Is there anyone Greek? - Who is left?

[Reaper]

I would like to start an official thread to see who is claimed by other nations, having been seen by ourselves and indeed most of the actual people involved as Greek during their own lifetimes.

Ancient:

Alexander the Great - FYROMIAN/ Albanian.
Ptolomy, Aristotle, Philip II - basically any Greek Macedonian - FYROMIAN.
Cleopatra - Black African/ FYROMIAN.
Socrates - Black African.

Greek Revolution:

Basically every Klepht from the Pelops, and many others - Arvanites or to the Albanians ... - Pure Albanians:

Here are the ones on Wiki although unfortunately other more famous patriots of the revolution are claimed:

* Andreas Miaoulis, admiral and later politician - Albanian.
* Markos Botsaris, leader of Souliotes, defender of Messolonghi - Albanian.
* Laskarina Bouboulina, the only female member of Filiki Etaireia- Albanian.
* Nikolaos Krieziotis, leader of the Greek Revolution in Euboea- Albanian.
* Georgios Kountouriotis[15], leader of Hydra, admiral and briefly prime minister - Albanian.
* Xadziyiannis Mexis, leader of Spetses - Albanian.

Modern:

Giorgos Zorbas - FYROMian (AKA Georgi Chobra) (lol).
Pyrros Dimas - Albanian.

Who else is claimed by other nations?

[Euklid]

One thing is for sure, mate.

The Arvanites originally were Albanians.

And some of our Uprising leaders were indeed Arvanites.

These people were not what you call an Albanian nowadays. They share common origins but they have separated themselves from the Albanians.

Sure thing is that originally they were not Greeks, they became Greeks in the process.

So yes, some important figures of our independence were indeed non-Greeks ancestorily speaking.

Even Lord Byron an English man faught for ther Hellenic cause, and we still pay him tribute. They same we do for the rest non-Greeks.

However this does not mean that the Albanians can claim them as their own, cause simply they; the Arvanites do not allow it, because simply they do not feel as an Albanian feels.

It is very similar with the Hesiod story of Greko and Latin. They have the same father, but the ones that followed Hellenic manners came to be distinguished as Greeks while the rest who followed Etruscan or whatever manners came to be called as Latins.

Same goes for the Arvanites and the Albanians. The Arvanites followed Greek manners and the Albs followed Ottoman manners. Due to the lack of a centralized powerful Force.

[Reaper]

I am confused then after you said this. You see these Arvanites, I thought they originally came from Albania, inter-married with Greeks and became Greek in name, blood and culture so therefore, they are Greeks. Therefore these people are Greek, just as the slavs who settled in the peloponese have been lost, so were they. Throughout the War of independance greeks were fighting Albanians in the Peloponese, I am sure, if these people even felt any connection with Albania it was slight to say the least. These people had been Greek for centuries in some cases as most Arvanites came over early in the dark ages. So therefore, As the topic displays, this thread is about who people claim is not Greek, not who might have once been foreign 12 generations down the line before becoming Greek. Modern day Albanians claim these leaders of the Revolution indescriminately, even though these people became Greek in blood, culture ect and by the time of the revolution were definately Greeks. Even Kolokotronis has been claimed and he has no relation to these people. This is a problem.

The reason I started this thread was to identify who we have left and who has been claimed so I can draw up a list of how Hellenic history and culture is being undermined by Slav/ Albanian / Turkish nationals.

[Spartan]

Socrates- By the Blacks claiming since he was born even Africa(the continent and in a Greek colony) that he was black!(of course as we all know everyone from that continent is black):laugh:

[Reaper]

OK, added thanks!

[Euklid]

Reaper, why are you confused man?, we say exactly the same thing.

[Reaper]

Ok, I see you have edited, it wasn't 100% clear before what you said file mou.

[Euklid]

Yap, ok sorry bout that.

[tieyetos]

the only thing slavs/pseudomacedonians brought to macedonia is simply stupidity.even the gypsies have more prite than the pseudomacedonians. gypsies know their haritage n do not steal someone elses as their owen.

[Reaper]

I also admire the Italians for not claiming Archimedes and others like him as Italians.

[Euklid]

They would if they could.

The Italians are perhaps the slyest bastards.

How can they claim Archimedes when they consider the Italian South as Afro-Gypsie?

And when in every single account Archimedes is mentioned along with the term Magna Graecia?

But generally i like them too.

[Reaper]

I say I ''like'' the Italians only for that fact and also their designs and style. Having dated an Italian girl for 5 years, having had to beat the **** out of two neopolitans who held her at knife point in Naples, having an old man trying to touch my dick in Cassino Train Station and then offer me money for a blowjob when i slapped his face, having wittnessed every type of theft known to man being committed by Italians and seen how they behave in Mykonos and Ios as well as many other incidents, I have changed my mind.

[Euklid]

I have some great stories about the Italians as well.

Generally i like them, for all that you said, their style and their designs, they do have finetsa.

But i had some huge "bad" experiences from them as well.

[Tsontos]

One thing is for sure, mate.

The Arvanites originally were Albanians.

And some of our Uprising leaders were indeed Arvanites.

These people were not what you call an Albanian nowadays. They share common origins but they have separated themselves from the Albanians.

Sure thing is that originally they were not Greeks, they became Greeks in the process.

So yes, some important figures of our independence were indeed non-Greeks ancestorily speaking.

Even Lord Byron an English man faught for ther Hellenic cause, and we still pay him tribute. They same we do for the rest non-Greeks.

However this does not mean that the Albanians can claim them as their own, cause simply they; the Arvanites do not allow it, because simply they do not feel as an Albanian feels.

It is very similar with the Hesiod story of Greko and Latin. They have the same father, but the ones that followed Hellenic manners came to be distinguished as Greeks while the rest who followed Etruscan or whatever manners came to be called as Latins.

Same goes for the Arvanites and the Albanians. The Arvanites followed Greek manners and the Albs followed Ottoman manners. Due to the lack of a centralized powerful Force.

The only origins shared by Arvanites with Albanians is that they were the Albanised Greeks who inhabited Soutehrn Albania since ancient times. Albanians will have you beleive that every ethnic Greek in Albania is a Hellenized Albanian. History shows otherwise

[Euklid]

I find that very hard to believe Voulgaroktone.

I find it very hard to believe that these people were Albanised Greeks. Hellenized Albanians, yes, but not the other way around.

If that was the case, our historians would have recorded it.

[Orphic_Hymn]

If that was the case, our historians would have recorded it.

You can find an interesting read HERE (http://cds.lib.auth.gr/submit/archive/NPA/npa-2004-7773.pdf)

[Euklid]

Re sy Orphea ekei pou leei oti oi Arvanites xorizontai stous gkegkhdes kai stous toskides, mipos milaei gia olokliro to alvaniko ethnos?

Kai stin ousia to vivlio tou prospathei na mas peisei oti oi alvanoi einai oso ellines oso oi ellines?

Btw, endiaferon vivlio fainetai alla to arthro moy ta mperdepse ligo.

Pou ta vriskeis re sy ola touta? istorikos eisai?

[Hermes]

The only origins shared by Arvanites with Albanians is that they were the Albanised Greeks who inhabited Soutehrn Albania since ancient times. Albanians will have you beleive that every ethnic Greek in Albania is a Hellenized Albanian. History shows otherwise

:dry: So is there any prove? Linguistic, phonetic , tradition (expect religion) or other....?
Or its just the short way to close all other arguments?? :clap2:
Anyway their names and language are still present.How they are called too. Also we know how were they called as people or as tribes when they were called to populate Greece by Latin Lords of Greece. So the question of 1 million $ is : When did they albanised having present ( as u say albs came in Balkans in 11th century) that they came to Greece from at least 13th century?????
Could this hellenic culture be albanised in 150 years from some soldiers(bcz u pretend they were soldiers from Caucasus) Is there any document in history that speaks about this Population moved from Causasus in Balcans??

How was it possible that this soldiers founded such a (let say ) big nation spreaded from Nissus in South Epirus(cham people) , when we know that they all times have been in wars and their homes burned by every invasor????

[Orphic_Hymn]

Re sy Orphea ekei pou leei oti oi Arvanites xorizontai stous gkegkhdes kai stous toskides, mipos milaei gia olokliro to alvaniko ethnos?

Kai stin ousia to vivlio tou prospathei na mas peisei oti oi alvanoi einai oso ellines oso oi ellines?

Btw, endiaferon vivlio fainetai alla to arthro moy ta mperdepse ligo.

Pou ta vriskeis re sy ola touta? istorikos eisai?

Na sou pw thn alh8eia den to'xw diabasei to sugkekrimeno biblio, mono tou Kargakou "Albanoi Arbanites Ellhnes" exw gia to 8ema.
An kai ontws fainetai pws tous xwrizei se Gkekhdes kai Toskhdes kai ara Albaniko fulo, parousiazei anafores pou uposthrizoun thn Ellhnikothta tous. px. Stanford, Gilleron ktl, kai anaferei ton Strabwna kai "Hpeirwtika e8nh".

Opws sou eipa den to'xw diabasei, alla apo anafores pou exw dei online, fainetai pws uposthrizei thn Ellhnikh katagwgh. Isws kapoios allos filos na'xei parapanw plhrofories gia to biblio.

Istorikos :lol: kalooo.

[Spartan]

I also admire the Italians for not claiming Archimedes and others like him as Italians.


The reality of the matter is that they UNLIKE the Skops would actually have a legitimate claim to him. We all know that in Southern Italy, from just north of Naples all the way and icluding Sicily all the Italians have a saying "Una fazza, una razza!" They are all proud of their Greek ancestry. Until the time when Mussolini took over Italy it was mandatory for the Italians to learn both Greek and Italian in their schools. It was Mussonlini who stopped it. As far as I am concerned all the Southern Italians are our direct cousins. I know two Sicilian guys who own a Bar/Restaurant here and get this they come from a small town about an hour and a half north of Agrigento called NICOSIA! They are always talking about how proud they are of their Greek heritage.

So as long as the Italians recognise the fact that they also have Greek descent UNLIKE the Skops I would have no problem with such a claim. As it was always called Magna Graecia!

Now as for bad experiences in Naples I believe everyone has had them, I know I have. But I will say the majority of the trouble makers there are not Neapolitans but others. This is more so true around the Train station where every vagrant lives outside in the parking lots and grassy areas between the station and the bus terminal. I lived in Italy for over 5 years and loved every minute of it, I even went back 3 years ago and spent 2 weeks going from the north all the way to Sicily. Pordenone, Aviano(small town north of Pordenone), Venice, Florence, Rome, Naples, Agrigento, the entire eastern and central part of Sicily and then to Bari across to Patras.

I found the most crime and worst area was in Naples and Rome, as for the rest absolutely no problems.