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pankration
11-05-2006, 05:13 PM
Much has been made of the role of alcohol in Alexander’s life. Unquestionably, the Macedonians were hardy drinkers who partook often in all-night parties where it appears the primary purpose was to drink more than your neighbor. What confounds many modern historians is whether or not Philip, the Macedonians or Alexander fit the current definition of alcoholics.

John Maxwell O’Brien in his biography, Alexander the Great: The Invisible Enemy explores this issue in detail. He takes an interesting perspective however. To O’Brien, it was the relationship the Macedonians had to the god, Dionysus that hurtled them to the self-destructive behavior of excessive alcohol consumption. Couple this with the fact that Macedonians treated the wine itself differently and one can see why so many have asked about the role of wine in that culture.

Ancient Greeks diluted their wine with water—possibly for economy, but certainly to discourage intemperance. Moderation was the hallmark of the civilized, while gulping was for the vulgar, and drunkenness was the way of the barbarian. The Greeks were highly critical of Macedonians, who, like barbarians, drank wine undiluted and in prodigious amounts. (O’Brien 1992)

The mythology that Macedonians were not Greek, first spread by Demosthenes in his tirades against Philip (the Philippics) was fuelled by differences, especially destructive ones like alcohol abuse. To Athenians, Spartans and even other Macedonians, temperance was a virtue. But to Philip, according to O’Brien, if you didn’t drink with the “boys” you were not part of the inner circle. The ageless motto “fight hard, live hard” lionized warriors of Philip and Alexander’s abilities who could win great battles in the morning and drink and carouse all night. Philip exemplified this ideal.

It is unfortunate that excessive drinking occasionally got the better of Philip’s judgment. Although O’Brien quotes the odd contemporary who said that Philip was often inebriated there is no real evidence from any of the plethora of scholars who wrote of Philip. There is no doubt that after the battle Philip could celebrate like no other. We must however examine how much of the reveling was orchestrated. Philip was a master tactician in every facet of his life. From his alliances, multiple marriages and victories on the battlefield every move was planned. How else could the rest of the fractious Greeks be brought into one united federation like the Corinth League? Philip held elaborate celebrations to reward, cajole and manipulate friends and enemies. Alcohol was a critical component of that exercise.

Sadly, excessive alcohol consumption got in the way of his and Alexander’s relationship. The infamous story of how he stumbled at a party and Alexander made a disparaging remark has been chronicled incessantly. Even a statesman and conqueror like Philip could fall victim to wine.

Finally, O’Brien states that “Philip’s son attempted to emulate the royal tippler par excellence. When holding his own at a drinking party, Alexander’s drinking probably elicited almost as much admiration from his men as his heroics on the battlefield”. In a warrior culture, the leader has to be better than his men at everything. It appears Philip and Alexander were no exception. :dry:

O’Brien, J. M. Alexander the Great: The Invisible Enemy. Routledge Press, London. 1992

PhiliptheUniterchaeronea
11-05-2006, 05:24 PM
Worthy post Pankration.

jinglebrains
11-07-2006, 12:47 AM
Hello Pankration - I presume you're built for the Heavy Events from your name. I've read Invisible Enemy and am interested in the relationship between the Macedonians and Dionysos. I had thought until recently that Dionysos was the god the Macedonians honoured most, but something I read today mentioned a Zeus-Dionysos mix and I am left confused. The Greek way of appending names to a god makes it more confusing still, for instance Dionysos Zagreus(??), and similarly Dionysos' list of titles is endless, making him seem like a hundred deities. I would appreciate if you could try to clarify this issue for me because I can find no easy explanations in the books available to me. Thanks in advance, J.

pankration
11-12-2006, 01:08 AM
Before I answer your question I want to make sure my research is accurate so give me a few more days. However I can probably clarify a couple of things.
In "Invisible Enemy", O'Brien puts a lot of emphasis on Dionysus and his importance to the Macedonians. Other research shows this to be a stretch. In the Macedonian court, Alexander's mother was a well-known Dionysian, especially in the area of sex. Her courtiers and sycophants were too but this was hardly the case with the rest of the aristocracy and definitely not with the ordinary Macedonian. Considering the emphasis Philip then Alexander put on their bloodline, Zeus was by far the most important god to the Macedonians. Remember, the royal family traced itself back to Heracles, himself the child of the god, Zeus. I'll get more evidence to back this and other claims.

jinglebrains
11-12-2006, 06:16 AM
I appreciate that pankration, thank you. I know the Argeads linked themselves with Heracles, but Dionysos was a son of Zeus also and I would have thought he would have been popular amongst soldiers because of their drinking-cult. But then again there is some quote - I paraphrase - that many who drink can become drunk, but few gain full enlightenment from the god. I suppose it's a mistake to think just because people are boozing they are showing religious zeal. But I look forward to what you have to say in the future, and thank you again.

Mygdonia
11-15-2006, 05:20 AM
some villages in Macedonia women still dance the ancient Dionysiac..it's touted to be a very old dance, they still do the Anastenaria or "fire walking".

In my village they still do.

Christov
11-15-2006, 05:37 AM
some villages in Macedonia women still dance the ancient Dionysiac..it's touted to be a very old dance, they still do the Anastenaria or "fire walking".

In my village they still do.The same dance with the same name (we call it “nestinari”) is preserved in the Rhodopi mountains.

taikou
11-15-2006, 10:48 AM
some villages in Macedonia women still dance the ancient Dionysiac..it's touted to be a very old dance, they still do the Anastenaria or "fire walking".

In my village they still do.
http://alex.eled.duth.gr/RADIO/kef43.htm
http://www.esoterica.gr/articles/psychics/anastenaria/anastenaria.htm

The 'anestenarides' are either descendants of the refugees from certain E.Thracian villages where firewalking was practiced,or those who are married to someone from such families.From a scientific point of view,a 'trade secret' which tells you how to walk barefooted on coals is simply being passed down from generation to generation.On the other hand,'religious' (superstitious?) people will attribute the firewalking to a 'miracle'.Before aquiring the 'talent',potential firewalkers will be recieving 'omens' ,such as mysterious ailments which doctors can't explain,nightmares,visions,strange voices,even some kind of 'possesion' which forces you to utter mysterious messages,etc....

taikou
11-15-2006, 10:54 AM
The same dance with the same name (we call it “nestinari”) is preserved in the Rhodopi mountains.

Isn't it supposed to be Strandzha?There is a 'Нестинарски танц' in the repertoires of Kostadin Varimezov,and he has nothing to do with Rhodopi...

Christov
11-15-2006, 11:23 AM
Isn't it supposed to be Strandzha?There is a 'Нестинарски танц' in the repertoires of Kostadin Varimezov,and he has nothing to do with Rhodopi...Maybe you are right! Now I’ve done a little search on the internet, and the very first results are showing Strandja as the location. But it stays in my mind somehow Rhodopi. If the person you talk about was not born there, it doesn’t mean anything.

pankration
11-16-2006, 01:07 AM
Does the firewalking go back to Alexander's day? I would be interested in finding out more about it and specifically where it was practiced in ancient times. I thought it was an Indian tradition.

Mygdonia
11-16-2006, 02:00 AM
The Anastenaria is a Hellenstic-pagan tradition of Thrace and East Macedonia.

The Anestanaria later changed meaning in 1250 AD when a local Church in the vicinity of Thrace caught fire and people heard the holy figures crying from within. Locals in the village of St. Helen from the Serres prefecture ran into the burning church and saved the figures. The descendants are believed to have the power of dancing on red hot coals without suffering any burns by holding the very same figures held by their forefathers, which is how the event is celebrated up until today.

The church, condemns the ritual, but despite the Church's condemnation of the anastendrides' practices, I found that both Mavrolefki anastendrides and certain other Greeks from Drama and Athens do not assess the connection with the old 'Dionysian' activities as untoward. These people do not consider the pagan past as necessarily compromising their Christian commitment.

It is significant to note that various churches in different parts of Greece have been built on the same archaic sites and indicate a continuity in religious orientations.

pankration
11-16-2006, 01:03 PM
Very informative. Thank you.

Amarantos
11-16-2006, 01:41 PM
...ancient Dionysiac..

An other Dionysiac festivity still alive and kicking in Greece is the "Mpourani" tradition in Tyrnavos region,Thessaly.Not casually the region is full of grapes!!!And the people go out in the streets with phallic symbols in their hands,singing the "skoptika" traditional songs which have kinda explicit lyrics.:p

Here 's one.Hope it won't be censored:p

Τις Μιγά- αντί καλέ, τις Μιγάλις Άπουκριές,

τις Μιγάλις Άπουκριές πού ανάβουν οί φωτιές

και ζητούν να βρουν ψωλές για να σβήσουν τις φωτιές,

άναψε και ή Χριστίνα, πού 'χ' να γαμηθεί ένα μήνα,

άναψε και ή Μαρία κι έχει μιαν ανησυχία,

άναψε κι ή Παναγιώτα, κακαρίζει σαν την κότα

κι άνιβαίνει κατιβαίνει και την πούτσα δε χουρταίνει.

Μπρέ-μπρέ-μπρέ το μπουρανί και τσ' Χαλάτσαινας το μ'νί.

Domna Samiou is a singer with a great offer to traditional music.She sings some of these songs too,but unfortunately i haven't got any at the moment:(

Amarantos
11-16-2006, 05:55 PM
Here 's an other "σκωπτικο"-satirical (Satyros,demon of the forests companion of Dionysus) traditional song,this time from Macedonia and not from Thessaly (even if i think Thessalians are by far ahead on such situations :laugh: ).Kozani region.

Ου παππούς, μπρέ-μπρέ-μπρέ,

ου παππούς ου Ραγκαβέλας,

ου παππούς ου Ραγκαβέλας ειχιν μια κουτσή γουμάρα,

ήταν πούτσις φουρτουμένη, ήταν κι άγκαστρωμένη.

Τι σιργιανούσι στα χουριά, Σπούρτα, Βάντσις, Κιρασιά,

Σπούρτα, Βάντσις, Κιρασιά, πάρτι πούτσις φέρτι μ'νιά.

Πήραν νιές κι παντριμένις, χήρις κι άρραβουνιασμένις,

κι μια χήρα πινιμένη δεν ίπρόφτασε να πάρει.

Παίρν' τινάζει τα τσουβάλια, πέφτει μια μι δυο κιφάλια.

Τράβα ή μια κι τράβα ή άλλη και της κόψαν το κιφάλι.