History of the ancient Macedonian kingdom (split thread)

[antipater]

The history of the ancient Macedonian kingdom begins with Caranus,who wasthe first known king(808-778bc).The Macedonian dynasty Argeadae originated from Argos Orestikon ,a city located in south western Macedonia region of Orestis expended the kingdom and by the 5th century bc the Macedonians had forged a unified kingdom.As Macedonian appears on the internacional scene,the first coins with the king's name on them are made.
Macedonia had never been Greek and will never be
MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS

(edit by admin - please post references to your sources - this includes Greeks and Skopjian residents of Vardaska)

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by antipater

The history of the ancient Macedonian kingdom begins with Caranus,who wasthe first known king(808-778bc).The Macedonian dynasty Argeadae originated from Argos Orestikon ,a city located in south western Macedonia region of Orestis expended the kingdom and by the 5th century bc the Macedonians had forged a unified kingdom.As Macedonian appears on the internacional scene,the first coins with the king's name on them are made.
Macedonia had never been Greek and will never be
MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS

Antipater welcome to the FORUM first ....secondly it is time to educate your self :

1) The dynasty is called Temenidae and descends from Temenos the Dorian Greek who conquered Argos of Peloponnese. Watch Herodotus 5.22
2) Argeads leteraly means "sons of Argeus" (Patronym) and not "from Argos" (toponym) . The word for argives is αργείοι for all the cities named Argos in the Greek world ..after all Argos in Greek means fertile plain. So the Argeads were one of the many subtribes of the Macedonians (the real Macedonians) who initiated their expansion fro nthe Pieriean Mountains to the Bottean Plain
3) Caranus is a mythological feature introduced later by king Archelaus (with thwe help of the Athenean play writter Eyripides who presented in Aegae a drama for the Macedonians in Greek language named Archelaus)the first Temebid King of the Macedonians was Perdikkas I . It was Perdikkas who founded the first macedonian capital Aegae (Αιγές , a perfecty greek word which means "goats"). Perdikkas asked the Delphic oracle were to built his city and the Pythoness said were you'll see snow-white goats with silver corns sleep ...and that's why he named the city "place of the goats". Even today if you have an animal in home you will know that the animal (dog,cat,goat,sheep) goes to sleep to the best climet (post) of the territory you give him.
4) You are new in the FORUM so I don't get mad by your ignorance ...if you like search the history threads of this FORUM to learn who were the Ancient Macedonians (a North Western Greek Tribe) and who are you FYROMIANS (a mixe of Bulgarians , Serbs ,Albanians , Vlachs , Greeks etc ...)

[Petros Houhoulis]

Sorry Andrew, but you'd rather educate yourself first. What you quote is a piece of propaganda from the Ancient Macedonian court, designed to have them accepted amongst the Greeks. Herodotus, in another passage quoting the Dorians' heritage and traditions points out that the Dorians descendent from Macedonia and their name was Makednoi when they were still in Macedonia. In another passage, from the Macedonian traditions, he confirms that the forefather of the Macedonian kingdom was Orestis who was descending from Argos Orestikon, and his forefathers had come from even further north in Illyria.

Borza would make you look like a fool if you'd ever argue with him about the "Temenid ancestry". It was a blatant myth...

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

Sorry Andrew, but you'd rather educate yourself first. What you quote is a piece of propaganda from the Ancient Macedonian court, designed to have them accepted amongst the Greeks. Herodotus, in another passage quoting the Dorians' heritage and traditions points out that the Dorians descendent from Macedonia and their name was Makednoi when they were still in Macedonia. In another passage, from the Macedonian traditions, he confirms that the forefather of the Macedonian kingdom was Orestis who was descending from Argos Orestikon, and his forefathers had come from even further north in Illyria.

Borza would make you look like a fool if you'd ever argue with him about the "Temenid ancestry". It was a blatant myth...

Petros I wrote only what I found in Hammond ...
I know that Herodotus in 1.56 names the Dorians as "descending Macedonians". I have put the Temenid because that is what Herodotus , Thukydides and other historians have presented. Don't forget that when Alexander has participated at the Olympics and the Ellanodikes have judged him as an "Argive" ..of course there were other Argives from Argos in Olympia to say if Perdikkas I was or not Argive. And if you don't want myths and traditions I say that the Macedonians were a North Western Greek tribe being governed by a Doric family from Argos. The propaganda as you say it was "Caranus" after Archealus. One thing is the population one thing is the Royal family. The population , the Real Macedonians came from Orestis (Maketa) yes to the Mountain Boion as Makednoi and finaly to the Pierian Mountains (Macedonian Mountain ) and from there started their expansion AFTER the Temenids took control ..probably by marrying the daughter of the pre-Temenid Royal family which probably belonged to the main Macedonian subtribe , the Argeads.An analog thing hapens in Homer were the Atrid Menelaus becames king of Sparta AFTER marrying king Tyndarus' daughter Helen even if , Tindareus has living sons (the Dioscurids)The Macedonians initialy inhabited only in the "Old Kingdom" , which Herodotus says arrived were Aliacmon unites with Ludias , refering to the old Haliakmon Stream that devided modern Emathia in two . Later , with Alexander I they politicaly annexed the Molossian (Epeirotan , North Western Greek) tribes (as Hekataeus nemd them in 500 BC )of the later Upper Macedonia of Thoukydides (Lynkestae , Orestae ..etc)

About the Illyrian territory you're refering , I suppose you mention the fairy tale in book 8 (8.131 if I'm correct). Were it sais that Perdikkas and his two brothers came from Argos of Peloponnesus to the Illyrian territory , in the city Lebaia (which Hammond in the Macedonian State locates in Western Pieria , after an Inscription found there , saying Alevaeos). If you ask me I thing that the Greek writters before the Macedonian Hegeony tend to name the territories North West of Olympus "Illyria" and North East of him Thrace. dont forget that we consider Orpheus as Thracian when he was located in Leibithra in Pieria , just because before the Macedonian Expansion in the coasts of Pieria there were Thracian Tribes ,who later got driven away by the Macedonians). And before the Macedonian expansion the Illyrians were located in the the Vergina region driving away the Phrygians and cohabiting with the Bottieans of Crete. So when Perdikkas I arrived , the Central Macedonian coastal Plain was "Illyrian territory" ..that's why Herodotus says that the 3 brothers went to Illyria.

And Borza can't say nothing to me ...he must deal first with Hammond , Bengtson , A.R. Burn ....and all the other modern historians that considered as real the Temenid descent.

So when I'm refering to the royal house I'm not refering to the whole of the Macedonian Tribe even if at the end both of them have North Western Greek Descent.

So Petro can you explain to me why should the "Temenid" thesis be accused when all the Ancient and the Extra-Maggiority of modern scholars accept it ??
Were are Borza's proofs that it was a "propaganda" of the royal house ??

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by antipater

The history of the ancient Macedonian kingdom begins with Caranus,who wasthe first known king(808-778bc).The Macedonian dynasty Argeadae originated from Argos Orestikon ,a city located in south western Macedonia region of Orestis expended the kingdom and by the 5th century bc the Macedonians had forged a unified kingdom.As Macedonian appears on the internacional scene,the first coins with the king's name on them are made.
Macedonia had never been Greek and will never be
MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS

You made a very big mistake,my ignorant and brainwashed friend.As you was trying to <prove> that Macedonians hadn't nothing to do with Greece and they didn't descend from Peloponnesian Argos,you accepted that they talk Greek from 800 B.C. How?,will you ask.You said that the Macedonian dynasty originated from Argos Orestikon in southwestern Macedonia,forgoting that this name is Greek 100%.Thus,you accept that they had a city with Greek name from 800 BC,something that is unacceptable by all those who deny the Greekness of Macedonians.They claim that Macedonians were hellenized later due to their relations with the Greek colonies in the coasts of Macedonia.Their <hellenization>,according to all those <historians> started at least 3 centuries later,at the time of the Persian wars and was completed after Alexander's death.In Argos Orestikon weren't any Greek colonies,so how could the Macedonians call this city by a Greek name,if they weren't Greeks?

[Flipper]

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

Sorry Andrew, but you'd rather educate yourself first. What you quote is a piece of propaganda from the Ancient Macedonian court, designed to have them accepted amongst the Greeks. Herodotus, in another passage quoting the Dorians' heritage and traditions points out that the Dorians descendent from Macedonia and their name was Makednoi when they were still in Macedonia. In another passage, from the Macedonian traditions, he confirms that the forefather of the Macedonian kingdom was Orestis who was descending from Argos Orestikon, and his forefathers had come from even further north in Illyria.

Borza would make you look like a fool if you'd ever argue with him about the "Temenid ancestry". It was a blatant myth...

Borzas idea of the propaganda of the Royal court is baseless and has been critisized by Hammond and others. You can't label it as propaganda of the Macedonian court when such evidence does not exist. It is just a theory that cannot be prooved.

Second the Royal House and the Macedonians must be separated. What you mention about Herodotus is true, but at that time (16th-15th century BC) there were no Macedonian Kings and no unified Kindom. You have tribal organizations and the closest organized society that functions as a state is Elimia around the 14th-13th century BC.

[Flipper]

This is was Hammond said about Borza on his review on the Shadows of Olympus...

Strabo too gets short shrift; he is 'unreliable' (76 n. 44 and 87 n. 21). but the question of Strabo's sources is not tackled. B. makes no bones about his approach to such evidence; for he writes, to warn us, 'this account of early Macedonian history is based on the most sceptical analysis of literary traditions'. He is far from alone in this approach.
B. dismisses the Temenid descent of the Macedonian royal house as an example of 'ancestor-creation'. On his interpretation Herodotus visited the Macedonian court c. 460 B.C. and was taken in by the story that Alexander's claim to be Greek was upheld by the Olympic judges and that Alexander was joint-winner in the sprint a the Olympic Games of 496. 'I myself happen to know that they are Greeks, and I shall demonstrate it' wrote Herodotus (5.22). Did he not take the elementary precaution of checking up on so recent an event as the Olympic Games, for which records of
winners were kept? In one sense the issue is no more than academic. What really matters is that Herodotus, Thucydides and Isocrates - spanning more than a century -wrote of the Macedonian royal house not as 'Argeadae' (as B. does) but as 'Temenidae', and that the Macedonian kings worshipped at Aegeae and at Pella Heracles Patrous as their ancestor through Temenus.

[Andrew]

Hi Flipper ,

Since I don't have Hammond with me do you by any chance have his "The Macedonian State" with the frase were he locates Levaea in West Pieria after the inscription "Alevaeos" that he mentions. It's in the first 30 pages I think...
...Thanks in advance budy !!!!

[Andrew]

And another thing

Herodotus was Dorian himself so I guess he could understand if the Temenids were really Argives (Dorians) by their speech or not and in 5,22 he knows by his own knowledge that they are and does not base his conclusions only in what the Temenids themselves say !!

[akritas]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Hi Flipper ,

Since I don't have Hammond with me do you by any chance have his "The Macedonian State" with the frase were he locates Levaea in West Pieria after the inscription "Alevaeos" that he mentions. It's in the first 30 pages I think...
...Thanks in advance budy !!!!

Here......page 29 in Greek edition and 3 in English

This happened at a place called "Cauldron-town, Lebaea".
Where was Lebaea?
An answer was provided recently by the discovery of an inscription which recorded the dedication of a liberated slave to "The autochthonous Mother of the Gods at Alebea, a village (attached) to Elimea", a city of which we know the location.
If Lebaea and Alebea are the same place, which is probable, we can put Lebaea in the western part of Pieria.
This is consistent with our knowledge that the early home of the Macedonians was around Pieria and Olympus.