Refuting FYROMIAN propaganda

[Ptolemy]

This will be a thread to refute false claims made by FYROMIAN propagandists.

..Herodotus, the Father of History, relates how the Macedonian king Alexander I (498-454 BC), a Philhellene (that is "a friend of the Greeks" and logically a non-Greek),...

The poor propagandists here ignore facts, like at that time the term Philhellene had the connotation of 'Philopatris' (he who loves his fatherland) or simply a patriot. Examples:

i) Xenophon called Agesilaus, the king of Sparta a 'Philhellene' , saying exactly "Again, if it is honourable in one who is a Greek to be a friend to the Greeks,". If we followed the absurb logic of FYROMIAN propagandists, Agesilaus must be considered also...a non-Greek. :laugh:

ii) Plato in his republic, is urging the leaders of Greece to be 'Philhellenes"

'And won't they be philhellenes, lovers of Greeks, and will they not regard all Greece as their own and not renounce their part in the holy places common to all Greeks ?”

' Greeks, however, we shall say, are still by nature the friends of Greeks when they act in this way'

iii) Isocrates called Jason of Pherae and Evagoras of Cyprus, 'Philhellenes'.

[Ptolemy]

GEORGIOS I - THE KING OF THE GREEKS
Salonika, October 31, 1912
"Taking into account the developed need for the urgent and temporary
organization of the administration of the territories in Macedonia,
occupied by the Greek army."

Sincce the decree was translated into English from Greek and the propagandists didnt show the original decree, the greek word used could be the verb "καταλαμβάνω" or the word "katalifthisses" (participle). "Katalamvano" (the verb) means "to take possession of".
In other words the King referred to the "territories that the Greek Army
took possession of after military action" from the Ottomans, i.e. liberated.


Furthermore, back then the term "occupied" was used because of the agreement between the allies (Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria) to define the new borders based on the territories that would be occupied by their armies at the end of the war. In other words as you understand , it had nothing to do with whether or not Macedonia is Greek but it was used because it was the criterion established by the allies.

For the discomfort of FYROMIAN propagandists the same verb "καταλαμβάνω" was used in series of effective military actions from greek army.

In this link showing the history of Greece, take a look how many times the verb "καταλαμβάνω" is used, Katerini, Kozani, Karpenisi, Grevena, Samothraki, Corfu, Samos, etc etc..

Should according to FYROMIAN propagandists consider ALL of these undisputed Greek places also not Greek???? :killme:

http://www.phys.uoa.gr/~nektar/history/historia_abstract.htm

[nsminc]

Yeah I've noticed how they twist and skew things to 1) create confusion
2) make things look to favour they're side.

Unbelievable logic.

[akritas]

The Slavs of the FYROM as usual are wrong.

Plato, Republic

.....And won't they be philhellenes, lovers of Greeks, and will they not regard all Greece as their own and not renounce their part in the holy places common to all Greeks ?” “Most certainly.” “Will they not then regard any difference with Greeks....
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Plat.+Rep.+5.470e


Xenophon

...Again, if it is honourable in one who is a Greek to be a friend to the Greeks, what other general has the world seen unwilling to take a city when he thought that it would be sacked, or who looked on victory in a war against Greeks as a disaster.....
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext lookup=Xen.+Ages.+7.1Isocrates (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext%20lookup=Xen.+Ages.+7.1Isocrates)

[Ptolemy]

To show you once more what kind of falsification FYROMian propagandists are doing, use your own logic to this part of your post.

Though Alexander spoke also Greek, loved Homer, and respected his tutor Aristotle, there is much evidence that HE HATED the Greeks of his day, just like his father Philip II. Philip had razed to the ground the Greek cities on Macedonian territory (including all 32 Greek cities in Chalcidice) and enslaved their inhabitants.

The question here is...how far stupid can someone be to claim that Alexander hated the Greeks when...

i) he has said himself many times he is greek by descend and admirer of Greek culture

ii) his speeches show the exact contrary of the claim (i wonder if the writer has ever read Alexander speech after chaeronia)

ii) he uses the language of his "hated" enemies as official language wherever he passes from.

iii) now Follow the syllogism.

As you know, people in history have conquered territories and have tried to influence them by spreading their cultures.

Mexicans for example, speak spanish, because they were conquered by Spaniards.
Other examples are:
Algerians...they speak French because they were influenced by the French.
Antilles------->Netherlands
India-------->Brittain
Brazil------->Portugal
and so on..

Here is my question:

Can the author give me ONE example in world history from people who have conquered a territory and have spread.... a foreign culture and/or language and even worst...a culture and language of people they hated?????

Or let me spell it out to you otherwise...Fact is Macedonians conquered lands in 3 continents as did Rome and even more England. The Greek language was used in ALL inscriptions and writings in the areas controlled by Macedonia, just like Latin and English were used in the lands conquered by the Romans and English. Why would supposedly 'non-Greeks' solely use Greek, and especially a language of people they "hated"???

What kind of conqueror goes and spread the so called "hated" culture and language globally?

and another proof of how much Alexander 'hated' Greeks.

Pseudo-Kallisthenes 1.15.1-4

And when things at Pella were back to normal, Alexander came by the statue of his father and spoke loud:

`Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Hellenic
Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians /and of the
Thebans and of the Athenenians/ and of all the Hellenic peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Hellenes we should not be slaves to barbarians

[WannabTrueMacedonian]

You guys are truly the ones that are brainwashed:killme:

Explain this,


[Book II - Battle of Issus] "Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian." Arrian.

[akritas]

You guys are truly the ones that are brainwashed:killme:

Explain this,


"Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian." Arrian.
Arrian speaks for the Greek mercenaries. Actually what were the ancient Macedonians show in other fragment that you avoid to said something

"He sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander, son of Philip, and the Greeks, save the Lacedaimonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia."
[B][Arr. I, 16, 7]

"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury; ... (and) I have been appointed leader of the Greeks ..."
[Arr., Anab. Alex. II, 14, 4]

[WannabTrueMacedonian]

"Such were the activities of the Romans and of Philip on land during that summer. At the beginning of the same summer, the fleet, commanded by the legate Lucius Apustius, left Corcyra, rounded Cape Malea, and joined King Attalus of Scyllaeum, in the region of Hermoine. Hitherto the resentment of the Athenian community against Philip had been kept in check by fear; but now, with the hope of assistance ready at hand, they gave free rein to their anger. There is never any lack at Athenian tongues ready and willing to stir up the passion of the common people; this kind of oratory is nurtured by the applause of the mob in all free communities; but this is especially true of Athens, where eloquence has the greatest influence. The popular assembly immediately carried a proposal that all statues of Philip and all portraits of him, with their inscriptions, and also those of his ancestors of either sex, should be removed and destroyed; that all feast-days, rites, and priesthoods instituted in honour of Philip or his ancestors should be deprived of sanctity; that even the sites of any memorials or inscriptions in his honour should be held accursed, and that it should not be lawful thereafter to decide to set up or dedicate on those sites any of those things which might lawfully be set up or dedicated on an undefiled site; that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies, their armies and navies, they should on every occasion HEAP CURSES and execrations on Philip, his family and his realm, his forces on land and sea, AND THE WHOLE RACE AND NAME OF THE MACEDONIANS." Livy

[Harper_Reston]

You guys are truly the ones that are brainwashed:killme:


Ironic! A brainwashed Bulgarian is calling others brainwashed. :killme:

In the year 200 B.C. the Macedonian King Philip V sent Macedonian ambassadors to the council of the Aetolian League, the 'Panaetolian Congress', to try to prevent the Romans from inducing the Aetolians to change their allegiance from Philip V to the Romans in their 2nd Macedonian War. At the council was also the Roman representative sent by the consul, and also a deputation from the Athenians who were the Romans' allies at this time. A hearing was first given to the Macedonians. The Macedonian delegates said:


'..........the same reasons which led them (the Aetolians) to make peace with Philip should lead them to keep that peace, once it had been established'.
'Or do you prefer' said one of the the delegates, '.......
................ . It is sheer madness to expect anything will remain in the same state if aliens, more widely separated from you by language, customs and laws than by distance over sea and land, obtain control over these parts.
Philip's rule ............. . Allow the foreign legions to settle down in these parts and take the yoke on your shoulders;
then it will be too late and all in vain to call on Philip as your ally, when you have the Roman for your lord. The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided or united by unimportant causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for reasons which change from day to day, but by nature - and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end .........'


Livy, XXXI.28 - XXXI.29
'Rome and the Mediterranean '

"...Annibas put himself under oath to Xenophanis (embassador of PhilipposII), in front of the all gods that Macedonia and the rest of Hellas have..."
Polybios VII 9, 1-3
Historian, 200-120BC

"...Agelaos from Nafpaktos was the first to address to the king (PhilipposV) and the present allies, wishing to stop the wars between Hellenes..."
Polybios V 103, 9
Historian, 200-120BC

Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your OWN RACE, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation....So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay neutral and do not side with the unjust."
Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Historian, 200-120BC

"This is a sworn treaty made between us, Hannibal the general, Mago, Myrkan, Barmokar and all other Carthaginian senators present with him, and all Carthaginians serving under him, on the one side, and Xenophanes the Athenian, son of Kleomachos, the envoy whom King Philip, son of Demetrios, sent to us on behalf of himself, and the Macedonians and allies, on the other side. `In the presence of ZEUS, HERA and APOLLO; in the presence of the Genius of Carthage; ...and in the presence of all the gods who possess Carthage; and in the presence of ALL THE GODS who possess Macedonia AND THE REST OF HELLAS;
and in the presence of all the gods of the army who preside over this oath. Thus said Hannibal the general and all the Carthaginian senators along with him and the Carthaginian soldiers: ...That King Philip and the Macedonians AND the REST OF THE HELLENES who are their allies shall
protect the Carthaginians,...King Philip and the Macedonians AND the OTHER HELLENES who are their allies shall be protected and guarded by
the Carthaginians..."
(Polybios 7.9.1-7; Treaty of alliance between king Philip V of Macedonia and Hannibal)

[akritas]

WannabTrueMacedonian
In order to answer you in the Livy fragment must show me your arguments from the two quotes of the Aryan regarding the connection between Macedonians and Greeks via Great Alexander speeches. :glare:

[admin]

Ironic! A brainwashed Bulgarian is calling others brainwashed. :killme:

In the year 200 B.C. the Macedonian King Philip V sent Macedonian ambassadors to the council of the Aetolian League, the 'Panaetolian Congress', to try to prevent the Romans from inducing the Aetolians to change their allegiance from Philip V to the Romans in their 2nd Macedonian War. At the council was also the Roman representative sent by the consul, and also a deputation from the Athenians who were the Romans' allies at this time. A hearing was first given to the Macedonians. The Macedonian delegates said:


'..........the same reasons which led them (the Aetolians) to make peace with Philip should lead them to keep that peace, once it had been established'.
'Or do you prefer' said one of the the delegates, '.......
................ . It is sheer madness to expect anything will remain in the same state if aliens, more widely separated from you by language, customs and laws than by distance over sea and land, obtain control over these parts.
Philip's rule ............. . Allow the foreign legions to settle down in these parts and take the yoke on your shoulders;
then it will be too late and all in vain to call on Philip as your ally, when you have the Roman for your lord. The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided or united by unimportant causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for reasons which change from day to day, but by nature - and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end .........'


Livy, XXXI.28 - XXXI.29
'Rome and the Mediterranean '

"...Annibas put himself under oath to Xenophanis (embassador of PhilipposII), in front of the all gods that Macedonia and the rest of Hellas have..."
Polybios VII 9, 1-3
Historian, 200-120BC

"...Agelaos from Nafpaktos was the first to address to the king (PhilipposV) and the present allies, wishing to stop the wars between Hellenes..."
Polybios V 103, 9
Historian, 200-120BC

Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your OWN RACE, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation....So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay neutral and do not side with the unjust."
Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Historian, 200-120BC

"This is a sworn treaty made between us, Hannibal the general, Mago, Myrkan, Barmokar and all other Carthaginian senators present with him, and all Carthaginians serving under him, on the one side, and Xenophanes the Athenian, son of Kleomachos, the envoy whom King Philip, son of Demetrios, sent to us on behalf of himself, and the Macedonians and allies, on the other side. `In the presence of ZEUS, HERA and APOLLO; in the presence of the Genius of Carthage; ...and in the presence of all the gods who possess Carthage; and in the presence of ALL THE GODS who possess Macedonia AND THE REST OF HELLAS;
and in the presence of all the gods of the army who preside over this oath. Thus said Hannibal the general and all the Carthaginian senators along with him and the Carthaginian soldiers: ...That King Philip and the Macedonians AND the REST OF THE HELLENES who are their allies shall
protect the Carthaginians,...King Philip and the Macedonians AND the OTHER HELLENES who are their allies shall be protected and guarded by
the Carthaginians..."
(Polybios 7.9.1-7; Treaty of alliance between king Philip V of Macedonia and Hannibal)


:pumped::thewave::thankyou:

[Spartan]

The FYROMs base one of their arguments on the case that the Ancient Macedonians spoke a different "Language".


From the foolowing site: historyofmacedonia.org


http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/greeklie6.html




You can also click here to go directly to AncientSculptureGallery.com's Hellenistic, Macedonian, Greek, and Roman sculptures. Ancient Sculpture Gallery has 9 different busts, statues, and plaques of Alexander the Great (including the famous Alexander Sarcophagus) and sculptures of Philip of Macedon, Demosthenes, Achilles, Hippocrates, Caesar, Apollo, Aphrodite, Heracles, Pan, Orpheus, Zeus, Artemis, Hermes, Dionysus, Athena, Perseus, Medusa, Eros, Centaur, Lapith, Nike, the Maenads, the Muses, the Graces, etc.



"There is no ancient Macedonian Language but a Greek dialect"
Greek claim 6



If the modern Greeks want to deny the ancient Macedonians their spoken language, then, they need to rewrite the history to suit their version.

[1] Quintus Curtius Rufus "The History of Alexander"

"Alexander the Great speaks in front of the Macedones of his army: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."

Philotas: "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."

Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language". [p.138]

This is Alexander himself talking about "our way of life" and "our language" "Macedonians are going to judge your case" There is no need for any explanation.

[2] Eugene Borza. "The lesson is clear: the use of the Greek language as a form of written expression does not by itself identify the ethnicity of a culture". ("In the Shadow of Olympus -The Emergence of Macedon", p. 94.)

"As the Macedonians settled the region following the expulsion of existing peoples, they probably introduced their own customs and language(s); there is no evidence that they adapted any existing language, even though they were now in contact with neighboring populations who spoke a variety of Greek and non-Greek tongues."

"Hammond's firm conclusion that the Macedonian spoke a distinctive dialect of Aeolic Greek is unconvincing to me, resting as it does on an interpretation of a bit of myth quoted by Hellanicus, who made Aeolus the father of the legendary progenitor Macedon". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.92.)

"The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from a Greek - do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect. And even had they changed at some point it is unlikely that they would have reverted to their original form". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.93.)

"As a question of method: why would an area three hundred miles north of Athens - not colonized by Athens - used an Attic dialect, unless it were imported? That is, the Attic dialect could hardly be native, and its use is likely part of the process of Hellenization. To put the question differently: if the native language of the Macedonians is Greek, what is its Macedonian dialect?"

"On the matter of language, and despite attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of linguist R.A.Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language it was".

[3] Earnst Badian "Stadies in the History of Art vol. 10: Macedonia and Greece In Late Classical and Early Hellenistic Times"

Regarding the Cleitus' episode, Ernst Badian writes: "He used the only language in which his guards could be addressed".. [Note: The guards could be addressed in Macedonian language.]

Episode #2. Eumenes of Cardia. In 321 B.C., Greek commander Ambiance, with cavalry and light arms only, faced the Macedonian noble, Neoptholemus, with the Macedonian phalanx. To avoid battle Xennias, a man whose speech was Macedonian, was sent by Eumenes to negotiate with the commander of the phalanx. Badian analyzes:

"Now, Xennias' name at once shows him to be a Macedonian. Since he was in Ambiance entourage he was presumably a Macedonian of superior status, who spoke both standard Greek and his native language. He was the man who could be trusted to transmit Ambiance' message. This clearly shows that the phalanx had to be addressed in Macedonian, if one wanted to be sure (as Ambiance certainly did) that they would understand. And almost equally interesting - he did not address them himself, as he and other commanders normally address soldiers who understood them, nor did he sent a Greek. The suggestion is surely that Macedonian was the language of the infantry and that Greek was a difficult, indeed a foreign language to them. We may thus take it as certain that, when Alexander used Macedonian in addressing his guards, that too was because it was their normal language, and because (like Ambiance) he had to be sure he would be understood".

[4] Ulrich Wilcken in his book 'Alexander the Great' on p.22 notes that "linguistic science has at its disposal a very limited quantity of Macedonian words" [Wilken mentions Macedonian and not Greek words]

[5] "The Tumult and the Shouting: Two Interpretations of the Cleitus Episode", (published by APA in The Ancient History Bulletin, Vol. 10, number 1, 1996) [I will not endeavor myself with "their" Hammond-Bosworth fight, for obvious reasons. What I will do, however, is lift certain references where these giants, specifically, deal/address the ancient Macedonian language in question.]

[6] p.20, line 23. "Alexander shouted out in Macedonian, and called the hypaspists in Macedonian".

[7] p.25, line 4. "In my view", writes Bosworth, " there is nothing at all surprising in the use of Macedonian. Alexander was calling his hypaspists, who were Macedonians, and he addressed them in their native language/dialect. In Hammond's view, however, the hypaspists would normally have been addressed in standard Greek. Macedonian proper he restricts to the people of the old kingdom, Lower Macedonian, while the tribes of the mountain districts of Pindus (Upper Macedonia) spoke a dialect of West Greek. The evidence for this hypothesis is decidedly tenuous."

[8] p.25 elaboration: Bosworth cont. "I deliberately refrain from adopting any position on the linguistic status of ancient Macedonians. It has little significance outside the nationalistic propaganda of the contemporary Balkan states, in which prejudice and dogma do duty for rational thought. What matters for the present argument is the fact, explicit in Curtius, that Macedonian was largely unintelligible to non-Macedonians. Macedonians might understand Greek, and some Greek (like Eumenes) with experience of Macedon might speak Macedonian. However, even Eumenes took care that a vital message was conveyed to the phalangites of Neoptholemus by a man fluent in Macedonian."

[9] p.30, line 28, we find the final statement by Bosworth: "He used Macedonian because the troops would instantly understand and (he expected) would react immediately. There is no need for more complicated explanation."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION

It should be no surprise that Alexander introduced the standard koine Greek language for his multi-ethnic empire. For that Greek language was already the only international language on which the people in antiquity communicated prior to the Macedonian conquest (just like English is international language today). The Macedonians were smart enough to keep this international Greek language for the Persians, Egyptians, Jews, and all the nations of his empire to communicate. Forcing all those people to learn now a new foreign Macedonian language (or any other one) would have only provoked an additional hatred and multi-ethnic resistance for the Macedonian occupation of Asia, Egypt, and Greece, which the Macedonians did not wanted to face. Unlike the Roman Empire, there was no single powerful centralized Macedonian Empire, but three main Macedonian kingdoms (Macedonia, Asia, Egypt) which were in conflict occasionally among each other, and the Macedonians needed such language standardization to help them maintain their power. That of course, does not mean that although the Macedonians, Persians, Egyptians, Jews, now communicated in Greek, that they all turned into Greeks, just like the African nations did not turn into French and English because of their usage of those two languages to communicate among themselves.

What is for certain is that Alexander spoke Macedonian with his own Macedonian troops and used Greek in addressing the Asians and Greeks. After all, the Macedonians were his kinsmen (precisely the way he calls them), not the Greeks. All these sources, both ancient and modern, specifically refer to Macedonian as a language and not as a dialect of Greek, and Alexander himself specifically calls the Macedonian - "our native language". During the trial of Philotas, Alexander himself clearly distinguishes his native Macedonian language from the Greek language which as a second language at the Macedonian court alongside with Macedonian, was used in diplomacy, a fact we found in the Philotas trial (Q. Curtius Rufus).

"What did others say about Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information", writes Borza, "from Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes), based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded the Greeks and the Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility."

The conclusion is thus complete – ancient Macedonian was a separate Indo-European language, different from ancient Greek, just like the Macedonians were a separate nation different from the ancient Greek nation, and the claim that Macedonian was a "dialect of Greek" and that "Macedonians were Greeks", a claim that today is supported only by the modern Greeks and only out of political reasons, is absurd and ridiculous.








Here is what I have compiled on the matter

Commoners Grave Stelae Found in the dirt of the Great Tumulus

In between 1976 and 1977 during the excavations at the Great Tumulus tomb of Phillip II the archaeologist uncovered in the fill dirt hundreds of pieces of Stelae(Grave Markers) that belonged to the "COMMON PEOPLE". These Stelae are believed to have been broken into pieces by the Gallic guards of Pyrrhus around 274-273 B.C After his overthrow of the Macedonian king Antigonus Gonata. Reported by Plutarch, it is said that "in their greed and ignorance, they destroyed and desecrated the graves", stealing anything of value. These Stelae pieces were believed by many to have been used later to add to the dirt that covered the Tomb.

Now on those Stelae pieces that belonged top the "COMMON PERSON" they found 75 names.

Here is a list the commoners names(all of which are GREEK), here are just 51 of them:

1)Adymos
2)Agathon
3)Alketas
4)Alkimos
5)Ammia
6)Antigonos
7)Arpalos
8)Artemidoros
9)Chrisopolis
10)Efthias
11)Efxenos
12)Apicratis
13)Hermon
14)Heracleides
15)Kallias
16)Kevvas
17)Kleagoras
18)Kleandros
19)Kleitos
20)Kleio
21)Kleovoulos
22)Kleonymos
23)Krino
24)Laandros
25)Lykophron
26)Lysanias
27)Lysias
28)Meliteia
29)Menandros
30)Mynno
31)Nikostratos
32)Paggasta
33)Paramonos
34)Paton
35)Pefkolaos
36)Phila
37)Philistos
38)Philleas
39)Philon
40)Philotas
41)Pierion
42)Proxenos
43)Soklis
44)Strophakides
45)Strophakos
46)Teleftias
47)Tellos
48)Theodoros
49)Thefkritos
50)Theophanis
51)Xenocratis


This was originally posted by Akritas:

LANGUAGE


The Macedonians were a Dorian tribe, according to the testimony of Herodotus (1, 56): "(The Dorian ethnos) ... dwelt in Pindos, where it was called Makdnon; from there ... it came to the Peloponnesus, where it took the name of Dorian". And elsewhere (VIII, 43): "these (that is, the Lacedaimonians, Corinthians, Sikyonians etc.), except the people of Hermione, were of the Dorian and Makednon ethnos, and had most recently come from Erineos and Pindos and Dryopis". A Dorian tribe, then, that expanded steadily to the east of Pindos and far beyond, conquering areas in which dwelt other tribes, both Greek and non-Greek.

For many centuries, Macedonia remained on the fringe of the Greek world. In the mountainous regions of Macedonia, at least, the way of life will have consisted predominantly of transhumant pasturage. Education will, at best, have been confined to aristocratic circles and those connected with them. We do not, therefore, expect to find any written texts of a private nature from the Archaic period. In the rest of the Greek world, writing is related to the structure and mechanisms of the city-state, and is used mainly for the recording of justice in the broadest sense of the word. Under a monarchical regime like that of Macedonia, however, and in a world of nomads, we would hardly expect to find public documents.

At about the end of the 6th century BC, the changed socio-economic circumstances deriving from permanent settlement and the intensification of economic and cultural relations with the rest of the Greek world led to the creation of the preconditions for the use of writing, mainly for the purposes of diplomatic relations. The local dialect a member, as far as we can judge, of the group known as the north-west Greek dialects, which included Phokian, the Lokrian dialects, etc., had no written tradition, whether literary or other. Consequently, the rise of education and culture was to the detriment of the Macedonian speech. Attic was selected as the language of education, and the local dialect was "smothered" by the written language, the koine, and was never, or hardly ever, written down, being restricted to oral communication between Macedonians. From as early as the time of Alexander the Great, moreover, Macedonian lost ground to the koine in this sphere too, if we are to believe the historical sources, and there is certainly no evidence that it was spoken in the centuries after Christ. Only its memory was perpetuated through the use of personal names until the 4th century AD

Although very little of the Macedonian tongue has survived, there is no doubt that it was a Greek dialect. This is clear from a whole series of indications and linguistic phenomena by which the koine of the region is "colored" which are not Attic but which can only have derived from a Greek dialect. For example: The vast majority of even the earliest names, whether dynastic names or not, are Greek, formed from Greek roots and according to Greek models: Hadista, Philista, Sostrata, Philotas, Perdikkas, Machatas and hundreds of others. In general, the remnants of the Macedonian dialect that have come down to us have a completely different character from Ionic. This circumstance is patent proof that there can be no question of the ancient Macedonians having been Hellenized, as has been asserted (Karst), for such Hyalinization could have been only by the Greek colonies on the Macedonian coast, in which the Ionian element was predominant (Beloch).

The fact that Roman and Byzantine lexicographers and grammarians cited examples from Macedonian in order to interpret particular features of the Homeric epics must mean that Macedonian - or rather, what survived of Macedonian at the period in question - was a very archaic dialect, and preserved features that had disappeared from the other Greek dialects; it would be absurd to suggest that these scholars, in their commentaries on the Homeric poems, might have compared them with a non-Greek language. The name given to the Macedonian cavalry - hetairoi tou basileos - "the King's Companions" - is also indicative: this occurs only in Homer, and was preserved in the historical period only amongst the Macedonians.

The anonymous compiler of the Etymologicum Magnum notes in the entry on Aphrodite, probably adopting a comment by the earlier grammarian Didymos: "V is akin to F. This is clear from the fact that the Macedonians call Philip "Vilip" and pronounce falakros "valakros" the Phrygians "Vrygians" and the winds (fysitas) "vyktas". Homer refers to "vyktas anemous" (blowing winds). Observations of this type abound. Male and female names occur in Macedonian ending in -as and -a, where in Attic we have -es and -e: Alketas, Amyntas, Hippotas, Glauka, Eurydika, Andromacha, and dozens more. A feature bequeathed by Macedonian to the koine and also to Modern Greek is the genitive of so-called first declension masculine nouns in -a: Kallia, Teleutia, Pausanea (the Attic ending was -ou). The long alpha is retained in the middle of words (as in all dialects other than Ionic-Attic dialects): Damostratos, Damon etc. and Iaos" rather than the "Ieos" of Ionic Attic, is used to form compounds, occurring as both the first and the second element. The koine of Macedonia, for all its conservatism and dialect coloring, follows a parallel path to the koine of other regions, though not always at the same moment in time. Whatever the case, all the changes that marked the Greek language in general and the north Greek dialects in particular, can be followed in the inscriptions of Macedonia








[B]Pella Katadesmos

"The Pella katadesmos is a katadesmos (a curse, or magic spell) inscribed on a lead scroll, dating to the 4th or 3rd century BC. It was found in Pella (at the time capital of Macedon) in 1986 and published in the Hellenic Dialectology Journal in 1993.

It is a magic spell or love charm written by a woman, possibly named Dagina, whose lover Dionysoph¨n (i.e. "Light of Dionysus") is apparently about to marry Thetima (i.e. "she who honors the gods"; the standard Attic form would be Theotim¨¥). She invokes "Makron and the demons" (parkattithemai makr¨ni kai [tois] daimosi, Attic would be para-kata-tithemai) to cause Dionysophon to marry her rather than Thetima, and never to marry another woman unless she herself recovers and unrolls the scroll.

Katadesmoi were spells written on non-perishable material, such as lead, stone or baked clay, and were secretly buried to ensure their physical integrity, which would then guarantee the permanence of their intended effects.

The language is a harsh but distinctly recognizable form of North-West or Doric Greek, and the low social status of its writer, as evidenced by her vocabulary and belief in magic, strongly hint that a unique form of Doric Greek was spoken by lay people in Pella at the time the tab was written (see below, Dating and Significance). Brixhe and Panayotou (1994:209) think a Macedonian origin of the text probable, but they point out that the population of Pella was not homogenously autochthonic, and they prefer to wait for a second find before making a definitive statement.




1. On the formal wedding of [Theti]ma and Dionysophon I write a curse, and of all other
2. wo[men], widows and virgins, but of Thetima in particular, and I entrust upon Makron and
3. [the] demons that only whenever I dig out and unroll and re-read this,
4. [then] may they wed Dionysophon, but not before; and may he never wed any woman but me;
5. and may [I] grow old with Dionysophon, and no one else. I [am] your supplicant:
6. Have mercy on [your dear one], dear demons, Dagina(?), for I am abandoned of all my dear ones.
7. But please keep this for my sake so that these events do not happen and wretched Thetima perishes miserably
8. and to me grant [ha]ppiness and bliss.
[edit]
Dating and significance
The tab has been dated by the original publishers to the "Mid-4th century BC or slightly earlier (letter forms, spelling)". This dating has been contested by Prof. Edmonds of Bryn Mawr College, who proposes a 3rd century BC date.

The former opinion is concurred by the Oxford Classical Dictionary, in which Professor Olivier Masson writes: "Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it {i.e. Macedonian} an Aeolic dialect (O.Hoffmann compared Thessalian) we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote). This view is supported by the recent discovery at Pella of a curse tablet (4th cent. BC) which may well be the first 'Macedonian' text attested (provisional publication by E.Voutyras; cf. the Bulletin Epigraphique in Rev. Et. Grec. 1994, no.413); the text includes an adverb "opoka" which is not Thessalian." (OCD, 1996, pp 905, 906).

Of the same opinion is James L. O'Neil's (of the University of Sydney) presentation at the 2005 Conference of the Australasian Society for Classical Studies, entitled "Doric Forms in Macedonian Inscriptions" (abstract): "A fourth©\century BC curse tablet from Pella shows word forms which are clearly Doric, but a different form of Doric from any of the west Greek dialects of areas adjoining Macedon. Three other, very brief, fourth century inscriptions are also indubitably Doric. These show that a Doric dialect was spoken in Macedon, as we would expect from the West Greek forms of Greek names found in Macedon. And yet later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants. The native Macedonian dialect had become unsuitable for written documents."





Now add the following to the above;


MACEDONIAN MONTHS



The Ancient Macedonian calendar year consisted of 12 synodic Lunar months (i.e. 354 days per year), which necessitated that 7 total embolimoi (intercalary) months be added into each 19-year Metonic cycle.

• Dios, moon of October
• Apellaios, moon of November, also a Spartan and Dorian month - Apellaiōn was a Tenian month
• Audnaios or Audēnaios, moon of December
• Peritios, moon of January
• Dystros, moon of February
• Xandikos or Xanthikos, moon of March
o (Xandikos Embolimos, intercalated 6 times over a 19-year cycle)
• Artemisios or Artamitios, moon of April, also a Spartan, Rhodian and Epidaurian month - Artemisiōn was an Ionic month
• Daisios, moon of May
• Panēmos or Panamos, moon of June, also an Epidaurian, Miletian, Samian and Corinthian month
• Lōios, moon of July - Ομολώιος, Homolōios, was an Aetolian, Boeotian and Thessalian month
• Gorpiaios, moon of August
• Hyperberetaios, moon of September - Hyperberetos was a Cretan month
o (Hyperberetaios Embolimos, intercalated once over a 19-year cycle)

How is it that the names of the 2nd and 7th months of the Macedonian calendar are the same as the Spartan one?

Sparta lies at the head of the Peloponnese, far away from Macedonia, in Southern Greece. Ancient Macedonians and Spartans had no contacts but nevertheless they both shared two month's names. How come?

The explanation: Both Macedonians and Spartans are (as stated by Herodotus) of Dorian stock. Not only were Macedonia and Sparta both kingdoms and warlike people but they had the same Dorian origin.

Moreover the 9th month is the same as the Corinthian and Epidaurian ones. The 12th month, the same as the Cretan. The 7th month is also Rhodian and Epidaurian. Corinthians, Cretans, Epidaurians and Rhodians are once again of Dorian stock.

The link? A common ancestry amongst these Dorian peoples.



From Hesychius "Greek Lexicon"


http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/CSAD/Hesychius/Hesychius.html



from the Collection of Greek words by Hesychius, it is said that the majority of the words of the Macedonian language are in fact Greek, but with a few non-greek words(Those being Thracian and Illyrian). Hopefully within the next several years we will have a new complete publishing of Hesychius' work. Follows is a letter from the guy working on the Hesychius dictionary. He is currently working on the "Sigma" and we hope that once he completes this we will once and for all put the language of the Ancient Macedonians to rest.





"The Completion of Kurt Latte's Hesychius for the Danish Academy
Hesychius of Alexandria lived in the fifth century A.D. and compiled a dictionary of unusual or difficult Greek words with explanations in Greek. Approximately 51,000 entries make it the richest surviving Greek lexicon compiled until the invention of printing. It is of great importance to Ancient Greek studies because it contains countless words and expressions from poetry, administration, medicine, and so on, that are otherwise unknown or insufficiently explained. In particular, numerous words from the Greek dialects are important, not only for Greek but also for Indo-European philology.

The Lexicon suffered substantial alterations, including abridgements and additions on its way from the author to the only surviving manuscript (fifteenth century). The production of an edition that gives all important information about the manuscript and the work of earlier scholars, as well as meeting modern requirements for the noting of parallels in other lexicographical works, is a slow and difficult task. Marcus Musurus published the first edition in 1514 (reprinted in 1520 and 1521 with modest revisions). There have since been many plans for an edition, but only four were started. Of the four editors, only one, M. Schmidt, lived long enough to finish the work himself. His edition (1858-68) is now completely out of date.

A new edition was one of the most urgent requirements in Greek studies already when the German scholar KURT LATTE began preliminary work in the 1920s for the Danish Academy's Commission for Corpus Lexicographorum Graecorum. The project was severely hampered by the events of 1933-45. Volumes 1-2 were published in 1953 and (posthumously) 1966.

In March 1987, the Commission entrusted me with producing a third volume (= pi-omega, 13844 entries) to bring the project to completion. I have worked on this since July 1988, supervised by the Commission and supported by four years' stipend from the Carlsberg Foundation (Carlsbergfondet), which has also financed the acquisition of computer equipment. The four stipends were divided into eight portions. The last portion covered a period ending in early April 1996.

In 1998 the backing of the Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Göttingen, combined with the generosity of the Fritz Thyssen Stiftung at Cologne, resulted in my being given a stipend for a four year period, and I received the first instalment in October 1998. I am thus once more able to concentrate on finishing the task. I am currently working on the letter sigma.
I am in regular contact with the following, who read and comment on instalments of my work: Prof. Klaus Alpers (the Danish Academy's supervisor of the project), Hamburg; Dr. Ian C. Cunningham, Minard (Argyll)/Edinburgh; Prof. Rudolf Kassel, Köln; Dr. Martin L. West, All Souls College, Oxford.


Peter Allan Hansen"




Next let's compile these five subjects:

1)Ancient Macedonian Commoners names.

2)The Pella Katadesmos(Curse).

3)The name of the Months.

4)Etymologicum Magnum

5)Hesychius's Greek Lexicon


We get the following LOGIC:


1)The Pella Katadesmos and several other inscriptions are shown by LINGUIST
to be of a Dorian form.

2)There are NO Dorians in the region of Macedonia!!

3)The Macedonians adopted ATTIC/IONIAN dialect/language.

4)The Ancient Macedonian Commoners had GREEK NAMES

5)The Macedonians had the same names as other Dorian tribes for certain months.

a)The 2nd month• Apellaios, moon of November, also a Spartan and Dorian month - Apellaiôn was a Tenian month

b)The 7th month• Artemisios or Artamitios, moon of April, also a Spartan, Rhodian and Epidaurian month - Artemisiôn was an Ionic month

c)The 9th month -• Daisios, moon of May is the same as the Corinthian and Epidaurian ones.

d)The 12th month-Gorpiaios, moon of August is the same as the Cretan.

e)The 7th month- Artemisios or Artamitios, moon of April is also Rhodian and Epidaurian.


6)Corinthians, Cretans, Epidaurians and Rhodians are once again of DORIAN STOCK.(ALSO the Spartans)

The link? A common ancestry amongst these DORIAN PEOPLES.


7)How is it that the names of the 2nd and 7th months of the Macedonian calendar are the same as the Spartan one?

8)Sparta lies at the head of the Peloponnese, far away from Macedonia, in Southern Greece. Ancient Macedonians and Spartans had no contacts but nevertheless they both shared two month's names. How come?

The explanation: Both Macedonians and Spartans are (as stated by Herodotus) of Dorian stock. Not only were Macedonia and Sparta both kingdoms and warlike people but they had the same Dorian origin.

9)The link? A common ancestry amongst these Dorian peoples.


If they shared a Dorian language(shown by the Pella Katadesmos) and they shared names of the MONTHS with Dorians(and they had no contact with Dorians) WHAT WOULD LOGIC DICTATE AS TO THE ORIGINS OF THE MACEDONIANS???

It would dictate that the Macedonians were of Dorian stock(as stated by Herodotus) and that their "Mother-Tongue" was Dorian with some mixing of Thracian and Illyrian words into it.

[Spartan]

The "Mother Language/ Mother Tongue" which is used by the FYROMs to show that the Ancient Macedonians spoke a different language has been used incorrectly.



Now let me discuss the so called Macedonian "MOTHER TONGUE".

This is only AN INVENTION of revisionist who look at the word "Glossa" in the ancient text and define it to mean "Language". When one looks in a DICTIONARY OF ANCIENT GREEK (I used the Langenscheidt's Pocket Dictionary of Classical Greek Classic Greek to English) for the word "Glossa/Ylwssa" you get the following:

Ylwssa- tongue(as in the mouth); mouth; speech; dialect.

This is even supported with the Ancient Greek Dictionary by "Athanasios Frangoulis, Dictionary of Ancient Greek, Expansion-Etymology"

Now let's use a modern Greek dictionary to look up the word "Glossa/Ylwssa" (I used The Oxford Greek Dictionary, Greek-English & English Greek) you will see the following definition:

ylwssa-tongue, language.


So if you have been paying attention you will see that the word
"Language" was not used as a definition of the word "Ylwssa" in ancient Greece from the Classical to the Hellenistic periods(Which the 2nd Ancient Greek Dictionary cover.)

Now let's feed the original meanings of the word "Ylwssa" into all those modern "Historians" who claim that the ancient Historians were saying the Macedonians were speaking another language!


I will place the proper meaning in with BOLD LETTERS.








"There is no ancient Macedonian Language but a Greek dialect"
Greek claim 6."



If the modern Greeks want to deny the ancient Macedonians their spoken language, then, they need to rewrite the history to suit their version.

[1] Quintus Curtius Rufus "The History of Alexander"

"Alexander the Great speaks in front of the Macedones of his army: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native (speech, dialect)language before them."

Philotas: "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the (speech, dialect) language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."

Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native
(speech, dialect) language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language". [p.138]

This is Alexander himself talking about "our way of life" and "our
(speech, dialect) language" "Macedonians are going to judge your case" There is no need for any explanation.

[2] Eugene Borza. "The lesson is clear: the use of the Greek language as a form of written expression does not by itself identify the ethnicity of a culture". ("In the Shadow of Olympus -The Emergence of Macedon", p. 94.)

"As the Macedonians settled the region following the expulsion of existing peoples, they probably introduced their own customs and language(s); there is no evidence that they adapted any existing language, even though they were now in contact with neighboring populations who spoke a variety of Greek and non-Greek tongues."

Let's pay close attention to what Borza is stating above!

"there is no evidence that they adapted any existing language, even though they were now in contact with neighboring populations who spoke a variety of Greek and non-Greek tongues."

To me this means that they adopted no other languages including Greek. This also means since they didn't adopt ANY language and all their inscriptions, names, etc are all in Greek, then that must mean that they ALREADY spoke Greek!!

"Hammond's firm conclusion that the Macedonian spoke a distinctive dialect(notice Hammond even uses the term DIALECT) of Aeolic Greek is unconvincing to me, resting as it does on an interpretation of a bit of myth quoted by Hellanicus, who made Aeolus the father of the legendary progenitor Macedon". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.92.)

"The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from a Greek - do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect. And even had they changed at some point it is unlikely that they would have reverted to their original form". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.93.)

"As a question of method: why would an area three hundred miles north of Athens - not colonized by Athens - used an Attic dialect, unless it were imported? That is, the Attic dialect could hardly be native, and its use is likely part of the process of Hellenization. To put the question differently: if the native language of the Macedonians is Greek, what is its Macedonian dialect?"

"On the matter of language, and despite attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of linguist R.A.Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language it was".

For the above high lighted phrase refer to Hesychius Lexicon, Pella Katadesmos, Names of the Months, Etc.

[3] Earnst Badian "Stadies in the History of Art vol. 10: Macedonia and Greece In Late Classical and Early Hellenistic Times"

Regarding the Cleitus' episode, Ernst Badian writes: "He used the only (speech, dialect) language in which his guards could be addressed".. [Note: The guards could be addressed in Macedonian (speech, dialect) language.]

Episode #2. Eumenes of Cardia. In 321 B.C., Greek commander Ambiance, with cavalry and light arms only, faced the Macedonian noble, Neoptholemus, with the Macedonian phalanx. To avoid battle Xennias, a man whose speech was Macedonian, was sent by Eumenes to negotiate with the commander of the phalanx. Badian analyzes:

Pay attention here the Eumenes uses the word SPEECH. This supports my claims.

"Now, Xennias' name at once shows him to be a Macedonian. Since he was in Ambiance entourage he was presumably a Macedonian of superior status, who spoke both standard Greek(My words, ATTIC) and his native
(speech, dialect) language. He was the man who could be trusted to transmit Ambiance' message. This clearly shows that the phalanx had to be addressed in Macedonian, if one wanted to be sure (as Ambiance certainly did) that they would understand. And almost equally interesting - he did not address them himself, as he and other commanders normally address soldiers who understood them, nor did he sent a Greek. The suggestion is surely that Macedonian was the (speech, dialect) language of the infantry and that Greek (My words, ATTIC) was a difficult, indeed a foreign (speech, dialect) language to them. We may thus take it as certain that, when Alexander used Macedonian in addressing his guards, that too was because it was their normal (speech, dialect) language, and because (like Ambiance) he had to be sure he would be understood".

[4] Ulrich Wilcken in his book 'Alexander the Great' on p.22 notes that "linguistic science has at its disposal a very limited quantity of Macedonian words" [Wilken mentions Macedonian and not Greek words]

Once again refer to Pella Katadesmos, Names of the Months, and Commoners names for the above!

[5] "The Tumult and the Shouting: Two Interpretations of the Cleitus Episode", (published by APA in The Ancient History Bulletin, Vol. 10, number 1, 1996)

[6] p.20, line 23. "Alexander shouted out in Macedonian, and called the hypaspists in Macedonian (speech, dialect)".

[7] p.25, line 4. "In my view", writes Bosworth, " there is nothing at all surprising in the use of Macedonian (speech, dialect). Alexander was calling his hypaspists, who were Macedonians, and he addressed them in their native language/dialect.Now that Language/Dialect are Bosworths own words! Which once again supports my argument!! In Hammond's view, however, the hypaspists would normally have been addressed in standard GreekAttic(My word). Macedonian proper (speech, dialect) he restricts to the people of the old kingdom, Lower Macedonian, while the tribes of the mountain districts of Pindus (Upper Macedonia) spoke a dialect of West Greek. (This to is Bosworths own words) The evidence for this hypothesis is decidedly tenuous."

[8] p.25 elaboration: Bosworth cont. "I deliberately refrain from adopting any position on the linguistic status of ancient Macedonians. It has little significance outside the nationalistic propaganda of the contemporary Balkan states, in which prejudice and dogma do duty for rational thought. What matters for the present argument is the fact, explicit in Curtius, that Macedonian was largely unintelligible to non-Macedonians. Macedonians might understand GreekAttic or other[/B[B]](My Words), and some Greek (like Eumenes) with experience of Macedon might speak Macedonian (speech, dialect). However, even Eumenes took care that a vital message was conveyed to the phalangites of Neoptholemus by a man fluent in Macedonian (speech, dialect)."

[9] p.30, line 28, we find the final statement by Bosworth: "He used Macedonian (speech, dialect). because the troops would instantly understand and (he expected) would react immediately. There is no need for more complicated explanation."


So my argument holds up upon scrutinization. Even the Historians used by the FYROM site use the terms "[I]Speech and Dialect/Language"
It also makes perfect sense using all supporting Archaeological, Linguistical and Commoners names evidence provided.

:worshippy :clapping: :thumbs: :boohoo: :hotpants: :blast: :thankyou: :thankyou:

[HellenicPride]

You guys are truly the ones that are brainwashed:killme:

Explain this,


[Book II - Battle of Issus] "Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian." Arrian.

Its obvious you need to be taught history lessons. That communist propaganda dont work.

Fallacy #1The inhabitants of The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (The FYROM) are ethnic Macedonians, direct descendants of, or related to the ancient Macedonians.

Fact #1
The inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians. They have nothing in common with the ancient Macedonians. Here are some testimonies from The FYROM’s officials:

a. The former President of The FYROM, Kiro Gligorov said: “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35).

b. Also, Mr Gligorov declared: "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia… Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).

c. On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great … Greece is Macedonia’s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.”

d. On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented, “There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country."

e. Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they "belong to the same Slav people.”


Fallacy #2

The Macedonian Greeks are of the same ethnic group as the “Macedonians” of The FYROM.

Fact #2

The Macedonian Greeks are NOT of the same ethnic group as the Macedonian Slavs of The FYROM. The Macedonian Greeks are just that, Greeks who live in or originate from the geographic area of Macedonia.
They are the only people, that by inheritance, can be called Macedonians.

Fallacy #3
Ancient Macedonians were a tribe similar to the Greeks, but not Greek themselves.

Fact #3
Ancient Macedonians were one of more than the 230 Hellenic tribes, sub-tribes, and families of the Hellenic Nation that spoke more than 200 dialects. For more information see Herodotus, Thucydides, Titus Livius, Strabo, Nevi'im, Ketuvim, Apocrypha (Macabees I, 1-2). It was not until 1945 that their Hellenism has been challenged by the Slavs for expansionistic reasons.

Fallacy #4

Ancient Greece was a country, a legal entity, as we understand it today.

Fact #4
No. Hellas (Greece) was first recognized as a nation state or legal entity as we understand it today in 1830. From the beginning until that time, the term Hellas was only a geographic term or an administrative area whose borders were changing depending on the needs of the Roman, Byzantine, or Ottoman Empires.

[HellenicPride]

Fallacy #5
Ancient Macedonia was a nation state.

Fact #5
Before Phillip II, Macedonia was divided into small typical city-states having adopted the same concept of internal civic structure as the southern Greek city-states. Each Macedonian city-state or area had its own main city and government. Philip II united the Macedonian city-states by instituting and establishing a Homeric style of a Kingdom, maintaining the infrastructure of the smaller city-states with the various kings paying tribute to the king of all Macedonia. We know this from the fact that at one time the king of Lyncestis (present day Bitola - Florina) was Alexander. The point that has to be made clear is that a man’s first loyalty was to his city, not to the King of Macedonia (Hammond, The Macedonian State, p. 9).

Fallacy #6
Over the years the ancient Macedonians disappeared.

Fact #6
The ancient Macedonians, under the influence of the new common language, the Koine, as developed over the years, were amalgamated with the rest of the Hellenes, or Greeks.

Fallacy #7

If the ancient Macedonians were Greeks, why then was Alexander I, the king of Macedonia, named Philhellene (lover of Greece)? This title is bestowed only to foreigners.
Fact #7
The king of Macedonia, Alexander I, was named Philhellene by the Theban poet Pindaros for the same reason Jason of Pherrai and Euagoras of Cyprus were called Philhellenes (Isocrates 107A, 199A). The title Philhellene in ancient times meant Philopatris (lover of the homeland) or simply put “a patriot” (Plato, Politics, 470E; Xenophon, Agesilaus, 7, 4), which is why Alexander the Great did not touch the traditional house of Pindaros when he ordered his soldiers to burn Thebes.

Fallacy #8

The ancient Greeks had a Greek or Hellenic national conscience and the Macedonians, by destroying Greek cities, proved that they were not Greeks.

Fact #8
Greece is an area which lacking geographic continuity fostered alienation of individual tribes not only in the general sense, but also in a narrower sense. That explains why the ancient Greeks did not have a common national conscience which is why they were warring against each other. The Macedonians destroyed or burned cities belonging to other Greek City States for the same reason the Athenians, the Thebans, and the Spartans battled one another.

They knew that somehow they were related, but local conscience was much stronger than a Pan- Hellenic one. Ancient Greeks, of the Hellenic mainland, were united before an enemy attack that could endanger the common freedom and welfare. This fact was displayed anytime the Persians attacked the Hellenic lands. Greeks from Ionia and Aeolia (present day Aegean shores of Turkey), however, were mostly Persian allies in opposition to the Mainland Greeks.

It was common practice for various Hellenic states to form political/military alliances with each other and against each other, but they did not develop ethnic partnerships. There are plenty of such alliances in the ancient Hellenic world.

A few centuries went by until the Greeks began developing a national conscience. The Greeks definitely achieved the completion of a national conscience by the time Justinian was crowned the Emperor of Byzantium. Very few ancient Greeks, such as Pericles, Demosthenes and Phillip II of Macedonia had the vision of a united country, but each one wanted to see his own state as the leading force of such a union. Pericles dreamed of it, Demosthenes advocated it, but Phillip II materialized it. Also, the Macedonians had common religious practices and customs as the Spartans.

[HellenicPride]

Fallacy #9
The ancient Macedonians were one of the Illyrian tribes.

Fact #9
Although there is a lot of evidence (mostly indirect) regarding the language of the ancient Macedonians, there is one piece of evidence offered by Polybius in book XXVIII, paragraphs 8 and 9, where it states that the Macedonians were using translators when they were communicating with the Illyrians. This means the Macedonians and the Illyrians did not speak the same language. For instance, Perseus, the Macedonian king, sent Adaeus of Berroia (who spoke only Greek) and Pleuratus the Illyrian, as a translator (because he spoke the Illyrian language) on a mission to the Illyrian king Genthius (169 BC). Pleuratus was an exile living in Perseus' court. Moreover there is evidence that the Illyrians and the Macedonians were vicious enemies.

Fallacy #10

Many of the Greeks living in Greek Macedonia are actually refugees that came to Macedonia during the First World War and especially during the 1920's and 1930' from Turkey, the Middle East, Georgia, Russia, Ukraine and Bulgaria.

Fact #10
It is very true that a good number of the Greeks living in Greek Macedonia are refugees from various Middle Eastern countries. However, it is also true that these Greeks are descendants of those ancient Greeks, including ancient Macedonians, who either colonized various areas of what presently are Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Bulgaria, Turkey, the Middle East, or followed the greatest General of all times, Alexander the Great. These Greeks simply came home after at least two and one half millennia of spreading the Greek spirit, culture, language and civilization. Mother Greece made her lands available to her returning and thought to be lost offspring. It was the least she could do. After all they had every right to come home, just as the Jews did and they are still going home to Israel.

Fallacy #11

Sts. Cyril and Methodius were Slavs and that is the rationale why they are called “the Apostles of the Slavs” and also “the Slav Apostles.”

Fact#11
The term “Slav Apostles” or the “Apostles of the Slavs” does not mean that the two brothers were Slavs. St. Thomas is called “the Indian Apostle,” but we all know that he was not an Indian. He simply taught Christianity to the Indians. The Greek brothers from Thessaloniki taught Christianity to the Slavs, they gave them the alphabet (presently called Cyrillic), and they translated the sacred and liturgical books of Christianity into the Old Church Slavonic, otherwise known as Old Bulgarian.

Pope John Paul II in his Encyclical Epistles of December 31, 1980, and June 2, 1985, while he was commemorating the two brothers, affirmed the fact that both were Greeks from Thessaloniki.

Professors Ivan Lazaroff, Plamen Pavloff, Ivan Tyutyundzijeff and Milko Palangurski of the Faculty of History of Sts. Cyril and Methodius University in Veliko Tŭrnovo, Bulgaria in their book, Kratka istoriya na bŭlgarskiya narod (Short History of the Bulgarian Nation, pp 36-38), state very explicitly that the two brothers were Greeks from Thessaloniki. The late Oscar Halecki, Professor of Eastern European History, in his book Borderlands of Western Civilization, A History of East Central Europe (chapter Moravian State and the Apostles of the Slavs) agrees with the authors of Kratka istoriya na bŭlgarskiya narod.

Fallacy #12
Tthat Alexander the Great is depicted wearing above his head imprinted on some old coins. he present day Emblem of the FYROM is the lion. This lion is the same lion

Fact #12
There is nothing in common between The FYROM’s lion and the lion's skin that Alexander the Great wears in some coins. The FYROM’s lion is actually the Bulgarian lion, which is depicted in the Bulgarian Coat of Arms.

Alexander’s lion is the lion's skin that Heracles killed in Nemea, which is one of the 12 deeds executed by the mythological hero. The lion skin that Alexander the Great wears signifies his ancestral relationship to Heracles (Hercules). There is an unpublished inscription from Xanthos dating from the third century BC (cf. Robert, Amyzon, 1,162, n 31) where the Ptolemies refer to their Ancestors as “Herakleidas Argeadas” (Errington, A History of Macedonia, p 265, n 6).

Fallacy #13

In other coins we see Alexander the Great having two horns on his head and this signifies that he was a very bad man.

Fact #13
In the Middle Eastern tradition a horned man meant that he was powerful. Darius in his letters to Alexander the Great called him, Zul-Al-Kurnain or Double Horned one. Thus the horns on Alexander’s head means that he was recognized as most powerful.