at the suspicious continuation of the text, as it has arrived to us:

Around them (the Phoenicians) lived at that place during that year (year of Cadmus) Ionian Greeks, who received through contact or through teachings by the Phoenicians their writings, changing their own writing which they used little. When using this writing and since this writing had been introduced to Greece by Phoenicians, they called it Phoenician, as was just.

According to E. Tsatsomoiros (Davlos, issue 118), this reference, in other words that the Ionian Greeks living around the Phoenicians received the Phoenician writing and, using a few of its letters, since they had altered them and since it was just, they called it Phoenician-to pay tribute to the people who brought it to Greece, is a striking contradiction. Consequently, one can assume that this is a forged paragraph, hypothetically explanatory, which aims to reduce the previous statement "…as they changed their language, they changed their writing," to an unimportant statement. This is how the "Phoenician Theory" was substantiated and is maintained as an obvious forgery.

IN ADDITION

The "Phoenician Theory" was established in Europe during a time, when, as the renowned British classical scholar, S. G. Rembroke (The Legacy of Greece, Oxford University Press, 1984) wrote, "The Phoenicians were given an intermediary role "that is not based on any historical information". A role, in other words, of the transporter of wisdom and civilization from the "chosen" people of Israel to the "uncivilized" nations, and specifically the Greeks. This, of course, could be forgiven, since this was established around the end of the Medieval Ages, when religious fanaticism and backwardness had reached such a point that the daughter of Agamemnon, Iphigenia, is presented as the daughter of Iephtha; Deukalion is presented as Noah; Appis is a consul of Joseph; Apollo, Priam, Tiresias, and Orpheus are corrupted personae of Moses; the story of the Argonauts is the crossing of the Israelites from Egypt to Palestine, and other similar distortions. The above are noted by Rembroke.

And we conclude: At the time, Hellenism was in comatose spiritual condition regarding national and historical awareness, and therefore totally unable to defend its history and civilization, and for this reason could not react and did not react. Today, it is with our tolerance that our language is deemed "Indo-European," and our writing "Phoenician," our Athena and our Socrates are presented as "Blacks," and our civilization as "African." What spiritual situation are we in now? [i.e., What’s our excuse this time?]

Notes:

On page 13745 of this article, is a picture of a piece of shard [pottery] dated to 6,000 B.C., found on the islet of Youra of the North Sporades island complex with Greek alphabetical writings. One can see the letters "A," "Y," & "D" [alpha, eepsilon, and delta ], almost identical to the Greek letters of the classical alphabets. This finding proves that the Greek alphabet is older than the Greek Linear writings. This finding also completely and definitely disproves the false theory that the Greeks got their alphabet from the Phoenicians, who made their historical appearance around 1300 B.C., in other words about 4,500 to 5,000 years after the creation of this plaque at Youra.

On page 13747 are shown letter-symbols from the Proto-cycladic vessels of Milos (mid-third millennium B.C.). One can distinguish the [letter] "X" [chi] to the left and the [letter] "N" to the right. These letters are written just as the letters of the Greek alphabet are written today. Other vessels were also found with "M," "K," "Ξ" [ksi], "Π" [p], "O," and "E."

Found here;
Phoenician Desception (http://www.grecoreport.com/phoenician.htm)

And for Yahuda's own words, Hebrew nothing more than "Greek wearing a mask.

Found Here;
Hebrew is Greek (http://www.grecoreport.com/hebrew_is_greek.htm)

Orphic_Hymn
06-20-2007, 04:41 AM
Re seis.. let me clarify that I do not support the Phoenician origin theory, but for the simple reason that we search and find evidence to support our view, I produce the logical arguments that anyone that looks into it would. (δικηγορος του διαβολου:rolleyes:)
Actually its almost two years ago that I brought up the arguments against the Phoenician theory in this forum (see akritas' topic " From Linear B to Ancient Macedonian Script") but supporting it is one thing and accepting distortions (like the one I noted above) of texts in order to promote our beilefs a totally different issue.


Another thing, for anyone that supports that Phoenicians gave us letters i want proof not only in text, but in archeological findings......show me there historians recording the day the traded there holy words which assited in the birth of the Helenic one.

You're making the same mistake you made in a similar discussion, language is one thing and script/letters/symbols (or whatever we'd call them) a different thing.

As for proof, the major argument against the adoption, is based on archeologic finds like the highly debated inscriptions of Tell El Yahoodieh. BUT even if we were to include the Tell El Yahoodieh in addition to those found on pots in Pilikates, in Ithaca, Ischia..etc the problem is that we only have the use of single letters and not an entire text not even a whole word not to mention a sentence, which is what they can provide and what has lead them to suggest adoption of Phoenician script.





Orphea. Maybe you've seen it here posted some where just can't find it now? A post of mine from many many different sources. Here is a link to where I know there is one and have posted it at all Greek forums. Euklid's topic is different some names are the same.

I was thinking of something I've read in a magazine or some site as an article and not in a forum, but either way, its a good post.

My only obsrvation is that you too mention the "some letters" and that you pay far too much attention to Herodotus' account and you try to overthrow it by analyzing and explaining the text when I believe its really simple.

Let me explain.. IF Kadmos had brought a script with him this under no circumstance could have been the so-called Phoenician script for the simple reason that his alleged settlement and founding of Thebes takes place prior to the Troyan war. By adding the fact that archeologic finds raise Thebe's foundation to at least 1350-1400BC makes us safely conclude that Herodotus' account of Kadmos allegedly bringing and introducing a script to the Hellenes is simply wrong since Linear B' (which is the script used at that time) besids the fact that it was used prior to his alleged arrival, is undoubtably Hellenic and we have absolutely no finds what so ever of the allegedly "imported" script.

Lakonian
06-20-2007, 04:58 AM
Orphic,

it seem sthe only mistake is we are miscommunicating.

Im asking if Phoenicians gave us certain letters, i want proof of them being used in there text....im not talking about language phile.

Can you show me this Tell El Yahoodieh please?Thanks dude.

Euklid
06-20-2007, 05:11 AM
Lakonian thanks for the good words man, re guys, i brought this text here, so that we can find its mistakes. And refine it. We can collect all these arguments, refine them---> find the mistakes(like Orphic did) and put them in a nice collection. The bad thing is why are there mistakes anyway? But in any case let's find them.

Orphic_Hymn
06-20-2007, 05:21 AM
Orphic,

it seem sthe only mistake is we are miscommunicating.

Im asking if Phoenicians gave us certain letters, i want proof of them being used in there text....im not talking about language phile.

Can you show me this Tell El Yahoodieh please?Thanks dude.

Well you did speak of "trading holy words" so I guess that mislead me.
Anyway,
I think, you don't see the problem. The problem isn't about my or anyone else proving that the Phoenicians used the symbols (which they adopted from Linear B') prior to us, since the sources are literally endless and any simple search on "Phoenician script" will provide you with loads of sources which support this. The problem is providing proof that we have found not many but a single sentence, hell a single word in this script that pre-dates any of the finds in Phoenician. So the question is: Do we have a single word written in the script in question prior to 1100BC ?


Here's an article (http://www.specialtyinterests.net/grktiles.html) about the Tell El Yahoodieh inscriptions and some objections to the theories on its datation.

akritas_gs
07-17-2007, 06:08 AM
ti egine re magkes, we're stuck or something....
I do find it weird that we have adopted their "alphabet" when we already had something more developed than they did. When I will adopt something i will find something equally good as what i have or better, i wont turn to get something less developed than what i have.

As far as i know they did have a written form of communication but that definitely cannot be described as an alphabet in a modern sense. The Greek alphabet can be said it is the most complete and the birth of the rest;. For whom says that Phoenicians gave us the alphabet , i say BULLOCKS ! But again where the heck are the Phoenicians nowadays anyway ?

Ante geia paides :)

Flipper
07-17-2007, 04:31 PM
I have to say that our modern alphabets form is inspired by the phoenician BUT...

I do not believe the phoenician alphabet is strictly phoenician...I believe the two resulting alphabets evolved by previous scripts/alphabets existing in the eastern mediterranean.

Specifically take a look at the dispilio tablet...It is far older than both alphabets and it has elements used later on. The Linear B is again older that the phoenician alphabet and has symbols like Ψ, Τ, Υ, Α, Θ etc.

The Carian alphabet has Δ, Γ, Χ, Ν, Μ.

It is evident to me that Greek and Phoenician alphabets were just an evolution of scripts preexisting in both civilizations. I'm surprised that many authors never notice those obvious connections. :nono:

Flipper
07-17-2007, 04:32 PM
But again where the heck are the Phoenicians nowadays anyway ?

Lebanon... :)

Euklid
07-17-2007, 05:01 PM
Also, it is more than certain that the Phoenicians were not Semites.

Their Art is crystal-clear testament to this.

And the Semitic Bible herself is crystal clear testament to this as they are categorized as descendants of Ham by the Semites themselves.

They got baptized Semites by Christians and even though science has totally trashed the Christian claims from all sides, for some strange reason, these coincidences(Flippers comparison among many others) still go unnoticed in the general consensus.

There are several examples from the Punics, their total shift to Greek letters after the Roman victory.

The Syro-Phoenician woman, the Linear B, The Mycenean art found in Palestine, their tablets, their naval abilities, their categorization from Egyptian accounts as descendants of Kaphtor(Crete). And hey the Egyptian accounts, go into detail about the Sea people(An Egyptian term itself).

Numerous and countless examples that are more than enough to delete the term semite next to the term Phoenician, and trash the Judeo-Christian lies, of the Greek being taught the alphabet by Semites and for some strange reason the predecessor was much less able than the adopter, something that linguistically is impossible to occur, as all the Alphabets that have spawned from the Greek, none can even be compared with the oligo-synthetic constuctional ability of the Greek. It is impossible for us to have been taught the letters from the Semites, logically impossible. From any given point of view, either Historical, or linguistical or i dont know what.

terastios
07-17-2007, 05:19 PM
I can't believe that this matter really bothers you!
The origin of Greek Alphabet is Phoinician as Slavs are Macedonians!

Spartan
07-17-2007, 06:47 PM
The Syro-Phoenician woman, the Linear B, The Mycenean art found in Palestine, their tablets, their naval abilities, their categorization from Egyptian accounts as descendants of Kaphtor(Crete). And hey the Egyptian accounts, go into detail about the Sea people(An Egyptian term itself).


Are the Philistines(Sea peoples) not a seperate people from the Phoenicians?

Euklid
07-17-2007, 06:52 PM
Nope, the Palestoi-Peleset-Philistines among many other "Sea People" are akin if not brother people to the Phoenicians as Dr Mary lefkowitz and Arthur Evans writes, and as archeology has verified since they have found Phoenician art which is classified as Mycenean Art, it is somewhre in wiki, and aslo somewhere in here as well, but i am off to bed at the moment its 2.30 here.

Spartan
07-17-2007, 06:59 PM
If they are the same and Phoenician art has been classified as Mycenaean then it is safe to assume that the Phoenicians are of Greek descent and thus the Greeks did invent the alphabet!?

I will have to do some research on the topic of the Philistines.

Euklid
07-17-2007, 07:17 PM
From wiki on the Phoenicians:

In terms of archaeology, language, and religion, there is little to set the Phoenicians apart as markedly different from other local cultures of Canaan, because they were Canaanites themselves. However, they are unique in their remarkable seafaring achievements.

On the Philistines, other Canaanites:

The Philistines arrived in the south-west of Canaan in the 12th century B.C., and this marked the end of Egypt's domination over the region. Here too Myc. III C: 1b pottery is found after their arrival.


What is interesting that the the oldest inscription we got from the Phoenicians is dated at the 12th century B.C. as well, by some stretched on the 13th, streched.....and interesting is that they coincide with the Greek Dark Ages, with Biblical refrences of the Old Testament, with the Mari archives and with Egyptian War Accounts that write:

The people of the Islands made a consipracy and came down to invade us, writes a Pharaoh on the same period.

Also a pheonician table writes "we are children of El"

And one of their Gods was Adonis. The same ofc goes for the Jews.

Also i read an interesting theory somewhere, that the supposed 10 lost tribes of Israel, that got lost, were not tribes of Israel, but completely different people, with different art, as the Kingdoms that were established in the area by each tribe individualy before the Reign of King Solomon and their only period of time that the Jews actually ruled a kingdom, for with Salomons demise the 10 tribes took off never to return, and before King Salomon there was never a united Kingdom of Israel, and before Salomon, the archeological discoveries point towards that the other tribes were not at all tribes, but totally different people from the non-aboriginal invading Jews in Canaan.

Dr Mary lefkowitz writes that during the Dark Ages, the Greeks totally controlled the coasts except for Egypt herself, and that their presence was not just one of a passer by, that they actually stayed there and assumed full control of Canaan, and hence what: Historian Gerhard Herm asserts that, because the Phoenicians' legendary sailing abilities are not well attested before the invasions of the Sea Peoples around 1200 BC, that these Sea Peoples would have merged with the local population to produce the Phoenicians, who he says gained these abilities rather suddenly at that time. There is also archaeological evidence that the Philistines, often thought of as related to the Sea Peoples, were culturally linked to Mycenaean Greeks, who were also known to be great sailors even in this period.

There has been too much ignoring the Archeologists and various scientists who have already written shit loads of evidence about the issue at hand, but somehow the Christian lies manage to remain in the general consensus.

akritas_gs
07-21-2007, 07:19 AM
Are the Philistines(Sea peoples) not a seperate people from the Phoenicians?

Long time ago , a friend of my whos studying history in egypt , send me a link where a group of archaeologists discovered or were close to discover ; ( dont remember exactly) that the Phillistine ppl were of greek origin. Hopefully il get in touch with the guy and he will tell em more on the subject.

Bu as i said na leme that Phoenicians gave us the alphabet is like Slavs saying they are Macedonians.

Telospanton il be back when il get more info .

terastios
07-21-2007, 07:44 AM
I can't believe that this matter really bothers you!
The origin of Greek Alphabet is Phoinician as Slavs are Macedonians!


Bu as i said na leme that Phoenicians gave us the alphabet is like Slavs saying they are Macedonians.

.


Εxactlly!

Persey
07-22-2007, 12:59 PM
EDIT: Next time provide a link of your gibberish in the appropriate topic and stop spamming the place.

Orphic_Hymn
07-22-2007, 01:18 PM
The Ancient Macedonians
And Their Language

So I see we have yet another intellectual midget that has no ideas of his own so he resorts to endless copy/pastes..
Next time post a link and do us all a favor by reading some of the existing topics, you'll find that your propaganda has already been trashed.
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/4730-post29.html

I just have to add that I can't get over the stupidity not only of desorting history but also inventing it as seen in the claim of "Thucydides (11, 99)" when the man only wrote 8 books.

Orphic_Hymn
07-22-2007, 01:42 PM
And what about Demosthenes


Are you actually so damn STUPID???
What don't you understand about copy/paste and providing links?
You can debate your point without flooding the entire forum with articles.

Persey
07-22-2007, 01:49 PM
OK

So What about Demosthenes ???

Orphic_Hymn
07-22-2007, 02:33 PM
OK

So What about Demosthenes ???

What about him?
Had you searched through the forums as I told you would would have came accross all your requested answers.
For example:


1. If the Macedonians were Greeks but still called barbarians and nor related to the Greeks, why is then no other Greek tribe called barbarians and nor related to the Greeks in "rhetorical context"? There were many examples when that could have happened, it’s enough to point to the long Peloponesian War, or any of the many constant wars between the Greek states. Yet no Spartan, Athenian, Theban, Epirote, was ever called non-Greek or barbarian during any of these political and war conflicts! Not ONCE!


The answer for the celebration of ignorance noted in bold can be found here:
The word barbarian in the Ancient Greek Linguistics (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/macedonia-articles/1511-word-barbarian-ancient-greek-linguistics.html)
Demosthenes 3rd Philippic (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/anti-greek-macedonia-propaganda/1267-demosthenes-3rd-philippic.html)
Greek tribes being labelled 'Barbarians' (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ancient-macedonian-history/1941-greek-tribes-being-labelled-barbarians.html)

Through these three links you have the answer to:
a) what it meant and when the term "barbarian" was used and
b) examples of other Hellenes being titled "barbarians".


Notes 1-6 are discussed HERE: (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-macedonia-forum/2935-plutarch-2.html)


All quotes below taken from WERNER JAEGER’s Demosthenes

This simply proves that the author of this propaganda trash selectively chooses which quotes suit his sick cause.
The irony is that he also notes Ernst Badian, a Badian who strongly critisizes Jaeger's interpretation of Demosthenes and to be exact, W. Geoffrey Arnott wrote in "The Classical Review, New Ser., Vol. 44, No. 1. (1994),The Classical Review, New Ser., Vol. 44, No. 1. (1994)"

Equally devastating is Ernst Badian's analysis of Jaeger's Demosthenes, based on his Sather lectures and published in two versions (English: Berkeley, 1938; German: Berlin, 1939) which do not always tally with each other. Badian shows that Jaeger's idealistic view of Demosthenes is supported neither by the details of historical fact (in which Jaeger was not interested) nor by accurate interpretation of Demosthenes' speeches.

So he's quoting one source which considers his other as unhistoric.

But what should anyone say about the fool that claims that even if they bore Hellenic blood they shouldn't be considered Hellenes or that Alexander's campaign had nothing to do with Hellenic culture when that is exactly what he spread from Illyria all the way to India.

In the future, please don't waste our time with such trash.

Persey
07-22-2007, 03:09 PM
Macedonia was a Monarchy

The helens had One City, One State

Specific helenic governing Polis

About Demosthenes

In Live here you are

Demosthenes (http://faq.macedonia.org/history/)

[2] [Modern day Greeks would like to dispatch off Demosthenes castigations of Philip II as political rhetoric, and yet Demosthenes was twice appointed to lead the war effort of Athens against Macedonia. He, Demosthenes, said of Philip that Philip was not Greek, nor related to Greeks but comes from Macedonia where a person could not even buy a decent slave. 'Soon after his death the people of Athens paid him fitting honours by errecting his statue in bronze, and by decreeing that the eldest member of his family should be maintained in the prytaneum at the public expense. On the base of his statue was carved his famous inscription: 'If only your strength had been equal, Demosthenes, to your wisdom Never would Greece have been ruled by a Macedonian Ares' [p.216] Plutarch

Orphic_Hymn
07-22-2007, 03:34 PM
Macedonia was a Monarchy
So was Epirus.. so what?

The helens had One City, One State
Fallacy, you'll find HERE (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ancient-macedonian-history/1137-greek-kingdoms.html) that several kingdoms had existed



About Demosthenes

In Live here you are

Demosthenes (http://faq.macedonia.org/history/)

[2] [Modern day Greeks would like to dispatch off Demosthenes castigations of Philip II as political rhetoric, and yet Demosthenes was twice appointed to lead the war effort of Athens against Macedonia. He, Demosthenes, said of Philip that Philip was not Greek, nor related to Greeks but comes from Macedonia where a person could not even buy a decent slave. 'Soon after his death the people of Athens paid him fitting honours by errecting his statue in bronze, and by decreeing that the eldest member of his family should be maintained in the prytaneum at the public expense. On the base of his statue was carved his famous inscription: 'If only your strength had been equal, Demosthenes, to your wisdom Never would Greece have been ruled by a Macedonian Ares' [p.216] Plutarch


When you quote a text it would be best to quote the original.. anyway, this too has also been addressed, now since your breathen daniel didn't give us an answer maybe you will. HERE'S (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-macedonia-forum/2915-cause-death-alexander-known-macedonians-long-time-ago-7.html#post27747) the answers and the questions which I hope you'll address.

Persey
07-22-2007, 04:39 PM
Hm

Demosthenes had spoken this to Filip II

... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" - Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31. The famous words that this Greek orator from Athens used to describe the Macedonian king Philip II, the father of Alexander the Great, prior to Philip’s conquest of Greece.

Macedonia FAQ (http://faq.macedonia.org/history/)

Orphic_Hymn
07-22-2007, 05:17 PM
Hm

Demosthenes had spoken this to Filip II

... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" - Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31. The famous words that this Greek orator from Athens used to describe the Macedonian king Philip II, the father of Alexander the Great, prior to Philip’s conquest of Greece.

Macedonia FAQ (http://faq.macedonia.org/history/)

Firstly its Philippos (Φιλιππος) in english the Hellenic F is always written with "ph".

Secondly I can't help myself so I must ask, do you have some form of reading disability or are you simply stupid?

It must be one of the two, since there's no other way to explain your inability to comprehend that this was already addressed above.
So if you don't have anything else to say and will simply resort to parroting the same thing over and over, while intentionally ignoring the fact that you've received your responce.. Don't address anything towards me any more.

Thanks.

Euklid
07-22-2007, 05:18 PM
I kindly ask all these material to be moved on a separate thread.

This thread might not be the epitome of intercourse, however it is a topic that holds value, and should not be derailed by specific trolls and allow them to flood the place even in topics that share no relevance with the Wahhabi SlavoMaco's. Please delete or move.

Persey
07-22-2007, 05:24 PM
Whose alphabet

Macedonian or Greek

From Old Macedonian Alphabet there are remains of only 108 Glosses

That clearly show that The language of the Ancient Macedonians was different from the greek

Ancient Macedonian Language - a distinct Indo-European language (http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/shea2.html)

Orphic_Hymn
07-22-2007, 05:33 PM
Whose alphabet

Macedonian or Greek

From Old Macedonian Alphabet there are remains of only 108 Glosses

That clearly show that The language of the Ancient Macedonians was different from the greek

Ancient Macedonian Language - a distinct Indo-European language (http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/shea2.html)

Actually it clearly shows that you're totally ignorant and a victim of propaganda.
Firstly Hesychius didn't record an alphabet you intellectually challenged fool, its a Lexicon, an alphabet consists of those scribbles which you use to represent speech on a paper..etc

The words Hesychius noted were those which he considered unusual and of mysterious origin. So in short, you and the fools that support your twisted beliefs don't have a case simply because out of some 50.000 entries in his entire work only 100 are attributed to the Makednoi, hence he fully understood their Hellenic dialectic form and these are simply product of intermixing with Thracians, Illyrians, Paeonians..etc.
Do the math and you'll find that they constitute a 0.00 % of his entire work and thus under no condition anything that would support the separate language stupidity that you're celebrating.

Persey
07-22-2007, 05:53 PM
How some words like: bara, gazi, se vika, turne, vadi, etc

Are still used in modern Macedonian Language

And are used among Hunzi and Kalashi people in Afghanistan !!!

Search on Google d-r Ilija Casule from Sydney University !!!

Orphic_Hymn
07-22-2007, 06:10 PM
How some words like: bara, gazi, se vika, turne, vadi, etc

Are still used in modern Macedonian Language
And who said that anything remotely close to these are recorded by Hesychius?

And are used among Hunzi and Kalashi people in Afghanistan !!!

Search on Google d-r Ilija Casule from Sydney University !!!
You should search the true origins of the Kalash. When you do you'll find that dear ol' Ilija Casule is simply trashing your theory instead of building it. The Kalash as Lluis Quintana has proven totally lack local mtDNA and thus CAN NOT be the descendants of the women that Alexander's soldiers intermixed with. To the contrary their mtDNA points to a W. Eurasian origin, now my little brainwashed friend.. guess who else came from that region and settled in the Balkans.:rolleyes:

Persey
07-22-2007, 06:19 PM
So why are you building a greek complex near the Kalashi people !!!

d-r Ilija Casule refers to the words: bara, gazi, se vika, turne, vadi, etc

As words that are spoken among the Kalashi and Hunzi people !!!

Words that are used in Modern Macedonian Language !!!

Orphic_Hymn
07-22-2007, 06:23 PM
So why are you building a greek complex near the Kalashi people !!!
Greek complex what the fuck is this.. some kind of opposite to your inferiority complex?
If you can't handle facts that isn't my problem.


d-r Ilija Casule refers to the words: bara, gazi, se vika, turne, vadi, etc

As words that are spoken among the Kalashi and Hunzi people !!!

Words that are used in Modern Macedonian Language !!!

Look fool if you can't express yourself correctly then say it, I can understand that english isn't your mother tongue but do NOT twist your words once you lack answers.
As a responce to my teaching you about Hesychius' Lexicon you said:

How some words like: bara, gazi, se vika, turne, vadi, etc
Are still used in modern Macedonian Language

This was a clear attempt to claim that some of the 100 words he recorded are used in your Slavic grunt. So either put up or you know the drill.

Persey
07-22-2007, 06:39 PM
You are building a greek cultural centre near the Kalashi people !!!

Why, if they aren't Macedonians, or Greeks as you say

Why arent you building a center near the Hunzi people, like us !!!

The words: bara, gazi, se vika, turne, vadi, etc

Are used in Modern Macedonian Language

And in the language of the Hunzi and Kalashi people

What is that telling to you ???

That is a fact !!!

And you can't do anything about that !!!

In what language is the middle text of the Rosseta Stone ???

Orphic_Hymn
07-22-2007, 06:52 PM
You are building a greek cultural centre near the Kalashi people !!!

Why, if they aren't Macedonians, or Greeks as you say

Why arent you building a center near the Hunzi people, like us !!!
Child we have cultural centers from S.Africa to Argentina and from Sweden to China.. its called Hellenism an ideal that your kind simply can not comprehend. But you fail to understand that we have no need to brainwash these people, you are the ones that desparately strive to prove connections to them, obviously because you ignore their true origins and by doing so attempt to disassociate yourselves from your true breathen.


The words: bara, gazi, se vika, turne, vadi, etc

Are used in Modern Macedonian Language

And in the language of the Hunzi and Kalashi people

What is that telling to you ???

That is a fact !!!

And you can't do anything about that !!!
Honestly I couldn't care less, the whole problem is that you have no idea where W. Eurasia is otherwise you wouldn't be making a fool out of yourself.

In what language is the middle text of the Rosseta Stone ???

Don't tell me.... Slavic :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Orphic_Hymn
07-22-2007, 07:03 PM
Search on Google d-r Ilija Casule from Sydney University !!!

Took your advice and guess what I found..

The etymologies show consistent and regular phonetic
correspondences and highly specific semantic concordance with the ancient
Balkan languages (most notably Phrygian and Thracian) and with
Balto-Slavic.

Now since Phrygian and Thracian raise a huge problem for the dear Prof. we can conclude that his theory is BS.. but even so, seems like your mentors forgot to tell you about BALTO-SLAVIC which actually supports everything I told you above.

Spartan
07-22-2007, 10:59 PM
OH I must disagree with you about the Kalash people. The studies show that there is some mtDNA attributed to the Greeks. What was not tested was the Y-Chromosome! The Y-chromosome would have been the evidence of support for the Greek descent.

PERSEY,
Can you tell us what is the primary religion the Kalash worship? Also how many of their words are Greek.

Orphic_Hymn
07-23-2007, 07:07 AM
Haven't heard of that paper the only one related to mtDNA I've seen is that of Luis Quintana which you can find HERE (http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40813/40813.html), would like to see it though, so if you have a link please do post it.

Spartan
07-23-2007, 04:03 PM
Here is one study that does not dismiss a Greek contribution. It seems that the Pathan are the closest to the Greeks than the Burusho and Kalash.

European Journal of Human Genetics - Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html)

Orphic_Hymn
07-23-2007, 04:24 PM
As far as I remember (didn't go through it again) this speaks of the Pathans and not the Kalash but even so, lack of mtDNA which would connect them to the region is a huge problem, because then we're talking about population movements and not native women intermixing with Hellenic soldiers.

Spartan
07-24-2007, 01:53 AM
"Clade E lineages were more frequent in the Greeks (21%) as compared to Pakistan (4%). The majority of haplogroup E chromosomes belonged to clade E3b and all Greek and Pakistani samples were resolved into the branches E3b1 (M78) and E3b3 (M123). Among the three Pakistani populations claiming Greek descent, this clade was observed only in the Pathans. The Pathan samples belonged to clade E3b1 that constituted 17% of the Greek samples.

A median-joining network of clade E Y chromosomes was constructed in order to examine the genetic relationship between these Greek and Pathan samples. A duplication of 10 and 13 repeat units was observed in the clade-E-derived Y chromosomes for the trinucleotide repeat DYS425 and this locus was, therefore, excluded from the network. The most striking feature of this network was the sharing of haplotypes between the Pathan and Greek samples (Figure 4). One Pathan individual shared the same Y-STR haplotype with three Greek individuals, and the other Pathan sample was separated from this cluster by a single mutation at the DYS436 locus. This demonstrates a very close relationship between the Pathan and Greek E lineages, but how surprising is this?"

"Worldwide data for the 16-element haplotype are not available, but a subset of nine of the STRs are included in by the Y-STR Haplotype Reference Database (YHRD)23 and were used to search this. The haplotype DYS19=13; 389I=13; 389II=30; 390=24; 391=10; 392=11; 393=13; 438=10; 439=12 was found in 53 individuals in a worldwide population sample of 7897 haplotypes and was highly specific for the Balkans (Figure 5). The contour map shows a major concentration around Macedonia and Greece, with a low scattering in other European countries, Tunisia, West Africa and the Pathans. This gives a strong indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y chromosomes."

Orphic_Hymn
07-24-2007, 05:46 AM
. This gives a strong indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y chromosomes."

Nai bre.. Pathans not Kalash, no objection to that.
But if you look above you'll see that I mentioned the problem in Kalash not bearing local mtDNA but W.Eurasian which indicates a foreign origin of the Kalash maternal linage. So if their maternal linage is W.Eurasian and not local, there's a huge problem when trying to connect them to the locals with which the Hellenic troops intermixed.
dhl. I wasn't talking about Pathans.

Euklid
10-14-2007, 06:23 AM
Herodotus-The Histories-On Cadmus (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book=5:chapter =59:section=1)

LIX. I have myself seen Cadmean writing in the temple of Ismenian Apollo at Thebes of Boeotia engraved on certain tripods and for the most part looking like Ionian letters. On one of the tripods there is this inscription:

Amphitryon dedicated me from the spoils of1 Teleboae.
This would date from about the time of Laius the son of Labdacus, grandson of Polydorus and great-grandson of Cadmus.

Ellinikon Original text (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0125:book=5:chapter =59:section=1):

eidon de kai autos Kadmêia grammata...
.
.
..ta polla homoia eonta toisi Iônikoisi

The plenty eonta(of them [Cadmeian] [letters] are) Homoia(identical) to the Ionian [letters]