Refuting FYROMIAN propaganda

[Ptolemy]

This will be a thread to refute false claims made by FYROMIAN propagandists.

..Herodotus, the Father of History, relates how the Macedonian king Alexander I (498-454 BC), a Philhellene (that is "a friend of the Greeks" and logically a non-Greek),...

The poor propagandists here ignore facts, like at that time the term Philhellene had the connotation of 'Philopatris' (he who loves his fatherland) or simply a patriot. Examples:

i) Xenophon called Agesilaus, the king of Sparta a 'Philhellene' , saying exactly "Again, if it is honourable in one who is a Greek to be a friend to the Greeks,". If we followed the absurb logic of FYROMIAN propagandists, Agesilaus must be considered also...a non-Greek.

ii) Plato in his republic, is urging the leaders of Greece to be 'Philhellenes"

'And won't they be philhellenes, lovers of Greeks, and will they not regard all Greece as their own and not renounce their part in the holy places common to all Greeks ?”

' Greeks, however, we shall say, are still by nature the friends of Greeks when they act in this way'

iii) Isocrates called Jason of Pherae and Evagoras of Cyprus, 'Philhellenes'.

[Ptolemy]

GEORGIOS I - THE KING OF THE GREEKS
Salonika, October 31, 1912
"Taking into account the developed need for the urgent and temporary
organization of the administration of the territories in Macedonia,
occupied by the Greek army."

Sincce the decree was translated into English from Greek and the propagandists didnt show the original decree, the greek word used could be the verb "καταλαμβάνω" or the word "katalifthisses" (participle). "Katalamvano" (the verb) means "to take possession of".
In other words the King referred to the "territories that the Greek Army
took possession of after military action" from the Ottomans, i.e. liberated.


Furthermore, back then the term "occupied" was used because of the agreement between the allies (Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria) to define the new borders based on the territories that would be occupied by their armies at the end of the war. In other words as you understand , it had nothing to do with whether or not Macedonia is Greek but it was used because it was the criterion established by the allies.

For the discomfort of FYROMIAN propagandists the same verb "καταλαμβάνω" was used in series of effective military actions from greek army.

In this link showing the history of Greece, take a look how many times the verb "καταλαμβάνω" is used, Katerini, Kozani, Karpenisi, Grevena, Samothraki, Corfu, Samos, etc etc..

Should according to FYROMIAN propagandists consider ALL of these undisputed Greek places also not Greek????

http://www.phys.uoa.gr/~nektar/histo...a_abstract.htm

[nsminc]

Yeah I've noticed how they twist and skew things to 1) create confusion
2) make things look to favour they're side.

Unbelievable logic.

[akritas]

The Slavs of the FYROM as usual are wrong.

Plato, Republic

.....And won't they be philhellenes, lovers of Greeks, and will they not regard all Greece as their own and not renounce their part in the holy places common to all Greeks ?” “Most certainly.” “Will they not then regard any difference with Greeks....
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...t.+Rep.+5.470e

Xenophon

...Again, if it is honourable in one who is a Greek to be a friend to the Greeks, what other general has the world seen unwilling to take a city when he thought that it would be sacked, or who looked on victory in a war against Greeks as a disaster.....
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext lookup=Xen.+Ages.+7.1Isocrates

[Ptolemy]

To show you once more what kind of falsification FYROMian propagandists are doing, use your own logic to this part of your post.

Though Alexander spoke also Greek, loved Homer, and respected his tutor Aristotle, there is much evidence that HE HATED the Greeks of his day, just like his father Philip II. Philip had razed to the ground the Greek cities on Macedonian territory (including all 32 Greek cities in Chalcidice) and enslaved their inhabitants.

The question here is...how far stupid can someone be to claim that Alexander hated the Greeks when...

i) he has said himself many times he is greek by descend and admirer of Greek culture

ii) his speeches show the exact contrary of the claim (i wonder if the writer has ever read Alexander speech after chaeronia)

ii) he uses the language of his "hated" enemies as official language wherever he passes from.

iii) now Follow the syllogism.

As you know, people in history have conquered territories and have tried to influence them by spreading their cultures.

Mexicans for example, speak spanish, because they were conquered by Spaniards.
Other examples are:
Algerians...they speak French because they were influenced by the French.
Antilles------->Netherlands
India-------->Brittain
Brazil------->Portugal
and so on..

Here is my question:

Can the author give me ONE example in world history from people who have conquered a territory and have spread.... a foreign culture and/or language and even worst...a culture and language of people they hated?????

Or let me spell it out to you otherwise...Fact is Macedonians conquered lands in 3 continents as did Rome and even more England. The Greek language was used in ALL inscriptions and writings in the areas controlled by Macedonia, just like Latin and English were used in the lands conquered by the Romans and English. Why would supposedly 'non-Greeks' solely use Greek, and especially a language of people they "hated"???

What kind of conqueror goes and spread the so called "hated" culture and language globally?

and another proof of how much Alexander 'hated' Greeks.

Pseudo-Kallisthenes 1.15.1-4

And when things at Pella were back to normal, Alexander came by the statue of his father and spoke loud:

`Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Hellenic
Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians /and of the
Thebans and of the Athenenians/ and of all the Hellenic peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Hellenes we should not be slaves to barbarians

[WannabTrueMacedonian]

You guys are truly the ones that are brainwashed

Explain this,


[Book II - Battle of Issus] "Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian." Arrian.

[akritas]

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

You guys are truly the ones that are brainwashed

Explain this,


[Book II - Battle of Issus] "Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian." Arrian.

Arrian speaks for the Greek mercenaries. Actually what were the ancient Macedonians show in other fragment that you avoid to said something

"He sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander, son of Philip, and the Greeks, save the Lacedaimonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia."
[Arr. I, 16, 7]

"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury; ... (and) I have been appointed leader of the Greeks ..."
[Arr., Anab. Alex. II, 14, 4]

[WannabTrueMacedonian]

"Such were the activities of the Romans and of Philip on land during that summer. At the beginning of the same summer, the fleet, commanded by the legate Lucius Apustius, left Corcyra, rounded Cape Malea, and joined King Attalus of Scyllaeum, in the region of Hermoine. Hitherto the resentment of the Athenian community against Philip had been kept in check by fear; but now, with the hope of assistance ready at hand, they gave free rein to their anger. There is never any lack at Athenian tongues ready and willing to stir up the passion of the common people; this kind of oratory is nurtured by the applause of the mob in all free communities; but this is especially true of Athens, where eloquence has the greatest influence. The popular assembly immediately carried a proposal that all statues of Philip and all portraits of him, with their inscriptions, and also those of his ancestors of either sex, should be removed and destroyed; that all feast-days, rites, and priesthoods instituted in honour of Philip or his ancestors should be deprived of sanctity; that even the sites of any memorials or inscriptions in his honour should be held accursed, and that it should not be lawful thereafter to decide to set up or dedicate on those sites any of those things which might lawfully be set up or dedicated on an undefiled site; that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies, their armies and navies, they should on every occasion HEAP CURSES and execrations on Philip, his family and his realm, his forces on land and sea, AND THE WHOLE RACE AND NAME OF THE MACEDONIANS." Livy

[Harper_Reston]

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

You guys are truly the ones that are brainwashed

Ironic! A brainwashed Bulgarian is calling others brainwashed.

In the year 200 B.C. the Macedonian King Philip V sent Macedonian ambassadors to the council of the Aetolian League, the 'Panaetolian Congress', to try to prevent the Romans from inducing the Aetolians to change their allegiance from Philip V to the Romans in their 2nd Macedonian War. At the council was also the Roman representative sent by the consul, and also a deputation from the Athenians who were the Romans' allies at this time. A hearing was first given to the Macedonians. The Macedonian delegates said:


'..........the same reasons which led them (the Aetolians) to make peace with Philip should lead them to keep that peace, once it had been established'.
'Or do you prefer' said one of the the delegates, '.......
................ . It is sheer madness to expect anything will remain in the same state if aliens, more widely separated from you by language, customs and laws than by distance over sea and land, obtain control over these parts.
Philip's rule ............. . Allow the foreign legions to settle down in these parts and take the yoke on your shoulders;
then it will be too late and all in vain to call on Philip as your ally, when you have the Roman for your lord. The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided or united by unimportant causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for reasons which change from day to day, but by nature - and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end .........'


Livy, XXXI.28 - XXXI.29
'Rome and the Mediterranean '

"...Annibas put himself under oath to Xenophanis (embassador of PhilipposII), in front of the all gods that Macedonia and the rest of Hellas have..."
Polybios VII 9, 1-3
Historian, 200-120BC

"...Agelaos from Nafpaktos was the first to address to the king (PhilipposV) and the present allies, wishing to stop the wars between Hellenes..."
Polybios V 103, 9
Historian, 200-120BC

Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your OWN RACE, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation....So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay neutral and do not side with the unjust."
Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Historian, 200-120BC

"This is a sworn treaty made between us, Hannibal the general, Mago, Myrkan, Barmokar and all other Carthaginian senators present with him, and all Carthaginians serving under him, on the one side, and Xenophanes the Athenian, son of Kleomachos, the envoy whom King Philip, son of Demetrios, sent to us on behalf of himself, and the Macedonians and allies, on the other side. `In the presence of ZEUS, HERA and APOLLO; in the presence of the Genius of Carthage; ...and in the presence of all the gods who possess Carthage; and in the presence of ALL THE GODS who possess Macedonia AND THE REST OF HELLAS;
and in the presence of all the gods of the army who preside over this oath. Thus said Hannibal the general and all the Carthaginian senators along with him and the Carthaginian soldiers: ...That King Philip and the Macedonians AND the REST OF THE HELLENES who are their allies shall
protect the Carthaginians,...King Philip and the Macedonians AND the OTHER HELLENES who are their allies shall be protected and guarded by
the Carthaginians..."
(Polybios 7.9.1-7; Treaty of alliance between king Philip V of Macedonia and Hannibal)

[akritas]

WannabTrueMacedonian
In order to answer you in the Livy fragment must show me your arguments from the two quotes of the Aryan regarding the connection between Macedonians and Greeks via Great Alexander speeches.