Did ancient Greeks develop Robots?-AUTOMATOI

[Lakonian]

Yea i know i pick the real corny subjects but hey, where theres truth theres a lie, and where there is a lie there is truth.(mythology)

Ok, most of you probabnly havent even read deep enough into the Greek mythlogy to even know about the AUTOMATOI.
These devices were built the Greek God HEPHAISTOS , he is the god of technology including, specifically blacksmiths, craftsmen, artisans, sculptors, metals and metallurgy, and fire. He was worshipped in all the manufacturing and industrial centers of Greece, especially Athens.

In many of his deeds, he has built what we, till today, call Automata, or automated devices which obviously mean they run on there own. The reason i believe the Greeks did actualy develop this stuff is because they had the knowledge to do so and the resources, we cannot deny the mathimatical, scientific, or astronomical advancement they had, so why would we deny that they could actualy build things which we today do, and some we dont even have?

they key here is the repeated metirial which are mentioned in the myths, one being GOLD and the other Metal/ Silver. If we look at todays devices, computers, cars etc...we see the mineral gold being used in them all the time.
Electricity runs through it efficiently, and its a good conducter, and its got longlivety. Silver was also used as its even better then Gold when it comes to acting as a conducter and it can carry much more current through it ( as we see in Talos) But in the end, gold still wins out. Why? Because most electronic circuits do not use very high electrical current.And even though gold is more expensive, the low surface area used keeps the cost down. So in the end gold's resistance to corrosion makes it the morecost-efficient material to use.Which in the WHAT IF scenario would have worked better for the Greeks as it does for todays society.

As for electricity, well they Greeks kew this existed aswell.Do i need to provide proof of that........?


I wont go into to much of what the Greeks could have or did make in there time(evidence of devices) but il leave the following automatoi devices that Greeks spun in there myths.

il juts say this, if you can dream it, you can do it. Theres enough evidence of Greeks doing that time, and time again. Enjoy brothers.

LIST OF AUTOMATOI

HIPPOI KABEIRIKOI, THE A pair of fire-breathing horses which Hephaistos cast out of bronze for his sons, the two gods known as Kabeiroi.

KAUKASIAN EAGLE A giant eagle cast out of bronze by Hephaistos to torture the chained Titan Prometheus.

KELEDONES KHRYSEAI, THE Singing maidens sculpted out of gold by Hephaistos for the first mythic shrine of Apollon at Delphoi.

KOURAI KHRYSEAI, THE A pair of beautiful golden maidens which Hephaistos sculpted out of gold to attend him in his own household.

KUONES KHRYSEOS & ARGYREOS A pair of watchdogs one crafted out of gold and the other out of silver by Hephaistos for the palace of King Alkinous of the Phaiakians.

TALOS A giant sculpted out of bronze by Hephaistos and presented to Europa Queen of Krete as a wedding present. The giant patrolled the island of Krete protecting it against pirates.

TAUROI KHALKEOI, THE Two fire-breathing bulls scupted out of bronze by Hephaistos for Aeetes King of Kolkhis. One of the hero Jason's labours was to rope these beasts to a ploughshare and sow a field with magical dragon's teeth.

TRIPODES KHRYSEOI, THE A set of twenty wheeled tripods crafted by Hephaistos out of gold for the feasts in the Olympian gods. They were endowed with self-animation and wheeled themselves in and out of the halls of the gods as they were required.


KUONES KHRYSEOS & ARGYREOS
"Golden doors closed the palace in [the palace of Alkinous King of the Phaiakians], and silver posts rose above the threshold; the lintel was of silver, the door-handle was of gold. Each side of the door were gold and silver watchdogs, deathless for ever and unageing, which Hephaistos with his wit and cunning had fashioned as guardians for the great house." - Homer, Odyssey 7.87



THE TRIPODES KHRYSEOI
"[Hephaistos was] sweating as he turned here and there to his bellows busily, since he was working on twenty tripods which were to stand against the wall of his strong-founded dwelling. And he had set golden wheels underneath the base of each one so that of their own motion they could wheel into the immortal gathering, and return to his house: a wonder to look at. These were so far finished, but the elaborate ear handles were not yet on. He was forging these, and beating the chains out." - Homer, Iliad 18.371

[Ehetlaios]

It's an interesting subject. Plato in "Timaeus" mentions about a greater Hellenic civilization that existed before the Trojan War and the Cataklysm, a civilization that made wondrous things (I do not remember the exact words).

I don't know if that civilization created robots, but there are enough references to robots which prove that the ancient did have some knowledge.

[Lakonian]

Well there are major references to the Greeks being super human so to speak. References can be traced in ancient Indian and Chinese text.

Indian Praises

"Yona" is a Pali word used in ancient India to designate Greeks. Its equivalent in Sanskrit is the word "Yavana". "Yona" and "Yavana" are both transliterations of the Greek word for "Ionians" (Homer Iāones, older *Iāwones), who were probably the first Greeks to be known in the East.

Several references in Indian literature praise the scientific abilities of the Yavanas or the Greeks.

The Mahabharata compliments them as "the all-knowing Yavanas" (sarvajnaa yavanaa).

sarvajnaa.yavanaa.rajan.shuraaz.caiva.vishesatah |
mlecchah.svasamjnaa.niyataanaanukta.itaro.janah ||80||
— (Mahabharata VIII.31.80).


Yet another Indian text, (Gargi-Samhita), also similarly compliments the Yavanas saying: "The Yavanas are barbarians yet the science of astronomy originated with them and for this they must be revered like Gods" (Gargi-Samhita).

"Previously Yavanesvara (the lord of the Greeks), whose vision of the truth came by favor of the Sun and whose language is flawless, translated this ocean of words, this jewel-mine of horoscopy, which was guarded by its being written in his tongue (i.e., Greek), but the truth of which was seen by the foremost of kings (in the year) 71; (he translated) this science of genethlialogy for the instruction of the world by means of excellent words." (Chapter 79/60-61 The Yavanajataka of Sphujidhvaja

There have been references from Indian scholars that the Greeks where known to ancient Indians as the Vedas (great philosophers)

Theres another reference made about the Greeks in Sanskrit fom about white gods who came to there land in flying machines...il try to to get the refernce for hat one because it the most interesting that they rfer to the visitors ase 'white" lephki gods, gods dur to there knowledge.


Chinese praises
Dayuan meaning the Great Ionians, lovers of craft and technology.

They where called lovers of wine and great traders, as they introduced many things to the Chinese.

[Flipper]

Guys, all these things are nice stories but until we find something we can't speak seriously about it. I believe the Greeks were the ancient Julius Vern but I do not believe they actually developed robots. This is rather theories exposed by scientologists in greece.

[Ehetlaios]

Guys, all these things are nice stories but until we find something we can't speak seriously about it. I believe the Greeks were the ancient Julius Vern but I do not believe they actually developed robots. This is rather theories exposed by scientologists in greece.

The mechanism of Antikythera is wondrous for it's time. Maybe "robots" is far-fetched but the thought of animals working with an archaic version of robotics existed.

[Lakonian]

@ Flipper dont be quick to dampen this theory brother. As Ahetlaios has said, the Antykithera mechanism was way ahead of its time, its almost just doesnt go with the era its so advanced.
You need to understand that the thread is not to support that the Greeks creating Terminators or R2D-2's.....its just simply leaves us with enigmatic clues that the Greeks had the lust to build these automata, doesnt mean they actualy built what today call A.I's. But at the same time we cannot rule out that they had the ambition to build these things and that they most certainly expiremented aswell.

To much work has been lost via religious campaigns( i wont point any fingers) and im sure many things will surface in the future. Need i raise the post of teh archemides lost work been found recently showing that he discovered how to calculate infinity? Thus paving way for cloning and other extreme stuff? Perhaps i will.......

[Flipper]

I wouldn't be suprised if they developed cranes and other mechanisms that we can draw a parallel with a robot arm but not robots like Talos that did things for them.

Generarly, I believe they did many things we're not aware of. Just reserved myself for the theories that claim that Talos was a superrobot that kicked the ass of intruders.

[olvios]

You can see extreme descriptions in hindu literature but when people(you know who i am talking about) like those in greek tv talk about them the subject becomes ridiculous and the sources unreliable.

[Euklid]

I believe its ok to reminisce a bit in Ancient Times, but, dont get consumed, of what the Greeks did or didnt do. And if someone proves that Talos, was burping fire, and farting ice, so? wheres the betterment? Stay in philosophy, and try to understand Plato's dialogues for what they are, not for the information they offer, on technological achievements. Plato is not the PC magazine of Ancient Athens. Anyways, they were very advanced, so advanced they created astrology, well not create, but took it to an unbelievable level, if one understands the force that led them to compile all these astronomical information, and classify them into earthly phenomena, one will be astonished, literally.

Where macro meets the micro. Where symmetry meets asymmetry, where chaos meets harmony. The sole unanswered question of current science, the marrying of the relativity theory, with Chaotic systems and behaviors. Did they find, the golden rule, maybe the golden ratio; the creation of astrology , proves that they did. The How is unsolved, even for our modern science. The Strings want to solve it. This is what Promethea should be dealing with, and this what all Classical lovers should really be concerned with. Not anieri Historia.

[Lakonian]

I believe its ok to reminisce a bit in Ancient Times, but, dont get consumed, of what the Greeks did or didnt do. And if someone proves that Talos, was burping fire, and farting ice, so? wheres the betterment? Stay in philosophy, and try to understand Plato's dialogues for what they are, not for the information they offer, on technological achievements. Plato is not the PC magazine of Ancient Athens. Anyways, they were very advanced, so advanced they created astrology, well not create, but took it to an unbelievable level, if one understands the force that led them to compile all these astronomical information, and classify them into earthly phenomena, one will be astonished, literally.

Where macro meets the micro. Where symmetry meets asymmetry, where chaos meets harmony. The sole unanswered question of current science, the marrying of the relativity theory, with Chaotic systems and behaviors. Did they find, the golden rule, maybe the golden ratio; the creation of astrology , proves that they did. The How is unsolved, even for our modern science. The Strings want to solve it. This is what Promethea should be dealing with, and this what all Classical lovers should really be concerned with. Not anieri Historia.

Your are absolutely right my friend, but you need to understand, this subject is not stir ridiculous claims, im simply prjecting what our ancestors left us, and there is enough evidence to allow all of us to imagie what they could have built.
You say philosophy is the way, and i once again agree with you, i have read much Greek phiosophy, and its my favourite of all things Greek. So i you too read Greek philosophy you would have surely seen extreme claims by our philospophers, Atlantians, a Greek race much more advanced then Athenians, evolutionary concepts, ( aligator to man, Aristotalian concept of evolution) .

You see, the Greeks knew so much, they had to hide it from themselves, cause as we have seen time and time again, when knowledge falls into the wrong hand things go bad. So how did they avoid this, cryptographica philosophica and mythology. You can keep denying it and using far right extreme morons who only go on TV for selfish and political reasons, but you cant say it never happened brother.

Why is it so easy for poeple to swallow that Jesus made so many miracles and most of the world believe it, and yet no one can believe Platos claim of the after life that he gives is at the end of the Republic:

"Well, I said, I will tell you a tale; not one of the taleswhich Odysseus tells to the hero Alcinous, yet this too is a tale of a hero, Er the son of Armenius,a Pamphylian by birth. He was slain in battle and ten days afterwards his body did not decay. he was carred away on the 12th day and as he was about to be buried he awoke and told everyone of the after life "......

i wont go on as its is too long, read it for yourselfs....my point is people are always quick to judge, all im saying is the ,mind must always be kept open, for good and bad........

Those morons who go on TV( far right extremists) and blab about things that destroy our history such as Jesus being an alien and ancient Greeks were from another planet is very laughable, this is what you must stay away from.

This thread is only to probe at the possibilities of our ancestors, which quite frankly, they had more potential then what this thread is about...

We had the knowledge, we had the potential.

As for Talos

[Euklid]

Lakonian, right on mate, nobody says otherwise, fully agree with "cryptica", Orpheus said it loud and clear, "only the aristoi".

And i also noticed, that you do not make ridiculous claims in your threads. My comments were straight for "Talos".

As about the Ancient Greek achievements, i have offered you my opinion, which is that the Ancient Hellenes, were highly advanced. They developed mechanisms, and classified every single thing they could observe with their senses.

[Lakonian]

The Antikythera Mechanism is widely considered to be one of the most important archeological artifacts ever found. The mechanism is a geared device consisting of 30 gears in a highly complex arrangement. The mechanism is known to model astronomical phenomenon with remarkable detail.

How where these gears crafted? The complexity of them being put together is un comprehensable so how do you explain the fine teeth created on bronze none the less?

The conclusion to the antikythera mechanism is that its an automated device. A device that a none conclusive answere can be given as to how the advancement of such a craft could be placed within the time period of ancient Greece.

A device that no concrete source can be attached to it as to who actualy built it.

For myself, who reads nothing more than the genius of Greeks, the Antikythera mechanism is another slap in the face of the rational.

"The Antikythera Mechanism is widely considered to be one of the most important archeological artifacts ever found. The mechanism is a geared device consisting of 30 gears in a highly complex arrangement. The mechanism is known to model astronomical phenomenon with remarkable detail."

"The Mechanism provides a unique window on history, allowing us to view the collected astronomical knowledge of the Ancient Greeks, and through them the knowledge of the Ancient Babylonians. In many ways the Mechanism provides us with an encyclopedia of the astronomical knowledge of the time.

In addition, it also stands witness to the extraordinary mathematical and engineering capabilities of the Ancient Greeks. The Mechanism is thought to date from between 150 and 100 BC and it precedes any other known clockwork mechanisms of similar complexity by more than a millennium. The level of engineering in the mechanism is astonishing by any standards."

Right here i wanna ask any of you if you could please provide me with proof that Greeks actualy sourced Babylonian astronomical knowledge, mathematics...etc.

How was it made?
"The mechanism was made using simple steel tools. The Ancient Greeks did indeed have steel tools, and their craftsmanship in general and metal working specifically, was superb. Indeed, to prove how easily the mechanism could be manufactured in this way Michael Wright has built a fully working model of the Mechanism using traditional methods. In doing so he observed that the only really difficult part was the manufacture of the front dial, with its recessed ring. " Rubbish, this is no answere, what are the traditional tools, what method was used to construct the fine gears, and this being the only example of the mechanism, its clearly shows it was unique.

The reds are my questions......there are questions in the Antikythera site and also its own answeres which i have posted above.

Funny enough this was one of the questions posed to the scientists about the mechanism...What was it for? the answere...While a century of research has finally answered the question what the mechanism did, we are actually no nearer answering the question what was it for. There are numerous suggestions, any of which could be right.

[Paulos Melas]

I think that the whole subject is a bit of nonsense.
The Greeks always we were extremely advanced visionaries, mastering arts science mathemantics and philosophy with a unique way, nonetheless claims such like greeks had robots or greeks had nuclear weapons during antiquity or lasers etc, I simply feel that consitute an insult and assault to our civilisation and make the people who adopt and promote such foolish and hilarious ideas no better than the ignorant skopians who with the same manner and equally without any proof claim that they are macedonians!!! Plase get a grip!

[Lakonian]

I think that the whole subject is a bit of nonsense.
The Greeks always we were extremely advanced visionaries, mastering arts science mathemantics and philosophy with a unique way, nonetheless claims such like greeks had robots or greeks had nuclear weapons during antiquity or lasers etc, I simply feel that consitute an insult and assault to our civilisation and make the people who adopt and promote such foolish and hilarious ideas no better than the ignorant skopians who with the same manner and equally without any proof claim that they are macedonians!!! Plase get a grip!

It amazes me the malakia that one can develop....read nice and slow through the thread monkey man.......nice and slow....point to where anyone has claimed nuclear weapons lasers or robots............the topic is automata....and the basic approach to them which have led to current developments in automated machines including robots....you been in a cave or something? Can i find anyone to have an intelligent constructive and intelectual conversation without having them run there mouth before there neurons fire? Get a grip? Pick up a book malaka.

[Lakonian]

Heron and high pressure devices

Heron of Alexandria was a Greek mathematician, engineer. He is known mostly for the engineering capabilities especially with hydraulic devices, simple machines, on automations, but he was an important mathematician, too.

The formula of Heron for the area of a triangle, which is sometimes attributed to Archimedes, gives the area in terms of the sides:
A = the square root of the product of s is the semi perimeter of a triangle with sides a, b, and c.
A=(a+b+c)/2

In his book 'Mihanika' (about machines) there are descriptions of 5 different types of machines: derrick, lever, pulley, wedge and worn screw.

Heron also invented the first machine working with steam. Olive oil has a big tradition in Greece so the people in ancient Greece had also the real need to put oil out of olives. Heron had made a lot of such devices. Ctesibius also made one based on vacuum pressure!

The automations that Heron constructed remained famous in history for their originality.

In the right picture we see the automation that was forcing the doors of the temple to open whenever a fire was lit on the altar.http://www.geocities.com/sfetel/pic/templemec.gif


Get the drift, noob? such extensive knowledge in developing automated devices and in large scales as the doors of a temple opening wouldnt harm anyone to think they had further capabilities....antikythera device is fine example that had scientists head in a spin about how far the Greeks had gone......seems thats not good enough for such bright and closed minds such as yours Paulos Melas......the thread is to reveal that Greeks had abilities to develop robotic mechanisms and they did...who said anything about terminators and T-1000 mapa?

[Paulos Melas]

On the contrary Laconian I am very well acquainted with all the information that you provide.
The legendery greek tales of Talos and Pygmalion (tales no reality nonetheless) along with historical references such as the pigeon of Archytas of Tarentum or the ones of the medieval persian Jabir ibn Hayyan in his book of stones or the legendary Golem of the Jewish all form part of a the same type of anthology.
Also automatic mechanisms are also well spread among the chinese and the romans.
Further nobody challenged the complexity and importance of the Kythira Mechanism
Nonetheless the way that the whole issue is presented under the title: "Did ancient Greeks develop Robots?-AUTOMATOI" is pointing towards the wrong direction.
I believe that the presentation is quite vague, full of copy paste references and an attempt to underlyingly present a very biased hellenocentric approach.
Swearing doesn t assist to persuade that the author has indeed an efficient unbiased knowledge of the subject of ancient technology and the whole attempt is no better presented and founded than and the skopian attempt to establish the skopian macedonian legacy and origins. Both are equally shallow.
Serious presentations require a far more literate approach, a more profound knowledge and better manners than the ones the author can present and handle.
Of course "Giraskw aei didaskomenos" so with two good books one about the ancient technology and one about good manners you always stand a chance Laconian!!!

[Lakonian]

On the contrary Laconian I am very well acquainted with all the information that you provide.
The legendery greek tales of Talos and Pygmalion (tales no reality nonetheless) along with historical references such as the pigeon of Archytas of Tarentum or the ones of the medieval persian Jabir ibn Hayyan in his book of stones or the legendary Golem of the Jewish all form part of a the same type of anthology.
Also automatic mechanisms are also well spread among the chinese and the romans.
Further nobody challenged the complexity and importance of the Kythira Mechanism
Nonetheless the way that the whole issue is presented under the title: "Did ancient Greeks develop Robots?-AUTOMATOI" is pointing towards the wrong direction.
I believe that the presentation is quite vague, full of copy paste references and an attempt to underlyingly present a very biased hellenocentric approach.
Swearing doesn t assist to persuade that the author has indeed an efficient unbiased knowledge of the subject of ancient technology and the whole attempt is no better presented and founded than and the skopian attempt to establish the skopian macedonian legacy and origins. Both are equally shallow.
Serious presentations require a far more literate approach, a more profound knowledge and better manners than the ones the author can present and handle.
Of course "Giraskw aei didaskomenos" so with two good books one about the ancient technology and one about good manners you always stand a chance Laconian!!!

On the contrary Laconian I am very well acquainted with all the information that you provide You could have fooled me.

The legendery greek tales of Talos and Pygmalion (tales no reality nonetheless) along with historical references such as the pigeon of Archytas of Tarentum or the ones of the medieval persian Jabir ibn Hayyan in his book of stones or the legendary Golem of the Jewish all form part of a the same type of anthology. I totaly agree...so whats your problem? Do you not consider the pigeon a robot? Or your feable mind stuck in the hollywood term "robot"? There are differences between a robot and an A.I...since your clearly not in touch with so called acquainted self the difference is my malakismeno that a robot needs pre manual commands...an A.I is a self thinking problem solver meaning its able to make decisions on its own....so Melas....where have i suggested that Greeks invented such a thing?
But its more than clear since you went and read perhaps some of my olds posts or did actualy read that Archytas made a flying pigeon could you not self sustain some sort of logic to say to yourself that Greeks had abilities to creat further complex devices...such as the antikythera machanism...get off the mythology source mate..that was me showing the imagination of the ancients coming to life..inspiration...does life not imitate art malaka? I know your imitation all to well.



"Nonetheless the way that the whole issue is presented under the title: "Did ancient Greeks develop Robots?-AUTOMATOI" is pointing towards the wrong direction." Come on Melas, all the rest of the chaps in here could see what im saying...are you so higher than all of us you have deciphered my post to something deeper...ooooohhh i work for Liakopoulos the pseudo preacher...or worse..im skopian....:dry:

["B]Also automatic mechanisms are also well spread among the chinese and the romans.[/B]" Xestikami mapa...perhaps the world was wrong to tribute the renaissance to the Greeks and not the Chinese and Romans....if your firm believer that Romans pioneered things out of there own wits mate you are beyong help.....they had a giant shoulder to lean on as Isac Newton or Galileo once said...do a little google search on that.


I believe that the presentation is quite vague, full of copy paste references and an attempt to underlyingly present a very biased hellenocentric approach. Well we all cant be as quick as you my friend, show us the way.......hellenocentric? Oh brother....not another commi.


Serious presentations require a far more literate approach, a more profound knowledge and better manners than the ones the author can present and handle. What do you want me to do Melas, re write history? I simply raised a case which has many valid arguements....perhaps you need to refer yourself to my ancient greek industrial post....better acquant yourself with some sources before you can make your hollow accusations.

And dude, your writing is like blurbs without any spacing...learn how to write man...

Go bounce a ball up against a wall.

[Paulos Melas]

Laconian you are a truly picturesque character!!!
Your ignorance and rudeness are in fact quite amusing!!!
Farewell.

[pankration]

As entertaining as the sniping is, it's not necessary to bite at each other. The whole point, as I see it, of this thread was to merely show how advanced the thinking of the Greeks was, not their actual applications of these. Is Leonardo Da Vinci any less a genius because during his lifetime none of his inventions worked? Yet he had ideas involving various war machines, submarines, parachutes, hang gliders, etc. that only in the last century came to fruition. As Lakonian pointed out, the Greeks ascribed mechanical attributes to many things and ideas. The fact that they could visualize the automati is a credit to their ability to CREATE rather than just alter or develop. I think that Paulos misunderstood the intent of this thread. The ideas are referenced by many Greek writers; why should we be apologists for something that our ancestors had the foresight to see happening?

[Lakonian]

As entertaining as the sniping is, it's not necessary to bite at each other. The whole point, as I see it, of this thread was to merely show how advanced the thinking of the Greeks was, not their actual applications of these. Is Leonardo Da Vinci any less a genius because during his lifetime none of his inventions worked? Yet he had ideas involving various war machines, submarines, parachutes, hang gliders, etc. that only in the last century came to fruition. As Lakonian pointed out, the Greeks ascribed mechanical attributes to many things and ideas. The fact that they could visualize the automati is a credit to their ability to CREATE rather than just alter or develop. I think that Paulos misunderstood the intent of this thread. The ideas are referenced by many Greek writers; why should we be apologists for something that our ancestors had the foresight to see happening?

It is good see there are hellenes dwelling this planet as yourself pankration...im glad you looked past many pointless posts in this thread, and saw what anyone with logic could see.