The Louvre welcomes Alexander the Great

[Tsontos]

LOUVRE TO WELCOME ALEXANDER THE GREAT
Monday, 15 January 2007


A major exhibit on Macedonia and Alexander the Great is in the works, slated to be presented at Paris’ Louvre Museum in 2010-2011. The exhibit is being co-organized by the Greek Antiquities Ephorates of Macedonia and Thrace. Organizers are hoping that the exhibit will be a good response to all those in Skopje who insist on altering Greece’s history.

The initiative for the exhibit belongs to the Parisian museum. Last year, the exhibit’s French curator met with officials at the Archaeological Museum of Thessaloniki since most of the exhibits will originate from northern Greece. The exhibits will include architectural portions of the Palace at Vergina, remnants from the grave of Phillipos II and other Macedonian graves and significant findings from other regions which will be presented together with a collection of Macedonian findings already in the Louvre’s possession since 1917.

The French museum is considering this exhibit one of major importance. It will allocate its largest periodical exhibition halls measuring a total of 1,200 square meters.

DF: One of the Louvre's most prized posession is the Greek statue The Winged Victory of Samothrace, also called Nike of Samothrace.

[louvre.fr]


http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1412/louvrend4.png

[Spartan]

"Organizers are hoping that the exhibit will be a good response to all those in Skopje who insist on altering Greece’s history."


AWESOME!!:clap2: :clap2: :clapping:

[Spartan]

Voulgaroktonos,

what is the source for that article?? Of course this has to be spread in every forum, especially the Skop ones!

[DeanHellene]

Excellent! Why can't I be in Paris at that time? :mad:

[Tsontos]

Voulgaroktonos,

what is the source for that article?? Of course this has to be spread in every forum, especially the Skop ones!

here there are several peices in regards to Alexander on the Louvre's site:

The Near East following the conquests of Alexander the Great | Musée du Louvre (http://www.louvre.fr/llv/oeuvres/detail_periode.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673 227910&CURRENT_LLV_CHRONOLOGIE%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673227 883&CURRENT_LLV_DEP%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474395181111&CURRENT_LLV_PERIODE%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673227910&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=9852723696500939&bmUID=1169114499656&bmLocale=en)

In the countries of the Levant, the peace that had lasted since the founding of the Persian empire and the arrival of the Greeks under Alexander and his successors, was a source of enduring prosperity. In the hinterland, extending towards Arabia, the inhabitants of the oases of Palmyra, Teima, and Yemen controlled the caravan trade between India and the Mediterranean. New ethnic, political, and religious groupings emerged, links were established between the Mediterranean and the Arabian interior, and Greco-Oriental culture was widely adopted, as witnessed by the monuments at Petra and Palmyra.


The entry of Alexander the Great into Babylon | Musée du Louvre (http://www.louvre.fr/llv/activite/detail_parcours.jsp?CURRENT_LLV_PARCOURS%3C%3Ecnt_ id=10134198673407387&CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673407455&CURRENT_LLV_CHEMINEMENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673407 455&bmUID=1169114499640&bmLocale=en)

Crossing the Granicus and The Battle of Arbela illustrate the famous battles between the Greeks and the Persians




Also there is a permanent exhbition in the British Museum (where the original Rosetta Stone is kept) which refers to Alexander and his Greek empire and the Hellenistic age constantly.

[Tsontos]

here is the article link from daily frappe

www.dailyfrappe.com - LOUVRE TO WELCOME ALEXANDER THE GREAT (http://www.dailyfrappe.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2292&Itemid=59)

[Istor]

SlavoSkopians of maknuts do know about exhibition pretty well.

[Euklid]

I will be in Paris/Montmartre for 4 days the 3rd till the 7th of February.

If there is any custom-pictures you need, let me know. Anything relative i will find, i will make a thread about it.

[Amyntas]

Euklid:

"A major exhibit on Macedonia and Alexander the Great is in the works, slated to be presented at Paris� Louvre Museum in 2010-2011"

:)

[Euklid]

:) Ofc man, i saw that, am pretty sure that there will be certain historical monuments of Macedonia.

Does anyone have any idea, of the Louvre or the various museums around the area.

Am looking at the travel guide atm and i have come across various Ancient Greek artifacts, some of them will propably be from Macedonia.

Not just in the louvre but around as well.

[Spartan]

Euklid,

"of the Louvre"

Get advanced tickets otherwise you will waste around 2-3 hours waiting in line. I made the mistake before!

There are many Greek artifacts there, even possibly some from Macedonia. If there are Macedonian artifacts there I am certain they probably mention "Greek" on the descriptions. Maybe some photos of those artifacts?

[Euklid]

I have got tickets already, daily for all the museums access :)

I think in the Louvre not all items are allowed to be photographed, but everything that is allowed i will certainly take some photos.

Thanks for the advice Spartan.

[Amyntas]

In case you are a student:

I think a friend of mine told me that students can visit the Louvre for free (you just need your student ID).

[Euklid]

Yap, i have a valid student id.

Thats great, even though ive bought the tickets already. I bought the one-day pass for all the museums.

But anyway, cheers guys.

[Cadmus]

Fact1 : Fyrom government is wrong stating Macedonia as a whole and its own

Fact2 : Fyrom made out a fairly big part of the ancient Empire..as well as Greek Macedonia of course, but since the royal tombs are in Vergina,Pella it is so easy to say all artefacts are Greek , any idea my Greek friends how much is found in Fyrom of Alexanders era...and still is under the ground?

Wouldn''t it be righteouss to mention also Fyrom Macedonia as part of the original empire?? because that's historically right...isn't it...before the whole world visiting the Louvre thinks Alexander's empire has as much in common with the Greeks in the deep south...as in the real Macedonians in northern Greece and southwestern Fyrom..

I know a lot of Greeks are pissed off on the whole Fyrom subject...but enough is enough...get a life!

[Slayer]

You spineless little insect!

You come to to a Greek forum and have the nerve to tell us to get a life?

You have a good long think about what you said

[Cadmus]

I have more spine then you can ever imagine!
Btw someone calling himself Slayer is a prophecy for some severe mental issues...and as a matter of fact ...i fully concur with Fyrom government absurdity...but as i have said before Southwestern Fyrom was ancient Macedonia to..fact, fact fact...so why does all the credit has to go to the Greeks...Greek Macedonia and Sout western Fyrom were ancient Macedonia not the south of Greece or Crete or Cyprus...again get a life!

[Cadmus]

Btw i have missed your signature! nice one "long live Satan"

GET SOME HELP PSYCHIATRIC ONE!!!

I hope i haven't offended my Greek friends here , but lately i seem to encounter a lot of anger on this site...which actually frightens me..having said my mothers family is considering themselves as 'lost Macedonian Greeks" especially with a Hellenic background...but all the generalisations towards all Fyrom inhabitants are scaring me on the behalf of my mothers family sides...

Wouldn't it be much better.(acceptable) to blaim Fyrom government for it's accusations instead of the whole of Fyrom's inhabitants especially considering that there are still a lot of ethnic Hellenes living in the South-West of Fyrom that feel related with the Macedonian Greeks...

Just my 2 cents of advise...

[Euklid]

Cadmus, this issue is more complicated than you have it be.

1) Macedonia as a logo belongs to the Greek Governement, and it includes copyrighted products(e.g. Halva), urls, and property titles.

2) Alexander was the one who created officially the Hellenic ethnos, during his time the koine was invented and it substituted the primitive dialects in the mjor cities. Our official ethnogenesis took place under Alexander. Ofc, the ethnogenesis had begun a lot before with the Oracle system and the Olympic Games, but officially it was completed under Alexander.

3) The Greek Macedonians outnumber all the others, therefore if Democracy should be put in use, then the whole issue will come to an end.

Because 3 million people do not wish to be equated with 1mil. Slavs.


Your attitude is a well known attitude to the Greeks, the attitude of ignorance. Next time please state your case more aptly.

[Orphic_Hymn]

I have got tickets already, daily for all the museums access :)

I think in the Louvre not all items are allowed to be photographed, but everything that is allowed i will certainly take some photos.

Thanks for the advice Spartan.

A bit off topic.. but I've heard of a statue in the Louvre depicting 'EYKAIRIA' (bueatiful woman with hair only in front and in the back her head is bald.. related to our saying "you grab 'Eukairia' by the hair") but never been able to find any info..

Do me a favor and ask about it, cause I'm really interested.

[Euklid]

I will Orphic, i will try to get pics as well, in 10 days .

Anything Greek related, i will at least get the legal postcards, if not able for pics.

[Slayer]

I have more spine then you can ever imagine!
Btw someone calling himself Slayer is a prophecy for some severe mental issues...and as a matter of fact ...i fully concur with Fyrom government absurdity...but as i have said before Southwestern Fyrom was ancient Macedonia to..fact, fact fact...so why does all the credit has to go to the Greeks...Greek Macedonia and Sout western Fyrom were ancient Macedonia not the south of Greece or Crete or Cyprus...again get a life!

If you had a brain you would not be questioning our devotion to our past, our love for Macedonia and you wouldn't be coming on this site asking us to get a life. We are not one, I have no affection for your people, I do not agree with your views and I don't think I need to be told by a Slav what I or any other Greek should be thinking about any issue on Macedonia.
I don't care how much of Ancient macedonia lies in Skopia, the fact is that your people came 1000 years after the Ancient Greek kingdom ruled most of the known world so be proud of what your people have achieved since there arrival, but do not draw any connection to Ancient Macedonia.
Now, I am going to sacrafice babies and drink the blood of young virgins :)

[Slayer]

[QUOTE=Cadmus;13852]Btw i have missed your signature! nice one "long live Satan"

GET SOME HELP PSYCHIATRIC ONE!!!


I tried but the voices in my head kept asking me to come back and recruit you Cadmus as one of Satan's Soldiers..

sunioj, sunioj, sunioj, sunioj, sunioj :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Tsontos]

Fact1 : Fyrom government is wrong stating Macedonia as a whole and its own

Fact2 : Fyrom made out a fairly big part of the ancient Empire..as well as Greek Macedonia of course, but since the royal tombs are in Vergina,Pella it is so easy to say all artefacts are Greek , any idea my Greek friends how much is found in Fyrom of Alexanders era...and still is under the ground?

Wouldn''t it be righteouss to mention also Fyrom Macedonia as part of the original empire?? because that's historically right...isn't it...before the whole world visiting the Louvre thinks Alexander's empire has as much in common with the Greeks in the deep south...as in the real Macedonians in northern Greece and southwestern Fyrom..

I know a lot of Greeks are pissed off on the whole Fyrom subject...but enough is enough...get a life!


yeah the Monastiri region mainly.

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/7346/maked362hp9.gif


I dont see what your getting so upset about. Yes geographically FYROM makes up something less than 10% of ancient Macedonia. So what exactly is your point and why should Greeks "get a life"?

[Spartan]

[QUOTE Fact2 : Fyrom made out a fairly big part of the ancient Empire..as well as Greek Macedonia of course, but since the royal tombs are in Vergina,Pella it is so easy to say all artefacts are Greek , any idea my Greek friends how much is found in Fyrom of Alexanders era...and still is under the ground?

Wouldn''t it be righteouss to mention also Fyrom Macedonia as part of the original empire?? because that's historically right...isn't it...before the whole world visiting the Louvre thinks Alexander's empire has as much in common with the Greeks in the deep south...as in the real Macedonians in northern Greece and southwestern Fyrom..

I know a lot of Greeks are pissed off on the whole Fyrom subject...but enough is enough...get a life![/QUOTE]

Cadmus,

Let me start with FACT2:

Only the Lyncestian and Monastiri part as Voulgaroktonos has pointed out lay within the borders of the Modern Republic. As for what is found in FYROM archaeologically everything points toward it being Greek. Yes there is still much to be excavated but everything that has come to light has been Greek. Furthermore, it is not only in Pella but all the Ancient Macedonian cities and villages that have been uncovered in both FYROM and Greece are Greek also.

Now as for your last statement.

Everyone acknowledges that part of FYROM lays withing the borders of the Ancient Kingdom. Where the problem occurs is that the government and many of the neo-nationalist make the claim that ALL of FYROM lays within the borders of the Ancient Kingdom and this is just not true. Now as for your comment about the Greeks of the south you are quite misled.

The only claims that are made by the Greeks of the deep south are that the Macedonians were Dorians and that the Macedonians remained where the Dorians originated from. Furthermore since the Ancient Macedonians were Greek then all Greeks have the right to claim Ancient Macedonia as part of their history. Now this is different than making the claim that they are descended from the Ancient Macedonians. Only the Greek who originated from Macedonia have that right, just like only the Greeks who originated from Laconia(Sparta) have a right to claim the Spartans.

Finally as for the Macedonians from Southwest FYROM, you said yourself your family has always claimed a Hellenic identity. So you should realize that we do not include you and others with the same beliefs in the list of FYROM who are propogandist. We accept you as being a fellow Hellene and we have always fought for the recognition of the Greeks in that part of FYROM. There are several threads in this forum on the Greeks of FYROM and how the FYROM government and extremist refuse to acknowledge that fact. So if you are a Hellene from Macedonia then you also have that right to claim the Macedonian heritage along with the Greeks from Macedonia. Yourselves and no one else has the right to call themselves "Ethnic Macedonians" because that is just a falacy.

So we accept you and acknowledge your people(Hellenes from FYROM) as being part of our Ethnos, but we reject the rest of the FYROMs as being part of it, or them having the right to call themselves Macedonians.

This issue is mainly an argument over the right of a Slavic people whos country only lays withing 10-20% of the Ancient kingdom to usurp a name that has always been recognized and acknowledged as being Greek. It is the neo-nationalist from FYROM who try to monopolize the name and make the claims that the Greeks are Africans from Ethiopia and that the modern Greeks are nothing but Turks, Albs, Roma, and Slavs with nothing of the Ancient Greeks remaining in our genetics or culture.

These are just some of the reasons the Greeks are refusing to allow FYROMs to get involved. There government makes claims that they have nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians but at the same time they show their true colors. Ex. Renaming their airport in Skopje to Alexander the Great. This of course is just one example out of many I could have used.

No one accepts archaeology that is run by such a state. Because it is accepted that it contains vast amounts of nationalisic propoganda behind their findings.

[Spartan]

Cadmus,

Here is the reality of Archaeology in FYROM.

from a MAK site in the UK.

"Macedonia 's archeological map - three volumes of which have been published by the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts - has recorded over 5,000 archeological sites in Macedonia. Very few of these are open to visitors, while the others have only been identified. The law does not allow unauthorized individuals to conduct archeological research without the approval and consent of the relevant institutions, which is the Republic Bureau for Cultural Monuments' Protection and local municipal bureaus for monuments' protection. Individual research, which is an adventure for anyone, is possible in coordination with these institutions and with their consent."

This is not necessarrily talking about excavations(digging) but about research of the findings, etc. Anyone in Greece can go to the correct ministries of Culture(there are several, with one being the Bronze age to classical and hellenistic periods/ 2nd Ephoria with the strongest and biggest being the Byzantine ministry) and research information. You can also go to the several foreign run institutions of archaeology in Greece, such as the American School of Archaeology and the British School of Archaeology or the Australian School of Archaeology, even the French Institute of Archaeology of Athens and do research WITHOUT NEEDING approval of the Greek government. Now if you wanted to perform an excavation then yes you will need to provide your credentials and follow the proper chanels do perform the excavations.


The FYROM government in many ways in still "Communist Block" in a sense!

[Cadmus]

Yes Spartan and all others i agree! except for Slayerman of course:dry:

I should had ststed my self more aptly...

But what i was really trying to adress is that the many artefacts i have witnessed with my own eyes...( a vast amount of battle helmets, swords, kraters, etc.... was truly amazing....but they seem not to appear in the Lycnidos museum but in a depot underneath it ...in the dark ...and not being displayed at all...No those artefacts should not be displayed at Skopje for my beliefs...don't trust them...

As in the necropolis death masks found in South -western Fyrom , one is in Sofia ??? and the other in Belgrade?? Thracie and Dardania/Dacia what do they have in common with Hellenicity...nothing...

There is still so much valuable information beneath the soil in the south-west..
But because there is no money...there is no chance..really frustrating..

Let's imagine the south-western Fyrom part actually belonging to Greece, then a decent excavation would had taken place..and we all would had known a tad more about our Culture..

Now a lot of thieves are robbong it's artefacts and they all end up in Austria.France etc in the hands of wealthy collectors that due to their own succes in business for example want to identify with a great culture like the ancient hellenic one...:mad:

But even the Fyrom police is not taking apropriate counter measures...

Btw how do you Greeks feel about your countrys culture being displayed in France the Louvre! i do not understand!

Isn't that the same like going to a Athens museum and learning about the french renaissance?

And what are all the Greek artefacts still doing in the British museum?
Like the rosetta stone and many others...it's wrong...and not even theirs..
They should display Celtic huts and swords..something of their own great past...:unsure:

I hope no harms done ...and again i apologise for insulting maybe...

And thenks for the acception of our kinhood with yours..

All the best.

[Cadmus]

Hi Spartan and Volgouranoktos!

One thing i stiil don't understand: the Lychnidos area and Trebenishte site approx. 10/15 miles north-east of Lycnidos bares a ancient necropolis, where golden masks and other artefacts had been discovered with a clear Hellenic influence if not 100% at all. those were dated from Vth century B.C.?

And the fundation of the Samuil castle has shown a ancient Hellenic castle underneath it claiming it to be from Philip 2nd era..also another necropolis had been found at the exact same spot with a golden burial mask and golden glove etc.

But the map from Volgarounoktos shows that area not incorporated within the ancient borders date 362 B.C. how is this possible..i have seen another map that had the whole area suurounding Lychnidos following in a south-western route up to the Lyncestis area...now reading your previous excellent post Ptolemey about the Mollosian Ethne and their area of existence (the Lyncestae forefathers) could this be the mistake i'm making? Is the Lychnidos area a Mollosian one? also with a clear Hellenic background but in fact at those times say Vth century B.C. not linked with the Macedonian empire only after the marriage of Eurydice and Amyntas?

This would make sense right?

All the best..

[Amyntas]

Cadmus

voulgaroktonos' map shows the border in 362 b.c. Lychnidos was founded in hellenistic times and the area was conquered by Philipp II. in 355 b.c.

Before Philipp the lake of Lychnidos (Ochrid) was illyrian, thats why the map doesnt include this area in the ancient macedonian kingdom.

[Cadmus]

Thanks Giourkas!

I'm not allowed to post links, but on Wikipedia the Mollossian chapter i saw a map that gave the location of the Mollossians in pre Macedonian times,it showed a habitation area from the south-east of modern Albania up to the Prespa lake area in today's Fyrom and of course Greek Epirus..? can it be the case they actually were Mollosians in the area?

Wait here it is:
\
Image:ChaoniaMolossisThesprotia.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ChaoniaMolossisThesprotia.jpg)

[Spartan]

There are varying maps as to the borders of the old Macedonian kingdom. The maps are made by different people interpreting the available information differently. Of course the boundaries on maps of ancient areas are just "generalizations" on the most part with the rest of the boundaries being the known cities, mountain ranges and rivers.

Now as for the Mollosians It seems highly unlikely. According to Strabo they are located centrally around Dodona. This places them much further south than the Lyncestis. Now one must remember when dealing with the various tribes of the regions of Macedonia, Thessaly and Epirus is that they are primarily seperated by the mountain ranges. Thus each tribe would be located within a certain valley. That is what kept the Ancient Macedonians seperated from the rest of the Greeks for the longest time.

I will do some research to see what else I can find.

[Spartan]

"As in the necropolis death masks found in South -western Fyrom , one is in Sofia ??? and the other in Belgrade?? Thracie and Dardania/Dacia what do they have in common with Hellenicity...nothing..."

Do you mean the mask posted below?
The first two are from FYROM

The rest are from Mycenae

Marked as Mycenaean2-4


This is the case because of Mycenaean influence during the Bronze age in both Epirus and Macedonia. It is thought by some that there was very little influence by the Mycenaeans in Macedonia, but it seem there is much more. Just like their tombs!

[Spartan]

"Let's imagine the south-western Fyrom part actually belonging to Greece, then a decent excavation would had taken place..and we all would had known a tad more about our Culture.."

I totally agree!



"Now a lot of thieves are robbong it's artefacts and they all end up in Austria.France etc in the hands of wealthy collectors that due to their own succes in business for example want to identify with a great culture like the ancient hellenic one...

But even the Fyrom police is not taking apropriate counter measures..."

Yes it is a shame, but unfortunately it is also the government which doesn't care!



"Btw how do you Greeks feel about your countrys culture being displayed in France the Louvre! i do not understand!

Isn't that the same like going to a Athens museum and learning about the french renaissance?

And what are all the Greek artefacts still doing in the British museum?
Like the rosetta stone and many others...it's wrong...and not even theirs..
They should display Celtic huts and swords..something of their own great past... "



Now you have brought up two seperate issues.

The first on sharing.

We think it is a good thing so that the entire world gets a chance to enjoy what our country has to offer. Many people around the world don't get the chance to go to Greece so this is one way to bring a little of Greece to them. There are many museums around the world that have implemented a "Loan" policy just for that reason.


Now as for the artifacts that were taken from Greece while occupied by the Ottomans that is a completely different subject.

As far as I am concerned many of those objects should be returned to the country they originated in. Main case in point, the Parthenon Marbles(Elgin). Here is a case where Elgin had NO PERMISSION to remove anything from the Parthenon itself, only to make molds of what was on the structure and collect loose pieces laying around it. This is clearly a theft. Through his removal of the freezes from the Parthenon he also damaged the structure itself by using large two-man saws to remove large chunks of it.

As for the Rosetta Stone that originated in Alexandria Egypt and it should be returned. Unfortunately if England, France, Germany and the U.S all returned the majority of their Greek, Italian, Egyptian and Mesopotamian artifacts to their place of origin then all the western museums would be EMPTY! So that will unfortunately never happen.

Now getting back to the point at hand. I believe that the objects should be returned, but from time to time be loaned to the various museum to help promote cross-cultural awareness and understanding. This is the only way for all to come out as winners and no one has any room to complain.



"I hope no harms done ...and again i apologise for insulting maybe...

And thenks for the acception of our kinhood with yours..

All the best."

No need for the apologies, and your welcome!

[Cadmus]

Thanks Spartan!

Both masks coming from the Trebenishte necropolis were excavated by Bulgarians and Serbians, both when Serbia respectivly Bulgaria annexed Fyrom
and took them straight to their own musea...both from Vth century B.C.

another was found in 2002 by Pasko Kuzman in the Lychnidos necropolis , underneath the Samuil fortress which has the remains of an Hellenic fortress
probably from 4th century B.C. a golden glove and mask.

Richard Bangs Adventures Presented by Yahoo! (http://adventures.yahoo.com/b/adventures/adventures7228;_ylt=AkjpChMUoQD_GQwf)

Culture - Republic of Ìacedonia (http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=4829)

P.S. dont mind the other statements in it just look at the mask and glove! it is purely posted by me for the mystery Hellenic civilisation living there from Vth century B.C. (who were they?)



Point is there was a Hellenic royalty/noblemen in the Lychnidos/Trebenishte area around V-IV century B.C. but if not Molossian nor Lyncestae which were connected with eachother, which Hellenic community was inhabiting the area?

Certainly not Illyrian since the masks you have posted above are definately Hellenic?????

[Spartan]

Your right about not reading the article. Bangs has no idea about history. The guy is only trying to make a name for himself there!

Alexander the Great never entered the Olympics it was Alexander the 1st. And the other comments are completely unsupported. Now as for the Archaeology part, it is quite good, except it refuses to mention the archaeological ties with other Greeks.


I don't really think there is a mysterious Hellenic culture there, I just think that they were either the remnants of a Mycenaean group or that they just were another Greek people who held on to Mycenaean traditions and culture. I am definitely interested in finding out more.

[Amyntas]

Your right about not reading the article. Bangs has no idea about history. The guy is only trying to make a name for himself there!

Alexander the Great never entered the Olympics it was Alexander the 1st. And the other comments are completely unsupported. Now as for the Archaeology part, it is quite good, except it refuses to mention the archaeological ties with other Greeks.


I don't really think there is a mysterious Hellenic culture there, I just think that they were either the remnants of a Mycenaean group or that they just were another Greek people who held on to Mycenaean traditions and culture. I am definitely interested in finding out more.

While reading Otto Hoffmann's book i noticed a part where he mentions that 40.000 mycenaeans settled down in macedonia after Mycenae was destroyed. Probably those masks are remnants of those settler who Philipp gave land in newly conquered places (lynchnidos?)

[Ptolemy]

P.S. dont mind the other statements in it just look at the mask and glove! it is purely posted by me for the mystery Hellenic civilisation living there from Vth century B.C. (who were they?)



Point is there was a Hellenic royalty/noblemen in the Lychnidos/Trebenishte area around V-IV century B.C. but if not Molossian nor Lyncestae which were connected with eachother, which Hellenic community was inhabiting the area?

Certainly not Illyrian since the masks you have posted above are definately Hellenic?????

I have already pointed out in my earlier post, a Corinthian origin of the royal house in Lyncestis. The members of the royal house were descedants of the Bacchiads, exiled royalties coming from Corinth. Lyncestian royal members were proud of their origins.

"These people, I say, were not ruled by men of native stock; and the Lyncestae became subject to Arrabaeus, who was of the stock of the Bacchiads (Eurydice, the mother of Philip, Amyntas' son, was Arrabaeus' daughter's daughter and Sirra was his daughter);"

[Strabo, 7.8.326]

While reading Otto Hoffmann's book i noticed a part where he mentions that 40.000 mycenaeans settled down in macedonia after Mycenae was destroyed. Probably those masks are remnants of those settler who Philipp gave land in newly conquered places (lynchnidos?)

There is a topic about this. There was also a population from Euboea, resettling to Macedonia again during Alexander I reign.Mycenean population settles in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/ancient-macedonian-history/1376-mycenean-population-settles-macedonia.html) Can you add Giourka more infos coming from Hoffmann about the issue?

Mycenaean cementary in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/archeological-artifactual-macedonian-history/961-mycenaean-cementary-macedonia.html?highlight=Mycenaean)

You could also check the page of prof. Elias Kapetanopoulos (http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/MakEpigr.htm) about Mycenaean influence to parts of ancient Macedonia.

[Cadmus]

Yes i know Ptolemey!, but Luncestae area was further down sout-west from Lychnidos and Trebenishte! some 20 miles...
And only Lyncestis small area is incorporated in the map after the incorporation of Lyncestis with the original Macedonian empire, due to the marriage of Eurydice and Amyntas, but what if were talking about a whole other society..pre-dating the Lyncestian one ...perhaps even the Molossian Ethne..who knows!

This is truly mid-boggling you guys!

This could mean that there was a Hellenic basis in the area of Lychnidos
long before III century B.C.!

Or as Ptolemey pointed out, they could be from the Corinthian league, but then again c14 carbon dating already pointed out the origin from V century B.C....This would certainly need proper research and funding...Fyrom governmental help?:rolleyes: Hey it is on the UNESCO worldheritage list!:)
hmmmm....wait they haven't produced zilch! no funding eather....who's gonna help???

[Flipper]

This could mean that there was a Hellenic basis in the area of Lychnidos
long before III century B.C.!

Or as Ptolemey pointed out, they could be from the Corinthian league, but then again c14 carbon dating already pointed out the origin from V century B.C....This would certainly need proper research and funding...Fyrom governmental help?:rolleyes: Hey it is on the UNESCO worldheritage list!:)
hmmmm....wait they haven't produced zilch! no funding eather....who's gonna help???

Corynthians settled in Macedonia (Chalkidiki, Mygdonia) quite early which means there could be corynthian influence if not settlement there.

By the way, the name Alexander is Corynthian ;) The first man called Alexander was the 9th King of Corynth that ruled the 11th century BC.

[Ervald]

There are varying maps as to the borders of the old Macedonian kingdom. The maps are made by different people interpreting the available information differently. Of course the boundaries on maps of ancient areas are just "generalizations" on the most part with the rest of the boundaries being the known cities, mountain ranges and rivers.

Now as for the Mollosians It seems highly unlikely. According to Strabo they are located centrally around Dodona. This places them much further south than the Lyncestis. Now one must remember when dealing with the various tribes of the regions of Macedonia, Thessaly and Epirus is that they are primarily seperated by the mountain ranges. Thus each tribe would be located within a certain valley. That is what kept the Ancient Macedonians seperated from the rest of the Greeks for the longest time.

I will do some research to see what else I can find.

Moloset are now gathered in Tepelene region of south albania.

as for the helmets..hmm the Illyrians were slight different from the greek ones, the illyrians had wide open face helmet while greeks had more complicated for whole face, nose and neck protection.
But anyway, there are celtic and all kind of helmets in albania, does that mean that they lived there? lol

[Cadmus]

Maybe , also important to mention is that in some of the Fyrom tombs ancient glass artefacts and products of importance were fround from the Egyptian Nile area, which concludes that a trading relation existed between the latter.

I'll post a link, if i can find it any time soon..

[Spartan]

"as for the helmets..hmm the Illyrians were slight different from the greek ones, the illyrians had wide open face helmet while greeks had more complicated for whole face, nose and neck protection.
But anyway, there are celtic and all kind of helmets in albania, does that mean that they lived there? lol"


You are correct about the helmets. There have also been Illyrian "Styled" helmets found further south in Greece also. I believe that every soldier wore the type of helmet they felt the most comfortable with and there was no set standard for them.

As for the Celtic type helmets there are two possibilities. The first being they ended up there throught invasion. It is well known that the Celts invaded many parts of the Balkans. Now remember that the Celts were not just on the British isles, but they were spread all over Northern and Central Europe and along all of the Danube.

The second could be through trade.

[Ervald]

"as for the helmets..hmm the Illyrians were slight different from the greek ones, the illyrians had wide open face helmet while greeks had more complicated for whole face, nose and neck protection.
But anyway, there are celtic and all kind of helmets in albania, does that mean that they lived there? lol"


You are correct about the helmets. There have also been Illyrian "Styled" helmets found further south in Greece also. I believe that every soldier wore the type of helmet they felt the most comfortable with and there was no set standard for them.

As for the Celtic type helmets there are two possibilities. The first being they ended up there throught invasion. It is well known that the Celts invaded many parts of the Balkans. Now remember that the Celts were not just on the British isles, but they were spread all over Northern and Central Europe and along all of the Danube.

The second could be through trade.

or third... Shkodra (located in north albania) for some time had not only Illyrians but also celts populating it.

but anyway it's just trading and stuff like that, cause there can be found also ancient greek plates, small scluptures etc

[Spartan]

"or third... Shkodra (located in north albania) for some time had not only Illyrians but also celts populating it."

Sorry you are correct, a third, which is a combination of 1 and 2.

[akritas]

Moloset are now gathered in Tepelene region of south albania.
When you mean Moloset mean the tribe of Molossians ?:wacko:

[Cadmus]

Center for Archaeological Research | Archaeological Treasures | The Golden masks from Trebenishte (http://www.macar.org/archaeological_treasures/golden_masks.html)

Notice the link with the Thessalonika necropolis who can elaborate some more?

[Ptolemy]

It must be really disheartening for skopjans to publish in their archaeological sites golden masks carrying.. the Hellenic key. :lol:

[Cadmus]

If we look at the top of the mask we can clearly identify square repetitive shapes seen also on the top or roof of many temples of course Hellenic, amd which reminds me of a labyrinth form? could this be typically Mycenean?

Besides the Skopians as some would like to call the Fyrom government can't
deny their South-western part is proper Hellenic land as it always had been despite the slavic settlements and many invasions...even the Paenion cultural heritage they can't claim..

Can anyone post some pics from the Masks found at Syndos?
Btw what league of royalty could have lived there...if there was a Mycenean migration to Macedonia then it could be plausible to have more then one royal line instead of the oligarche system .

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1795/ohridmuseumhelmetsqy0.th.jpg (http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ohridmuseumhelmetsqy0.jpg)

What type of commander would wear the rams helmet?..also a Illyrian style helmet can be seen

[Flipper]

I have one helmet with a mask from Sindos here....
http://www.mechanix.gr/flipper/history/pics/sindos_maskinhelmet%28mycenaean%29.jpg

Also, the Labirynth form you speak about Cadmus is the Maiadros AKA the Greek key. Symbol of Hellenism back in the days.

Meander (art) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meander_%28art%29)

As for the Moloset, I hope as well we're not talking about the Molossians. Or do you mean Northern Epirotans being Molossians? Molossos (plural molossoi) is a Greek metric ;) Names showing greatness was common between the greek tribes. Similar example was the Aperandoi of Agrapha ;)

[Spartan]

This is quite funny and avoids the obvious links with the Peleponnese.

"Funerary golden masks found in princedoms monumental graves near the village Trebenishte in the vicinity of Ohrid. According to the other finds from the rich graves (bronze and silver jewelry, luxurious pottery and toreutic objects, weapons) they have been dated in the VI c. BC. They are similar to the style and the time of production of the golden masks from the necropolis in Syndos, near Thessaloniki. They present the complex concept of believing in immortality, by the essence of covering the deceased's body with skillfully, virtuosly made golden sheet shaped like a face mask or cover for the other body parts (arms, legs). The artistic expression confirms the high civilization level of the ancient Macedonian culture, and the dilemma for the link with the younger Phoenician masks and the famous Mycenaean masks is a challenge for the contemporary science.


There is nothing challenging UNLESS you are trying to avoid the obvious connection to the Mycenaeans. Of course the Mycenaean and Phoenician mask would date around 700-900 years earlier than the mask shown from the 6th cent. B.C.E. I noticed the only reason they mentioned Syndos is because it is in land many in FYROM claim as theirs and thus meaning no connection with the Peleponnese.

It is quite sad to see archaeologist conforming to state propoganda. I guarantee that they are not taken serious in international circles because of that! No REAL or self respecting archaeologist will let politics and political propoganda CHANGE or AVOID Science.


I am curious as to the Phoenician Mask. What are their dates and where have they been found?

[Cadmus]

Thanks Flipper!

Now that's a HAPPY looking death mask!:) wonder whom it is?

What type of commander would wear such a Helmet with the rams head motive?
All the battle helmets found in the vicinity of Lychnidos bear the same Hellenic-Illyrian typing..I guess the Lychnidos garisson as we might call it or detachment would had looked like this...Is it safe to say that all the Noblemen from Emathia/Chaldikiki/Lyncestian area and the Lychnidos one would/could had made part of Alexander's heavy cavalry?

Would they ware such helmets to distinguish themselves..maybe a battalion commander of a 1000 men ?

Also is it possible to get any confirmation about the exact ancestry of the Lychnidos aristocracy, as in the same locations of Sindos and others..
The Bacchiadae royalty moved to Corcyra in the 8th century B.C. and according to Strabo as Ptolemy pointed out to the Lyncestians (with probably pre-joining the Molossian Ethne) or would the small area Lychnidos-Heraclea Lyncestis have more then one royal house?

All the best

[akritas]

It must be really disheartening for skopjans to publish in their archaeological sites golden masks carrying.. the Hellenic key. :lol:
What about this one....


Implementation of new standards and technologies in archaeology in Republic of Macedonia, project financed and supported by the British Embassy in the Republic of Macedonia.

Center for Archaeological Research (http://www.macar.org/index.html)

[Ervald]

When you mean Moloset mean the tribe of Molossians ?:wacko:


yes, thats how we call them

[Ervald]

I dont understand why do you have to explain to them. I mean they came 1000 years after those helmets to the ballkans.

From what i see thsoe helmets are identical to Illyrian ones.

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/624/illyrians4bmur9.jpg

the greek ones had Round shape with edge for the eyes, like an egg

[akritas]

yes, thats how we call them
So except the descents of the ancient Macedonians that identify as Mkaedonci now we have and the descents of the ancient Molossians that identify as Moloset!!!

No problem with that, anyone beleive oti tous serbiroune!!!!:laugh:

[Cadmus]

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6410/05wx0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Here are 2 others from the same region with different intricate patterns.

The historical sources mention the Lychnidus Lake first time at Diodor's saying that the Macedonian king Phillip II, during the first Ilyrian war in 358 BC, after defeating Bardilis, has moved the borders of its state to the west, to the Lychnidus Lake.

this seems contradictory with much older Hellenic masks found in it's area..it seems to me a lot of the assumptions can't be backed with serious statements and facts about the Hellenic "age" of Lychnidos...could the Brygians or Enhelians had such funeral traditions adopted by Myceneans or Molossians?

[Cadmus]

Folks can we stay on topic please!

I'm trying to understand a difficult era of the Lychnidos history..and yes i claim for my mother's family side to have a HELLENIC
background and subsequently they always had inhabited that particulair area from the beginning...according to my family's tradition..and no they did not arrive in the 6th c.A.D. as in the Albanian sclavines no one wishes with Hellenic genes to mix with them nor Turks/Bulgarians or Slaves...there is a story about my great-great-grandmother being ordered to marry a Serb and she fled the area..because of the proud heritage of Macedonian blood...and it always had been like that passed on for many years..

So stop this OT-Ranting ...you see you don't have to react! and post if you have nothing to adress...

[Cadmus]

I dont understand why do you have to explain to them. I mean they came 1000 years after those helmets to the ballkans.


This coming from an Albanian isn't that paradoxal?
No one can claim direct ancestry considering a 2000+ year gap..

[Flipper]

Folks can we stay on topic please!

I'm trying to understand a difficult era of the Lychnidos history..and yes i claim for my mother's family side to have a HELLENIC
background and subsequently they always had inhabited that particulair area from the beginning...according to my family's tradition..and no they did not arrive in the 6th c.A.D. as in the Albanian sclavines no one wishes with Hellenic genes to mix with them nor Turks/Bulgarians or Slaves...there is a story about my great-great-grandmother being ordered to marry a Serb and she fled the area..because of the proud heritage of Macedonian blood...and it always had been like that passed on for many years..

So stop this OT-Ranting ...you see you don't have to react! and post if you have nothing to adress...

Cadmus the comments were no directed to you. And ofcourse we should stay on topic.

[Flipper]

The Mycenean funereal traditions appear in macedonia the 13th century BC. Here is a post about a Mycenean cementary found in Agios Dimitrios.

Mycenaean cementaries in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/archeological-artifactual-macedonian-history/961-mycenaean-cementary-macedonia.html)

Hammond and other historians compare the findings with those in Argos and Mycenai.

I will also remind you of Hellanicus quote "Macedonians are named, only those that inhabited the area after the Myssians had left". We know that Myssians and Phrygians left by that time and suddenly the tombs and the pottery follow the Mycenaean style.

[Flipper]

The Mycenean funereal traditions appear in macedonia the 13th century BC. Here is a post about a Mycenean cementary found in Agios Dimitrios.

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/archeological-artifactual-macedonian-history/961-mycenaean-cementary-macedonia.html

Hammond and other historians compare the findings with those in Argos and Mycenai.

I will also remind you of Hellanicus quote "Macedonians are named, only those that inhabited the area after the Myssians had left". We know that Myssians and Phrygians left by that time and suddenly the tombs and the pottery follow the Mycenaean style.

[Cadmus]

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/8013/11illyriandg0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Besides here clearly other types of Illyrian helmets can be seen!
The statement that the typical Illyrian-Greek helmet posted on the previous pages does not necessarily mean they are Illyrian but maybe Macedonian typically...

[Flipper]

So except the descents of the ancient Macedonians that identify as Mkaedonci now we have and the descents of the ancient Molossians that identify as Moloset!!!

No problem with that, anyone beleive oti tous serbiroune!!!!:laugh:

Well, they may call them as they wish, as long as they do not make up a story that the native molossians were not Aecidai but Albanians.

What do you say Ervald?

[olvios]

Terms such as Illyrian and attic are used in archaeology for convenience to denote a particulat type of helmet and do not imply its origin.All helmets come from the peloponese.

Page 60 Peter Connoly
Greece & Rome at War

[olvios]

And the ones that didnt that also explain the illyrian Celtic root

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-greek-forum/1444-illyrian-ancestry-albanians-8.html#post17352

see my last 2 posts