Demosthenes and Macedonians

[Orphic_Hymn]

The statement found in Demosthenes' 3rd Philippic has been used time and time again by our beloved Northern neighbors, in an attempt to indicate that the Makedones were not considered Hellines..
It is actually this quote that has been used:

Demosthenes, 3rd Philippic 31

But if some slave or superstitious bastard had wasted and squandered what he had no right to, heavens! how much more monstrous and exasperating all would have called it! Yet they have no such qualms about Philip and his present conduct, though he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honor, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave.

But did Demosthenes and the rest of the Hellinic world actually consider Philip and thus the Makedones as 'foreigners' which some strive to support based on the use of the term 'barbarian' ?

Demosthenes clarifies this for us in a different text.. titled, "On the False Embassy".. there we read:

Demosthenes, On the False Embassy 304-306


304] Was it not Aeschines? Who persuaded you to send embassies almost as far as the Red Sea, declaring that Greece was the object of Philip's designs, and that it was your duty to anticipate the danger and not be disloyal to the Hellenic cause? Was it not Eubulus who proposed the decree, and the defendant Aeschines who went as ambassador to the Peloponnesus? What he said there after his arrival, either in conversation or in public speeches, is best known to himself: what he reported on his return I am sure you have not forgotten.

305] For he made a speech in which he repeatedly called Philip a barbarian and a man of blood. He told you that the Arcadians were delighted to hear that Athens was really waking up and attending to business.
He related an incident which, he said, had filled him with deep indignation.
On his journey home he had met Atrestidas travelling from Philip's court with some thirty women and children in his train. He was astonished, and inquired of one of the travellers who the man and his throng of followers were;

306] and when he was told that they were Olynthian captives whom Atrestidas was bringing away with him as a present from Philip, he thought it a terrible business, and burst into tears. Greece, he sorrowfully reflected, is in evil plight indeed, if she permits such cruelties to pass unchecked. He counselled you to send envoys to Arcadia to denounce the persons who were intriguing for Philip; for, he said, he had been informed that, if only Athens would give attention to the matter and send ambassadors, the intriguers would promptly be brought to justice.

Here we learn that Aeschines, Philip's major supporter and the man that was accused of having been bribed by Philip for this very support.. had actually previously given him the title 'barbarian'..

But what was the reason, was it actually his origin or was there a totally different reason ???
The texts again provide...

Demosthenes, On the False Embassy

308] And as for Philip,—why, good Heavens, he was a Greek of the Greeks, the finest orator and the most thorough—going friend of Athens you could find in the whole world.

And yet there were some queer, ill-conditioned fellows in Athens who did not blush to abuse him, and even to call him a barbarian!


309] Is it, then, conceivable that the man who made the earlier of those speeches should also have made the later unless he had been corrupted? Is it possible that the same man who was then inflamed with abhorrence of Atrestidas on account of those Olynthian women and children, should now be content to cooperate with Philocrates, who brought free-born Olynthian ladies to this city for their dishonor?

This quote gives us very interesting information...

1) Demosthenes' sarcastic comment leaves us no doubts that the ironic statement of Philip being a Greek among Greeks, which some queer, ill-conditioned fellows abused him by calling him a barbarian ..(which includes both himself, Hyperides and the rest of those tht formed the group against Philip but also Aeschines that was in the other group in favor of Philip) had little to do with his bloodline but with his actions and what the Atheneans perceived as cultural inferiority in general.
We already know from Isokrates' Panegyricus that the Atheneans took such great pride in their accomplishments that they actually went as far as to state that thanks to them, the denomination Hellenes had become synonymous to their accomplishments, intelligence and culture and not strictly an indication of their race.

Isocrates Panegyrikos 50
"And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied to those who share our culture than to those who share a common blood.

Hence why Demosthenes makes the sarcastic reference to Philip's "exquisite" skills in orations and the obvious political statement related to his "friendship" towards Athens.

2) The enslavement and dishonoring of the Olynthian women and children made Aeschines inflamed with abhorrence and burst into tears..


But what was the reason Aeschines, Demosthenes or any other Athenean would even care about some Olynthian women and children when we know that Olynthos had previously revolted against Athens and formed a 'league' of its own(Chalcidic League) ?

The answer is once again provided from Demosthenes and his speech titled "Against Meidias"

Demosthenes, "Against Meidias" 47

Law

If anyone assaults any child or woman or man, whether free or slave, or commits any unlawful act against anyone of these, any Athenian citizen who desires so to do, being qualified, may indict him before the Judges; and the Judges shall bring the case before the Heliastic Court within thirty days from the date of the indictment, unless some public business prevents, in which case it shall be brought on the earliest possible date. Whomsoever the Court shall condemn, it shall at once assess the punishment or the fine which he is considered to deserve. In all cases where an indictment is entered, as the law directs, if anyone fails to prosecute, or after prosecution fails to obtain one fifth of the votes of the jury, he shall pay a thousand drachmas to the Treasury. If he is fined for the assault, he shall be imprisoned until the fine is paid, provided that the offence was committed against a freeman.�

While the use of the word "assault" in the translation may not be clear, in the original the terminology is..
'hubristai' from 'hubrizw' = wax wanton, run riot, in the use of superior strength or power in sensual indulgence.

We easily come to the conclusion that Philip was titled barbarian NOT due to his 'foreign' origin, but just as we had previously seen in the face of Archelaos II... due to his actions, actions which the Atheneans considered so immoral, so vulgar, so brutal that they had strict laws to prevent such activities from taking place in their city.

[akritas]

Great work Orphic_Hymn .
Just to add some quotes in your arguments

1
Demosthenes wrote nine speeches against Philip. In three of them he calls Philip a barbarian.

In the Third Olynthiac(l6) he says,

"Is he not an enemy, does he nor occupy our lands, is he not a barbarian or whatever somebody may say about him?"

This last phrase "or whatever somebody ma!' say about him" proves that the word "barbarian" is used as an insult and not as an ethnic description. Demosthenes thus described Philip' s behaviour and nor his origins. If Philip was a non-Greek, a barbarian, this word would not have been an insult. Moreover Philip was a member of the Ilelphic Amphictyonic 1eague in which only Greeks were admitted.

2
Demosthenes countered Aeschines, who was the leader of the pro-Macedonian party in Athens. If Philip was a barbarian no pro- Macedonian party would have been formed in Greece and more specifically in Athens.



3.
Polybius the greatest Greek historian after Thucydides, sees Dernothenes' insults for what they really are:

"Although Demosthenes can be praised for rnany things, he must also be criticized because, thoughtlessly and unwisely, he dishonored and discredited the best of the Greeks" (XVII, 14, 1-12).

[pankration]

Demosthenes was less than honorable himself. He was paid a lot of money to muster mercenaries to fight Philip at Charonea but very few ever showed up. A scandal followed but Demosthenes' forced flight clouded the issue. He did more harm to the Athenians than Philip did. His Philipics are beautiful examples of language. I've read them and am in awe of how he spoke. But make no mistake about it, his was a rant against Philip on a very personal level. That's why this aspect of skop "evidence" is meaningless.

[Ptolemy]

Macedonian kings were PROUD of their Greek blood, and it was ONLY JAUNDICED opponents like Demosthenes the Athenian who ventured to call them "barbarians." They claimed descent from Hêrakles through the Dorian Kings of Argos, and they learned the tales of Troy and of Odysseus, and the songs of the Greek lyric poets, as they learned their letters. Fifty years before Alexander was born, a King of Macedon had been proud to give a home to the aged "modernist" playwright, Euripides, eighty years old and sick and tired of a democracy which had led Athens into defeat and revolution, and whose philistines accused Euripides of preaching atheism and immorality..

"Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic Empire" by A. R. Burn; Macmillan, 1948, p.4

A Persian offer of 300 talents was privately accepted by Demosthenes, who employed it for purposes compatible with mutual Athenian-Persian interests in thwarting Macedonian ascendancy

"The Pre-Islamic Middle East" of Martin Sicker, 2000, Page 102

In Greece proper nevertheless, there remained a number of people like Demosthenes, who had in no way renounce their HATRED of Macedon. They did not lack the means to take action: the new king of Persia, Darius III Codomannus, whose reign started in 336, anxious to war off the threat of a Macedonian invasion, liberally distributed among the Greeks funds that were to buy consciences and cover the expenses of war against Alexander

"Hellenistic Civilization" by Francois Chamoux, P. 9

[Petros Houhoulis]

From: The Internet Classics Archive | Demosthenes by Plutarch
Demosthenes was clearly bribed by the Persian court.

"...But Demosthenes, being neither fit to be relied on for courage in arms, as Demetrius says, nor on all sides inaccessible to bribery (for how invincible soever he was against the gifts of Philip and the Macedonians, yet elsewhere he lay open to assault, and was overpowered by the gold which came down from Susa and Ecbatana)..."

And yet this same guy, who despised Phillips' gifts, insulted Phillip, when as an ambassador of Athens to Macedonia, he was not entartained as much as the others:

"...But in other respects, Philip entertained him not so honourably as the rest, neither did he show him the same kindness and civility with which he applied himself to the party of Aeschines and Philocrates. So that, when the others commended Philip for his able speaking, his beautiful person, nay, and also for his good companionship in drinking, Demosthenes could not refrain from cavilling at these praises; the first, he said, was a quality which might well enough become a rhetorician, the second a woman, and the last was only the property of a sponge; no one of them was the proper commendation of a prince..."

That was not a surprise from a man that:

"...It was evident, even in time of peace, what course Demosthenes would steer in the commonwealth; for whatever was done by the Macedonian, he criticized and found fault with, and upon all occasions was stirring up the people of Athens, and inflaming them against him..."

That same man, who was handling his tongue bravely as a sword, was also handling his sword as cowardly as a tongue:

"...But in the fight he did nothing honourable, nor was his performance answerable to his speeches. For he fled, deserting his place disgracefully, and throwing away his arms, not ashamed, as Pytheas observed, to belie the inscription written on his shield, in letters of gold, "With good fortune."..."

And was probably aware of the conspiracy behind Phillips' murder, which could have possibly been ordered either by himself, or by the Persians, throught him.

"...Demosthenes had secret intelligence of the death of Philip, and laying hold of this opportunity to prepossess the people with courage and better hopes for the future, he came into the assembly with a cheerful countenance, pretending to have had a dream that presaged some great good fortune for Athens; and, not long after, arrived the messengers who brought the news of Philip's death..."

And yet, he did it again; He insulted Alexander, and he was willing to ally with the devil (Persia) against Macedonia:

"...Demosthenes ruled supreme in the popular assembly, and wrote letters to the Persian officers who commanded under the king in Asia, inciting them to make war upon the Macedonian, calling him child and simpleton..."

And while the Thibeans were expecting the Athenian reinforcements, they were destined to face their punishment, which was entirely fair, since they were once again allied with the Persians against Macedonia, as they were allied with the Persians against the rest of the Greeks in all the Persian wars:

"...But as soon as Alexander had settled matters in his own country, and came in person with his army into Boeotia, down fell the courage of the Athenians, and Demosthenes was hushed; the Thebans, deserted by them, fought by themselves, and lost their city..."

Nevertheless, he expressed his cowardice once again: (Or was that just shame for his own insults against Phillip and Alexander?)

"...After which, the people of Athens, all in distress and great perplexity, resolved to send ambassadors to Alexander, and amongst others, made choice of Demosthenes for one; but his heart failing him for fear of the king's anger, he returned back from Cithaeron, and left the embassy..."

But Alexander was no longer willing to entertain him:

"...In the meantime, Alexander sent to Athens, requiring ten of their orators to be delivered up to him, as Idomeneus and Duris have reported, but as the most and best historians say, he demanded these eight only,- Demosthenes, Polyeuctus, Ephialtes, Lycurgus, Moerocles, Demon, Callisthenes, and Charidemus..."

But he didn't bother to continue to insult Alexander afterwards:

"...It was upon this occasion that Demosthenes related to them the fable in which the sheep are said to deliver up their dogs to the wolves; himself and those who with him contended for the people's safety being, in his comparison, the dogs that defended the flock, and Alexander "the Macedonian arch-wolf."..."

But Alexander spared him and the whole of Athens, for once again.

Old instincts die hard thought:

"...It was not long after that Harpalus fled from Alexander, and came to Athens out of Asia; knowing himself guilty of many misdeeds into which his love of luxury had led him, and fearing the king, who was now grown terrible even to his best friends. Yet this man had no sooner addressed himself to the people, and delivered up his goods, his ships, and himself to their disposal, but the other orators of the town had their eyes quickly fixed upon his money, and came in to his assistance, persuading the Athenians to receive and protect their suppliant. Demosthenes at first gave advice to chase him out of the country, and to beware lest they involved their city in a war upon an unnecessary and unjust occasion. But some few days after, as they were taking an account of the treasure, Harpalus, perceiving how much he was pleased with a cup of Persian manufacture, and how curiously he surveyed the sculpture and fashion of it, desired him to poise it in his hand, and consider the weight of the gold. Demosthenes, being amazed to feel how heavy it was, asked him what weight it came to. "To you," said Harpalus, smiling, "it shall come with twenty talents." And presently after, when night drew on, he sent him the cup with so many talents. Harpalus, it seems, was a person of singular skill to discern a man's covetousness by the air of his countenance, and the look and movements of his eyes. For Demosthenes could not resist the temptation, but admitting the present, like an armed garrison, into the citadel of his house, he surrendered himself up to the interest of Harpalus. The next day, he came into the assembly with his neck swathed about with wool and rollers, and when they called on him to rise up and speak, he made signs as if he had lost his voice. But the wits, turning the matter to ridicule, said that certainly the orator had been seized that night with no other than a silver quinsy. And soon after, the people, becoming aware of the bribery, grew angry, and would not suffer him to speak, or make any apology for himself, but ran him down with noise; and one man stood up, and cried out, "What, ye men of Athens, will you not hear the cup-bearer?" So at length they banished Harpalus out of the city; and fearing lest they should be called to account for the treasure which the orators had purloined, they made a strict inquiry, going from house to house; only Callicles, the son of Arrhenidas, who was newly married, they would not suffer to be searched, out of respects, as Theopompus writes, to the bride, who was within.

Demosthenes resisted the inquisition, and proposed a decree to refer the business to the court of Areopagus, and to punish those whom that court should find guilty. But being himself one of the first whom the court condemned, when he came to the bar, he was fined fifty talents, and committed to prison; where, out of shame of the crime for which he was condemned, and through the weakness of his body, growing incapable of supporting the confinement, he made his escape, by the carelessness of some and by the contrivance of others of the citizens. We are told, at least, that he had not fled far from the city when, finding that he was pursued by some of those who had been his adversaries, he endeavoured to hide himself. But when they called him by his name, and coming up nearer to him, desired he would accept from them some money which they had brought from home as a provision for his journey, and to that purpose only had followed him, when they entreated him to take courage, and to bear up against his misfortune, he burst out into much greater lamentation, saying, "But how is it possible to support myself under so heavy an affliction, since I leave a city in which I have such enemies, as in any other it is not easy to find friends." He did not show much fortitude in his banishment, spending his time for the most part in Aegina and Troezen, and, with tears in his eyes, looking towards the country of Attica..."

After the death of Alexander, he managed to return to Athens, and to excite his fellow Athenians to begin another war against Macedonia, which was equally disastrous. In the end, he fled again:

"...Upon the report that Antipater and Craterus were coming to Athens, Demosthenes with his party took their opportunity to escape privily out of the city; but sentence of death was, upon the motion of Demades, passed upon them by the people. They dispersed themselves, flying some to one place, some to another; and Antipater sent about his soldiers into all quarters to apprehend them..."

But Antipater continued to pursue him, and he poisoned himself in order to avoid a worse kind of death, like the one Antipater reserved for Olympiad, Alexanders' mother...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Well, guess who is the modern equivalent of Demosthenes, according to Victor Davis Hanson. Ironically enough, all three of them are equally discredited lately...

VDH's Private Papers::Voices in the Wilderness

[pankration]

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

Well, guess who is the modern equivalent of Demosthenes, according to Victor Davis Hanson. Ironically enough, all three of them are equally discredited lately...

VDH's Private Papers::Voices in the Wilderness

I wonder what Victor Hanson is saying now (the article is from 2002)? Like most quasi-historian war mongers he manipulates the facts without checking them. I'll focus on Philip and Alexander first.
Philip had the most Hellenic court in all of Hellas. He courted philosophers (ARISTOTLE), artists, scientists etc. He didn't need Athens' intellectuals because he already had them.
Philip either invented, modified or commissioned seige machines. In fact, it is recorded that he came up with the principle of torque on the catapults. Athens wouldn't know a seige machine if it had been brought into the temple of the Parthenon by Zeus himself.
If it wasn't for Alexander, Hellenism would have lived and died in the confines of Greece. The western world, modelled on Greek ideals ONLY exists because of Alexander.
As for Hanson's other arguments, he draws weak comparisons.

[akritas]

THE MISINTERPRETATION OF DEMOSTHENES' POSITION AGAINST THE MACEDONIANS

by Nikolas Martis from the book The Falsification of Macedonian History


Outside of what I have already written regarding the Greekness of the Macedonians, and the view of the historian Beloch that, «the purest Greek tribe must be the Macedonians, with the physical characteristics of the Indoeuropean Greek race» (blond hair, tall stature)!, I shall explain how the phrase of Demosthenes in connection with the Macedonians has been misinterpreted. I believe that this misunderstanding was perpetrated by the enemies of the Macedonians and has been adopted in good faith by others, without examination of the actual meaning of the words in the speech of Demosthenes.

Before I come to Demosthenes, however, it is necessary to show what was the situation in Greece at that time, in order to explain, a) why the Macedonians and the Epirotes were called by these names, while other Greek peoples such as the Athenians, Thebans, Thessalians, etc., were also called Greeks, and b) what is the reason for the enmity towards Philip of only certain political orators such as Demosthenes. Ancient Macedonia, like other areas of ancient Greece, constituted a separate state and in this case a kingdom. Corresponding states were Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Corfu, Thasos, etc. The political difference between Macedon and the city states of southern Greece, a difference already in existence in the 5th century B.C. and something that was taken seriously at the time, was the Macedonian form of government, that is to say a kingdom. The other Greek city states had either a democratic or an oligarchic form of government, while the Spartans preserved the institution of the double kingship, with all the limitations imposed upon it by the power of the ephors.

The distinction between Macedonians and Greeks which appears in the ancient writers is due to the following reasons. Until the 7th century B. C. every Greek people was called by its own name, such as Thessalians, Boeotians, Aetolians, etc. In the 7th century the name of Greece is generalized starting from Phthiotis. That the space inhabited by the Greek peoples was later named Greece, is clear also from Herodotus: «At that time, Argos was the first city among these which are found in today's Greece»(Herodotus I, 1, 2). In the beginning the Macedonians comprised many kingdoms, such as the Lyncestians, Elimiots, etc., their extent defined by physical boundaries. Around 700 B.C. the Macedonian State vas formed, where central authority was exercised by the kingdom of Aegae, forming a kind of federation with other kingdoms.

Because the Macedonians, just as the Epirotes, lived in areas removed from and of difficult access for the other Greeks, caused by the high mountains interposed, they could not directly participate in the feverish political and national life of the southern Greeks during the classical period. Removed and isolated they preserved like the Epirotes their own name, while in southern Greece the general name Greeks prevailed, together with the particular names of their tribes. The geographical position of Macedonia, its distance from the intellectual centre of Athens and the lack of communication, caused the rest of the Greeks to consider the Macedonians before the time of Philip II, as not belonging from a political viewpoint to Greece proper, while simultaneously they disliked their political system.

The fact that in the space of ancient Greece there were many city states made no difference. Their citizens were Greeks because they had the same language (Greek), the same gods (the twelve Olympians) and the same religion. They fought between them, but they regularly united against a common danger. Then, particl1lar conceptions and political passions were put aside and a panhellenic conscience prevailed all over Greece. It is what characterizes today's Greeks as well, and constitute. one of the most significant proofs of the continuation of the Greek people.

The modern Greeks have the same virtues and vices as those of their ancestors. As for the particular names of the tribes, they are still in use today to denote the inhabitants of a specific geographical area of Greece. The continuous historical presence of the Greak tribes in Greece does not permit any other people to be arbitrarily called Greeks and the citizens Athenians, Peloponnesians, Macedonians, Thessalians, etc. The participation of Alexander I in the Olympic Games was an important event of panhellenic significance for the contact and communication between the Macedonians and the other Greeks, an event decisive for the destiny of Hellenism. The intellectual and artistic world of southern Greece that was more developed did not remain indifferent when this opening towards Macedonia took place and thus a multitude of artists, wise men and scientists found a response in the Macedonian public. This assimilation was completed in the 4th century B.C. The enormous economic boom and the capable leadership of the Macedonians contributed towards significant changes resulting in innovations and creations in every kind of art and craft, especially in metallurgy, painting and architecture, which became models even for the Romans as it is evident in the art works found in Pompei.

The successors of Alexander the Great gave a new impetus and created centres of science, art and learning renowned up to our days. This great transposition of the centre of Hellenism towards the north starts at the time of Philip II. His victories and the simultaneous decadence of the other Greek city states, created a psychological climate of envy and displeasure among the other Greeks and particularly the Athenians, where the public opinion of Greece was formed (even then I), against these politically and intellectually unknown Macedonians. All the accusations regarding the 'barbarism' of the Macedonians do not originate from philosophers, historians, poets or other writers, but from political orators and especially Athenians.

Demosthenes, the principal advecsary of Philip, addressing the Athenians said: «... are not all our strongholds in the hands of this man, and if he becomes master of this land shall we not suffer the worst?... Is he not an enemy? Doesn't he possess our lands? Is he not a barbarian? Does he not deserve the worst epithets?» (Demosthenes, Third Olynthiac, 16 )!

In his great anger Demosthenes talked exactly as they do all who abuse' someone with a great many ornamental epithets-is he not this one? Is he not the other? what more can one say? I think that Demosthenes used the phrase 'is he not a barbarian?' only to abuse Philip and this view is strengthened by the fact that in another speech, the Second Olynthian,

Demosthenes praises the Macedonian state, saying: «Surely this Macedonian power and rule was of no small help against the Olynthians during the generalship of Timotheus; again it was equally so when it allied itself with the Olynthians against the Potideans; and now when the Thessalians are ailing and troubled it helped the struggle against the house of the tyrants))( Demosthenes, Second Olynthiac, 14). Besides, Demosthenes would never accuse anybody as a barbarian (non-Greek), because the same accusation, a barbarian descent, was leveled against him. Says Aeschines in his speech Against Ctesiphon: « ... the slanderer [Demosthenes] was born .. , and from his mother he is a Scythian barbarian, Greek only in speech ...»( Aischines, Agains t Ctesiphon, 172')

Demosthenes spoke with anger and passion against Philip. This may be gathered from a letter of Isocrates towards Philip II, where he calls Demosthenes and the other orators who were against Philip, 'raging demagogues'(Isocrates, To Philip, 129). Isocrates also tells Philip that, «... all the Greeks wil be grateful to you, these who are directly affected and the descendants of the others, because through you they will get rid of barbarian tyranny and receive Hellenic attention»(Isocrates, To Philip, 154). We should not ignore the fact that both Demosthenes as well as Isocrates were orators, and in this capacity they often misused their freedom by indulging in verbal hyperboles. Equally, Isocrates makes a clear distinction between Macedonians and barbarians, as it is apparent in another point in his speech, saying: «And I say that you must benefit the Greeks, reign among the Macedonians, and rule more barbarians»(Isocrates, To Philip, 154). This same Isocrates elsewhere in his speech writes: «... and you as if born free ranging, consider the whole of Greece as your country, just as the man who gave you birth»(Isocrates, To Philip, 127).

In 217 B.C. Agelaus from Naupactos speaking at a meeting where Philip V and the representatives of his allies were present, expressed thewish that the wars between Greeks should stop(The Histories of Polybius, Y, 103, 9). Polybius says, «At that time you were rivals as to leadership and glory of the Achaeans and the men of the same race, the Macedonians, and their leader Philip»( The Histories of Polybius, IX, 37, 7)

for fair use only

[kzk842]

Something that not a lot of people know is that Demosthenes also called barbarian Aristogeiton that was an Athenian citizen.





"ούτω σκαιός εστί και βάρβαρος"

"he is awful and barbarian"

[akritas]

Can anyone make a search to find a quote of Demosthenis that state clear.............Peloponnesus and Hellas ?