Are you disciples of Athens or Jerusalem

[Vasiliye]

Greece has the most illustrious philosophical past and its religion and mythology made a complex of ideas of greatest impact for the civilization.Ancient Greece was a society reach in thoughts, symbolism, exegesis.It was society of free human spirit, in pursuit of cosmic truth.

Yet for more than 17 centuries, Greeks are Christians, Orthodox Christians to be more precise and probably the most pious of them.Orthodoxy, with heavenly Jerusalem as a symbol of the Triumphant Church is another ideal, for which philosophy is something human, erroneus, speculative, worldly vis-a-vis the fulness of rvelation in Jesus Christ.

How do you Greeks manage to balance between these two stages of your culture with regards to sentiments and attachments to a particular stage of your national thought?

[Euklid]

You cannot be a christian, without embodying the Holy Trinity. (Hellenism)

You can be a christian, without mimicing its teleology.

-Kontakos G.

Popular ancient exegesis, narration and myth co-exist.

[olvios]

The moral philosophy of religion is what matters to greeks not its messianism.So all the cosmic elements go out and the core of being good remains.Church priests its world theory all go out.Most Greeks have their own personal version of christianity.

[Tsontos]

oh boy :lol: wait till eheltaios sees this thread it willl become 12 pages long.. :p

There was a stage in my development when I didnt want to hear about anything Byzantine because of its adverse effect on ancient Hellenism but as Ive read on the Byzantine periods Ive become satisfied with a balance. simplifications in this debate is what makes it pointless in my view.

[Ehetlaios]

oh boy :lol: wait till ehetlaios sees this thread it willl become 12 pages long.. :p


Sorry for taking my time to reply :P

I could write 12 pages. But I will write something laconic.

ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΕΚ ΦΥΣΕΩΣ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΟΙ ΚΑΙ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΕΤΟΙΜΟΙ ΝΑ ΘΥΣΙΑΣΟΥΝ ΑΚΟΜΗ ΚΑΙ ΤΗΝ ΖΩΗ ΤΟΥΣ ΔΙΑ ΝΑ ΔΙΑΤΗΡΗΣΟΥΝ ΤΗΝ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΑ ΤΟΥΣ. ΟΙ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΙ ΕΚ ΦΥΣΕΩΣ ΚΑΙ ΕΚ ΔΟΓΜΑΤΟΣ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΑΝΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΟΙ, ΕΦ' ΟΣΟΝ ΔΙΑ ΝΑ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΙ ΑΠΟΔΕΧΟΝΤΑΙ ΝΑ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΔΟΥΛΟΙ ΤΟΥ ΚΥΡΙΟΥ (ΙΔΙΟΚΤΗΤΗ) ΤΟΥΣ. ΟΘΕΝ ΣΥΝΑΓΕΤΑΙ, ΟΤΙ ΕΦ' ΟΣΟΝ ΔΕΝ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΔΥΝΑΤΟΝ ΚΑΠΟΙΟΣ ΝΑ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΤΑΥΤΟΧΡΟΝΩΣ ΚΑΙ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΟΥΛΟΣ, ΔΕΝ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΔΥΝΑΤΟΝ ΚΑΠΟΙΟΣ ΝΑ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΤΑΥΤΟΧΡΟΝΩΣ ΚΑΙ ΕΛΛΗΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΣ. ΑΡΑ ΟΙ ΟΡΟΙ "ΕΛΛΗΝΟΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΟΣ" ΚΑΙ "ΕΛΛΗΝΟΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΙΣΜΟΣ" ΕΙΝΑΙ ΑΤΟΠΟΙ. ΑΡΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΙΣΜΟΣ = ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΟΔΟΥΛΕΙΑ = ΑΤΟΠΟΝ = ΠΑΡΑΝΟΙΑ.

"The Hellenes by their nature are free and ready to sacrifice even their lives for their freedom. The christians by their nature and their dogma are not free, since in order to be christian, you must be a slave to their lord (owner). From the above it's understandable that it is not possible for someone to be both Hellene and christian. Thus, the word "Hellenochristian" and "Hellenochristianity" are oxymore. So, Hellenochristianity = Enslaved Freedom = Oxymore = Paranoia.

[Tsontos]

I dont think thats what they meant when they said "Christianity was the religion of the poor downtrodden and enslaved" ;)

[Ehetlaios]

How do you Greeks manage to balance between these two stages of your culture with regards to sentiments and attachments to a particular stage of your national thought?

Do we manage to balance? This fight has been going on for centuries friend. At every time of Hellenic century, even during the Byzantine years someone (mostly a pagan or a non-christian) would do something to wake the masses but the ones who controlled the masses managed to supress every voice of difference.

The term "Hellenochristianity" was invented some time in the late 19th century when some (christian) people who were historians, priests and all kinds of things, understood what you understood and asked the same question.

They then started a vicious attempt to unite both things (ancient Hellenism and christianity) and create something that would appeal to the people back then. Those were turbulent times so a strong nationalistic idea was found in Hellenochristianity.

In my opinion, that is the reason why we have changed so much today (spiritually) and the thing that shaped modern Greece to what it is today.

Something that made me understand what kind of schzophrenia Hellenochristianity is and will probably help you too:

A couple of weeks ago, before the orthodox easter, Adonis Georgiades (politician, teacher, historian, archaeologist and a bit of everything) who hosts a tv show with his brother, was selling copies of the Evangelia of the christian church. In order to sell the copies or out of arrogance he spoke the following words:

"The week that will come before us in a few days is another Easter. And we, like Hellenes, should go to the church daily with the evangelia in our hand, read what the priests chant and understand the sacrifice of our lord."

I did not expect anything different from Adonis. But at the start of this week, while selling a book about fort Rupel (which is in the Greek-Bulgarian border and it's where the deadliest battles took place during the German invasion back in WW2) he was reading some of the heroic deeds the Greek soldiers did.
And he says:

"Imagine these soldiers, these heroes, in the Elysian Fields where the great heroes of our race go after death. Hercules, Theseus, Alexandros, Leonidas, Miltiades, the Rupel warriors, all look down on us. And of course at this point of our history they are ashamed of us."

Correction Adonis: They are ashamed of you, of people like you and your schizophrenic ideas who try to merge the Hellenic spirit with the christian one. Congratulations.

Adonis Georgiades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis_Georgiades)

[Ehetlaios]

I dont think thats what they meant when they said "Christianity was the religion of the poor downtrodden and enslaved" ;)

And christianity says "Blessed are the poor in spirit".

[Ehetlaios]

The moral philosophy of religion is what matters to greeks not its messianism.

Partly true. Healthy Greeks understand it. But there are also those who do not feel Greeks, they believe they belong in the christian "race" and wait for their messiah every day that passes.


Most Greeks have their own personal version of christianity.

Partly true as well. Healthy Greeks do. There are also the ones who stick to the dogma.

By healthy Greeks I mean those who have a good level of knowledge.

[olvios]

Even greeks that say they are "christian" they end up acting as a Hellene not a christian. Our mindset or nootropia is hellenic all the way.

[Israel]

Even greeks that say they are "christian" they end up acting as a Hellene not a christian. Our mindset or nootropia is hellenic all the way.

How exactly does one "act like a Hellene"? Do people in Greece act differently from those of other countries?

Are people not largely products of their environment? Or is there a "Hellene-gene" I was unaware of?

Past achievments of Ancient Greece are to be applauded and respected, but defining yourselves today exclusively from this past is wrong. You cannot wipe away 2000 years of your Christian history, all that happened during that time, and blame it on unscrupulous rulers.

[olvios]

I dont mean geneticaly but there is this social "corruption" of christianity exhibited by many modern greeks.We like to call it hellenic but its a euphimism.We just try to justify it by saying its greek type behaviour when its just the changes part of the modern world .

[olvios]

Christianity is seen with a different view now in the broader european context but because its such an integral part of greek identity the changes to it are attributed to another part of our identity , that is hellenism.So people will feel safe from the change in the view of christianity along with their modern european identity if they link it with hellenism.So its just like an oedippus complex(in a wider social sense along with its personal) having to do with religion or culture the way the mix and interact.So the question would be who do you love more your mum or your dad? Both the kid says but mummy gives me sweets.

[Euklid]

How exactly does one "act like a Hellene"? Do people in Greece act differently from those of other countries?

Are people not largely products of their environment? Or is there a "Hellene-gene" I was unaware of?

Past achievments of Ancient Greece are to be applauded and respected, but defining yourselves today exclusively from this past is wrong. You cannot wipe away 2000 years of your Christian history, all that happened during that time, and blame it on unscrupulous rulers.


You cannot be a christian, without embodying the Holy Trinity. (Hellenism)

You can be a christian, without mimicing its teleology.

-Kontakos G.

Popular ancient exegesis, narration and myth co-exist.


The primary principles of Hellenism and Christianity are identical through the incorporation of Platonic Principles(Holy trinity-Body, Mind, Soul) Only the Christians from the Abrahamic Traditions adhere to these principles, not the Jews neither the Muslims.

Secondary principles have remained part Jewish like the Old Testament History of the Jewish nation. Secondary, not primary.

[Israel]

The changing modern world is the changing Greek world as well.

Greece is what it is today, not what it was yesterday. The same thing goes for every country. To give an example: the Israel of ancient times is not the Israel of today, neither are the people. We are essentially a mixed people despite having common ancestry. My parents and grandparents spoke Arabic, whereas my neighbours parents and grandparents spoke German. A few suburbs away the parents, grandparents, and even children still speak Russian. We are still Israelis though. That history is ours.

Same with Greeks. Previously you were Athenians, Spartans, whatever; but today Greece, and Greeks, are an amalgamation of Ancient, Medieval, and Modern history. You are not Ancient Greeks who have been led astray in Medieval and Modern times. Yet you are still Greeks, and that history is yours. Do you get my point?

In both cases the past is past.

Regards.

[olvios]

Yeah when i say hellenism i dont just mean the ancients i mean the amalgamation you write of. Again i didnt mean geneticaly its social i am just trying to show the relationship of christianity with the changes in our society today and our view on it.I for example embrace the ethical philosophy but i am dissmisive in the view of its messianism or any messianism for that matter.

[Israel]

Yeah when i say hellenism i dont just mean the ancients i mean the amalgamation you write of. Again i didnt mean geneticaly its social i am just trying to show the relationship of christianity with the changes in our society today and our view on it.I for example embrace the ethical philosophy but i am dissmisive in the view of its messianism or any messianism for that matter.

Understood. :)

[Istor]

Christianity was natural evolution of ancient Greek religion and Civilization.

The idea of ONE god is within Greek dodecatheon where Zeus was "father of gods and peoples". Macedonians invented the notion of "one god upon all others" for political reasons and called him as "Hypsistos". His statue was recently unearthed in Dion. After Christianity's domination we simply called those lesser gods as saints and we continued to kowtow them under different names but in the same places and for the same reasons. See Iera Odos in Athens.

The idea to built a society upon love is the core of Epicourian philosophy. All other Christian ideas were older in Greek religion but not as crucial points.

Greeks resisted to Christianity until 4c because of ignorance by both sides. At that time Father's of Church made a good job by pointing the evolution.

"act like a Hellene"
To equalize all peoples to the best one is as fascist as to equalize them to the worst one. We do differ, not because of our DNA, but because of education:

What do different peoples add to the words: "work, work and then ....."

a Greek would say "symposion"

[Ehetlaios]

Christianity was natural evolution of ancient Greek religion and Civilization.


The greatest lie.

[Ehetlaios]

The idea of ONE god is within Greek dodecatheon where Zeus was "father of gods and peoples". Macedonians invented the notion of "one god upon all others" for political reasons and called him as "Hypsistos". His statue was recently unearthed in Dion. After Christianity's domination we simply called those lesser gods as saints and we continued to kowtow them under different names but in the same places and for the same reasons. See Iera Odos in Athens.


Istor, I was not gonna talk about everything but I just couldn't let this go unnoticed.

The plurality that existed in the ancient Hellenic time does not mean that we can steal what we want to justify our modern standards, and forget everything else.

Just because Plato uses the word "Demiourgos" (creator) and speaks of a higher power in Timaios, does not give the right to christians to call him "the first christian before christ". Isn't it hypocritical to choose Plato and forget every other Philosopher/Historian who also wrote their opinions on the creation of the world, such as Hesiod?


Greeks resisted to Christianity until 4c because of ignorance by both sides. At that time Father's of Church made a good job by pointing the evolution.


Sorry to say it but you're clearly misinformed.

http://www.davlos.gr/pdf/20797.pdf

[Mygdonia]

The Greek peoples thirst to acquire knowledge has been slaughtered on the alter of utopian dogmatism. From the time Greeks were barbarically converted to christianity and adopted an organised religion, everything went downhill.

[Ehetlaios]

The Greek peoples thirst to acquire knowledge has been slaughtered on the alter of utopian dogmatism. From the time Greeks were barbarically converted to christianity and adopted an organised religion, everything went downhill.

I agree 100%

A Greek can do the most spectacular things when he is FREE.

Or when he believes that what he'll do will result to him being FREE.

Why have we fought for these past millenia if not for our FREEDOM? If not for our desire not to be consumed by the eastern dogmatism, tyranny, barbarism?

"It is normal for the Hellenes to rule over the barbarians..."
Aristotle

[Slayer]

Understood. :)


Hi Israel

If you don't mind me asking, I assume it was you who ventured to a well know forum to us guys here.

Do you mind if I ask what you made of that experience positive/negative if that was you?

Thanks

[Lakonian]

How exactly does one "act like a Hellene"? Do people in Greece act differently from those of other countries?

Are people not largely products of their environment? Or is there a "Hellene-gene" I was unaware of?

Past achievments of Ancient Greece are to be applauded and respected, but defining yourselves today exclusively from this past is wrong. You cannot wipe away 2000 years of your Christian history, all that happened during that time, and blame it on unscrupulous rulers.

No we or i blame it on Jewish and Roman Christian fanatics. You see, theres a problem when a nation such as yours (the jews) have a celebration called the Hanukkah, which basically is a celebration of slaughtering Greeks who lived there quitely without any hassles. Jews such as Rabbi Ahron Lopiansky, who has expresed his negative feelings towards Greece more than once , and Israeli-American rabbi and politician Meir Kahane has also joined on the stomping. Herny Kissinger anyone?

Greeks Disciples of Jerusalem? If Heracletus was here he would say thats like water mixing with oil, it cant happen. Stir it hard enough though and you can convince them.

[Ehetlaios]

There's this cool quote Bush said last Hannukah about the civilized Jews in Jerusalem and how the barbarous Greeks oppressed them that's quite hilarious. I'll find it and post it tomorrow.

[Israel]

Hi Israel

If you don't mind me asking, I assume it was you who ventured to a well know forum to us guys here.

Do you mind if I ask what you made of that experience positive/negative if that was you?

Thanks

I found the link to this site while looking around the Balkanium.com site. One of the members there, who I think is Akritas here, had the link in his signiature. As I was interested in the Macedonian question then, I took the opportunity to get the Greek side of the debate: I registered here.

This site is full of sourced information, which I like, and there is good flow of discussion. Obviously it is a one-sided flow but that is to be expected. I feel I have learned alot by being here, so, to answer your question, my experience here has been positive.

Lakonian,

The Chanukhah celebration has nothing to do with the slaughtering of Greeks. From a historical viewpoint, the Maccabean revolt was an uprising against Greek oppression, murder and religious desicration. The Chanukhah itself commemorates the "burning of the oil" in the Temple. The story goes that when the Greek ruler of the Temple was overthrown - the Temple rededicated to God - and the oil was burned to light the "menorah" (I don't know the English translation) there was sufficient oil for one day of burning. However, the menorah burned for eight days. Hence the celebration. It has nothing to do with the "slaughter of Greeks" as you say.

[Ehetlaios]

George Bush:

"More than two thousand years ago, the Hebrews were oppressed and were banned from reading the Torah, praying to their god and practising their customs. With Judas the Macabee as their leader, they attacked the barbarous oppressor and restored their faith. Me and Laura wish you all a Happy Hannukah."

That's what he said, more or less.

[Lakonian]

I found the link to this site while looking around the Balkanium.com site. One of the members there, who I think is Akritas here, had the link in his signiature. As I was interested in the Macedonian question then, I took the opportunity to get the Greek side of the debate: I registered here.

This site is full of sourced information, which I like, and there is good flow of discussion. Obviously it is a one-sided flow but that is to be expected. I feel I have learned alot by being here, so, to answer your question, my experience here has been positive.

Lakonian,

The Chanukhah celebration has nothing to do with the slaughtering of Greeks. From a historical viewpoint, the Maccabean revolt was an uprising against Greek oppression, murder and religious desicration. The Chanukhah itself commemorates the "burning of the oil" in the Temple. The story goes that when the Greek ruler of the Temple was overthrown - the Temple rededicated to God - and the oil was burned to light the "menorah" (I don't know the English translation) there was sufficient oil for one day of burning. However, the menorah burned for eight days. Hence the celebration. It has nothing to do with the "slaughter of Greeks" as you say.

Your book of books slanders my nation time and time again. From religious point and social. Lets not get into this as it stirs emotions, i respect your view , respect mine

[Israel]

Your book of books slanders my nation time and time again. From religious point and social. Lets not get into this as it stirs emotions, i respect your view , respect mine

I was explaining the meaning behind Chanukhah. I have no problem with your view.

[Tsontos]

George Bush:

"More than two thousand years ago, the Hebrews were oppressed and were banned from reading the Torah, praying to their god and practising their customs. With Judas the Macabee as their leader, they attacked the barbarous oppressor and restored their faith. Me and Laura wish you all a Happy Hannukah."

That's what he said, more or less.

He, like every american president on Greek independence day dribbled on about the Greek revolution. the guy cant even read, why does this quote matter at all?

[Ehetlaios]

He, like every american president on Greek independence day dribbled on about the Greek revolution. the guy cant even read, why does this quote matter at all?

Because it's a stupid quote by a stupid man who rules a stupid country and many stupid people believe what this stupid man says.

[akritas]

Because it's a stupid quote by a stupid man who rules a stupid country and many stupid people believe what this stupid man says.

Ehetlaios you banned for one week because your repeated offensive and insult quote and you disregarded my warning.

You can see the reason in

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/forum-announcements/2230-temporary-banning-ehetlaios.html

[Slayer]

I found the link to this site while looking around the Balkanium.com site. One of the members there, who I think is Akritas here, had the link in his signiature. As I was interested in the Macedonian question then, I took the opportunity to get the Greek side of the debate: I registered here.

This site is full of sourced information, which I like, and there is good flow of discussion. Obviously it is a one-sided flow but that is to be expected. I feel I have learned alot by being here, so, to answer your question, my experience here has been positive.



Thanks mate especialy for the kind words for this site.

I probably should have been clearer ,I meant if that was you on maknews what were your thoughts of your experience on that site?

Cheers

[Slayer]

Ehetlaios you banned for one week because your repeated offensive and insult quote and you disregarded my warning.

You can see the reason in

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/forum-announcements/2230-temporary-banning-ehetlaios.html

I understand your reasons for banning him but don't you think it's a bit harsh considering many other could have been banned for exactly the same reasons?

[Lakonian]

Akritas , i think your decision is abit harsh. If you dont unban him il resign from this forum and join one that doesnt dictate what people say.

Different if the guy was swearing or making racial slurs.

The decision is yours my friend.

[akritas]

Slayer and Lakonian the "stupid people" are and the 3 mil Greek Americans ?

Guys insults against countries or theirs people are not tolerate. You can say anything that you want but in civilize manner.

[Slayer]

Akritas

He directed his comment to George Bush, and metaphoricaly to the American nation, I don't think he meant to insult a whole nation or all it's people nor the 1-2 million Greek Americans, have I missed something here?

[akritas]

Akritas

He directed his comment to George Bush, and metaphoricaly to the American nation, I don't think he meant to insult a whole nation or all it's people nor the 1-2 million Greek Americans, have I missed something here?
I dont think so his comment was metphorically. Anyway issue close and its better to return in the thread.

[Lakonian]

No matter what you percieved it as Akritas, he is Greek, and you as a moderator know that Greeks are what make up this forum, if not let me know and il go join Greek City where its a farm. The man has posted some good topics and has good knowledge. He was stating his view, and you a Greek have now taken his ability to continue to do that.

I understand there other on here who view posts and they might find that offensive, but come on...e are taliking aout Bush, who is the key to the damage that so fa has been inflicted on teh MAcedonian topic.

I think you have over ruled this one,.

Anyways, as you say...back to the topic. I defend that Hellas is pure of Jewish influence other than Romans being influeneced and then forcing the swords upon us to do the same.

[Israel]

Thanks mate especialy for the kind words for this site.

I probably should have been clearer ,I meant if that was you on maknews what were your thoughts of your experience on that site?

Cheers

I have not been very active on the Maknews site; however, I think it is also good. The number of native RoM/FYRoM posters is not as high as diaspora people, but that is similar here. It provides some sourced historical info and a good discussion forum even though I do not agree with some members' opinions regarding things like Slavic migration and Ancient Macedonia.

[Euklid]

Guys first of all, i have to say that i m displeased for the ban of Ehetlaios. And i want him to come back as soon as possible.

Secondly, i have stretched a lot of times, as have others, that nationalistic coronas we should keep them in moderation.

You take everything very personally, and it is bad because this forum has a lot of readers and good content and it is shame for the image of the forum.

Hence every time one goes all nationalistic, one will always find me for that matter disagreeing. Do not take it personal guys, it is simply only just business.(reffering to the past racism thread)

I have said so in the past, and i hope i will not have to say it again.

We need to keep it politically correct.

As for Ehetlaios i hope that he comes back soon, he is one of us, even though we cannot agree to everything. To OMONOEIN Ehetlaie, file mou.

[Lakonian]

Guys first of all, i have to say that i m displeased for the ban of Ehetlaios. And i want him to come back as soon as possible.

Secondly, i have stretched a lot of times, as have others, that nationalistic coronas we should keep them in moderation.

You take everything very personally, and it is bad because this forum has a lot of readers and good content and it is shame for the image of the forum.

Hence every time one goes all nationalistic, one will always find me for that matter disagreeing. Do not take it personal guys, it is simply only just business.(reffering to the past racism thread)

I have said so in the past, and i hope i will not have to say it again.

We need to keep it politically correct.

As for Ehetlaios i hope that he comes back soon, he is one of us, even though we cannot agree to everything. To OMONOEIN Ehetlaie, file mou.

Well said Euklid. I came close to removing myself from here, i think its abit streched this one. Greeks for Greeks re pethia!

To emma pou ehoume kanes then to exi!

[olvios]

We and i may not like hanukah as an event and what it says in the book but we were the conquerors there. Is this not the case? Should they have not resisted? I dont like the "slander" either but what do you think? We should just have taken the place of the persians? The self purpose of alexander was to crush persia and release Ionia thus avenging the wrongs the persians did to us. He took the empire and the epigonoi split it and lost all sense of purpose. If jewish people think we are the enemy because of the hanukah event now its just silly and i doubt its the case today. Jewish society in social and religious aspect was probably terrified by the fact that greek culture only would "irradicate" their identity whereas other cultures they came into contact with simply could not. Opposite views and cosmotheories in judaic and hellenic yes ok but what?

What cant i understand and what do i get wrong?

[Lakonian]

O ALEXANDROS INE GRAMENOS STO VIVLIO (BIBLE) SAN ANDXRISTOS!! Ton vlepoon san destoyer! Itan ton proto slander ke to proto propaganda pou ine grammeno for one of our greatest Greeks! Pos borite na skeftite oti i ellines eki pou itane messa sto Israel na tous ihan suppressed!
This is garbage, if you have this view then back it up with historical evenst that show Greeks put the Jews under suppression other then them writing this. The whole known world was conqoured by us, every nation fell in love with our people and made him a god in there own view. Hell in the Koran he is a saint! Indians loved him, some resisted because they had alraedy the influence of the Persians. i retire from this topic its getting to heated, and between our emma too.

The damn topic is about if we are desciples of Jews or Hellines, and all most of you have done is turned it into victimising! i have mearly pointed out how different our cultures are and at what levels our peoples were compared between the two, which shows that we are far from eachother as is the nearest galaxy. What have i done wrong? Do i speak of Hellas to highly for you?

Im sorry if i have offended anyone, My appologies to any Jews in here or anyone that has found my views offensive.

[olvios]

To ksero oti einai malakies oti grafi h "evraikh paradosh" alla o israhl den ekfrase teties apopsis kai den thelo na ton prosvallo.to ksero oti einai ola skoupidia pou grafoun oi xanoukado ravvinoi.

[Israel]

Lakonian,

I don't think anyone is offended here; definitaly not myself, anyway.

Your opinions concerning the difference between Hellenic and Judaic society at any given point are fine and valid. However, it is historically inaccurate to suggest that there was no oppression or targeted violence against Jews leading up to the Maccabean revolt; oppression and violence perpetrated by the Hellenic Emperor Antiochus.

I do not know where to find official academic/historic information online about this matter, but any library will have plenty of resources (obviously). You can see for yourself.

[Lakonian]

Oxi yia esena re file, im just saying i think people have taken my views out of topic, i just pointed out how jews viewed us and they did those days, because who was not a jew was a helleni as they said, regrdless if they were from Greece. so a view like this can cancel out us being desciples of Jews, that is all.

Israel, i was not attacking you brother in my earlier posts, i just think its wierd that we would even question if we are disciples of Jews.

And i dont mean to dig depear in old wounds, but are we forgetting Cyprus? Greeks were slaughtered by Jews and Romans, temples ect torn down, this is another example of the differences in our cultures, i hate to admit it but i think we were rivals more than anything.

Today its a different story, we connect more because of the genocides we have faced, and our pleople connect this some way because of dogmatic beliefs, i respect that, whatever brings us closer as people, but our identity is ours, please dont question that.

[olvios]

Διόδωρου του Σικελιώτου Βιβλιοθήκη Ιστορική

Τόμος 21-40(34-35), κεφαλαίο 1, παράγραφος 1, γραμμή 1

Δειτε το στον μουσαιο περιγραφει τι εγινε με τους Ιουδαιους οταν πηγε εκει ο αντιοχος .Υπερ μας ειναι και εκθειαζει το Αντιοχο κατακεραυνονοντας την ιουδαικη σταση .Μπορω να το βαλω στα Αρχαια αλλα δεν υποστηριζεται η γραμματοσειρα στην σελιδα.Ο "Ισραηλ" μπορει να εχει την αποψη και η προσωπικη του επικεντρωνετε στο επιφανειακο συμβολικο επιπεδο της γιορτης τους. Το ιστορικο των ραββινων για το γεγονος ειναι απορριπτεο φυσικα και αφοτου διαβασετε τον Διοδωρο θα καταλαβετε την κατασταση. :)

[Israel]

Lakonian,

The title of this thread: "Are you disciples of Athens or Jerusalem" is very provocative. Ancient history aside, people of the Christian faith are not disciples of Jerusalem, nor are they slaves to a Jewish world-view or a Jewish leadership class. Such ideas are more sensationalistic than true. Christianity has developed along its own varied and turbulent trajectory for over 2000 years.

Nowadays, at least in Israel, when people think of Greece they think of sunny islands, beaches, coffee and holidays.

[Lakonian]

Israel i have ancient sources of your people murdering mine brother.

Check it out just for the record, my source was Cassius Dio book 68

115-116: A messianic Jewish revolt results in the massacre of 240,000 Cypriots. Trajan intervenes to restore the peace and expels the Jews from Cyprus.



Meanwhile the Jews in the region of Cyrene had put a certain Andreas at their head, and were destroying both the Romans and the Greeks. They would eat the flesh of their victims, make belts for themselves of their entrails, anoint themselves with their blood and wear their skins for clothing; many they sawed in two, from the head downwards; others they gave to wild beasts, and still others they forced to fight as gladiators. In all two hundred and twenty thousand persons perished. In Egypt, too, they perpetrated many similar outrages, and in Cyprus, under the leadership of a certain Artemion. There, also, two hundred and forty thousand perished, and for this reason no Jew may set foot on that island, but even if one of them is driven upon its shores by a storm he is put to death. Among others who subdued the Jews was Lusius, who was sent by Trajan.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, "...about 200,000 Romans and Greeks had been killed (Dio Cassius, lxviii. 32). By this outbreak Libya was depopulated to such an extent that a few years later new colonies had to be established there (Eusebius, "Chronicle" from the Armenian, fourteenth year of Hadrian). Bishop Synesius, a native of Cyrene in the beginning of the fifth century, speaks of the devastations wrought by the Jews ("Do Regno," p. 2).[1]

Oli and water brothers, oil and water.

[Israel]

Lakonian,

I remember this being discussed in another thread on this forum.

My response there was that no other historians or sources mention the brutal, cannibalistic killings of so many hundreds of thousands of people. Another fact to remember is that cannibalism is prohibited under Jewish law and was so during this timeframe.

Pitting Jews and Greeks as some type of eternal enemy; using ancient battles as proof of Jewish cold-bloodedness; portraying Greeks and Jews as "oil and water"; all of this is laughable.

If you hold a grudge over what may or may not have happened thousands of years ago, then let me apologise officially on behalf of the Jewish people. "We are sorry." Better?

[Lakonian]

Israel, im no longer discussing this with you. Thank you for your time on this subject.

[Ehetlaios]

Slayer and Lakonian the "stupid people" are and the 3 mil Greek Americans ?

Guys insults against countries or theirs people are not tolerate. You can say anything that you want but in civilize manner.

Finally unbanned!!!

I will now justify what I said, because I feel that is the right thing to do.

I am certain that I am not the only one in the forum who has cursed the US, called Bush an idiot and the people he leads, sheep.

If Akritas has not said “malakes amerikanoi” not even once in his life, then I will admit it was my mistake.

But I doubt that.

When I wrote “who rules a stupid country and many stupid people”, I meant the country that feeds on McDonalds and does all kinds of crap, the people who believe that life started in the American continent and that the world did not exist before 1492, the people who don’t even know their state capital, the average hillbilly American who went to Iraq to kill the terrorists… EVERYONE who would consider, in his ignorance, Bush’s words credible.

If in these Americans that I referred to, are the 3 million Greeks who live in America, who consider Bush their godsend leader, and believe everything that he says, then so be it. They’re sheep too. And I know you know it.

However, seeing as no American Greek in the forum protested, accused me of insulting him and so on, Akritas’ ban is at least laughable.

In fact the only people who protested were the ones who asked him to unban me, because it was not fair.

I do not believe that Akritas is as naïve as he’d like us to believe with this answer:

“Slayer and Lakonian the "stupid people" are and the 3 mil Greek Americans ?

Guys insults against countries or theirs people are not tolerate. You can say anything that you want but in civilize manner.”


My personal opinion is that the reason Akritas banned me is only one of the many *other* reasons that he’d wish to see me out of this forum. It was just to remind me that he’s a forum cop and I’d best try not to mess around with him I have spoiled the soup of many. Ο ΝΟΩΝ, ΝΟΕΙΤΩ.

If you decide to ban me permanent after this post, I could not care less. I can always come back with different nicknames.

The problem will arise after you ban me. Will this be an attempt to keep the forum polite, or to kick out people with whom you do not agree?

You’ll say “you exaggerate, it is nothing like this”. Maybe… But I said nothing wrong, I only voiced my opinion and you banned me for it. I believe I have been polite enough with Israel, as well, with whom even if I have diametrically different opinions and dislike anything about Hebrewism, for my personal reasons, I have not spoken bad about him or his people.

ΕΙΣ ΤΟΥΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ, ΗΤΟ ΝΤΡΟΠΗ ΤΟ ΟΜΟΝΟΕΙΝ.

Among the Hellenes, it was shameful to agree on everything.

A quote you may have trouble understanding, Akritas.

I will not shut up for any reason. Ban me if you want.

Regards.

Ehetlaios

[HellenicPride]

Akritas

He directed his comment to George Bush, and metaphoricaly to the American nation, I don't think he meant to insult a whole nation or all it's people nor the 1-2 million Greek Americans, have I missed something here?

I hope it wasnt towards the Greek Americans who live in the US. As for Bush and the American government he said perfectly they are stupid.

[Kuniska]

Brains and study... is the key to your answer. Before the great horators of Christianity St Basil and St John the Chrysostom become known of their wisdom, they studied our ancient ones. Ancient Hellenic philosophy and Christian philosophy have the same goal; serve humanity and make it the best it can be.

[Ehetlaios]

Brains and study... is the key to your answer. Before the great horators of Christianity St Basil and St John the Chrysostom become known of their wisdom, they studied our ancient ones. Ancient Hellenic philosophy and Christian philosophy have the same goal; serve humanity and make it the best it can be.

"Studied" means nothing.

I can study the Bible but that won't make me a christian.

However it will help me to understand better the concept of christianity, and know where to strike the dogma.

The "studies" of the previously mentioned two orators of christianity does not mean they liked what they read, rather they learned the opposite way of view.

I have given proof of (especially) Chrysostome's curses against the Greeks.

[Kuniska]

I did not mean just the bible Ehetlaie... You have a question, you search beyond what others wants you to know.
The name of Hellenes was synonym to that of Pagans that era. Yep, John the Chrysostom and many others did not like what they saw in idolaters way of life, that to them was synonym to orgies and out of the metre life and the name Hellene was used mostly as theological term rather that of a nation. Thus you may find many passages to speak against pagans's life. Tell me are you going to find any passage against Hellenism to its fully context. they way we interpret it today? Please show us the full text of the speaches you have.

[Ehetlaios]

I did not mean just the bible Ehetlaie... You have a question, you search beyond what others wants you to know.
The name of Hellenes was synonym to that of Pagans that era. Yep, John the Chrysostom and many others did not like what they saw in idolaters way of life, that to them was synonym to orgies and out of the metre life and the name Hellene was used mostly as theological term rather that of a nation. Thus you may find many passages to speak against pagans's life. Tell me are you going to find any passage against Hellenism to its fully context. they way we interpret it today? Please show us the full text of the speaches you have.

You can see that the Hellenes are cursed not just religiously, but also ethnically.

http://www.davlos.gr/pdf/20797.pdf

[Kuniska]

I finally saw it... It does not speak about the agogi of Spartiates, it does not speak about the honour to die for your country, it does not speak about the beauty of the hellenic language, it does not speak badly about their history.
As I told you it is all about paganism. The reason why the philosophers are so undermined by him it is because they are representing for him a way to live that is indescent, bad, unholy. The Spartans used to call Athenians sissys because they believed in a different way of life.
Generally though I would like to see the rest of the texts to answer you more clearly. Once upon a time a friend of mine insulted Saint Basil very badly. I had not read the specific part so I did not say anything. But when I found the letter and I put the sentence in the whole text it made sense. My friend was a Communist and she was really obsessed against Christianity. She still is. But I can not do anything because of her family!
I believe that Hellenism and Christianity have one great common strength. They both believe you live your life at the best when you live within metron. Unfortunately those who speak the name of God have no metron. Sometimes those who speak for Hellas are in the same situation too.

[edessa]

i like this Kuniska. Some good points

[Ehetlaios]

As I told you it is all about paganism. The reason why the philosophers are so undermined by him it is because they are representing for him a way to live that is indescent, bad, unholy.

So you somehow do agree that the christian way of life is diametrically different to the Hellenic way of life?

Kuniska, I understand that when you read "Ellhn" in christian writings you do not trouble yourself too much thinking what it may mean. You subconsciously switch "Ellhn" with "pagan" and problem solved.

But it's not that easy. Especially when today that what we call ourselves: "Ellhnes". Of course there are those who prefer to be called "Romioi" or "Graikoi"... But I am Ellhnas. With the ancient, primordial meaning.

[Kuniska]

Ehetlaie,
There are differences among Hellenes first of all! Yep they share common beliefs but if we compare Athenians and Spartans ( I love comparing those too) lifestyle we will find many differences.
I am an Hellene too ( unfortunately Hellenis is not a term found in lexicons and thus I am destined to use the male term to describe myself...) But to be honest with you I do not bother to compare the two. I take the best of both worlds to become the best that I can be. There are things that the Christian Orthodox dogma says and I do not agree with and I really dislike Aristotle. But I do love what Saint Basil did dying poor and having led a life in accordance to his beliefs and I do love Sokrates for he died for his beliefs.
I feel really privileged that I was born an Hellene and it was easier for me to study both. And I do recognize and respect those who find value in our ancient ones and try not only to study them but put their teachings into their everyday life.