The Pelasgians

[akritas]

Who are The Pelasgians ?:wacko:

Pelasgians remind us of a great racial problem belonging to the early days and of questions of more import bound up with it.

Herodotus quoted:
"Among the Greeks Croesus found upon inquiry that the Lacedaemonians were chief among them of Doric stock and the Athenians of Ionic. These races, Ionian and and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second an Hellenic people. The Pelasgian stock has never yet left its habitation, the Doric is assuredly a much-wandered race;"

and he traces their wanderings from Phthia, where they dwelt in King Deucalion's dayto the lands below Ossa and Olympus in King Dorus time and so onward to the Peloponnese. The Pelasgian language he cannot accurately determine but he knows of Pelasgians dwelling at Creston near the Etruscans (though once in what now is Thessaly) and of others in two places on the Hellespont"who came to dwell among the Athenians," and of other townships "once Pelasgian which changed the name;" and from these he judges that the Pelasgians had a barbarian tongue. If then--the hypothetical form must be noted--"if, then, all the Pelasgic stock so spoke, then the Attic nation, being Pelasgian, when it changed to be Hellenic, must have changed its language too," for it seems clear that the people of Creston have not changed theirs. "But the Hellenic stock, as to me seems clear, has ever used the same language since it was. While separated from the the Pelasgians it was but few in numbers, but starting by being originally small it has grown to be a multitude of nations, since the Pelasgians especially and many other foreign stocks united themselves with them. Before that, however, as I at least think, the Pelasgic stock on its side nowhere was greatly increased." (book 1, 58).


Homer mentions Pelasgians in the Catalogue and in the Odyssey, and Pelasgian is one of his epithets for Zeus of Dodona, and for that Argos where Myrmidons, Hellenes and Achaeans dwell. Hesiod calls Dodona "seat of Pelasgians." Gradually a mythical Pelasgos comes into the pedigrees to be the ancestor of Pelasgians as Hellen was of Hellenes. The tribe or people is particularly associated with Attica for some reason.

Identification with existing groups, who called themselves or were called Pelasgian, was not difficult, it was obvious. Some of this is, no doubt, tradition and some of it theory. Possibly to the son of a Dorian town, who thought not over-highly of Ionians, there was a certain satisfaction in thinking that the only real Greeks from the beginning were the Dorians.

Yet elsewhere, as we have seen, Homer links the tie of blood among Hellenes of his day with those of language, religion, and culture (VIII, 144),--a kinship between Spartans and Athenians asserted in the hour of danger. A purist might excuse the contradiction on the ground that in one place Herodotus gives his own view, in the other the Athenian opinion. But to be precise on such questions is to court disaster.


Pelasgians, in the earliest times of Greece were it would sem, clearly distinguished as Pelasgians of Thessaly and Pelasgians of Peloponnesus and to the latter the poets refer the name of Tyrrhenian Pelasgians. In my opinion the origins of such peoples are hardly to be made out from the past.

what is your opinion ?

[akritas]

here is what is Brittanica quoted as about the Pelasgians



PELASGIANS, a name applied by Greek writers to a prehistoric people whose traces were believed to exist in Greek lands. If the statements of ancient authorities are marshalled in order of their date it will be seen that certain beliefs cannot be traced back beyond the age of this or that author. Though this does not prove that the beliefs themselves were not held earlier, it suggests caution in assuming that they were. In the Homeric poems there are Pelasgians among the allies of Troy: in the catalogue, Iliad, ii. 840-843, which is otherwise in strict geographical order, they stand between the Hellespontine towns and the Thracians of south-east Europe (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Europe), i.e. on the Hellespontine border of Thrace (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Thrace).

Their town or district is called Larissa (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Larissa) and is fertile, and they are celebrated for their spearmanship. Their chiefs are Hippothous and Pylaeus, sons of Lethus son of Teutamus. Iliad, x. 428-429, describes their camping ground between the town of Troy and the sea; but this obviously proves nothing about their habitat (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Habitat) in time of peace. Odyssey, xvii. 175-177, notes Pelasgians in Crete (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Crete), together with two apparently indigenous and two immigrant peoples (Achaeans and Dorians (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Dorians)), but gives no indication to which class the Pelasgians belong. In Lemnos (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Lemnos) (Iliad, vii. 467; xiv. 230) there are no Pelasgians, but a Minyan dynasty. Two other passages (Iliad, ii. 681-684; xvi. 233-235) apply the epithet "Pelasgic" to a district called Argos (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Argos) about Mt Othrys in south Thessaly (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Thessaly), and to Zeus (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Zeus) of Dodona (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Dodona).

But in neither case are actual Pelasgians mentioned; the Thessalian Argos is the specific home of Hellenes and Achaeans (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Achaeans), and Dodona is inhabited by Perrhaebians and Aenianes (Iliad, ii. 750) who are nowhere described as Pelasgian. It looks therefore as if "Pelasgian" were here used connotatively, to mean either "formerly occupied by Pelasgian" or simply "of immemorial age." Hesiod (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Hesiod) expands the Homeric phrase and calls Dodona "seat of Pelasgians" (fr. 225); he speaks also of a personal Pelasgus as father of Lycaon (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Lycaon), the culture-hero of Arcadia (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Arcadia); and a later epic poet, Asius, describes Pelasgus as the first man, whom the earth threw up that there might be a race of men. Hecataeus (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Hecataeus) makes Pelasgus king of Thessaly (expounding Iliad, ii. 681-684); Acusilaus applies this Homeric passage to the Peloponnesian Argos, and engrafts the Hesiodic Pelasgus, father of Lycaon, into a Peloponnesian genealogy (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Genealogy). Hellanicus (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Hellanicus) a generation later repeats this blunder, and identifies this Argive and Arcadian Pelasgus with the Thessalian Pelasgus of Hecataeus. For Aeschylus (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Aeschylus) (Supplices 1, sqq.) Pelasgus is earthborn, as in Asius, and rules a kingdom stretching from Argos to Dodona and the Strymon; but in Prometheus (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Prometheus) 879, the "Pelasgian" land simply means Argos. Sophocles (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Sophocles) takes the same view (Inachus, fr. 2,56) and for the first time introduces the word "Tyrrhenian" into the story, apparently as synonymous with Pelasgian.

Herodotus (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Herodotus), like Homer (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Homer), has a denotative as well as a connotative use. He describes actual Pelasgians surviving and mutually intelligible (a) at Placie and Scylace on the Asiatic shore of the Hellespont (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Hellespont), and (b) near Creston (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Creston) on the Strymon; in the latter area they have "Tyrrhenian" neighbours. He alludes to other districts where Pelasgian peoples lived on under changed names; Samothrace (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Samothrace) and Antandrus in Troas are probably instances of this. In Lemnos and Imbros (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Imbros) he describes a Pelasgian population who were only conquered by Athens (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Athens) shortly before soo B.C., and in this connexion he tells a story of earlier raids of these Pelasgians on Attica (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Attica), and of a temporary settlement there of Hellespontine Pelasgians, all dating from a time "when the Athenians were first beginning to count as Greeks." Elsewhere "Pelasgian" in Herodotus connotes anything typical of, or surviving from, the state of things in Greece (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Greece) before the coming of the Hellenes. In this sense all Greece was once "Pelasgic"; the clearest instances of Pelasgian survival in ritual (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Ritual) and customs and antiquities are in Arcadia, the "Ionian" districts of north-west Peloponnese, and Attica, which have suffered least from hellenization. In Athens itself the prehistoric wall of the citadel and a plot of ground close below it were venerated in the 5th century as "Pelasgian"; so too Thucydides (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Thucydides) (ii. 17). We may note that all Herodotean examples of actual Pelasgi lie round, or near, the actual Pelasgi of Homeric Thrace; that the most distant of these is confirmed by the testimony of Thucydides (iv. 106) as to the Pelasgian and Tyrrhenian population of the adjacent seaboard: also that Thucydides adopts the same general Pelasgian theory of early Greece, with the refinement that he regards the Pelasgian name as originally specific, and as having come gradually into this generic use.

Ephorus (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Ephorus), relying on Hesiodic tradition of an aboriginal Pelasgian type in Arcadia, elaborated a theory of the Pelasgians as a warrior-people spreading (like "Aryans") from a "Pelasgian home," and annexing and colonizing all the parts of Greece where earlier writers had found allusions to them, from Dodona to Crete and the Troad, and even as far as Italy (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Italy), where again their settlements had been recognized as early as the time of Hellanicus, in close connexion once more with "Tyrrhenians." The copious additional information given by later writers is all by way either of interpretation of local legends in the light of Ephorus's theory, or of explanation of the name "Pelasgoi"; as when Philochorus (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Philochorus) expands a popular etymology (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Etymology) "stork (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Stork)-folk" (w€Xaa'yoi-- it €Xap'yoi) into a theory of their seasonal migrations; or Apollodorus (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Apollodorus) says that Homer calls Zeus Pelasgian "because he is not far from every one of us," 6TL Tiffs ryes 7rEXas EaTCV. The connexion with Tyrrhenians which began with Hellanicus, Herodotus and Sophocles becomes confusion with them in the 3rd century, when the Lemnian pirates and their Attic (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Attic) kinsmen are plainly styled Tyrrhenians, and early fortress-walls in Italy (like those on the Palatine (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Palatine) in Rome) are quoted as "Arcadian" colonies.

Modern writers have either been content to restate or amplify the view, ascribed above to Ephorus, that "Pelasgian" simply means "prehistoric Greek," or have used the name Pelasgian at their pleasure to denote some one element in the mixed population of the Aegean - Thracian, Illyrian (Albanian) or Semitic. G. Sergi (Origine e diffusione della stirpe mcditerranea, Rome (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Rome), 1895; Eng. trans. The Mediterranean Race, London (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/London), 1901), followed by many anthropologists, describes as "Pelasgian" one branch of the Mediterranean or Eur-African race of mankind, and one group of types of skull (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Skull) within that race. The character of the ancient citadel wall at Athens, already mentioned, has given the name "Pelasgic masonry (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Masonry)" to all constructions of large unhewn blocks fitted roughly together without mortar (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Mortar), from Asia Minor (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Asia_Minor) to Spain (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Spain).
For another view than that here taken see ACHAEANS; also GREECE: Ancient History, § 3, " Homeric Age." BIBLIOGRAPHY. - Besides sections on the subject in all principal histories of Greece and bibliographies in G. Busolt, Gr. Geschichte, i 2 (Gotha, 1893, 164-182); and K. F. Hermann (Thumser), Gr. Staatsalterthiimer, § 6, see S. Bruck, Quae veteres de Pelasgis tradiderint (Breslau, 1884); B. Giseke, Thrakisch-pelasgische Stamme auf der Balkanhalbinsel (Leipzig, 1858); F. G. Hahn, Albanesische Studien (Jena, 1854); P. Volkmuth, Die Pe`'lasger als Semiten (Schaffhausen, 1860); H. Kiepert, Monatsbericht d. berl. Akademie (1861), pp. 114 sqq.; K. Pauli, Fine vorgriechische Inschrift auf Lemnos (Leipzig, 1886); E. Meyer, "Die Pelasger" in Forschungen z. alten Geschichte (Halle, 1892), i. 124; W. Ridgeway, Early Age of Greece (Cambridge, 1901), vol. i.; J. L. Myres, "A History of the Pelasgian Theory" (in Journal of Hellenic Studies, xxvii. 170); H. Marsh (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Marsh), Horae (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Horae) pelasgicae (Cambridge, 1815); L. Benloew, La Grbce avant les Grecs (Paris, 1877). (J. L. M.)



Pelasgians - LoveToKnow 1911 (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Pelasgians)

[Orphic_Hymn]

Researches Into the Physical History of Mankind p. 492-496
By James Cowles Prichard


Paragraph 5.—Of the Greek language, and of the language
of the Pelasgi.

The Greek language presents in its own structure a conclusive refutation of an hypothesis which represents it as of mixed formation. It displays unequivocal marks of a genuine and primitive origin, and, as Wachsmuht observes, "the strength of pure and unmixed growth, so that the subsequent external accessions, the few foreign expressions by the side of a stock of words naturally and regularly derived from simple roots, appear insulated, and incapableof transfusing themselves into the inner essence and genius of the language."
With regard to the similarity of idiom among the single tribes, which as the result of a common origin may be traced even in the mo¬difications of its dialects, Homer's testimony, and the inference to be drawn from his emphatical mention of the harsh language of the Carians and Sintians, are deserving of particular attentiou. It may safely be denied that either the simple elements of the language, or a supply of already matured forms, could have been brought with them by foreigners, which afterwards prevailed to such an extent as to supplant an anterior language in Greece.

The Greek language was then a nearly unmixed idiom, elaborated from primitive elements, which, however, were common to it and to many other Indo-European idioms both in the east and west. The laws of inflection and developement are likewise common in many instances to the Greek, the Saskrit, Latin and Moeso-Gothic.

What then was the language of the Pelasgi ? Herodotus confesses his inability to solve this question in a satisfactory manner, but he says that if he could draw an inference from the idiom spoken in certain Pelasgian towns upon the Hellespont, it must have been barbaric, that is, not Greek. The Pelasgi inhabiting Crestona, in the inland country above the Tyrrheni, on the coast of Thrace, who, as he says, had previously dwelt in Thessaly near the Dorians, and another Pelasgian tribe, who had colonised Placia and Scylace on the Hellespont, having previously been neighbours of the Athenians, as well as the people of some other Pelasgic towns, were unintelligible to all their neighbours; yet the inhabitants or Crestona understood those of Placia. From this it seems a very reasonable inference that the Pelasgic language was different from the Greek. Yet this conclusion is so fully contradicted by all that we know of the early history of Greece, that it cannot be admitted in its full and more obvious meaning.

The tribes mentioned by Herodotus were the last relics of the Pelasgian name: and the Pelasgians who at this late period spoke a peculiar idiom, must have acquired this difference or peculiarity of their speech in the course of a long separation from the great body of the people descended from the Pelasgi of the Peloponnesus and of Attica, Perhaps they only differed as the descendant of Angles and Danes in England now differ from their brethren in Holstein and Denmark.
The old Pelasgic language was doubtless the idiom that originally prevailed in the Peloponnesus among the primitive Arcadians, and the people of Argos, and the Achaeans of the northern coast, who, as Herodotus declares, were termed "Πελασγοι Αιγιαλεες", or Sea-coast Pelasgi. This language was the AEolic Greek.

I shall compare with these remarks Strabo's account of the, dialects of the Peloponnesus and the rest of Greece.
After marking the extension of the AEolic nation and of their language in other parts of Greece, that geographer adds the following remarks:

" Those people who dwelt within the isthmus," that is, in Peloponnesus, " were formerly AEolians, but they afterwards became mixed; for some Ionians from Attica got possession of AEgialus' that is, the country afterwards called Achaia, and the descendants of Hercules brought with them the Dorians, by whom Megara and many of the cities in the Peloponnesus were founded. The Ionians, however, were soon driven out again by the Achaians, who were an AEolic nation, and the two other races then remained in the Peloponnesus namely, the AEolians and the Dorians. Those who had least intercourse with the Dorians continued to speak the AEolic dialect; this was the case with the Arcadians and Eleans; the former were a people of the mountains, and their country did not fall under the lot; and the latter were deemed sacred to Olympic Jupiter, and had lived a long time in peace; they were besides of AEolic descent, and had given entertainment to the army of Oxylus at the return of the Heraclida:. 'Hie rest speak a sort of mixed language between the two dialects, some having more of the AEolic and some less, and even now particular cities differ from each other in speech ; but they are all considered to follow the Dorian fashion, on account of the predominant power of that people." It therefore seems to be unquestionable, since the fact that Arcadia never changed its inhabitants, that the Pelasgic speech was the AEolic dialect of the Greek language. The AEolic is generally considered to be the oldest form of the Greek language, and the common original from which the other dialects deviate.

I. The Attic has several forms which are common to it and the AEolic, and which disappear in the late Attic writers, and are considered as archaisms.

2. The Ionic and Attic are modifications of one principal dialect. " We deem," says Strabo, " the Ionic dialect to be the same with the ancient Attic ; for the Attic people of those times were termed Iones, and from them originated the Iones who settled colonies in Asia, and who speak the language now termed Ionic."

3. With respect to the remaining Greek dialect, the Doric, Strabo affirms it to have been originally AEolic. He says that the Dorians inhabited a secluded tract of Mount Parnassus, and being a small tribe, and cut off from the rest of the Greeks, gradually deviated somewhat in customs and in dialect from their ancestors, who were nevertheless originally AEoles and spoke the AEolic language. Pindar confirms this remark; he calls his muse Doric and AEolic in the same ode:

......ἀλλὰ Δωρίαν ἀπὸ φόρμιγγα πασσάλου
λάμβαν᾽.......


and again:

.......ἐμὲ δὲ στεφανῶσαι
κεῖνον ἱππίῳ νόμῳ
Αἰοληΐδι μολπᾷ
χρή:.............


The Ionian branch of the Greek nation retained the name of Pelasgi longer than the AEolians and Dorians. Hence we find the Ionians termed in distinction Pelasgi by many writers; this is not only to be observed of the Ionians who colonised the coast of Achiea, and were termed Pelasgi of AEgialus, but also of their brethren of Attica. That the Peloponnesians, however, were originally AEolians or Pelasgians, we have seen abundantly proved.
It seems certain from these considerations that the Pelasgic language was AEolic Greek.

It appears from Strabo's account, that of the four Grecian tribes the AEolians were by far the most widely spread, since they occupied originally the greater part of the Peloponnesus, and all the remainder of Greece, with the exception of Attica, where the Attic dialect prevailed, and Megara and Doris, to the northward of the Corinthian gulf, where the Doric dialect was spoken. The Ionic race, originally a branch of the AEolians, was confined to the northern parts of the Peloponnesus and Attica. The Dorians, who were the first people termed Hellenes, and by whose military power and influence that name came to be extended to the rest of the Greek nation, introduced their language into the peninsula in that celebrated invasion which changed the face of Greece.


Recapitulation.

The Pelasgi appear to have been the earliest known inhabitants of several parts of Greece, particularly of the inland parts, for it was in later times that they became, or rather that some tribes of them became a seafaring people and dwelt upon the islands and coasts. In Peloponnesus they possessed Argolis and Arcadia, as likewise the northern coast, afterwards called Achaia, when they were designated Pelasgi Littorales, or Πελασγοι Αιγιαλεες. That all the inhabitants of the Peloponnesus were Pelasgi we cannot affirm, but as the language of the Pelasgi was AEolic Greek, and as this was the general idiom of the peninsula, it is probable that the whole of that country was peopled by nations allied to the Pelasgi by consanguinity. The Pelasgi possessed also Attica and Thessaly. Boeotia, Locris, and AEtolia seem to have been inhabited by Leleges and other races reported to have been distinct from the Pelasgi. Some of these were wandering maritime tribes who spread themselves over the coasts of Greece and Asia Minor.

When the people of Attica and different parts of the Peloponnesus and Boeotia, either by the accession of new colonies or by the gradual progress of social improvement, and by intercourse with more cultivated nations, had become civilised and dwelt in cities, and formed different states which assumed new names, their connexion with the old Pelasgi became loosened and gradually forgotten. The Arcadians were the only people in the southern parts of Greece who remained unchanged. In Thessaly the aboriginal Pelasgi were overcome and expelled by more warlike and enterprising tribes, and they sought refuge, as we have seen, in the countries lying both towards the east and west.
After these revolutions and during some ages, the Grecian people had no collective name ; they were termed Argives, Achaeans, Danaidae, indifferently.
It was in a simitar manner, and owing to the superior military influence of the Hellenes, that the name of that tribe became subsequently predominant. The account of this change given by Thucydides is well known.
The Tyreenian or Tyrrhenian Pelasgi were particular wandering bands of the Pelasgic race, who came in time to differ in language from their stationary brethren, so that they were in the days of Herodotus unintelligible to the Greeks.

On the whole, we may conclude that the Pelasgi were the original stock from which the different stems of the Greek population ramified. That the other contributory races were originally akin to the Pelasgi, we may infer from the unity of language in all parts of Greece. The Pelasgi spoke the old dialect, the mother tongue, if we may so term it, the idiom which gave birth to all the other Grecian dialects.

[olvios]

Herodotus, The Histories (ed. A. D. Godley) (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126;layout=;qu ery=chapter%3D%2356;loc=1.57.1)

LVI. When he heard these verses, Croesus was pleased with them above all, for he thought that a mule would never be king of the Medes instead of a man, and therefore that he and his posterity would never lose his empire. Then he sought very carefully to discover who the mightiest of the Greeks were, whom he should make his friends. [2] He found by inquiry that the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock. These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far. [3] For in the days of king Deucalion1 it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian.2

The wanderers among the greek tribes were the Dorians who supposedly invade though in greek tradition they return as heracleids to greece.The ones who had not left like in example the Ionians were called pelasgians and athenians bragged about their autocthony.Dorians gave the new name to the culturaly and consciously though not politicaly united pelasgic nation the hellenes. The dorians being greeks thus pelasgian wandered and finally returned but with a new name the Hellenes.Among all those people of the same nation the most renowned gave this nation their new name - Hellenes.

The text above illustrates that the finest of all Greeks were the all the hellenes(dorians) & Ionians(pelasgians).Later the Doric hellene tribe gained more glory and renown and from her all the nation was called "Hellenes".

[olvios]

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Maps%20and%20more/GREEKMIGHT.jpg?t=1178655924

[akritas]

Olvios
Herodotus claim or better conclude also that Pelasgians were "barbarians"

the Pelasgians spoke a language which was not Greek (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126;query=chap ter%3D%2357;layout=;loc=1.56.1) (I-57)

So in my opinion Herodotus was not sure either for the origin of the Pelsgians and definetly were not Greek speakers.

[olvios]

He relates this in comparison with the form that language has taken at his time.His comment being lingual does not stop him from considering them greek stock thus hellenes.Not his type of modern(ancient or mythic)Greek speakers but Greeks nonetheless.He states that lacedaemonians,athenians,ionians,doric,hellenic,pe lasgian are all greeks inspite their differences.Also note that his same blood,language,religion definition on ethnos is his modern(ancient) definition of it.He does not doubt that the above were and are greeks just that from his time and beyond the perception of ethnos would be thus.He makes a liguistic charakterization not an ethnic one as he illustrates they were with no doubt greeks.

[akritas]

btw perseus library is WRONG

He found by inquiry that the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock.
These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first (Athenians) a Pelasgian and the second (Lacedamonians) a Hellenic people.

Translation from Kaktus


Οι έρευνες του έδειξαν ότι οι Λακεδαιμόνιοι ήταν δυνατότεροι από τους Δωριείς και οι Αθηναίοι από τους Ίωνες.
Αυτοί οι δύο, από τους οποίους οι πρώτοι (Λακεδαιμόνιοι, και όχι Δωριείς) καταγόταν από το Πελασγούς ενώ οι άλλοι (Αθηναίοι, και όχι Ίωνες) από τους Έλληνες ήταν οι επικρατέστεροι.


http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/908/scan10078an2.jpg

[Ptolemy]

btw perseus library is WRONG

Quote:
He found by inquiry that the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock.
These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first (Athenians) a Pelasgian and the second (Lacedamonians) a Hellenic people.

Translation from Kaktus


Quote:
Οι έρευνες του έδειξαν ότι οι Λακεδαιμόνιοι ήταν δυνατότεροι από τους Δωριείς και οι Αθηναίοι από τους Ίωνες.
Αυτοί οι δύο, από τους οποίους οι πρώτοι (Λακεδαιμόνιοι, και όχι Δωριείς) καταγόταν από το Πελασγούς ενώ οι άλλοι (Αθηναίοι, και όχι Ίωνες) από τους Έλληνες ήταν οι επικρατέστεροι.


Translation from Kaktus

To perseus exei sta ellinika to parakato.

historeôn de heuriske Lakedaimonious kai Athênaious proechontas tous men tou Dôrikou geneos tous de tou Iônikou. tauta gar ên ta prokekrimena, eonta to archaion to men Pelasgikon to de Hellênikon ethnos

to proexo shmainei "krato", "proigoumai" alla kai "eimai anoteros". To "htan dunatoteroi apo tous Dorieis" tous diaforopoiei apo tous Dorieis. Mipos grafei "htan oi dunatoteroi..."?

[Ptolemy]

Diabase ksana ti leei o kaktos.

"Οι έρευνες του έδειξαν ότι οι Λακεδαιμόνιοι ήταν δυνατότεροι από τους Δωριείς"

Otan isxurizomai px

- eimai dunatoteros apo tous Ellines (diaforopoio ton eauto mou apo autous)

- eimai O dunatoteros apo tous Ellines (eimai enas apo autous)

Etsi kai sto pio pano pou postare o akritas gia na bgazei sosto nohma eprepe na einai h metafrasi tou kaktou "Oi Lakedaimonioi itan oi dunatoteroi apo tous Dorieis"

[Euklid]

Sto 1.58: "τὸ δὲ Ἑλληνικὸν γλώσσῃ μὲν ἐπείτε ἐγένετο αἰεί κοτε τῇ αὐτῇ διαχρᾶται, ὡς ἐμοὶ καταφαίνεται εἶναι: ἀποσχισθὲν μέντοι ἀπὸ τοῦ Πελασγικοῦ ἐόν ἀσθενές, ἀπό σμικροῦ τεο τὴν ἀρχὴν ὁρμώμενον αὔξηται ἐς πλῆθος τῶν ἐθνέων, Πελασγῶν μάλιστα προσκεχωρηκότων αὐτῷ καὶ ἄλλων ἐθνέων βαρβάρων συχνῶν"


Opote to ellhniko einai sigoura kommati toy pelasgikou.

Alla to thema ths glossas menei anoixto, poios edose ti glossa stous Ellines an oxi oi pelasgoi?

Edo o herodotos sigoureyei oti apoteloume kommati ton pelasgon, alla ayto einai mono ena meros tis taytothtas. Opote mas prodiathetei gia mia organikh anaptyksh ths ellinikis glossas kai oxi imported.

[Lakonian]

Pelasgians ...Pela-another name for athena- Pelas-athenians- Lasgias Las another word for Lithos meaning rock, thefore it relates to the myth that the first born Hellenics were from Lithos that were thrown from Decaulion and his wife.

Gian- Gia- earth -earth born. PELAS-GIANS.

Pelasgians were the first tribes after Atlantians on a mythical level. Doesnt make it any less true though.

[Lakonian]

Heres another view of what Pelasgians ment:

Pelasgians
by Daphne Elliott
Before recorded Time, (c. 900 BCE) but during an active migration era of prehistoric Greece (c. 10,000 BCE), a people came into the Pelaponnesus, presumably from the north, and settled around the eastern Mediterranian coast and its islands, Sicily, Lamapadusa etc. They were called "Pelasgians," which has several specific meanings, depending on which tranlation one might be reading.
The word pelasgian means from the sea. It also means hairy. And to top it all, it means springing from the earth... sticks embedded in the earth that spring up in human form to populate their surroundings. From this we can conjure up a race of people that came from the sea, wore beards, and were "indigenous." Hence, they were the aborigines who settled the Pelaponnesus, coming before the Dorians. One might say they were the aboriginal ancestors of what we now call "Hellenes" -- today's Greeks as they have come down through the ages.

The Pelasgians were successful in establishing themselves and their culture in the land and sea. Apparently they espoused the existing cult worship of Hera, as there is still to be seen the ruins of a Temple dedicated to Hera which they built. They are credited also with being admirable house builders, taking a different approach from the old, cramped design. Instead of a hut, they used large stones for the base making a drier, more lasting habitat, which was quickly adopted by their neighbors.

They remain important in the grand sweep of Greek pre-history. Some ancient myths are even said to have begun with them. The myth of Helios' harnessing the sun to his chariot is said to date back to the Pelasgians.

This view is basically like mine, yet i back up that Pelas is Athena, because we have the myth of her playing with her friend Pelas (pelatis) servant if you ike and Athena accidently killed her, she then dubbed herself Pelas in honor of her. This backs up that Athenians were the first settlers of Greece.

Heres the myth of Lycaon son of Pelasgus:


Lycaon

by Dr Alena Trckova-Flamee Ph.D.
Lycaon was the son of Pelasgus, living in the region of Arcadia, which was called Pelasgia in ancient times. According to tradition, he raised civilization in this region to a higher level than previously during the period of his father's reign. He also was the founder of the town Lycosoura in the mountains of Lycaeon and there he became the first king, and started the cult of Zeus Lycaeus and the Lycaean Games.

It is said that Lycaon was the father of no less than twenty-two sons and sometimes this number was even increased to fifty; all of his sons were known as the founders of numerous towns in Pelasgia. Lycaon had also one daughter Callisto, who became one of the loves of Zeus and the mother of Arcas.

According to some ancient authors Lycaon made Zeus very angry because he sacrificed on the god's altar a boy in honor to Zeus himself. Other writers said that he invited Zeus to a banquet and offered him a meal, containing meat from a roasted human being. Finally, there is also a story about the sons of Lycaon, who cooked soup from the entrails of a sheep and a goat, together with the entrails of their brother Nictimos. They presented this meal to Zeus, who was visiting them as a simple traveler. Due to any of these reasons Zeus transformed Lycaon and his sons into wolves (in Greek lykos means "wolf") and also he sent a thunderbolt which struck Lycaon's house.

Pausanias noted that someone else was transformed into a wolf as well (in the same manner as Lycaon) during a sacrifice to Zeus Lycaeus. People believed that a person who became a wolf could be again changed into a man if he did not eat any human meat during ten years, otherwise he had to stay in the shape of a wolf for the rest of his life.

According to the myths, the story about Lycaon from Lycosoura and his sons happened before the great Flood, in the period when Cecrops was the Athenian king. Cecrops put on the sacrificial altar only pelanoi (home made cakes). They said that the primitive manners used by the Pelasgian tribes -- like human sacrifices -- were one of the reasons why Zeus decided to exterminate mankind by a Flood. Nevertheless, the people in Arcadia survived and gave raise to other mythical stories later on.

Mount Lycaeon in Arcadia became one of the most important places to worship Zeus. According to one version of the myth, Zeus was born or was educated there, close to the place called Cretea. A sanctuary was built near the summit of the mountain, with a sacred section reserved specially for Zeus; nobody could come or enter it, and cult ceremonies were performed there in great secrecy.

Unfortunately today only a few ruins of this sanctuary can be observed, together with a large place which functioned as the stadium for the Lycaean Games. Also numerous names associated with the mythological events are preserved unto this day in this beautiful region between the Arcadian mountains.


Overall what is the point of even questioning if the Pelasgians were Greek, do you guys have doubts? If so on what grounds with sort of evidence?

[olvios]

Δεν διαφοροποιει λεει απο το ποιο γενος ειναι ο καθενας.αναμεσα στους δωριεις δυνατοτεροι οι λακεδαιμονιοι........τσαπατσουλιες του κακτου. προερχοντας τους μεν δε το του Δωρικου γενους λεει το αρχαιο και αυτοι μεταφρασαν τα τρια μου."ταυτα γαρ ην τα προκεκριμενα ,εοντα το αρχαιο μεν πελασγικο το δε ελληνικο εθνος". Λεει ΤΟ ΑΡΧΑΙΟΤΕΡΟ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΤΟ (ΙΩΝΕΣ)ΠΕΛΑΣΓΙΚΟ ΤΟ ΑΛΛΟ ΤΟ (ΔΩΡΙΕΙΣ)ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟ ΕΘΝΟΣ.
πιο κατω λεει οτι οι δωριεις ειναι οι ελληνες.βασιλεια του δωρου γιου του ελληνα.λαθος κανει ο κακτος.


δεν κανουμε κανενα ξεκαθαρισμα
__________________Oloi ηταν πελασγοι οι ιονες οι αιολεις..........εκτος απο τους δωριεις που ταξιδευαν και αλλαξαν ονομα.

[Lakonian]

Katalava.

I have another theory but im not sure if i should post it in here, but since we are on the topic of origin.

I was thinking to myself lately, what was the migration affect of the Trojan War, his would have no doubt afefcted many people , 20 years of trying to resettle etc.

What if the Trojan War , when the Greeks had obviously exiled the Trojans they went on to settle outside and north of Hellas, making Tribes such as the Nords, Romans(they claim they are), Celts, etc?

I mean being outside of the highly developed Greeks they would have been snubbed of our progress , thus making them barbaric in language and character, and so we have had so much similiar customs, text, but our developement in education is what surpassed them? I dont know how to put in words , but does it not make sense in terms of dating? 2000-1500 B.C

Note: Im saying the diaspora of the Trojans and some other Greeks would have had a mass affect on the Northern areas, Greeks mixing with barbaric.

Customs
Religion
Clothing
Writing
Language

We can put this with the major war of Atlantians VS Athenians, the war and natural disaster would have had the same affect. Pushing Greeks everywhere, Athenians were there always according to Plato or Solon.

This was told to the Greeks by an Egyptian priest who said to Solon you Greeks are like children( meaning that Greeks at that period had far less knowledge than there ancestors).
He explained that the Athenians before them had phenomenal acomplishments,and that everytime we have major wars/displacemnet, we return to learn from scratch again like children?

This can explain the constant overlapping of different Greek tribes in Greece, one considered itslef much more superior than the other e.g Athenians vs Spartans.

The point is we all started as Pelasgians, in the geographical area which we call Greece today, before that, mono o theos xeri, i know Atlantis theory is very dark, but our text begs to differ.

How do teh Atlantians fit in with the Pelasgians, were they tribe of Atlantis, advanced race, thus they clashed?(Pelasgians are the Athenians without doubt)

[Lakonian]

Καντε ξεκαθαρισμα τα ποστ και συνεχιζουμε.

Ti enois

[Euklid]

My theory is that:

The Hellines are parts of the Minoan, Mycenean, Pelasgians combined with other foreign tribes, which finally resulted to an amalgamation of unique distinct identity.

The questions that remains are:

Was their language a product of chaotic evolution entirely or was it built upon someone specifically?

What was the base group that assimilated those people or was it similarly chaotic?

The chaotic theory hold some credence in my opinion...since Herodotus tells us that the Hellines always spoke Hellinic at least orally, meaning that he doesn't give credit to the language to any proto-group specifically.

The religion is also another fact that gives credibility to the chaotic evolution, as everything begins from Chaos.

Propably the ancient Greeks viewed themselves superior for that reason that they were a fusion of bits and pieces, where none of the unifying bits and pieces held a dominant position in their identity but had become something completely unique.

For example in Chemistry you put H2 and O to make water. But you cannot say its because the H that water exists nor because the O, its because of their fusion that water exists. Now if you add salt into water it remains water but salty.

It does not become another entity. So probably Herodotus is trying to tell us, that Hellas is a completely unique chemical reaction similar to water, and any addition from now on the main body will just alter its composition but it will not change its chemical structure. It will remain water in other words, and if something is added then it will become salty, or sweet but not beer.

[Lakonian]

Euklid that is interesting teory but we are forgeting timelines here, you say its combination of tribes that existed with the 3rd , 2nd and 1st millenium, but what about the Neolithic Greeks? We have excavations of buildings that date back to Neolithic, 7000B.C this people spoke, and im sure it was Greek, perhaps not the Pericles Dialect if you like, but it was Greek.

Although carbon test have shown that there was activity in Knossos 6500B.C

You are combining the Mycenean , pelasgian , Minoan as different breeds of languages?Or different types of dialect?

Neolithic Europe is the time between the Mesolithic and Bronze Age periods in Europe, roughly from 7000 BC (the approximate time of the first farming societies in Greece) to ca. 1700 BC (the beginning of the Bronze Age in northwest Europe). The duration of the Neolithic varies from place to place, its end marked by the introduction of bronze implements: in southeast Europe it is approximately 4000 years (i.e., 7000 BC–3000 BC); in Northwest Europe it is just under 3000 years (ca. 4500 BC–1700 BC).

If we are to find the source of the Greek language we must use Mythological scenarios. You cannot ignore the Atlantian era which is about 9000B.C.....

we can only speculate, or rest on mythology..

There is an artifact called the Phaistos disc, which is sometimes classified as an early, if not the first, document of movable type printing. The German professor for linguistics Brekle, who defines typography as movable type printing,writes in his article 'The typographical principle' in the renowned Gutenberg-Jahrbuch:

An early clear incidence for the realisation of the typographical principle is the notorious Phaistos Disc (ca. 1800-1600 BC). If the disc is, as assumed, a textual representation, we are really dealing with a “printed” text, which fulfills all definitional criteria of the typographical principle. The spiral sequencing of the graphematical units, the fact that they are impressed in a clay disc (blind printing!) and not imprinted are merely possible technological variants of textual representation. The decisive factor is that the material “types” are proven to be repeatedly instantiated on the clay disc.
Other authors, who are primarily concerned with its decipherment have called the disc in passing comments as "the first movable type", too. Having been variously dated between 1850 and 1350 BC, the Phaistos Disc precedes later inventions of movable type by more than two millenia.

Thsi artifact dates back almot 2000B.C....Greeks could hav ebeen speakingthe language for who knows how long, but wecannot place the Pelasgians at 2000 B.C...they are indeed the survivours of the Atlantian tragedy.

[Euklid]

You are combining the Mycenean , pelasgian , Minoan as different breeds of languages?Or different types of dialect?

This is the question, i cant answer this.

For the Minoans and Myceneans we can be sure that they spoke the Greek tongue. For the Pelasgians we are sure that they didnt speak the same tongue but nevertheless they are part of the cocktail.

[olvios]

Definition of ethnicity in pre-classical times is irrelevant of languages as himself proclaims all the above are greeks and since herodotus also assumes on this linguisticly about the details i take it as a greek dialect one of many that formed the classical greek Attic language and the rest.

[Lakonian]

Definition of ethnicity in pre-classical times is irrelevant of languages as himself proclaims all the above are greeks and since herodotus also assumes on this linguisticly about the details i take it as a greek dialect one of many that formed the classical greek Attic language and the rest.

Hold on, ethinicity was Greek( obviously they werent baptised as Hellenics as yet) but language would have been Greek by definition. What evidence do you have that our language was not continous?

Linguists all over the world proclaim that the Greeks and the Chinese are the only ones that have had there language unaltered till today, pronoucing is a different matter, its still was Greek.

Our language has a documented history of 3,500 years, the longest of any single language . I believe dated further back due to the recording ancient hyroglyphs found on the wheel of Phaistos, symbols were used to represent the words, why are we not looking at this?

What about Linear A? Was this not Greek? It predates Mycenean times.This language has been dubbed Minoan or Eteocretan, and corresponds to a period in Cretan history prior to a series of invasions by Mycenean Greeks around 1450 BC.

As for the Pelasgians we cannot speak about something that is only refered in Myths, god knows how long they date back, but if we look at references to them they were aborigines, they were the first, we are talking as far back as Neolithic times, can we not seriously say they spoke a dialect of Greek?

Following areas which contained Linear A:
Apoudoulou
Arkalochori
Arkhanes
Armenoi
Gournia
Hagia Triada has yielded the largest corpus of Linear A inscriptions
Haghios Stephanos
Kardamoutsa
Kato Syme (also Kato Symi)
Kea
Khania
Knossos
Kophinas
Larani
Mallia (also Malia)
Miletos (also Miletus)
Melos
Mochlos (also Mokhlos)
Mount Juktas (also Iouktas)
Mycenae
Nerokourou
Palaikastro
Petras
Petsophas
Phaistos
Platanos
Poros Herakleiou
Prassa
Pseira
Psychro (also Psykhro)
Pyrgos
Pyrgos Tylissos
Samothrace
Skhinia
Sitia
Skoteino Cave
Tel Haror
Thera ----Note Thera(Santorini) is also believed to belinked to the sunken Atlantis.
Tiryns
Traostalos
Trullos (also Troullos)
Vrysinas
Zakros

Linear A words:
J)A-DI-KI-TE-TE- / JA-DI-KI-TU = words related to Mount Dikte ?
DA-MA-TE : Already Proto-Greek *Dāmāter (cf. Linear B da-ma-te at Pylos = Cl. Dēmēter (Demeter)? This inscription is from Kythera.
KU-RO : whole, total (vel. sim.) (< PIE *kwol- or Semitic *kul? or Etruscan churu).
KI-RO : missing, debt (?).
MA+RU (ligature of the two signs): wool, same as later Greek mallos. Possibly a Minoan loanword in Greek. Possibly related to Sumerian bar-lu best quality wool blend.
PA-DE : a theonym, appearing on Linear B tablets as well (as pa-de / pa-ze).
PA-I-TO : place name, Phaistos. The same name is common on Linear B documents.
PO-TO-KU-RO : grand(?) total(vel. sim.).
RU+JA (the two signs joined together into a ligature): pomegranate, same as Classic Greek rhoia (?).
SE-TO-I-JA : place name, which occurs in Linear B as well.
SU-KI-RI-TA : *Sukrita, a place name which occurs in Linear B as well; the town survives today as Sybrita

Im juts trying to find out how far back we our language dates, is there a limit?

they Alpha is in our alphabet because a new born makes the sound A?

Alpha the beginning(newborn)

Omega is often used to denote the last, the end, or the ultimate limit of a set, in contrast to Alpha.

How were the symbolic (hyroglyphs) of words pronouced on the Phaistos wheel?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/PhaistosDiskLarge.jpg/400px-PhaistosDiskLarge.jpg

[olvios]

Again he compares on the differences in dialect of the pelasgian as he sees it today(in his time) with the rest of the greek dialects.As he assumes and isnt a real linguist as we have today so we can attest that it is simply an exaggerated assumption on the differences .The dialect spoken by pelasgians was merely a greek dialect and seeing it as a greater part of the greek language as the athenians who were pelasgian formed a great part of the greek language by evolving it to the attic dialect in classical times. Herodotus could only be reffering to small pockets of population who in his time if they even existed spoke a greek dialect of greater rarity then others. It sounded strange and he gave this arbitrary explanation of it .
The greeknes of the pelasgians however is not disputed or doubted.It is a fact.

[Lakonian]

Again he compares on the differences in dialect of the pelasgian as he sees it today(in his time) with the rest of the greek dialects.As he assumes and isnt a real linguist as we have today so we can attest that it is simply an exaggerated assumption on the differences .The dialect spoken by pelasgians was merely a greek dialect and seeing it as a greater part of the greek language as the athenians who were pelasgian formed a great part of the greek language by evolving it to the attic dialect in classical times. Herodotus could only be reffering to small pockets of population who in his time if they even existed spoke a greek dialect of greater rarity then others. It sounded strange and he gave this arbitrary explanation of it .
The greeknes of the pelasgians however is not disputed or doubted.It is a fact.


Ok Olvios, lets go a little deeper brother. Are we an autonomos people? Indo- European(i think is such crap)? How far can we trace our peoples? Neolithic findings show Linear A inscriptions closely related to Linear B...glyphs aswell. Do you believe in the Atlantis theory?

[Orphic_Hymn]

Euklid that is interesting teory but we are forgeting timelines here, you say its combination of tribes that existed with the 3rd , 2nd and 1st millenium, but what about the Neolithic Greeks? We have excavations of buildings that date back to Neolithic, 7000B.C this people spoke, and im sure it was Greek, perhaps not the Pericles Dialect if you like, but it was Greek.

I like your passion with the issue but lets not turn this into something forged out of Ilyov's vivid imagination.
Sure some cultural aspects from the Neolithic like the Maiandros, burials with an "ovolos" (even though it was a rock) in the mouth, foritfications of cities, six male and six female figures in burials which could suggest a primitive pantheon coud be considered connections, but language? No re seis.

Sure they had to communitcate and I'm quite possitive that they indeed did, but titling this "language" Hellenic or even its ancestor is really far fetched.



What about Linear A? Was this not Greek?
Well various theories exist and even though the predominant is that it is Hellenic, until its deciphered and the decipherment is internationally recognized, we can't call it as such no matter what we believe.


Linear A words:

Where do these "words" come from and how does the individual that claims to have managed to have "translated" them as such, propose to explain his/her inability to correctly "translate" all finds of Linear A' ?

What I mean is that you can't decipher only some "words" and be unable to decipher all finds of the script in question.

If we are to find the source of the Greek language we must use Mythological scenarios. You cannot ignore the Atlantian era which is about 9000B.C.....

Yeah "myths are history in disguise" and they should be used for entertaintional as well as educational purposes, but the second only when archeologic finds may support them. Do we have archeologic proof of these "Atlantians" ? As far as I know, a bunch of theories yes, but beyond doubt proof, no.

[Lakonian]

I like your passion with the issue but lets not turn this into something forged out of Ilyov's vivid imagination.
Sure some cultural aspects from the Neolithic like the Maiandros, burials with an "ovolos" (even though it was a rock) in the mouth, foritfications of cities, six male and six female figures in burials which could suggest a primitive pantheon coud be considered connections, but language? No re seis.

Sure they had to communitcate and I'm quite possitive that they indeed did, but titling this "language" Hellenic or even its ancestor is really far fetched.



Well various theories exist and even though the predominant is that it is Hellenic, until its deciphered and the decipherment is internationally recognized, we can't call it as such no matter what we believe.




Where do these "words" come from and how does the individual that claims to have managed to have "translated" them as such, propose to explain his/her inability to correctly "translate" all finds of Linear A' ?

What I mean is that you can't decipher only some "words" and be unable to decipher all finds of the script in question.



Yeah "myths are history in disguise" and they should be used for entertaintional as well as educational purposes, but the second only when archeologic finds may support them. Do we have archeologic proof of these "Atlantians" ? As far as I know, a bunch of theories yes, but beyond doubt proof, no.

Are you Greek brother?

[Orphic_Hymn]

Are you Greek brother?

Say what :wacko:

[Lakonian]

Ise Ellinas?

[Orphic_Hymn]

Ise Ellinas?

Continue, where are you going at ??

[Lakonian]

Mono rotao, tipota, just ithela na xero thats all.


Anyways OLVIOS, WHEN YOU GET THE CHANCE CAN YOU ANSWER ME?

[Orphic_Hymn]

No its not all, if you can't give me a responce in a totally friendly discussion, then imagine what will happen when someone with a "not so friendly approach" contradicts your statements.

Can we discuss it "h pali 8a me rwtas gia thn katagwgh mou" ??

[Lakonian]

Contradicted? Whatever brother.Orphic, it seems i have struck a nerve, it was just a question my friend, your thoughts on my theories are valid, i cannot deny this, but who is right and who is wrong on this...well...we can carry on till we meet in Hades, i think id rather read OLVIOS 's thoughts on this. Our discussion is over ok? You may ask me anything you like and we can tke it from there, im sorry if i have threatened you with my question.

[olvios]

Ok Olvios, lets go a little deeper brother. Are we an autonomos people? Indo- European(i think is such crap)? How far can we trace our peoples? Neolithic findings show Linear A inscriptions closely related to Linear B...glyphs aswell. Do you believe in the Atlantis theory?

Atlantis is a myth in theoretical level and cant be mixed with the whole defining who the greeks were here.I believe it personally but dont mix it with history and in historical or mythical debates.

Indo-european theory is something i dont support but being the widely accepted one will agree on when arguing as it being the accepted theory at large.Regarding greekness and the above if you mean to explain the pelasgian case with the indoeuropean theory we know that 1)mycyneans spoke greek 2)mycynean civilization spreads to 3000 bc at least with the pellana finds though the dig is frozen.

I would go with pelasgian as herodotus differentiates it as barbaric being a greek dialect he knew litte about or sounded weird because of its rarity.And as pelasgians were Athenians the language was more greek than herodotus could have ever imagined.

Do we have a list of supposed pelasgian barbaric speakers as groups of people in ancient greece as they are mentioned by authors?

[Orphic_Hymn]

Contradicted? Whatever brother.Orphic, it seems i have struck a nerve, it was just a question my friend, your thoughts on my theories are valid, i cannot deny this, but who is right and who is wrong on this...well...we can carry on till we meet in Hades, i think id rather read OLVIOS 's thoughts on this. Our discussion is over ok? You may ask me anything you like and we can tke it from there, im sorry if i have threatened you with my question.

Questions that remained unanswered indicate the "hole" in the theory and thus we can justfully suggest that the "theory" can be contradicted.

Nerve...
re su plaka mas kaneis???.. Do recall your question to your now conveniently titled "brother", if you don't .. and then do try to and then think about the rediculous reasons you made it.

Loipon gia na teleiwnoume... proswpikh mou apopsh einai oti htan mia xara nhma prin emplakoun 8ewries peri Atlantwn kai Ellhnikhs glwssas pou omileitai apo thn Neoli8ikh h mhpws Mesoli8ikh :wacko:

Apla kai omorfa, mporei kapoios na mou para8esei apanthseis gia ta parakatw nai h ou ??


a) are there undoubtable facts that could suggest continuation of language from the Neolithic ?

b) Is Linear A' proven and internationally acknowledged as a Hellenic script, if so do provide sources and something that would indeed prove its identified as such.

c) where do the "words" posted come from (source) and has the "scholar" in question managed to decipher all texts or only specific words ?

d) is there factual proof of an Atlantis, if so, where was it situated, who lived there, culture, language...etc ?

[Lakonian]

Olvios, im not sure my friend, bu the the name "Pelasgians" first appears in the poems of Homer: the Pelasgians appear in the Iliad among the allies of Troy. In the section known to scholars as The Catalogue of Ships, which otherwise preserves a strict geographical order, they stand between the Hellespontine cities and the Thracians of south-east Europe, i.e. on the Hellespontine border of Thrace (2.840-843). Homer calls their town or district "Larissa" and characterises it as fertile, and its inhabitants as celebrated for their spearsmanship. He records their chiefs as Hippothous and Pylaeus, sons of Lethus son of Teutamus. Iliad, 10.428-429, describes their camping ground between the town of Troy and the sea; but this obviously proves nothing about their habitat in time of peace.

Odyssey, 17.175-177, places the Pelasgians in Crete, together with two apparently indigenous and two immigrant peoples (Achaeans and Dorians), but gives no indication to which class the Pelasgians belong. Lemnos (Iliad, 7.467; 14. 230) has no Pelasgians, but a Minyan dynasty. Two other passages (Iliad, 2.681-684; 16.233-235) apply the epithet "Pelasgic" to a district called Argos about Mount Othrys in southern Thessaly, and to the temple of Zeus at Dodona. But neither passage mentions actual Pelasgians; Hellenes and Achaeans specifically people the Thessalian Argos, and Dodona hosts Perrhaebians and Aenianes (Iliad, 2.750) who are nowhere described as Pelasgian. It looks therefore as if "Pelasgian" were here used connotatively, to mean either "formerly occupied by Pelasgians" or simply "of immemorial age."

Strabo quotes Hesiod as expanding on the Homeric phrase, calling Dodona "seat of Pelasgians" (fr. 225); he speaks also of an eponymous Pelasgus, the father of the culture-hero of Arcadia, Lycaon. After Hesiod, a number of early authors flesh out his brief statement. An early genealogist, Asius, describes Pelasgus as the first man, literally born of the earth to create a race of men. An early poet, Hecataeus, makes Pelasgus king of Thessaly (expounding Iliad, 2.681-684); Acusilaus applies this Homeric passage to the Peloponnesian Argos, and engrafts the Hesiodic Pelasgus, father of Lycaon, into a Peloponnesian genealogy.

Hellanicus repeats this identification a generation later, and identifies this Argive or Arcadian Pelasgus with the Thessalian Pelasgus of Hecataeus. Aeschylus regards Pelasgus as earthborn (Supplices I, sqq.), as in Asius, and ruler of a kingdom stretching from Argos to Dodona and the Strymon; but in Prometheus 879, the "Pelasgian" land simply means Argos. Sophocles takes the same view (Inac/jus, fragment. 256) and for the first time introduces the word "Tyrrhenian" (bringing the Etruscans) into the story, apparently as synonymous with "Pelasgians".

Why did Herodutos consider Pelasgians as non Greek? I must admoit alot of th thigs he has writen i dont agree with I mean there group name is Greek, it simply means as i have stated earlier that pela is another name for Athena ( thus they were first Athenians) and Las is another word for Lithos Rock earth, earth born, they were simply greek aborigines.And here we can say that could have been the Neolithic Greeks! why not?

But again it is said they were sailors aswell, which is why i argue that they are very much linked to the Atlantians.

[Euklid]

Orphea, stou Platona tous nomous.

O Kleinias einai Kritikos etsi, gnorizoume oti stin epohi tou h Kriti milouse to doriko idioma, alla oi nomoi tous den einai Dorikoi, alla Minoikoi.

Pisteyeis oti ayto that mporouse na einai ena akoma epixeirhma gia thn ellhnikothta toy Minoikou politismou?

[Lakonian]

OLVIOS

There are modern authors that support the neolithic Greeks as being the Pelasgians.

Look for a book by J. Melaart. The Neolithic of the Near East, London, 1975.

You will see what im talking about.

Also, Early Neolithic in Greece by
Catherine Perles

Small Intro:

Farmers made a sudden and dramatic appearance in Greece around 7000 BC, bringing with them new ceramics and crafts, and establishing settled villages. They were Europe's first farmers, and their settlements provide the link between the first agricultural communities in the Near East and the subsequent spread of the new technologies to the Balkans and on to Western Europe. Catherine Perles argues that the stimulus for the spread of agriculture to Europe was a colonisation movement involving small groups of maritime peoples. Drawing evidence from a wide range of archaeological sources, including often neglected 'small finds', and introducing daring new perspectives on funerary rituals and the distribution of figurines, she constructs a complex and subtle picture of early Neolithic societies, overturning the traditional view that these societies were simple and self-sufficient.

Note she calls them maritime people which many scholars agree that Pelasgians were sea people aswell.


The evidence is alarming to say the least in these books, it also goes on to say how Pelasgians also made the first Chariot.

[olvios]

Herodutos consides Pelasgians as Greeks with a barbaric dialect or a greek one that sounds like a barbaric one.

[Lakonian]

Franchthi Cave (or Frankhthi cave, Greek Σπήλαιον Φράγχθη) in the Peloponnese, in the southeastern Argolid, is a cave overlooking the Argolic Gulf opposite the Greek village of Koilada.

The cave was occupied from the palaeolithic c. 20,000 BP through the Mesolithic and Neolithic, being abandoned about 3000 BC (Middle Neolithic).

Obsidian items from the cave have been traced to the island of Melos 80 miles away by sea, which indicates long distance sea travel. Around 5800 BC evidence of domesticated animals and plants (emmer and einkron) appears in the archaeological record at the cave.

The earth born Pelasgians who dwelled there before moving around?

[Lakonian]

This also backs further that the Neolithics were the Pelasgians who eventualy progressed and began sailing to Crete and other places in Greece?



Franchthi Cave is located in southeastern Argolid, across a small bay from the modern Greek village of Koilada. It is by far the longest recorded continuous occupational sequence from any one site in Greece. It is unique for having unbroken series of deposits spanning the period from ca. 20,000 B.C. down to ca. 3000 B.C. Excavation at the site began in 1967 and ended in 1976. The dates for the various phases of occupation in the cave are from radiocarbon analysis of a total of over fifty samples, the largest number of radiocarbon samples from any prehistoric site in Greece. The earliest radiocarbon date is ca. 20,000 B.C. for the Upper Paleolithic, the latest near 3000 B.C. for the Final Neolithic.

In the Paleolithic Period (ca. 20,000 – 8300 B.C.) inhabitants of the cave were probably seasonal hunter-gatherers. There is no definite evidence of plant gathering before ca. 11,000 B.C., although large numbers of seeds of the Boraginaceae family were found which may have come from plants gathered to furnish soft "bedding" or for dye, which their roots may have supplied. First appearing at ca. 11,000 B.C. are lentils, vetch, pistachios and almonds. Then ca. 10,500 B.C. and still well within the Upper Paleolithic Period appear a few very rare seeds of wild oats and wild barley. Neither becomes common until ca. 7000 B.C. At this time there is no evidence for habitation of the cave during the winter. The typical tool of this time is the backed bladelet, a tiny multi-purpose-cutting tool, but small end-scrapers (for removing the flesh from hides) are also common. There is no pottery or architecture at this time and also no burials have been found.

In the Mesolithic Period: (ca. 8300 – 600 B.C.) the plant remains are much the same as in the preceding Paleolithic Period, with the exceptions that wild pears and a few peas begin to appear ca. 7300 B.C. and that wild oats and barley become common after 7000 B.C. The disappearance of the equid and caprine bones from the faunal assemblage, as well as an increase in the number of pistachios, all taking place ca. 8000 B.C. suggest a change of environment to open forests. There is also the possibility, however, that the change in the animal bones represents a change in the hunting preferences or practices of the cave’s inhabitants.

The second phase of the Mesolithic is characterized by the appearance of large quantities of large fish bones and the appearance of substantially larger quantities of obsidian from Melos as a material in the local chipped stone industry. These two developments imply that deep-sea fishing may have been done for the first time. Small, geometrically shaped tools (microliths) now characterize the chipped stone industry. There is still no pottery or architecture.

The earliest burial found at Franchthi is of a Lower Mesolithic date: a 25-year-old male was buried in a contracted position in a shallow pit near the mouth of the cave. The pit was covered with fist-sized stones but there were no burial goods. Further examination in 1989 of the human bone found throughout the cave resulted in the realization that there were five other burials throughout the cave. The bones were of different age groups, which leads to the conclusion that the inhabitants of the cave lived there on a permanent basis.

The beginning of the Neolithic Period (6000 – 5000 B.C.) at Franchthi Cave is characterized by the appearance of domesticated forms of sheep and goat, and the appearance of domesticated forms of wheat, barley and lentil. Also there was the appearance of polished stone tools and a significant increase in the number of grinding stones (for grinding grain) and sickle elements along with other edges used for cutting plants. Pottery had finally appeared in this era. The pottery of this time was dark and monochrome and mostly consisted of hole-mouthed jars and deep bowls. Judging by the size and shape of the pottery it was not used for cooking or storage but rather for display.

During this time, occupation began outside of the cave which brought the first signs of architecture, a sort of retaining wall. Blades seem to be more popular and fishhooks appear for the first time. An infant was also found buried with a clay vase, which may signify some sort of status system.

The wild oats, barley, lentils, pears and peas disappear; emmer wheat and cultivated or domesticated forms of barley and lentil occur for the first time. It is unknown whether the new plant forms were brought from elsewhere or developed locally from wild forms.

The Middle Neolithic (ca. 5000 – 4500 B.C.) is distinguished from the proceeding period by minor changes in the pottery. Potters had learned to purify their clay more thoroughly and to fire their products at higher temperatures and in larger batches, which required the stacking of vessels during the firing process with more carefully controlled conditions. There was also the use of a finer more lustrous, reddish slip or wash on the pottery. Patterns also became more linear although, 50% to 65% of the total pottery of this time still remained solid colored. For the first time, truly coarse clay pastes were used to produce pots fired at lower temperatures than the finer wares and having less carefully finished surfaces. These "course wares" seemed to function as cookware.

The Late Neolithic Period (4500 – 400 B.C.) is also distinguished by its changes in pottery. The pottery of this period is dull when compared to the lustrous paint of the previous period. The dullness is from the manganese-based paint, which has no luster and also does not vary in color when fired whereas the iron-based paints used in the previous period did. A new class of pottery appears referred to as Fine Black-burnished Ware, which was often decorated with fugitive white paint which usually survives only as a "ghost" or "negative" on the black-burnished surface.

In the chipped stone, barbed or barbed-and-tanged arrowheads appear, but are also seen as late as the beginning of the Early Bronze Age.

The last period at Franchthi Cave is the Final Neolithic (ca. 4000 – 3000 B.C.) and is viewed by many scholars as no more than a later stage of the Late Neolithic. The pottery of this period is a variety of odd handle types and a preference for plastic, as opposed to painted, decoration. Small amounts of odd wares for example, red-on-white painted, crusted, dark slipped-and-burnished and pattern-burnished also occur during this period.

In chipped stone, large triangular arrowheads of flint, bifacially flaked, are characteristic. Obsidian now accounts for 95% of the chipped stone at Franchthi. For the first time at Franchthi, the buried population of this time consists both of adults and children and both female and male. In the earlier periods the adult burials appeared to be secondary while the child burials were primary.

A few odd bits of Bronze Age material suggest that the cave had been visited sporadically over the next two millennia. Finds of specialized votive material at the back of the cave show that it served some sort of cult purpose in Classical times, but never was of residence to anyone after that. Franchthi Cave was abandoned around 3000 B.C. because of the steady rise in sea level. The broad terrace below the cave on which both the settlement and the harvest fields of the Neolithic inhabitants existed are now buried.

Sources

The Southern Greek Paleolithic, Mesolithic, and Neolithic Sequence at Franchthi

The Prehistoric Archeology of the Aegean (http://tenaya.cs.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/1.html)

Christina Clements


In the paragraph where it talks about the pottery i states that there was evidence of Linear patterns, amazing such an early stage of geometric knowledge....our ancestors are fascinating arent they?

[Orphic_Hymn]

Orphea, stou Platona tous nomous.

O Kleinias einai Kritikos etsi, gnorizoume oti stin epohi tou h Kriti milouse to doriko idioma, alla oi nomoi tous den einai Dorikoi, alla Minoikoi.

Pisteyeis oti ayto that mporouse na einai ena akoma epixeirhma gia thn ellhnikothta toy Minoikou politismou?

O Kleinias kata Platwn, ezhse ton 5o kai oxi ton 20o pX. den nomizeis oti uparxei xronologiko problhma ean to xrhshmopoihsoume ws epixeirhma?

Anyway, o Colin Renfrew mila gia xwris epirroes apo Aigupto h M.Anatolh, aneksarthth anaptuksh tou Minoikou kai Mukhnaikou (xwris na diaxwrizei) politismou sto Aigaio apo to 3000pX .

[Euklid]

Sigoura, alla omos ean o Minoikos politismos einai teleios alien, tote giati o Kleinias kai o Athinaios kanoun toso reference sto Minoa kai to Radamanthi?

Ayto den ypodeiknyei oti theoroun ti Minoiki mythologia kommati tou politismou tous? Kai o Kleinias pou ksekatharizei oti logo Minoa exoun tous nomous pou exoun, alla kai o Athinaios pou to dexetai os aytonoito.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Mallon den me katalabes, den eipa oti einai "alien" pros ton Mukhnaiko h Ellhniko genikotera ean protimas tetoion xarakthrismo(xwris na kollame se xronologies), alla gia aneksarthth anaptuksh twn duo autwn xwris epirroes apo Aigupto kai M.Anatolh.
Dhl. sumfwnw me thn idea Minoikos = Ellhnikotatos politismos, apla den kserw an mporoume na 8ewrhsoume swsth thn xrhsh tou sugekrimenou keimenou ws epixeirhma.

[Euklid]

Nai se katalava den sou leo, oti ekanes anafora se "alien"(ksero poia einai i gnomi sou), alla se ekeinous pou kanoun tetoies anafores, mipos to epixeirhma pou mas dinei o Platonas to theoreis apodekto? Irrespectively of chronologies.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Opws eipa den kserw an mporoume na 8ewrhsoume swsth thn xrhsh tou sugekrimenou keimenou ws epixeirhma..

Eipes parapanw oti "o Kleinias pou ksekatharizei oti logo Minoa exoun tous nomous pou exoun".. wraia kamia antirrhsh, to erwthma einai ean mporoume na apodeiksoume oti o Minwas htan uparkto proswpo h apla 8a basistoume sto "myths are history in disguise" pou anefera kai prin sxoliazontas to post tou Lakonian?

[Lakonian]

Orpheus,

i pistisou sta mytholoyika tis elathas ine disturbing, signomi pou eyo andi na aakou tous alous mythos pou graphoune i malakismeni anglosaxoni, pistevo kalitara stous proyounous mou, ean esi thelis nayinis apo aftous pou mono theli na xiloni tin istorea mas so thino tin efkimou megale, ala min yia ena lepti nomizis oti esi ise sostos,.

To thema ine oti thistixo mono exoume mikra kimata, ke ta pio poli ine mythologika ala gramena.

i mytho apla intous stan apo ton stoma, ke ta pio pola itan alithia, ala mono krifta loyia ixan.

Lipn, separakalo, sta mata na me kanis san na ime trelos ke yiavase ta apo pano pou exo grapsi, ke esi na mou to exiyisis yia ti afat ou ioarxon sixan, akomi thixnoun oti i ellines arxisan apo tous pelasgous pou megalosan mestis spilias ta splaxna! GIA. PELAS(ATHENA) LAS(LITHOS PETRA) GOS (GENIMENOS/YIOS /SON)

[Lakonian]

I havre showsn you all my proof of how the Pelasgians are simply the Neolithic Greeks, who would have eventualy established the Linear A.

The discrimenation that our nation goes through when we rae challanged that Linear could not be Greek is absolutely shocking!
How on earth can you deny this not be Greek!? There more then enough characters that pass on to Linear B, what do they except the Greeks to have been speaking Greek while dwelling in caves?! NO! yamotimou., it developed!

Stop trying to probe this because you will lead yourself to believing everything they say. Use logic, we have enough written evidence and archealogical evidence that Greeks are autonomous! Neolithic to Pelasgian .

You only qeustion proof, how can you prove Indo-Europenas as being real?Wheres there archealogical eveidence, where there text, wheres there original language. Yet we swallow it like water in the middle of the desert.

PIE is the major weapon for slavic groups, sch as the one which has taken a major bite in our history .FYROM's.

The more you agree with people that say we have taken others language, science, maths etc...and we simply say yeah your probbaly right because Platyo travelled to Egypt, or because Puythagoras travelled the East, so what?!

What was time waiting for, the Greeks to obtain info from others then simply leave the rest of the world behind with there superior ability to develop things that the rest of the world couldnt even imagine?

You wanna deny it, fine, you show me proof that Neolithics were not Pelasgians .

The constant denial of our own people towards our history is what kills us the most, and one day, we will accept everything they throw at us.

I might show alittle to much passion, but that doesnt mean i pull things from the air, i simply suggest with strong evidence what could be, unlike the constant propaganda they throw to the world that we, the Hellines took most of hwat we know from Indians, werent they still swining from trees when Alexander walked through there?

[Lakonian]

Olvios, check this out my friend, Labrys is belived to be a Pelasgian word.

Labrys is the term for a doubleheaded axe, known to the Classical Greeks as pelekus πέλεκυς[1] or sagaris, and to the Romans as a bipennis.

This is not the first use of the symbol. Representations of the labrys are on paleolithic and Neolithic finds of "Old Europe" often associated with the worship of the Great Goddess and similar Earth Mother goddesses who were the deities of most early cultures. The labrys symbolism is continued in Minoan, Thracian, Greek, and Byzantine religion, mythology, and art that date to over three thousand years ago

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Labrys.jpg/200px-Labrys.jpg
Minoan symbolic labrys of gold, 2nd millennium BC: many Arkalochori Axes have been found in the Arkalochori cave.This is the cave that i posted about earlier.

Labyrinth is a word of pre-Greek ("Pelasgian") origin absorbed by classical Greek, and is perhaps related to Lydian labrys ("double-edged axe," symbol of royal power, which fits with the theory that the labyrinth was originally the royal Minoan palace on Crete and meant "palace of the double-axe), with -inthos connoting "place" (as in "Corinth").

Labrys is from the word Labyrinth, and we know the Minoans are famous for the Labrynths, so we can see them as being the Pelasgians, or influenced by the Pelasgians.

My point is once again, Neolithics were Pelasgians, these Greeks made such sophisticated weapons with amazing geometrical (linear) patterns, is there anything we havent done?

[Euklid]

Lakonian, you must realize that everybody in here works in the same team.

The question is not whether Pelasgians were Greeks or not.

All of us want them to be, the question is what kind of arguments do we have that are able to support this statement especially when dealing with people that will not allow not even one needle to fall on the floor.

Do we have enough arguments to substantiate with certainty that the Pelasgians were Greeks? If yes, which are the arguments, briefly in small statements?

The Greek language containing Pelasgian words doesnt prove that the Pelasgians were Greeks, but rather that the Greek language has adopted Pelasgian element.

Do not take the questioning as a form of attack...but rather as a form of "training".

[Orphic_Hymn]

Orpheus,

i pistisou sta mytholoyika tis elathas ine disturbing, signomi pou eyo andi na aakou tous alous mythos pou graphoune i malakismeni anglosaxoni, pistevo kalitara stous proyounous mou, ean esi thelis nayinis apo aftous pou mono theli na xiloni tin istorea mas so thino tin efkimou megale, ala min yia ena lepti nomizis oti esi ise sostos,.

To thema ine oti thistixo mono exoume mikra kimata, ke ta pio poli ine mythologika ala gramena.

i mytho apla intous stan apo ton stoma, ke ta pio pola itan alithia, ala mono krifta loyia ixan.

Lipn, separakalo, sta mata na me kanis san na ime trelos ke yiavase ta apo pano pou exo grapsi, ke esi na mou to exiyime into Peloposis yia ti afat ou ioarxon sixan, akomi thixnoun oti i ellines arxisan apo tous pelasgous pou megalosan mestis spilias ta splaxna! GIA. PELAS(ATHENA) LAS(LITHOS PETRA) GOS (GENIMENOS/YIOS /SON)

Λοιπον το μονο disturbing που βλεπω εγω ειναι η ΜΑΛΑΚΙΑ ΣΟΥ !!!

Σου δειχνω οτι υπαρχουν κενα στην θεωρια σου και βγαινεις και μας λες πως δεν ειμαστε Ελληνες, συνεχιζω να στο αποδεικνυω και με κατηγορεις για "ξηλωμα της ιστοριας" !!!

κοιτα το τι υποστηριζεις..

Pelasgians ...Pela-another name for athena- Pelas-athenians- Lasgias Las another word for Lithos meaning rock, thefore it relates to the myth that the first born Hellenics were from Lithos that were thrown from Decaulion and his wife.

Without actually spending more than a minute anyone can see the totally rediculous and in contrast to anything any real linguist has presented, attempt to analyse and present an etymology for "pelasgian/pelasgos".

YOU suggest that "PELAS" (ΠΕΛΑΣ) was Athena's name when:

a) "pelas" (πελας) means "near" hence Odyssey 15.257 "Τηλεμάχου πέλας ἵστατο" (Tilemachos stood near by)

b) everyone knows it was PALLAS (ΠΑΛΛΑΣ) see Odyssey 1.200 (Παλλάδ' Ἀθηναίην)
-----------------


Now while you totally distort the Hellenic language and the Goddess' name, in an attempt to support your "born from the soil" theory, you present us with this quote:


Pelasgians
by Daphne Elliott
Before recorded Time, (c. 900 BCE) but during an active migration era of prehistoric Greece (c. 10,000 BCE), a people came into the Pelaponnesus, presumably from the north, and settled around the eastern Mediterranian coast and its islands, Sicily, Lamapadusa etc. They were called "Pelasgians," which has several specific meanings, depending on which tranlation one might be reading.

So, the question is how do a people that "came into the Pelaponnesus, presumably from the north" (according to your own source) and thus, literally invaders, non-autochthones, support your claims of "born from the soil" ??
-------------

I havre showsn you all my proof of how the Pelasgians are simply the Neolithic Greeks, who would have eventualy established the Linear A.
Without getting into what you consider "proof", lets just note that you seem to totally ignore that Linear A' obviously derives from Cretan Hieroglyphics (2200BC) which also influenced the Proto-Canaanite/Sinatic(1500BC) script as the similarities in several "letters/symbols" clearly indicate.

You only qeustion proof, how can you prove Indo-Europenas as being real?Wheres there archealogical eveidence, where there text, wheres there original language. Yet we swallow it like water in the middle of the desert.
Who talked about IE or PIE and especially when did I ever say I accept these theories?




This was just a small example, without even getting into the process of taking apart your posts word for word.

To end this rediculous game of charades, my problem is NOT with what you are claiming (autochthones, Pelasgoi = Hellenes, Linear A' = Hellenic script) since I fully accept all these ideas, but with HOW you try to support your claims.

[Euklid]

h apla 8a basistoume sto "myths are history in disguise"

Oxi aparaitita, den xreiazetai na kanoume ena tetoio theorima. Mporoume na ypostiriksoume oti ekeinoi pou moirazontai mythologia apoteloun kommati mias koinis taytotitas stin prokeimeni periptosi. Oxi na dexthoume tous mythous os istorikes alitheies, alla os binding cultural/ethnic elements. Tha prepei fysika na traviksoume grammi sto cultural-ethnic. Mexri pou paei to cultural exchange, kai apo pou ksekinaei to ethnic element.

Tha mporouse kallista ayto to paradeigma na einai ena paradeigma cultural exchange anamesa sti Kritiki koinonia tou 5 ou aiona kai ti Minoiki tou 20ou, pote ginetai ethnic? otan mpainei i glossa mesa, kai stin periptosi mas den exei mpei i glossa mesa akoma, alla mia syngkentosi tetoion epixeirhmaton, ta opoia pisteyo oti einai mpolika, tha mporouse na dosei ena enaysma sti theoria oti to cultural exchange mython ktl, mporei na ginei extend se ethnic continuity, ean to cultural element einai profanestato, xoris na ginei emperistatosh tou glossikou syndyasmou.

Me liga logia: Na kanoume tous Minoes ethnic Ellines xoris na exoume to glossiko epixeirhma alla vasizomenoi pliros se ena terastio syndyasmo politismikon antallagon...kai an tin kanoun decipher ti Linear A kai vgei Ellhnikh tote tha mporoume pleon me sigouria na kanoume logo gia ethnic Ellhnes.

Xartinos Pyrgos me alla logia, alla ikanopoiitikos gia thn ora.

Mou fainetai oti ena thread me oles tis anafores ellhnwn grammtikwn sti Minoiki Kriti, aksizei ti thesi tou.

[olvios]

Εχει ξεφτιλιστει το θεμα.Οι πελασγοι ειναι ονομασια ελληνων και οι ατλαντιδα ειναι μυθος παραβολης.Ακολουθηστε με νομοτελεια τα δεδομενα που εχουμε ηδη και μην φτανετε σε υπερφυσικες εξηγησεις και υπερβολικες υποθεσεις.Και μην μαλωνετε.

[Lakonian]

Orphic Hymn are you Greek?:)

[Orphic_Hymn]

Various quotes on the Pelasgians


Herodotus 1.58


Τὸ δὲ Ἑλληνικὸν γλώσσῃ μέν, ἐπείτε ἐγένετο, αἰεί κοτε τῇ
αὐτῇ διαχρᾶται, ὡς ἐμοὶ καταφαίνεται εἶναι. Ἀποσχισθὲν
μέντοι ἀπὸ τοῦ Πελασγικοῦ

translation:

"But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always
had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when
separated from the Pelasgians"

Why speak of separation, if they were not part of the same people ???






Dionysus of Halikarnassos "Roman Antiquities" 1.17.2.1

καὶ τὸ τῶν Πελασγῶν γένος Ἑλληνικὸν ἐκ Πελοποννήσου

translation:

for the Pelasgians, too, were a Hellenic race originally from the Peloponnesus




Aeschylus Suppliants 258

τοῦ γηγενοῦς γάρ εἰμ' ἐγὼ Παλαίχθονος
ἶνις Πελασγός, τῆσδε γῆς ἀρχηγέτης.
ἐμοῦ δ' ἄνακτος εὐλόγως ἐπώνυμον
γένος Πελασγῶν τήνδε καρποῦται χθόνα.
καὶ πᾶσαν αἶαν, ἧς δί' ἁγνὸς ἔρχεται
Στρυμών, τὸ πρὸς δύνοντος ἡλίου, κρατῶ.
ὁρίζομαι δὲ τήν τε Περραιβῶν χθόνα,
Πίνδου τε τἀπέκεινα, Παιόνων πέλας,
ὄρη τε Δωδωναῖα· συντέμνει δ' ὅρος
ὑγρᾶς θαλάσσης· τῶνδε τἀπὶ τάδε κρατῶ.



translation:


For I am Pelasgus, offspring of Palaechthon,
whom the earth brought forth, and lord of this land;
and after me, their king, is rightly named the race of the Pelasgi,
who harvest the land. Of all the region through which the pure.
Strymon flows, on the side toward the setting sun,
I am the lord. There lies within the limits of my rule
the land of the Perrhaebi, the parts beyond Pindus
close to the Paeonians, and the mountain ridge of Dodona;
the edge of the watery sea borders my kingdom.
I rule up to these boundaries.






Euripides ION 589


εἶναί φασι τὰς αὐτόχθονας
κλεινὰς Ἀθήνας οὐκ ἐπείσακτον γένος,

translation:

It is said that the famous Athenians
are autochthonous of the land, not a foreign race,


It is for this reason that Thucydides states:

Thucydides Peloponessian War 1.6.3


καὶ χρυσῶν τεττίγων ἐνέρσει κρωβύλον ἀναδούμενοι τῶν ἐν τῇ κεφαλῇ τριχῶν: ἀφ᾽ οὗ καὶ Ἰώνων τοὺς πρεσβυτέρους κατὰ τὸ ξυγγενὲς ἐπὶ πολὺ αὕτη ἡ σκευὴ κατέσχεν.

translation:

and fastening a knot of their hair with a tie of golden grasshoppers, a fashion which spread to their Ionian kindred, and long prevailed among the old men there.


The golden grasshopper or 'cicada' was worn by the Athenians as a symbol of their autochthonous origin even before the time of Solon because they considered the 'cicada's' to have sprung from the earth just as their forefathers did..

[Orphic_Hymn]

A History of Greece:
From the Earliest Times to the Roman Conquest, with Supplementary Chapters ..
by Sir William Smith - 1855 p.12-13



http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/1-6.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/15.jpg

[Orphic_Hymn]

The Gentile Nations: Or, the History and Religion of the
Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians ...
By George Smith p.317




http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/1-4.jpg

[Orphic_Hymn]

`History of Classical Literature
By Robert William Browne p. 40



http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/1-5.jpg

[Orphic_Hymn]

The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the
Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC)
By Tim J. Cornell p.38

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/1-7.jpg

[Orphic_Hymn]

The Religions Before Christ: Being an Introduction to the
History of the First Three Centuries ...
By Edmond de Pressensé p.66


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/1-3.jpg

[Orphic_Hymn]

Landmarks of the history of Greece
By James White p.21


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/1-8.jpg

[akritas]

Pelasgians according Strabo


[B]As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.
Again, Ephorus says that he is of the opinion that, since they were originally Arcadians, they chose a military life, and that, in converting many peoples to the same mode of life, they imparted their name to all, and thus acquired great glory, not only among the Greeks, but also among all other people whithersoever they had chanced to come.
For example, they prove to have been colonisers of Crete, as Homer says; at any rate, Odysseus says to Penelope: "But one tongue with others is mixed; theredwell Achaeans, there Cretans of the old stock, proud of heart, there Cydonians, and Dorians too, of waving plumes, and goodly Pelasgians."
And Thessaly is called "the Pelasgian Argos" (I mean that part of it which lies between the outlets of the Peneius River and Thermopylae as far as the mountainous country of Pindus), on account of the fact that the Pelasgi extended their rule over these regions. Further, the Dodonaean Zeus is by the poet himself named "Pelasgian": "O Lord Zeus, Dodonaean, Pelasgian."
And many have called also the tribes of Epirus "Pelasgian," because in their opinion the Pelasgi extended their rule even as far as that. And, further, because many of the heroes were called "Pelasgi" by name, the people of later times have, from those heroes, applied the name to many of the tribes; for example, they have called the island of Lesbos "Pelasgia," and Homer has called "Pelasgi" the people that were neighbours to those Cilicians who lived in the Troad: "And Hippothous led the tribes of spear-fighting Pelasgi, those Pelasgi who inhabited deep-soiled Larissa."
But Ephorus' authority for the statement that this race originated in Arcadia was Hesiod; for Hesiod says: "And sons were born of god-like Lycaon, who, on a time, was begotten by Pelasgus." Again, Aeschylus, in his Suppliants , or else his Danaan Women , says that the race of the Pelasgi originated in that Argos which is round about Mycenae.
And the Peloponnesus too, according to Ephorus, was called "Pelasgia."
And Euripides too, in his Archelaus, says: "Danaus, the father of fifty daughters, on coming into Argos,took up his abode in the city of Inachus, and throughout Greece he laid down a law that all people hitherto named Pelasgians were to be called Danaans."
And again, Anticleides says that they were the first to settle the regions round about Lemnos and Imbros, and indeed that some of these sailed away to Italy with Tyrrhenus the son of Atys.
And the compilers of the histories of The Land of Atthis give accounts of the Pelasgi, believing that the Pelasgi were in fact at Athens too, although the Pelasgi were by the Attic people called "Pelargi," the compilers add, because they were wanderers and, like birds, resorted to those places whither chance led them.

[olvios]

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Pelasgians.jpg

[Flipper]

I was looking around ancient quotes on the Ionians...In many texts (except from the autochthonous nature of the Athenian) they are mention as autochthonus. We should gather all these texts.