History of the ancient Macedonian kingdom (split thread)

[Petros Houhoulis]

Originally Posted by The Blood of Dorus

Some issues here which need to be addressed.

Firstly, it is unlikely that Alexander I competed at Olympia after he became king (i.e. in 498 BC) - his likely participation was either in 504 BC or 500 BC when he would have been a young man of around 20 to 25 years of age. When Herodotus mentions Alexander at the Olympics he merely calls him "Alexander" and not the king of Macedon. He in fact mentions the whole Olympic episode after introducing Alexander as the young son of the then king Amyntas in a scene where Alexander successfully contrives to have the Persian envoys to Amyntas' court murdered at a dinner held by his father. So it is likely that Alexander attended the Olympics as a young man before becoming king.

Borza makes the mistake in stating that Alexander took part in the Olympics after the Persian Wars and the episode of his assisting the Greek forces at Plataea with information on the disposition of Mardonius' forces in 479 BC. This would make Alexander's appearance at the Olympics in 476 BC, by which time he would have been around 50 years of age and extremely unlikely to tie for first in the stade race with much younger competitors. Borza'a assumption and dating of the episode is therefore very suspect as he simply makes Alexander's participation at this later date (i.e. 476 BC) as a basis for treating his participation as a special case and "reward" for his "philhellenism" during the Persian Wars.

Secondly, linking Alexander I's origins with Argos Orestikon is extremely tenuous. As Hecataeus and Strabo make clear, Argos Orestikon at the time of the Persian Wars was a polis of the Orestae who were a Molossian tribe and not part of Macedonia. The Orestae did not become politically incorporated into the kingdom of Macedon until Phillip's time. Alexander could only have become king if he was a member of the Macedones, and in particular from the Argeadae tribe (named after the legendary second king of Macedon and not Argos or Argos Orestikon).

The Temenids are legendary descendants of Herakles and are from Argos - the legend of their gaining ascendancy as royalty in Macedonia is linked to the legend of Karanos. The Temenids become the royal branch of the Argeadae tribe. Whether the legends have any truth or not to them is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that these legends where believed by both the Macedonians and their kings and by the other Greeks as well - and certainly by Herodotus, Thucydidies and the Elean Hellandokai at Olympia.

I do not care much about Borzas' assumptions. He might be right or wrong. Alexander, either prince or king, he certainly declared his royal ties to the Hellanodikai. The claim to the Argos Orestikon is as much tenuous as the Temenid origin, both are attested by Herodotus. The only trouble is that there is no motive for the Macedonians to lie about the origin from Argos Orestikon, but they had a motive to lie about the Temenid origins (so that they could prove themselves Greeks).

As for Argos Orestikon being part of Macedonia, I would like to remind you that both Hammond and Borza accepted that the Macedonians, before establishing Macedonia, they followed the route of the Aliakmon. Later they reached the place that they would forge into Macedonia. The Macedonians were CERTAINLY nomadic before reaching the Olympus, and they did descend from Illyria and passed from Argos Orestikon for a while. In fact, this is the earliest location that can be confirmed as a place where the Macedonians passed during their long trek, and this is why the Macedonian kings suggested that they descended from there.

Simple as that...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Petro yours remain simply an hypothesis with no ancient testimony to sostain it. You neglect Herodotus and Thoukydides and the Pythoness prophesy on the foundation of Aegae (Diododus Siculus) refering to Perdikkas I and Caranus (and with Caranus I all ready agree that he was a later introduction of Archealaus), you make Alexander partecipate in the Olympics at least after his 40s (that makes him a supernatural athlete) and continue to miss-translate the word Argeads ..I repeat it is a patronym non a Toponym. Stefanos Byzantios repeats that the citizens of all the cities named Argos are called αργείοι.And blood of dorus is right , the Orestes were the last to be incorporated in the macedonian kingdom , during Philips time . They were the ones that originaly drove away the Macedonians from "Maketa" and named their teritory Orestis.
Since we weren't there to see the Temenids migrating or not at least we must consider (always under critical spirit) the ancient testimonies. Ours remain an accademic dialog ...Antiquity believed the Temenid descend.

The hellanodike knew many Argos to put Alexander from ...Argos in Aetolia , homeric Thessaly was Argos Pelasgicon and many others . I don't think that Peloponnesian Argos was a random pick ...

Mine is not a hypothesis at all. Herodotus mentions it, just as he mentions the Temenid origin. The Temenid origin can be explained as propaganda, the Argos Orestikon cannot be explained as propaganda, as as for Argos Orestikon not being part of Macedonia, was Argos of the Peloponesse part of Macedonia either? Get your facts straight...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Originally Posted by Truth Bearer

Hold on lads Petros you don't properly explain the issue.Didn't they colonise Halkidiki,Thrace and Thasos from the southern Greeks who went upwards??And how about the Black Sea area wasn't that colonized also by sth Greeks??

Truth bearer, all of these colonies in Macedonia were Ionian (and I think all of them Athenian as well). Argos created colonies in other locations, and the Temenids would most likely end up in these locations, and NOT Macedonia.

This is the proof that the Macedonians were not "Hellenized". If they were Hellenized, their dialect would be Ionian, like the dialect of the colonists near them. Yet their dialect was Dorian, so...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Originally Posted by Truth Bearer

I do not agree with you Petros.As I said before Makedonia,Thrace and the Black Sea how were they colonized??Also in the Olympic Games Alexander I went as King not a prince.The question also bears that why would there be 2 Argos??

I repeat, the Hellenes (Dorians) were more or less the offspring of the Makednoi (Macedonians) who fled Macedonia and moved southwards. More or less all of the people that settled Greece in pre-history travelled there by land and by crossing the Bosphorus, and only when they developed good ships they were able to cross the sea and create colonies.

I do not know if Alexander went to the Olympics as prince or king, but the other people here made a very good case that he was just prince. I do not dispute that. As for the Argos, there were lots of them. It is not unusual at all...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Again for clarifications I would like to repeat:

1) One thing is the Macedonian Royal House (Temenids/Heraclids) one other thing was the Macedonian population. Both of them were of North Western Greek (NWG) stock. The Royal house Argive Doric and the Dorians were a descending NWG tribe and the second simply another NWG tribe.
2) So when I have to correlate the similarities of Macedonians and Dorians I don't say that the one derives from the other ,but I prefer to explain their similarities by their COMMON NORTHWESTERN GREEK ANCESTRY. When Herodotus in 1.56 says that the Dorics were Descending Makednoi ...I translate it as the Dorians came to southern Greece from Makednia (Boio mountain region) were they cohabited with the Makednoi (Makedonians that named the region Makednia before moving to Pieria). And I say cohabited because the dialect of the Pella Curse table (Katadesmos) is akine NOT equal to the doric one and that for me reflects the common NWG ancestry of Macedonians , Dorians , Molossians ,Thesprotians , Thessalians , Aetolians , Acarnanians , Locrians ..etc . Each one derives from a common NWG stock , but evolved in different conditions.

This is correct. The "Argos Orestikon" theory simply extends to the prehistory of this situation: The Macedonians descended from Illyria, moved to Macedonia, and some of them moved even more to the south and became the Dorians/Hellenes e.t.c.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I just checked the Daskalakis site, and the story is almost credible. Almost because, one would have to be mad to cross all the way from Argos to Illyria and then turn back to Macedonia!!! Obviously, the Argos-Illyria part of the trip is a fake, intended to prove the "Temenid origins". The rest of the story though, is 100% correct, and it is only missing to mention that the Macedonians, during their trip from Illyria to Argos, they passed from Argos Orestikon for a while...

...

"According to his version of the story, three brothers descended from the Heracleid Temenos, who founded the Heracleid dynasty of Argos, namely Gauanes, Aeropus and Perdiccas, left Argos and went to Illyria, whence they reached Upper Macedonia and were employed as shepherds by the king of the small city of Lebaea. This monarch, warned by divine portents of the future glory destined for the youngest brother Perdiccas - the bread baked for him by the queen swelled to double its size - sent them away, giving them in mockery the sun which came through the chimney hole as their wages. Young Perdiccas circumscribed the space occupied by the sun with a knife and with symbolic gestures put it three times in his pockets, clearly meaning that he was taking possession of the region. The king, realizing rather late what the youth had implied, sent horsemen after the fugitives to slay them. But the three brothers succeeded in crossing a river, which immediately after miraculously flooded, so that it became impassable to the horsemen. In this fashion the Temenids of Argos were saved and settled near the so-called "Gardens of Midas" beside Mount Bermion, where Perdiccas, the youngest, became founder of the Macedonian kingdom's dynasty, with Aegae for its capital "
...

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Petros Houhoulis

Mine is not a hypothesis at all. Herodotus mentions it, just as he mentions the Temenid origin. The Temenid origin can be explained as propaganda, the Argos Orestikon cannot be explained as propaganda, as as for Argos Orestikon not being part of Macedonia, was Argos of the Peloponesse part of Macedonia either? Get your facts straight...

Petro can you please give the exact piece were Herodotus (or any other ancient writer) mentions Argos Orestikon as the origin of the Macedonian Royal House, just to make sure that I haven't missed it .
About the other question of yours ... of course the Peloponnesian Argos was never Macedonia ..it only provided the Macedonian Royal house in the "Temenid case". About Argos Oresticon not being part of Macedonia we only said that it was inhabited by NWG Orestes , a Molossian tribe in Hekataeus' times and later politicaly incorporated in the Macedonian Kingdom by Philip. Even later the Orestes were the first to ally with the Romans against the Macedonian Kings and got their "liberty" as "το κοινό των ελεύθερων Ορεστών". And those two facts for me suggest that the Orestes weren't very tight with the Macedonian Royal House.
Another thing is the fact that the Macedonians initialy were nomads in the Upper parts of Haliacmon , who yes belong to Orestis and named the Area "Maketa" , probably a variation of "Μάκεδα" (Μάκε δα = heigh land =mountainus land = just like the Orestes named it later Ορεστίς = mountain land). Argos Oresticon belonged to Orestis , but it's not in the Mountainus parts of Orestis ..it's located in the small plain named "Argestaeus plain" near the Mountains of Orestis. And strangely even north, we have a Pelagonian (another NWG tribe) subtribe named Argestae ,dwelling with the Neapolitans in Eastern Pelagonia) . So the names Μάκεδα and Ορεστίς by definition (at least initialy ,and I say initialy because many times a name of a whole territory takes it's name by the initial location of the tribe that inhabites all the territory later) can't be refering to Argestaeus Plain were Argos Oresticon is ,but must be refering to the mountainus zone of later Orestis.

Again as I said ..none of us saw the Temenids migrating from Peloponnesian Argos to Macedonia , we're only based on was the Ancient scholars told us.But I repeat I never heard an ancient scholar (testimony) who attacked the "Temenid thesis" and sostained the "Argos Oresticon thesis". If you have one I would be glad to see it .If as you say that the Royal House used this propaganda to be recognized ..why make up a story and not using the already recognized Hesiod's katalog of women which already recognized the Macedonians as Greeks ..as descendants of Deucalion and brothers of the Magnets ...it would fit them and they wouldn't have to make up a story.

[Andrew]

And if the Peloponnesian descent of the Macedonian Royal House sounds "strange" here are some more cases:
1) The Lynkestes Royal hoyse claimed Bakkhiad (doric,Korinthean) descent and we know that the Bakhhiads were exciled from Korinthos to Korkyra and from there to the Korinthean Colony Epidamnus (founded in 650 BC). From Epidamnus crossing south Illyria , the first Greek tribes you find are the Lynkestes and the Dexares.So again we have another trip Peloponnesus->Illyria-> Macedonia
2) Spartan king Cleomenes was proud being an Achean who governed Doric Spartans.
Herodotus (V,72):

but the priestess stood up from her seat before he had passed through the door, and said, "Lacedemonian stranger, go back and enter not into the temple, for it is not lawful for Dorians to pass in hither." He [Kleomenes] said: "Woman, I am not a Dorian, but an Achaian."

3) In Iliad , Mycenean , Atrid Menelaus became king of Sparta after marrying Helen , the daughter of the indigenus spartan King Tyndareus ,even if Tyndareus had living sons (the Dioscurids).
4) Again in the Iliad Diomedes is the king of the Peloponesian Argos , but he's roots are from the Aetolic city Kalydon
5) An oldest myth refers that the Theban of Phoenician roots Cadmus and his wife Armonia ended being kings in the Encheleans of the lake Lichnidos/Ohrid
6) The Molossian royal family claimed "Aeolian descent" from Neoptolemus , son of Achilles and that's why called them selves "Aeakids" from Achilles grandfather Aeacus.Do be more exact the name Aeakus means literaly "from Aias" (Aias being a variation of the name Aous , thats why Parauaeans were the tribe παρά τον Αώο/Αία )and Achilles in the Iliad prays to the Dodonean Zeus.We also have two other Achean heroes named Aias (the Telamonian of salamis and the "small" one from Locrid). In Iliad's rapsody II in the Catalog of Ships Homer mentions the Aeolophon Perrhebians that dwelt Titarisus (southwest of Olympus) descending from Dodona. All this suggests to me that the Aeolians were originaly of Epeirotan descent and Neoptolemus only returned "home". The same thing can be said about the dorian Temenids (Makednia (Dorians cohabiting with the Makednoi(Herodotus 1.56)) -> Peloponnesus (Argos)-> Macedonia (Levaea in west Pieria were they found the Macedonian nomad population descending from Maketa/makeda (later named Orestis by the Orestes). I call these routs "παλινδρομήσεις" (back and forth).
7) Alcmeonids and Peisistratids were powerful families that controlled the Attic Ionians descending from the Peloponnesian Ionians (Pylos , "Nestorids")
And we know that there were Ionians in the Peloponnesus that were driven away by the Dorians (Herodotus 1.145 , Homer in Odyssey makes a single mention to the Ionian Peloponnese by saying Ἴασον Ἄργος).
8) Gelon became ruler of Syracusa , but was of Gelan (near city Gela) descend.
9) Agathokles was of Regian (Khalcidean colony Region (Reggio di Calabria) descent (his father was exiled from there) but was declared "pluripotential general of the Syracusian State" by the Doric/Korinthean Syracusians themselves.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Petro can you please give the exact piece were Herodotus (or any other ancient writer) mentions Argos Orestikon as the origin of the Macedonian Royal House, just to make sure that I haven't missed it .
About the other question of yours ... of course the Peloponnesian Argos was never Macedonia ..it only provided the Macedonian Royal house in the "Temenid case". About Argos Oresticon not being part of Macedonia we only said that it was inhabited by NWG Orestes , a Molossian tribe in Hekataeus' times and later politicaly incorporated in the Macedonian Kingdom by Philip. Even later the Orestes were the first to ally with the Romans against the Macedonian Kings and got their "liberty" as "το κοινό των ελεύθερων Ορεστών". And those two facts for me suggest that the Orestes weren't very tight with the Macedonian Royal House.
Another thing is the fact that the Macedonians initialy were nomads in the Upper parts of Haliacmon , who yes belong to Orestis and named the Area "Maketa" , probably a variation of "Μάκεδα" (Μάκε δα = heigh land =mountainus land = just like the Orestes named it later Ορεστίς = mountain land). Argos Oresticon belonged to Orestis , but it's not in the Mountainus parts of Orestis ..it's located in the small plain named "Argestaeus plain" near the Mountains of Orestis. And strangely even north, we have a Pelagonian (another NWG tribe) subtribe named Argestae ,dwelling with the Neapolitans in Eastern Pelagonia) . So the names Μάκεδα and Ορεστίς by definition (at least initialy ,and I say initialy because many times a name of a whole territory takes it's name by the initial location of the tribe that inhabites all the territory later) can't be refering to Argestaeus Plain were Argos Oresticon is ,but must be refering to the mountainus zone of later Orestis.

Again as I said ..none of us saw the Temenids migrating from Peloponnesian Argos to Macedonia , we're only based on was the Ancient scholars told us.But I repeat I never heard an ancient scholar (testimony) who attacked the "Temenid thesis" and sostained the "Argos Oresticon thesis". If you have one I would be glad to see it .If as you say that the Royal House used this propaganda to be recognized ..why make up a story and not using the already recognized Hesiod's katalog of women which already recognized the Macedonians as Greeks ..as descendants of Deucalion and brothers of the Magnets ...it would fit them and they wouldn't have to make up a story.

I cannot remember anything right now and, honestly, the years when I had a long discussion against Illinden in various forums about Ancient Macedonian history are over, long ago.

What makes you think that Alexander I knew of Hesiod and his works, in order for him to quote them in front of Hellanodikai? The whole story started when some of the Hellanodikai disputed Alexanders' Greek origins, in Olympia. At later times the Ancient scholars found that the Macedonians had a Greek connection, and they accepted the whole package, alas, without proof...

[Cadmus]

This is all most interesting guys!

Petros i support your views as possible but proof needs to be backed up!

Andrew you are also right Cadmus and Harmonia and the Encheleans were Hellenic from the start..

Lyncesteans were royal linked with the Bacchiadae from Corinth now both Lyncesteans and Encheleans had good trading relations with places like Corinth and the Ionic ports.

Even so the Trebenishte artefacts supposedly being from Peresadyes/Enchelian stock also shoe clear Corinthian artefacts as in trading relations must had been good at those times atleast 7/6th c.B.C.

But both Encheleans and Lyncestians were not traditional Macedonians and were not incorporated in the Macedon kingdom except for the Lyncestians but not in the initial kingdom that was..

Now those areas were part Illyrian/Hellenic and it was on a border crosspoint that remained difficult to maintain pure Hellenic/Illyrian..

That's why i support Petros his vieuw, but more research needs to be done..

I wonder what BBB's his point of view is on this one..

BBB where are you mate?