Alexander: Creator or Destroyer?

[Ehetlaios]

Do you guys also agree or disagree that, even though Alexander wrote the golden page of Hellenism, he played a role in the eventual destruction of Hellenism by the Romans?

I think he stretched us too thin, far and wide, so much that our internal conflicts became even bigger.

Thus when the Romans invaded they found city-states and small kingdoms torn apart by their petty conflicts. The city-states, for their own survival allied with the romans targeting their enemies and when the romans were done with enemies, they exterminated their allies.

What would happen if Alexander stopped at Persepolis, having destroyed the persian kingdom, returned to Hellas and then decided to go to the west?

[Spartan]

"What would happen if Alexander stopped at Persepolis, having destroyed the persian kingdom, returned to Hellas and then decided to go to the west?"

That question is not really accurate. What I mean is that he had no idea that he would die at such a young age. I know from some ancient sources that Alexanders next step after returning to Persia was to go west across Europe. The Romans were already sending him embassies because they knew about him and that they were the next step west for Alexander.

If he had lived until 50-60 or even 80 years old like Ghengis Khan he would have definitely have conquered all of Europe and North Africa and the City-States would have all been united under one Greek Nationality.

[olvios]

We would have been destroyed sooner if he hadnt come.The city state got corrupted because of their inabilty to see beyond their city-states, he is not to blame but each individual city is.Still he should have liberated Ionia and then united hellenes everywhere.But we should remember that we arent in his shoes-sandals.

[olvios]

The city states betrayed hellas all the time by cooperating for petty gains with Illyrians,Thracians,Persians,Romans against their greek brothers.Alexander was the only hope of Hellas and unfortunately our ancestors and even we have nt learned our lesson yet.

[Tsontos]

Alexander = King

[Ehetlaios]

Alexander = King

I am not saying the opposite. If after Persepolis he cared a bit about the kingdom he created things could be different. But then he wouldn't be Alexandros.

[pankration]

Hellas was a very fraticidal society in the ancient times. Alexander united them if anything. If it wasn't for Alexander, Hellenism would not have spread as far as it did.
If Alexander had lived for another 20 years, the primary language of the world today would be Greek, not English. If Hellenism had been maintained longer in the Middle East would Islam have ever been born? There would not have been a Roman Empire and who knows what else would have occurred. It would probably make a great exercise to explore what might have happened if Alexander had lived longer.:dry:

[Truth Bearer]

If Alexander had lived longer Rome would not have become a power.....The idea after his return from the ends of the earth(India) was to take on Arabia subdue it and then go back to Greece and cross the Adriatic and take on the Romans to revenge his brother in law Alexander IV of Epirus.
The issue here is though whether his companions wanted to follow him still or not.

[Kuniska]

Θα καταθέσω τον πνευματικό μου οβολό με μικρή δόση σεξισμού και ελπίζω να με συγχωρέσετε οι άρρενες του φόρουμ. Ο Μεγας Αλέξανδρος είχε μεν μια αξιόλογη προσωπικότητα αν κρίνουμε απο το πως δάμασε το άλογο του μέχρι και το ότι μαζί με τους στρατιώτες του πήρε εσκεμμένα ανθρώπους των γραμμάτων και των τεχνών για να διαδώσει τον Ελληνικό πολιτισμό, αλλά ήταν άνδρας. Κάποια στιγμή του τη βάρεσε ο εγωισμός στο κεφάλι το πάνω καθώς και το κάτω κεφάλι με τις συζύγους που έκανε! Ηταν αχόρταγος και κινήθηκε να πάρει όση γη μπορούσε. Πιστεύω ότι αν είχε πάρει Ελληνίδα γυναίκα και δε Λακεδαίμονα θα μπορούσε να τον συγκρατήσει και να τον κάνει να σκεφτεί τους νόμους και τους κληρονόμους του με τις προσωπικότητες τους λίγο παραπάνω. Επειδή όμως πήρε γυναίκα μακρυά απο την κουλτούρα μας που δεν μπόρεσε ποτέ να τον καταλάβει κατέληξε να μείνει στην ιστορία ως Μέγας μεν αλλά ότι έφτιαξε δεν είχε καλή απόληξη δε... Ηθικό δίδαγμα. Προτιμάτε ντόπιο κρέας ειδικά αν θέλετε να αφήσετε κάτι στην Ελλάδα. :rotflmao:

[akritas]

Kuniska one of the reason that the South Greek City States call as barbarians the Northern Greek Kingdoms is the multi-marriage customs of the men, specially the heads of them.

Alexander just follow this Macedonian Royal Habit.:)

[Istor]

åßÃ*áé ãåãïÃ*üò üôé ÞôáÃ* åýóôñïöïò êáé ðáÃ*Ã�îõðÃ*ïò óôñáôéùôéêÜ áëëÜ äåÃ* åß÷å ôçÃ* êáëëéÃ�ñãåéá ôïõ ðåñéêëÞ.

ç áðÜÃ*ôçóç óôçÃ* åñþôçóç "äçìéïõñãüò Þ êáôáóôñïöÃ�áò;" åßÃ*áé âÃ�âáéá äçìéïõñãüò.

[Kuniska]

Ακρίτα αδερφέ,
Και οι Σπαρτιάτες εκαναν ζευγαρωτούς γάμους, μπορεί αυτό λοιπόν να είναι δωρικό συνήθειο, αλλά οι Σπαρτιάτες παντρεύονταν Σπαρτιάτισσες. Αν παντρεύονταν ξένες, απο άλλη πόλη, θα έπρεπε ο απόγονος τους να δείξει μεγάλη ανδρεία και Λακωνική παιδεία για να μπορέσει να ονομαστεί πολίτης της Λακεδαίμωνας. Ο Μέγας Αλέξανδρος έκανε συντρόφους γυναίκες (; αλήθεια δεν ήξερα ότι είχε παραπάνω γυναίκες εγώ είχα μείνει στην Ρωξάνη μόνο...:eyebrow:) που δεν είχαν παιδεία. Για μένα για να στηριχτεί το σπίτι πρέπει και οι δύο κολώνες του να είναι γερές. Αν η μία είναι γερή και η άλλη όχι, τότε ακόμα και η γερή θα λυγίσει με το βάρος της στέγης και το σπίτι θα πέσει. Για αυτό έπεσε το σπιτικό του και μάλιστα πολύ πριν το θάνατό του αφού είχε ήδη να αρχίσει να δείχνει σημάδια κούρασης. Σκότωσε τον φίλο του τον Κλείτο αν θυμάσαι καλά αφού είχαν πάρει τα μυαλά του αέρα!
ΥΓ Οι Αθηναίοι ήταν οι πολιτισμένοι και όλοι οι υπόλοιποι βάρβαροι! Κάποια πράγματα δεν αλλάζουν ποτέ! :lol:

[Kuniska]

Istor, είχε δασκαλο τον Αριστοτέλη... Πόσο πολύ να προκόψει το παιδί;

[Ehetlaios]

Καταρχήν να θυμίσω ότι η Σπάρτη την εποχή του Αλέξανδρου ήταν ένα κοτέτσι... Ο Επαμεινώνδας έκανε τα μαγικά του και την ξεπάστρεψε.

Δεύτερον, πρόσφατα διάβασα την "Λακεδαιμονίων Πολιτεία" του Ξενοφώντος και είναι αλήθεια οτι οι γυναίκες δεν ήταν αποκλειστικές στην Σπάρτη. Συγκεκριμένα ο Ξενοφών ανέφερε κάτι σαν "είναι πιο όμορφο για τις γυναίκες να έχουν δύο σπίτια και δύο συζύγους, αλλά και για τους άντρες να έχουν τα παιδιά τους αδέλφια που δεν θα διεκδικήσουν την πατρική περιουσία"...

Τρίτον, μακάρι να είχαμε όλοι έναν Αριστοτέλη να μας διδάξει...

[Ehetlaios]

Πάντως κατα κάποιο τρόπο ο Αλέξανδρος μας κατέστρεψε κιόλας.

Μας πήγε πολύ μακριά και είμασταν πολύ λίγοι...

Σαν τον Τζένγκις Χαν ένα πράγμα που πήρε 200,000 Μογγόλους και κατέκτησε τον μισό κόσμο...

Η αυτοκρατορία του Αλέξανδρου θα έπεφτε ακόμα και αν αυτός ζούσε... Τα επόμενα χρόνια της ζωής του θα τα πέρναγε καταστέλνοντας εξεγέρσεις σε όλα τα μήκη και πλάτη της αυτοκρατορίας. Είχαν ήδη αρχίσει τα προβλήματα.

[Kuniska]

Και τώρα η Σπάρτη είναι μια σύγχρονη πόλη. Οι νόμοι του Λυκούργου εξακολουθούν να είναι κώδικας τιμής για πολλούς όμως και ο απόηχος της Σπάρτης δεν πέθανε ποτέ παρότι μπήκε στη μέση αυτός ο ρημάδης ο εγωισμός και την κατέστρεψε!
Εγώ θα προτιμούσα τον Σωκράτη ή τον Δημόκριτο για δάσκαλο. Εγώ βέβαια είμαι γυναικα και ο Αριστοτέλης δε θα καταδεχόταν ούτως ή άλλως.
Και το 22 πήγαμε πολύ μακρυά και καταστραφήκαμε. Ξέρεις κάτι όμως. Θα πρέπει να παίρνουμε και ρίσκα. Τα πάντα στη ζωή είναι 50 50. Και να μαθαίνουμε απο αυτά. Η ιστορία είναι μεγάλος δάσκαλος.

[Istor]

ï áëÃ�îáÃ*äñïò äéÜâáóå óßãïõñá üìçñï, çñüäïôï, ôõñôáßï, .... áëëÜ äåÃ* Ã*ïìßæù üôé äéÜâáóå ðïôÃ� ðëÜôùÃ*á, óïöïêëÞ, ....
ἘÃ*á ðáéäáñÃ�ëé 23 ÷ñïÃ*þÃ* äåÃ* ìðïñåß Ã*á Ã�÷åé óïößá.

ïëá ôá ðñÜãìáôá óôçÃ* éóôïñßá Ã�÷ïõÃ* áñ÷Þ êáé ôÃ�ëïò: 'ðáÃ* äå ðÃ�öõêå êáé åëáôôïýóèáé': èïõêõäßäçò.

ç åêóôñáôåßá ìáò óôçÃ* Üãêõñá ÞôáÃ* ìéá ýâñéò.

[olvios]

The diadoch actions for 200 years corrupted the city state and not Alexander that fought for 10 to rid us of the Persian empire.

[olvios]

Alexander is not to blame for the fall of Greece.It is irrelevant to relate him to this.He had a mission and he suceeded.

The fall of Greece came from the failiure of the city-states (since the Persian wars)to create a permanent city-state panhellenic league in a peacefull manner.They failed and payed the price by turning on eachother as in the past in civil wars from internal forces(their own ego and short sight) or/and external ones(Persia).Even the diadochs are not fully to blame they just played the last death throes.From 500 bc(as the need was made clear then) to 140 bc where Greece falls to Rome the only chance given to unite was with Alexander & Phillip.Other efforts never had a chance.

[Truth Bearer]

We never unified as proved that Alexander's whole empire broke up into little pieces run by the diadochi and doing what the Greeks do best bitching & fighting each other.......By the time the Romans came around we were spent exhausted from wars economically drained.......If we had UNIFIED as one the Romans would not have stood a chance.

[Alita]

True, Greeks never liked playing Follow the Leader, even if that leader is Alexander.

[Alita]

Πιστεύω ότι αν είχε πάρει Ελληνίδα γυναίκα και δε Λακεδαίμονα θα μπορούσε να τον συγκρατήσει

:lol::clapping:

Poly wraio ayto!

[akritas_gs]

True, Greeks never liked playing Follow the Leader, even if that leader is Alexander.

Greeks never follow the leader, even when they do in the end they just stop.

[Alita]

San auto to Sabbatokyriako, 2,362 years ago, eggenh8h apanw sth gh mas o Megas Alexandros.

Opoios apo sas yiortazei ta genne8lia tou/ths auto to Sabbatokyriako, eiste se poly kalh parea. Xronia polla! :)

[Mygdonia]

If ALexander returned to Greece in health he would have no doubt conquered the West as well.. his great great great great grand neice Cleopatra almost did it.
The wealth the Hellenistic empire accumulated was phenomenal.

[Lyssius]

Not much of it wen't back to greece though, he kept alot of it in susa and babylon... in addition, I think people are forgetting he didn't keep the greeks around for long, just after the Granikos he sent them home again

[Ehetlaios]

Not much of it wen't back to greece though, he kept alot of it in susa and babylon... in addition, I think people are forgetting he didn't keep the greeks around for long, just after the Granikos he sent them home again

:huh: :unsure:

:lol:

[Alita]

Lyssius, care to tell us some more about yourself? Some of your points are on the enigmatic side, to say the least. Where are you from?

[Lyssius]

Oh, i'm only really qualified to speak as somone who's studied alexander for some time. I just think he's somtimes over-glorified, while his very human nature goes unnoticed.

[Paulos Melas]

Alexander completed and perfected Hellenism. From scattered city-states and two archaic greek kingdoms-macedonia, and epirus- he created a nation: The greek nation.
Alexander gave the opportunity to Hellenism to radiate.
Such was the strenth of what was created from Alexander that when the romans conquered the east nothing stopped. We never spoken for roman civilisation but we speak for graeco-roman civilisation.
The Alexander world assimilated the Romans as well, the greek remained the lingua franca of the east for a millenium.
And when the western lands that never received the benefits of alexandrian influence couldn t follow the development of the east Constantine the great created constatinople, the new rome, and as such the greek empire of late antiquity and middle ages, the Byzantine empire was born
So Alexander s legacy gave birth to Byzantium, the radiant greek empire who offered so much to christianity to art and letters and to hellenism.
And thanks to byzantium the greeks we survived the dark ages of the barbarian turkish occupation, and after 400 years of slavery we reborn our state upon our birth lands.
Without Alexander the greeks we would have followed the doom of egyptians, babylonians, and romans: the extinction through the ages.
Nonetheless what alexander did for us is to create this necessary frame and intitiate all those evolvements so that the greeks to constitute today the oldest nation surviving intact in Europe.

[Demetrius Doukas]

Alexander completed and perfected Hellenism. From scattered city-states and two archaic greek kingdoms-macedonia, and epirus- he created a nation: The greek nation.
Alexander gave the opportunity to Hellenism to radiate.
Such was the strenth of what was created from Alexander that when the romans conquered the east nothing stopped. We never spoken for roman civilisation but we speak for graeco-roman civilisation.
The Alexander world assimilated the Romans as well, the greek remained the lingua franca of the east for a millenium.
And when the western lands that never received the benefits of alexandrian influence couldn t follow the development of the east Constantine the great created constatinople, the new rome, and as such the greek empire of late antiquity and middle ages, the Byzantine empire was born
So Alexander s legacy gave birth to Byzantium, the radiant greek empire who offered so much to christianity to art and letters and to hellenism.
And thanks to byzantium the greeks we survived the dark ages of the barbarian turkish occupation, and after 400 years of slavery we reborn our state upon our birth lands.
Without Alexander the greeks we would have followed the doom of egyptians, babylonians, and romans: the extinction through the ages.
Nonetheless what alexander did for us is to create this necessary frame and intitiate all those evolvements so that the greeks to constitute today the oldest nation surviving intact in Europe.


That is my opinion. :)

[Alita]

Alexander was one of the greatest creators in history, second only to God. He had divine gifts which God gave him to show the world that He gives power to whomever He wants and when God is with a man, that man cannot fail, even if he is outnumbered 100 to 1. God made Alexander strong, gave him courage, intelligence, compassion, foresight, diligence, self-confidence, wit, ambition, skill, tolerance, creativity, resilience and above all, FOCUS. What began as a short, young, awkward, feminine boy who was criticised by his macho father and brought up in the backwoods of a country past its prime and poised for collapse, turned into the greatest master warrior, military genius, world-unifier, legendary hero and famous NAME the world has ever known. Next to Jesus and Mohammed, Alexander is the most well-known name the world over, greater than Caesar, Napoleon and Charlemagne put together. Very rarely does a human being come along of whom all are compelled to unanimously acknowledge, "Yes. They were great," and even whose enemies grudgingly, yet admiringly, pay respect to.

Destroyer?

No destroyer can leave behind an everlasting legacy for generations to follow, narrate and be inspired by. If you doubt me, just check out YouTube and see how many people from all over the world have put together beautiful videos simply for their love of Alexander, nothing else, no other motive, just because they want to pay him tribute, even now, all these millennia after his death. In fact, I will make it easy for you, here is one right here: YouTube - Alexander: The Greatest Men In All The History



And she's not even Greek. ;)




Nor Skopian. :p



Only passion and true inspiration can make someone put together a masterpiece like that; or go to another country simply to study ancient Greek history, just like a friend of mine in the UK who left her beautiful life in Italia, just to study about Alexander, whom she loves, in cold, wet Britain. And passion and inspiration can never come from a destroyer.

A person who lives with God, as one with God, who listens to their heart above the desires of the world, who is not prejudiced or afraid or cunning against his neighbour, who is generous and trustworthy, who is loyal and brave and honest, who seeks to build up and create and who is not afraid to speak the truth in love to rebuke those in need of it; to in essence be a good leader... a person like that will be loved by all and will never completely die.

Whoever believes in God has God. Whoever knows God not, let Alexander be his lifelong companion and guide.

[pankration]

Obviously Alexander predated Christianity by hundreds of years but if it were not for him the faith would never have flourished. It was Hellenism that provided the means of communication and it was he who spread it. It should also be noted that he was a very spiritual man who took his faith seriously and by the way, acknowledged and tolerated other faiths. A Renaissance man 1700 years before the idea even existed. That's why he is the Great.

[Alita]

Alexander knew he was the closest thing to a god any man had ever known; hence, he had no need to be afraid of the so-called 'powers' of established gods, whether those be Greek or foreign. Therefore he was free to show respect to whomever he pleased, knowing that no divine force would condemn him. However, he did have the Unknown God with him, despite his desire to be worshipped, and also, he refused to acknowledge the Indian deities with their inhuman practices. Regarding Renaissance art, most of it is modelled on Alexander, so it's interesting to see your reference to him as a kind of source for this phenomenon.

[Paulos Melas]

You cannot speak about rennaissance and Alexander or Renessaisance and ancient Greece.
Greece was the cradle of civilisation (letters, art, science, philosophy etc.)
Everytime a barbaric nation is getting excivilised by adopting the ways of greek antiquity then this period is called renaissance for this state ( see carolingian renaissance, italian renaissance etc.)
Greece is simply Greece. The Alpha and Omega of civilisation. Its crandle.

[Truth Bearer]

Spot on Pavlos Melas....

[Charles Reilly]

W. W. TARN: Alexander the Great and theUnity of Mankind. (From the Proceedingsof the British Academy, vol. XIX.) Pp. 46.London : Milford, 1933. Paper, 2s. 6d. IN this thoughttul and thought-compelling paper Dr. Tarn presents Alexander in a somewhat unfamiliar light as the first propounder of the gospel of universal goodwill among mankind. The main lines of his argument are that ( I ) Alexander visualized nothing less than this ; (2) among earlier Greek thinkers 6p6uoiawas usually meant to begin and end at home ;(3) the Stoic 6p6vora was in the first instance borrowed from Alexander, and then reduced from a vital force to an inert gas by equation with the pre-existent cosmic harmony. The crux of this theory may be sought in Eratosthenes'account of Alexander's philosophy(quoted by Strabo, 1. 66). Here Alexander's 6pbvora is confined to the select class of cd85~ipoi&v8per. But the context suggests that (unlikethe Stoics) Alexander reckoned the sheep as far more numerous than the goats. Dr. Tarn admits that the germs of Alexander's idea might be found in earlier Greek thought. It may be worth recalling that Alcidamas reckoned all men as @v'ucr ihehBrpor, and that Isocrates sold the pass of Greek privilege when he defined Hellenism as a matter of culture,not of race. But, as Dr. Tarn aptly insists, Alexander's o,u^voza connoted more than absence of racial privilege, and the king reckoned it his duty not merely to recognize fraternity which others had brought about, but himself to sow its seeds on every soil (except the stoniest). Dr. Tarn's paper confirms the view which he has put forth elsewhere-a view also expressed in Wilcken's great work on Alexander-that the Macedonian king was not only one of theancient world's great practitioners, but one of its great visionaries. ,V.CARY.C'niversity of London.

[Promethean Fire]

W. W. TARN: Alexander the Great and theUnity of Mankind. (From the Proceedingsof the British Academy, vol. XIX.) Pp. 46.London : Milford, 1933. Paper, 2s. 6d. IN this thoughttul and thought-compelling paper Dr. Tarn presents Alexander in a somewhat unfamiliar light as the first propounder of the gospel of universal goodwill among mankind. The main lines of his argument are that ( I ) Alexander visualized nothing less than this ; (2) among earlier Greek thinkers 6p6uoiawas usually meant to begin and end at home ;(3) the Stoic 6p6vora was in the first instance borrowed from Alexander, and then reduced from a vital force to an inert gas by equation with the pre-existent cosmic harmony. The crux of this theory may be sought in Eratosthenes'account of Alexander's philosophy(quoted by Strabo, 1. 66). Here Alexander's 6pbvora is confined to the select class of cd85~ipoi&v8per. But the context suggests that (unlikethe Stoics) Alexander reckoned the sheep as far more numerous than the goats. Dr. Tarn admits that the germs of Alexander's idea might be found in earlier Greek thought. It may be worth recalling that Alcidamas reckoned all men as @v'ucr ihehBrpor, and that Isocrates sold the pass of Greek privilege when he defined Hellenism as a matter of culture,not of race. But, as Dr. Tarn aptly insists, Alexander's o,u^voza connoted more than absence of racial privilege, and the king reckoned it his duty not merely to recognize fraternity which others had brought about, but himself to sow its seeds on every soil (except the stoniest). Dr. Tarn's paper confirms the view which he has put forth elsewhere-a view also expressed in Wilcken's great work on Alexander-that the Macedonian king was not only one of theancient world's great practitioners, but one of its great visionaries. ,V.CARY.C'niversity of London.


I cant make sense of this Charles, sorry mate but can you paste a link?