Origin of the Ancient Greeks [Archive]

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akritas

02-09-2007, 02:33 AM

There are three theories as about the origin of the ancient Greeks

a) Indo-European theory origin of Greeks and their locomotion by the north to the Hellenic peninsula , that constitutes fruit of Comparative Linguistics.

b) Afrocentrism theory, at which ancient Hellas (and accordingly her culture) it was the result “Egyptian' and “Phoinician” settlement at the 2nd millennium B.C.. The bigger supporter of this theory today is the Martin Bernal.

g) Autochthony theory, which supported himself the ancient Greeks and are verified by the modern Anthropology. Mainer representatives of this theory are the Colin Renfrew in the historical science and the Aris Poulianos in the Anthropology.

Ehetlaios

02-09-2007, 08:47 AM

Afrocentrism is definitely out of the question.

As to the other theories, personally I haven't decided yet, but I'll go with us being autochthonus.

Euklid

02-09-2007, 02:38 PM

In my opinion the Ancient Greeks were a fusion of "Indo-Europeans", autochonous populations, with afrocentric influences.

I think that all three, hold a piece of the pie, and in my mind the largest piece is taken by the autocthony theory.

I find it impossible for only one of them to be a 100% accurate.

After all we are talking about the piece of land in between 3 continents.

3 the continents...3 the ingredients in the recipe.

Reaper

02-09-2007, 04:02 PM

Think we were from the steppes.

Flipper

02-09-2007, 04:39 PM

Nice one!
I have studying a lot lately. I choosed other.

First of all there are no native europeans, except if we want to talk about Neadartals. :)

I believe like many nowadays that the pre-indoeuropean population the pelasgoi were proto-greek speaking people of an ealier migration or anatolians.

But I will focus on what I have read lately. The Hellenic, Phrygian, Luwian, Armenian languages belong to the same group of languages. That means that way back in time those people lived as one group somewhere and had no ethnic hypostasis as we treat it nowadays.

The Luvians were unfortunately extinct and they didn't leave traces on their prehistory. The linguistic aspect these days, support the Anatolian theory of the Greek migration. That means that the Greeks didn't follow the same route as the other indoeuropeans but invaded the balcans through Minor Asia.

According to the anatolian theory there were more than one migrations. There is no doubt about the first european greek settlement which was Epirus. There is a debate though on the year. Some talk about 7000BC while others say 3200BC. I tend to believe 3200BC sounds a bit more sensible.

The question is: How do they know when there is no lingustic evidence? The answer is imports and agriculture. The epirus findings differ a lot from the neighbouring civilizations (Vucedols and later Illyrians). The agriculture provide as well valuable data. For example in Western Greece and Macedonia, Safran was imported which is indeed an anatolian plant found mainly in Iran. The pottery imported is also very different to the neighbouring nations and have again similarities with the anatolian ones.

As for the language, we have elements like Δ, Θ etc that do not appear in such a frequency on other indoeuropean languages. The similarities of the early greek language with the other sister languages are also very obvious (Phrygian, Armenian). The -σσ words are Pelasgian which in their turn have a connection to the Tyrhenian, Phrygian and Luvian languages. Anatolian sounds again. As for today, the greek language is the only one that has whole unchanged pelasgian words: Gynaika, Andras, Dynamis, Alifi, Asti, deytera, thalassa, omo/omio, drepani, arpa, Elaio, Alas, eleftheria, opsi, ortho, plithra, labyrinthos just to name a few.

In any case, I believe that what created what the Greeks called themselves back in the days was a mixture of closely related indoeuropeans. However, the semitic element cannot be ignored since the island populations and minor asia became a part of the Greek nations body.

Euklid

02-09-2007, 05:32 PM

Very nice info, you got there Flipper, i didnt know, that all these words were full complete Pelasgian ones.

It is astonishing.

Tsontos

02-09-2007, 05:50 PM

I beleive Corinthos and Minthos are also Pelasgian words?

By the way I beleive in the Nordcist theory. Or maybe it was the Iranic theory...i cant remember :p

Spartan

02-09-2007, 07:15 PM

I believe that we are a mixture of the Autochthonous populations with little influence from "the Indoeuropeans". This is supported by Herodotus and his discussion on the ORIGINS of the Athenians.(I will look up the page and chapter for this and post it.)

I don't believe anything from Egypt influenced the Ancient Greeks. The only thing that may have been influenced in Archaic Greece are the sculptures known as Kouroi, even here there is a gap of 1900 years from the time of the Egyptian Kouroi to the Greek Kouroi. So it is quite possible that the Archaic Greek sculptures evolved on their own. Just like animal species can evolve on there own to look identical but have absolutely no connection genetically. Yes, there was trade between Greece and Egypt but the philosophical, cultural and architectural differences are too vast to make the claim that the Egyptians influenced the Greeks.

Now I can support an influence from the Phoenicians since there are known Phoenician colonies in Greece. But the Phoenicians ARE NOT EGYPTIANS and are not Black!

Tsontos

02-09-2007, 07:50 PM

Guys I really dont know much about these subjects. One question though: how can we only have a little influence from IndoEuropeans when our language is Indo-European?

Flipper

02-09-2007, 08:24 PM

I beleive Corinthos and Minthos are also Pelasgian words?

Yeah they are. All νθ words are.

Spartan

02-09-2007, 10:15 PM

Guys I really dont know much about these subjects. One question though: how can we only have a little influence from IndoEuropeans when our language is Indo-European?

Indoeuropean is just the most accepted THEORY based primarily on language.

Next, it is possible that there were small groups of Indoeuropeans that came down into the peninsula and became the rulers thus spreading their language.
But that does not mean that the majority of the language or culture is Indoeuropean in origin.

Spartan

02-13-2007, 12:21 AM

From Herodotus The Histories, Book 8, page 463;

"When what is now called Greece was occupied by the Pelasgians, the Athenians, a Pelasgian people, were called Cranai. In the reign of Cecrops they acquired the name of Cecropidae. At the succession of Erecthius they changed their name to Athenians; and when Ion, the son of Xuthus, became general of their armies, they took from him the title of Ionians."

Book 1, pg.22

"...Granted, then, that these are a fair sample of the Pelasgian race, one may conclude that the Athenians, being themselves Pelasgian, changed their language when they were absorbed into the Greek family of nations. In Creston and Placia the same language is spoken, but it is not the language of the surrounding country: which indicates that these people did not change their language when they changed their home. I believe myself that the Greek peoples have always spoken the same language, but they were weak after their seperation from the Pelasgians of whom they were a branch, and have since grown from the small beginnings to their present numbers by the addition of various foreign elements, amongst which were the Pelasgians themselves. I do not think the Pelasgians, a non-Greek people, ever became very numerous or powerful."

From what I can tell we are both Pelasgian(Autochthonous) and other elements.(Graeci, Hellenes, Dorians. Maybe even some Illyrian and Thracian?) It seems though that he believed the Greek peoples early on broke away from the Pelasgians, became numerous and then return to where they had originated. He does of course differentiate the later remnance of the Pelasgians who remained that way for 1000's of years as non-Greek due to their time of seperation. Anyways we all know later that the Pelasgians were completely assimilated into the Greek Ethnos so they once again became Greek.

Flipper

02-13-2007, 12:36 AM

Herodotus exact words are "The Hellenes never changed their speech. It was a branch of Pelasgian that separated from the main body". As for the Thracians I believe Phrygians played some role, that is why there is a similarity in the language.

Orphic_Hymn

02-13-2007, 02:16 AM

Herodotus' text (1.56-58) is quite interesting and I have yet to find an analysis that would cover the questions that arise from the contradictions found in his text.

While he does suggest that the Pelasgians were a 'foreign/barbarian' people (Πελασγικὸν ἔθνος, ἐὸν βάρβαρον), he contradicts his statement by mentioning that the Hellenes had separated from them (ἀποσχισθὲν μέντοι ἀπὸ τοῦ Πελασγικοῦ) literally making them brethen and thus not foreign to one-another.

Another contradiction is that while he mentions this separation, and supports that the Hellenes had always spoken the same language (τὸ δὲ Ἑλληνικὸν γλώσσῃ μὲν ἐπείτε ἐγένετο αἰεί) which was alien to the allegedly 'barbaric' Pelasgian language. In 2.52 when claiming that the Hellenes received the names of their Gods from the Pelasgians he suggests that they (Pelasgians) called them 'θεοὺς' because they (ὅτι κόσμῳ θέντες τὰ πάντα πρήγματα καὶ πάσας νομὰς εἶχον) and by doing so gives a purely Hellenic (non-IE) etymology to the word 'Gods' since it derives from "τίθημι" (place, put) and by doing so clearly indicating that Hellenic and Pelasgian are closely related.

His perception of what is and what isn't proper conduct in the suggested 'Hellenization' is also notable.
While he does suggest that the Hellenes after having separated from their own brethen (Pelasgians), managed to grow by assimilating various 'barbaric' tribes, the majority of which were Pelasgians. He also notes that the Atheneans were one of these assimilated people which became Hellenes by adopting the Hellenic language.

The acceptance of this process is in clear contradiction to his reaction seen in 1.146, in which he critisizes/mocks the Atheneans as the alleged "noblest of the Ionians" (νομίζοντες γενναιότατοι εἶναι Ἰώνων) for marrying Carian women when they settled on the shores of Ionia. Why critisize/mock the Atheneans, the very same people which he originally considered alien to the Hellenes and had allegedly underwent the very same process of Hellenization ?

Aristotelian

02-13-2007, 03:35 AM

We are also forgeting a very important fact, or so Plato thinks.

If any of you have read Platos Republic in the dialogues Timaeus you would have read that In Plato's account, Atlantis, lying "beyond the pillars of Hercules", was a naval power which conquered many parts of western Europe and Africa 9000 years before Plato's own time--approximately 9400 BC. Critias who passed on the story to Plato claims that his accounts of ancient Athens and Atlantis stem from a visit to Egypt by the Athenian lawgiver Solon in the 6th century BC.
In Egypt, Solon met a priest of Sais, who told him that Greeks where but meare children....Solon was confused by the Egyptians statement and asked what he ment, he explained to him then that the Greeks who live now( at that point of time 500 - 360 B.C) were only descendents of previous Greeks who had more power then they ever did, and that Athens held most knowledge of these Atlantians(GREEKS).
Basicaly the point was that Greeks always destroyed themselves at some point in time because of corruption pr civil wars but rose again like children only containing fragments of the previous achievements in there memories...kinda freaky and true when you think about it.

Linear A tablet will always contain the truth of our origins, and still its only guesses. But im a firm believer of the Atlantian concept. Im far from Indo Euro as i still dont get where did Indo Euro then come from? Who were there ancestors?

Orphic_Hymn

02-13-2007, 04:40 AM

According to the anatolian theory there were more than one migrations. There is no doubt about the first european greek settlement which was Epirus. There is a debate though on the year. Some talk about 7000BC while others say 3200BC. I tend to believe 3200BC sounds a bit more sensible.

Not sure which settlement you're talking about but we definitely can link customs seen in Sesklo and Dimini to those seen in later Mycenean Hellas. For example there are finds of seals which depict the 'Maiandros', the unique for its age fortifications of Sesklo and Dimini, the pottery styles that suggest continuety and evolution instead of importation or even the older find in Frachthi which indicates that the 'ovolos' custom of placing a coin (then of course a simple rock since coins weren't invented) in the mouth of the deceased which was continued well into the Hellenistic era.

Actually from what I've came across the alterations in cultural aspects haven't been considered as so drastic to support the invaders/new settlers theory, but rather indicate evolution.
The answer is imports and agriculture.

The Anatolian theory was put on the map after C.Renfrew's "Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of the Indo-European Origins" published in 1987.
But since then its interesting that his later work hasn't been circulated nor advertised as much.
In his 1998 " The Tarim Basin, Tocharian, and Indo-European Origins: A View from the West", he agrees with the views of I.Diakonov, K.Wiik, R.Gray, Q.Atkinson, K.Rexova, D.Frynta and J.Zrzavy that the home of the IE (if they ever did exist) was the Balkan region.

We should also note that he, E.S. Higgs, Peter Bogucki, M. R. Jarman, J.M Hansen..etc seem to agree to a simultanious domestication of animals and development of farming with the East, rather to the imported theory..

If we were to take it a bit further, we could also note "Prehistoric Sitagroi: Excavations in Northeast Greece" by Ernestine S. Elster, Colin Renfrew which concludes and Gimbutas agrees with their notes that metallurgy was so well developed in in the region during the 5th mil. BC, that it is simply impossible for it to have been introduced from Anatolia or the Near East.

akritas

02-13-2007, 10:32 AM

The decipherment of Linear B (we must consider that 48 from her 64 marks they show they emanate from Linear A) proves that the Cretan language of Minoan season was Greek. It is absolutely sure that this Greek language had pattern in oral level much older days, after it is not possible the oral format to be developed at the same time with written.

More specifically, provided that we are for so much perfect in the expression of meanings language, then we must to suppose the existence of long stage of growth and her treatment. Thus professor Babiniotis makes quote for age of Greek language "40 and more centuries", rather conservatively placed for obvious reasons.

If it is combined this observation with thenew discoversofthe Anthropology orArchaeology, that did not exist immigratory wavefrom not natives to the Hellenic space, the format of basic corethe Greek vocabulary it is reduced a lot before the configuration of closed settlements of 7millennium in the Sesklo and elsewhere?

Diodoros Sikeliotis was right finally when speak for alived ancient Greek civilizations and the most important the develpment of the alphabet?

Spartan

02-13-2007, 05:46 PM

Flipper

02-13-2007, 06:24 PM

I don't really think its a contradiction.

I believe he means that all the Greeks were Pelasgians originally both culturally and linguistically, but through time and mixture with other groups the Greeks evolved into what they were in Herodotus' time. Thus their language and culture changed so much that it was no longer recognisable to the Pelasgians. So the Pelasgians in Herodotus' time were not considered Greek since they remained isolated from the mixing. By Herodotus' time there was already a cultural superiority of the "Greeks" over those who remained more "primitive", so that is why he mocks the Athenians for marrying the Carian women.

I will agree with Orphic. Herodotos doesn't say the Greek language was unrecognisable for the pelasgians but that he is not certain how pelasgian sounded it the beginning.

Flipper

02-13-2007, 06:25 PM

Not sure which settlement you're talking about but we definitely can link customs seen in Sesklo and Dimini to those seen in later Mycenean Hellas. For example there are finds of seals which depict the 'Maiandros', the unique for its age fortifications of Sesklo and Dimini, the pottery styles that suggest continuety and evolution instead of importation or even the older find in Frachthi which indicates that the 'ovolos' custom of placing a coin (then of course a simple rock since coins weren't invented) in the mouth of the deceased which was continued well into the Hellenistic era.

I know that they have an acropolis which is typical for a greek city. Didn't know about the Maiandros though. Do you have any pictures?

Flipper

02-13-2007, 06:29 PM

Lakonian

02-14-2007, 12:51 AM

The decipherment of Linear B brought a closer study of the evolution of the Greek language and the theory that it actually came into existence in Greece. Bands of warriors entered Greece, it is true, but not as Greeks. When they came to predominate, Proto-Greek evolved in Greece from their language, which took elements from the pre-Greek there. For example, the word for cypress is pre-Greek, and yet it evolved into dialectical forms. The proto-Greeks could only have encountered it in Greece. Wherever the Dorians were coming from, it was not outside Greece.

So from this we can still come to a conclusion that we are only seperate from our ancestors in name i.e Dorians, Pelasgians, Ionians, Myceneans, Achaens, Aeolians...nothing else. Hellas came only into great use when we were all slowly uniting, apart from that i think from what i have read Athenians only believed they were true Hellenics (politics)

Did Dorians introduce Iron to Hellas?

Istor

02-14-2007, 08:47 AM

I tend to believe the IE theory. An IE people arrived in Greece throught Asia minor AND from the North. Those people met a non IE people in Greece (Pelasgians). IE hellenized Pelasgians and now we are Greeks. Many Athenians were of Pelasgian origin, that's why they believed that they were "autochthonous" and were proud of it. They humiliated Dorians (Spartans) for settlements.

The Egyptian and Phoenician settlements were unimportant, if true. But I believe that Phoenicians had Cretan origin and if Linear A is proven Greek, then they had Greek origin.

Orphic_Hymn

02-14-2007, 11:12 AM

I know that they have an acropolis which is typical for a greek city. Didn't know about the Maiandros though. Do you have any pictures?

Here are 2 pics of seals found at Sesklo.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/sfragidesa.gif?t=1171469472

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/sseala.gif?t=1171469476

The second pic of a maiandros type maze is the most common pattern in the seals that have been found.

akritas

02-14-2007, 11:45 AM

As shown comprehensively by David W. Packard in Minoan Linear A , the Linear A syllables can be read sensibly with linear B valuesL.R. Palmer, following the hypothesis that Linear A words could be read using Linear B sign values, showed in 1965 that some phrases could be understood if seen to be related to the Luwian language of Asia Minor.

As J. Chadwick several times repeated it :
"The Greek language arose through the mixture of a group of Indo-European speakers with an earlier population, and this group penetrated Greece at some time during the Middle Helladic or Early Helladic III period".

This statement has long been considered as indisputable, and it is only recently that J. Coleman (2000), on the basis of the most recent archaeological findings, has proposed that the "Proto-Greeks" arrived from the north at the beginning of the Early Bronze Age, in the later 4th mill BC

Two big questions as about the Greeks Linears or Chadwick theory also we must consider as about the origin of the ancient Greeks

The first weakness of the Chandwick Theory is its total disregard of the most ancient tradition. For all the ancient authors, the Ionians were "the first Greeks". There are no conflicting views about this among Herodotus, Strabon or Pausanias, although there is one concerning the origin of the Ionians. I will notice, in particular, that Herodotus - who call them "Pelasgoi" - established a link between the Ionians and the oldest inhabitants of the Cycladic Islands. He wrote : "The inhabitants of the islands ... were also a Pelasgic people. They were later called Ionians for the same reason as the Ionians who came from Athens.." I add also the the Istor comment...!
Chadwick theory essentially rests upon a study of the Greek Dialects. Before proceeding to a complete examination of the problem, it is interesting to remind the best established facts in this field. The classification of the Greek dialects into four groups (Ionic-Attic, Arkado-Cypriot, Aiolic and West Greek) has been universally accepted, as has also been agreed by all scholars that "Greek" (or at least its Indo European component) has been brought by "immigrants from the north". Another strong geographical implausibility of the Chadwick theory comes from the comparison between Cypriot and Attic concerning their links with Mycenaean. If we accept that Attic shares very few features in common with Mycenaean (See hereafter), the situation is different with the Arkadian and Cypriot dialects. The links are there sufficient to let one believe in a common ancestor - the Mycenaean - c.1200 BC, i.e. at a time close to the end of the Mycenaean era. Hence a killing objection : how to explain, then, in the frame of the RC Theory, that after the disappearance of the Mycenaean World the Arkadian dialect remained closer to the far-away Cypriot than to the nearer Attic dialect ?..
Despice the questions in my opinion the Chadwick (some call it also as Risch-Chadwick) theory is the most comprehensible theory bases in real facts and not in assumptions.

PS
@Flipper I like your signature:laugh:

Flipper

02-14-2007, 02:27 PM

Very nice post Akritas!
I've read about Colemans objection before. I have these points to this post:

1) The Luwian theory is getting closer lately. Many linguists while speculating the origins of the Greek language include the Luwian people as a background. I also found out that Αλάτι which has remained the same from the Pelasgian is Αλάτι in the Luwian language as well. Also the παρ-/ά (forward, accross, more than) that we use in front of words e.g παραπάνω, παράτολμο, παραπλήσιο, παράτολμο, παρυφή is Luwian as well. Then we have the verb πατώ, πατείς, πατεί which derives from the Luwian word pati (foot). The word μέλι (honney) is common in Luwian, Hittite and Phrygian. Remember also the Carrians who were accepted as Hellenes during the classical years were originally Luwians not Greeks.

2) The intruders that changed the Pelasgian language to become Greek could be the Phrygians in some extend.

English: man
Koine: Andras/Aner
Phrygian: Anar
Pelasgian: Andras

English: fast/improved
Koine: Velteros/Veltistos
Phrygian: Valeos, veleros

English: swamp
Koine: Valtos
Phrygian: Velte

English: brother
Koine: Fratir
Phrygian: Vratir (Note how F becomes Β (V) like in Doric)
Pelasgian: Fratir

English: warm
Koine: Thermos (Δωτ. Ω θερμέ)
Phrygian: Germe

English: bad
Koine: κακό-ν
Phrygian: kakon

English: scratch
Koine: κνάω (κνούμαι --> scratch myself)
Phrygian: knoumane
Hittite: knu

English: Mother
Koine: Mitir
Doric: Matir
Phrygian: Matir

English: Great
Koine: Mega
Phrygian: Meka

English: Low (person)
Koine: Chamelos
Phrygian: Zamelo (means also "slave")

The similarities are more than obvious. It looks like "A" very old language followed different directions. Note that most scholars think that Phrygian is somehow connected to the Greek branch of Indo-European languages *. Those who do not include it into the Greek branch, include it in the same group of languages as Greek. This group includes Greek, Phrygian, Armenian. A minority claims there might be a connection to Illyrian, but there is no hard evidence for it, just assumptions.

In any case we might have the equation Pelasgian + Phrygian + Anatolian = proto-Greek.

An obvious question is: If most scholars believe that Phrygian (which is a difficult language for a greek to understand) is connected to the Greek branch of languages, HOW ON EARTH can it be a debate about the macedonian language????????????

Flipper

02-14-2007, 02:36 PM

PS
@Flipper I like your signature:laugh:

;)

That thread has been a source for some people when debating ;) It also topped the google lists. A higher level of debate compared to the usual fyromian blah blah. Besides it was between some of us and a person doing history for a living. It deserves to get more publishity!

Orphic_Hymn

02-14-2007, 04:06 PM

;)
Besides it was between some of us and a person doing history for a living.

While I'll agree that he did produce some interesting arguments and that it was a good debate, don't give him that much credit..
It was he that had claimed:

The reason why the "Ionian Sea" is west of Greece is because it was named after a legendary Illyrian chief by the name of Ionius, and not after the "Ionians".

I'm sure you see my point.

Flipper

02-14-2007, 06:25 PM

Orphic...

I don't think he believed all the things he said. I think it all started with a beef he had with Akritas. If you look closely on his tactics, it was mainly sofistics. He just tryed to win the debate not to reach a result and prove he is right. He had access to university areas (JSTOR etc) and could missinterprete some data from there if he wanted. Insted he lied to me about the dictionary definitions. It was all about an ego thing in the end. Anyway, lets get back to the subject.

akritas

02-25-2007, 05:13 PM

Greeks gradually occupied the Aegean territory from the end of the 3rd(Linear A) or the beginning of the 2nd millennium b.c(Linera B). But it is still not clear where they dwelt before this invasion, or, in other words, where the proto-Greek region lay. Study of toponyms shows clearly that this region lay approximately in north-western Greece. The proofs are as follows:

Here the typical pre-Greek toponyms are lacking.
Almost all toponyms, especially the most important ones from this region, are of Greek origin and they often show archaic Greek features. Toponyms: Ήπειρος,Θεσπρωτία,Καμμάνια,Άργος, Βουχετός,Γόννος,Οσχεσμός etc. Hydronyms:Αχερών,Πηνειός . Oronyms: Κεραυνία, Πίνδος.
The two common Greek denominations Έλληνες (Hellenes) and Γραικοί (Greeks) originate from Epirus.
The most characteristic toponym Άργος(Argos) here is which occurs in this region four times; it means '(the) white town' and is of Greek origin.
The original region of the ancient Macedonians was the basin of the river Haliakmon. The oldest toponyms here are very similar to the North-western ones. Numerous isoglosses connect the Macedonian language with different Greek dialectS. This fact attests the genetic identity of Macedonian and Greek. However, there is an essential difference between Macedonian and all other Greek dialects. This is the change of IE ma into ta in Greek which was completed before the epoch of the Mycenaean documents(Linear B). In Macedonian IE ma changed into m. This difference which separates Macedonian from all other Greek dialects is therefore very old. There are also other differences. Anyway the last foundings given a lot of informations regarding in which Greek linguistic group belong the Macedonian dialect

Orphic_Hymn

02-27-2007, 05:18 AM

Just one correction if I may..

English: brother
Koine: Fratir
Phrygian: Vratir (Note how F becomes Β (V) like in Doric)
Pelasgian: Fratir

We never used 'fratir' to denominate the meaning of brother but 'adelphos' (from the same 'delfus' [womb]), 'fratir' had a religio-political meaning which suggested something best represented in english through the meaning of 'brotherhood/clan'

I also found out that Αλάτι which has remained the same from the Pelasgian is Αλάτι in the Luwian language as well.

Any chance of you knowing if the language in question or other languages (IE) use the word "als' in other forms like we do..
For example, we know of Mycenean "opiala" (coastal "opi"=on + "als"=sea), "almH" = sea-water, "almuros" = "aluros" = salty, "alios" =`of the sea', "alieus"= fisher............. etc ??

Tsontos

02-28-2007, 08:03 AM

The term Pelasgian had been used by the Ancient Greeks and by classical scholars to refer to the plebian population of the ancient Hellenic Empire

-A Review of the Ethnographic Cartography of Macedonia by H. R. Wilkinson, 1951

Ptolemy

02-28-2007, 08:39 AM

There is another explanation coming from Max Duncker (1881:8) who argued that Greeks arrived in the Balkans at an early period and that the terms 'Pelasgians' , 'Akhaians' and 'Hellenes' were simply three chronogically successive names for the same population.

akritas

03-06-2007, 02:21 PM

an intresting theory that I just found in the net

The pattern and timing of expansion suggested by the four analyses in Fig. 1 is consistent with the Anatolian farming theory of Indo-European origin. Radiocarbon analysis of the earliest Neolithic sites across Europe suggests that agriculture arrived in Greece at some time during the ninth millennium BCand had reached as far as Scotland by 5,500 years BC.

Figure 1 shows the Hittite lineage diverging from Proto-Indo-European around 8,700 years BC, perhaps reflecting the initial migration out of Anatolia. Tocharian, and the Greco-Armenian lineages are shown as distinct by 7,000 years BC, with all other major groups formed by 5,000 years BC.

This scenario is consistent with recent genetic studies supporting a Neolithic, Near Eastern contribution to the European gene pool. The consensus tree also shows evidence of a period of rapid divergence giving rise to the Italic, Celtic, Balto-Slavic and perhaps Indo-Iranian families that is intriguingly close to the time suggested for a possible Kurgan expansion. Thus, as observed by Cavalli-Sforza et al., these hypotheses need not be mutually exclusive.

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz/Psych/research/Evolution/Gray&Atkinson2003.pdf

akritas_gs

06-24-2007, 08:36 PM

Something concerned about the Autochthony theory that i got from a website. I got pictures too about that finding , but the're in pdf form as the rest of the text and right now i have no time to get em for you fellas. However, this is from greco report..kai opios pistepsi pistepse :)

"Homo Erectus Trigliensis & Archanthropus Europeaus Petraloniensis":
Our Macedonian Ancestors
Being an account of the heroic personal struggle of Dr. Aris Poulianos, who is
challenging the politically motivated myth of a common African or Semitic Middle-
Eastern ancestry for mankind. His work in and around the Petralona Cave in
Macedonia has provided unassailable proof that the most likely candidate for this
distinction is Greece.
But first we relate an interesting encounter, which had a bearing on subsequent events
As an introduction to the horrors which were to follow, Dr.Poulianos, beginning on page 12 of Anthropos (the
annual journal of the Anthropological Association of Hellas, which he founded), relates an event that took place
in February of 1966, during a "working luncheon" at the hotel Grande Bretagne in Athens. The luncheon -- to
which the entire governing board of the University of Patras had been invited -- was organized by the then U.S.
ambassador to Greece, Mr. [Strobe] Talbott.
During the course of the luncheon, the first secretary of the U.S. Embassy, a Mr. Taylor, questioned Dr.
Poulianos, who was then the head (among other things) of the foreign languages department, as to why the
Russian language was included among the European languages taught at the university. Mr. Taylor's question
was asked in an "loud, aggressive tone of voice, and in the presence of the ambassador."
Dr. Poulianos replied that he was simply following the personal directive of the then prime minister of Greece,
the late George Papandreou, which ordered that the university teach " ... the five principal European languages."
Implying, of course, that any reasonable compliance to such a directive would naturally have to include the
Russian language. He went on to assure Mr. Taylor that English was also being taught.
This did not seem to please the American, and Dr. Poulianos went on to explain: "I am teaching Mathematics,
Biology, and Physics, not Marxism." At which point, Ambassador Talbott interjected: "When I was a professor
in Pakistan, Dr. Poulianos, I and my colleagues would translate anything of importance coming out of the Soviet
Union into English."
Dr. Poulianos answered: "Mr. Ambassador, our committee chose the English language as being the one that
would be considered the most important. As to your comment about translating everything of importance that
came out of the Soviet Union into English, my only reply is that Hellas is not Pakistan!"
A few days later, "Ambassador Talbott summoned Plutarchos PapaÃ¯ouannou -- a representative in Greece for the
American company Dupont, and a fellow member of the governing board of Patras University -- to his office at
the U.S. Embassy. 'Dr. Poulianos isn't needed as a member of the governing board of your university,' said
Talbott. 'His theories about the "Origin of the Hellenes" smacks of racism, nazism, and Hitlerism. Besides, the
Russians encouraged his work in order to enflame a sense of nationalistic patriotism within the Greek
people!' "
And so it happened that "... on 4 April 1967, the subsequent prime minister of Greece, Professor
Panagiotis Kanellopoulos, without giving any explanation whatsoever, summarily removed me from the
governing board of the University of Patras."
Dr. Poulianos continues: "It seems I am still paying for that harsh answer to Mr. Talbott."
It may be of interest to the reader to know that this is the same Strobe Talbott, who (along with Clinton, Bush
the1st, Carter, Reagan, Kissinger, the Rockefellers, and, of course, our own little "presidential gofer" -- and
Clinton's chief whipping boy -- George Stephanopoulos), is a member of that nation-state-hating cabal of
insiders, the Council on Foreign Relations. The same Strobe Talbott who, as the diplomatic correspondent for
Time Magazine covering Iran in the early '70s, was the recipient of "lavish gifts," distributed by Ardeshir Zahedi,
Iran's ambassador to Washington at the time (Jonathan Kwitny, Endless Enemies: The Making of an Unfriendly World. New York: Penguin, 1986. 188f).
The same Strobe Talbott who, after the Sept. 11th tragedy (and as one of America's more hawkish talking
heads), was frequently seen on the tube "enflaming" the American people into a frenzy of "nationalistic
patriotism," so as to juice them up to go to war against the same kind of Islamic fundamentalist goons he
used to accept "lavish gifts" from -- presumably as a reward for writing nice things about them.
We continue now with Dr. Poulianos' odyssey, beginning with the discovery of Archanthropus europaeus
petraloniensis
In late summer of '02, TGR staffers made the trip to Macedonia in order to visit the Petralona Cave, which is
situated not far from the Halkidikian town of Nea Trigleia (about 40 kilometers south of Thessaloniki). We had
read about the important work that the distinguished Greek anthropologist, Dr. Aris Poulianos, has been doing
there, and wished to see the site and perhaps speak to Dr. Poulianos about his discoveries. We were able to do
both, and will comment upon our interview with this heroic Hellene below.
Our interest in the work of such outstanding scholars as archaeologist Liana Souvaltzi, Dr. Mary Lefkowitz, Dr.
David Hansen, Dr. John Heath, Dr. Bruce Thornton, Dr. Bernard Knox, Dr. Manolis Andronikos, Dr. Aris
Poulianos, archaeologist Evangelos Mbeksis and others, stems from our concern about the way Greek history is
being twisted and distorted in order to serve the political agenda of malevolent frauds and racial supremacists.
Such people have always existed, but were unable to do very much harm in the past. Unfortunately their
dissembling intellectual descendants are more active, effective, and dangerous today than ever before.
These ersatz "scholars" were not so effective in the past because they were confined to disseminating their lies
to a small number of intellectuals via the written word. There was no technology available with which to
indoctrinate the masses on a grand scale, and so their effect was minimal. Another reason lies in the fact that --
as opposed to the current deplorable state -- real scholars in times past comprised the majority, and were, by
virtue of their hard-won erudition, philhellenic in the extreme. Such individuals would brook no self-serving or
politically inspired distortions concerning the miracle of Hellenism and its life-ennobling impact on humanity.
It was his desire to counter revisionist dirty-dealing in his own discipline, coupled with the discovery of a human
skull of great antiquity, which had been found by a shepherd in a cave in Northern Greece, that caused Dr.
Poulianos to interrupt the work he was doing on the origin of the Hellenes and return to his homeland from the U.
S.S.R. He had been reading reports about the skull with great interest, and had even been contacted regarding its
proper preservation by the professors at the University of Thessaloniki, where it had been taken to be examined
by Greek and foreign scientists. One of these scientists, the German physical anthropologist, Professor Eugene
Breitinger, made a report of his findings at the International Congress of Anthropological and Ethnological
Sciences in Moscow in August of 1964, which Dr. Poulianos attended. In his presentation, Prof. Breitinger stated
that "...the skull had been dragged into the cave, probably by an animal, or it had fallen through a crack of rocks
down to where it was found. The skull belonged, probably, to a man of Rhodesian type ... and represented a stage
called the Neanderthal stage of human evolution. ...A colleague at the conference confirmed this point of view,
stating 'this is the first African out of Africa' " (Poulianos, The Cave of the Petralonian Archanthropinae. 11).
After hearing this report to the Congress by so eminent an authority as Professor Breitinger, Dr. Poulianos
became interested in seeing what else could be done to "...investigate the existence of primitive humans in
Greece" (11 f ). And so, in January of 1965, he returned to Greece where he and a small team of helpers began
immediately to excavate the Petralona Cave, where the skull had been found.
After searching the site, Dr. Poulianos concluded that since the skull had been stuck about 20 centimeters (8
inches) above the floor of the cave, -- held in place by a stalagmitic formation -- there must be a skeleton
somewhere nearby, even though no mention had ever been made of one. This conclusion turned out to be right,
for "...the skeleton of it lay under the stalagmitic floor [in the 11th layer], 20 centimeters below. The skeleton
had sunk with the soil during a dry period, thousands of years after the human had laid down and died" ( 8f ).
Dr. Poulianos and his team carried on with the excavation. They worked very cautiously, using small instruments
such as scalpels and brushes. The bones they discovered were preserved with chemicals, and, by the time they
reached a depth of 90 cm, had uncovered four layers of soil that Dr. Poulianos believes had formed from some 2
million years ago. Then, in the fourth layer, a small milk tooth of a human infant was found. Tools of the
"Levallois" technique were also unearthed. These tools misled Dr. Poulianos into thinking that Breitinger was
right, for they resembled those of a period during which the Mousterian culture that used such tools flourished
(about 50,000 years ago) (1). The problem was, however, that the animal remains they were finding did not
confirm the age of these stone tools. Here is Dr. Poulianos in his own words on what happened next:
Going deeper down and finding more primitive implements, more
bones and other traces of human activity, we rejected the idea of
Mousterian culture. We decided it was the stage of Homo erectus
present there in that cave, and thus it was announced, in the spring
of 1968, that Homo erectus had existed in Greece and not only in
Africa and Asia (15).
Naturally, such an announcement sent shock waves throughout the civil-servant "archaeological establishment"
in Greece. These politically appointed hacks -- who owed their jobs and fancy titles to their Hellas-hating
"socialist" masters in the government -- came swarming out of their hallowed halls, spewing their envious poison
right from the start. The Chief of the Archaeological Service and President of the prestigious Athens Academy,
S. Marinatos, sent a committee of scholars to investigate Dr. Poulianos' findings. The report these stalwarts
issued said that the tools and other artifacts discovered so far were "...only the deeds of God and none were the
deeds of man." After this report was presented, the Archaeological Service decided to close down the cave,
and throw Dr. Poulianos and his team of volunteers out.
The cave remained officially sealed and out of bounds until 1974, when it was permitted to reopen under the
auspices of the Anthropological Association of Greece. During all that time, Dr. Poulianos continued to enter the
cave illegally, having been given the key to the iron door at the entrance by the president (mayor) of the village,
who trusted him. In 1974, Dr. Poulianos and his team decided to expand the excavation and open a new entrance
into the cave. About 100 meters of track was put down as well, so that a shuttle could move in and out carrying
artifacts and satchels of soil to be examined in the makeshift laboratory erected at the site.
Dr. Poulianos needed to determine the geological age of the skull, and find more evidence of continuous life in
the cave, before the Petralona find could be classified in the chain of human evolution. To date (2002) the
remains discovered in the cave have been dated (2) to the Lower Pleistocene period (ca.700,000 years ago), and,
according to Dr. Poulianos:
It is now widely acknowledged that the Petralona human was
a Homo erectus, and that the skull is the most complete and
well preserved pre-Neanderthal-type cranium yet discovered. ...
Still we continue, because the discoveries made at our excavations
and others in this region strongly support another
theory of ours. We believe that here, in what is now Northern
Greece (all of Macedonia and Thrace included), part of a great
stage of human evolution occurred (17f).

The Petralona cranium has now been named Archanthropus europaeus petraloniensis. Dr. Poulianos believes
that the Petralona human found in the 11th layer represents an early predecessor of Homo Sapiens in Europe, and
is prepared to back his claim with evidence about "geological age, degree of development of the brain, and stage
of social evolution" (19). Along with the human skull, there was the full skeleton of Archanthropus found under
the floor of the cave. Based upon the skull and the remaining fragments of the skeleton, Dr. Poulianos came to
certain conclusions about the age, sex, and height of Archanthropus: He was a male, approximately 5' 1" in
height. He was about 30 to 35 years of age (an old man for his time), and probably died of "old age," though, at
the present time, there is no way of determining if he suffered from any diseases. In that part of the cave where
Archanthropus died (called the Mausoleum), remains of food and fire were also discovered. Awls made of bone
were scattered about, and may have been used to hold an animal-skin blanket covering the dying man. The
Mausoleum is the warmest and driest part of the cave, and it is possible that Archanthropus went there because
he was sick and needed warmth.
Unable to tend to himself, he was brought food and kept warm
by other human beings, attesting to a certain respect for him (or
for human life) by the others. This suggests that even in such early
populations, humans may have joined into social bonds (23).
Proceeding with the excavations, two long limbs of other Archanthropinae were found in the 16th layer. In other
places, smaller pieces of human bones, teeth, and a fragment of a skull from a young individual were unearthed.
Significant too, is the fact that "...thousands of stone and bone tools" were discovered, leading Dr. Poulianos to
conclude that "...Petralona is the most densely [populated] area of the early Pleistocene world to be found to
date." And that
[h]ere, on this quiet mountainside overlooking the Aegean Sea,
might have been the New York City of the day. Excavations are
continuing, and the future promises more evidence of human life,
regarding not only the populations, but the ways of life of our very
distant ancestors (25).
The main result of Dr. Poulianos' work at the Petralona Cave is that he has proven the existence of the Homo
erectus stage of human evolution in Southeast Europe. Now Greece must be included in the list of territories
where Homo sapiens evolved. But where did the Archanthropinae come from? Did they spread to the southeast
of Europe from other continents or did they develop locally?
Homo erectus trigliensis: Our common European (non-African) ancestor
His work at the Petralona Cave convinced Dr. Poulianos that humans lived in the general area long before
moving into the cave. This conviction led to a search that extended into the vicinity of what is today the village
of Nea Trigleia, about 12 kilometers away. It was there that Dr. Poulianos and his team discovered an abundance
of "...a new Miocene fauna" (72). This fauna included the bone fragments of many of the ancestors of the
mammals whose remains were found in the cave, along with their coprolites (3). Among the many mammalian
coprolites were found hominid ones as well, proving the existence of higher apes in the area.
This was not the only evidence of higher apes found in Greece. "In 1942, in Attica, the lower jaw of
'graecopithecus' was found. Its age was considered to be about 8.5 million years. ... In 1972, the French
expedition in Macedonia found more hominid fossils ... of the Upper Miocene time. Finally, an upper part of a
left femur of an almost-standing ape was found in 1974 on the island of Euboea, and named Helladopithecus. Its
age was established provisionally as of Upper Miocene too, like the age of the well known Pikermi fauna, where
the Mesopithecus pentelicus was found." Dr. Poulianos goes on to say: "To my mind, these hominid finds from
Macedonia and Southern Greece should be included into an overall subfamily of Helladopithecinae, and have
claims to being the forerunners of the Homo species, along with the Ramapithecus and the Kenyapithecus of the
Upper Miocene period" (73f). He continues:

Thus the hominization process in SE Europe started, according
to the data of the Miocene fauna from Trigleia, at least 9 to 12 million years ago. ... [T]he data found in Greece over the last
decade challenges the notion that Africa was the only place of
origin of the hominidae (74).
It was here, in the vicinity of the modern-day village of Nea Trigleia, about 12 kilometers away from the
Petralona Cave, that Dr. Poulianos made another "ground-breaking" discovery: one which may prove to be the
most important ever made in the search for the answer to the question: when, and from where did our ancestors
originate? But let us here render a condensed summary of the events leading up to this momentous find:
For a variety of reasons, most of the world's anthropologists hold the view that man first appeared in Africa, and
from there spread all over the world. As a result of his years of work as an anthropologist, Dr. Poulianos has
come to a different conclusion. The key to his research was the morphological and anthropometrical examination
of a few thousand people in Tashkent of Central Asia, where Greeks and other Balkan peoples had found refuge
in the 1960s. This research led him to conclude that the people of S.E. Europe are autochthonous.
Then came the discovery of the Archanthropus europeaus petraloniensis ( Petralona man). Dr. Poulianos proved
that he lived in the 11th layer of the geological stratification of the cave where his remains were found: that is,
the Crenian cold period more than 700,000 years ago. He uncovered 27 layers, all inhabited by man, the ages of
which range from 1 million down to 580,000 years. Many human remnants were found, a great quantity of stone
and bone implements, and, above all, the oldest traces of fire found to date anywhere on the planet.
He concluded that Archanthropus was a real Homo sapiens, with articulated speech -- as the dextrality of the
implements showed -- thus his progenitors should be looked for in this territory, and not in Africa. The research
in Macedonia was conducted under the auspices of the Anthropological Association of Greece, and, as the
Petralona Cave research was going on, new Miocene fauna was discovered at Micralona (Nea Trigleia) about 12
kilometers away. Macedonia proved to be a paradise of anthropoids and animals, and hundreds of stone and bone
implements of quartz, bauxite, and other such artifacts were found. The layers, along with the faunal evidence,
were tested palaeomagnetically at the Earth Institute of the University of South Carolina. All layers of the Upper
Miocene stratigraphy -- where evidence of anthropidae appearance was contained -- were named Anthropogenus
by Dr. Poulianos. These have been dated separately and are approximately Eleven million years old, plus or
minus one million years.
In 1996, a fragment of a tibia [shin bone] was found inside
a marble layer of the same terrace, which Dr. Poulianos,
according to its "torzine angle" and other evidence, is convinced
belongs to an erectus man, the oldest ever found on earth.
He gave it the name Homo erectus trigliensis, from the place
near to where it was discovered (Poulianos, Anthropos. 56f).
He thus concludes that man originated and then spread out into the world from the area of Northern
Greece and the Aegean, thereby proving the monocentric theory of man's origin.
While speaking to our staff members, Dr. Poulianos related the hardships he has had to endure for committing
the "unspeakable crime" of trying to project Hellas and Hellenism in a truthful and scientific way. His work at
the Petralona Cave and vicinity has brought him worldwide recognition and praise, but in his own homeland he
was the victim of a legal vendetta that lasted fifteen years. Naturally, not one single penny of financial support
has ever been forthcoming from the "Greek" government: a government that will bend over backwards to
subsidize the most destructive, Helleno-hating venture in the name of "diversity" and "multiculturalism," but will
tenaciously resist and obstruct anything that unites the Greeks, and tends to make them more knowledgeable and
proud of their unique heritage. Whether it's money to build a new mosque, funding a film about the glories of
interfaith or interracial marriage, or sponsoring the construction of yet another Holocaust (sic) museum or
monument, the funds from government coffers flow freely. Just so long as it isn't something that says anything
positive about Hellas, Hellenism, or Orthodoxy.
TGR staff asked Dr. Poulianos to explain just why the bureaucracy and political officials of the "Greek"
government did everything in their power to hamper his work by closing down the Petralona Cave, denying him
entry, and even creating the climate where thugs actually beat and pummeled him when he tried to assert his protect him from further physical, financial, and legal aggression:
The reason I was dragged through the courts and even
physically attacked lies in the fact that Hellas today is
ruled by a cabal of "aliens" who hate everything Greek.
I was fortunate in that, after 15 years of litigation, my
case was finally heard by Greek [!] judges who looked
at the evidence and found in my favor.
We beg the reader to carefully reconsider Dr. Poulianos' Kafkaesque assertion about being lucky to find
"Greeks" in the Greek judicial system. To the uninitiated, this sounds bizarre and unreal; but to those who've
lived in postmodern Hellas for any length of time, and have "eyes to see and ears to hear," this statement rings as
true as a bell.
Dr. Poulianos is not in the least bit shy when it comes to writing about his experiences as well. In the journal,
Anthropos, put out by the Anthropological Association of Greece, he relates the following:
"After decades in Macedonia, and more specifically in the Cave of the 'Archanthropus of Petralona,' in
Halkidiki, I brought to light ground-breaking proofs of the existence of the oldest erect and intelligent
European man ever discovered. Archanthropus lived more than 700,000 years ago; he originated here, in
Northern Greece and the Northern Aegean, and he represents the very beginning of the family of man.
Besides Archanthropus, I discovered the oldest traces of fire, over 1 million years old, and, most recently,
the tibia [shin bone] of a standing man who lived approximately 11 million years ago [Homo erectus
trigliensis]. My finds have been verified by eleven of the most prestigious universities in the world, and
have been certified and endorsed at ... two international anthropological conventions ... where
Archanthropus was declared to be the oldest intelligent inhabitant of our continent. ...
"[Since then] the validity of my work has become the target of a villainous conspiracy of calumny and
vilification by those who wish to do all in their power to diminish and discredit Hellas. ... I became the
target of the haters of Hellenism and Hellas because my theories contradict their venomous schemes
designed to beguile the masses into believing that there is no biological continuance between our people
and their ancient ancestors: that the Greeks and the Cretans are not autochthonous (4). Meanwhile, as
they disseminate this lie, they are promoting the self-serving and deceptive theory that the cradle of
mankind is to be found in Africa" (9f).
Dr. Poulianos' struggle is similar to that of the heroic fight for truth being waged by that indomitable
archaeologist, Liana Souvaltzi, whose misadventures with the ruling slime in Athens is reported upon at length in
TGR. As a "kindred spirit," Dr. Poulianos rallied to Liana Souvaltzi's cause by sending a letter requesting that the
president of Greece do something to stop the illegal and unwarranted interruption of her work in Egypt, where
she has uncovered the largest Macedonian temple-tomb ever found; a tomb that has been declared by Mrs.
Souvaltzi to be that of Alexander the Great. We translate the text of this letter, and the answer he received, as
follows:
To the Honorable President of the Democracy Mr. Kostis Stephanopoulos.
Herodou Attikou, Athens
cc Egyptian Embassy
Honorable Mister President,
The Anthropological Association of Hellas would like to entreat you to act, in cooperation with the Hellenic
Government, to put an end to the unwarranted and unjust attack that Archaeologist Liana Souvaltzi has been
subjected to over the past two years. This attack was initiated by the Hellenic Archaeological Council of the
Ministry of Culture. This body has no jurisdiction or authority to interfere with the excavations taking place in
another country: excavations which have so far unearthed the largest Macedonian temple-tomb ever discovered.
This work has been carried on by a Greek woman in the Egyptian desert [at her own expense]. We believe aefforts, would be the most equitable solution for the Greek, as well as for the Egyptian side.
Most respectfully, and acting for the Executive Committee,
Dr. A. Poulianos
Permanent Member of the International Council of
Anthropological and Ethnological Scientists of UNESCO.
Athens, 6 February 1997 (7).
Don't hold your breath, Dr. Poulianos. Of course, no action whatsoever was ever taken by the "Honorable
Mister President." And, as a souvenir (in addition to the bruises he got in the service of his country), Dr.
Poulianos can now add the reply he received from an underling of the "Honorable Mister President of the
Democracy." Our translation follows:
Mister Aris Poulianos
Professor and member of the Anthropological
Association of Hellas
Dafnomili 7,
114 71 Athens
Sir Professor,
The President of the Democracy is aware of the recent correspondence of the Anthropological Association of
Hellas and has made note of its contents.
Substitute Supervisor
of the Personal Office [of the president]
Panagiotis Tsolakopoulos (7).
WOW!
Those of you who have had no personal experience with the slimy little turds who comprise the vast majority of
the politicians, civil servants, and bloodsucking parasites (that do their bit every day to make sure the wheels of
real progress grind ever so slowly in modern-day Hellas) have probably been taken aback by the pomposity and
ostentatiousness of the reply. It is truly a sight to see, and an experience never to be forgotten, to be confronted
by a puffed-up civil servant, agitated because you've interrupted him or her while eating a tiropita, or talking to
mama on the telephone, and who insists on being addressed in the third person and by fancy titles. There are over
800,000 of these creatures (in a population of just over 10 million), feeding away at the public trough, and busily
engaged in creating "make-work" chores to justify their existence. The worst part is, once they achieve tenure it
is next to impossible to fire the bastards.
But to get back to Dr. Poulianos. He went on to tell our staff members that men first sought shelter in the cave
approximately 1,700,000 years ago. They did so in order to escape the ice-age cold, as is revealed by studying
the layers (stromatologio) in the cave. He talked about the traces of fire (ashes) that were found, and that have
been independently dated to be about 1,000,000 years of age: the oldest fire traces ever discovered anywhere on
earth. He said that the African finds are outside of the evolutionary track
of mankind, and so are those of Austrolopythikus, which
show that these creatures did not take part in the
evolutionary process which transpired here in Macedonia,
Crete, and the Aegean. There is no resemblance to the
African/Asian [ape] finds.
Man stood erect here for the first time, and no place else.
Archanthropus is the European ancestor of us all. Don't try to find mention of this great man's work in the controlled American press. An example of the kind of
deception being promoted regarding this important matter was to be seen this summer ('02) on the cover of the
European edition of Time magazine. It showed the reconstruction of a skull recently dug up in Africa by one of
the many generously subsidized teams working there. The features were clearly those of an apelike creature with
an extended brow over the eyeholes, and a small sloping cranium. TGR staff members gave this magazine to Dr.
Poulianos and asked him to comment upon the picture, as well as the cover's title, which blared The
Grandfather of Us All? Dr. Poulianos pointed out the distinctive parts of the skull which proved that it was that
of an ape and had nothing to do with the evolutionary progression of man. He smiled wearily, and said, "This
goes on all the time. They are desperately doing everything they can to show an African origin."
Of course, this is just another version of the hijacking of the miracle of Hellenic history and culture that has been
perpetrated by less-gifted races for centuries. What has thrown the current culture-kidnappers into a panic is that
Dr. Poulianos' work will blow the Foundation Myths these connivers are currently pushing sky-high. These
myths are designed to show a non-western, non-Hellenic origin for Western Civilization, and are being fostered
by those who are anticipating the gÃ¶tterdÃ¤mmerung of White, Christian, European culture in the West. They are
therefore perniciously inculcating and preparing the masses with these fabricated tales in order to justify their
long-awaited and heavenly-ordained rule over the rest of mankind.
We all know the litany of lies being taught to the young nowadays: That the Semitic Phoenicians gave us our
alphabet; that the ancient historians have not acknowledged the debt that the ancient Greeks owed to Egypt and
the (Semitic) Middle East; that Alexander the Great went to Jerusalem and "... alighted from his chariot and
bowed before Simon the Just, the high priest of Judea," who was the real reason Alexander was so successful in
his conquests (Goldin, 17f); that many Hellenized Jews of Alexandria "... sought to show that Greek religion and
philosophy had been inspired by Hebrew ideas." And that some of these Alexandrian Jews, such as Aristobulus,
" ... did not hesitate to invent information, or to report information invented by others" (Lefkowitz, 86), just as so
many of our current Black scholars are stretching into the realm of the fantastic to push their own puerile
Afrocentrist agenda (12 passim).
The fact that any serious study of the ancient sources would utterly discredit these charlatans and expose their
web of lies doesn't hinder the effectiveness of their campaign against the truth. This is because they know that
the overwhelming majority of those to whom they are peddling these fabrications have had no exposure
whatever to classical learning and are, in any case, too busy chasing after the "toys" they've been brainwashed
into thinking they need in order to be "happy." It is for this reason that the Classics have slowly but surely been
cut back or eliminated from the curricula of so many colleges and universities in the West. We can only hope
that the nascent reactionary backlash to this trend now forming in Europe will grow and spread to America as
well. For it is only with a Second Renaissance of the Hellenic miracle that humanity will escape from the
"slide into swinishness" that Western Civilization is currently experiencing.

1. "Mousterian" designates a late Paleolithic culture -- believed to be that of a race of Neanderthals -- remains
of which were found at Le Moustier in Southern France.
2. Dating of the cave was done in the U.S., Japan, Czechoslovakia, and Scotland using the following methods:
1) the Stratigraphic method, 2) the faunal and microfaunal method, and 3) the Lithic technique. The following
"absolute dating" methods were also used: 1) the Electron Spin Resonance (ESR) method, 2) the Uranium-
Thorium (U/Th) method, 3) Thermoluminescence (TL), 4) Palaeomagnetism, and 5) bone amino acid analysis.
Absolute dating of the stalagmite formation to which the skull was attached gives a date of ca. 700,000 years. An
even older age is given by the faunal evidence, and must also be considered.
3. fossilized excrement.
4. Both Crete and Cyprus are within the borders of what the rabbinical authorities, in their talmudic
interpretations, consider to be "Greater Israel." Large Jewish communities were to be found on both islands from
the time of Alexander the Great to the final destruction of Jerusalem (1 Macc. xv. 23).
In 1975, newspaper headlines throughout Greece announced the interdiction of an Israeli "fishing boat," which
had been stopped and boarded by the Greek Coast Guard. The Israeli "fishermen" had been dropping "'ancient'
tablets inscribed in Hebrew" into the waters off the coast of Crete. These "ancient" tablets would no doubt have
been "discovered" at some later date by Israeli marine archaeologists, and used to "prove" that the ancient
Cretans were "Semitic," thereby helping to lay the groundwork for the execution of their plan to add Crete to the
"Greater Israel" they are working to build. When Michael Ventris deciphered the Cretan Linear B inscriptions in
1953, and proved that they were written in Greek, there were no doubt many long faces among the Zionist
hegemonists and their fanatical allies in the racial-supremacist rabbinical community.
(For more on Israel's hegemonic daydreams, see the book Open Secrets: Israeli Nuclear and Foreign Policies,
by the late, great Israel Shahak. Pluto Press, London & Chicago.1997.)
Works Cited
Goldin, Hyman E. The Book of Legends: Tales from the Talmud and Midrash. Vol. III. New York: Hebrew Publishing Company, 1929.
Lefkowitz, Mary. Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became An Excuse To Teach Myth As History. New
York: Basic Books, a division of Harper-Collins Publishers, Inc., 1996.
Poulianos, Aris. The Cave of the Petralonian Archanthropinae. Athens: Library of the Anthropological
Association of Greece, 1982. Ed. Rick Jaffe.
-------- "The Cradle of Humanity is Halkidiki." Anthropos No.13. Athens: Anthropological Association of
Greece,1991-1997.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This article and excerpts in the Greek language from the anthropological journal Anthropos translated by TGR
staff are Â©.

akritas_gs

06-24-2007, 08:42 PM

The Appeal of Dr. Poulianos himself.

Aris Poulianos' Appeal to the Greek People
[Being an appeal by Dr. Aris Poulianos for support in his struggle to be reinstated as the head of
the scientific mission working to prove the origin of the Hellenes (and of all peoples of European
descent) at the Petralona Cave, located in Macedonia, Greece.]
HELLENES!
In 1983 I was illegally and violently removed from the Cave of the
Archanthropus at Petralona, Halkidiki [in Macedonia], where I had been
conducting my anthropological work. I was then subjected to judicial persecution,
which lasted for fifteen years. The Anthropological Association of Hellas (A.A.
H), of which I have had the honor to be president for a number of years, was
vindicated in every one of the court decisions subsequently handed down.
The Court of Appeals, in their 3798/12-5-97 decision, essentially denied the appeal of the Hellenic
Tourism Organization (H.T.O.) and the Hellenic State, and ordered, "IN THE NAME OF THE GREEK
PEOPLE," that the decision 8507/96 of the Athens Court of the First Instance be immediately
implemented in accordance with two prior decisions of the Supreme Court of Greece, to wit: That the
Hellenic State is obligated to turn over the control of the Petralona Cave, its museum, laboratory, gift
shop, library, refreshment stand, and publishing facility, together with all the surrounding areas attendant
to the site, to the A.A.H. immediately. Additionally, they were ordered to allow the A.A.H. to
immediately and fully reestablish itself in its previous location in order to carry on its research as the
one and only body authorized to continue the work at the Petralona Cave. The decision also provided for
the forceful implementation of its decision in the case of non-compliance.
Unfortunately, our Minister of Culture, Evangelos Venizelos, decided to oppose the decisions of our
courts. He did so as head of a conspiracy of interests which is determined to destroy my work, the
credibility of the A.A.H., and me personally.
HELLENES!
This conspiracy of interests arrogantly ignores the decisions of our courts of law, refusing to implement
them IN THE NAME OF THE GREEK PEOPLE. They are determined to attack me head-on because
my work -- and the scientific proofs I've discovered regarding the origin of the whole of humanity in
general and of the Hellenic race in particular -- overturn the unfounded and unproven theories being
purposely and craftily disseminated till now.
My scientifically grounded anthropological research has enabled me to disprove the anti-Hellenic
theories which ostensibly show that there is no biological continuance between us and our ancient
ancestors. Using incontestable proofs, I've shown that the descent of the Hellenic race, from the With the anthropological facts which I have brought to light, and after many years of research in Crete,
I've been able to prove that the Cretans, from the Minoan age to the present, are autochthonous, and not
-- as some very peculiar interest groups [!] would have it -- descended from any other race.
After decades of working in Macedonia, and specifically in the Cave of the Archanthropus of Petralona,
Halkidiki, I brought to light ground-breaking proofs which show that the oldest, erect, intelligent human
of Europe -- living over 700,000 years ago -- came from here: That Macedonia and the Northern
Aegean constitute the cradle of the human race. It was here, as well, that I discovered Archanthropus,
the oldest traces of fire ever found on earth (over one million years old), and, lastly, the tibia [shin bone]
of a standing man who lived approximately eleven million years ago.
These finds were dated and verified by eleven of the most prestigious universities in the world. They
were also verified by two International Anthropological Conventions, where the findings of the A.A.H.
were unanimously endorsed, thereby certifying my claim of Archanthropus being the oldest, intelligent
inhabitant of the continent of Europe. All of this seems to mean nothing to those here in Greece who, by
their behavior, are bringing disrepute to Greece.
Because of my work, which is grounded on scientific fact, I've also been the object of an unmerciful
campaign by the establishment elite in our university system because I've exposed their mistakes and
their criminal behavior.
The principal protagonists in this campaign have been professors who don't even have specialized
training as anthropologists, and who, after slinging the mud of disinformation, viciously slandering my
research, and, behaving in the most unscientific manner imaginable, sank to the lowest possible level by
actually destroying the "Skeleton of Archanthropus." In order to hide their unspeakable behavior,
they've had the audacity to claim that no such skeleton ever existed. This same "educational
establishment" has now embarked -- using various machinations and maneuvers -- to stealthily
appropriate my legal rights by seeking to have the A.A.H. removed from the Petralona Cave and
vicinity. They are also doing this in order to cover up their illegal excavations inside the Cave, which
were recently discovered by the court-commissioned inspections and by me personally. More than that,
they are desperately trying to hide the theft of hundreds of artifacts taken from the cave and illegally
smuggled out of Greece to the University of Hanover.
But the main reason that the Helleno-haters have targeted me is that my theories have overturned
and disrupted their crafty schemes having to do with deceiving the masses into believing that there
is no biological continuance of the Greek race, and that [the] Cretans are [also] not autochthonous.
They do this while deceptively pushing the false theory that says that Africa is the cradle of
humanity.
HELLENES!

Today, the leader of the assault against me is our Minister of Culture Evangelos Venizelos, together with
his head administrator, I. TzedÃ¡ki, with whom we are involved in litigation having to do with the
smuggling out of Greece of (among other things) a miniature Minoan head of Zakrou. This is a rare find
and an important artifact which can shed more light upon the question of the origin of the Cretans. An
artifact which -- thanks to the pleas of the newspaper Athesmeftos, as well as to my own -- has recently
been returned to Hellas after a very suspicious twenty-five year attitude of indifference on the part of
the Ministry of Culture.
After the recent (May 1997) inventory, during our tumultuous and violent reestablishment at the
Petralona Cave facility, and in the presence of the Judicial Authorities, the theft of the right thigh bone
of Archanthropus was experienced. A container within which the ashes of the oldest traces of fire ever
discovered were kept was also stolen. This was done in order to destroy the credibility of our
discoveries. Items of such enormous scientific importance -- had they been found in any other country --
would have caused the people, the government, and the universities of that country to demand that they
be vigorously protected for the benefit of mankind. Why is the opposite the case in Hellas?
Why did the Minister of Culture not only cover up these crimes, but gave strict orders to the Prefect of
the District of Halkidiki, V. Vasilaki (according to his own affidavit), to immediately and "... on his own
initiative" (?!) seal the Cave and the Museum, and not to allow me to approach my finds, " ... even for a
few seconds"? What is it that they fear so desperately that they range the whole of the power of the
state against me? Not only do they interfere with or ignore the decisions of the courts, they utilize
hoodlums to physically attack me in order to accomplish by blows what they cannot accomplish through
litigation; which is to remove me as the legal head of the excavations and the Museum. What are they
trying to hide?
What was the Lector of the Aristotelian University of Thessaloniki, E. TsoukalÃ¡, doing in the officially
sealed Petralona Museum, together with a G. KoufÃ³ (or other professors), on the night of 14 February
1997, while a decision of the court was still pending?
Why has the Archaeological Council of the Ministry of Culture, together with its head administrator, I.
TzedÃ¡ki, launched a mudslinging campaign of slander and disinformation against the Anthropological
Association of Hellas (A.A.H.)?
By what perverted logic has a numismatist been appointed to be the head of the Paleoanthropological-
Speleological Service, which operates under the aegis of the Ministry of Culture, and which I founded?
This woman has never even been in a cave [spÃ©laion], and yet had the audacity to order my arrest for
violating the statutes governing the "protection of antiquities," before I even had time to approach the
site where my discoveries were kept.
Finally, why is the Minister himself [Evangelos Venizelos] so rabidly and aggressively heading this
shameful and suspicious campaign to deny access to me and the A.A.H. to the Petralona facilities?

For my initiatives in this matter, I've been unmercifully persecuted, hounded, and even beaten by those
who've been given orders from higher-ups to neutralize me. I stood my ground, however, and resisted.
They then began (since 1983) to violate the law in order to eliminate me creatively, economically, and
even physically.
Though I have dedicated my life and all of my worldly possessions to the pursuit of the truth in the
service of Science and Hellas -- doing my duty both as a scientist and an Hellene -- my reward has been
to become the recipient of a mudslinging campaign of outrageous abuse [hybris], persecution, and
ridicule. Is it in this manner that those who struggle for Hellas are rewarded?
Because I have done my duty to you, the Hellenic People, I now ask you to come to my defense, and to
join me in the struggle against this alien-controlled cabal of Helleno-haters, whose mission is to
annihilate me and my work. I am confident that you will rise up and prevent those who -- by their
reprehensible behavior in this matter -- have shown themselves to be the enemies of Truth, Justice, and
Science whose only purpose is to strike yet another blow against you, the Hellenic People.
For all of the above-mentioned reasons, I appeal to you, Hellenes, and ask for your support in our
struggle for Justice.

Dr. Aris Poulianos
Permanent member of the International Council of
Anthropological and Ethnological Scientists of UNESCO.
1997

Source. Anthropos, the Journal of the Anthropological Association of Greece. No.13. Athens; A.A.
H.,1991-1997. pp.8-11.

:huh:

Lakonian

07-26-2007, 05:59 AM

Heres some things i came across.

Here are some things i have com across reading....

"Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"

" Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus"
Claudios Ptomely -Geographer

Epirus Daughter of Echion and Agave.It is told she died during during a trip with cadmus and Harmonia when they were bearing the remains of Pentheus. The country of her death was called Epirus after her.
(Apd .Ep.6.12 Eur.And.Passim.Pau 1.11.1-2).

Thesprotus.Son of Lycaon (Apd.3.8.1) Lycaon is the impious king of Arcadia who sacrificed a baby on the alter of Zeus and thereby caused the wrath of the god to destroy the world.

Parents of Lycaon were PELASGUS and Meliboea who were Autochtonous ( those who are said to be children of the soil, in other words aborigenes and had belonged to the land eternally.

Chaon a trojan known as Helenus ( son of priam) after whom the latter named the Chaonian plains, a district of Epirus (Vir.Aen.3.335)

Dionisios Allicanassus (Roman Archaeology)

"And the Trojan nation hellenic from peloponisos came forth

Agon Homer n Hesiod Papyruss 3 dubln 1891 page 70

"And the Trojan genos was Hellenic from the start"

Anyways. My confidence is that we are probably the most pure genetic people on earth, ofcourse there are going to be some of us who the direct link is broken but the point is the start. We never intermixed untill Alexanders campaign.Therefore we can say theres a little Greek in all of us.;)

Peace Lover

03-07-2008, 05:31 AM

On my opinion the Old Hellenes doesn't have the same origin . Is well known that Epirus was called " The home of the Dorians " ( Some nationalist " scholars " translate it < Home of Greeks > ) . Also is well known that the Atticians have origins from Thessaly ( near Olympus ) .
But the most difficult to be explained are the Acheans , they have a lot of similarities with the Persian culture of Caucassus , the region of Persian ( orginal ) : Arran or Latin : Albania .
We know that the Ionians and the Cretans were authochtonous .
Already they are described like Pelasgians .
But Dorians and Atticians are called Hellenes !!
Attician is a Pelasgian name !!
Dorians in the Trojan war are mentioned like " Lords of Pelasg (Pelasgia) " !!
Confusion !!
------------------------------------------
Pelasgian Hellenes ( Real Hellenes ) :
~ Ionians + Cretans , they are described authochtonous and Pelasgians !
Great , absolutely they were pure Greeks and Pure Pelasgians , for now Greek = Pelasgian .
100% Authochtonous , 100% Pealsgian , 100% Greeks !
------------------------------------------
Confusion :
~ Dorians + Atticians , called Pelasgians and later Hellenes , what means ?!
A lot of scholars belive that the name Hellenes means " Leaver " derived from the Albanian " E lenë " means , to leave .
Exp. They are pure Pelasgians like Ionians and Cretans but they only move to south ! Those Dorians has a big contact with the Albanian culture , some Arbërorë friends say to me that a Greek studier say that " Arvanitika derive from Dorian " , but he forggot that Arbërishtja is not considered a dialect of Albanian but only a variety of the Tosk dialect ( Standart Albanian ) !
Lets return in the thread :
Dorians + Atticians >
Pure Pelasgians , Pure Greeks , another time Pelasgains = Greeks .
100% Pelasgian , 1.000% Greeks , they move to south , what means , whats wrong if a poor villager of Imathia move to Thesaloniki for a better life ?!
The lands remain Greek / Pelasgian , part of THEY'RE NATION !
Another time : 100% Authochtonous ( remains theyr land " Greece " ) , 100% Pelasgian ( Probably more important , like Dorians ) , 100% Greek !
------------------------------------------
Acheans :
Acheans are the only that I think that they don't have Pelasgian origins , but Proto-Persian orgins . Why ?
Dorians are closely to Ionians and particulair they are similair to Cretans etc.
But Acheans seems different with all the rest of the Pelsgian ( REAL ) Greeks .
------------------------------------------
What I think is that the Acheans have nothing in common with the Pelasgians / Greeks ( Real ) .
I don't think that they were Greeks ( Pelasgians ) .
We know that the Acheans occupy Asia Minor , but the land was called Ionia ?
I think that the Acheans create only a millitarocracy in the Pelasgian ( Real Greek ) lands !
Remember Acheans fight over Troy helped by Egyptians and Ethiopians !
After the destruction of Troy the Lords Of Pelasg , the Dorians , vendicatte Troy by attacking the Acheans , after 3 wars they failed and was enslaved by the Acheans ?!
Ionians = Pelasgians , Dorians = Leaver Pelasagians > enslaved by Acheans !
Too may studiers belive that Greece was a millitarocracy of the Acheans in the Pelasgian ( Hellenic ) lands .
The same happens to the Thessalian tribe called Atticians wich attack the Achean OCCUPIED city of Athens , like Dorians they failed too , and get placed near Athens , by calling these land Attica .
-------------------------------------------------
And I think that the Greek nation is a mixation of 100% Authochtonous , 100% Pelasgian , 100% Aryan People like : Dorians , Atticians , Ionians , Cretans mixed with >
The Proto-Persian Acheans , not Authochtonous but original of Albania Caucassus ( Arran ) , not Pelasgian but Persian , not Aryan but Indo-Iranian .
-------------------------------------------------
And don't forggot Spartan wars over Achean Athens , The Acheans call the Dorian Spartans " Strangers " , they call " the lords of the Pelasgians , strangers " !
-------------------------------------------------
I vote for Indo-European !
1~ Pelasgians can be related to the Persians of Arran ( Albania Caucassus ) only with the Indo-Europeanism !
2~ Authochtonous Hellenes with the nomadic Acheans ? The only thing that they have in common is that they are Indo-Europeans !
3~ Aryans and Indo-Iranians are related to each other only with the Indo-Europeanism !
--------------------------------------------------
Afro what with Phoenicians is only cultural contact !
:mad:

Kuniska

03-07-2008, 09:37 AM

Πιστεύετε ότι οι πηγές μας είναι πλήρεις έτσι ώστε να βγάλουμε έγγυρα συμπεράσματα για την καταγωγή των Ελλήνων;... Διαβάζα ένα βιβλίο με τον ομώνυμο τίτλο αλλά δεν ξέρω... μου φαίνονται πολύ ανθρωπολογικά (μιλάει σε μια δόση πολύ για κρανία πως είναι του ενός και πως του άλλου) αυτά που λέει ο συγγραφέας και ξέρω οτι οι πηγές μας είναι λίγες. Πως μπορείς να βγάλεις συμπεράσματα για κάτι τόσο χαμένο στην ιστορία με τόσο λίγες πληροφορίες;

Orphic_Hymn

03-07-2008, 11:43 AM

What a load of crap.. and to think that you actually spent time and grey matter to compose this is laughable.
Since I'm a sucker for such stupidity.. I'll waste a couple of min on part of this trash.

Is well known that Epirus was called " The home of the Dorians " ( Some nationalist " scholars " translate it < Home of Greeks >

The home of the Dorians was Doris and that my friend has nothing to do with Epirus. Herodotus describes exactly where it is :

Herodotus 8.31
"Doris; there is a narrow tongue of Dorian land stretching that way, about thirty furlongs wide, between the Malian territory and the Phocian, which in old time was Dryopian. This region is the motherland of the Dorians of the Peloponnese."

) . Also is well known that the Atticians have origins from Thessaly ( near Olympus ) .

Well known by whom???
Atheneans were Ionians !!!

Herodotus 1.56:
"the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock."

But the most difficult to be explained are the Acheans , they have a lot of similarities with the Persian culture of Caucassus , the region of Persian ( orginal ) : Arran or Latin : Albania .

OK, so now we have a Persian and Achean cultural comparison.. and as if thats not bad enough, it all takes place in the Caucasus ?!?!?

So how to you intend to cover up the gap of several centuries? Since you're babbling about Pelasgians, Dorians, Ionians and Acheans, then you must know, well at least I honestly hope you do, that you're talking about dates prior to 1000BC.. so how do you compare the Acheans of lets say 1200BC to a region in which Persians appear some 600yrs later during the Median Empire's expansion ?

Attician is a Pelasgian name !!

Pausanias 1.2.6:
"They say that Cranaus had daughters, and among them Atthis; and from her they call the country Attica"

Dorians in the Trojan war are mentioned like " Lords of Pelasg (Pelasgia) " !!

Dorians aren't mentioned in any text related to the Troyan war and especially not as lords of anything. The only reference that can be related to them is that of Heraklides.

~ Dorians + Atticians , called Pelasgians and later Hellenes , what means ?!
Dorians aren't called Pelasgians simply because they're not, unless you're thinking of Herodotus who states that the Hellenes separated from the Pelasgians, so the Dorians which were Hellenes, are also Pelasgians.

A lot of scholars belive that the name Hellenes means " Leaver " derived from the Albanian " E lenë " means , to leave .

Yeah, so many that you forgot to name not many but a single one.
Hellenes just like the female name Helen derive from the root "el" = shine, bright

We know that the Acheans occupy Asia Minor , but the land was called Ionia ?
You've mixed everything up in your head !!!
Atheneans and thus Ionians were those that passed to Anatolia

Herodotus 1.145:
"As for the Ionians, the reason why they made twelve cities and would admit no more was in my judgment this: there were twelve divisions of them when they dwelt in the Peloponnese, just as there are twelve divisions of the Achaeans who drove the Ionians out--Pellene nearest to Sicyon; then Aegira and Aegae, where is the never-failing river Crathis, from which the river in Italy took its name; Bura and Helice, where the Ionians fled when they were worsted in battle by the Achaeans;"

Remember Acheans fight over Troy helped by Egyptians and Ethiopians !

LOL.... get facts correct. After the death of Hector, Memnon and his troops came to assist his uncle Priam.

Damn.. I just can't read this crap any more.. I've got a headache from going just half way through!!

Lakonian

03-07-2008, 12:08 PM

Sheesh i posted here a year ago almost.....well said Orphic. E malakia ine exthros tou Ellinismou

Demetrius Doukas

03-24-2008, 01:10 AM

Origins of the Ancient Greeks:

http://www.krassanakis.gr/greece.htm

Demetrius Doukas

03-24-2008, 01:12 AM

Hellenic origins of the Macedonians:

http://www.krassanakis.gr/macedonia.htm

Andrew

03-30-2008, 07:06 PM

Pre-Greek & Proto-Greek Hybridation

Pre-Greeks = Aegean populations (Pelasgoi,Cares,Leleges, ...)
Proto-Greeks = Indoeuropeans that brought the greek language (at lest the structure , because many words are pre-Greek)

chicagogeorge

06-18-2008, 06:54 PM

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/9935/greekgenealogyze0.jpg

chicagogeorge

06-18-2008, 07:16 PM

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8602/dannansez1.jpg

chicagogeorge

10-10-2008, 05:34 PM

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4273/protogreekarmenianod1.jpg

gmellos

10-15-2008, 01:14 PM

I believe the Ancient Hellenes where a combination of the Indo-European theory and Autochthony theory!!!

chicagogeorge

10-19-2008, 09:31 PM

^^

So do I....

Here is what Jonathon Hall says, from his book, Hellenicity: Between Ethnicity and Culture - 2002

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6985/jonathanhallcomingofthewc2.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5052/jonathanhallcomingoftheoi2.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9710/jonathanhallcomingoftherf1.jpg

Andrew

10-20-2008, 06:31 AM

Great find chicagogeorge !!!!

I'd say that these pages summarize petty well the research of ++200 years !!!