The "london Times" and the Macedonian Question

[Tchakalaroff]

What did the "London Times" write about the Macedonian Question
in 1903, during the insurrection.. This is a very, very interesting document...

Please read it guys.. And Vulgaroksonos, don't erase it :) please
it is a authentic document !!!


http://struggle.hit.bg/theoutlines.png

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

First of all welcome Tchakalaroff. A pleasure to have you come here and discuss issues. I find that the article may not be as favourable to the Slavic cause as you may wish. Indeed it points out that there were many more Greeks in Macedonia before the War of Independence with the Turks. I do think that the figures may be incorrect though. I ask yourself Tchakalaroff, and some of the other members here to reference census reports of the era. Indeed, I do recal some posted here that refute the figure. However, we welcome all statistics to ensure the figures are correct. Please send me a link to the page you found this so that I can look at the whole picture mate. Once again welcome, and thanks. I am sure you will find our members here knowledgable and courteous. Voulgaroktonos is a respected member and a wealth of information, I hope the jabs stay to a minimum mate. Cheers.

[Tchakalaroff]

First of all welcome Tchakalaroff. A pleasure to have you come here and discuss issues. I find that the article may not be as favourable to the Slavic cause as you may wish. Indeed it points out that there were many more Greeks in Macedonia before the War of Independence with the Turks. I do think that the figures may be incorrect though. I ask yourself Tchakalaroff, and some of the other members here to reference census reports of the era. Indeed, I do recal some posted here that refute the figure. However, we welcome all statistics to ensure the figures are correct. Please send me a link to the page you found this so that I can look at the whole picture mate. Once again welcome, and thanks. I am sure you will find our members here knowledgable and courteous. Voulgaroktonos is a respected member and a wealth of information, I hope the jabs stay to a minimum mate. Cheers.

Thank you for the warm welcome Philip...
I'm pleased that I can talk to a man that knows so much about history..

But can you please tell Vulgaroksonos not to change the things that I write...
I never use the word Republic of Macedonia.. I say "my country" because this is a greek forum and I don't want to affend your feelings...

Tell him, ok :)

[Orphic_Hymn]

Interesting indeed. It becomes even more interesting when we look into the online version of the Encyclopedia Britannica on the heading Macedonia (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Macedonia).

While the suggested original article claims :

"The Greeks who number some 25.000 and who form a considerable element of the urban population in Southern Macedonia do not hold such a strong position in Southern Macedonia as they did some years ago"


Now when we look into the original as seen in the above provided link, we read :

At the beginning of the 18th century the Turkish population was very considerable, but since that time it has continuously decreased.

Could the alleged author have mixed up these two 'races' ???
This is the only conclusion since a couple of lines down we read :

The typical Greek, with his superior education, his love of politics and commerce, and his distaste for laborious occupations, has always been a dweller in cities. In Salonica, Serres, Kavala, Castoria, and other towns in southern Macedonia the Hellenic element is strong; in the northern towns it is insignificant, except at Melnik, which is almost exclusively Greek. The Greek rural population extends from the Thessalian frontier to Castoria and Verria (Beroea); it occupies the whole Chalcidian peninsula and both banks of the lower Strymon from Serres to the sea, and from Nigrita on the west to Pravishta on the east; there are also numerous Greek villages in the Kavala district. The Mahommedan Greeks, known as Valachides, occupy a considerable tract in the upper Bistritza valley near Grevena and Liapsista. The purely Greek population of Macedonia may possibly be estimated at a quarter of a million.


Interestingly enough, the alleged author also misquoted the number and from approx. 500.000 decreased it to a mere 1/20th of the Ecyclopedia's account.


Anyway, lets see some of the really juicy parts mentioned in the REAL article of the Encyclopedia Britannica..



...................The first opposition to Greek ecclesiastical ascendancy came from the Bulgarians. The Bulgarian literary revival, which took place in the earlier part of the 19th century, was the precursor of the ecclesiastical and national movement which resulted in the establishment of the exarchate in 18 7 o (see Bulgaria). In the course of the struggle some of the Bulgarian leaders entered into negotiations with Rome; a Bulgarian Uniate church was recognized by the Porte, and the pope nominated a bishop, who, however, was mysteriously deported to Russia a few days after his consecration (1861). The first exarch, who was elected in 1871, was excommunicated with all his followers by the patriarch, and a considerable number of Bulgarians in Macedonia - the so-called "Bulgarophon.e Greeks" - fearing the reproach of schism, or influenced by other considerations, refrained from acknowledging the new spiritual power. Many of the recently converted uniates, on the other hand, offered their allegiance to the exarch.


A little note here. Just out of coincidence we read Russia, lets just note that your very first 'scholars' and the inventors of your so-called language all studied in Russia.. (Miladinov, Parteni Zografski...etc)


The Berlin Treaty, by its artificial division of the Bulgarian race, created the difficult and perplexing "Macedonian Question." The The population handed back to Turkish rule never Macedonian acquiesced in its fate; its discontent was aggravated Question. by the deplorable misgovernment which characterized the reign of Abdul Hamid II., and its efforts to assert itself, stimulated by the sympathy of the enfranchised portion of the race, provoked rival movements on the part of the other Christian nationalities, each receiving encouragement and material aid from the adjacent and kindred states.

No comment.


In 1893, however, a number of secret revolutionary societies (druzhestva) were set on foot in Macedonia, and in 1894 similar Bulgarian bodies were organized as legal corporations in Bul- Conspira- garia. The fall of Stamboloff in that year and the Gies. reconciliation of Bulgaria with Russia encouraged the revolutionaries in the mistaken belief that Russia would take steps to revive the provisions of the San Stefano treaty.


At the same time the Bulgarian government, under pressure from Russia, arrested the revolutionary leaders in the principality, suppressed the committees, and confiscated their Bulgarian funds. The Internal Organization, however, was be- Insurrecyond reach, and preparations for an insurrection went tion in rapidly forward. In March a serious Albanian revolt 1903. complicated the situation. At the end of April a number of dynamite outrages took place at Salonica; public opinion in Europe turned against the revolutionaries and the Turks seized the opportunity to wreak a terrible vengeance on the Bulgarian population. On the 2nd of August, the feast of St Elias, a general insurrection broke out in the Monastir vilayet, followed by sporadic revolts in other districts. The insurgents achieved some temporary successes and occupied the towns of Krushevo, Klisura and Neveska, but by the end of September their resistance was overcome; more than loo villages were burned by the troops and bashi-bazouks, 8400 houses were destroyed and 60,000 peasants remained homeless in the mountains at the approach of winter.
incursions, often resulting in permanent settlements, added to the troubles of the Christian population. The reforms embodied in the Hatt-i-Sherif of Gulhane (1839) and in the Hatt-i-humayun (1856), in both of which the perfect equality of races and religions was proclaimed, remained a dead letter; the first "Law of the Vilayets" (1864), reforming the local administration, brought no relief, while depriving the Christian communities of certain rights which they had hitherto possessed.


Its a great article, do read it.

[pankration]

Philiptheuniter is right; this article does your cause no good. First, the numbers are easily disputed by census reports from several sources (quoted in this forum on other threads). Secondly, the article clearly states that the majority of "Macedonia" is made up of slavs who emigrated to this region in the 6th and 7th centuries, a thousand years AFTER Alexander. In the same paragraph it also says that the overwhelming majority of Slavs are BULGARIAN. So much for your claims to ancient Macedon.
I too am glad to have you on this site and I welcome scholarly discussion. Just be careful to not fall into the trap of other Slavs and Skopjians; using questionable sources to support your arguments.

[Tsontos]

lol why would I erase it? I posted the exact same article a long time ago:

My question is why the fuck would you post it when, as an article it goes into depth about the macedonian issue and does not once mention a Macedonian race? the only people it mentions in Macedonia are the Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs and Slavs of whom "the vast majority are Bulgarians"

lol wtf?

[Tsontos]

heres where I posted it:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/skopjian-slavic-history-slavic-migration/449-ethnic-historical-origins-skopjian-nation.html

[Tsontos]

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/0/0d/Smaller.JPG

[Tchakalaroff]

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wiki/images/0/0d/Smaller.JPG

The article talks about SLAVS, and it says :"Foregn specialists asume that Maceddonioan Slavs are bulgarians:... it is not imperative, it is a presumption !!!

It aslo says that Macedonian Slavs difere both in apperiance and charachter from Serns and Bulgarians !!!

And, BTW - The Greek influence is presented as a "racial propaganda"..
What can you say about that Vulgaroktonos (but be polite and don't swear please)...

[Tsontos]

I have a few points to make and then ill let you get back to making a fool of yourself:

1) I dont know if english is your first language but you obviously do not no what the word imperative means.

2) it says :"Foregn specialists asume that Maceddonioan Slavs are bulgarians:... it is not imperative, it is a presumption !!!


no, actually this is EXACTLY what it says. quite a difference I think youll agree: Almost all independent authorities agree that the vast majority of the Slavic population of Macedonia is Bulgarian

Now. forget your commitern education for a moment and consider this. Seeing as the article doesnt once mention a 'macedonian ethnicity' and, after the overview of the Slavs, the only two ethnicities which are mentioned are Serbs and Bulgarians. Any idiot with half a brain can see that when the independent authorities indicate the Slavs of Macedonia as Bulgarian they are doing so at the expense of the Serbs. As at that time Macedonism was simply too tinyer ideology to be seriously considered in the macedonian issue. simply put, aside from a few macedonian autonomists in the VMRO, there was no macedonian national consiousness.

foreign maps, articles, a real examination of history at this time in this part of the world shows your country to be the farce it is. All I can say is congratulations to those skopjians who have taken up bulgarian citizenship and seen the light.

3)
It aslo says that Macedonian Slavs difere both in apperiance and charachter from Serns and Bulgarians !!!


hahha once again I ask you to forget your commitern education and and read on from that quote. what does it say AFTER that? why do they differ in physical appearance? stop living in a fantasy world.


And, BTW - The Greek influence is presented as a "racial propaganda"..

your point being?all three major ethnic groups in macedonia were involved in racial propaganda.

[Tsontos]

why on earth you would post such a detailed foreign article on the macedonian issue which doesnt mention a macedonian race is beyond me. then again what can you do? no such foreign article exists LOL

[Tchakalaroff]

I have a few points to make and then ill let you get back to making a fool of yourself:

1) I dont know if english is your first language but you obviously do not no what the word imperative means.

2)

no, actually this is EXACTLY what it says. quite a difference I think youll agree:

Now. forget your commitern education for a moment and consider this. Seeing as the article doesnt once mention a 'macedonian ethnicity' and, after the overview of the Slavs, the only two ethnicities which are mentioned are Serbs and Bulgarians. Any idiot with half a brain can see that when the independent authorities indicate the Slavs of Macedonia as Bulgarian they are doing so at the expense of the Serbs. As at that time Macedonism was simply too tinyer ideology to be seriously considered in the macedonian issue. simply put, aside from a few macedonian autonomists in the VMRO, there was no macedonian national consiousness.

foreign maps, articles, a real examination of history at this time in this part of the world shows your country to be the farce it is. All I can say is congratulations to those skopjians who have taken up bulgarian citizenship and seen the light.

3)


hahha once again I ask you to forget your commitern education and and read on from that quote. what does it say AFTER that? why do they differ in physical appearance? stop living in a fantasy world.




your point being?all three major ethnic groups in macedonia were involved in racial propaganda.

Interesting point of view....
But ut doesn't mean that it is the true one..
But OK, I aprove your answer..
thanks...