FYROM: an essay

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by rtgs

kostas - i see that you are full of spam. please do not spam me, to read all that greek propaganda,

<Greek propaganda>???Did you notice the names of the authors of all the books i have quoted?Did you find even one single Greek name?Is that all you have to answer?I showed you the testimonies of 15-16 persons who visited the Balkans in 16th,19th and early 20th century and the books of 20 modern historians and all of them agree on this:There was never any separated <Macedonian> ethnicity till 1870.The construction of this new-invented ethnicity started after this date and the reasons for this are very well explained.But i think you never bothered yourself to read what i quoted.You know only to claim: <I am Macedonian because my grandfather who lived 98 years (it's really very impressive how all of your grandfathers were so long-lived,you can break the global record of longevity) told me this>.But when you have to confront reality,you avoid to do it like the ostrichs who hide their head in the sand.You're really pitifull!

Originally Posted by rtgs

which you are copy-pasting everywhere

That proves that you never paid attention to what i quoted,because you would notice that most of these quotes were originally posted by me in other threads and the rest by other members of the forum.And off course we didn't copied nothing,we searched and found all this evidence ourselves.So make your research and find your evidence.I challenge you.Can you find even one testimony from someone who visited the Balkans before 1860 and mentioned the non-existent then <Macedonian ethnicity> ? I found a plenty of them who didn't mention it.These are the rules of the game and according to them you have suffered a heavy defeat,regardless of the fact that your blind chauvinism don't allow you to accept it.

Originally Posted by rtgs

(maybe you are bot? or you are paid per copy-past by the greek government). Please stop pasting that big messages, and tell me one by one.

HAHAHAHA?I think it's time for me to resign from my job since i can become rich only by this copy/pasting.This shows one more time your naivity,if you really believe that the Greek government hasn't any other work to do than <paying per copy-paste> someone to fight your on net propaganda!But i can understand you.You've been brainwashed by clowns like Stefov and Tentov that in Macedonia didn't exist any Greeks prior to 1912,there were only your brothers whose dream was to join with you one day.

Originally Posted by rtgs

I don't see my "yellow card" in this forum, so probably you asked for that?
I hope you can stand it and you will not stop me from posting on this site after I tell you about your propaganda flows, because it will be in your best interest (you may think of even better propaganda, and be promoted to strategos-bot).

But even if you block me, that will just show about your type of talking, similar to your type of talking about the problems you have with our name in the UN, where you are avoiding Nimitz as a the Devil that runs away from Cross (stavros).

Listen,dude,i'm not a moderator so i can't block anyone.But even if had the power for this i would never do that and particularly to you.I would never kick away such a chance to ridicule your absurd claims.

Originally Posted by rtgs

whatever, i am here - please choose your best "fact" and hit me. Not all that spam, just the best one that shows that macedonians (kind like me) are not macedonians, and the whole world was full of greeks and only greeks, everywhere greeks... and the earth is flat... and the king is alive.... and the greek space ship full of greeks that landed in area 51.... or what ever is your theory
But please - Short, not more then 1 or 2 screens. I can not go up and down, all the time....

I've already shown you a lot of evidence that reveal your true identity.Especially the last one by this American journalist who lived for 9 months amongst a komitadji band and fought along them is the most valuable.And i never said that you could find <everywhere Greeks>.You are the one that see everywhere <Macedonians> when you claim that the Bulgarians where actually <Macedonians>.

Originally Posted by rtgs

If I am Macedonian, citizen of "Republic of Greece" who is born and lives in Voden, could i put "Voden" as a living town in the <greek> passport? Or I must use artificial name of Edessa? Look at your map, what is the name for Voden?

Would ever FYROM's authorities edit a passport for a Greek who lives in your country using the word <Monastir> instead <Bitola> ?

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by rtgs

1. Be carefull - i want to think. Not to REPEAT what somebody had said 10 or 100 or 1000 years ago. They were probably writing half truths, depending on the side they took, depending how they were instructed, depending how they were lied by the locals, or the side they were paid by. So I want to think, and IN COLOR, not BLACK and WHITE.

Let's say your oppinion is right and that some of these foreign travelers who visited the Balkans before 100,150,200 0r 400 years didn't mention the <Macedonian ethnicity>,either because they weren't careful or they were paid by someone (really who would paid them for this in 1550 or 1640 and why?)By the way,another traveler who visited Skopje in 1640 and didn't find any ethnic <Macedonians>,only Turks,Albanians and Serbians:


But can you tell me,how come that no one of those travelers mentioned ever a <Macedonian> ethnicity prior to 1860?It's impossible,despite all the bribes or the carelessness you claim there had to be at least one single person that would mention this ethnicity!Can you find him?Watch out,i am talking before 1860 and a concrete passage where the author writes clearly about the ethnicities and their numbers that dwell in a concrete city,region or village.We can't find something like this.Why?Weren't the <Macedonians> so rich then to bribe these authors in order to write something in their favor?

Originally Posted by rtgs

Also I see your newspapers and they blindness about CURRENT situation in Macedonia, and PERMANENTLY denaying that Macedonians exist, and that all are greeks, when (AT LEAST) some are not..

We don't deny your existence.We deny your pseudoethnicity and your attempt to usurp an identity and a history that doesn't belongs you,as all the globally respectable historians,scholars,intellectuals e.t.c accept.

Originally Posted by rtgs

I do not inisist on "my side" (there are many other newspaper articles from 1890s and 1900s who clearly distinguish Macedonians from Greeks (did you read the pdf i have posted with a 1902 NY times article: Greek betrayed Macedonians?), but i will skip them for now).

And i showed you a lot of articles from the same era that use interchangeably the terms <Bulgarian> and <Macedonian> for the same persons.That proves that the term <Macedonian> was used only by regional meaning and the term Bulgarian was used for their ethnicity.Read here what they really believed about this <Macedonian> ethnicity:


As for this article <Greeks betrayed Macedonians> read below and answer me:Why Greece helped these Macedonians?Was Greece helping VMRO?No off course.The newspaper used the term Macedonian by regional meaning only.These Macedonians were actually Greeks and therefore Greece helped them,whereas the Macedonians from your article were Bulgarians.The term Macedonia was just a geographical designation,not an ethnic.If we read somewhere about Bavarians,that means they are a distinct ethnicity and not Germans?The same goers for the Alsatians,the Sicilians,the Boehms,the Andalusians,are all these distinct ethnicities?

Originally Posted by rtgs

2. Yes, "Bulgarians" has similar habits to macedonians. I do not deny it. (serbs, and albanians, and "greeks", too, have similar habits, but less and less and less).
Don't try to persuade me about that. I know that Bulgarians are similar to Macedonians.
However, I doubt if <Bulgarians> ARE Bulgarians? (i will use marking for nations of today with this signs < >, to distinguish them from the medieval or ancient times) On the contrary I claim that <bulgarians> are in most part MACEDONIANS, and from there it is the similarity.
There were changes, the last changes from 1920s to 1940s when many macedonians from Drama, kavala, seres were expelled/escaped to bulgaria.
But there are even deeper questions - unanswered.
Why I think that <Bulgarians> are more Macedonian then Bulgarian? You will know if you answer the following question:
That Bulgarians, from around 5th century - did they speak our (macedonian) languge or some other? why are then <bulgarians> speaking (modified) macedonian?
ON THE OTHER SIDE, <Macedonians> and <Bulgarians> had 200 years of very different positions and culture, so now - they are different CULTURALLY.
I may go on. But please answer in short if you agree to this, to continue.

Now who is the fanatical?Me or you who considers all the Bulgarians <Macedonians>?Sorry,but history writes about Bulgarians,the Bulgarian Tsars Symeon,Samouil,Ivan Assen,not Macedonians,and all the Byzantine historians refer to them as Bulgarians.But let me guess:They were all paid by the Bulgarians,eh?

[rtgs]

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

It was the Serbian point of view. What do you think they would show?

aha - some historical maps are Serbian propaganda (have not true point of view), and some are prure (greek) truth... :-)


i won't comment in more details that:
1. there is ANOTHER color for serbs on that map, different from the macedonian color and they were not written macedonians, but macedonian slavs, only becuase of the "serbian point of view" ?
2. greeks are ANOTHER color, and guess what - i don't see it in "CENTRAL" Macedonia, aka Voden (eddesa)

Just THINK yourself.

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

If you were clever enough you would find the year, it is from 1914 and it was presented to the Carnegie committee. The oldest maps show all of the population as Greek (Patriarchists, no Exarchate = Bulgaria is Greek. Ha!)

No i am not that clever to dig in the hiSTORY and live in the past.

I like to live in tommorow, or at least TODAY.

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

It is a SERBIAN map and the light Green is meant for SERBS.

and the dark green above is for serbs too?

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

You should have borders with Turkey or Iraq or Afghanistan, instead of Greece, and then I would like to see what would be your opinion about the borders in general.

First - we are far much better then Iraq or Afganistan. There are FREE people here, you may come and see. Without any visa at all. (i don't see the problem with Turkey, they are very free country and if you go in their 5 star hotels you will find luxury which doesn't exist in "Greece", and yes - Turkey protects you and me from the Iraq madness)

Second - I was thinking about borders for a FREE passage of people. Not to change governments responsible for the well being in the regions. you may keep it administratively - just let the people LIVE. TODAY. Not in 1914...

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

Probably in Epirus.

Very close: In "Kastoria". Because greeks love macedonians...

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

I know that, my granpa suffered there for 3 1/2 years, he almost died because he was a "durduvak" (forced labor slave)

I don't know what does it mean "durduvak" ? Was it in Macedonia ??? (somebody is lying you - we don't have a word near to "durduvak")

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

We saw what sort of Switzerland was Yugoslavia. We know that if the Albanians didn't rebel, you should still deny them their democratic rights (one vote for every two Albanians because you conveniently "forgot" to update the census eh?)

Yeas, I agree that Yugoslavia (even much more free that Greece today (not to compare to the regimes of greece in the past which were even worse)) was bad country. Macedonians, and Albanians and slovenians were oppressed by the serbs.

We have one vote (albanians and macedonians), but after we are going to vote we were always over voted. That is why, instead of liberating Macedonia, we liberated Istria.

We also have right to free speach (and albanians had university on albanian) - something you could not achieve even now for albanians and macedonians in greece.

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

When was the last time that we killed someone for that reason? Did you confuse us with the Turks? They are the ones who still kill Armenians, Kurds, Catholic missionaries e.t.c.

massively - probably in 1970s. In rare cases, or as a dissapeerance or as a sickness, or as beating EVEN know. Did you read that 5 greeks had beaten a macedonian truck driver, jsut because he is macedonian, few months ago ? They must be very brave - 5 to 1. The famous greek brave people. You are 10 to 1, and you are very brave.

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

The passport should convey accurate information. You cannot possibly use different passwords showing the same place with different names, because the officials might get confused if they see such unusual data.

The question is what is accureate? For the Turks - USKUB is accurate and we put both on the passport.

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by rtgs

aha - some historical maps are Serbian propaganda (have not true point of view), and some are prure (greek) truth... :-)


i won't comment in more details that:
1. there is ANOTHER color for serbs on that map, different from the macedonian color and they were not written macedonians, but macedonian slavs, only becuase of the "serbian point of view" ?
2. greeks are ANOTHER color, and guess what - i don't see it in "CENTRAL" Macedonia, aka Voden (eddesa)

Just THINK yourself.

I wonder whether you can't read or you need a good ophthalmologist.Don't you see in the top of the map what is written:POINT DE VUE SERBE,below the <CARTE ETHNOGRAPHIQUE DE LA MACEDOINE>?And left in the bottom:D'apres le Dr.CvijivcIt's not just Petros' assertion that this map was the Serbian point of view,it's indeed the truth.And do you know who was Cvijic and what was his purpose for the creation of such maps?Read here,particularly in the last paragraph:







You see,the Greeks and especially the Macedonians aren't forgers.When we claim something it's true.

Originally Posted by rtgs

No i am not that clever to dig in the hiSTORY and live in the past.

Off course you don't dig history because it's your biggest enemy.The truth is written by the history and you all avoid the truth <as the devil avoids the frankincense> according to the Greek proverb.

Originally Posted by rtgs

I like to live in tommorow, or at least TODAY.
and the dark green above is for serbs too?

O.K. since you like to live in today you should be able to face this today:

It's from the same book above.
As you see you haven't more than 10.000-20.000 of your folks in Greece,so forget all this bulshit about 300.000 -400.000 <Macedonians> in Greece.

Originally Posted by rtgs

First - we are far much better then Iraq or Afganistan. There are FREE people here, you may come and see. Without any visa at all. (i don't see the problem with Turkey, they are very free country and if you go in their 5 star hotels you will find luxury which doesn't exist in "Greece", and yes - Turkey protects you and me from the Iraq madness)

Maybe you're right abouth the hotels(although i doubt very much) but you forget that ordinary people doesn't live in 5 star hotels.Every attempt of you to compare the development level between Greece and Turkey is funny.As for your claim that <Turkey protects us from Iraq>,what can i say.I really wonder whether you believe it really or you're trying to fool yourself.

Originally Posted by rtgs

I don't know what does it mean "durduvak" ? Was it in Macedonia ??? (somebody is lying you - we don't have a word near to "durduvak")

Yes,it was in Greek Eastern Macedonia during the Bulgarian occupations in WW1 and WW2.The Bulgarians expelled many thousands of the Greek population in concentrations camps in Bulgaria and in today's FYROM soil.Off course we can't accuse you for this.During WW1 1916-17 approximately 120 men were expelled from my village and only 30 returned back after the end of the war.You can find simmilar numbers in many other Greek villages in Macedonia.As for the term <durduvaki>,off course you can't understand it since it's the Hellenized form of the Bulgarian term <trud voinik>.I didn't spel it right but i think i helped you to understand what it means.

[MAKEDONELLHNAS]

Im so sick of this rtgs guy, everything he posts never has a link or proof to back it up and everything we post no matter if its a book, map, anything with a link to it its propaganda, wtf? Talking about being stubborn and not being able to accept the truth. This type of people are in such denial that even if Alexander the great came from the dead and told him he was Greek he would call him a liar and claim its Greek propaganda. Accept the truth and move on.

[rtgs]

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

Whose NATO bombing of "yugoslavia" in 1999?

I think that we all know who was NATO in 1999. around 16 countries, Greece INCLUDED. Yes, you bombed Yugoslavia and CNN reported that in that way you are saving Albanians against crual Serbs.


I just compared your propaganda, with CNN.

[rtgs]

Originally Posted by MAKEDONELLHNAS

Im so sick of this rtgs guy, everything he posts never has a link or proof to back it up and everything we post no matter if its a book, map, anything with a link to it its propaganda, wtf? Talking about being stubborn and not being able to accept the truth. This type of people are in such denial that even if Alexander the great came from the dead and told him he was Greek he would call him a liar and claim its Greek propaganda. Accept the truth and move on.

ha ha ha


and if he same back, and tell you how he kicked greeks many times, you will post him some propaganda books and told him that everybody in 18th and 19th century tought he was greek and he must be greek :-)

[rtgs]

Originally Posted by kostas68

Off course you don't dig history because it's your biggest enemy.The truth is written by the history and you all avoid the truth <as the devil avoids the frankincense> according to the Greek proverb.

I don't avoid hiStory because it is not on "my side", but because I don't like to live in the past.

Furthermore: You don't "dig" present, because it is not easy to twist, as with your hiSTORY. And you all avoid the PRESENT.... :-)

Finallt, kostas, stop spaming me with all that copy paste propaganda.

tell me, with short sentense your strongest "FACT" and let discuss about it, before we go on the next one. To put all we think that we know about that and reach final conclusion. Opening 100 questions, without will to reach conclusion EVEN at one, is a sign that you don't have firm stance on ANY.

[Mygdonia]

Quirky posts from a very strange and weird person. No wonder your nation is a disgrace whenn it has citizens like you.

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by rtgs

I don't avoid hiStory because it is not on "my side", but because I don't like to live in the past.

Furthermore: You don't "dig" present, because it is not easy to twist, as with your hiSTORY. And you all avoid the PRESENT.... :-)

Finallt, kostas, stop spaming me with all that copy paste propaganda.

tell me, with short sentense your strongest "FACT" and let discuss about it, before we go on the next one. To put all we think that we know about that and reach final conclusion. Opening 100 questions, without will to reach conclusion EVEN at one, is a sign that you don't have firm stance on ANY.

Budy,you are an extraordinary case of trol who should be exhibited in an antropological museum.OK,let's play the game with your rules.I'll post every time one single fact.Read this book below (Reise durch das innere der Europäischen Türkei=Travels through the interior of European Turkey) ,written by Heinrich Barth,a German who visited your country in 1862 and didn't find any ethnic <Macedonians> but only Bulgarians:



The village Kremme near Negotino is inhabited half by Muslims and half by Bulgarians and the river Vardar is called by its both Bulgarian and Greek names,Axios and Vardar:


The village Rosdene near Prilep is inhabited by 40 Bulgarian families.Notice also the name Saloniki,not Solun:


The Bulgarian population of Prilep is 11.000:


The mountain Peristeri near Monastir is called by the Bulgarians <Sucha Gora> = Dry mountain.Notice also the Greek toponyms Florina instead Lerin,Monastir instead Bitola and the village Khristohori.Really,this toponym exist till today in your country or you changed it to a Bulgarian name?



The villages Banitsa and Zaburdero are inhabited by Rayas or Bulgarians,but not <Macedonians> :


Now can you explain me please,why this German didn't find any ethnic <Macedonians> in 1864?Were they hiden somewhere?Were they abducted by aliens?Was he bribed?By whom and why?What were the incentives of those who bribed him and why the <ethnic Macedonians> didn't the same,so that someone would write something in their favor and mention their existence?