History of hellenization - who is really greek today?

[nitkov]

Slavic blood, albanian heroes, orthodox turks, Vlach politicians, assimilated macedonians and albanians?
Is any one truely greek today?


It is a striking fact that the leading defenders of Greek liberty at this time were largely Non-Greek. Koundouriotis was decended from the Albanian invadors of Greece in the 14th century,and spoke Greek only with difficulty. His principal colleague was John Kolettis, a Vlakh who had been Ali Pasha's court doctor at Ioannina. One of the few leaders who maintained resistance far to the north of the Gulf of Corinth was the Souliote,Marko Botsaris,whos followers were largely Albanian. By a strange chance, it happend that two of the Turkish commanders-in-chief during the war, Khurshid Pasha and Muhammad Rehid Pasha(known to the Greeks as Kiutahi), were by birth Orthodox Christians, who had been converted to Islam for the sake of career in the Sultans service.

Modern Greece A Short History
C.M. Woodhouse
Page 139

Greece included considerably fewer than half of those who regarded themselves as Greeks by virtue of their language,their religion, and (less plausibly) their race. It was easy to stir up agitation in favour of enlarging Greece's frontiers by a progressive extension of "enosis" (union).

Modern Greece A Short History
C.M. Woodhouse
Page 163

In practice the Greeks had only exchanged arbitrary rule by Bavarians for arbitrary rule by others scarcely closer to themselves. The first six prime ministers under the new constitutions were all war-time leaders, several of them only nominally Greek. They included the Phanariote Mavrokordatos,the Vlakh Kolettis, and the Albanian Koundouriotis. With the exception of the last prime minister of Otho's reign, Admiral Kanaris,all of them paid litle regard to the constitution which had cost them so much toil and intrigue.
Mavrokordatos in particular culpably betrayed his trust as Greece's first constitutional prime minister(March 1844), and was compelled to resign within six months. Kolettis, who succeeded him in August 1844,remained in office until his death three years later. Neither took naturally to democratic principles, though both had a superficial acquanintance with Western Europe. Mavrokordatos' background was the Phanariote society of Constantinpole and the Rumanian principalities.

Modern Greece A Short History
C.M. Woodhouse
Page 162


The conditions of the war were now completely changed. The Greeks, who had been squandering the money provided by the loans in every sort of senseless extravagance, affected to despise the Egyptian invaders, but they ~ were soon undeceived. On the 21st of March Ibrahim Mo,ea. had laid siege to Navarino, and after some delay a Greek force under Skourti, a Hydriote sea-captain, was sent to its relief. The Greeks had in all some 7000 men, Suliotes, Albanians, armatoli from Rumelia, and some irregular Bulgarian and Viach cavalry.

http://63.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GR/GREEK_INDEPENDENCE_WAR_OF.htm


Anthony D. Smith points out, specifically in reference to the modern Greek nation, "Greek demographic continuity was brutally interrupted in the late sixth to eighth centuries A.D. by massive influxes of Avar, Slav and later, Albanian immigrants." He adds that modern Greeks "could hardly count as being of ancient Greek descent, even if this could never be ruled out.”


A process of "re-hellenization" took place, led by the Greek Orthodox Church, using the vehicle of the Greek language. To use the words of Nicholas Cheetham, (in the south) "religion and Hellenization marched hand in hand." The Slavs and Albanians, in particular, converted to Christianity and learned to speak Greek.

Albanians settled in Athens, Corinth, Mani, Thessaly and even in the Aegean islands. In the early nineteenth century, the population of Athens was 24 percent Albanian, 32 percent Turkish, and only 44 percent Greek. The village of Marathon, scene of the great victory in 490 B.C., was, early in the nineteenth century, almost entirely Albanian."

Nicholas Hammond a historian who is sympathetic to the Greek view that the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe and who has had several works published in Athens says that by the middle of the fourteenth and early fifteenth century the majority of people in the Peloponnese were Albanian speakers.

The continuing impact of this new ethnic and cultural force is indicated in Hammond's comments that the Albanian incursions into Greece continued under the Turkish system and went on right into the eighteenth century, and that the descendants of these Albanian people were still speaking Albanian when he was in Greece in the 1930s. This is not a reflection on the national consciousness of these Greek citizens, for as Hammond explains, they thought of themselves as Greek. Indeed Hammond points out that the Albanian role in the resistance to the Turks, and in the formation of the Greek nation, was significant. Like the Slavs, the Albanians became attached to their new lands, learned the new language, and began to think of themselves as one with the other peoples living there.

Finlay recognized " the vigorous Albanians of Hydra, the warlike Albanians of Suli, the persevering Bulgarians of Macedonia, and the laborious Vallachians on the banks of the Aspropotamos" who embarked together on a struggle for Greek independence, "as heartily as the posterity of the ancient inhabitants of the soil of Hellas. Nicholas Hammond tells us that in the Greek War of Independence the Albanians, above all, drove the Turks out.

According to anthropologist Roger Just, most of the nineteenth-century "Greeks," who had so recently won their independence from the Turks, not only did not call themselves Hellenes (they learned this label later from the intellectual nationalists); they did not even speak Greek by preference, but rather Albanian, Slavonic, or Vlach dialects."

The Editor of The Sunday Telegraph argues that Greece has been ruthless in erasing traces of ethnic diversity, and suggests that the desperation of its actions, including the Greek claim to a monopoly of the classical past (in which all peoples of European origins have a share) can be explained by the fact that the Greeks today are a mixture of Slavs, Turks, Greeks, Bulgars, Albanians, Vlachs, Jews and Gypsies.



... the name of one of the Albanian leaders who fought so valiantly for Greek Independence against the Ottoman Turks in 1820 was Laskarina Bubalina, a female commander? And that other Albanian leaders in that same Greek war against the Turks were Çeo Picari, Foto Xhavella, Gjon Leka, Rrapo Hekali, Hodo Leka, Tafil Buzi, Shahin Qafezezi, and Marko Boçari?

http://www.frosina.org/infobits/more_012103.shtml


Clark quotes a Greek religious refrain from that era:

'Albanians, Wallachians, Bulgarians,
speakers of other tongues, rejoice!
And ready yourselves all to become Greeks
Abandoning your barbaric tongue, speech, customs
So that to your descendants they may appear as myths'
("Victoria Clark, Why Angels Fall. A journey through Orthodox Europe from Byzantium to Kosovo Macmillan: London, 2000 ISBN: 0 333 75185 X; 2. FATHER GREGORY TILLETT, The British Orthodox Church".)


http://www.neww.org/pipermail/academic-resources/2000-August/000329.html

Nicholas Hammond a historian who is sympathetic to the Greek view that the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe and who has had several works published in Athens, is unable to support the Greek view on this matter. He says that by the middle of the fourteenth
and early fifteenth century the majority of people in the
Peloponnese were Albanian speakers. The fascinating point is that the people with whom they were competing for land were overwhelmingly not the original Greek-speaking Roman citizens, but the new breed of Greek-speaking Slavs. As Hammond says, many Greek-
speaking people at that point in time were probably ethnic Slavs.

The continuing impact of this new ethnic and cultural force is indicated in Hammond's comments that the Albanian incursions into Greece continued under the Turkish system and went on right into the
eighteenth century, and that the descendants of these Albanian people were still speaking Albanian when he was in Greece in the 1930s. This is not a reflection on the national consciousness of these Greek citizens, for as Hammond explains, they thought of themselves as Greek. Indeed Hammond points out that the Albanian
role in the resistance to the Turks, and in the formation of the Greek nation, was significant. Like the Slavs, the Albanians became attached to their new lands, learned the new language, and began to think of themselves as one with the other peoples living there.


"I watched the Koutsovlachi disappear in Thessaly over a period of twenty years. I remember the first time I went up there in 1957, I was stunned, it was another world--it was Rumania. Blond, blue-eyed women wearing incredibly beautiful costumes: white, with about twelve to fifteen inches of thick fringes at the bottom, in saffron, black, and ocher. And everywhere I went, there were ducks and geese, which I didn't see anywhere else in Greece. Ducks and geese and pigs--standard east and central European farm culture. But I saw all of that disappear.

It's a pity because Greece has lost the Sarakatsani, it's lost the Vlachi, the Koutsovlachi, the Karagounidhes -- it's lost all these fascinating minority groups, and now people are getting up and trying to stop it, but they're about twenty years too late."

--"A Point of Contact: An Interview with Nikos Stavroulakis," by Peter Pappas in The Greek American (January 9, 1988)


"The obsession with Greek racial identity involves the distortion
of the history of the thousands of years when there was no such
thing as a Greek nation state. The early Slav invasions which
reached far into the Peloponnese and left Slav-speaking
settlements well into the fifteenth century are conveniently
ignored. So too is the fact that in the early nineteenth century
the population of Athens was 24 per cent Albanian, 32 per cent
Turkish and only 44 per cent Greek.

Simon Mcllwaine, The Strange Case of the Invisible Minorities
-Institutional Racism in the Greek State, International Society
for Human Rights, British Section, Dec 1993.


No wonder the kodjabashis, the Peloponnesian notables, were disparagingly referred to as "Christian Turks". One hero of the war of independence,Photakos Kyrysanthopoulis, said that the only difference was one of names: instead of being called Hasan the Kodijabashi, he would be called Yanni: in stead of praying to a mosque he would go to church.

A concise history Of Greece
Richard Clogg
Page 42

The Academy was built with bequest from Simon Sinas, the hugely wealthy son of Georgios Sinas, a Hellenised Vlach whose family came from Moschopolis in Southern Albania, who made his fortune in the Habsburg Empire and was himself the donor of Theophilos Hansen's observatory (1843-6).

A concise history Of Greece
Richard Clogg
Page 79





And finally, some haunting final words for the greeks:

"In the 1830's an Austrian classicist called JJ Fallmereyer made a study of the South Slav migrations and concluded that not just that the Greeks are Slavs ,but not a drop of pure Greek blood was to be found in the modern Greek. In Athens needless to say , his name is not much ”…. Consequently the medieval and modern Greeks are …are not the descendants of the Greeks of Antiquity , and their Hellenism is artificial . (Robert Browning , Greece Old and New , edited by Tom Winnifrith and Penelope Murray , the Macmillan Press , London 1963. )

[admin]

These are opinions of people not facts... if you do not have facts your posts will be deleted...

I am a PhD and my opinion is that Slavs are nomads that came from the North. That is a fact. Now I should write a book also, however I will make sure I use DNA evidence to prove it, I have an opinion but a hypothesis/opinion is worth ZIPPO if it is not proved... like your posts and quotes you mention (zero facts, no argument no one cares....)

The Slavs have EVERYTHING to prove as
1) your language is not ancient
2) your language was emerged very recently from 2 Greek monks Methodus and Cyrilus
3) your history goes back to very recent times ie a few centuries before
4) your country is a few years old
5) you have very few artifacts, and even those come from Greeks that used to inhabit those areas
6) your population is over 40% Albanian, Bulgarian, and other ethnicities and you are saying the Greece which is composed of 99% Greeks are non-Greek???


show me EVIDENCE, facts, artifacts not quotes from some opinionated unfactual "thinkers"

[admin]

The second phase, between 500 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/500) and 900 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/900) AD, saw Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples), Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_people) and other tribes on the move, re-settling in Eastern Europe and gradually making it predominantly Slavic. Moreover, more Germanic tribes migrated within Europe during this period, including the Lombards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards) (to Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy)), and the Angles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles), Saxons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxons), and Jutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutes) (to the British Isles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles)). See also: Avars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Avars), Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns), Arabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs), Vikings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikings), Varangians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian). The last phase of the migrations saw the coming of the Hungarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyars) to the Pannonian plain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_plain).
from wikipedia if you need more factual evidence I can easily collect it from Anthropology sources.

If you settled into Eastern Europe 500 to 900AD when did you settle near Skopje???

[nitkov]

These are opinions of people not facts... if you do not have facts your posts will be deleted...

I am a PhD and my opinion is that Slavs are nomads that came from the North. That is a fact. Now I should write a book also, however I will make sure I use DNA evidence to prove it, I have an opinion but a hypothesis/opinion is worth ZIPPO if it is not proved...

The Slavs have EVERYTHING to prove as
1) your language is not ancient
2) your language was emerged very recently from 2 Greek monks Methodus and Cyrilus
3) your history goes back to very recent times ie a few centuries before
4) your country is a few years old
5) you have very few artifacts, and even those come from Greeks that used to inhabit those areas
6) your population is over 40% Albanian, Bulgarian, and other ethnicities and you are saying the Greeks who have been 99% Greeks are non-Greek???

hahahahaha.....i like ur replay....first, subject of a thread are not slavic people but greeks. if u want to discuss it, open another thread, i am looking forward to debate with people like u....about this thread, if these quotes are only opinions as u reffer, isnt forums a places where opinions should be expressed and discussed. isnt a forums a places where people prove whats right and whats wrong? u want to delete my thread because u know that all i ve wrote is true. otherwise, u would discuss it and prove me wrong. but u cant.

another thing,
u lie that u are phd. if u are really phd than u should know basic principe of debating things. but no, u are about to delete things that u dont like....phd my ass.... carry on looser, delete the thread. just to let u know, i ve saved my post and ur respond.....carry on looser......hahahahahahahahah

(I have left everything here permnently (i.e. forever, for everyone to see and read, and laugh) as you will be an example for others in illogical and uneducated mannerisms.)

[admin]

For a fact I have a Ph.D and an M.Sc. It may be hard for you to imagine those things if you have very little education which seems to be the case.
If you would would care to discuss molecular genetics, genetics and anything else molecular I would be happy to give you lessons.
As for your great Arnaiz papers "Tissue Antigens" HLA typing paper, I will make sure it is rejected just like his other papers....Several of my colleagues have been asked to submit letters of rebuttal if you understand what that means.
You will see several papers on Northern Greeks and Ancient DNA evidence coming out soon when I get enough grant money. Then we will not only have historical, artifactual, and other support but also DNA evidence...which means the end of your imagination and wannabe history....

something your country tried to do with poor science and bribery but did not succeed...and if you keep making personal and ethnic derogatory remarks you will be banned forever by ip and email and you will be reported for racial slurs to your internet provider.

Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al.
Dropped Scientific Paper Lacks Merit - Nature (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v415/n6868/full/415115b_fs.html)

[nitkov]

I am a PhD and my opinion is that Slavs are nomads that came from the North. That is a fact. Now I should write a book also, however I will make sure I use DNA evidence to prove it, I have an opinion but a hypothesis/opinion is worth ZIPPO if it is not proved...

just have a look how pathetic u are.....first u say in ur opinion slavs are nomads and than u say that is a fact, supported with 0 sources...hahahahahaha

isnt it opinion, would u delete ur post too?....looser!

seconf thing....now u really convinced me that u are phd my ass. slavs are nomads.....hahahahahah....if u know anything about slavs, than u should know that slavic people are conected to the farmer culture, not nomadic...mr. phd.....hahahahahah

[nitkov]

show me EVIDENCE, facts, artifacts not quotes from some opinionated unfactual "thinkers"

how about showing me contemporary evidences about what u claim for slavs and soupousd slavic invasion.....mr. phd!:laugh:

[admin]

Just to get you started:
Slavic Migrations (http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaHistory/balkans-map/6-ad.htm)

(http://aatseel.org/dissertations/linguistics/milichp.html)

[admin]

Byzantine documents provide information about the siege of Thessaloniki by the Avaro-Slavs in 586: "If one would imagine that all Macedonians, Thracians and Achaeans gathered in Thessaloniki at that time, all of them together would not represent even a small part of that barbarian multitude which then besieged the town."

NOTE: Macedonians Thracians and Achaens are refering to the Greeks here and the seiging SLAVS are exactly what they are

http://www.unet.com.mk/mian/slavsin.htm

[admin]

Slavic Anthropology Evidence of New Settlements (http://www.phil.muni.cz/archeo/pohansko_uk.html)

[nitkov]

do u understan word contemporary mr. phd? do u know what is contemporary?

what u provide isnt c from contemporary. carry in research....seems to me that u are avoiding the subject, slavs are not subject of this thread, but history of hellenisation. how aboute refuting what i ve wrote? :rolleyes:

[admin]

Linguistic Evidence of the Later Migration of Slavs from Scientific-linguistic review paper

http://www.thegreatalexander.com/linguistic-evidence1.GIF
NOTE: PALEOLITHIC INDO EUROPEAN PIE ie Old/European for people like you is CLOSEST TO GREEK AND ITALIAN... Slavic is FARTHEST AWAY....understand???

http://www.thegreatalexander.com/linguistic-evidence1.gifhttp://www.thegreatalexander.com/linguistic-evidence1.gif

[admin]

There is no such term as a "PURE" nation, never was never will be. As to if the Greeks are more pure than the recently emerged Slavic-Skopian population that is easily answered in your "great" and poisoned/uneducated mind...

[nitkov]

where are u mr. self-proclaimed phd?....since u say that genetics is ur field, lets make a small digresion. have u heared of kalash people? they claim to be descendents of alex the great army. have a look in here:


http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=59

Source: 'Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe Is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language.' Table 1.
Rosser et al. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 67:1526–1543, 2000

Margin of error: +/- 3

hahahahahahahahahaha.....

[nitkov]

where are u mr. self-proclaimed phd?....since u say that genetics is ur field, lets make a small digresion. have u heared of kalash people? they claim to be descendents of alex the great army. have a look in here:


http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=59

Source: 'Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe Is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language.' Table 1.
Rosser et al. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 67:1526–1543, 2000

Margin of error: +/- 3

hahahahahahahahahaha.....


What is your point? Do you understand the paper because you obviously have not shown that from the hahahaha you posted just underneath....

[nitkov]

Linguistic Evidence of the Later Migration of Slavs from Scientific-linguistic review paper

http://www.thegreatalexander.com/linguistic-evidence1.gifhttp://www.thegreatalexander.com/linguistic-evidence1.gif

are u that stupid?

SHOW ME CONTEMPORARY PROOF FOR SLAVIC MIGARTION!

CONTEMPORARY!
CONTEMPORARY!
CONTEMPORARY!
CONTEMPORARY!
CONTEMPORARY!
CONTEMPORARY!
CONTEMPORARY!
CONTEMPORARY!

[admin]

The Slavic Peoples
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/agbdesign/slavic/

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/agbdesign/slavic/map02.jpg Above map from the book 'The Times Concise Atlas of World History'.
Notice the Slavic People are Migrating into ANCIENT Macedonia near Thrace.

[admin]

DISTANCE FROM Pakistani Kalash Population Distance 1 Yugoslavian (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=25) 30 2 Indian Uttar Pradesh Rajputs (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=81) 30 3 Bulgarian (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=21) 32 4 Northern Swedish (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=3) 32 5 Ukranian (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=12) 33 6 Indian Uttar Pradesh Brahmins (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=78) 33 7 Romanian (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=24) 33 8 Georgian (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=15) 34 9 Belarusian (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=11) 35 10 Norwegian (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=5) 35 11 Gotlander (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=4) 35 12 Slovenian (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=26) 36 13 Pakistani Makrani Negroid (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=62) 36 14 Pakistani Pathan (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=64) 37 15 Indian Uttar Pradesh Chamars (http://web.archive.org/web/20021104200524/http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=79) 37
You just helped me quite a bit lol you are a real smarty....

Genetic Distance means the shorter the distance the closer you are to Pakistani... as the Bulgarians are closer to the Pakistanis then you guys are relatives of the Pakistani? even closer than other Pakistanis??

Pretty hilarious where you find this GREAT information.....lmao

almost as good as the dropped genetics paper that ruined your bribed friends career....

[admin]

Greek Y-chromosomes
by Dienekes Pontikos
Last Update: 8 September, 2005
The most comprehensive study of Y-chromosomal diversity in Europe thus far is Rosser et al., [1]. The human Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. One can thus study one half of a population's ancestry (along the paternal line) by studying the Y-chromosome. Greek Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9, HG21 and HG26. None of the 35 Greek Y chromosomes are of non-Caucasoid origin.
A second Y-chromosome study including Greeks have also shown similar results. Helgason et al., [2] reports one HG16 sequence of North Eurasian provenance in a sample of 42 Greeks (at least 97.6% Caucasoid).

To put this in perspective, eight HG16 chromosomes occur in 110 Swedes (at least 92.7% Caucasoid) and three HG16 sequences in 112 Norwegians (at least 97.3% Caucasoid) were also found. HG16 is shared by many populations ranging from Europe to Mongolia.
Its origin has been placed by [7] in the Eastern range of its current geographical distribution.
A third Y-chromosome study, by Malaspina et al., [3] which included a sample of 28 continental and 83 Cretan Greeks (total sample size of 111) found no evidence of the presence of non-Caucasoid Y chromosomes in Greeks.
A fourth Y-chromosome study, by Semino et al., [4] included 76 Greeks and 20 Macedonian Greeks. One Eu6 lineage, corresponding to HG10/HG36 [5] is probably of East Asian origin. One Eu17 lineage corresponds to HG 28 which is frequent in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent [6]. In total, admixture of 2.1% is detected (if we label HG 28 as non-Caucasoid).
A fifth Y-chromosome study, by Weale et al., [8] included 132 Greek students from Athens. The same haplogroups found in [1] were detected in this study. No non-Caucasoid chromosomes were found.

The most recent and comprehensive study of Greek Y-chromosomes, by Di Giacomo et al., [9] included 154 individuals from continental Greece and 212 from Crete, Lesvos and Chios. In total, Greeks from thirteen separate locations were examined, thus giving the most complete picture of variation so far. A single haplogroup A chromosome was found (in Lesvos) which is usually found in Africa. The remainder belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations. The breakup (in percent) of the haplogroups observed) based on the set of markers typed is as follows.
P*(xR1a)R1aDEG2I-M170J2(DYS413= 18)J2*(xDYS413= 18)J*(xJ2)AY*(xA,DE,G2,I,J,P) 12.89.820.26.614.820.24.92.70.37.7

A newer study by Semino et al. [10] has studied two samples of Greeks of size 84 and 59 (Macedonian Greeks). The focus was on two specific haplogroups E and J which are frequent in the Mediterranean region and can be used to detect population movements between Europe, Africa and the Near East. 2.4% of Greeks belong in haplogroup E-M123 and 21.4% in E-M78. Clades of E prevalent in Northern or Sub-Saharan Africa were not found. According to Cruciani et al. [11] most Greeks and other Balkan people belong to a specific cluster a within haplogroup E-M78 that is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan area. E-M123 and its daughter haplogroup E-M34 originated in the Near East in prehistoric times. As for haplogroup J, most Greeks (22.8% Greeks/14.3% Macedonian Greeks) belong to J-M172 and its subclades which is associated with Neolithic population movements. Only 1.8%/2.2% of Macedonian Greeks/Greeks belonged to haplogroup J-M267 which could potentially (althought not certainly) reflect more recent Near Eastern admixture.

Thus, at present, in a total of seven studies, in which 925 Greek males were tested, one HG16, one HG28, one HG10/HG36, and one haplogroup A chromosomes have been found, for a total of 0.4% possible non-Caucasoid contribution to the modern Greek male gene pool. Additionally, the latest studies [9, 10] with a more refined version of the Y chromosome phylogeny indicate that influences from the Near East and North Africa in historical times are unlikely (perhaps in the order of ~2%). Additionally, Y chromosome haplogroup R1a which is very frequent in Slavic populations (>50%) is found in only around 9.8% of Greeks, and is also found at comparable frequencies further East (10.8% in Iraq; Al-Zahery et al. [12]) indicating that its presence in Greece need not be associated with medieval intrusions by Slavic speakers. The emerging picture of Y chromosome variation in Greece indicates genetic continuity, with slight influences from neighboring Caucasoid regions and virtually no influence from non-Caucasoids.

Flores et al. [13] have compiled haplogroup and sub-haplogroup data from three of the afore-mentioned studies which included Greek samples [4, 9, 10]. The total sample size of this meta-analysis is 442. An error has resulted in the false inclusion of 0.2% frequency of haplogroup B which was not reported in the original sources (A.M. González, personal communication). The table of haplogroup frequencies reported in [13] is given below:

ACE3b3E3b1F*(xG,H,I,J,K)GIJ1J2K2LR1*(xR1a1)R1a1 0.21.32.018.63.45.913.62.524.51.11.115.410.2

Future studies with larger samples and more detailed founder analyses will allow us to obtain a better pictures of Y-chromosome variation in Greece, Europe and the world at large. At present, it appears that modern Europeans share many of the haplogroups, while there is also geographic structure in the distribution. With the exception of the Northeast corner of Europe, all other European populations have very small traces of extra-Caucasoid genetic input(a).

References
Rosser et al. (2000) European Y-Chromosome Diversity. Am J Hum Genet 67:1526-1543
Helgason et al. (2000) Ancestry of Icelandic Y Chromosomes. Am J Hum Genet 67:697-717
Malaspina et al. (2000) Patterns of male-specific inter-population divergence in Europe, West Asia and North Africa. Ann Hum Genet 64:395-412
Semino et al. (2000) The genetic legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective
Zerjal et al. (2002) Y-Chromosomal Insights into Central Asia. Am J Hum Genet 71:466-482
Qamar et al. (2002) Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan. Am J Hum Genet 70:1107-1124
Zerjal et al. (1997) Genetic relationships of Asians and Northern Europeans, revealed by Y-chromosomal DNA analysis. Am J Hum Genet 60:11741183
Weale et al. (2001) Armenian Y chromosome haplotypes reveal strong regional structure within a single ethno-national group. Hum Genet 109: 659-674
Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Mol Phyl Evol 28:387-395
Semino et al. (2004) Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area. Am J Hum Genet (to appear)
Cruciani et al. (2004) Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa. Am J Hum Genet (to appear)
Al-Zahery et al. (2003) Y-chromosome and mtDNA polymorphisms in Iraq, a crossroad of the early human dispersal and of post-Neolithic migrations. Mol Phyl Evol 28:458-472
Flores et al. (2005) Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan. J Hum Genet. (to appear)(a) This author does not maintain that there is anything wrong in principio with non-Caucasoid influences.


from http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/greeknry/


I guess that helps with Contemporary... if you even understand anything mentioned here...
to sum it up see Greek Macedonians reference 5
and all references showing the high degree of similiarity of the Greeks to each other on the Y chromosome which recombines very little with other chromosomes and is thus a much better marker than other chromomes...indicating the Greeks are not as non-Greek as you are saying, actually quite the contrary... I will look up Bulgarians and Skopjians and see what values they have... will be interesting as Greeks are about 97% for most studies...

interestingly Arnaiz et al. data is against all these papers.... interesting

[Orphic_Hymn]

Hmmmm, interesting little babbling by our dear Slav(e)...

First oh, great wanna-be, had you the slightest of knowledge of the topic you dared to open, you would have known that to speak of a 'pure race' at this time and age is at least rediculous..

Of course Hellines are not a "pure race", but the available data demonstrates that any potential introgression into the Hellinic gene pool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people. Hence, Fallmerayer's thesis has been disproved.
Just in case you don't know which I'm sure you don't it was Fallmerayer among other German self-proclaimed scholars that gave birth to 'aryanism' and to what we saw in ww2...

Without getting into posting a loooong list of genetic research, I'll only mention what is common knowledge.. SO READ AND LEARN !!!

R1a did not originate with the Slavs (that is why it is not a Slavic marker). Its origins in a Eastern European refugium after the Last Glacial Maximum means that it has had plenty of time to spread across the continent even to places where Slavs were never present. For example, its frequency in Syrians at a frequency of 10%, close to that of Hellas, in the Saami of Scandinavia at 10%, Turks at 6.6% and in Albanians in 9.8%.
It is even found in the Dutch, at a frequency of 3.7%, a population that has been largely unaffected by any Slavonic incursion. Given that Hellas is closer to the area where R1a probably originated, it is very likely that R1a lineages would have been part of early population elements of the Balkans..

Better resolution using markers distinguishing R1a chromosomes might provide us with additional information. But, the conclusion seems unavoidable, that the contribution of Slavs to the Hellinic gene pool (if any) is very limited, certainly not enough to extinguish the noble Hellenic nation as Fallmereyer had proposed.


Should I continue with what can ONLY be described as a desecration of history !!!! Present not many but JUST ONE accurate source that will speak of an Albanian invasion into Hellas !!!

Wake up child, hstory has been written and no matter how much you and the rest of the revisionists may strive, some of us KNOW history and will always be around to rub it in your face..

In your pittifull attempt to belittle a country that not only puts food on your sorry table but some would correctly say you owe your very existance to it, you preform blasfemy of the worst kind by attempting to connect the gallant ARVANITES to the scum called Albanians.. But hey you very well might just be one of them... they are approx. 40% of the pseudo-state you claim to be from... so who knows :blink:

The Albanians and Arvanites (which are who SHOULD have been mentioned are two totally different people, with a probable connection due to intermixing but totally different and should by no means be considered as one.

The Arvanites were a Hellinic race of people from the area of Epirus, their very name comes from the ancient Hellinic district of Arvonos.
In the letter of Jacomo Barbarrigo towards the Germans in 1479 where he mentions:

"The Arvanites and the Hellines are nothing more than the same people that hate every foreigner"

and the Venetian Senate in 1471 that declared :

"The major part of our mercenary troops are Hellines and Arvanites Hellines"

Even the hero (G.Kastriotis) they claim as their own is nothing more than stolen.. Now you as a good parrot attempt to copy those who are probably your ancestors (not suprising since they too have no proof of their real origins) and attempt to construct a glorious history for your pittyfull being..

The Albanians NEVER invaded, they were clearly chased into Hellas by Tomas Prelioubovits , the first clans known to have been accepted were the Gini Boua or Spata and Petros Liosia. After them the Byzantines invited more of them into Hellas to cover for the emense military losses during various invasions.. We have proof that those were resettled during the late stages of Byzantium or the later 'imported' by the Ottomans did in an approx. 98% convert to Islam. There are hundreds of such accounts, which actually justify the title 'Tourk-Albanians' given to them by the Hellinic population..

In the area of MANI anyone that dares to discuss this issue, must know of "Mpardounia" were we could find those known as "Tourko-Mpardouniotes". Known throughtout the region's history to have been populated by imported by the Ottomans, Albanians mortal enemies of the Maniates.
This region was continuously "refueled" with converted Albanians and was used as a base from which attacks on the rebelous Maniates continuously began. Of course the Lala that were also settled in Peloponessos to assist the Mpardouniotes in the ruling of the lands..

We could mention K. Kolokotronis (father of Theodoros) in numerous battles with them, as his son is seen doing the exact same later in our history.

The immigration of Albanians is seen in the district of Thessaly near Fanario (Karditsa) at the end of the 14th cent. Where we find the Hellinic population demanding that neither M.Gaurilopoulos nor his decsendants bring any Albanians to the area and especially that there is no Frankish guard in the castle...

Anyway, there are more than a few "Albanists" that wrongly among other claims, have reached the point to consider even the very name Mani to be Albanian from the word "Mene" = mulberry as if there is anyone that can claim that there is or ever was an abundance of such trees in the region. :killme: (see N.Meksis "Mani and the Maniates)

V. Raphailidis informs us of the fact that Theodoros Kolokotronis attempts to form an aliance with the "TOYRK-ALBANIAN" Ali Farmaki, asking them to stop the massacre and plunder of the Hellinic villages.
(but weren't they our friends and allies according to your babblings ???)

While no one can deny that there was an Albanian population in Hellas. Since we know all about the Arnaoutoglou, the Lempesides, Mazrakaioi, Liopesi, Malakasaioi, the place-names of Spata, Pikermi, Lala, Mpardounia and how they got their names.
(Actually Menidi was the last area in Athens to be "Albanized" ( spoke and acted as Albanians) in order to avoid the Ottoman persecution. Sourmelis gives us a very clear discription of this.
(note that Menidi IS NOT an Albanian place name)

Another example is that of the place-name of Koropi, which is nothing more than pure Albanian propaganda which actually smears the good name of a real Hellinic patriot, DHMHTRHS KOROPHS killed in the battle of Marathon in 1824. The name is nothing more than an intentional corruption of the ancient name KRWPIAS in honor of the dead hero.
Let's at least respect the real heros, and not smear everything in the name of propaganda.

The ancient name is seen in Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War book 2 . 19,2

"and putting to flight some Athenian horse at a place called Rheiti, or the Brooks, they then advanced, keeping Mount Aegaleus on their right, through Kropia, until they reached Acharnae, the largest of the Athenian demes or townships"

The fact that people spoke the Arvanitic dialect proves nothing. We have more than a few sources that clearly mention the Hellinic population learning to speak in Arvanitika to avoid being persecuted by the Ottomans (see Sourmelis, Neroutsos, Pukevil....)
In fact, V. Raphailidis tells us the Arvanitic dialect isn't "pure" Albanian but a corrupted idiom of Albanian as proven by a number of linguists..

Questioning the ethnic origin of the population of Hellas during the Ottoman rule based on assumptions since the Arvanitic dialect seems to have been widely spread is rediculous. it's like questioning your origin on the fact that you speak fluent english or the origin of any Hellin, Albo, or Slav(e) situated abroad based on the fact that they speak the language of the country they currently live in rather than their native tongue..

We have the documented FACT as seen in Kolokotronis' or Makrigiannis' memoirs, Castelan, Finley, Tsigos, Berar...etc that Albanians raided the lands, literally terrorized the population... Does your source (if there is any) actually mention the Mpardouniotes and the Lala clans ???

As for your rediculous claim of Marko Botsari being an Albo (his bones will be rattling)

"Here secluded from the rest of the world, and before the Ottoman arms or the plundering Albanians invaded their peace, the family of the Bozzari ruled supreme, and Marco, tending his father's flocks, conceived those ideas of military glory of which were afterwards developed in combating fro the liberties of Greece."
(Burgess, Richard, "Greece and the Levant"p 78)


You continue the manipulation of historic facts by using the Vlachs as an argument..

Good, once again read my child..

There were actually two areas, one great (Thessali and parts of Makedonia) and a "small" (that was Aitolokarnania) mentioned by 10th and 12th cent authors.. as the areas where the Vlachoi lived..
It is a well known fact that, the Vlachoi were nothing more than Latinized Hellines. You see the theory of their origins to be somewhere in C.Europe, mentions that this "migration" allegedly took place in (depends on the source) either during the 7th, 9th, 10th,12th, I've even seen a Czech source mention 17th cent.
But unfortunately for all that attempt to claim the Vlachs as their own people that "migrated" towards Hellas, the first written evidence of the Vlach' s language we have that of the Byzantine collumnists, Theophanis and Theophylactus (549 A.D.) which is PRIOR to any Slav(e)..etc 'invasion, while the word Vlahs (Armani) was mentioned for the first time in 976 A.D. from Kedrinos.

The Vlachs were not known with this name but with the word "Armani". This word derives from the "Romanus lives" and it is related to the decree of Karakala (Edictum Antonianium), 212 A.D. According to this decree, the right of the Roman citizen was passed on to all the residents of the whole Roman province.

If we were to accept that they were a foreign (non-Hellinic) people, why is there no mention of them in various Turkish or European sources, as we find the Slav(e)s, Bulgarians and Albanians clearly being destinguished from Hellines?
See: Pouqueville (Voyage en Grece) Leak (Travels in Northern Greece), Heuzey (1858) Kouzinery (Voyages en Macedoine) Berard (Turkish domination and Hellenism), Wace- Thomson (Nomads of Balkans)

Besides, genetic research (D. Comas ) has proven that the that the Aromuns do not constitute a homogeneous group separated from the rest of the Balkan populations but closely related to the Balkan population in general. Making their 'clan/tribe/'race' not of same genetics or even similar origin, but ONLY based on linguistic similarity..

Finally, conserning your probable Slav(e) (since the Albos are right next to ya) ancestors..

I think you should read a bit about Byzantium since you are obviously ignorant on the issue..
Slavic enclaves "Sklavinies" found Byzantine sources mention them especially in west Macedonia and Thessaly. But these sources also mention the integration of the Slav into the Byzantine system (not the Hellinic society), by hellenising them. Many Byzantine sources mention military expeditions against the Slavs in the Hellinic area, which started from the mid-7th cent. and resulted in the gradual reestablishment of Byzantine authority.

Other souces, See :

Maria Nystazopoulou - Pelekidou, "Les Slaves dans l' Empire Byzantin", The 17th International Byzantine Congress. Major Papers (Washington D.C., August 3-8, 1986) New York 1986, pp. 345-367, with the bibliography and the quotation of the sources; for the policy of Byzantium, see p. 355.

Mention that not only did the Byzantium attempt to subjugate the new settlers but also forcibly transfered Slavic populations to Anatolia in order to achieve 2 things.
1) Slavic element in the Hellenic area was arithmetically weakened, and
2) assimilation was facilitated, since Slavs who were transferred to Anatolia found themselves among a flourishing and numerous Hellinic population.

This demographic measure was even applied vice-versa, that is, Hellinic populations from Anatolia were transplanted into Slavic populations ("epi tas Sklabinias") in order to reinforce the Hellinic element in these areas. Thus we learn, for example, that emperor Nicephorus (802-811) established in the northern Hellinic area populations which he transferred from all administrative districts ("ek pantos thematos") of Anatolia.

Beside the measures taken by the Byzantines, it is intering enough to note that during the time of Stefan Dusan (1331-1354), the Serbs expanded their domination into Makedonia but there is not one source to mention that the conquered population was Slavic. The Serbian expansion is mentioned in contemporary sources, as a conquest of Hellinic regions and people.

It is also remarkable that a few years later, during the first siege of Thessaloniki by the Turks (1383-1387), King Manuel Palaeologus, in his speech "Admonition to the people of Thessaloniki", urges the inhabitants to fight to death, for this is what their historical tradition decrees: "because we are Romioi (= Byzantine Hellines) and our country is the one of Philip and Alexander". This means that he, as well as the inhabitants, were conscious of the historical continuity of Hellenism and of their Hellinic origin which had its roots in ancient times.

See B. Laourdas, Ο "Συμβουλευτικός πρός τούς Θεσσαλονικείς" τού Μανουήλ Κομνηνού [= Manuel Komnenos' speech "Admonition to the people of Thessaloniki"], Makedonika 3 (1953-55), p. 297, 21-22; Cf. also p. 291, 1.

So you see, the Hellines may have a little Slavic ancestry, they may have a little Albanian via the Arvanites, but they are NOT of Slavic origin. The replacement theory does not agree with the facts, since the available data demonstrates that any potential introgression into the Hellinic genepool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people.

END OF STORY...
__________________

[Spartan]

Dear, Dear Nitkov,

from the following FYROM site.

:read:

http://www.ohrid.org.mk/eng/istorija/sloveni.htm

HISTORY OF OHRID



THE ARRIVAL OF THE SLAVS

From the beginning of VI century the Slavs started passing the river Danube more frequently devastating and robbing the rich Byzantine towns, fortresses and villages, penetrating even the interior of the Balkan peninsula. Records tell us that even in 517 AD, when Anastasius I (419-518) was the sovereign of the Byzantine "the two Macedonias and Thessaly were devastated by the Ghetic (Slavic) cavalry that robbed all the way through Thermopylae and Ancient Epirus".

It is certain that towards the end of VI century the Ohrid region was exposed to a mass Slavic colonization. In the 3rd decade of VII century the region of Ohrid was completely colonized by the Slav tribe of Berzites. In the 2nd decade of VII century this tribe, alongside other tribes, including Draguvites, Sagudates and Velegizites, entered into a grand Slavic alliance lead by the Slav leader Hatczon.

Apart form the Ohrid region, the Macedonian Slavic tribe Berzites also colonized the entire territory that stretched between the contemporary towns of Veles, Kavadarci, Prilep, Bitola, and Debar. The Byzantine writers started to call this whole territory "Sclavinia" (Sklabhnia).

Ever since the end of VI and the beginning of VII century radical ethnic changes occurred in the region of Ohrid. The devastated and robbed town of Lychnid was then named by a pure Slavic name of Ohrid. There are several explanations for the origin of the Slavic name. Prevailing is the one according to which the name Ohrid is entirely Slavic and that it is derived from the noun "hrid", hill .The form Ahrida or Ahris, most likely originates from the Slavic name Ohrid where "o>a".

Authors of travel chronicles wrote that Lake Lychnidos in the contemporary language was named Lake Ohrid as early as in X century, during the times of Czar Samuel. In St. Naum's hagiography, the Lake was named "White Lake". This name corresponds to the one used by the Greeks, with the meaning "bright lake". At that time the entire Ohrid region became a part of "Sclavinia -Berzitia" that was governed by an independent Slavic duke. In "Sclavinia" the Byzantine Empire did not have any power whatsoever. In the history of Ohrid and its surroundings the period from the end of VI to the middle of IX century remains the most obscure and the least studied one.

The results of the archaeological excavations in Ohrid tell us that the Slavs - Berzites who inhabited the region gradually started to absorb a great deal of the native culture. At the same time with the progressive development of the town of Ohrid, from the beginning of VII century also the Macedonian medieval culture with its specific features started to emerge in the Ohrid region and in other parts of Macedonia. This culture was fully acknowledged in X century when the Macedonian medieval state was formed. It is evident from the known facts that both political and cultural influences of the Byzantine Empire ceased to affect Ohrid region by the end of VI century.

:wave:

Now please tell myself and everyone else how there was NO SLAV INVASION!
You keep speaking about contemporary, well here it is.

Also why are you posting a source for genetic distances that is from 1991-2?
Do you really consider that contemporary? The amount of advancements made in Genetics since the early 1990's is mind blowing, so why don't you go and find some CONTEMPORARY genetic evidence.

[Spartan]

Here is more for Nitkov, and other FYROM's.

From the following site:

http://hgm2002.hgu.mrc.ac.uk/Abstracts/Publish/WorkshopPosters/WorkshopPoster11/hgm0533.htm


HGM2002 Poster Abstracts: 11. Genome Diversity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




POSTER NO: 533

Investigation of the Greek ancestry of northern Pakistani ethnic groups using Y chromosomal DNA variation

1Q. Ayub, 1A. Mansoor, 1A. Mohyuddin, 1K. Mazhar, 1S. Siddiqi, 2M. Papaioannou, 3C. Tyler-Smith, 1S.Q. Mehdi
1Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Division, Dr. A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories, P.O. Box 2891, Islamabad 44000, Pakistan, 2Unit of Prenatal Diagnosis, Center for Thalassemia, Laiko General Hospital, Athens, Greece, 3CRC Chromosome Molecular Biology Group, Department of Biochemistry, University of oxford, Oxford, UK

"Pakistan lies in a region that has witnessed multiple invasions and migrations over the centuries. Alexander the Great invaded the Indian sub-continent in 327-325 B.C. and three northern Pakistani populations, the Burusho, the Kalash and the Pathan claim descent from Greek soldiers who were left behind in this region. The Burusho reside in the Hunza and Nagar valleys, which are located in the Karakorum Mountains and speak the language isolate Burushaski. The Kalash have been isolated for centuries in the Hindu Kush mountain ranges of northern Pakistan and speak Kalasha, an Indo-European language. The Pathan tribes inhabit the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan and the southern and eastern parts of neighboring Afghanistan. They speak Pushto, also an Indo-European language. To investigate the male-line genetic relationship between the extant Greek population (assuming that modern Greek are representative of Alexander's armies) and the three Pakistani ethnic groups, 16 binary unique event polymorphisms, and 16 multiallelic, short-tandem-repeat (STR) loci, mapping on the non-recombining portion of the human Y chromosome were typed in 910 individuals. The combination of the biallelic markers identified 7 stable Y chromosomal lineages in the Greek, Burusho and Pathan populations and 5 in the Kalash. Haplogroups 1, 2, 3 and 9 were present in all four populations. The M20 A to G transition (haplogroup 28) was found in all three Pakistani populations but was absent in the Greeks. This polymorphism probably originated in or near Pakistan as it has not been found at a significant frequency except in this area. Haplogroup 21 was frequent in the Greeks but in these Pakistani populations was found only in the Pathans. Based upon haplogroup frequencies, 65-88% Greek admixture was estimated for the Kalash, consistent with a Greek origin for a significant proportion of Kalash Y chomosomes. However, the Kalash lack haplogroup 21 chromosomes and appeared distinct from the Greeks based upon principal components analysis of haplogroup frequencies and weighted population pairwise FST values based on STR variation within Y Haplogroups. They clearly contain a substantial proportion of Pakistani Y chromosomes, illustrated by their high frequency of hg 28, and the true Greek contribution remains uncertain. Estimates of Greek Y admixture for the Pathans were about 10%, and for the Burusho were close to zero. Median-joining networks of STR haplotypes revealed considerable sub-structuring of Y variation within the Kalash and Burusho, and in particular the haplogroup 21 network showed that the Pathan chromosomes were closely related to the central Greek cluster. Thus a small Greek contribution to the Pathans seems likely, the contribution to the Kalash is unclear and no contribution to the Burusho could be detected."



This research shows that all 3 groups have DNA that is related to the Central Greeks.(Thessalians and Macedonians) Some have a higher percentage of DNA from the Maternal line(mtDNA) and other groups have more from the Paternal line(Y Chromosome).

If you need any help deciphering the report I will be glad to assist or you can even ask Admin who has a Phd in related fields.

[Makedonia25]

Good stuff Spartan, proof that even the Skopjeans believe that the Slavs migrated into the area along with the rest of the world (apart from Nitkov) :)

[akritas]

Serious people they accept their Slavic origin but according their Historical philosophy or Historiography admit that the region produce History and not the people.:killme:

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Nice posts. I see the Spartans are not only warriors. Only the Hellenic nation could produce the Spartans (& Macedonians, & Epirots & Cretans & ETC...) Great work.

[Ellinas]

The percentages of the ethnicities (about) of today's Greece in a survey I made:

1. Greeks (Hellenes) 83,1 %
2. Arvanites 14,4 %
3. Chamerians 0,8 %
4. Aromanians (Vlachs) 0,6 %
5. Turks 0,6 %
6. Pomaks (Muslim Slavs) 0,2 %
7. Megleno-Romanians 0,1 %
8. Romaniotes (Greek Jews) 0,1%
9. Roma (Gypsies) 0,1 %

As you a big percentage of ''genetically non-Greeks'' who inhabit the Greek area today are the Arvanites. But how can I tell them that they are not Greeks? They always considered their selves Greek and were proud of that - they played a very important role in the Greek war of indepedence and for me they are Greeks like us. What does it means if they don't have the same DNA with the ancient Greeks?

[akritas]

Ellinas where you find these informations?

[Ellinas]

Ellinas where you find these informations?

I collected the info by wikipedia and a few other websites I can't remember now.

[Torontezos]

Wikipedia is a terrible source as it accepts articles from the general public.

[Istor]

Bre Nitkov ??

How do you recognize someone as Bosnian (or any other ethnicity ) ???????????

[Ellinas]

Wikipedia is a terrible source as it accepts articles from the general public.

Maybe, but from what I can see they have not mistakes in this subject.

[pankration]

Nitkov is a shining example of what someone can do with a little knowledge and a lot of nerve. His own quotes do not support his argument as he refers to Greek demographic models being "interrupted" by invaders. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that populations will be shifted, integrated, relocated etc. Nitkov continues to quote sources that indicate the Greeks maintained their identity through their language and faith. Nitkov, what is your point? Any nation that can withstand close to 1400 years of occupation and keep its history and culture alive should be lionized not demonized like you so badly want to do. And what of the Slavs? You yourself quote how Albanians and Bulgarians became Greek. Does this look to you like the Slavs had any real influence in Greece? Does this indicate that Greeks are not truly Greek? I thought you might have presented a scholarly case until I saw how you manipulated your information. The capper was how you responded to "admin". Your were childish, vindictive and showed that you are a product of ignorance.

[HellenicPride]

Well put and great resources. As you can see Nitkov knew he war proven wrong once he resorted to name calling. That test done by arnaiz villena is inconclusive for a few reasons.

1:This is what world-leading geneticists Neil Risch from Stanford U., Alberto Piazza from the University of Torino and L. L. Cavalli-Sforza also from Stanford had to say on the interpretations of Arnaiz-Villena based on the HLA-DRB1 marker [1]:

Even a cursory look at the paper’s diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.
The limitations are made evident by the authors’ extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute

2 Most of the other names who conducted that HLA test are Fyromanian such Dimitroski K, Zdravkoska, Blagoevska

3 If you can read Spanish which I cant but some of his words were translated all you need to do is go to this url..... http://www.elpais.es/suplementos/futuro/20010725/circuito.html

I guess some people really believe that Greeks have stupid written all over their foreheads.....

[Tsontos]

fake DNA tests, letters to aristotle

f*ck off you skop monkeys

[olvios]

Noone doubts about the origin of modern other peoples .But if you are greek they doubt it.F*ck off barbarians.

[Makedonia25]

Noone doubts about the origin of modern other peoples .But if you are greek they doubt it.F*ck off barbarians.

Yeah, but here's the thing... NO ONE ELSE apart from these IDIOTS doubt Modern Greeks being the descendants of the Ancient Greeks - but then again we are talking about these SAME IDIOTS who believe that Ancient Greek is a completely different language to Modern Greek!!! hahahahaha :lol: :lol: :lol: :wacko:

[terastios]

I wonder what this thread still doing here?
R we speaking the same lang. as Homer or not?
Say the word υδραγωγείο in "modern" greek! You can't! It's the same word for 4.000 years!
Do you want some english words with greek origin? And i'm not saying the medical terms...ex...
ΙΤΕ (ΠΑΙΔΕΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ)=ΕΛΑΤΕ=COME
ΕΞΙΤΕ(ΠΑΙΔΕΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ)=ΒΓΕΙΤΕ=EXIT!!!
If you want more i'll give you more!
I dont understand what this thread still doing here!!!

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

I wonder what this thread still doing here?
R we speaking the same lang. as Homer or not?
Say the word υδραγωγείο in "modern" greek! You can't! It's the same word for 4.000 years!
Do you want some english words with greek origin? And i'm not saying the medical terms...ex...
ΙΤΕ (ΠΑΙΔΕΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ)=ΕΛΑΤΕ=COME
ΕΞΙΤΕ(ΠΑΙΔΕΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ)=ΒΓΕΙΤΕ=EXIT!!!
If you want more i'll give you more!
I dont understand what this thread still doing here!!!

Closing the thread. Terastios, please give us some more in another thread, I guess we would run out of bandwidth (or whatever it is) if we tried to put them all :laugh::rolleyes::lol: , so lets just get a few.