Hi, dont mean to go way out of Hellenic topics, but this figure has influenced not only Hellas but the whole world. So my question is this.

What was Jesus doing between the day he was born, and well the last few days. Please dont reply with an answers such as "he was making stools and tables" or "he went to find god".

They say Jesus died around 33? Now they say Mark was the first Gospel, then Mathew Luke and John followed deriving there writing naturaly from his Mark mentions the destruction of the Jewish temple which happened in the year 70 A.D right, the gospels came much later then that year....we have gap of 40 decades or more....why?
I mean Jesus at this time would have been a power figure, and no one bothered to be by his side and take accounts. No historias! Not even a Greek or a Roman historian to write about this man while he was alive! Why?

Has anyone got any theories because its kinda dark for me, and im sure many of you. Why do we so confidently walk into a church and think we know whats going on? Why do we wanna believe so much about something we dont even understand? What ever happened to being practical like our forfather taught us, Socrates?

I hope no one is offended by this post my friends, but i just wanna know thats all.

You mean 4 decades, the theory is that it was either written prior to the destruction and should be perceived as a prophecy or that it was written after and intentionally put into His mouth to seem as such.

Anyone else. ( yea sorry i ment 4 decades, you wanna laugh the other day i asked for 12 dozen oysters!)

"For when they say that Dionysus arose again and ascended to heaven, is it not evident the devil has imitated the prophecy?" ---Justin Martyr, Church Father.100 A.D ---165 A.D

Writings of Justin



1.The First Apology addressed to Antoninus Pius, his sons, and the Roman Senate;
2.a Second Apology addressed to the Roman Senate;
3.the Discourse to the Greeks, a discussion with Greek philosophers on the character of their gods; 4.
4.a Hortatory Address to the Greeks;
5.a treatise On the Sovereignty of God, in which he makes use of pagan authorities as well as Christian;
6.a work entitled The Psalmist;
7.a treatise in scholastic form On the Soul; and
8.the Dialogue with Trypho.

He goes on to say that Greeks borrowed philosophy from The Old Testament such as LOGOS, and that Christianity copletes the LOGOS? He uses Plato, Stoics, Heraclitus as taking steps to a one God (major misperception by many)....


Why such negative/ uneducated feedback by the early and modern church fathers in regards to evidence of Greek Christ's like Hercules, Dionysus, Socrates etc

No one believes in them now, we have made them into sex and comic book figures....what makes Jesus so real?

What ever happened to being practical like our forfather taught us, Socrates?


LOLOLOLOLOL.


What makes Jesus so real?

AHAHAHAHAHA.

Come on, you know the answer.

Anyway, it's a bit weird how every gospel/evangelist writes different accounts of his life too, and many things appear only by one person.

What troubles me, is what he did between 10/12 and 30 years old.

As a child he is seen around the age of 12 talking with the rabbis in some synagogue and then we meet him again 30 years old...

Many propose he travelled to the far east, came in contact with those cults in Tibet and stuff and then returned to preach everything with a jewish flavor...

But I don't know if any of this is true.

Can someone giove me an answer please? Anyone i could to talk to about ths? Theologists in Sydney who will take there time to discuss this with me?
Can i speak to a Greek priest about this? Your help will be appreciated guys.

He uses Plato, Stoics, Heraclitus as taking steps to a one God (major misperception by many)....

Why such negative/ uneducated feedback by the early and modern church fathers in regards to evidence of Greek Christ's like Hercules, Dionysus, Socrates etc


Not really the one to answer your questions but here are some thoughts..

Well Plato in his Timaios does indeed mention a "Creator" (δημιουργὸς) several times, Plotninos speaks of the "One", Orpheus talks about (Μῆτιν, Φάνητα, Ἐρικεπαῖον·) being not only 3 powers of the same God but actually three unique entities that complete eachother indicating something related to the notion of the "holy trinitry".. these among several others, are all thoughts which later gave birth to Christianity..

Besides Doinysus, which was a God and the story of his ressurection, I don't see why you'd consider Herakles or Sokrates someone comparible to "Christ".

Well if you look at Hercules and Socrates life they both sacrificed themselves for reasons which project Christ like deeds.

We have Hercules, who made wonderings confronted himself and accepted he made sins in life, he then took a cleansing path which involved the 12 labours for man kind, or perhaps to find his way to imortality.

Socrates on teh othetr hand was potraid as a sinner and a corruptor of youth or for brain washing etc...Jesus to was potraited as this by the Rabi...condemned to death by the Greek courth, Socrates was also asked by one of his pears to escape with them, Socrates refused and welcomed death as new life, Christ was also asked to escape death he refused for the same reason...........

Well if you look at Hercules and Socrates life they both sacrificed themselves for reasons which project Christ like deeds.

We have Hercules, who made wonderings confronted himself and accepted he made sins in life, he then took a cleansing path which involved the 12 labours for man kind, or perhaps to find his way to imortality.

Socrates on teh othetr hand was potraid as a sinner and a corruptor of youth or for brain washing etc...Jesus to was potraited as this by the Rabi...condemned to death by the Greek courth, Socrates was also asked by one of his pears to escape with them, Socrates refused and welcomed death as new life, Christ was also asked to escape death he refused for the same reason...........

You want the church fathers to recognise a myth (hercules) as being comparible to Christ...i think we all need to understand the difference between Christianity and ancient greek folklore, and the fact that Hercules (im trying not to laugh) and Socrates did not raise from the dead!
Laconian you will always find positive/negative arguments in topics such as this. There is no clear answer and relies solely on faith, personal experiences with religion, upbringings etc

You want the church fathers to recognise a myth (hercules) as being comparible to Christ...i think we all need to understand the difference between Christianity and ancient greek folklore, and the fact that Hercules (im trying not to laugh) and Socrates did not raise from the dead!


And il try not laugh when you believe a man rose from death just because you read it aswell.Your a smart cookie arent ya.:wacko:

You say Hercules is folklore...and exactly how do you know? You mean to tell me these people who brought the world to light , science, maths, astronomy and philosophy where that simple they believed in folklore? I think you and many others need to keep an open mind, i myself believe only in science, sometimes i see or hear things that tap into my spiritual side, but i will not stand by and hear people call Greek myths folklore and yet call the bible a true story when once again its a myth.

Jesus walked on water, Hercules had the strenght of a god...what you choose to believe is yours...i agree, but dont go telling me whats the truth just because it sound better to you.

And let me correct you and say that Hercules was risen in spirit and became a part of the pantheon...a god..juts like "lord" jesus christ became when he rose? One was Greek, the other a Jew. They both carrie the same symbol.

Theres a pendand which was found and dates back more than 100 B.C Its a crucified Orpheus, why dont you research it.

Well if you look at Hercules and Socrates life they both sacrificed themselves for reasons which project Christ like deeds.

We have Hercules, who made wonderings confronted himself and accepted he made sins in life, he then took a cleansing path which involved the 12 labours for man kind, or perhaps to find his way to imortality.

Socrates on teh othetr hand was potraid as a sinner and a corruptor of youth or for brain washing etc...Jesus to was potraited as this by the Rabi...condemned to death by the Greek courth, Socrates was also asked by one of his pears to escape with them, Socrates refused and welcomed death as new life, Christ was also asked to escape death he refused for the same reason...........

Yeah I see your point but they are both very far from anyting that could be compared to the notion of Christ.

Socrates was a philosopher and from what I know, nothing was ever written about him being related to the notion of God and while Herakles was indeed portrayed as Zeus' son, there are more than a few reasons to believe that he was an actual historic figure instead of God's son and that when Euemerus said that "myths are history in diguise" actually had Herakles in mind as an example.
Check out the 2nd post in this thread (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/other-greek-debates/457-misinterpretation-hellinic-mythology.html?highlight=herakles) so that you'll see what I'm talking about.

I agree my friend, but you see we are talking about the symbolic side, i use Socrates because he to in a way is a myth, he never actualy wrote anything, we hardly know anything of his origin, i sometimes believe he was created as crypto symbol in Platos writings...but thats for another subject, my point is in life, before Jesus we already had notions of Christ, what would be the point of keeping the story the same..you see the trick is in the meaning of the Christ...SACRIFICE...Isis, Orpheus, Dionysus, Socrates, Leonidas the list goes on, and many non Greek myths contain a Christ..a saviour if you like....im talking about the symbolism. Socrates always spoke of the ONE as did many other philosophers, Our pantheon was controlled by ONE force, that is why Greek never limited themselves to the ONE, its impossible when it possess everything in and out, what made the ONE? Nothing they say, its self made impossible because scientificaly speaking everything is made from something else ONE within the other..LOGOS.

Our ancestors argued these things over and over...dont take the 12 gods in flesh, they never did...it was symbolic, thats what i wanna know, whats the big deal.....what is the meaning of all this?

Hermes Trismegistus was 2000 year B.C and an actual figure in Greece, he was the father of Alchemy( read it up_ Sir Isac Newton has actualy used him in all his works...he has even translated the ancient Greek text...I think Jesus is a symbol for something...Sun? Energy? he returned to the one? became the one? is god? we are god? my head hurst...me go sleep.....

Other Christ like notions which our ancestros had were Mithras, which was a god that ascended into heaven.This then became a practice in Greece as the MYSTIRIA of MITHRAS.Several stories exist concerning the birth of Mithras. Some stories say that he sprang from a living rock or a tree. One sculpture found on Hadrian's Wall depicts Mithras hatching from a "Cosmic Egg." Another story claims that he was born of a virgin on December 25. This date was celebrated as the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, or the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Some depictions of his birth show shepherds in attendance, while others show only two torchbearers. Sounds like Jesus to me. Mind you the practise of this cult was like 300 years before Christ was born, who knws when the myth was pread across Greece. Perhaps O Isous came there to anitiate himslef and learn not to fear death?

Attis also has christ liek notions is his story.

This is why i question Christianity, even in religion, Helenics are ignored for there contribution to probably the most influential practice on earth.

I question.

Hi, dont mean to go way out of Hellenic topics, but this figure has influenced not only Hellas but the whole world. So my question is this.

What was Jesus doing between the day he was born, and well the last few days. Please dont reply with an answers such as "he was making stools and tables" or "he went to find god".

Nobody can answer your question. There is too little evidence today to have a conclusive answer. Surely you see this? :) I think you have to look inside your own heart and decide what you personally believe and don't worry about what other people believe.

For the record, I believe He was lying low between 12 and 30. Now don't laugh at me, but I've heard some pretty far-out stuff in astrology that something called The Second Saturn Return occurs at age 28: this is supposedly when the planet Saturn is in the exact same position as it was at a person's birth; it usually means a change in one's life, so their years up to 30 can be very unstable and upsetting. Maybe Jesus waited until this period was over. Don't forget that if He was who He claimed to be, then He was meant to be a model for all humanity. What kind of example would He want to show us? First of all, allegiance and respect towards family. He would have honoured His father and mother. He would have helped Joseph and Mary and provided for His younger siblings until they were old enough to work. What's wrong with Him having been a carpenter for a while? And think of this: Every day, when He walked into that workshop, He would have been confronted with the reality of His future destiny: To be nailed to two pieces of wood. Even then, God was preparing Him for what He had to do.

Another thing. The Bible doesn't mention Joseph during Jesus' ministry. This probably means that Joseph died before Jesus turned 30. This would have freed Jesus from His obligation to His earthly father and allowed Him to concentrate on serving His eternal Father, God. Even Alexander the Great had to make this decision. At some point, you've got to cut the ties loose and leave your family and their restrictions behind and create your own path, following the road that has been set out for you. This, I believe, is what Jesus wanted to model for human beings. He even said, in the gospels, that "Whoever loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me." (You can find the exact passage in any online concordance).

They say Jesus died around 33? Now they say Mark was the first Gospel, then Mathew Luke and John followed deriving there writing naturaly from his Mark mentions the destruction of the Jewish temple which happened in the year 70 A.D right, the gospels came much later then that year....we have gap of 40 decades or more....why?

Again, here, I think we really need to put ourselves in those men's shoes. Imagine being in Israel at that time and witnessing first-hand Jesus' resurrection from the dead. Imagine how you would react. Would you close yourself in a room and start writing? Imagine the electrifying excitement you would feel and the heaviness of the obligation on your shoulders to go and preach the gospel near and far. If you read the book of Acts, you will get a clear picture of this excitement the apostles felt. They just wanted to GET OUT THERE! To reach the unsaved and be witnesses to the greatest miracle ever done on earth. These were simple men; what they went through had a profound effect on them. They wanted to share it. They had a fire in their hearts, they had passion and drive and they had the Holy Spirit, Who performed miracles among them and guided them wherever they went. Through the Holy Spirit, they remembered every single event in the life of Christ that had vital significance and when they got too old to run around preaching, they sat and wrote their accounts of Jesus.

If you think of how DNA is read by our bodies, it can be an analogy (hopefully not too far-fetched!) Not one piece of information is lost in the transcription process, and yet, DNA can be packaged by our cells into tiny, compact chromosomes that look like so many random pieces of fluff. They just sit there, until it is time for the DNA to be unpacked and read. It is the same with the gospels. All the events in the life of Christ must have seemed a big blur to the apostles. Yet, the Holy Spirit, like some great Translator, unpacked all this information (into different languages too) and the apostles were able to recall each event, step by step, with no information being lost.

This is the believer's explanation. If you want a non-believer's explanation, I'm sure there are many you could find, with many different theories going into great detail about just what conspiracies went on to ensure the writing of a religious propaganda document.:dry:

I mean Jesus at this time would have been a power figure, and no one bothered to be by his side and take accounts. No historias! Not even a Greek or a Roman historian to write about this man while he was alive! Why?

Of course there are histories. Many Greeks were in Israel at the time of Christ and many more witnessed the gospel being preached in Thessaloniki and Greek cities in Asia Minor by the apostles. In Acts, you can read about what happened when Peter (or Paul) visited Athens. This alone convinces me that the Bible is true. It is a perfect example of how Athenians of that time would have reacted to the arrival of the apostles. And as for the rest of the Greeks who became believers, they passed accounts down by word of mouth. Why do you think we dye eggs red at Easter today? It is because of a miracle that happened TO Greeks IN Greek folklore, that GREEKS remember and treasure, but which was not recognised by the Jewish writers of the New Testament and so does not appear in the Bible.

Jesus did heaps of stuff which isn't in the Bible but which Greeks talk about today. One example is He encountered a person who was practising magic and He told them that their magic would be successful, but their souls would never find eternal rest. Everything that is claimed has some basis in truth. You cannot just make something up and have people believe it. It has to have at least a little bit of truth in it, because it comes from an idea. Every idea has some merit to it.

So, just as Jews have the Talmud today, which is a collection of their oral commentaries, but which you won't find in the Old Testament, Greeks too have an oral history of Christianity which you won't find in the New Testament. This is before even beginning to get into the post-Roman era of Greek saints and the books they wrote, each one a witness to the transforming power of God in their lives.

Why do we so confidently walk into a church and think we know whats going on? Why do we wanna believe so much about something we dont even understand? What ever happened to being practical like our forfather taught us, Socrates?

Good point. Why DO we walk into church and not question? Why do we not have access to the books and texts that our priests read? Why aren't we more like the Jews, who actually have classes to study their religion every week? The way we're going, we won't be Orthodox Christians for much longer because its meaning will have become completely lost to us. I say this: Question everything. There is always safety in truth. So if you don't feel safe, if something doesn't add up, always question. Only when your soul is completely at peace can you either accept a verdict or admit to no solution.

I hope I have not come on too strong on this topic. I've also always wondered about this stuff and this seemed a good opportunity to voice some of my thoughts.

I hope you find the answers you are looking for.
Cheers friend.:)

Interesting theory Alita. I like some of your conclusions about Jesus. But again we can come to the final conclusion, his point, his visions, his goal and his word has been carried out by our people ( the Hellenics) there is no point in arguing this because we would take up most of this forum.

Your conclusions are good from a beleivers point of view, and if you believe, well the mind runs and invents whatever it can to make it as real as possible, im not putting you down, but lets face ist so many years after Christs death we have these apostles who feel now is the time to start writing ? what for?

There is nothing behind Christianity but faith, and yes thats a powerful thing, but it can renender you blind at the same time, not allowing your mind to be free, it restricts you from facing the truth and the only truth.

Jesus doesnt say a word of what the Greeks had achieved in term od democracy which Jerusalem didnt have at that stage, he never spoke of the spirituality of other cultures let alone Hellas, or the Plato or Socrates who overshadows him, even in the LOVE sector, for Socrates said the highest of virtues is real LOVE...which is what Jesus was trying to get though to everyone in his life time.

This is my though, i beleiev in Jesus, i cannot deny him because even if he is a symbol, he is a magnificant one at that. I believe he turned around what we were heading for thank to our Roman brother...pft....he saw a world that would be ruled by slavery, without freedom of love, a world of lust.

I thank him for bringing a much needed injection of free philosophy to us, but he didnt bring anything new,,he arose teh Helenic spirit which was in darkness due to the WAR lovers the Romans.

And that is why Greeks drew closer to this faith, but along the way, the Church was there to make sure it once again took away the freedom , to restrict the truth, ad it does it well. For good or for bad...that im not sure of.

I beleive Christ was acombination of crypto symbolics wrtings that the Greeks had already, its funny how after the Greek and Roman domination, and all the influenec of teh Greeks would have had on the Jews this Cjrist comes along to preach what we already had. LOVE & FREEDOM and the belief in RE-INCARNATION.

I respect Isous with all my heart, i even have a statue of him along with Socrates Plato and Aristotle...

The Church is what i stay away from.




I

Well Plato in his Timaios does indeed mention a "Creator"

I am a bit ignorant about Orpheus and Plotinos, as I have not studied them yet, but I read Timaios very recently and I have an opinion.

Someone who reads Timaios and believes it's a prechristian Bible stays only in the basics.

Plato does not try to define god in his work. In fact he tries to explain how the human body works, that's why you'll read many things about anatomy, male and female organs, he even gives a very cool and accurate meaning about the eyesight and the way it's used.

That's to understand the kind of difference and the peak of knowledge our forefathers had reached...

As for the "Demiourgos" thing, Plato believed that there may be some higher power behind life for everything to work as it works. His opinion. But because it suits christians today should they steal this word from Timaios and ignore the rest of the book?

It's as absurd as if a christian nowadays says that whenever Homer wrote "theos" (referring to a certain god, mainly Zeus) in the Illiad and the Odyssey, he actually refers to the unnamed christian god that the average christian person calls "theos".

There is nothing behind Christianity but faith

Faith alone does nothing, no matter how we like to make our words beautiful and say "I respect everyone who has faith in something, whatever that is".

Faith will not save you from sickness or death.

Determination and science will.

Faith alone does nothing, no matter how we like to make our words beautiful and say "I respect everyone who has faith in something, whatever that is".

Faith will not save you from sickness or death.

Determination and science will.

I dont realy agree with that. Determination is a part of FAITH, which ever way look at it. All greeks had faith, some rode in name of Zues other in the name of Athena some just for FREEDOM (Spartans/Athenians)
...at the end of the day, its faith and love that pushes us to our limits.

Determination is a part of FAITH

Faith to what?

Not really the one to answer your questions but here are some thoughts..

Well Plato in his Timaios does indeed mention a "Creator" (δημιουργὸς) several times, Plotninos speaks of the "One", Orpheus talks about (Μῆτιν, Φάνητα, Ἐρικεπαῖον·) being not only 3 powers of the same God but actually three unique entities that complete eachother indicating something related to the notion of the "holy trinitry".. these among several others, are all thoughts which later gave birth to Christianity..

Besides Doinysus, which was a God and the story of his ressurection, I don't see why you'd consider Herakles or Sokrates someone comparible to "Christ".

Plato talks often about the creator or the god but he mainly refers to Zeus, not a christian god. I noticed this in "Logos yper tou adynatou" and was troubled about it.

Faith to what?

Faith is behind evrything, even love. I do not need to get into the mechanics of this, if you are as free spirited as you so seem to be, you know even in your own path in life you have faith in something, whatever it may be, science, freedom, 12 gods etc....every move you make and thought you have is held by faith.

Simply, the belief in that ist all going to work out the way you think or hope it will.

The thing about Jesus is that He's the only person on Earth who ever seriously challenged people regarding their faith. Faith is not a word we can toss around easily. It means literally sacrificing your whole life for something you can't even see. The Bible states it as "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." (Hebrews 11:1)

In my mind it is very simple. You either believe in something or you don't. If you don't believe Jesus Christ is God, then you don't believe in Jesus and are not a Christian. Jesus challenges people because he claimed that whoever doesn't believe he is God in the flesh does not believe in God either. Well I know many people who say they believe in God or a higher power but they don't want to have anything to do with Jesus. So the people who believe in Him go their way, rejoicing that they've found the Way, the Truth and the Life and that their eternal future is secure, while the people who don't believe go THEIR way, rejoicing that their minds are open and that they don't need the crutch of religion to cope with life. Both groups are convinced that they are right and the other group is wrong. Meanwhile, you have some from each group 'crossing the floor' and converting to the other side, kicking up some excitement for the rest and all this is going on in the middle of a religious melting-pot of terrorists, do-gooders, philosophers, breeders, activists, capitalists, psychopaths, environmentalists and politicians, each and every single one of them searching for the ultimate secret: the key to lasting happiness in life.

I guess instead of discussing faith, the question we should be asking is, how do we know we're not all completely:wacko:

Seriously, we may just be food for the entertainment schedule of the gods.

Παιγνια του Διος-Games of Zeus

Alita, i dont think i have seen in recorded histoyr of another ancient culture especialy the Greeks trying to convince the other group there Gods are real and theres not. As a matter of fact, the Greek sfeard that the 12 Gods not always played on there side, for example, in some sources the Greeks always point out that the Lybians are sometimes favoured more than the Greeks due to the amount of sacrificing they commit.

Nor have i seen in ancient Greek religion, persecution on others, Greeks knew this would be impossible because they themselves challanged everything that was laid before with science, Pythagoras im sure would have tried to swallow that bitter pill of knowing he would have to weave religion with his amazing knowledge on numbers to convince others around him, you see, spirituality needs to walk hand in hand with science, otherwise we loose our human side, balance is the key.

The Church suppresses this, only accepts death as the will of "the"God.It simplifies our way of living and doesnt allow what is most gifted to us by say, the Gods if you like....FREEDOM OF THOUGHT AND WILL (PROMETHEUS).

Overall, we must believe in something, but it seesm everything we believe in, we use to harm others.

Religion has been the most destructive tool since the birth of Christ, this, no one can deny.And this happens because of how little we actualy know about the purpose of life and death, imagination and fear takes over rational acting according to the philosophical principles.

Plato once said to his student, that he knew of some that retuned from death, Er the son of Armenius...read it, its Book 10 of the Republic....he goes on to explain the process of the afterlife and what awaits according to the myth of Er, his body didnt decay for 12 days and rose again to tell everyone of his journey.

Questioning is the path to the truth.

Alita, i dont think i have seen in recorded histoyr of another ancient culture especialy the Greeks trying to convince the other group there Gods are real and theres not. As a matter of fact, the Greek sfeard that the 12 Gods not always played on there side, for example, in some sources the Greeks always point out that the Lybians are sometimes favoured more than the Greeks due to the amount of sacrificing they commit.

Nor have i seen in ancient Greek religion, persecution on others, Greeks knew this would be impossible because they themselves challanged everything that was laid before with science, Pythagoras im sure would have tried to swallow that bitter pill of knowing he would have to weave religion with his amazing knowledge on numbers to convince others around him, you see, spirituality needs to walk hand in hand with science, otherwise we loose our human side, balance is the key.

The Church suppresses this, only accepts death as the will of "the"God.It simplifies our way of living and doesnt allow what is most gifted to us by say, the Gods if you like....FREEDOM OF THOUGHT AND WILL (PROMETHEUS).

Overall, we must believe in something, but it seesm everything we believe in, we use to harm others.

Religion has been the most destructive tool since the birth of Christ, this, no one can deny.And this happens because of how little we actualy know about the purpose of life and death, imagination and fear takes over rational acting according to the philosophical principles.

Plato once said to his student, that he knew of some that retuned from death, Er the son of Armenius...read it, its Book 10 of the Republic....he goes on to explain the process of the afterlife and what awaits according to the myth of Er, his body didnt decay for 12 days and rose again to tell everyone of his journey.

Questioning is the path to the truth.

I understand what you're saying. I don't believe it's God's will for people to kill each other either. Or to commit any evil acts. That's why in every religion there are consequences for things like murder, rape, theft etc.

I have heavily criticised the Greek Orthodox church in the past because of its stubborn refusal to quit following the system instituted by Jews. Only the Jews have a Holy of Holies: a place where only the priest and his attendants are permitted to enter. This goes totally against Christian doctrine, if you read the Bible carefully. In true Christian belief, the role of the human priest is redundant, because Jesus is our High Priest, in the order of Melchizedek. So there is no need to confess our sins to a priest, just to Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross, the curtain of the temple was torn in two (the curtain that divided the Holy of Holies from the place where the general congregation gathered). This means that there is now no need to have a place in church that is separate from the congregation, because all people are acknowledged to be equal in both virtue and sin, "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." So why does the Orthodox church still have this separate place? Do they deny this part of the Bible?

Also, as "there is now neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, for all have become equal in Christ", women are equal to men in virtue. So why are women not allowed in the Iero? In a church that was fully following the Bible, there should not even be an Iero! In ancient Greece, women got to act as priests in the temples of the gods and so fulfil their spiritual destiny, if that's what their souls yearned for. What choice do women of spiritual bent have in the Orthodox church today? To marry a papa and become a papadia?

I grew up in and respected our church for many years, but when I actually sat down and read the whole Bible myself, it gradually dawned on me that our church is more full of chauvinistic tradition and nationalism than biblical truth. It is a tradition that excludes women and other Christian denominations and sets itself up to be the only right religion, just like Catholicism and Islam. In this sense, the Jews are way beyond us because at least they respect each other's factions (liberal, conservative, Orthodox). It seems it's only the Christians and Moslems that fight and kill each other. Ginomaste rezili kai kala kanei o kosmos pou mas misei!

I believe I have a personal relationship with God and I don't believe God is a male, but both male and female. In this sense, I understand how the ancient Greeks had deities of both sexes. But they still regarded women as inferiors, morally and intellectually, and this has not changed.

Finally, you mentioned freedom and knowledge. Everybody wants to be free, but what do you say to those people who want to be free in a way that harms other people? I'll give you an everyday example. What if one mother doesn't want to have to discipline her kids and would rather visit the beauty salon every day, go out to clubs with friends and party? She's free to do that. But what if her kids grow up without any boundaries and turn into criminals who harm other people? You see, the mother's freedom is society's slavery. Every day we hear of elderly people who feel like prisoners in their homes because they are too afraid to go outside, in case they're mugged or harmed. Most of the kids who do this stuff are on drugs. But the drug dealers want to be free too! Many of them were abused as kids, abandoned, tricked into taking drugs - until they saw a way out: to repeat the pattern and become drug dealers themselves. They don't think they're doing anything wrong because all they can feel is a relief that life for them is better now than it was and it's someone else who has to take the crap for once. And before you say that everybody knows it's wrong to sell drugs, remember that not so long ago homosexuality was thought to be wrong, as was fornication. Today these are accepted and cherished 'freedoms' of the individual. How do we know what we consider wrong today won't be similarly celebrated as a 'freedom' tomorrow? Can you guarantee our society will stay the same?

When you have no absolute, life becomes a meaningless ocean of relativity and chaos reigns.

One thing I've learnt so far is that in life, the person who loves the most, hurts the most. The virtuous suffer and the evil survive. This pattern cannot be broken. People will always be selfish, cruel and perverse. The thing about Christians is that they've accepted this and can live their lives happily, regardless.

Take care file.

Seriously, we may just be food for the entertainment schedule of the gods.

Switch "gods" with "ierateia".

My opinion is that Neo-pagan/Christian antithesis is bullcrap.

To Patriarxeio Ierosolymon pane na mas to kleisoune, kai an to kleisoune tha exei epiptosi arnhtikh se olous toys Ellines.

Thymastai ti egine sthn Alexandreia?

Oi ellines xristianoi i oxi prepei na douleyoume parea, oxi na mas douleyoune gia na ta vazoume metaksy mas.

My opinion is that Neo-pagan/Christian antithesis is bullcrap.

I agree 100000%
Συμφωνω και επαυξανω

Dont forget Agesilaus had to force the delphic oracle by going to dodona first and taking a prediction from Zeus telling him to make the expedition and delphi was going to say no so he asked delphi Does apollo agree with his father Zeus?
They could not refuse and thus attacked persia.Politics and religion ride in the same cart.Aside from this the Dodona priests were more sensitive to the needs of greece than the delphic ones were.Or simply the delphic was bought of like the rest of the greek states that attacked sparta on persian bribes thus betraying greece and forcing agesilaus to return.

Alita,


I agree towards the end of your post, freedom can cause chaos, but you need to understand logic is in place here, we must all controll ouselves, if you compare this beween those who dont you will see the majority is that logic is the winner.
Drugs, Alchohol, Murder, Rape is aprt of our society, we cannot take this away, the day we do is the day we have harmony on earth, this is the goal, you see at the end of the day we cannot just kill the wicked, we cannot just banish them to hell as the church god would because this goes against gods greatest virtue, forgiveness....how can a loving god still turn his children away into hell because he was influenced by society, everyday we imitate art and art imitates life, its a never ending process, we are vegetables infront of TV, we show more faith to a box then we do of the words of our ancestors....the point at the end of the day is the msg was given to us by GREEKS...virtues..who here can say they follow these forever..but yet if we all did think about it...this world would be a better place.

Plato said Good and Evil we must have knowledge of at the same time, one without the other we will never know goodness...therefore we must experience things and from there we take the right path, i, we CHOOSE...a drug addict makes a choice after that first shot if he should walk away, a murderer( not a psychopath) must have the strength to turn himself in if he has a guilty mind...etc Logic plays a good part in this aswell, but only if we have some sort of education on the topic.

At the end of the day we have choice, if this is taken away it makes the mind willing to always commit the wrong, because its curios, it longs to feel it, the "what if".
This in one way or another have all experienced, i thank we have some sort of freedom and will to do things, thus we can seperate wrong from right.Experience is the key to conclusions in life, the man/woman we choose to be for the rest of our lifes, but there lies ahead, another chance to change things, even in the last minute, i would like to think this is who god is, because if we are his creation, then there is some of him in us, therefore he/she is as guilty us as, because being all knowing, would know we can cause great harm, and great goodness....the church thinks otherwise, they say good is pure, i say god is everything, infinity...your mind could melt to try and grasp the purpose of him being....

As for your thoughts on how women were treated in ancient greece, in Sparta in many cases lived higher than a man, or equal.... Virtue and everything thats is good is symbolised by a women Areti Kelsou this can be seen in Celsus Library in Ephesos today in Turkey.

Olympics were held seperate for women aswell.

The only negative thing is they couldnt vote.

Aristotle says the virtues are harmonized:

νοῦς τῶν ἀρχῶν (nous tōn archōn) - understanding of substance,
ἐπιστήμη (epistēmē) - science,
σοφία (sophia) - wisdom,
τέχνη (technē) - practical craft,
φρόνησις (phronēsis) - practical mind)
and ethic (built by custom;
main:
ἀνδρεία (andreia) - courage,
σωφρoσύνη (sōphrosynē) - temperance;
property-based:
ἐλευθεριότης (eleutheriotēs) - generosity,
μεγαλoπρεπεία (megaloprepeia) - goodwilling;
honor-based:
μεγαλoψυχία (megalopsychia) - pride,
φιλoτιμία (philotimia) - assertivity,
πραότης (praotēs) - control of anger;
social:
εὐτραπελία (eutrapelia) - wittiness,
ἀλήθεια (alētheia) - truthfulness,
φιλία (philia) - friendliness;
political:
δικαιoσύνη (dikaiosynē) - justice)

Follow these and we are on the right track...but who does, honestly.

Know Thyself Gnothi safton.

No one actualy knows why this was written on the temple at Delphi, or what it actualy is trying to say, although suggestions have been made.

Perhaps the message is if you look inside yourself you can confront yourself and take the path you must to achieve light, perhaps know god, the purpose of life/universe.... untill you accept who you are you are bound to just being dictated by lifes random curve balls.

Theseus
Perseus
Herakles
Jesus (Isous)

and others have taken mythological journies which have unlocked something about life and death...we must unlock this metaphoric tales, why do we simply call it a story to put your kid in bed with? why do we fear to unlock this side of our ancestors?

Great example Olvie.


I agree towards the end of your post, freedom can cause chaos, but you need to understand logic is in place here, we must all controll ouselves, if you compare this beween those who dont you will see the majority is that logic is the winner.

Ofc Logic, is the winner, and you know what logic tells us?

We are about 20 million Greeks all over the world, at least the 15 million are Christians, the other 5 million is accusing the 15 mil for being Hebrews, traitors, and so on...creating a tension among the greek community unseen before, and for what? For who will hold the ierateia?

Philosophically and theologically the neo-pagan view and the christian view, are much more similar than different. But this is completely beyond the point. The point here is that we should all work together, and there is no doubt whatsoever that our churches in America, Australia, Jerusalem, Konstantinoupolis work for the Greek interests. Now either let them do their job at least in peace with a silent consent or join them, but dont fight them, cause you are only fighting against yourselves.

Freedom is one thing too much freedom is Asydosia "impunity briming with hubris". Its not about religion its about the Genos.

Το Γένος είναι ανώτερο από Θρησκείες είτε είναι χριστιανισμός είτε είναι εθνική θρησκεία. Προδότες και ανθέλληνες είναι αυτοί που προάγουν την διχόνοια προφασιζόμενοι διάφορα θέματα που τελικά ως αποτέλεσμα έχουν να βάλλουν κατά του γένους

The genos is above religions whether its christianity or ethnic religion.Traitors and anthellenes are this that promote discord with such pretexts which final result is to strike against the genos.

Christian religion is a positive religion in the context of the idealized ethical philosophy a person can find in it. Its messianism along with all types of messianism is the element that makes it and all religions tools of politicians or clerics for dominion.Being the most powerfull form of domination communism and fasism follow the structures of religion thus are forms of religion hidden in a political masquerade .Its messianism and utopic path that leads only to one thing.Tyrranical domination of one person to another or others.

The genos must stand above such trivialites. Balance in all things with freedom of choosing the wrong path but having the will to take the path of hercules that ,of arete.Hercules chose and had the prerequisites to do so .So should we even if we never attain a drop of virtue.It is the path we follow that makes us positive beings not mere goals or dreams of a paradise coupled with a dream of hell whether its metaphysical or one of no class societies and
similar "narcotics".

? I hold no faith in paganism or christianity.....i simply expose that what christianity has given us we already had in ancient Greece...what have i done wrong, i have not even once throughout this whole topic said anything against a christian or a pagan? So boys, put your pitch and forks away and go play somewhere else.

I think it great that Greek Christians hold such a faith, good for them, we must al hold on to something, but like we both agree Euklid logic must be in place, dont leave everything in Gods hand now...

It seems to me you think im attacking christians? I pointed out negative actions they have taken and still do, im not attacking the faith relax file, this aint the spanish inquasition we are talking with open minds.

Please dont turn this post into some pagan vs christianity bullshit....you wanna add something, add philosophy not Orthodox e thanatos attitude slander, liek 5 million other Greeks label Orthodox Greeks as jews...rubbish, believe what you want to without offending anyoe euklid, otherwise dont post in my topic. I hold no side other than being Greek, religion has nothing to do with it.

Christian religion is a positive religion in the context of the idealized ethical philosophy a person can find in it. Its messianism along with all types of messianism is the element that makes it and all religions tools of politicians or clerics for dominion.Being the most powerfull form of domination communism and fasism follow the structures of religion thus are forms of religion hidden in a political masquerade .Its messianism and utopic path that leads only to one thing.Tyrranical domination of one person to another or others.

The genos must stand above such trivialites. Balance in all things with freedom of choosing the wrong path but having the will to take the path of hercules that ,of arete.Hercules chose and had the prerequisites to do so .So should we even if we never attain a drop of virtue.It is the path we follow that makes us positive beings not mere goals or dreams of a paradise coupled with a dream of hell whether its metaphysical or one of no class societies and
similar "narcotics".


Well said Olvios, if these are realy your thoughts then you hold more virtues than you know. Well said:)

religion has nothing to do with it.

More convince yourself, that.........kai o logos mou tha "perisseyei".

They are my thoughts and one more thing

Religion in this context is a beautyfull thing nomatter what the religion.
The pagan-christian contest is "created" by former communists turned "pagan" that drag more people in their behavioural path. They use our pagan religion to strike against christianity not because they want to correct it but because they want power from the competition."A grandma running with Carl lewis gets publicity even if she cant walk".The other reason is they are communists even now and dont believe in any GOD in any form or definition.We know the core of some "pagan" groups is exactly this thing.Most people of course just love ancient greek culture.

The core is composed of godless materialists with no trace of scrupulous consciensness on what they do.They lie and deceive to create a troop of servants for their own petty gain and war against the "bad greeks" and they are the "good ones".Communists like stalin and all the other cacodemons albeit of a smaller scale.But still with the same "principles". Lie cheat deceive divide pretend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9dIWOYmtcQ
O noon....noeito.

LOL, me too Olvie...alla opos to eipes to genos, einai pano apola.

H synyparksis einai efikth kai panta itan efikth.

H Xaroula einai allo ena zontano paradeigma oxi mono synyparksis alla kai syngklisis.

And remember the prerequisites of arete. Paideia . Παιδεια .
Αυτο που λειπει.

again i agree with you Olvios, i find it funny how new pagan groups that have risen and are growing in Greece and all over the world think think theyw know what they are doing, its moronic. Our ancestors would be looking down in shame.

Philosophy is my faith, questioning everything i can, if there is no answer there, i look elsewhere....just because im not pagan or orthodox doesnt make me less Greek.

your a pagan? hold on, how can you be? doesnt that make you a neo - pagan?

Paideia is something Greece needs right now.

Our ancestors would be looking down in shame.


For how many things?

For how many things?


Take a pen a paper.

ENVIROMENTAL
POLITICAL
EDUCATIONAL
HUMANITARIAN
PHILOSOPHICAL
PROTECTION OF OUR MOTHERLAND
RESPECT TO OUR FALLEN HEROS

anyone care to add, how bout we stick to topic and not go into areas that have nothing to do with the subject.

On a religious level they would be ashamed aswell, thso who try to practice the worship of our ancioents have a sick ambition to bring back something they cannot comprehend. Anyone can dress in white and lift his hands up and burn incense and bitch about another religion, what makes it so different from the church? You wanna ressurect something? How bout the level of education that country has( Hellas), i hear now day the majority of the people dont even know how to use a computer? The cannnot remember who our heros are, they have no idea what the national anthem means.

There are riots on the streets because kids want education!

Our civilization is describable in one sentence "all excess is excellent" in direct antithesis with our ancestors "all moderation is exellent"

The question is, have we left to much to the church God? I mean we have let go of our control to the point were we are now facing global warming, its as if we want the Revelations to come true, we hunger to see if this day will come when moon turns red locust eat our flesh, dead rise..yada yada....how about actualy taking control of our destiny, how bout reaching for the unknown stars, how about Greece taking the lead again in this time of need, we are the light, i believe that more now than i ever did.

Its up to us to turn things around once again, no one does it like we do.

Στην νομοτελεια του συμπαντος δεν παρεμβαινει ο θεος αλλιως δεν θα ηταν ελευθερος ο ανθρωπος.Η εκλησσια ειναι ενα πολιτικο οργανο που συνυσφερει και θετικα και αρνητικα.Και ως πολιτικο οργανο φθειρεται και διαφθειρεται,φυσικα εχει και εναρετους ανθρωπους αλλα ειναι ελαχιστοι.Πρεπει οντως ο καθε ανθρωπος να κανει αυτο που πρεπει.

Here's another dilemma I've been thinking lately, and not only does it prove the incoherence of the Church Christianity, it also demonstrates the internal contradiction within apologetics.

It has to do with God's pure and holy state that cannot abide the presence of a sinner. He is incapable of forgiving sinners without a meditator, and that is the sacrifice of Isous himself, jayzum kerow, alias Jesus Christ. Jesus' sacrifice was necessary, for otherwise, even one little widdle sin would result the utter annihilation of the sinner in the presence of the Almighty.

But here's the crux of the problem, and consequently the incoherence as well as the illogic of Christianity.

If God's presence results in the destruction of the sinner, because of His inability to abide any sin whatsoever, then it makes no difference whether the sinner accepted Christ or not.

The Church teaches us, traditionally, that we have salvation because jesus was crucified on the cross, and his death satisfies God the judge. However, even if Christ's death fulfilled God's justice, there isn't a requirement of personal belief or acceptance of Jesus Christ.

God the judge demanded a price for sin, and the death of Jesus Christ paid for it. The Christian would insist that this price includes our true repentance as well, but if it is up to us to truly repent, then we are the ones who determine our salvation, not God. God cannot force us to submit to salvation, else he overrules and overrides human free will. That is one prong of the dilemma, and there's another.

Even if the believer "accepts Jesus Christ" in his heart, why doesn't the presence of God obliterate the sinner? It seems like the only remedy is the sinless nature of Jesus Christ (or the Holy Spirit) "indwells" with the believer and acts as a shield. Yet, this solution is fraught with problems: why doesn't this affect free will? If Christ's pure nature is in a person, then the person's free will is overshadowed and rendered mute. As long Christ is in a person, the person cannot sin because s/he no longer has any sinful nature or even the ability to sin. But this is impossible, for there is no christian who won't slip up and sin on occasion.

Now, if God cannot abide sin, and Christ is the only way a person can be in God's presence, how can the Christian sin at all? Furthermore, if the christian does sin, and then dies, what happens to him/her when brought before God?

The concept of God in Christianity is a judge, and must include some sort of sacrifice, but acknowledgment (repentance) is unnecessary.

If God's nature destroys sin, then Jesus Christ cannot be the bridge between God and the sinner unless his nature indwells fully with the believer. But there is no perfect, sinless Christian.

Incidentally, if God's presence blots out sin, then the idea of hell becomes absurdly immoral, for God would have to deliberately maintain the sinner alive in order to torment and punish him eternally. In addition, since there is no hope for rehabilitation in hell, the divine punishment is excessively cruel. Neither God nor the sinner benefits, for the sinner cannot repent, and God is no longer infinitely merciful.

Bottom line: if God's presence erases sin, and the sinner cannot survive in such divine presence unless Jesus Christ's sinless nature dwells in him, but this "indwelling" will obstruct free will, for the believer will not be able to sin, and this is obviously false.

I must admit,im at apoint in my life where im questioning if i have faith or not, and i know i have said many tims my heart is with scinece but this within itself is accepting i believe in something that is made through the will of God, therefore i believe in God because evrything that is, is linked to the one.

Therefore i give myself to agnosticism........and im not ahsamed in anyway, i just accept that i do not know what or who the "higher power" is...unlike other church followers.

I find comfort also knowing that most ancient Greeks have this title, especialy the philosophers, although gnostics was there game card they never actualy accepted the physical GOD/GODS.

Protogoras said:Concerning the gods, I am unable to know either that they exist or that they do not exist or what form they have.

I feel just like him but deosnt mean i dont believe in them/him/her(god)......im just accepting that i cannot understand what the purpose of him/her is.

As i was growing up the Church provided comfort in knowing i can be happy when i pass on and spend time in the presence of God, and tha he would guide me as long as i said my prayers and believed in him and asked for fogiveness.

As i grew and read Plato, Socrates etc...i could not help but see more reason for these people to be asking the questions they did.

And now in the last couple of months i have broken away from the Church's path , and i find myself on a road, a long one, perhaps leading to more darkness, perhaps light, but one thing im certain of, you are all just like me...you have comfort in believing what you do, and that can make a big difference....im not sure if this is valid, but i believe that religion in Greece is probably what has weakened it in many parts of its history, and still continues do so.

I just wish Greeks could move on, and be what they were, free thinkers, explorers, the light. Wishful thinking?

The Orthodox Church and indeed all Christians employ the same people as the Skops;
Propagandists who revise History.

The Bible is no holy document, it has been edited, parts have been omitted and included... so to suit the agenda of the greedy people who wanted power at the time. Greeks didn't choose Orthodoxy, the ones who opposed it from Constatine were massacred. No different to how the Turks spread Islam.
On this premise I can't believe in it; not to mention the Orthodox Church set people out to destroy Ancient Greek monuments.

I personally am not Orthodox, Jesus is but a dead-Jew to me.

The Orthodox Church and indeed all Christians employ the same people as the Skops;
Propagandists who revise History.

The Bible is no holy document, it has been edited, parts have been omitted and included... so to suit the agenda of the greedy people who wanted power at the time. Greeks didn't choose Orthodoxy, the ones who opposed it from Constatine were massacred. No different to how the Turks spread Islam.
On this premise I can't believe in it; not to mention the Orthodox Church set people out to destroy Ancient Greek monuments.

I personally am not Orthodox, Jesus is but a dead-Jew to me.


That is true my friend, but dont fill your heart with hate, rather seek what the truth is. I cannot dubb Jesus just a dead Jew, and as a matter of fact, his personality, his beliefs make him more Greek than a Jew. People just nee dto accept that if he was real, then he must have had more contact with the Greek stoics etc some say he travelled to India...theres little evidence of this.

Overall he shows with his words and actions that he is able to let go of his human side and approach another level, whereby he can do things which we call phenomenal, Zeno who often challenged prohibitions, traditions and customs. Another tenet was the emphasis placed on love for all other beings.

This is a mirror of Jesus's beliefs, the word stoic has come to mean unemotional or indifferent to pain, because Stoic ethics taught freedom from passion by following reason.

And we can see as Jesus was whipped and kicked and spat on he still accpeted his judgement because he knows after the process of death his life continuees the journey, his mother whepped and he rejected her comnpassion , but Stoics did not seek to extinguish emotions, only to avoid emotional troubles by developing clear judgment and inner calm through diligent practice of logic, reflection, and concentration.

That is why he gave himself to teh One if you like on the cross, he accepted.

In Meditations, Marcus Aurelius defines several such practices. For example, in Book II, part 1:

"Say to yourself in the early morning: I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill... I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my kinsman or hate him; for we have come into the world to work together..."

The Church still uses principals os stoics eg:


Save for its appeal to God for serenity, the Serenity Prayer:

God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.
is Stoic in nature.

However a true stoic would have relied on the cultivation of serenity, courage and wisdom through practise and meditation, rather than through the grace of an external agency.

Lakonian,

You talk with the certainty of a scholar, except that your specialisation is the claiming of all worthy things as Greek. Most other Greeks on this forum base their arguments on facts, sources, logic, etc. For example, nearly all of Voulgaroktonos's and Akritas's posts. You seem to appeal to an emotional side: all good things must have had a Greek origin; how could anything good not be Greek?

You appeal to a domestic audience exclusively.

Lakonian,

You talk with the certainty of a scholar, except that your specialisation is the claiming of all worthy things as Greek. Most other Greeks on this forum base their arguments on facts, sources, logic, etc. For example, nearly all of Voulgaroktonos's and Akritas's posts. You seem to appeal to an emotional side: all good things must have had a Greek origin; how could anything good not be Greek?

You appeal to a domestic audience exclusively.

Yep, just like you Jews claim your the chosen children of God, i too have national pride, each to there own eh?

As you can see from greek tactics here Israel fighting amongst eachother is what greeks are best at.

Sorry I'm responding to these things so late, but I was busy and did not check my boards. Guess I didn't expect any reply to my last post.

Euklid, I agree with you wholeheartedly: "We should all work together." If one loves his/her country, they will put it above all other things and make the necessary sacrifices in order to free it. Just like our brave 1821 gentlemen did against the Turkokratia; they didn't listen to the church, to bow the head and be like good little sheep (because they sniffed that the priests were being well looked-after by the rich Turks and had reasons for what they advised). Just look at the Assyrians today: They want to rebuild their nation in Iraq, but there are so many religious factions (Orthodox, Catholic, Assyrian, Chaldean, Syriac and whatever the hell else, as if it makes any difference when it's the same Christ you worship) that their dream is an impossible one. Like I told them once, you need to build a house? First clear the land of brambles (ie the Moslem insurgents). Then show the builder a plan for your house. What's that? You've only got the toilet? Someone else wants to build the living room? Who's got the kitchen? This is not a house! It's a collection of rooms and the arthitects don't even want them sitting next to each other. What kind of house is that? What builder will take you seriously?

This is what we have to do with Greece: build the house. Who cares if the colours of the kitchen and living room and bedrooms don't match. The rooms must be on the same plan and connect to each other. In other words, who cares what your religion is? Are you a Greek? Do you subscribe to Greek ideals? Good! Say your oath and jump on board, the building's just beginning.

Olvios - "to genos einai anotero apw thrhskeies". To the worldy man this is absolutely true. But Christians are not, nor ever have been, world-focused. (The real ones I mean, not today's ierateio). Your heart is where your riches are. Btw, I never knew neo-pagans were ex-comms; where did you get that?

And finally, I come to Lakonian. I read your comments with much relish, for two reasons. Firstly, you seem to have a sound knowledge of the dilemmas raised by serious religious study. Secondly, your questions and concerns are ones I've played out in my own mind countless times, with no real resolution.

But I'll start with your first reply. You mentioned Sparta's freedoms for women. People from other city-states often commented on it. But wasn't this freedom the exception in Greece, rather than the rule? And even in the Olympics, didn't a few sly strings have to be pulled in order for a woman to compete (her horses I believe) in the races? I don't think it was the norm for women to take part in public affairs; they had to organise their own, female-only gatherings, didn't they? And the view that woman is 'pio ierh apo ton andra' is one I've also heard from an Orthodox priest. So then, it is a Greek, not a Christian, nor a pagan, idea, that had survived through the centuries.

This brings me to what you were saying about Greeks regardles of religion. This I fully support. How can anyone say a person born of Greek parents is not Greek, even if they are not Orthodox? A challenge like that is likely to be emotional in nature and not founded on logical thought. I'm with you there.

Thanks for the list of aretes. I enjoyed reading through them and found them quite enlightening. You said something about not finding them in society today. I wonder if they even all existed in abundance even in the times of ancient Greece? Surely they are things we aspire to, even today, but definitely not the everyday norm in human interaction? Our drama plays clearly show us both how good and evil humans could (and can) be. So are you remarking on the seeming absence of these virtues in society today, or on the absence of the praise of these virtues in society today?

You also said, "if (choice) is taken away it makes the mind willing to always commit the wrong." I disagree with you here. I believe it is choice which gives humans the responsibility to do right. An infant, for example, with no knowledge of right or wrong, cannot be held responsible for doing what an adult knows is wrong. If you don't know right from wrong, you may do things others hold to be wrong, but you will not be held accountable for them. That is unfair. This is why we need to educate our children in what is right and what is wrong, very seriously. That brings me to your next point: education. I totally agree with you that education is the key to a happier existence. But it has to be the balsy kind, not the government-controlled, brain-washing kind. We have to be willing to put all the facts at our kids' feet and let them decide, without influencing, with calm and pointed rhetoric, which way they should turn. Without making out anyone to be a villain or hero. Just the facts and they can choose.

Now on your comments about God's mercy. This dilemma that you've outlined, where God gives us free will but chooses certain people who will ultimately choose Him, has a name. It's called irresistible grace. Basically, it means that God has predestined certain people for heaven and makes Himself deliberately known to them in their lifetime. He impresses His grace so surely on their hearts, that they can do nothing else but accept Him. Like showing someone a view of something so perfect and beautiful that they have no qualms in entering into that paradise. It doesn't seem fair, does it? I have had many logical problems with this notion. But God also apparently never turns away anyone who honestly seeks Him. I guess the answer lies in saying that those who He has not called to Him, will not read His word and desire a relationship with Him. Those who do read it, whether or not they have intellectual arguments against Him, will seek Him out and find Him. I have a saying when it comes to heaven. Heaven is like a nightclub: Those who are standing outside the nightclub are always arguing, reasoning, trying to prove their worthiness as nightclub entrants, or otherwise, their ultimate superiority and hence their lack of need to be nightclub entrants. Those inside? They are just too busy partying to care.:clap2:

Finally, on to something more concrete. You say what Christianity teaches, Greece was onto way before. This is true. Many cultures in fact were onto Christian concepts way before. Look up how many ancient civilisations performed sacrifices. This is the central concept of Christianity. The question is, did Christianity copy these practices, or did the people who performed these sacrifices know that the only way to communicate with God (to appease His anger, if you like) was through sacrifice? Why would they know or think this? Perhaps, because it's true? We should allow for that too, don't you think? Look at both sides of the coin?

I believe Greece will lead the way again one day too, as you say. But I think it's a spiritual revolution we should be looking for. Greeks will rediscover their souls. They will "know thyself"/ves. It's the soul that, through its yearning for the higher virtues, all branches of unconditional love, creates beauty on earth. ('Art is feeling, passed through thought and fixed in form.' -Ted Shawn) And in regards to beauty, I agree with you: "No-one does it like we do."

Cheers :)

I never knew neo-pagans were ex-comms; where did you get that?
AAAAAAAhhhh read my posts guys:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: .I am pagan.There is a core group of people in certain groups that are communinsts and atheists that pretend to be pagan.

Sorry I'm responding to these things so late, but I was busy and did not check my boards. Guess I didn't expect any reply to my last post.

Euklid, I agree with you wholeheartedly: "We should all work together." If one loves his/her country, they will put it above all other things and make the necessary sacrifices in order to free it. Just like our brave 1821 gentlemen did against the Turkokratia; they didn't listen to the church, to bow the head and be like good little sheep (because they sniffed that the priests were being well looked-after by the rich Turks and had reasons for what they advised). Just look at the Assyrians today: They want to rebuild their nation in Iraq, but there are so many religious factions (Orthodox, Catholic, Assyrian, Chaldean, Syriac and whatever the hell else, as if it makes any difference when it's the same Christ you worship) that their dream is an impossible one. Like I told them once, you need to build a house? First clear the land of brambles (ie the Moslem insurgents). Then show the builder a plan for your house. What's that? You've only got the toilet? Someone else wants to build the living room? Who's got the kitchen? This is not a house! It's a collection of rooms and the arthitects don't even want them sitting next to each other. What kind of house is that? What builder will take you seriously?

This is what we have to do with Greece: build the house. Who cares if the colours of the kitchen and living room and bedrooms don't match. The rooms must be on the same plan and connect to each other. In other words, who cares what your religion is? Are you a Greek? Do you subscribe to Greek ideals? Good! Say your oath and jump on board, the building's just beginning.

Olvios - "to genos einai anotero apw thrhskeies". To the worldy man this is absolutely true. But Christians are not, nor ever have been, world-focused. (The real ones I mean, not today's ierateio). Your heart is where your riches are. Btw, I never knew neo-pagans were ex-comms; where did you get that?

And finally, I come to Lakonian. I read your comments with much relish, for two reasons. Firstly, you seem to have a sound knowledge of the dilemmas raised by serious religious study. Secondly, your questions and concerns are ones I've played out in my own mind countless times, with no real resolution.

But I'll start with your first reply. You mentioned Sparta's freedoms for women. People from other city-states often commented on it. But wasn't this freedom the exception in Greece, rather than the rule? And even in the Olympics, didn't a few sly strings have to be pulled in order for a woman to compete (her horses I believe) in the races? I don't think it was the norm for women to take part in public affairs; they had to organise their own, female-only gatherings, didn't they? And the view that woman is 'pio ierh apo ton andra' is one I've also heard from an Orthodox priest. So then, it is a Greek, not a Christian, nor a pagan, idea, that had survived through the centuries.

This brings me to what you were saying about Greeks regardles of religion. This I fully support. How can anyone say a person born of Greek parents is not Greek, even if they are not Orthodox? A challenge like that is likely to be emotional in nature and not founded on logical thought. I'm with you there.

Thanks for the list of aretes. I enjoyed reading through them and found them quite enlightening. You said something about not finding them in society today. I wonder if they even all existed in abundance even in the times of ancient Greece? Surely they are things we aspire to, even today, but definitely not the everyday norm in human interaction? Our drama plays clearly show us both how good and evil humans could (and can) be. So are you remarking on the seeming absence of these virtues in society today, or on the absence of the praise of these virtues in society today?

You also said, "if (choice) is taken away it makes the mind willing to always commit the wrong." I disagree with you here. I believe it is choice which gives humans the responsibility to do right. An infant, for example, with no knowledge of right or wrong, cannot be held responsible for doing what an adult knows is wrong. If you don't know right from wrong, you may do things others hold to be wrong, but you will not be held accountable for them. That is unfair. This is why we need to educate our children in what is right and what is wrong, very seriously. That brings me to your next point: education. I totally agree with you that education is the key to a happier existence. But it has to be the balsy kind, not the government-controlled, brain-washing kind. We have to be willing to put all the facts at our kids' feet and let them decide, without influencing, with calm and pointed rhetoric, which way they should turn. Without making out anyone to be a villain or hero. Just the facts and they can choose.

Now on your comments about God's mercy. This dilemma that you've outlined, where God gives us free will but chooses certain people who will ultimately choose Him, has a name. It's called irresistible grace. Basically, it means that God has predestined certain people for heaven and makes Himself deliberately known to them in their lifetime. He impresses His grace so surely on their hearts, that they can do nothing else but accept Him. Like showing someone a view of something so perfect and beautiful that they have no qualms in entering into that paradise. It doesn't seem fair, does it? I have had many logical problems with this notion. But God also apparently never turns away anyone who honestly seeks Him. I guess the answer lies in saying that those who He has not called to Him, will not read His word and desire a relationship with Him. Those who do read it, whether or not they have intellectual arguments against Him, will seek Him out and find Him. I have a saying when it comes to heaven. Heaven is like a nightclub: Those who are standing outside the nightclub are always arguing, reasoning, trying to prove their worthiness as nightclub entrants, or otherwise, their ultimate superiority and hence their lack of need to be nightclub entrants. Those inside? They are just too busy partying to care.:clap2:

Finally, on to something more concrete. You say what Christianity teaches, Greece was onto way before. This is true. Many cultures in fact were onto Christian concepts way before. Look up how many ancient civilisations performed sacrifices. This is the central concept of Christianity. The question is, did Christianity copy these practices, or did the people who performed these sacrifices know that the only way to communicate with God (to appease His anger, if you like) was through sacrifice? Why would they know or think this? Perhaps, because it's true? We should allow for that too, don't you think? Look at both sides of the coin?

I believe Greece will lead the way again one day too, as you say. But I think it's a spiritual revolution we should be looking for. Greeks will rediscover their souls. They will "know thyself"/ves. It's the soul that, through its yearning for the higher virtues, all branches of unconditional love, creates beauty on earth. ('Art is feeling, passed through thought and fixed in form.' -Ted Shawn) And in regards to beauty, I agree with you: "No-one does it like we do."

Cheers :)


ALITA , INCASE YOU HAVENT NOTICED I RECENTLY DECIDED TO STOP POSTING HERE, BUT I SHALL APPROACH YOUR ARGUEMENTS FROM A DIFFERENT VIEW OF MINE.

Is there a God? i know this is an age old question and i it seesm i lead myself back to the same thing, but i'm approaching it from a different point of view.A more extreme point, but only because i choose to challange the Church GOD. Instead of contemplating whether he exists or not (in both weak and strong forms of atheistic arguments), perhaps we can explore the ideas that God may exist but we cannot say he exists because it would be impossible to do so, and by doing so, prove his nonexistence? Bear with me here.

One of the justifications for God is moral, or ethics - as in, without a God, we wouldn't be doing good - or there would be no need to do good. But this raises a few questions, doesn't it?

Firstly, assuming that there is a God, we would do good because we don't want to be punished and be condemned to hell. We want to do good because then, we would enter heaven. This point of view makes it look like doing good is an act of evil in itself - we do good so that we are protected in the future from hell - it sounds rather selfish and defeats the purpose of being honest, kind and good in the first place.

Secondly is that perhaps there is no independent system of ethics? Ethics is subjective, a mere perception that differs from one person to the next. being good to one might be to abstain from premarital sex, but another person would see premarital sex as something normal - not bad or evil. So in other words, we cannot really do good or bad, because the deed, may although seemingly bad initially, have an overall good effect, and vice versa.

Now we can conclude that because of these uncertainties, we cannot be certain whether a God can possibly exist - because as he preaches for us to be good, we will never know what IS good, and what IS bad. Moreover, if we claim to know which deed is good, or which deed is bad, or perhaps even wrote a book (as Wittgenstein had said in his speech on ethics) on the laws of ethics, and the existence of God, the book then would become a higher power than ethics and God. Because the book certifies the existence of God, and certifies which deed is good and bad, the book becomes the ultimate power. This would then make God less "divine"

So back to my starting paragraph, is it possible that we may never possibly know God, and hence will never know whether he exists or not, and claiming that he does, or doesn't, will prove his nonexistence? As in, if we claim that God indeed exists, we have disproved him.

Just a thought of mine that i'm exploring.I mean why would God want to reveal himself? In life or death? Does it not defy his disgust in man eating from the sacred tree(knowledge), why must we wait till death to be judged worthy to enter his nightclub as you say:laugh: .

Alita, you have good moral and spirirtual points. If we met, im preety sure we would talk ourselves to sleep.

As for the free will, free will is totally irrelevant - even though i can reject the payment for my sins, but my rejection cannot affect the payment itself, which has already been made and accepted by God on the behalf of all sinners. Even though i have the free will to jump off the cliff, the law of gravity will still be in effect. If God's perfect nature demanded an absolute payment, then that payment is irrevocable under any circumstance whatsoever.

You insist that God is concerned with our response (choice), rather than the payment itself. However, my free will does not have anything to do with the absolute payment, any more than the jumping off a cliff eliminates free will. If you think God is concerned with our response, our personal actions - repentance and acceptance - then Christ is just a symbol with no atoning power.

Christian doctrine (especilay the Orthodox Church) insists that Christ is required as a payment for sin before the holy and just God, and at the same time, also insists that i must accept this payment in order for it to be effective in preventing my damnation. However, these concepts are incompatible, for if salvation is freely acquired by the grace of God through the sacrifice of Christ, then there is nothing, absolutely nothing i can do to positively or negatively affect that grace. If i can, then my response is elevated above God's sovereignty. Therefore, my acceptance of Christ is irrelevant, if the payment has already been made. However, if my repentance and acceptance is required, then this payment is dependent on my actions, and contradicts the idea that there is nothing i can do to personally satisfy God's justice.

Alita, God exists, i accept a higher power, but it is not what we think it is, our minds are uncapable of accepting what God is, it can seriously drive you insane. Simplifying him or her as a dweller in outer space sitting on a thrown with souls floating around is not enough for me.Nor are the Churches "holy laws".

Chaos as i have discussed with Euklid recently is a good view of what GOD or the ONE is, infinite energy. Constant, it needs no followers.

Pythagoras once said: "God is infinite geometry"

Everflowing,omnipotent , always creating and destroying over and over again.

But what would stop this theory is the Big Bang. This arguement is a challange because we know that the Greek "chaos" ment space, or great emptiness, where all things were contained inside small ball as energy and mass making it finite and not infinite. But then is the Big Bang God? Or the Greek Chaos?

Like ancient Greek LOGOS and Tao teaches, the Infinite that can be named is not the true Infinite.

So here i find myslef again, agnosticos. Man my head hurts.

Alita no im not educated on any field, so what you read of mine is probably garbage, and my mind being spilled on a web page. I was good in english, but my typing skills suck( chaos eh?). I just think alot, so my fiance thinks.

My dearest Lakonian,
Jesus Christ was a normal human being for some and the Son of God for others. While today we enjoy freedom of speech, back then whoever mentioned His name was prosecuted and later on had to be tortured for lack of faith. Therefore all the stories about Him had to go hand by hand in order to be saved. I have heard rather then read, that when the whole crucifixion finished some followers went to Rome and demanded Pilatos removal as he treated Jesus Christ in an unfair way. And Rome did condemned Pontios Pilatos.
But in the story of Saint Logginos who was the only Roman soldier who witnessed the resurrection but did not accept money to cover the event we meet Roman soldiers killing the man just because he said that Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God.
Christianity is a philosophy of life indeed but the God we serve is not someone that you can explain as a mere philosophy. What would Sokratis have said if he had witnessed the miracle of Saint Spyridon at the first Ecumenical Council where the main dispute was the nature of Jesus Christ and the Holly Trinity?
As for those non-believers of the resurrection, a miracle has been going on for centuries now... That of the Holly light, in His Grave, every Easter. Many miracles and many wonderful stories you hear from the hajis that are close and witness personal miracles at that Holly Hour. Still people do not believe. There is no blinder man than the one who does not want to see is my reply to that…
Jesus Christ did not become anything when he resurrected. He was the Son of God and that was what He remained.
Poor Orpheus had a terrible death. According to the myth (am I allowed to say according to the stories?) he was cut to pieces by Thracian women. The symbol of cross existed in ancient Hellas indeed, a visit to the Athens Acropolis museum and a close look at the clothes of the kores will persuade you. However, that has nothing to do with the reason the Romans chose to give deaths to the Jews. Or are you going to claim that Romans gave death to Jews on the cross because that had some connection with Orpheas’s crusifixion an event that is not recorded by any story while they beheaded their own for I do not know what reason you believe they did. The death on the cross is slower and it occurs when you have no power to raise your body and breath and not by bleeding as some people believe. The beheading is faster. The first way to die was worthy of a slave (Jews were considered slaves to Romans) and the latter was a more "noble" way to die worthy of the "glorious" Roman citizens.
Historians in general do not write about people immediately after people died. Let alone about someone who at that time was an ambiguous figure by most people and caused a lot of questions.
As for your call to a Hellene priest or an Orthodox priest I have news to you my dearest friend. Long have gone the days where people were seeking the truth and they had mouths to defend it as Saint Marcus of Efessus did at Ferrara Florence or as our Holly Fathers Saint Basil and Saint John did whose talks with the Arab theologists led to the first Muslim Theological School in Baghdad.
Keep searching for the truth and you will find it as long as you accept that there are things that exist even you do not see them directly and even though your brain does not accept them your feelings do; like the human soul.

What would Sokratis have said if he had witnessed the miracle of Saint Spyridon at the first Ecumenical Council where the main dispute was the nature of Jesus Christ and the Holly Trinity?

If the tomatoes were not as expensive as they are today, my guess is that Socrates would probably use a lot of them for ammo.

AAAAAAAhhhh read my posts guys:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: .I am pagan.There is a core group of people in certain groups that are communinsts and atheists that pretend to be pagan.

We all know that fake people exist everywhere.

The key is to keep yourself pure and not rot.

If you meet these particular guys in Prometheia as i did you ll get the picture.

If you meet these particular guys in Prometheia as i did you ll get the picture.


As Mr Colin Patrick Barth "creator" of teh Promethean concept states himself" you can seem my work as a n allusion to the Communist Manifesto. Hehehe man, anyone who actualy studies philosphy closely, and im not one trust me, can see that his dribble are based on Ancient Greek Aesthetics!

He carries on as if he has turned a new chapter in Philosophy.

Danny Weston who names himself funny enough after a Greek name Darios.


They are simply trying to play on "KNOW THYSELF the big "E"

I must admit though, i want to read more into this.I dont wanna judge it to quick. Olvios, i sent you a PM, are you apart of this group?

Seriously though, im not taking a shot at you guys. Paganism? Why do you even use this term that was labeled by the Church? Ment lower class, farmer etc a term that encompasses the faith traditions outside the Abrahamic monotheistic group of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam?

Juts say your Hellenic.

Below is the address for this Promethean "enlighment".

The Promethean Trilogy I: The Promethean Manifesto (2003): 1. Introduction (http://www.promethea.org/Trilogy/Manifesto/Manifesto_Introduction.html)

Ahaaaaaa, now i kno what your on about Olvios. Prometheia . as in the festival of the neo pagan group Supreme Council of the Ethinikoi Hellenes.

Hmmm, man i hav read there website a few times actualy, about a year ago. They had good arguements against the Church. But still, what are they trying to do? Do they honestly know what they are doing? And i hear more than 50% of the group are from America and England. Barbarian fools.

I must take back my words for the Promethen website, il shall read more into it as i said.I honestly thought i came across what you were reffering to as communist beliefs. Anyways back to my search for what ever it is im searching......"sigh"

If you meet these particular guys in Prometheia as i did you ll get the picture.

Den exw paei pote alla isws paw sto mellon... Leei tipota?

Its nice interesting ,i liked it alot.Go even once if you can to see for yourself.
Apart from what i mentioned above(again i stress that a few people at the core of one group are atheists....) i liked it very much.

Laconian

First of all, sorry I didn't notice you had stopped replying to the thread; that's why I apologised for my late posting at the beginning.

You are right. The mind cannot comprehend what God is. If that were possible, He would not be God, but one of us, or less. This is why Alexander insisted on being worshipped as a god; because he frankly had done more for Greece than all the Olympic gods had. He had outdone Hercules, a demi-god. So why not treat him as a god? He was calling the Greeks on all their former assumptions; he was playing the game. The Greek gods let our people down, so our people rose above them and became god-like themselves, so that we are still praising their achievements today.

But suddenly, a real miracle-worker comes along; the dead rise, the sick are healed. And what happens? Greece becomes Christian! ALL of Greece! 98% of Greece in the 1981 census was Greek Orthodox. Most of the rest were not even Greek. Why do I mention this? Because I honour my ancestors. For me to turn my back on the Christian faith would be to kick dirt in the eyes of my ancestors. These same ancestors, who knew more than I ever will, surpassed the world in wisdom, blinded the earth with wonders and left behind an everlasting cultural and spiritual legacy, ultimately CHOSE CHRIST. To question Christ is therefore to question our ancestors' wisdom. Until Greece has some wonders to show for us today, I will continue to prize those long-dead ancestors of mine more. That, for me, means to honour their memory and to honour their decision. I wasn't there. How can I then judge? How can I say, "They made the wrong decision."? Was I there? Did I witness the miracles? Did I hear the gossip that spread like wildfire? Did I see how many people's lives were changed? How many left Greece steeped in their evil deeds on news of a mysterious Saviour, and came back from Israel with as clean a conscience as newborn babies? How many spoke to St Paul, how many in Macedonia witnessed the apostolic message and how many spoke of these things amongst themselves, without writing any of it down, yet passing it on to their children and grandchildren?

I say all this because I believe Greece had a central role in the spread of Christianity and the faith became part of Greece's glory. Nobody can ever take that away from us. God chose Israel to pass the Law to; nobody can change that fact. Then God chose Greece to pass the healing message of His love to the world through; nobody will ever change that. For Hellenophiles, this is the ultimate. Not just to resemble the divine, but to have a hand in a divine plan for mankind. For me, I think Greece has always had it all, bar one thing: the real God. Then, after Jesus, Greece truly did have it all. And one who has it all and is completely content, has no need to do great and marvellous things anymore. Hence Hellas' stagnation in excellent cultural or scientific achievements in the post-Christian era.

I want to answer to your point about man disproving God. You repeated the dilemma of irresistible grace. The thing is, God is all-powerful, but man has been created like God, with free will. But our evil nature doesn't come from God, but from the moment of original sin, from Satan himself. You said people who do good deeds to end up in heaven are really being evil, because they're doing something out of an ulterior motive. But here is where all of Scripture disagrees with you. If you read the New Testament, it is clearly stated that good deeds do not get a person into heaven. "All our good deeds are as filthy rags" to God, it says. Again, it says somewhere else, "for it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; and that is the gift of God, not of yourselves. Not by works, so that none should boast." (I've forgotten the verse but any online concordance will help you find it). Nobody enters heaven by their good works. People who go to heaven do so only because they have put their faith in Jesus Christ. Forget what the church told you. The church would have us believe that if we don't contribute our salary and line the priest's pockets, we will surely go to hell.

Look through the New Testament and see if you can find any reference to commonly accepted Orthodox practices like:
-holy water
-infant baptism
-confession to a priest
-burning of Judas effigies at Easter
-exaltation of Mary as Queen of Heaven or Mother of God
-mention of Mary as having been conceived miraculously by her parents
-mention of saints as being anything other than Christians being sanctified
-the kneeling before, kissing, or otherwise venerating of religious icons.

In true Greek tradition, our church has let us down. It has watered down the message of salvation. Church is not a place where we can go to be with Jesus and others who love Him. It is a religious junkyard, so full of odd bits and pieces of religious paraphernalia, that we must spend ages trying to sift through in order to find some truth amongst the embellishments. The more time a priest spends talking about this or that saint, the less time he spends talking about Jesus. Yes, the saints are important. But Jesus is more important. Our priests should spend more time teaching us how WE can become saints, instead of holding up the saints as impossible examples that we could never emulate in a thousand years.

Finally, Kuniska was right. What one's mind doesn't tell them about God, one's soul can. Who said we have to know everything? Faith is being comfortable living with mystery. But to answer to your logical debate:

By choosing the path of right we do not make God's sacrifice null and void. God had to sacrifice Jesus. But we also have to accept Him. Both are necessary in order to be saved. Those who God has predestined not to accept Him WILL NOT SEEK HIM. At ALL. They will just not be interested. God will allow them to have very comfortable lives on earth, with everything they desire, because when they die, they won't be going to Him. So He gives them the next best thing and they at least have happiness on earth.

Those who God wants to be with Him in eternity He will come after like a lion pursues a prey. Nobody can outrun God. No matter how clever your mind, how strong your will, you cannot resist the power of God. A saying which sums up my own experience is, "I was dragged, kicking and screaming, into heaven." Why does He do this? For His own glory of course! God's first port of call is to obtain glory for Himself. Read the Bible and you'll see that God desires glory for Himself above all else. Today people marvel at kings like Alexander who hungered for glory, and barely lived 30 years. They glorify these dead heroes for millennia, not even having met them or even understanding their legacies to mankind. But God, who created all, is not glorified at all. Why? Why do people feel a sense of competition when it comes to God? Do you think that by glorifying God less, man will gain greater glory for himself?

I understand where you're coming from Laconian. I will therefore provide you with 2 analogies, which helped me when I struggled with the issue of God's irresistible grace.

1. Imagine someone falling overboard at sea. The waves churn and the person is close to drowning. Suddenly, someone on the boat calls out to him, "Take my hand!" and reaches out his hand to the drowning person. The drowning person then has a choice. He can reach out his hand and be pulled back onto the boat; or he can refuse and drown. Neither of these choices nullify what the person on the boat has attempted to try to rescue the person. And both actions are necessary in order for the drowning person to be saved.

2. Imagine a mother putting her newborn baby to sleep in a room and then going about her work in the house. The baby wakes up and feels hungry. The baby then has a choice. He can lie there and listen to his little stomach rumbling, or he can open his mouth and howl for his mother. The mother at all times has the ability to help her baby and ease his discomfort, BUT - the baby must initiate the helping process. Again, both the mother's presence and they crying are necessary for the baby to be helped.

Now, can either the drowning man or the baby say to the people who helped them, "I helped myself; you had nothing to do with it."? Of course not! In the same way, when a person is saved, they can't say to God, "I chose to be saved; You had nothing to do with my decision." The fact is that God had everything to do with the decision. He made the person aware of their sin, and then He brought the solution to that person and then He gave that person the courage to repent and put their faith in Jesus. And a saved person, believe me - I've met many of them and not one has disappointed me in this respect - will never fail to give God the glory for their salvation.

This is what I know. About what I don't know, I won't speak. I know that you just have to do what is right. What is that? It is the thing that makes your soul feel happy afterwards, rather than sad. You just have to do the best you can with the knowledge that you have at the time. Nobody can expect more from any of us than that.

Laconian, you're a seeker. That, in my opinion, is the best thing a person can be. If you hold onto that, there's no limit to what you could do, for yourself, your country or mankind.

Peace friend.

Laconian

First of all, sorry I didn't notice you had stopped replying to the thread; that's why I apologised for my late posting at the beginning.

You are right. The mind cannot comprehend what God is. If that were possible, He would not be God, but one of us, or less. This is why Alexander insisted on being worshipped as a god; because he frankly had done more for Greece than all the Olympic gods had. He had outdone Hercules, a demi-god. So why not treat him as a god? He was calling the Greeks on all their former assumptions; he was playing the game. The Greek gods let our people down, so our people rose above them and became god-like themselves, so that we are still praising their achievements today.

But suddenly, a real miracle-worker comes along; the dead rise, the sick are healed. And what happens? Greece becomes Christian! ALL of Greece! 98% of Greece in the 1981 census was Greek Orthodox. Most of the rest were not even Greek. Why do I mention this? Because I honour my ancestors. For me to turn my back on the Christian faith would be to kick dirt in the eyes of my ancestors. These same ancestors, who knew more than I ever will, surpassed the world in wisdom, blinded the earth with wonders and left behind an everlasting cultural and spiritual legacy, ultimately CHOSE CHRIST. To question Christ is therefore to question our ancestors' wisdom. Until Greece has some wonders to show for us today, I will continue to prize those long-dead ancestors of mine more. That, for me, means to honour their memory and to honour their decision. I wasn't there. How can I then judge? How can I say, "They made the wrong decision."? Was I there? Did I witness the miracles? Did I hear the gossip that spread like wildfire? Did I see how many people's lives were changed? How many left Greece steeped in their evil deeds on news of a mysterious Saviour, and came back from Israel with as clean a conscience as newborn babies? How many spoke to St Paul, how many in Macedonia witnessed the apostolic message and how many spoke of these things amongst themselves, without writing any of it down, yet passing it on to their children and grandchildren?

I say all this because I believe Greece had a central role in the spread of Christianity and the faith became part of Greece's glory. Nobody can ever take that away from us. God chose Israel to pass the Law to; nobody can change that fact. Then God chose Greece to pass the healing message of His love to the world through; nobody will ever change that. For Hellenophiles, this is the ultimate. Not just to resemble the divine, but to have a hand in a divine plan for mankind. For me, I think Greece has always had it all, bar one thing: the real God. Then, after Jesus, Greece truly did have it all. And one who has it all and is completely content, has no need to do great and marvellous things anymore. Hence Hellas' stagnation in excellent cultural or scientific achievements in the post-Christian era.

I want to answer to your point about man disproving God. You repeated the dilemma of irresistible grace. The thing is, God is all-powerful, but man has been created like God, with free will. But our evil nature doesn't come from God, but from the moment of original sin, from Satan himself. You said people who do good deeds to end up in heaven are really being evil, because they're doing something out of an ulterior motive. But here is where all of Scripture disagrees with you. If you read the New Testament, it is clearly stated that good deeds do not get a person into heaven. "All our good deeds are as filthy rags" to God, it says. Again, it says somewhere else, "for it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; and that is the gift of God, not of yourselves. Not by works, so that none should boast." (I've forgotten the verse but any online concordance will help you find it). Nobody enters heaven by their good works. People who go to heaven do so only because they have put their faith in Jesus Christ. Forget what the church told you. The church would have us believe that if we don't contribute our salary and line the priest's pockets, we will surely go to hell.

Look through the New Testament and see if you can find any reference to commonly accepted Orthodox practices like:
-holy water
-infant baptism
-confession to a priest
-burning of Judas effigies at Easter
-exaltation of Mary as Queen of Heaven or Mother of God
-mention of Mary as having been conceived miraculously by her parents
-mention of saints as being anything other than Christians being sanctified
-the kneeling before, kissing, or otherwise venerating of religious icons.

In true Greek tradition, our church has let us down. It has watered down the message of salvation. Church is not a place where we can go to be with Jesus and others who love Him. It is a religious junkyard, so full of odd bits and pieces of religious paraphernalia, that we must spend ages trying to sift through in order to find some truth amongst the embellishments. The more time a priest spends talking about this or that saint, the less time he spends talking about Jesus. Yes, the saints are important. But Jesus is more important. Our priests should spend more time teaching us how WE can become saints, instead of holding up the saints as impossible examples that we could never emulate in a thousand years.

Finally, Kuniska was right. What one's mind doesn't tell them about God, one's soul can. Who said we have to know everything? Faith is being comfortable living with mystery. But to answer to your logical debate:

By choosing the path of right we do not make God's sacrifice null and void. God had to sacrifice Jesus. But we also have to accept Him. Both are necessary in order to be saved. Those who God has predestined not to accept Him WILL NOT SEEK HIM. At ALL. They will just not be interested. God will allow them to have very comfortable lives on earth, with everything they desire, because when they die, they won't be going to Him. So He gives them the next best thing and they at least have happiness on earth.

Those who God wants to be with Him in eternity He will come after like a lion pursues a prey. Nobody can outrun God. No matter how clever your mind, how strong your will, you cannot resist the power of God. A saying which sums up my own experience is, "I was dragged, kicking and screaming, into heaven." Why does He do this? For His own glory of course! God's first port of call is to obtain glory for Himself. Read the Bible and you'll see that God desires glory for Himself above all else. Today people marvel at kings like Alexander who hungered for glory, and barely lived 30 years. They glorify these dead heroes for millennia, not even having met them or even understanding their legacies to mankind. But God, who created all, is not glorified at all. Why? Why do people feel a sense of competition when it comes to God? Do you think that by glorifying God less, man will gain greater glory for himself?

I understand where you're coming from Laconian. I will therefore provide you with 2 analogies, which helped me when I struggled with the issue of God's irresistible grace.

1. Imagine someone falling overboard at sea. The waves churn and the person is close to drowning. Suddenly, someone on the boat calls out to him, "Take my hand!" and reaches out his hand to the drowning person. The drowning person then has a choice. He can reach out his hand and be pulled back onto the boat; or he can refuse and drown. Neither of these choices nullify what the person on the boat has attempted to try to rescue the person. And both actions are necessary in order for the drowning person to be saved.

2. Imagine a mother putting her newborn baby to sleep in a room and then going about her work in the house. The baby wakes up and feels hungry. The baby then has a choice. He can lie there and listen to his little stomach rumbling, or he can open his mouth and howl for his mother. The mother at all times has the ability to help her baby and ease his discomfort, BUT - the baby must initiate the helping process. Again, both the mother's presence and they crying are necessary for the baby to be helped.

Now, can either the drowning man or the baby say to the people who helped them, "I helped myself; you had nothing to do with it."? Of course not! In the same way, when a person is saved, they can't say to God, "I chose to be saved; You had nothing to do with my decision." The fact is that God had everything to do with the decision. He made the person aware of their sin, and then He brought the solution to that person and then He gave that person the courage to repent and put their faith in Jesus. And a saved person, believe me - I've met many of them and not one has disappointed me in this respect - will never fail to give God the glory for their salvation.

This is what I know. About what I don't know, I won't speak. I know that you just have to do what is right. What is that? It is the thing that makes your soul feel happy afterwards, rather than sad. You just have to do the best you can with the knowledge that you have at the time. Nobody can expect more from any of us than that.

Laconian, you're a seeker. That, in my opinion, is the best thing a person can be. If you hold onto that, there's no limit to what you could do, for yourself, your country or mankind.

Peace friend.

Alita,

thank you for your reply. Well said. I cannot challenge the notion of Christ, how can i? As much as agnostic person as i may be, i still have faith in goodness, and who can say Christ was anything less? Still though, the question begs, purpose, cause and affect.

His message was voided, Greece and many other countrys had achieved more than just knowledge of things.

Let me put it to you this way, when did Socrates and Isous pop up in the pcture? Both in a time of need, a time of a revolution.

Socrates in the middle of a war torn Greece, and same for Jesus in Israel.

Both carrying the same massege, i wont go into detail , i think you should read them. Obvioulsy more on socrates as you already have sound knowledge on Jesus.

You say that if i reject Christ, then i reject what my ancestors chose to believe...i can tell you now choice had very little to do with it.

The struggle of Christianity was evident for hundreds of years after Christ rose to the heavens. This can be seen on many texts and even on the biggest Christian influencer Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus, or as we say Agios Constantinos. I can only say because i have read alot on his politics, that he was doing nothing more than trying to unify the torn Republic.East and West.

At his death bed i could see the bishops snarrling at eachother as to how they could go about as completely removing the pagan system from Rome.Hmm lets baptise him!

There is a flip coin to this, we have Nero, an obvios mad man who only saw himself as a GOD,. Nowhere do we have evidence though his disgusting acts being carried out because they were Christians, ist only because Christians never accepted him as a GOD. It had nothing to do with them not being pagan.He was psychotic. A Hitler in ancient times.

Let me draw your attention to a specific persecution since you did raise the question of women liberty in ancient Greece.Do you know a Hypatia of Alexandria (in Egypt)? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Hypati