Arvanites

[Orphic_Hymn]

cultural polyphony and identity formation:
negotiating tradition in Attica
DlMlTRA GEFOU-MADIANOU-Panteion University p.420

Accounts by travelers of the 18th and early 19th century note their presence among other groups in the area (Pouqueville 1820:20). So, too, in works by Greek writers of the mid-1 9th century, Arvanitic-speaking groups were described as one among many that made up the Greek nation-state (see, for example, Byzantios 1953 [I8361).
Many of these groups identified with the Greek nationalists and actively participated in the 1820s war of independence not as separate groups, but as Greeks, clearly distinguishing themselves from the non-Orthodox (Muslim) Albanian populations. Although they could communicate with the Ottoman Turkish-Albanians who were fighting against the Greeks (Skopetea 1988:188-189), they were not identified nor did they identify themselves as Albanians, calling themselves "Arvanites" instead.



Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece
Laurie Kain Hart
American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1. (Feb., 1999), p 211


But Arvanitika speakers have it both ways and also appear as true Hellenes, authentic descendents of the ancients, preserved by westerly isolation from the corruption of the "Anatolian Byzantine" (Hart 1 993).



Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece
Laurie Kain Hart
American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1. (Feb., 1999),p.214

A Greek encyclopedia published in 1930 provides some interesting details about the identity of the Liapides. They are described as Muslim inhabitants of Liapouria (the southwest section of Albania between the Boiousis and Kalamas Rivers). They are, in all probability, the same people who moved in the 14th and 15th centuries into mainland Greece as well as Hydra, Spetses, and other islands. They are said to be warriors, builders (a traditional occupation of southern Albanians and Arvanites until today), and artisans, as well as brigands and pirates. They do not employ the term Shkiptar (the dominant Albanian language term for Albanians) but retain their ethnic names and the term Arvanites. They wear the fustanella (kilt) by contrast to the Northern Albanians who "dress like Slavs" (Engkiklopedhiko Lexiko 1930:672).


The Evolution of Settlement in the Southern Argolid, Greece: An Economic
Explanation
Curtis N. Runnels; Tjeerd H. van Andel
Hesperia, Vol. 56, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1987), p. 321

The population of the Southern Argolid was augmented by an
influx of Albanian-speaking settlers (perhaps taking advantage of depopulations following the Black Death?) in the 14th-15th centuries, and the Arvanites, as they are called, are still a dominant element of the population.



Reviewed Work(s):
On Dialect: Social and Geographical Perspectives by Peter Trudgill
Malcah Yaeger-Dror
Language, Vol. 62, No. 4. (Dec., 1986), p920


Chap. 7, 'Language contact, language shift, and identity: Why Arvanites are not Albanians' (127-40), co-authored with George Tzavaras, analyses the attitudes of Arvanitika speakers toward the way they speak, on the basis of responses to a questionnaire. Responses to questionnaires which focus on language attitudes are, of course, as vulnerable to criticism as other self-report data (Bourhis 1984); but T&T manage to learn as much as one dares from the questions which they have posed.




Reviewed Work(s):
Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian Cultural Identity Since 1912
by Peter Mackridge; Eleni Yannakakis
Laurie Kain Hart
American Ethnologist, Vol. 25, No. 3. (Aug., 1998), p. 538

Similarly the case of the Arvanites (Albanian-speaking Greeks), as well as the very difierent situation oi recent Albanian immigrants, merits attention as one moves west toward Epiros and the Albanian border.

[Hermes]

Again...............ok..
A Greek encyclopedia published in 1930 provides some interesting details about the identity of the Liapides. They are described as Muslim inhabitants of Liapouria (the southwest section of Albania between the Boiousis and Kalamas Rivers). They are, in all probability, the same people who moved in the 14th and 15th centuries into mainland Greece as well as Hydra, Spetses, and other islands. They are said to be warriors, builders (a traditional occupation of southern Albanians and Arvanites until today), and artisans, as well as brigands and pirates. They do not employ the term Shkiptar (the dominant Albanian language term for Albanians) but retain their ethnic names and the term Arvanites. They wear the fustanella (kilt) by contrast to the Northern Albanians who "dress like Slavs" (Engkiklopedhiko Lexiko 1930:672).

The word shqipetari entered to late in albanian dictionary (to name thereselves) That time Arvanites has been in Greece from about 2-3 centuries. Those time they called them selves Arber - from Arberia- B-V, R-N.
How could they be named shqipetari.

Inhabitants of Laberia (southwest Albania) are "muslims" , but they still rembember their last christian ancestors.If u go there , in the villages , u will find books, about the tribes there , and most of them had wrote about the last christian and their christian surnames. sorry, no greeks, no one speak about that.No other argument to relate them. In history they are wellknown as brigantes and other and other too. ( Have to remember u that in the 15-16 century §Himara was said had 50 villages, and many of them are in Laberia today, With Himara are understood only 7 villages)No one claim to be greek there, have u ever heard? Also the inhabitants of Pilur, Kudhes, Vuno, Qeparo(dont remember other 2) have the strong idea they are not greeks, in Leonidha army there was a betrayer too.

About foustanella, its still weared by Lab people, and north is another question.
>

[Orphic_Hymn]

Hermes

Long time no see..

OK, since you quoted it, what didn't you understand from the phrase:
a traditional occupation of southern Albanians and Arvanites until today ?

I've heard a load of theories about the Liapides among them some which try to connect them to the "Lapithae", for example, Henry Skene mentions names and pronounciation of "delta" (dh) which he suggests are indication of this relation but I don't really give it much credit.

But thats not the point, I really don't care who the Liapides may or may not have been, I presented this quote because I see a reference to two separate people, its simple logic to conclude that if otherwise, the author would have simply stated "Albanians" for there would be absolutely no reason to make any distinction between the two.

Now while there is a topic about the foustanella, I'll just say that the fact that its worn in the South indicates the Byzantine and Latin influence (south-north) as also seen in the language.

[Hermes]

i understand Orphic.
First u cant make a conclusion only by a autor. All situation are taken as a complex to find the trueth. Also a saying of an author can be irilevant or cant be true.

Anyway, as u know, Arvanites went too early in Greece.albania than was ocupied and changed a lot. Religion a strong factor too). So someone , almost at those times could easily refer to them to 2 diferent genesis.

If they were Greeks, they couldnt be called arvanites , but just emigrants.
But all papers tell the opozite.

[olvios]

emigrants??!!

[terastios]

Arvanites (Greek: Αρβανίτες) are a population group in Greece whose linguistic heritage is Arvanitic, a form of Albanian. Arvanites are predominantly Greek Orthodox Christians and identify themselves ethnically and nationally as Greeks. They used to be the predominant population element in several regions in the south of Greece up to the 19th century. Today, their language is under danger of extinction due to language shift towards Greek and due to large-scale migrations into the cities.



Foreign sources sometimes refer to Arvanites as Albanians, as did some older Greek authors. Today, however, Arvanites in Greece typically object to being associated with the Albanian nation or being called an "ethnic minority", since they have a strong feeling of being ethnically Greek .For the same reason, many also object to the designation of their language as a dialect of Albanian, preferring instead to regard it as a separate language.
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/911/arvanitesil3.png
Arvanites: From left to right: Athanasios Miaoulis (1815 - 1867), Antonios Kriezis (1796 - 1865), Pavlos Kountouriotis (1855 - 1935) and Theodoros Pangalos (1878 - 1952).

[Orphic_Hymn]

i understand Orphic.
First u cant make a conclusion only by a autor. All situation are taken as a complex to find the trueth. Also a saying of an author can be irilevant or cant be true.

Anyway, as u know, Arvanites went too early in Greece.albania than was ocupied and changed a lot. Religion a strong factor too). So someone , almost at those times could easily refer to them to 2 diferent genesis.

If they were Greeks, they couldnt be called arvanites , but just emigrants.
But all papers tell the opozite.

We've done the same thing before in several topics, yet you make me repeat myself over and over again simply because you can NOT provide any form of logical explanation.

The very first account of Albanians is that of Michael Attaleiates, who in 1080 in his "Histories" mentions both Albanians (9.11, 18.19) and Arvanites (297.21). So the 1 million $ question that you have never answered is , WHY does he refer to them as separate people ???

[terastios]

Ι dont understand why r u 2 fighting about?
Shqiperia means "the land of the eagles"
Shqipetari is the "son of the eagleland".
They wanted (and did) to name their land like this...so what?
Its like we say "leventogenna Kriti" e kai?

[Ehetlaios]

The very first account of Albanians is that of Michael Attaleiates

You probably mean in the Balkans... Arrian also mentions Albanians from the region of Azerbaijan who fought in the persian army in the battle of Gaugamela.

[Teukros]

Haven't actually been absorbed by the Greek population?A research back in the 70 showed there weren't different by the rest of Greeks and certainly distinc from albanians

[gmellos]

the reason why they are brought up is because Albanian nationalist will try to use them as a way to lay claim to land in Hellas!

[TirAlb]

Hi to all!I just readed some topics and i can say that this forum is really amazing!

Haven't actually been absorbed by the Greek population?A research back in the 70 showed there weren't different by the rest of Greeks and certainly distinc from albanians

Im replying to you just because yours is one of the latest posts!

This Effort to portray the Arvanites as Greeks seems to me too much forced and too similar to the Western/Bulgarians wanabee Macedonians claims.I think that in your post you reply to yourself...you are openly saying that they were ABSORBED.
However you can't absorbe their past!Come one don't see every thing with the present point of wiev,maybe Albanians and Greeks weren't always enemies?!maybe sometimes they fought side by side?!

the reason why they are brought up is because Albanian nationalist will try to use them as a way to lay claim to land in Hellas!

Well i don't think so,the Arvanitik issue has nothing to do with territorial claims.Its much more and historical problem,the Cam problem on the contrary yes!But it is a different topic!

[Reaper]

I think you believe maybe arvanites did not mix with greeks for the last 500 years, and lost their language, culture ect? Is that true? Do you actually believe there are still groups in greece claiming to be arvanites?

[TirAlb]

I think you believe maybe arvanites did not mix with greeks for the last 500 years, and lost their language, culture ect? Is that true?

No I don’t believe this?But I think that the lose of their language is a quite recent thing,mostly due to the rise of the nacionalism in Greece and the consequent politics!Probably the conflict here is caused from a different conception of “nationality” that the our two nation have.For us a common language and common rots are more than enough to claim Arvanites as Albanians,instead for you religion and how the immediate interested claim themselves are as much important.
As for the religion i can’t even comment it because when the it is mixed with things as nationality or politics in my opinion it is not a religion any more,but just a politic instrument and not one of the cleanest indeed.About the second,I can claim all day long that I am a French or a German but these is not enough to make me such.We have in the balcans a current example,the fyroms claiming themselves as Macedonians.So like the Bulgar/Macedonian claim is due to the fyrom politics and propaganda,also the Arvanites/Greek claim is due to the Greek politcs and propaganda.


Do you actually believe there are still groups in greece claiming to be arvanites?

As I already said the arvanite issue is an historical problem,and their present situation and claims are not that important.However im sure that individuals still exists,an contemporaneous one was Aristidh Kola/Kolias for example.

[Orphic_Hymn]

also the Arvanites/Greek claim is due to the Greek politcs and propaganda.
The major difference here is that its not the Hellenic government that notes their distinctions from the Albanians but they they do it themselves just as they have throughtout their history.



However im sure that individuals still exists,an contemporaneous one was Aristidh Kola/Kolias for example.
People noting their Arvanitic origins indeed exist but not a single one of them has attempted to present it as something non-related to the Hellenic nor strictly Albanian. They are nothing but another example of those who note their lets say, Vlach or Tsakonian backgrounds.
As for your reference of Kollias (note that he never was a historian nor considered as one), besides the several question which his theories raise, he considers the link far more ancient than their movements during 1200-1450AD, since he tried to relate them to a Pelasgic branch.

[Tsontos]

TirAlb, when exactly in your opinion did Arvanites "forget" they were Albanian?

[TirAlb]

The major difference here is that its not the Hellenic government that notes their distinctions from the Albanians but they they do it themselves just as they have throughtout their history.


Ok the greek government(and church also) has nothing to do with this,do you really,really... believe so?
However I absolve them for “mental incapacity�,actually,they was much more famouse for they fighting skills.What can I say: “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing�.:)


People noting their Arvanitic origins indeed exist but not a single one of them has attempted to present it as something non-related to the Hellenic nor strictly Albanian. They are nothing but another example of those who note their lets say, Vlach or Tsakonian backgrounds.
As for your reference of Kollias (note that he never was a historian nor considered as one), besides the several question which his theories raise, he considers the link far more ancient than their movements during 1200-1450AD, since he tried to relate them to a Pelasgic branch.

Ok then,they are unstrictly Albanian!
He relates their language with the pelasgic language,as an old form of Albanian,the Arvanitik is ofcourse much closer to the ancient Pelasgic than the Albanian itself.However did I mentioned that he was an historian? Of course not,so I don’t understand why you come out with this statement.

[TirAlb]

TirAlb, when exactly in your opinion did Arvanites "forget" they were Albanian?

It was a constant process,that probably was started from the greek church during the ottoman period.But it became important just before and after the formation of the Greek state.

[Reaper]

There are those who might be aware that 12 generations ago there was an arvinites in their family, but they are rare. Because they wanted to be completely Greek, not the other way round. Peoples who tried to keep some history in Greece ie wanted to, were able to, see the jews of Greece, pontians ect. There was no attempt to assimilate avanites, they wanted to become greek, so they married greek, that was the end. And that was a long time ago. Other peoples to do that were slavs in Greece to name one other group.

It is actually Albanian nationalism that are the reason we talk about it here, no other reason. I know there are Greeks mixed with Albanians in the South of Albania, do I think they are greek? I think they are whatever they want to be.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Ok the greek government(and church also) has nothing to do with this,do you really,really... believe so?
However I absolve them for “mental incapacity”,actually,they was much more famouse for they fighting skills.What can I say: “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing”.:)

Their beliefs obviously derive from cultural or even ethnic differences which they knew of and we are searching for. What I mean is that in a multi-ethnic empire like that of Byzantium where ethnic origins weren't the first issue of interest, what makes us seek for their ethnic connections or lack of them, is the clear distinction between them. IF for example, the Arvanites were nothing more than Albanians (since we know beyond doubt that they were indeed speakers of the lang.), the question that immediately appears is why would historians of the time make a distinction and refer to the first as Arbanites and the later as Illyrians, when it would be simple logic to define them as the same?

While I don't totally understand where you're going with that "mental incapacity" statement, the Arvanitic and Albanian populations that were brought into Hellas by various Dukes ..etc weren't thought of as a fighting force but as a labor force, hence why we know of regions in Hellas that were nothing but fields maintained by Albanians and today still bear their name, take Spata in Athens as an example.





Ok then,they are unstrictly Albanian!
He relates their language with the pelasgic language,as an old form of Albanian,the Arvanitik is ofcourse much closer to the ancient Pelasgic than the Albanian itself.However did I mentioned that he was an historian? Of course not,so I don’t understand why you come out with this statement.
Yes he did indeed try to make some absurd linguistic connections based on assumptions since he also totally rejects the IE liguistic theory which is far from disproved without providing an ounce of evidence. You can find some examples in a different thread HERE (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/linguistics-forum/3006-kollias.html).
The reason I mentioned he wasn't a historian nor anything remotely close to one, is because I've noticed that his theories are well circulated among Albanians and the majority of you tend to accept it hands down and support it passionately, without giving it a second thought. Lets say that I was just trying to avoid hearing that "we" killed him for what he had written, when he actually died of cancer.

[Tsontos]

It was a constant process,that probably was started from the greek church during the ottoman period.But it became important just before and after the formation of the Greek state.

I dont understand. Ethnic identity was only a nascent, barely significant factor amongst Balkan peoples with the onset of Ottoman rule. You're suggesting that the Orthodox Church and Patriarch in Constantinople, under the Ottomans, cared about instilling an ethnically Greek identity among Albanian Christians. And then this process was so far advanced that by the time of the 1820s the Arvanites were some of the most fanatic exponents of Greek nationalism and enlightenment, which was often anti-clerical at the same time??:wacko:

You do realise perhaps the biggest obstacle to Greek independence was the unwillingness of the church to risk its position and give in to nationalist, french revolutionary ideologies??

[TirAlb]

Orphic wrote:
Their beliefs obviously derive from cultural or even ethnic differences which they knew of and we are searching for. What I mean is that in a multi-ethnic empire like that of Byzantium where ethnic origins weren't the first issue of interest, what makes us seek for their ethnic connections or lack of them, is the clear distinction between them. IF for example, the Arvanites were nothing more than Albanians (since we know beyond doubt that they were indeed speakers of the lang.), the question that immediately appears is why would historians of the time make a distinction and refer to the first as Arbanites and the later as Illyrians, when it would be simple logic to define them as the same?

I heave never heard that!i know that south slavs were called Illyrians(even napoleon quotes them as such),Albanians-epirotes,western/Bulgarians-macedonians and so on,it was just an habbit they had to call the population of those areas with the name of the ancient ones.
The medieval name of the Albanians was,Arber,and the consequent forms are:Arvanites,Arnaut,Arbanitas,Arberesh,Albaniansâ €¦.
We have an perfect example:The Arbereshs in Sicily(in Piana degli Albanesi,wrongly named until the beginning of the last century,Piana degli Greci) who migrated mostly from the pelopones area(morea).They are Arvanites that lived in Italy in the past 500 years and more,and they still preserve their Albanian identity,and their diaspora had an important role in the the rebirth of the Albanian nationalism.Why?In italy nobody forced them to change their identity.

[TirAlb]

There are those who might be aware that 12 generations ago there was an arvinites in their family, but they are rare. Because they wanted to be completely Greek, not the other way round. Peoples who tried to keep some history in Greece ie wanted to, were able to, see the jews of Greece, pontians ect. There was no attempt to assimilate avanites, they wanted to become greek, so they married greek, that was the end. And that was a long time ago. Other peoples to do that were slavs in Greece to name one other group.

It is actually Albanian nationalism that are the reason we talk about it here, no other reason. I know there are Greeks mixed with Albanians in the South of Albania, do I think they are greek? I think they are whatever they want to be.

I don’t think sow,and as i already said this is one of the points were the difference between the parts stays!Im going to repeat my self,Arvanites existed during the Greek revolution,and gave their precious contribute(this is important for me)they don’t exist by this time(I don’t care).The Turkish(I have lack of knowledge about Pontiacs),Jew, and Albanian are three different problems solved in mostly three different ways,the turkish with exchange of the population,the second is not directly related to the topic,even why an interesant one,and the third with assimilation politics (orthodox albanians,arvanites included),and mass deportation(muslim albanians).
Look i think that the albanian nationalism was mostly feeded from the greek (idem serb) actions and nationalism.Ofcourse there are greeks in Albania not that much as the Greek biased fonts propably told you but this minority definitely exists,it is made of about 50’000 people.They were always respected,they had their schools during communism,and in the present times we have universities in greek.or even a greek minister.We also had common marriages,and let solve it in a “old” way:Albanian father+Greek mother=Albanian;Greek father+Albanian mother=Albanian).
Our real problem are the ones that declare themselves as Greeks just for some money,but its not a big deal however,because you are taking just the rotten part of our society.

[TirAlb]

I dont understand. Ethnic identity was only a nascent, barely significant factor amongst Balkan peoples with the onset of Ottoman rule. You're suggesting that the Orthodox Church and Patriarch in Constantinople, under the Ottomans, cared about instilling an ethnically Greek identity among Albanian Christians. And then this process was so far advanced that by the time of the 1820s the Arvanites were some of the most fanatic exponents of Greek nationalism and enlightenment, which was often anti-clerical at the same time??:wacko:

You do realise perhaps the biggest obstacle to Greek independence was the unwillingness of the church to risk its position and give in to nationalist, french revolutionary ideologies??

From the accuracy of the description of my point of view,i can guess that you know that it is not only mine but an wellknown theory.Yes im saying that the Orthodox Church as the only non turk authority in the region instilled the greek identity among Albanians.
Are you saying that the greek revolution was an anticlerical one?No way,in my opinion it was some kind of holy war against the infedels(muslims),if there was really any anti-clerical movement inside,it can be,but the final result shows us how insignificant it was.

[Tsontos]

Most of the members of the Philiki Etairia which organised the 1821 revolt were freemasons ie. particularly anti-clerical. All the protagonists including Kolokotronis spoke about the clergy as being by far the biggest obstacle to achieving independence. Lastly the Patriach Gregorius condemned the revolution upon its outbreakand all subsequent patriarchs did the same! The church manifestly opposed independence.


It wasnt until decades after independence that the church began to align its interests completely with the Greek national cause. The church was not concerned with national/ ethnic identity. This is why Im extremely doubtful that the church (patriarch) had any interest in telling a bunch of albanians that they were actually Greeks at anytime during Ottoman yoke!

[Truth Bearer]

TirAlb can u tell us pls are u a Muslim,Orthodox or Catholic Albanian?

[TirAlb]

TirAlb can u tell us pls are u a Muslim,Orthodox or Catholic Albanian?

Is that important?...Catholic!

[Orphic_Hymn]

Orphic wrote:


I heave never heard that!i know that south slavs were called Illyrians(even napoleon quotes them as such),Albanians-epirotes,western/Bulgarians-macedonians and so on,it was just an habbit they had to call the population of those areas with the name of the ancient ones.
The medieval name of the Albanians was,Arber,and the consequent forms are:Arvanites,Arnaut,Arbanitas,Arberesh,Albanians… .
We have an perfect example:The Arbereshs in Sicily(in Piana degli Albanesi,wrongly named until the beginning of the last century,Piana degli Greci) who migrated mostly from the pelopones area(morea).They are Arvanites that lived in Italy in the past 500 years and more,and they still preserve their Albanian identity,and their diaspora had an important role in the the rebirth of the Albanian nationalism.Why?In italy nobody forced them to change their identity.

Well you can find a couple of quotes in the first page of this topic + the million $ question in post 7 (which can also be found here (http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:uuy7xIKUZ5gJ:www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1990Anonymi.pdf+duke+of+epirus+site:elsie.de&hl=el&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=gr) in an article written by the authority of "Albanology", Dr. Robert Elsie, who states:

In his ‘History’ written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium

but how could S.Slavs be titled Illyrians when we know of the Byzantine administative measure of the Sklavinae which obviously gained its name from these S.Slavs and how they were known to the very Byzantines that formed them ?
(I think you might be thinking about later Slavic propaganda and the little issue that rose between Albanians and Slavs on who had the right to claim descendance)

As for the S.Italian Albanians, how do they apply as an example which would prove that the Arvanites and Albanians are one and the same and how does it answer my question of the reason that certain Byzantine authors (which means up to 1400AD and not during the Napolean era which is 1800AD) indicated this distinction?

But what is this forced to change identity bs? you seem to neglect is that even if there was some relation (I believe a mixed ancestry) there was no force, if the connection was denounced it was done willingly, simply because at the time, Albanian was nothing more than a synonym to Ottoman lackey, converts that fullfilled every desire of the oppressor and thus loathed. Unlike the Arvanites, those that define themselves as Albanians in Italy never met neither the Ottomans, nor their "enforcers".

[Orphic_Hymn]

Im going to repeat my self,Arvanites existed during the Greek revolution,and gave their precious contribute(this is important for me)they don’t exist by this time(I don’t care).
Indeed the Arvanites have contributed to the country greatly, the questions here, since the issue of our independance does interest you is who were they fignting against, why and how they perceived them ?


The Turkish(I have lack of knowledge about Pontiacs),Jew, and Albanian are three different problems solved in mostly three different ways,the turkish with exchange of the population,the second is not directly related to the topic,even why an interesant one,and the third with assimilation politics (orthodox albanians,arvanites included),and mass deportation(muslim albanians).
Problems?
Anyway the first was not a problem during the early years of the country's formation, the lackeys were already dealt with, the remaining populations were exchanged due to the emergence of hostilities between the countries.

The second never were an issue and proof of this fact are the actions during WW2 during which their 'extermination' would have been child's-play, but to the contrary they were protected.

As for the third, well thats the result of collaborating with the enemy.. Personally I feel absolutely nothing more than disgust for those that allowed them to flee.



They were always respected,they had their schools during communism,and in the present times we have universities in greek.or even a greek minister
Sorry but you're totally wrong on this one.. Beginning with your King Zog and escalated in 1933-34 and including the events during Hoxha's rule during which we saw schools closed down, Hellenic lang. books burnt, not to neglect religious temples burnt to the ground so he could implement the commie desire of atheism are far too well recorded to even suggest that they were respected?

Our real problem are the ones that declare themselves as Greeks just for some money,but its not a big deal however,because you are taking just the rotten part of our society.

If this is indeed an issue, well it actually says volumes about those that perform it and should worry us more than it does you. But then again, why should it be a problem for you? I mean you are simply getting rid of individuals that would sell out who they are for a $.. I for one would be more than happy to see such individuals out of my country and willingly denounce the name they obviously are not worthy of bearing.

[Truth Bearer]

Is that important?...Catholic!


Tell me TirAlb does that make you a Gheg??

[Truth Bearer]

Most of the members of the Philiki Etairia which organised the 1821 revolt were freemasons ie. particularly anti-clerical. All the protagonists including Kolokotronis spoke about the clergy as being by far the biggest obstacle to achieving independence. Lastly the Patriach Gregorius condemned the revolution upon its outbreakand all subsequent patriarchs did the same! The church manifestly opposed independence.


It wasnt until decades after independence that the church began to align its interests completely with the Greek national cause. The church was not concerned with national/ ethnic identity. This is why Im extremely doubtful that the church (patriarch) had any interest in telling a bunch of albanians that they were actually Greeks at anytime during Ottoman yoke!


Not necesserely Bulgarslayer the rayiades did promote a form of Greekness(not Hellenism as such) during the Ottoman period for their own self interest though so as to collect more tax from the Greek concious christians.....

[Tsontos]

Not necesserely Bulgarslayer the rayiades did promote a form of Greekness(not Hellenism as such) during the Ottoman period for their own self interest though so as to collect more tax from the Greek concious christians.....

According to TirAlb, the Arvanites were Orthodox Albanians who were convinced of a Greek ethnic conciousness by the Orthodox Church.

The problem is that all rayah of the Orthodox miliyet (and of the Catholic miliyet for that matter) were taxed equally and the patriarch had jurisdiction over all of them. Once again the Church had no interest or involvement in ethnic as opposed to religious conciousness.

[Draco]

According to TirAlb, the Arvanites were Orthodox Albanians who were convinced of a Greek ethnic conciousness by the Orthodox Church.
What I would like to know how can one expect an Albanian ethnic consciousness to be preserved bearing in mind that communications then were not as sophisticated as they are now and that people were more likely to identify with their place of birth and the identity of most people living there. The integration of Arvanites was due to prolonged mixed marriages and co-exisence of the Arvanite minority within the Greek majority, the Orthodox church played a minimal role contrary to the views expressed by whoever wrote this (http://www.nakratzas.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=63&Itemid=78).
Στην Ελλάδα επειδή η Ορθόδοξη Εκκλησία είναι ο συνδετικός κρίκος μεταξύ των διαφόρων φυλών που την κατοικούν, αποτελώντας ταυτόχρονα τον φορέα της επίσημης γλώσσας, συνιστά κατά συνέπεια την «ψίχα» του «εθνικού κορμού».
The problem with this is that the Greek Helsinki Monitor claims (http://dev.eurac.edu:8085/mugs2/do/blob.html?type=html&serial=1044526702223) that Jews also consider themselves Greeks.
The combined figures for those with a non-Greek national identity indicate that they do not exceed 1% of the 11 million population. Besides that, there are some numerous groups of Roma, Arvanites/Arberor, Vlachs/Aromanians and few Meglenopromanians, and a small number of Jews. No one among them proclaims nowadays a non-Greek national identity: whereas a few among them have what can be described as a corresponding ethnic identity, along the national Greek one, the vast majority are fully assimilated, not even maintaining (for the non-Roma) their mother tongue.
Did the Orthodox Church influence them also? What about the Catholic Greeks as well? Attributing everything to religion is a very simplistic approach and is abused for propaganda purposes, it implies that assimilation was forced on them by a Greek-speaking Orthodox leveling campaign. Assimilation can be voluntary you know, this is best demonstrated by the path taken by immigrants to America and Australia.

[TirAlb]

Tell me TirAlb does that make you a Gheg??

Im not sure that this makes me a Geg,but i have north Albanian origins,so im a Geg!

[Reaper]

TirAlb, I know you don't trust Greeks, but please, look where you are from, the systems forced on the people of Albania. Nothing 10% as bad has ever happened in Greece, even in its worst dictatorships. Than honestly look at Greece. We are not like you I am sorry. We did not force any Arvanites to become Greek. Please grow up. If we did, it would be famous, Greek communists would talk about it all day long. Use your common sense, not what other Albanians have quoted for you. Greeks don't care and didn't then. They were and are more bothered about making money than converting Albanians then, or the million or so immigrants now. These Avanites, like the slavs who settled in the Peloponese became Greek by marrying, and than fucking Greeks, producing children and then the end. They were not forced to marry Greeks for heaven sakes. There were no meetings or papers they had to sign to become Greeks, the way Turks made Greeks sign to islam in the Peloponese or have their town burnt. It is what has happened in Greece and other nations for centuries and millenia. Immigrants assimilating themselves into the country they find themselves in. I will suggest a good book. The memoirs of kolokotronis (Some of your Albanian compatriots even tried to claim him unsuccessfully as an Arvanites on Wiki, LOL). If you read this autobiography, you will see that many many Albanians were in the Peloponese at the time of the revolution. Not Arvanites, Albanians. And they were on the sde of the Turks, not Greeks. They were all fighters and had to be forcibly kicked out after they were defeated each time. They were extremely tough people. Almost fearless at times even when out numbered by Greeks. The Arvanites who have been in the peloponeses for atleast 300-800 years were akin to Greeks. No difference, except perhaps a second name that maybe suggested Arvanite descendants generations ago at one point. Their language, their allegiance, and psyche was greek, not Albanian.

there is no cover up here by Greeks, I am sorry.

There are English descended from the Normans and vikings all over the country. You think danes and french try the games your Albanian nationalistic propaganda merchants do? And they actually have a case! Many Vikings who settled were pushed to christianity! Did this happen with the Arvanites? Never.

[TirAlb]

TirAlb, I know you don't trust Greeks, but please, look where you are from, the systems forced on the people of Albania. Nothing 10% as bad has ever happened in Greece, even in its worst dictatorships. Than honestly look at Greece. We are not like you I am sorry. We did not force any Arvanites to become Greek. Please grow up. If we did, it would be famous, Greek communists would talk about it all day long. Use your common sense, not what other Albanians have quoted for you. Greeks don't care and didn't then. They were and are more bothered about making money than converting Albanians then, or the million or so immigrants now. These Avanites, like the slavs who settled in the Peloponese became Greek by marrying, and than fucking Greeks, producing children and then the end. They were not forced to marry Greeks for heaven sakes. There were no meetings or papers they had to sign to become Greeks, the way Turks made Greeks sign to islam in the Peloponese or have their town burnt. It is what has happened in Greece and other nations for centuries and millenia. Immigrants assimilating themselves into the country they find themselves in. I will suggest a good book. The memoirs of kolokotronis (Some of your Albanian compatriots even tried to claim him unsuccessfully as an Arvanites on Wiki, LOL). If you read this autobiography, you will see that many many Albanians were in the Peloponese at the time of the revolution. Not Arvanites, Albanians. And they were on the sde of the Turks, not Greeks. They were all fighters and had to be forcibly kicked out after they were defeated each time. They were extremely tough people. Almost fearless at times even when out numbered by Greeks. The Arvanites who have been in the peloponeses for atleast 300-800 years were akin to Greeks. No difference, except perhaps a second name that maybe suggested Arvanite descendants generations ago at one point. Their language, their allegiance, and psyche was greek, not Albanian.

there is no cover up here by Greeks, I am sorry.

There are English descended from the Normans and vikings all over the country. You think danes and french try the games your Albanian nationalistic propaganda merchants do? And they actually have a case! Many Vikings who settled were pushed to christianity! Did this happen with the Arvanites? Never.


I am from Albania and im proud of it,at the moment a poor country,but you know,history is made from up’s and down’s so…and i use my common sense,don’t worry!Are you using yours?
Don’t underestimate your capacities!
Greece use these politics even today,for instance we have this guy called Janullatos at the head of the Albanian orthodox church,that,time by time makes some “childish� provocations like using a White and blue backgroung during the Christmas mass,or this strange habit of preaching in greek,or his unbiased declarations when he said to an American giornalist:these(Albanians) are creating an islamist republic�,totally bullsh... but effective as negative propaganda.when such statement comes from the head of the Albanian orthodox church.Or one of the latest “pearls�:The priest(greek of course) of the village of kosina who exhumed the remains, of the old cemetery of the vlllage and than tried to portray those as greek soldiers,killed during WW2,fourtunately theres something called ADN test.Where were your communists when this happened?And all these things happened in the last years,there are hundred of other examples.
Ps:For you and the others try to put less “stuff� in your posts!Thanks;)

I think that the point is quite clear,Arvanites are Albanians that slowly became Greek under the influence of the Greek church!

[Orphic_Hymn]

and i use my common sense,don’t worry!Are you using yours?
From the following, I find it really hard to believe.

Greece use these politics even today,for instance we have this guy called Janullatos at the head of the Albanian orthodox church,that,time by time makes some “childish” provocations like using a White and blue backgroung during the Christmas mass,
You sound like Berisa that in 90's threw him out of the country because he was allegedly uprising the Hellenes in the South, conveniently this happened just around the time of the elections with the well known effect of beatings, grenades..etc in the South

or this strange habit of preaching in greek,
Preacing in Hellenic only takes place in regions where a mixed population exists, otherwise throughout your country they use a old translation of the Kings James Bible which is read in Albanian.


or his unbiased declarations when he said to an American giornalist:these(Albanians) are creating an islamist republic”,totally bullsh...
Do you have an official news source for this? since no matter how much I looked I didn't find one.


Or one of the latest “pearls”:The priest(greek of course) of the village of kosina who exhumed the remains, of the old cemetery of the vlllage and than tried to portray those as greek soldiers,killed during WW2,fourtunately theres something called ADN test.

I believe you mean DNA, but where are the results, last I heard Berisa put both the priest and the worker in custody and they were under "investigation" untill the labs come up with results?


Where were your communists when this happened?And all these things happened in the last years,there are hundred of other examples.
Why should the commies be there, its a dead political ideology, besides some don't like remembering certain parts of history:rolleyes:


I think that the point is quite clear,Arvanites are Albanians that slowly became Greek under the influence of the Greek church!
Clear? based on what?
I've made you a very simple question about WHY does the author of the very same text make refference to the Arvanites as a separate group from the Albanians and you have yet to answer ?

[Truth Bearer]

To differentiate b/w Orthodox and Catholics???

[Tsontos]

To differentiate b/w Orthodox and Catholics???

Why are there still so many other Orthodox Albanians besides the Arvanites?

[Victor]

I think that the point is quite clear,Arvanites are Albanians that slowly became Greek under the influence of the Greek church!
If they were Albanians(and I dont care if they were),why couldnt you guys KEEP them Albanian?
Lets not forget that Muslim Albanians had great influence in the Ottoman Empire for centuries during the period that you say the Arvanites "became" Greek.Too bad for you that most Albanians back then were more Muslim than Albanian.They probably hated the Arvanites more than anyone.
Maybe you should look in the mirror instead of blaming the Greeks for your horrible weakness.

[Truth Bearer]

There was no such ideology as Albanian anyway the Orthodox Albanians related more with the Orthodox church than with the Muslims or Catholics.The first Albanian who had some form of Albanian consciousness was Fan Noli(Orthodox) who totally united them as Albanians accepting Muslims and Catholics as one people.

[Truth Bearer]

We must also remember that an Albanian conciousness developed last in the Balkans in the 1880's onwards.Because of the 3 different religions they had no national conciousness.

[Tsontos]

Yes they did. Like Greeks, Serbs, Armenians and Bulgarians, there was an Albanian linguistic and ethnic consciousness, just that religion and regionalism took precedence.

[Truth Bearer]

Bulgarslayer they were the last to develop a national concioussness.....

[Tsontos]

They were the last to have the sort of national enlightenment which would lead to an independence movement. That does not mean they had no ethnic consciousness beforehand.

[Truth Bearer]

If they did why didn't they envision a united Albania?Why would the muslims call themselves Albanians and the Orthodox Arvanites??I mean they shared the same language so we believe that they were of 1 race??

[TirAlb]

There was no such ideology as Albanian anyway the Orthodox Albanians related more with the Orthodox church than with the Muslims or Catholics.The first Albanian who had some form of Albanian consciousness was Fan Noli(Orthodox) who totally united them as Albanians accepting Muslims and Catholics as one people.


You are wrong!Noli was a great man but absolutely not the first!He is the founder of The Albanian Orthodox Autocephalus Church,and he didnt had some but he had a full consciouness,he was also albanian prime minister,priest,writer,translator...


...One of the first was "Abdyl Frasheri".

[Truth Bearer]

The Rise of Albanian Nationalism

The 1877-78 Russo-Turkish War dealt a decisive blow to Ottoman power in the Balkan Peninsula, leaving the empire with only a precarious hold on Macedonia and the Albanian-populated lands. The Albanians' fear that the lands they inhabited would be partitioned among Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece fueled the rise of Albanian nationalism. The first postwar treaty, the abortive Treaty of San Stefano (see Glossary) signed on March 3, 1878, assigned Albanian-populated lands to Serbia, Montenegro, and Bulgaria. Austria-Hungary and Britain blocked the arrangement because it awarded Russia a predominant position in the Balkans and thereby upset the European balance of power. A peace conference to settle the dispute was held later in the year in Berlin.

The Treaty of San Stefano triggered profound anxiety among the Albanians meanwhile, and it spurred their leaders to organize a defense of the lands they inhabited. In the spring of 1878, influential Albanians in Constantinople--including Abdyl Frasheri, the Albanian national movement's leading figure during its early years--organized a secret committee to direct the Albanians' resistance. In May the group called for a general meeting of representatives from all the Albanian-populated lands. On June 10, 1878, about eighty delegates, mostly Muslim religious leaders, clan chiefs, and other influential people from the four Albanian-populated Ottoman vilayets, met in the Kosovo town of Prizren. The delegates set up a standing organization, the Prizren League, under the direction of a central committee that had the power to impose taxes and raise an army. The Prizren League worked to gain autonomy for the Albanians and to thwart implementation of the Treaty of San Stefano, but not to create an independent Albania.

At first the Ottoman authorities supported the Prizren League, but the Sublime Porte pressed the delegates to declare themselves to be first and foremost Ottomans rather than Albanians. Some delegates supported this position and advocated emphasizing Muslim solidarity and the defense of Muslim lands, including present-day Bosnia and Hercegovina. Other representatives, under Frasheri's leadership, focused on working toward Albanian autonomy and creating a sense of Albanian identity that would cut across religious and tribal lines. Because conservative Muslims constituted a majority of the representatives, the Prizren League supported maintenance of Ottoman suzerainty.

In July 1878, the league sent a memorandum to the Great Powers at the Congress of Berlin, which was called to settle the unresolved problems of Turkish War, demanding that all Albanians be united in a single Ottoman province that would be governed from Bitola by a Turkish governor who would be advised by an Albanian committee elected by universal suffrage.

The Congress of Berlin ignored the league's memorandum, and Germany's Otto von Bismarck even proclaimed that an Albanian nation did not exist. The congress ceded to Montenegro the cities of Bar and Podgorica and areas around the mountain villages of Gusinje and Plav, which Albanian leaders considered Albanian territory. Serbia also won Albanian-inhabited lands. The Albanians, the vast majority loyal to the empire, vehemently opposed the territorial losses. Albanians also feared the possible loss of Epirus to Greece. The Prizren League organized armed resistance efforts in Gusinje, Plav, Shkodër, Prizren, Prevesa, and Janina. A border tribesman at the time described the frontier as "floating on blood."

In August 1878, the Congress of Berlin ordered a commission to trace a border between the Ottoman Empire and Montenegro. The congress also directed Greece and the Ottoman Empire to negotiate a solution to their border dispute. The Great Powers expected the Ottomans to ensure that the Albanians would respect the new borders, ignoring that the sultan's military forces were too weak to enforce any settlement and that the Ottomans could only benefit by the Albanians' resistance. The Sublime Porte, in fact, armed the Albanians and allowed them to levy taxes, and when the Ottoman army withdrew from areas awarded to Montenegro under the Treaty of Berlin, Roman Catholic Albanian tribesmen simply took control. The Albanians' successful resistance to the treaty forced the Great Powers to alter the border, returning Gusinje and Plav to the Ottoman Empire and granting Montenegro the mostly Muslim Albanian-populated coastal town of Ulcinj. But the Albanians there refused to surrender as well. Finally, the Great Powers blockaded Ulcinj by sea and pressured the Ottoman authorities to bring the Albanians under control. The Great Powers decided in 1881 to cede Greece only Thessaly and the small Albanian-populated district of Arta.

Faced with growing international pressure "to pacify" the refractory Albanians, the sultan dispatched a large army under Dervish Turgut Pasha to suppress the Prizren League and deliver Ulcinj to Montenegro. Albanians loyal to the empire supported the Sublime Porte's military intervention. In April 1881, Dervish Pasha's 10,000 men captured Prizren and later crushed the resistance at Ulcinj. The Prizren League's leaders and their families were arrested and deported. Frasheri, who originally received a death sentence, was imprisoned until 1885 and exiled until his death seven years later. In the three years it survived, the Prizren League effectively made the Great Powers aware of the Albanian people and their national interests. Montenegro and Greece received much less Albanian-populated territory than they would have won without the league's resistance.

Formidable barriers frustrated Albanian leaders' efforts to instill in their people an Albanian rather than an Ottoman identity. Divided into four vilayets, Albanians had no common geographical or political nerve center. The Albanians' religious differences forced nationalist leaders to give the national movement a purely secular character that alienated religious leaders. The most significant factor uniting the Albanians, their spoken language, lacked a standard literary form and even a standard alphabet. Each of the three available choices, the Latin, Cyrillic, and Arabic scripts, implied different political and religious orientations opposed by one or another element of the population. In 1878 there were no Albanian-language schools in the most developed of the Albanian-inhabited areas-- Gjirokastër, Berat, and Vlorë--where schools conducted classes either in Turkish or in Greek (see Education: Pre-Communist Era, ch. 2).

Albanian intellectuals in the late nineteenth century began devising a single, standard Albanian literary language and making demands that it be used in schools. In Constantinople in 1879, Sami Frasheri founded a cultural and educational organization, the Society for the Printing of Albanian Writings, whose membership comprised Muslim, Catholic, and Orthodox Albanians. Naim Frasheri, the most-renowned Albanian poet, joined the society and wrote and edited textbooks. Albanian émigrés in Bulgaria, Egypt, Italy, Romania, and the United States supported the society's work. The Greeks, who dominated the education of Orthodox Albanians, joined the Turks in suppressing the Albanians' culture, especially Albanian-language education. In 1886 the ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople threatened to excommunicate anyone found reading or writing Albanian, and priests taught that God would not understand prayers uttered in Albanian.

The Ottoman Empire continued to crumble after the Congress of Berlin. The empire's financial troubles prevented Sultan Abdül Hamid II from reforming his military, and he resorted to repression to maintain order. The authorities strove without success to control the political situation in the empire's Albanian-populated lands, arresting suspected nationalist activists. When the sultan refused Albanian demands for unification of the four Albanian-populated vilayets, Albanian leaders reorganized the Prizren League and incited uprisings that brought the Albanian lands, especially Kosovo, to near anarchy. The imperial authorities again disbanded the Prizren League in 1897, executed its president in 1902, and banned Albanian- language books and correspondence. In Macedonia, where Bulgarian-, Greek-, and Serbian-backed terrorists were fighting Ottoman authorities and one another for control, Muslim Albanians suffered attacks, and Albanian guerrilla groups retaliated. In 1906 Albanian leaders meeting in Bitola established the secret Committee for the Liberation of Albania. A year later, Albanian guerrillas assassinated Korçë's Greek Orthodox metropolitan.

In 1906 opposition groups in the Ottoman Empire emerged, one of which evolved into the Committee of Union and Progress, more commonly known as the Young Turks, which proposed restoring constitutional government in Constantinople, by revolution if necessary. In July 1908, a month after a Young Turk rebellion in Macedonia supported by an Albanian uprising in Kosovo and Macedonia escalated into widespread insurrection and mutiny within the imperial army, Sultan Abdül Hamid II agreed to demands by the Young Turks to restore constitutional rule. Many Albanians participated in the Young Turks uprising, hoping that it would gain their people autonomy within the empire. The Young Turks lifted the Ottoman ban on Albanian-language schools and on writing the Albanian language. As a consequence, Albanian intellectuals meeting in Bitola in 1908 chose the Latin alphabet as a standard script. The Young Turks, however, were set on maintaining the empire and not interested in making concessions to the myriad nationalist groups within its borders. After securing the abdication of Abdül Hamid II in April 1909, the new authorities levied taxes, outlawed guerrilla groups and nationalist societies, and attempted to extend Constantinople's control over the northern Albanian mountainmen. In addition, the Young Turks legalized the bastinado, or beating with a stick, even for misdemeanors, banned carrying rifles, and denied the existence of an Albanian nationality. The new government also appealed for Islamic solidarity to break the Albanians' unity and used the Muslim clergy to try to impose the Arabic alphabet.

The Albanians refused to submit to the Young Turks' campaign to "Ottomanize" them by force. New Albanian uprisings began in Kosovo and the northern mountains in early April 1910. Ottoman forces quashed these rebellions after three months, outlawed Albanian organizations, disarmed entire regions, and closed down schools and publications. Montenegro, preparing to grab Albanian-populated lands for itself, supported a 1911 uprising by the mountain tribes against the Young Turks regime that grew into a widespread revolt. Unable to control the Albanians by force, the Ottoman government granted concessions on schools, military recruitment, and taxation and sanctioned the use of the Latin script for the Albanian language. The government refused, however, to unite the four Albanian-inhabited vilayets.



Raymond Zickel and Walter R. Iwaskiw, editors. Albania: A Country Study. Washington: GPO for the Library of Congress, 1994.

[TirAlb]

The Greeks, who dominated the education of Orthodox Albanians, joined the Turks in suppressing the Albanians' culture, especially Albanian-language education. In 1886 the ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople threatened to excommunicate anyone found reading or writing Albanian, and priests taught that God would not understand prayers uttered in Albanian.

Thats what i was talking about!

[Orphic_Hymn]

Thats what i was talking about!

No this is not exactly what you were claiming:
started from the greek church during the ottoman period

the above article is clearly talking about the late 1800's and specifically about the region of Albania and states nothing remotely close to anything you've claimed about the forcive conversion of the Arvanites residing in Hellas.

[TirAlb]

No this is not exactly what you were claiming:
the above article is clearly talking about the late 1800's and specifically about the region of Albania and states nothing remotely close to anything you've claimed about the forcive conversion of the Arvanites residing in Hellas.



The above article,in the paragraph quoted is clearly talking,about the cooperation between the patriarch of constantinople and the ottoman empire in order to suffocate any rising form of Albanian identity.Why should i think that the way of doing of these institutions toward Albanians was different before 1800,and than suddenly changed?!

"You too should study, my brethren; learn as much as you can. And if your fathers haven't, educate your children to learn Greek because our Church uses Greek. And if you don't learn Greek, my brethren, you can't understand what our Church confesses."

…Cosmas of Aetolia (1714-1779) said this,and im just trying to think about these poor fellows that had two alternatives:learn(idem become) greek or burn in hell.If this is not a forcature!

[Victor]

The above article,in the paragraph quoted is clearly talking,about the cooperation between the patriarch of constantinople and the ottoman empire in order to suffocate any rising form of Albanian identity.Why should i think that the way of doing of these institutions toward Albanians was different before 1800,and than suddenly changed?!
So what?The church dominated the education of Orthodox Albanians BEFORE the Ottoman Empire.
Stop blaming others for your weakness.

[Orphic_Hymn]

The above article,in the paragraph quoted is clearly talking,about the cooperation between the patriarch of constantinople and the ottoman empire in order to suffocate any rising form of Albanian identity.Why should i think that the way of doing of these institutions toward Albanians was different before 1800,and than suddenly changed?!

"You too should study, my brethren; learn as much as you can. And if your fathers haven't, educate your children to learn Greek because our Church uses Greek. And if you don't learn Greek, my brethren, you can't understand what our Church confesses."

…Cosmas of Aetolia (1714-1779) said this,and im just trying to think about these poor fellows that had two alternatives:learn(idem become) greek or burn in hell.If this is not a forcature!

Where did you see anything remotey close to a reference of "co-operation"?
the "joined the Turks" doesn't mean co-operation but rather adoption of their tactics of suppressing the culture.
But then again, your misinterpretation of the text is proved to be intentional through your manipulation of the quote of St. Kosmas' words in an attempt to claim persecutions... the exact quote is:

The Prophet Moses studied for forty years to learn his letters in order to understand where he walked. You too should study, my brethren; learn as much as you can. And if you fathers haven't, educate your children to learn Greek because our Church uses Greek. And if you don't learn Greek, my brethren, you can't understand what our Church confesses. It is better, my brother, for you to have a Greek school in your village rather than fountains and rivers, for when your child becomes educated, he is then a human being. The school opens churches; the school opens monasteries.

the words in bold just like the sentence both in bold and underlined indicate exactly what the true mission of St. Kosmas was, and that was to educate among others, your totally ignorant population. A simple glance at his life would have also indicated this fact, for he is well known to have established over 150 schools to educate the ignorant.

[TirAlb]

Where did you see anything remotey close to a reference of "co-operation"?
the "joined the Turks" doesn't mean co-operation but rather adoption of their tactics of suppressing the culture.
But then again, your misinterpretation of the text is proved to be intentional through your manipulation of the quote of St. Kosmas' words in an attempt to claim persecutions... the exact quote is:


the words in bold just like the sentence both in bold and underlined indicate exactly what the true mission of St. Kosmas was, and that was to educate among others, your totally ignorant population. A simple glance at his life would have also indicated this fact, for he is well known to have established over 150 schools to educate the ignorant.


Are you suggesting that the patriarch was operating in clandestinity?
Manipulation?!The meaning of the text is sadly the same,a clear attempt to brainwash the Albanians,none denies your bravure,indeed building greek schools in those areas was like selling refrigerators to the Eskimos.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Are you suggesting that the patriarch was operating in clandestinity?
Manipulation?!The meaning of the text is sadly the same,a clear attempt to brainwash the Albanians,none denies your bravure,indeed building greek schools in those areas was like selling refrigerators to the Eskimos.

I'm suggesting the evident which is that one event is not related to the other in any form of "agreed co-operation" as you fallaciously attempt to present it and had you read the life of the individual who's words you distorted above, you would have known that his strife to "sell a fridge to Eskimos" was considered reason enough for him to be considered an "agent" and lead to his execution by those who you claim to be his little partners.

Nice little agreement they had there.:wacko:

The whole point is that you are building your argument on the absurd claim of forcive Hellenization based on a quote related to the late 1800's when in reality, the Arvanites had already proven that they had denounced whatever limited cultural ties had existed centuries before the events in question and did anything but claim or even think of relations to the hated "Turk-Albanians" (a title found in various texts like the memoirs of Fotakos, Kolokotronis, Makrygiannis).
The point is that you have totally failed to provide an explanation as to why the very first reference of your people even prior to their invitation into Hellas, made by M.Attaleiates in 1040AD, also indicates a distinction between the 2 peoples since they are clearly refered to separately. A distinction which is seen in a number of later texts like in the letters of M.Paleologos II (lines 106-108) in which its clarified that the Albanians (refered to as Illyrians in the text) did not participate in the uprising in Mani which was lead by Kladas, a pure-blooded Arvanitis.