The Arch-Enemy is here!

[USA-Kiwi]

This is the person whom I'm sure that Orphic Hymn has been telling you about. I'm the expatriate New Zealander living in California, USA who has the effrontery to support the Turkish Cypriot people. Of course, that is sufficient in a lot of your eyes to my having taken out my own death warrant, but considering that I hold extremist Greek nationalism responsible for the situation on Cyprus and that this forum is obsensively for the free airing of views, I just wonder how roughly I'm going to be received here.

Just for the record, I don't blindly support Turkey as there have been certain things that that country has done that I certainly do not support, but I support what I deem an inalienable right: the right of the Turkish Cypriot people to self-detemination, and if the Turkish military presence is the only thing that is stopping the intercommunal violence from erupting, then I'm all for it.

Dean Thomas.

[Slayer]

This is the person whom I'm sure that Orphic Hymn has been telling you about. I'm the expatriate New Zealander living in California, USA who has the effrontery to support the Turkish Cypriot people. Of course, that is sufficient in a lot of your eyes to my having taken out my own death warrant, but considering that I hold extremist Greek nationalism responsible for the situation on Cyprus and that this forum is obsensively for the free airing of views, I just wonder how roughly I'm going to be received here.

Just for the record, I don't blindly support Turkey as there have been certain things that that country has done that I certainly do not support, but I support what I deem an inalienable right: the right of the Turkish Cypriot people to self-detemination, and if the Turkish military presence is the only thing that is stopping the intercommunal violence from erupting, then I'm all for it.

Dean Thomas.

Welcome to the forum Dean

I'm sure that as long as you stick to the forum rules you will be fine.

My question to you is do you agree in the right of self determination of the kurdish people in Turkey which make up a higher minority percentage in Turkey then the Turkish Cypriots do in the Republic of Cyprus?

In regards to Cyprus, do you not feel the British have anything to do with instigating the inter communal violence in Cyprus rather then blaming extremist Greek nationalism?

[Tsontos]

but considering that I hold extremist Greek nationalism responsible for the situation on Cyprus

Hmmm makes me wonder about the situation like for TCs when a mob started destroying and burning Greek properties in Constantinople, all the while chanting "Cyprus is Turkish"; nearly 20 years before the "liberation" of Northern Cyprus?

Welcome anyway dean, where does a TC get a name like that?

[Hellas7]

and if the Turkish military presence is the only thing that is stopping the intercommunal violence from erupting, then I'm all for it.



Welcome to the forums first of all.


But what I quoted above, do you actually believe? You think if the Turkish military left Greek Cypriots would start massacreing Turks? Do you honestly believe that and can say it with a straight face?

[USA-Kiwi]

Okay....

As well as Turkish Cypriot self-determination, I do support Kurdish self-determination. The Kurds do deserve their own state. I don't believe allowing Kurdistan becoming independent would compromise the ideals of Ataturk's Republic of Turkey, just as I don't think allowing Northern Cyprus to be recognized would compromise the territory south of the Green Line, or the Hellenic Republic.

In regards to Cyprus, my doctrine can be summed up by this simile: A divorced couple cannot live peacefully together under the same roof. The partnership republic proved to be unworkable so partition - in my mind - is really the only solution. I have close friends who are Turkish Cypriot and I've been following the issue long enough to conclude that the Turkish Cypriots have been unfairly treated. We can all point fingers as to who is to blame for the intercommunal violence that racked the island, but I can't picture Turkish Cypriots feeling safe in a country that (a) wants to remove the constitutional safeguards enshrined in the 1960 Constitution. The Greek National Anthem being officially used as the Cypriot national anthem is hardly reassuring in itself. Makes an enosis statement, don't you think? Oh, and by the way, I oppose Turkish annexation of Northern Cyprus, just as much as I oppose Cyprus being absorbed into the Hellenic Republic.

Britain's role in Cyprus is something I can't really answer, save that I think the sovereign base areas should be ceded back to the Southern Cypriot government. Britian has played a lot of weird games with most of her former colonies in the past (causing nothing but mayhem in the process), and Cyprus would not be an exception to that rule. Still, coming from a country that teaches her children to adore Her Majesy Queen Elizabeth II, it's hard for me to say that the Union Jack does not represent all that is good. My wife (being of Irish Descent) makes her opinion VERY clear on that.

Dean.

[Tsontos]

Coming back to this:

but considering that I hold extremist Greek nationalism responsible for the situation on Cyprus


Which kind of nationalism was used by the British first to instigate intercommunal violence, Greek or Turkish? The answer is Turkish and given that how is Greek nationalism responsible for the situation in Cyprus but Turkish nationalism is not?

The British and Americans played Greek and Turkish nationalism in Cyprus like a fiddle (Still try to do so as well), the difference is that the Turks were the ones favoured in this instance, they got their "liberation".

Dont use Enosis like its an inherently evil term either. Even TCs voted to accept union with Greece because it was the logical thing to happen when when they make up less than 18% minority. Look at the Muslims in Thrace, are their rights abused? One things for sure is that they still live in in the place the Laussane treaty assured them, unlike the Greeks of Constantinople who were removed in a calculated move to agitage the situation in Cyprus.

[Orphic_Hymn]

So you finally managed..
Bravo to Kiwi :clapping: (it was about time)

But don't celebrate that vanity, whomever has heard of you, does, due to their visit in Rachel's blog.

[Euklid]

Hello there Kiwi.

Kiwi, these events Cyprus, Kurdish issue, Macedonian Issue, Imvros and Tenedos, Imia all are geo-politics. You know that in geo-politics, many are the parties concerned.

Turkey and Greece follow generally the same lines. Ethnical Purity, ethnic cleansing. The thing is that Turkey was the Empire and Greece the freedom-fighter. Turkey in the past century, commited so many population movements, propably the largest in Human History. 1.5 million found the way to Athens, 353.000 Pontians found the way to Heaven, along with another million and something Armenians, Kurds will soon earn their place in the Parthenon of the Dead, The Syrians already have.

Then the Imvros and Tenedos Issue, the Open Prisons that these islands became. The 1955 Pogrom in Istanbul, the 1960's events in Cyprus ofc, are not justified due to all this history, but our sides both have found solutions in much worse aggressive policies from Turkey's part, Well you know what, solutions require mutual understanding, and the Greeks are used to backing down and allowing Turkey to re-affirm itself...The Turks have to understand that the time that we were their slaves is long gone, and the slaves will not always bow to the demands...Now its the ex-Mastres turm to bow and respect. In the 70's the Turkish minority was less than 10.000 people, now its more than 300.000 and 50.000 are the soldiers. The GC side has bargained a lot on the issue, and has offered the "right" to a joint government, it was rejected not by TC, but by Turkey.

If you look at the Issue as it is, a continuation of the Turkish policy within the Empire, you will understand a lot of things for example, The Imperial Syndrome that plagues the Turks and as your wife suggets even plagues Great Britain. If you isolate the issue in it self, you will start feeling pity for all the poor TC's that are not recognized by anybody and struggle to survive. I empathize them, i know plenty of them as well, first they will blame their own gov. and then Cyrpiot rejection. Most of these people are settlers, the houses they live in do not belong to them, they didnt build them on their own, and historical memory is more fresh than people think that it is.

This issue has come to be a stalemate due to Turkeys ego, not due to Greek nationalism.

A simple experiment: Ask a Turk, what is he proud for? And if the word "Army" is not there....
Ask a Turco-Cypriot, if his house was built by him?
Ask the Turkish government, why Ottoman titles to ownership are not valid?

And you know what, look at the Treaty of Lausanne, and make a check list, how many points has the Turkish goverment respected and how many points has the Greek side respected? This is not rocket science. A little bit of googling and a little bit of maths.

Ofc, empathising with people is not bad, but the other side is not always to blame for....and if it is, please explain to me how and why Greek nationalism, affects the outcome of this political issue?

And in the end, you can always ask the neighbors...Syria, Lebanon, Egypt...;)

Cheers.

[oldjedi]

To Kiwi ..

What you say , roughly is that in a FREE country , where 98% of the population is negroes and 2% of the population is caucasians , it is the absolute right of the neighboring caucasian country to invade , the first mentioned FREE country , and by occupying a portion of this FREE country , to establish a caucasian state ...
This , my friend , is pure and clean racism ....
On the other hand , you say that this 2% have the right od self-determination , yes ?
This applies of course to ALL MINORITIES , i am sure .. The Chinese in USA , the Native Indians in USA , the Mexicans in USA , ANY minority in USA , the French in Quebec , the natives in New Zeeland , the Aborigins in Australia , and so on , people that have more than a 2% in their countries ... Is that correct ??
As you understand , i am sure , this kind of political reasoning is out of any logic.
IF there was national violations in Cyprus from the Greek Cypriots part , i am sure that you have resolutions of UN and EU , condemning them ...
Can you post some of these resolutions ??

Thanks in advance .

P.S By the way , I happen to have UN resolutions pointing that the TC's were conducting acts of violence against the GreekCypriots , with the help of Turkey ...

Old.

[Flipper]

I think most of you have covered me. But I want to emphasize the comment of Voulgaroktonos. If you and your people USA-Kiwi want to examine the violence in Cyprus and open you eyes, you would see that the real enemies of the Greeks and the Turks in Cyprus were the Brittish. Both Greek and Turks fell because they rebelled against them. Karaolis, Dimitriou etc. I'm sure you have some turkish names as well. So, why does Turkey never mention anything about the Britts that misstreated both our nations? Why fight alone in this front while you keep your mouth shut (I'm talking about official actions).

[Orphic_Hymn]

Why fight alone in this front while you keep your mouth shut (I'm talking about official actions).
Good question...

The answer is quite simple and its seen in the following saying.

"you don't talk about rope in the house of the one that was hung"

By accepting that the British are part of the problem they indirectly accept their own fault since after the talks of 55' Turkey fully supported the British strife against EOKA, an EOKA that wanted to rid the island from their rule. (the secondary target of 'enosis' is a different issue but in either way the primary target had to be implemented for the second to be pursued)

Then we move further and see that by acknowledging their support to the British, they are then forced to admit that they formed and supported both Volkan and TMT which acted NOT in the interest of the Turkish Cypriot community, but instead instigated the community in question to take up arms against the fighters of EOKA and by doing so 'work' favor of the British rule.

Its a well proven fact that prior to the formation of either Volkan or the later TMT there never was a single account of an intentional hit against a Turkish Cypriot.
Its not a coincidence that whatever hits took place, were strictly against auxiliary troops aka 'military police' which was purely composed of Turkish Cypriots after the above mentioned talks and agreements.

[USA-Kiwi]

As Orphic Hymn has statyed in his posting on this forum, my attitudes to Greek Nationalism can be clearly read on Rachel Salomon's blog. I can't apologize for how I feel on this issue. I firmly believe that the Turkish Cypriot people deserve their state. Perhaps not as the Green Line is currently laid out, but given the animosities between Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot (neither of whom consider themselves CYPRIOT first), a unitary state is just simply doomed to fail. Short of ethnically cleansing (and I'm not going to go into the Akritas plan or the quotes of Makarios III or Sampson), two hostile peoples under one roof is not going to ensure peace. Formalizing the partition is to my mind, the only solution.

What really gets me is that thorough all of the news reports that I have read, Tassos Papadopoulos has never seriously reached out to the Turkish Cypriot people. He claims to represent all Cypriots, but apart from some small measures (property liens for some lost T/C properties in the South as a result of the events of 1974, finally allowing some T/C's to vote and get RoCy passports), he has not given out really any concrete proposals that would allay Turkish Cypriot fears. And personally, when I see a picture of the man, I don't see a Cypriot. I see a Greek. How can that inspire confidence?

Dean.

[Hellas7]

neither of whom consider themselves CYPRIOT first

Then you have not really talked to alot of Cypriots.


Kiwi, the TC obviously do not see the GC as a threat, as they

a) they voted for reunification

b) many work and go to the south all the time.


Fear is an excuse you are using to support your case.


Nevertheless, lets brush aside the past and who's fault it is and unification and go with your presentation.

"I firmly believe that the Turkish Cypriot people deserve their state."

ok. So lets go from here.


Perhaps not as the Green Line is currently laid out


Then how would it be laid out? Show where the borders would be? Would both sides be acceptable to it?


How would you deal with the right of return for GC and TC to their homes and compensations?

[Euklid]

Kiwi, can you please explain to us, how does Greek natyionalism plays its part on the subject, you expect us to read Rachels Blog, and track your wisdom?

I just checked the blog shortly and the only thing i saw, was: " Well done rachel" "Good sources" repeated about a dozen times during my brief visit.

Now, fuck the sources, discuss..ethnic cleansing was commited, by both sides, yes its true, partition was encouraged by Makarios, but you favor partition, so it doesnt really count.

What is your thesis mate?

That Cyprus must recognise the occupied land?

Ok, why?

Why should the TC's become a TC state with Turkey, as a pimp? Instead of becoming Turkeys pimp? An EU State? Through reunification?

Whic would help mostly the TC people? Objectively speaking?

Why should the GC's deny their birthplaces for ever?

Give me one good reason, that i would come to your house, force you out, and 30 years later, when you have the chance to take it back, you wont but you will officially give it to me as a present or a goodwill token?
Why? or what do you actually believe that the current poltical situation leans towards the GC"S or The TC's, after all thats why you are here, and thats why Rachel's blog is up there, in an attempt to turn the tide, for......what reason? The poor TC's? For what? 300.000 souls and their wallets? R u kidding, If for 300.000 wallets, Greece, should bow to Turkey's demands, then as we say in Greece, "paei to kleisame to magazi"=" its gone, we had to close the shop" LOL...:p.

Now , please give me one good reason, it better not be a psychological one, cause if psychology was in the equation of Politics..then as above...'the shop will close".

[Euklid]

I just found some pearls by our visitor: LOL, :lol:

"1. Greeks hate Turks"

And Turks hate Greeks, OK, you are a smart one, innit?

"2. Greeks treat Aegean Sea as their own little duck-pond"

LOL, this one is the greatest..didnt you know that Kemal Ataturk himself, declared that the islands must stay to Greece and the continental mainland to Turkey? :lol:

"3. Greeks killed Turks in Cyprus"

You see that is our difference with the Turks, while we killed a couple of them in Cyprus, they still moan about it while the Turks killed Greeks in every single part of the Asia and Europe, anywhere they happened to meet, 353.000 is the official number of Pontian Greeks. And what Greeks only, go ask the Armenians, Syrians, and Kurds...why oh why, do you open your mouth so broadly, havent your mama taught you that "a fly might come in?"

"4. Greeks kicked out Cretean Turks"

Under the same Treaty that 500.000 Muslims from all over Greece incl. those of Crete you mention, in return for 1.5 million Greeks from Turkey...you are astonishing and a good laugh...is it double or triple the number?

"5. right-wing Greek nationalism is clearly evident in the Greek mindset"

After the fall of dictaroship, and ever since the formation of the Greek state, there has ever been no Greek nationalistic party in office. None, never in our history. Only one, the junta through a coup de tat..if it qualifies for nationalistic, which happens to be the same traitors that signed the agreement with Turkey of non-participation in case of of a potential invasion by Turkey. The Cypriots still havent forgiven us for that.

"6. Differences in opinion are regarded by Greeks as a war declaration."

Here you dont make any sense, you categorize a whole nation, when you are from Kiwi, and obviously totally ignorant of Greeks, but also as it seems you are totally ignorant of the Hellenic values, Democracy, Freedom, Eros. All of them analysed thoroughly primarily by Greek minds.

A good laugh...you are :laugh:

A total waste of time.

[oldjedi]

I think most of you have covered me. But I want to emphasize the comment of Voulgaroktonos. If you and your people USA-Kiwi want to examine the violence in Cyprus and open you eyes, you would see that the real enemies of the Greeks and the Turks in Cyprus were the Brittish. Both Greek and Turks fell because they rebelled against them. Karaolis, Dimitriou etc. I'm sure you have some turkish names as well. So, why does Turkey never mention anything about the Britts that misstreated both our nations? Why fight alone in this front while you keep your mouth shut (I'm talking about official actions).

;)
###
Both Greek and Turks fell because they rebelled against them. Karaolis, Dimitriou etc. I'm sure you have some turkish names as well.
###

Well Flipper ...here you are wrong . TC's DO NOT HAVE NAMES to equal Karaolis and the others , simply because they NEVER FOUGHT AGAINST THE BRITTS ... as simple as that . They were rather their allies against the fight for freedon that the GreekCypriots had ...

I think that the above explanations cover all your questions .

:read:

[oldjedi]

As Orphic Hymn has statyed in his posting on this forum, my attitudes to Greek Nationalism can be clearly read on Rachel Salomon's blog. I can't apologize for how I feel on this issue. I firmly believe that the Turkish Cypriot people deserve their state. Perhaps not as the Green Line is currently laid out, but given the animosities between Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot (neither of whom consider themselves CYPRIOT first), a unitary state is just simply doomed to fail. Short of ethnically cleansing (and I'm not going to go into the Akritas plan or the quotes of Makarios III or Sampson), two hostile peoples under one roof is not going to ensure peace. Formalizing the partition is to my mind, the only solution.

What really gets me is that thorough all of the news reports that I have read, Tassos Papadopoulos has never seriously reached out to the Turkish Cypriot people. He claims to represent all Cypriots, but apart from some small measures (property liens for some lost T/C properties in the South as a result of the events of 1974, finally allowing some T/C's to vote and get RoCy passports), he has not given out really any concrete proposals that would allay Turkish Cypriot fears. And personally, when I see a picture of the man, I don't see a Cypriot. I see a Greek. How can that inspire confidence?

Dean.

;)

Well , Dean ..

Things in Cyprus , have NOTHING to do with Nationalism either by the Turkish side , or by the Greeks side ..

The WHOLE thing , is about Turkey's INTERESTS in Med and OIL ..The rest excuses about Greeks and Papadopoulos and whoever and whatever , are pure b.s
Turkey , wants to CONTROL Cyprus , or at least a part of her , because geopoliticaly feels THREATENED IF any hostile nation takes hold of Cyprus .. In our days , this excuse , is completely b.s
On the other hand Turkey DOES NOT recognise that the islands have their own insular self , which means that they do not have the right to have coastal , or territorial waters .
All , in all Turkey , DOES NOT recognize the International Laws that applies to sea and covers all these issues ..
You saw what happened some days ago , when Cyprus , declared her wish to seek for oil in the area between Cyprus and Egypt ... It threatened Egypt , for Pete's sake ...

So , please , spare me at least about romantic ideas for "nationalisms" and "human rights" and "self-determinations" .... its ALL about MONEY and POWER , for just ONE country , HOSTILE to all her neighbors , TURKEY , who puppetiers the TC's for her OWN INTERESTS ...

:read:

[Spartan]

I would like to know whom do you consider a TC?

Is it only the original Turks who lived in Cyprus before the invasion?

Or is it the refugees who were transplanted from TURKEY to Cyprus?



The only real TC's are the ones who originated in Cyprus and their offspring. The others have no tradition or heritage or memories connecting them with the Island, so it would be very little disturbance for them to go back to Turkey.

Remember the Majority of the Turks who live in Cyprus ARE TURKISH citizens that were relocated by Turkey to Cyprus, so they are not Cypriots! They were brought in not by Turkish Cypriots but by TURKEY!

Why is it you dwell so much on Greek Nationalism when it is such an insignificant percentage of the Greek people who are that extreme? Do you truly believe that if the GC's were allowed to return home and the immigrant Turks from Turkey were returned to where they originated from that the Real TC's would be killed? I highly doubt it! Not in todays world with the whole world watching.

Now we have to look at whos to blame for the situation. We have 3 of them.

1)The British Government
2)The Junta/Colonels in Greece(Backed by the CIA)
3)The Turkish Government
4)The U.S with the Junta.

The first is the original instigator. The still play a role in the problems and but do nothing to improve it.

The second one NO LONGER EXIST so that cannot be an issue anymore. This was the pretext made by Turkey to invade Cyprus. The problem lays in that the Junta was overthrown and so the Pretext used by the Turks was and is no longer valid.

The third is where a large problem lays. The Turkish government completely controls the Northern part and not the Real TC's. a)They are the ones not working to reach a compromise. b)They are the ones who invaded the island. c)They are the ones that transported more than 200,000 Turkish citizens to the Occupied Northern 1/3. d)They are the ones that will not open their ports to Republic of Cyprus ships. e)They are the ones THREATENING the Egyptian and others for joining the ROC for oil exploration in the east Mediterranean in INTERNATIONAL WATERS!

So please tell us how "Greek Nationalism" is such an important role in your argument.


We would like to know what your plan for redrawing the borders would be! Do you include the immigrant Turks in the percentage when deciding how much of Cyprus they should control? In the eyes of the world it is completely illogical for an original 18% of a population to control 1/3 of the island of Cyrpus.

Finally, if you don't support unification of the Original Cypriots then how do you plan on compensating the vast majority of GC's for the loss of their properties? It is obvious that they will have to be compensated considering that the Northern Government is selling off the property still legally owned by the GC's. There have been several British people who have been sued and lost the cases in international courts by the GC's for illegaly purchasing their property in the occupied land. Those Brits have been ordered to pay restitution to the GC families. So there will obviously need to be a plan by the Turkish side for compensation.

[Flipper]

;)
###
Both Greek and Turks fell because they rebelled against them. Karaolis, Dimitriou etc. I'm sure you have some turkish names as well.
###

Well Flipper ...here you are wrong . TC's DO NOT HAVE NAMES to equal Karaolis and the others , simply because they NEVER FOUGHT AGAINST THE BRITTS ... as simple as that . They were rather their allies against the fight for freedon that the GreekCypriots had ...

I think that the above explanations cover all your questions .

:read:

I didn't say they have such big names. They didn't bother to have a common organized resistance. However, we can't deny the fact that turkish individuals wanted the britts out of cyprus.

[Spartan]

I'm just wondering what ever happened to USA-Kiwi? He came in here like a Knight on a white horse to save his Solomon, and then suddenly bids a hasty retreat and dissappears.

[edessa]

he can keep supporting the turkoi re - the kind, sophisticated race of people that they are...400 years of ottoman rule and they contributed absolutely nothing to the countries they invaded except baklava...top people

[Orphic_Hymn]

I'm just wondering what ever happened to USA-Kiwi? He came in here like a Knight on a white horse to save his Solomon, and then suddenly bids a hasty retreat and dissappears.


He's stated that he won't be setting foot in here again.

Not that we'll be missing him since his contribution was limited to trolling. But it just goes to prove that no internet troll no matter how loud mouth he may be, is able to argue against well documented facts..

[olvios]

Baklava isnt turkish its arabian or persian!!!!!! they didnt even give baklava!

[Spartan]

Check out the thread BAKLAVA. It has its origin and even the origin of Filo dough! By the way it is in no way Turkish!