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Spartan
12-16-2005, 06:53 PM
MISIRKOV





"These pages are made with the intention to gather as much as possible of the available information regarding Krste Petkov Misirkov, the prominent Macedonian publicist, philologist and linguist who set the principles of the Macedonian literary language at the beggining of the 20th century.

His oppinions on the political and national issues of the time carry the proof of the struggle of the Macedonian intellectuals and their contribution to the fight for the liberation of the Macedonians and the creation of an independent Macedonian state."





"Can Macedonia turn itself into a separate ethnographical and political unit? Has it already done so? Is it doing so now?

In the three previous papers I turned my attention to what are the most important questions for me, and, I believe, for all sincere patriots. I think the reader needs no commentary to be able to understand what I meant by them.

But everything I have said would be groundless if we were not to consider certain theoretical questions which must be correctly formulated if we are to succeed in the work we are doing for our country and our people.

Many people will want to know what sort of national separatism we are concerned with; they will ask if we are not thinking of creating a new Macedonian nation. Such a thing would be artificial and short-lived. And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians? Have the Macedonians in their history ever found any outward form of spiritual and political expression? What have been their relations to the other Balkan nations and vice versa?

In this section I shall attempt to give an answer to this and to many other similar questions and also attempt, as best I can, to explain the true foundations of national separatism and to point out the unjustness of those who criticise it, thereby compromising it as something artificial.
One of the first questions which will be posed by the opponents of national unification and of the revival movement in Macedonia will be: what is the Macedonian Slav nation? Macedonian as a nationality has never existed, they will say, and it does not exist now. There have always been two Slav nationalities in Macedonia: Bulgarian and Serbian. So, any kind of Macedonian Slav national revival is simply the empty concern of a number of fantasists who have no concept of South Slav history.

Macedonia, they will argue further, is not a geographical, an ethnic or an historical whole. It has never had any influence on the fate of the neighbouring peoples; on the contrary it has been the arena for political and cultural strife between the various Balkan nations. We may hear similar arguments from some of our fellow-countrymen, Macedonian Slavs who call themselves Bulgarians, once they have exhausted all other means of fighting against Macedonian national unification. There is no single language in Macedonia; instead there are several different dialects which have a close affinity to the Bulgarian dialects and they all together make up one language — Bulgarian. And the remaining Macedonian dialects are closer to Serbian, our opponents will conclude.

Even if these assertions were well-founded, even if there were an argument against the claim that the Macedonian Slavs exist and that they belong to an independent Slav unit, it still seems to me that one could argue the opposite and show that the national revival and the growth of self-awareness among the Macedonian Slavs is something very ordinary and understandable.

The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the ‘appropriate historical circumstances’ arise.

There was a time when all Indo-Europeans made up one people and spoke one common language, as has now been established by linguists through a comparison of the old and new Indo-European languages. But the old situation, in which all Indo-Europeans understood one another, gradually broke down and disappeared and a new set of circumstances arose in which there came about a splitting of the language, of the common national awareness, the common language, into various languages, beliefs, attitudes, traditions, etc. But this division took place on a large scale, involving national groups such as the Indo-Iranians, the Aryans, the Germano-Slavonic-Lithuanians, etc. According to the dictates of historical circumstances, these groups became divided into language families such as Tndian, Tranian or Persian, Armenian, Greek, Thraco-Illyrian, Italian, Celtic. Germanic. Slavonic and Baltic or Lithuanian. The Slavonic group, somewhere around the birth of Christ, was first divided into: the Eastern Slavonic or Russian. West Slavonic and South Slavonic groups; it was only from the last group that the Bulgarian Slav nation broke away, becoming known as Bulgarians, the name attached to them by the non-Slav Bulgarians.

If our opponents now admit that smaller ethnographic units have been formed from larger groups as a result of historical necessity, and if they have hitherto regarded Macedonians as Bulgarians why is it that they cannot and will not agree that from this larger ethnographic unit, which everybody including themselves describes as the Bulgarian nation, two smaller units might be formed: a Bulgarian and a Macedonian one? Historical circumstances at present demand that this division should be made, just as they once demanded that Bulgarians. Serbs. Croats and Slovenes should emerge from the South Slav group, or that Poles. Czechs, Slovaks and Lusatian Serbs should emerge from the West Slav group.

The emergence of the Macedonians as a separate Slav people is a perfectly normal historical process which is quite in keeping with the process by which the Bulgarian, Croatian and Serbian peoples emerged from the South Slav group.
Let us compare the two processes.

Certain historians and philologists claim that from the very time when the South Slavs first came to the Balkans differences existed among them, i.e. they were two separate peoples: the Slavs (Bulgarians and Slovenes) and the Serbo-Croats. This is the opinion of Kopitar73, Miklosic74 and Safarik75. Other historians, and particularly linguists, claim that all the South Slavs when they came to the Balkan Peninsula spoke different dialects (speech-forms) of a single language and that they were known by a common name: Slavs. The Serbo-Croats were also known as Slavs; the names Serb and Croat originated from the smaller South Slav groups and were tribal names which became national names only when the people who shared these names, i.e. the Serbs and the Croats, began to form larger states. All the Slavs who were subjects of the state of Serbia called themselves Serbs instead of Slavs, and all those who were subjects of the state of Croatia called themselves Croats. This is the opinion of Prof. Jagic76 and of many of his students. He regards the present South Slav languages not as three units strictly separated from one another but as a stream of individual speech-forms all running into one another, and forming, as it were, links in a chain.
If we are inclined to accept the first theory, i.e. that the Bulgarians and the Serbo-Croats settled in the Balkans as ready-formed, individual units, then we must ask how far these individual nations spread at the time when they were beginning to settle the land; we must also ask whether all the Bulgarians who came to the peninsula remained as they were or whether some of them became Serbianised. And did all the Serbo-Croats who came to the Balkans remain as they were. or did of them become Bulgarian ised? If we accept the claim that the South Slav nations came ready-formed to the Balkans we are left completely in the dark concerning the question of the boundary between Bulgarians and Serbs, and particularly the question of which peoples settled the Morava, Kucevo and Branicevo regions in the Middle Ages, in other words the present kingdom of Serbia. Safarik, basing his opinion on the works of Byzantine historians, particularly those of Constantine Porphyrogenitus77, claims that these areas were settled by Bulgarian Slavs who became Serbianised in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. If we accept this as a correct explanation it will be clear that a nation cannot always resist pressure from neighbouring foreign nations and that it will lose part of its territory to the stronger neighbour; furthermore, it can be seen from this theory that nations can be made up of two closely connected peoples and that historical necessity may weld them into one whole.
Why should the events of the Middle Ages not be repeated now? The Bulgarians have lost almost all of present-day Serbia to the Serbs and have come to accept their loss, indeed they no longer look on it as a loss. Why should they not then be able to reconcile themselves to the loss of Macedonia when it is as much an inescapable necessity as was the loss of Serbia? History remorselessly led Bulgaria into losing Serbia to the Nemanja dynasty and to the Serbian spirit, first in the political and then in the national sense; and the historical circumstances which arose from the Berlin Treaty required that Macedonia should be lost to Bulgaria first in the political and then in the national sense.
Yet another comparison with the history of Serbia: if Serbia had been dissatisfied with her fate in the state of the Nemanja dynasty she would have tried to gain her liberty by offering opposition and by attempting to unite with Bulgaria; but this attempt would have been made and would have had the desired result only if the historical circumstances had been favourable and allowed it to happen, which they did not and so Serbia became reconciled to the facts and was lost to the Bulgarians. The situation is the same and will be the same for Macedonia. Macedonia first attempted to gain liberation from Turkey but unfortunately the attempt was ineffectual. It might have been possible after such a liberation to think of unification with Bulgaria but this year has shown us that historical circumstances will never allow all of Macedonia to unite with Bulgaria. The Macedonians and Bulgarians are now left with a choice between two possibilities: either Macedonia will be divided among the neighbouring Balkan states, which would mean a loss of two thirds of Macedonia both for the Bulgarians and for the Macedonians, or else all relations with Bulgaria will be severed and the Macedonian question will be regarded on a purely neutral, Macedonian basis. When necessity phrases the issue thus it is clear that the second choice is the one which will always be preferred by everybody, for what honest Macedonian patriot would be prepared to sacrifice Kostur, Lerin*, Bitola, Ohrid, Resen, Prilep, Veles, Tetovo, Skopje, etc. for the unification of Macedonia up to the left bank of the River Vardar with Bulgaria? Is there a greater affinity between a Macedonian from Eastern Macedonia with a citizen of Ruse, on the Romanian border, or with a Macedonian from eastern, western, northern or southern Macedonia? When historical necessity categorically tells us: Macedonians, you must either unite and cut yourselves off from the other Balkan peoples or be prepared to see your country divided, all true Macedonian patriots will choose the former course. This will require humanity from the Macedonians; but can one describe as humane the situation which the propagandists have set up in Macedonia? In one and the same home the father belongs to one nationality, one of the sons to another, the second son to yet another, and God alone knows how long this will continue? Humanity requires that we should root out this abnormal situation from our land and reconcile brother with brother and father with child. This unification is a necessity and there is no need for us to tolerate enmity in our families for the sake of some unification with Bulgaria, which will never be countenanced either by the other small Balkan states or by the great powers.

Thus, under the present political conditions, the loss of Macedonia for Bulgaria is no less justifiable than was the loss of Serbia for Bulgaria in the Middle Ages. And just as the loss of Serbia in the political sense inevitably resulted in a loss in the national sense, so too the fragmentation of San Stefano Bulgaria will bring an ethnographic division in the train of the political division. Circumstances create cultural and national ties between people, but circumstances can also split close connections.

Such a comparison may well exist between the first theory, i.e. that of the settlement of the Balkan Peninsula by the South Slavs, their division into two nationalities, their strict separation in the ethnographic and geographic sense and the gradual alteration of the ethnographic map of the Balkan Peninsula, and the process of national differentiation taking place in Macedonia today.

Let us now see whether from the point of view of the other theory, i.e. that of Jagic, concerning the formation of the South Slav nations, the formation of a new Macedonian Slav nation can be explained in the present political circumstances?

Jagic tells us that the South Slav languages are. and have been, a chain of dialects; he also says that all the South Slavs, up till the formation of the Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian states, had been designated by the same name — Slavs. It seems that over the length of this chain of South Slav tribes and dialects, four strong units were formed, one might say four states with separate names, i.e. the Slovene. Croat, Serb and Bulgarian states. These units, or states, according to the strength they had when they were formed, divided up all the tribal and dialectical features of the South Slav ethnographic complex and called them by their own names. These units were centred round the people who bore the national name, and as their political power increased or decreased so the centre widened or narrowed. Thus the names Serb and Croat became national names after having been tribal names; thus the neighbouring tribes with their dialects mechanically attached themselves to these centres so that together they made up one people and gradually became assimilated by those who had subdued or incorporated them.

If the formation of the South Slav peoples was a mechanical and political process it would not be impossible that it might recur in present times. Within the South Slav language complex there arc several branches outside the Serbian and Bulgarian political units; these are the Macedonian dialects. These branches, since they are closely allied, naturally have some connection linking them more closely with Bulgarian in the east and Serbian in the north. These branches have been given various names at various times but it was not until the last quarter of the nineteenth century that these names overlapped so much as to displace one another. These various names did not properly catch on, and gradually they began to give way until finally they were replaced by the natural description ''Slav" with a "Macedonian" reflection from the geographical area in which they were distributed. The people who spoke these dialects had once been called "Slavs" and later either "Serbs" or "Bulgarians" until the rivalry between these two names made them both alien to the Macedonian Slavs, who started calling themselves after the old geographical name of their country. The name Macedonian was first used by the Macedonian Slavs as a geographical term to indicate their origin. This name is well known to the Macedonian Slavs and all of them use it to describe themselves. Since the formation of nationalities is a political and mechanical process, all the necessary conditions exist for Macedonia to break off as an independent ethnographic region. The Macedonians have a common country which is gradually, with the reforms, breaking off into an independent political whole in which there are "several branches of the South Slav chain of languages": these branches can easily be united through a general recognition of the central one as the means of expression of the literary language of all intelligent people in Macedonia and as the language of books and schools. Thus all the conditions for the national revival of the Macedonians are clearly visible, and, even from the point of view of the other historical theory (concerning the formation of small ethnographic units from a larger unit on the Balkan Peninsula), this is completely logical.

Here is what one might say to those who claim that Macedonian as a nationality has never existed: it may not have existed in the past, but it exists today and will exist in the future.

Let us now ask another question: would it be correct to say that there are two nationalities in Macedonia or, if there is only one, can it be called Serbian or Bulgarian?
In Macedonia, as in all other countries, there are many dialects which are very close to one another. This similarity among the dialects of Macedonia can be seen on the one hand in their general phonetic, phonemic, morphological, formal and lexical features; and on the other hand each dialect is very close to its neighbouring dialects and shares with them common characteristics which do not occur in the dialects of more distant parts. The western dialects are closest to each other and, so to speak, flow together, as do the east-em dialects; these dialects are linked in the same chain.

Now the question arises: which of the branches of our language chain should be called Serbian and which Bulgarian, and on what basis?

In settling this question one should not forget the following consideration: which of the dialects of the Serbian and Bulgarian languages should be accepted as most typical of those languages and what are the qualities which are considered most characteristic of the one language or the other? Do these most characteristic features also exist in the Macedonian dialects? Do the Macedonian dialects have their own common features which do not exist in Serbian or Bulgarian? In the Macedonian dialects do the Macedonian expressions outweigh the Serbian and Bulgarian expressions, or is the reverse true? Finally, do the qualities of extreme or peripheral Macedonian dialects and speech-forms permit us to consider them closer to the central and most typical Macedonian dialect of Veles, Priiep and Bitola or are they closer to the central dialects of Serbian and Bulgarian?

The most typical and most extensive of the Serbian dialects is either that of Bosnia-Hercegovina or of southern Serbia, and it has been the literary language of the Serbs and Croats since the time of Vuk Karadic. The central Macedonian dialect, i.e. that of Veles and Prilep, can never in its essence be oriented towards Serbian because the difference between this language and the central dialect of Serbo-Croatian, i.e. the current Serbo-Croatian language, is as great as that between Czech and Polish. This is as much as to say that there are no Serbs in the central part of Macedonia. From the current acknowledgement that from the very beginning there were only three Slav nations in the Balkans — Slovenes, Serbo-Croats and Bulgarians — and from a denial of the presence of Serbs in central Macedonia, there is an indirect acknowledgement that there are Bulgarians there. But is this current attitude, that if there are no Serbs it means that there are Bulgarians, correct? Does the fact that there are no Serbs really mean that there are Bulgarians?

In the central Macedonian dialects the following phonetic features can be found: the old Macedonian sounds ú and ü, have been turned into o and e in those places where the sound has been preserved, e.g. äå*îò from the old Macedonian äü*üòú, through from äü*úò; instead of the old òj and äj we have  and ƒ or ¼ and ¼ƒ, for example âð弝*, òóƒ*, instead of *¼ we have ¼œ, e.g. ê, instead of êî*¼, instead of x - a, for example ð*ê*, etc. Not all these features are Serbian, nor are they Bulgarian. They do not exist in the main Bulgarian dialect, eastern Bulgarian, which serves as the literary language of the Bulgarians.
If the east Bulgarian dialect is taken as being the most typical Bulgarian speech-form, it is very clear that the distance alone which separates it from the centre of Macedonia is sufficient proof that the Macedonian tongue cannot be Bulgarian.

The east Bulgarian dialect is now considered the most typical Bulgarian tongue, free from all foreign influence. Its extent is greater than that of west Bulgaria. The west Bulgarian dialect is very different from that of the east and one can feel the influence of Serbian, despite the fact that it is an original dialect. The Macedonian dialects, however, also have their own characteristic forms, while the fact that they are close to Serbia means that they are not free from Serbianisms. These dialects, what is more, are found in the extreme west. For all these reasons, and above all because the Macedonians, up till the last Russo-Turkish war, had fought together with the Bulgarians, under the Bulgarian name, for their freedom from the Greek Patriarch and from Turkey, and because the sites of the battles were around Bulgaria, i.e. Istanbul, Wallachia, southwest Russia and Serbia, these places were mostly represented in the war of liberation by the Bulgarians and this helped to make eastern Bulgarian become the literary language of the Bulgarians and the Macedonians.

Let us accept for the moment that the Macedonians are Bulgarians and that the characteristics of the Macedonian central dialect are just as much Bulgarian as are the east Bulgarian ones; even then we cannot speak of an ethnographic unit existing between Bulgaria and Macedonia. Even if such a unit had once existed it would have had to be destroyed by the pressure..."


Now all FYROMs pay close attention to your national hero and what he says about your creation.

rtgs
09-04-2008, 04:10 PM
Just a simple fact: Do you know where was Krste Misirkov born?
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Answer: Krste Misirkov was born in the village of Pela, today in Northern Greece, in ancient times: capital of the Macedonian kingdom.

akritas
09-04-2008, 04:39 PM
Just a simple fact: Do you know where was Krste Misirkov born?

Answer: Krste Misirkov was born in the village of Pela, today in Northern Greece, in ancient times: capital of the Macedonian kingdom.

Do you know which signature is rtgs ?
and what is saying ?


http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/3167/misirkovsignaturevd1.jpg

rtgs
09-04-2008, 05:01 PM
Do you know which signature is rtgs ?
and what is saying ?


http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/3167/misirkovsignaturevd1.jpg

no, please tell me.

akritas
09-04-2008, 05:15 PM
no, please tell me.
you speak the same language , so tell me ?

rtgs
09-04-2008, 05:36 PM
you speak the same language , so tell me ?

please tell me. you asked


i asked where was born Krste Petkov Misirkov, and i answered: in Pela (or Postol as we name it, "Postol" means "throne", i.e. capital on macedonian)


and please tell me some famous greek from macedonia born in 1800s?

akritas
09-04-2008, 05:43 PM
please tell me. you asked


i asked where was born Krste Petkov Misirkov, and i answered: in Pela (or Postol as we name it, "Postol" means "throne", i.e. capital on macedonian)

No postol, no pistol and not gun or riffle was the name of the x-capital of Macedonia.
Misrikov signed as MACEDONIAN BULGARIAN in his diary.


and please tell me some famous greek from macedonia born in 1800s?

you are out of the topic.

rtgs
09-04-2008, 07:07 PM
No postol, no pistol and not gun or riffle was the name of the x-capital of Macedonia.

Not pistol, but POSTOL. you are good at twisting names.

POSTOL means THRONE. Misirkov was BORN in PELA.


Misrikov signed as MACEDONIAN BULGARIAN in his diary.

maybe - misirkov, after he left macedonia, settled in sofia. he was Macedonian with a bulgarian citizenship. like pavlos vaskopulos who is macedonian greek.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rtgs View Post
and please tell me some famous greek from macedonia born in 1800s?

you are out of the topic.
:-) of course i am out of topic. because there are NOT much greeks from Macedonia in 1800s. so there are NO famous once at all. If we go back 300 or 400 years - there were no greeks at all.

the topic is macedonian heroes, so if there are some of greek origin, tell me.

Tsontos
09-04-2008, 07:30 PM
1) Misirkov was a self-proclaimed Bulgarian. He said Bulgarians like himself in Macedonia were "more Bulgarian than the ones in Bulgaria"

2) for information about the Greek inhabitants of Macedonia in the 19th century and the preceeding centuries see the following threads:

14th Century Names of Lay Proprietors in the Themes of Thessaloniki and Strymon (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/medieval-macedonian-history/43-14th-century-names-lay-proprietors-themes-thessaloniki-strymon.html)

Macedonian Intellectuals of Late Byzantine Thessalonike (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/medieval-macedonian-history/3760-macedonian-intellectuals-late-byzantine-thessalonike.html)

List of famous medival Macedonians (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/medieval-macedonian-history/1268-list-famous-medival-macedonians.html)

The Greek War of Independence in Macedonia - 1821 (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/modern-macedonian-history/123-greek-war-independence-macedonia-1821-a.html)

Tsontos
09-04-2008, 07:32 PM
POSTOL means THRONE. Misirkov was BORN in PELA.


The Slavic name Postol is a corruption of the medieval Greek name for the town, Άγιοι Απόστολοι (Agii Apostoli). In English "Holy Apostles".

You have heard of the word Apostle in English right?:rolleyes: Where do you think it comes from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Apostles

The Twelve Apostles (Greek:Ἀπόστολος, apostolos, "someone sent out", e.g. with a message or as a delegate)

Ptolemy
09-04-2008, 07:44 PM
:-) of course i am out of topic. because there are NOT much greeks from Macedonia in 1800s. so there are NO famous once at all. If we go back 300 or 400 years - there were no greeks at all.

the topic is macedonian heroes, so if there are some of greek origin, tell me.

I realize you cant help yourself from proving you are a complete waste of time but for the sake of materiality next time you wish to come up with one of your notorious empty claims, at least have some decency and provide a valid source to back them up, as i already pointed out to you.

If anyone followed your Fatuous line of thinking he could easily conclude there shouldnt be any Slavs in Macedonia prior to 1800s since there is Noone famous. Please try your best next time coming up with sth worthy for people to waste their time instead of your usual logical attrocities.

Petros Houhoulis
09-04-2008, 08:03 PM
Just a simple fact: Do you know where was Krste Misirkov born?
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.
,.
..
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Answer: Krste Misirkov was born in the village of Pela, today in Northern Greece, in ancient times: capital of the Macedonian kingdom.

...But your bufoons chose to call this place "Postol":

http://www.misirkov.org/biography.htm

"...He was born in 1874 at Postol, the former capital of Alexander the Great, in the part of Macedonia under Greek rule...."

Petros Houhoulis
09-04-2008, 08:05 PM
please tell me. you asked


i asked where was born Krste Petkov Misirkov, and i answered: in Pela (or Postol as we name it, "Postol" means "throne", i.e. capital on macedonian)


and please tell me some famous greek from macedonia born in 1800s?

I've got someone before 1800:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanouel_Pappas

kostas68
09-05-2008, 01:12 AM
We can quote the testimony of William Leake who visited Macedonia in 1835 and calls clearly Bulgarians Misirkov's ancestors:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/tranorgre259.png
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/tranorgre261.png
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/tranorgrecov.png

kostas68
09-05-2008, 08:36 AM
:-) of course i am out of topic. because there are NOT much greeks from Macedonia in 1800s. so there are NO famous once at all. If we go back 300 or 400 years - there were no greeks at all.

the topic is macedonian heroes, so if there are some of greek origin, tell me.

Ptolemy is right,you are a typicall sample of a Scopian troll,a complete waste of time.But i'll bother myself to answer you because i enjoy to expose persons like you who are blinded from their chauvinistic fanatism and the constantly brainwashing they sustain all of their life.If you want to learn about Greek heroes of Macedonia and the Greek revolution of 1821 in Macedonia read here.Petros showed you already one of them,Emmanouil Papas who was born in 1773 in my village.If you don't trust Wikipedia,there are many other sources:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregorcov.png

At first read what ethnicities resided in the Balkans according to the English historian Gordon and guess who are not mentioned:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregor19.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregor20.png

Now read about the Greek revolution in the Macedonian regions of Halkidiki,Thessaloniki and Naousa.The Macedonians uprised silmoultaneously with the southern Greeks in 1821.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregor56.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregor176.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregor177.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregor285.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregor286.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregor287.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregor288.png


The Macedonian armatoles (Greek term for a kind of irregular fighters) asked help from Ypsilantis,the military leader of <Filiki Eteria> the Greek secret organization that prepared the revolution.Off course we are talking about real Macedonians,that means Greeks.Your ancestors at that time,as all the authors and historians confirm still called themselves <Bulgarians>.The term Macedonian was then related only with Greece,when someone said Macedonian meant only Greek,the correlation with the Bulgarians began 5-6 decades later.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregor394.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregor396.png

Perhaps you prefer a German source:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/gerkaratcov.png

Read here how Emmanouil Papas and Chapsas from Cassandra led their troops to Thessaloniki.(By the way,it's mentioned as <Saloniki>,not Solun).
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/geremp1.png

The leaders of the Greek revolutionaries Zaphirakis,Karatasos and Diamantis asked reinforcements by Ypsilantis and they planed also the spread of the revolution to Kastoria.(Not <Kostur>,as you'll ascertain).
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/gergrregakar2.png

The defeated Macedonians fled to the <liberated Greece>,not to Scopje.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/gergrregatkar321.png

The Macedonians under Karatasos' leadership fought in southern Greece alongside the Roumeliotes and Souliotes,not the Ohridski and the Bitolski.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/gergrrekarat.png

The Greeks of Nausa killed the few turks of this city.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/gergrrenau320.png

If it's not enough,take a look in a French source:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregalcov.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregalemp2.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/grregalemp245.png

What's going on here,rtgs?What are writing all these stupid Germans,Frenchmen,Englishmen?Why should we rely on their testimonies,what could they know back then,since authorities like Stefov claim that in Macedonia weren't living any Greeks,that has to be the truth.These miserable westerners were bribed by the Greek propagandists,eh?

Read also this:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/historyleecov.png

What lands considered many westerners as Greek?What considered the Greeks themselves that belonged to them?
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/historylee5.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/historylee6.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/historylee7.png

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/historylee14.png

Why both foreigners and Greeks considered Macedonia as a land that belonged to Greece?The answer is simple.Because there were living numerous Greek populations:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/historylee78.png

They had uprised against the Turks,simoultaneously with their southern brethren:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/historylee204.png

And they called themselves Macedonians,at a time when the ancestors of today's Scopians hadn't still <discover> this name:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/historylee205.png

Simple Greek people knew from whom they were descending,they didn't need king Otto to teach them that their ancestors were the ancient Greeks like Leonidas,Nestor and Alexander the Great:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/historylee360.png

Do you believe that your ancestors knew back in 1828 more about Alexander the Great and Macedonia or about Djenghis Han and Mongolia?

Read also here,how the Greeks of Macedonia called themselves <Macedonians> many years before your ancestors discover this name:
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/modern-macedonian-history/8017-hellenic-school-thessaloniki-1858-a.html

And if all this isn't enough for you,you can find here whether there were living any Greeks in Macedonia in 16th century and what they knew about Alexander the Great:
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/medieval-macedonian-history/6727-macedonia-ad-1553-a.html

Or look here:
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/modern-macedonian-history/7127-macedonians-1854-were-bulgarians.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/modern-macedonian-history/7055-macedonia-1813-no-makedontsi-again.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/modern-macedonian-history/6135-document-1715-thessalonike-inhabited-greeks.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/modern-macedonian-history/6542-macedonia-1831-where-were-makedontsite.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7276-frenchman-macedonia-1854-a.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7517-travels-northern-greece-william-martin-leake-1835-london.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7993-cambridge-modern-history-greeks-bulgarians-macedonia.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7880-thessaloniki-its-geography-1839-a.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7765-populations-russia-turkey-1877-a.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7636-protestant-mission-among-bulgarians.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7579-researches-highlands-turkey-1869-a.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7555-american-foreign-relations-1913-a.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7544-american-review-reviews-causes-balkan-wars-1912-a.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7540-edinburgh-review-1901-a.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7427-makedonien-landshafts-und-kulturbilder-1927-a.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7437-memoirs-ionian-islands-1816-a.html
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/interesting-macedonian-books-sources/7342-sultan-his-subjects-richard-davey-1897-a.html

akritas
09-05-2008, 08:46 AM
kostas can we stay in the topic please ?
dont play the stupid games of a Scopian troll.

rtgs
09-05-2008, 05:46 PM
I've got someone before 1800:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanouel_Pappas

"Born in Dovitsa, Serres, son to a priest, ......"

Of course. Priest settled first. Or maybe they just converted from macedonians to greeks, so his father changed to greek in order to be priest.

whatever... if you go on, you will see that he "landed" in macedonia, that means probably that he came from greece?

very strong "macedonian".


i do not deny that there were greeks in macedonia, but they were so few - that is the fact. you do not have any famous greek from macedonia from that time. because there were not many.

kzk842
09-05-2008, 06:49 PM
"Born in Dovitsa, Serres, son to a priest, ......"

Of course. Priest settled first. Or maybe they just converted from macedonians to greeks, so his father changed to greek in order to be priest.

whatever... if you go on, you will see that he "landed" in macedonia, that means probably that he came from greece?

very strong "macedonian".


i do not deny that there were greeks in macedonia, but they were so few - that is the fact. you do not have any famous greek from macedonia from that time. because there were not many.

What are you talking about?
Just at the north of Macedonia you could find in the past Skopians mixed with Greek and Vlach population.

BTW the famoust Macedonian is Zorba the Greek from Katafygi of Kozani preference,or is he not a Greek?

Relax be
09-05-2008, 07:00 PM
Hitherto our people have been most interested in simply gaining full political autonomy; however, while still pursuing our national interests, they allowed various uninvited guests to make their way in, such as the Greeks, the Bulgarians and the Serbs. The political battle, then, is followed by the national battle. But the battle against various forms of propaganda in Macedonia is a step ahead, and not behind, for this too is part of the battle for freedom, a battle against the dark forces which will not allow our country to look at its own interests with its own eyes and force it to see through glasses which darken the truth and color it in Greek, Serbian or Bulgarian shades. The time has come to cast off the blinkers of religious propaganda forced on Macedonia.

K.P. Misirkov
On the Macedonian Matters.

TALOS
09-05-2008, 07:07 PM
K.P. Misirkov
On the Macedonian Matters.

dear schismatic,

"On Macedonian Matters" was published in 1903

in an article in the "20th of July" newspaper in Sofia, 1919 he wrote:
"Whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians, we have always maintained a separate, unified, and different nationality from the Serbs, and we have Bulgarian consciousness."

In a separate publication in the Bulgarian newspaper "Mir" from 1919 he refers to the part of Macedonia occupied by Serbia as a "purely Bulgarian country", since the 6th century.


i think by 1919 he clearly knew or found out what he was.

i believe in a few years u will agree with Misilikov ;)

Relax be
09-05-2008, 07:36 PM
This is why one of the prime duties of the Macedonian intelligentsia
is once and for all to drive Serbian and Bulgarian propaganda out of Macedonia so that Macedonia can establish its own spiritual centre, and free the Macedonians from this give and take relation with the neighboring Balkan states and peoples.

K.P.Misirkov
On the Macedonian matters

rtgs
09-05-2008, 08:24 PM
The Slavic name Postol is a corruption of the medieval Greek name for the town, Άγιοι Απόστολοι (Agii Apostoli). In English "Holy Apostles".
It is not corruption. That is change of the language. Nicosia/Lefkosia style....
Maybe that is why we change throne to that. (what is the hellenic word for throne?)



You have heard of the word Apostle in English right?:rolleyes: Where do you think it comes from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Apostles

why don't you tell. i tought it is because of voivoda Apostol from vardarska, upppps, Enidze Vardardsko (renamed to Gianitssa). :-)


P.S. and congratulations that you have closed the thread where i told you that i don;t trust you, and he calls me idiot and puts once more propaganda, which again i don't trust. :)

rtgs
09-05-2008, 08:26 PM
Quote:
This is why one of the prime duties of the Macedonian intelligentsia
is once and for all to drive Serbian and Bulgarian propaganda out of Macedonia so that Macedonia can establish its own spiritual centre, and free the Macedonians from this give and take relation with the neighboring Balkan states and peoples.
K.P.Misirkov
On the Macedonian matters

so what? that only proves my theory that serbs and bulgarians (and greeks) interfiared in our nation. some with more success (greeks) some with less, some without any (serbs).

Petros Houhoulis
09-05-2008, 10:11 PM
"Born in Dovitsa, Serres, son to a priest, ......"

Of course. Priest settled first. Or maybe they just converted from macedonians to greeks, so his father changed to greek in order to be priest.

whatever... if you go on, you will see that he "landed" in macedonia, that means probably that he came from greece?

very strong "macedonian".


i do not deny that there were greeks in macedonia, but they were so few - that is the fact. you do not have any famous greek from macedonia from that time. because there were not many.

Can you stop that crap? Greece was not even liberated itself before 1800, why should a priest move there?

He prepared his troops elsewhere and landed in Halkidiki. Obviously you cannot train your troops under the wary eye of your enemy, he had to do it somewhere that the Turks could not find either his troops or his weapons.

Those few Greeks were the only Macedonians left after the onslaught of the Slavs during the Middle ages. You were those Slavs...

kostas68
09-06-2008, 11:32 AM
"Born in Dovitsa, Serres, son to a priest, ......"

Of course. Priest settled first. Or maybe they just converted from macedonians to greeks, so his father changed to greek in order to be priest.

whatever... if you go on, you will see that he "landed" in macedonia, that means probably that he came from greece?

very strong "macedonian".


i do not deny that there were greeks in macedonia, but they were so few - that is the fact. you do not have any famous greek from macedonia from that time. because there were not many.

Hey,rtgs,don't bother yourself with things of whom you haven't any clue.I am descending from the same village,so allow me to know better from you what happened there in 1773.At first not only his father but his grandfather was a priest as well,Papa-Leontis or Leontaris.His father's name was Dimitrios and his mother's Vasiliki.He had 4 brothers:Konstantinos,Georgios
Athanasios,Malamas and two sisters:Panayiota and Eleni.He married Faidra and aqcuired 8 sons: Dimitrios,Athanasios,Anastasios,Ioannis,Nikolaos,M ihail,
Konstantinos and Aristeidis and 3 daughters:Eleni,Evfrosyni and Nerantzoula.Now how the hell did you conclude that he was a <Makedonski> who was Hellenized in order to become priest?And what absurd theory is that?Why should a <Makedonski> become Greek in order to become priest in 1750?If it was true,then there wouldn't be any Bulgarians or Serbians priests in the Balkans,all the priests would be Greeks!And what would gain a priest in 1750 that he would prefer to renounce his ethnicity?Listen budy,i know that we were always ethnic Greeks and regionally Macedonians,so spare us from this crap that we were once ethnic <Macedonians> who became Greeks because someone wanted to become priest!!!