History of the ancient Macedonian kingdom (split thread)

[Andrew]

Thank you very much Akritas !!!

[Petros Houhoulis]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Petros I wrote only what I found in Hammond ...
I know that Herodotus in 1.56 names the Dorians as "descending Macedonians". I have put the Temenid because that is what Herodotus , Thukydides and other historians have presented. Don't forget that when Alexander has participated at the Olympics and the Ellanodikes have judged him as an "Argive" ..of course there were other Argives from Argos in Olympia to say if Perdikkas I was or not Argive. And if you don't want myths and traditions I say that the Macedonians were a North Western Greek tribe being governed by a Doric family from Argos. The propaganda as you say it was "Caranus" after Archealus. One thing is the population one thing is the Royal family. The population , the Real Macedonians came from Orestis (Maketa) yes to the Mountain Boion as Makednoi and finaly to the Pierian Mountains (Macedonian Mountain ) and from there started their expansion AFTER the Temenids took control ..probably by marrying the daughter of the pre-Temenid Royal family which probably belonged to the main Macedonian subtribe , the Argeads.An analog thing hapens in Homer were the Atrid Menelaus becames king of Sparta AFTER marrying king Tyndarus' daughter Helen even if , Tindareus has living sons (the Dioscurids)The Macedonians initialy inhabited only in the "Old Kingdom" , which Herodotus says arrived were Aliacmon unites with Ludias , refering to the old Haliakmon Stream that devided modern Emathia in two . Later , with Alexander I they politicaly annexed the Molossian (Epeirotan , North Western Greek) tribes (as Hekataeus nemd them in 500 BC )of the later Upper Macedonia of Thoukydides (Lynkestae , Orestae ..etc)

About the Illyrian territory you're refering , I suppose you mention the fairy tale in book 8 (8.131 if I'm correct). Were it sais that Perdikkas and his two brothers came from Argos of Peloponnesus to the Illyrian territory , in the city Lebaia (which Hammond in the Macedonian State locates in Western Pieria , after an Inscription found there , saying Alevaeos). If you ask me I thing that the Greek writters before the Macedonian Hegeony tend to name the territories North West of Olympus "Illyria" and North East of him Thrace. dont forget that we consider Orpheus as Thracian when he was located in Leibithra in Pieria , just because before the Macedonian Expansion in the coasts of Pieria there were Thracian Tribes ,who later got driven away by the Macedonians). And before the Macedonian expansion the Illyrians were located in the the Vergina region driving away the Phrygians and cohabiting with the Bottieans of Crete. So when Perdikkas I arrived , the Central Macedonian coastal Plain was "Illyrian territory" ..that's why Herodotus says that the 3 brothers went to Illyria.

And Borza can't say nothing to me ...he must deal first with Hammond , Bengtson , A.R. Burn ....and all the other modern historians that considered as real the Temenid descent.

So when I'm refering to the royal house I'm not refering to the whole of the Macedonian Tribe even if at the end both of them have North Western Greek Descent.

So Petro can you explain to me why should the "Temenid" thesis be accused when all the Ancient and the Extra-Maggiority of modern scholars accept it ??
Were are Borza's proofs that it was a "propaganda" of the royal house ??

The Temenid thesis is nonsense for one simple reason: The Temenids might have been expelled from Argos, but there was never any proof that they moved as far as Macedonia. In fact, they didn't have to go that far to find a refuge.

The reality is simple: Alexander I appears in Olympia, and wants to compete in the Olympic games. The Hellanodikai ask him who is he, and where does he come from, and he replies that he is Alexander, the king of Macedonia, with origins from Argos Orestikon. (his true origins). The Hellanodikai don't know where Argos Orestikon is, they only know of Argos in the Peloponesse, so they call the Argeads. Now, the Argeads see the man and realize that he speaks some form of Dorian like themselves, so they recognize a relationship, that they cannot explain. When he says that he is a king, they remember that they had a king too, one that was expelled long ago...

...And this is how a myth begins. In reality of course, the Macedonian king does not descend from the Peloponesse, but the Dorians - including the Argeads - originate from Macedonia...

...And this is something that is confirmed in many ways: The Dorians' own testimony, the appearance of Macedonian names in lands where the Dorians passed or lived ranging from Argos to Boeotia, the very name of the Lakedemonians being a Macedonian word, the presence of a deity Alexandra in Lakonia, the fact that three of the names of the Macedonian months coincide with the Lakonian ones, and so on...

Always remember that there is a very clear reference to Dorians moving from Macedonia towards the Peloponesse from a multitude of Ancient authors, but NOT A SINGLE ONE REFERENCE on the reverse journey, by commoners or royals alike. In fact, the Greek people were being exported by ship in colonies all around the Mediterranean, but there is no legacy of the Temenids building a settlement anywhere, and the early Macedonian territory was not close to the sea anyway...

Borza nailed this one in Hammond, don't let him nail it to you too... Hammond was a decent fella, but not an infallible one...

P.S.

I do not use the term "Argead" or "Temenid". I prefer the "Orestid" one, because Argead could be someone from either Argos, but Orestis exists as a region only in Macedonia...

[The Blood of Dorus]

Some issues here which need to be addressed.

Firstly, it is unlikely that Alexander I competed at Olympia after he became king (i.e. in 498 BC) - his likely participation was either in 504 BC or 500 BC when he would have been a young man of around 20 to 25 years of age. When Herodotus mentions Alexander at the Olympics he merely calls him "Alexander" and not the king of Macedon. He in fact mentions the whole Olympic episode after introducing Alexander as the young son of the then king Amyntas in a scene where Alexander successfully contrives to have the Persian envoys to Amyntas' court murdered at a dinner held by his father. So it is likely that Alexander attended the Olympics as a young man before becoming king.

Borza makes the mistake in stating that Alexander took part in the Olympics after the Persian Wars and the episode of his assisting the Greek forces at Plataea with information on the disposition of Mardonius' forces in 479 BC. This would make Alexander's appearance at the Olympics in 476 BC, by which time he would have been around 50 years of age and extremely unlikely to tie for first in the stade race with much younger competitors. Borza'a assumption and dating of the episode is therefore very suspect as he simply makes Alexander's participation at this later date (i.e. 476 BC) as a basis for treating his participation as a special case and "reward" for his "philhellenism" during the Persian Wars.

Secondly, linking Alexander I's origins with Argos Orestikon is extremely tenuous. As Hecataeus and Strabo make clear, Argos Orestikon at the time of the Persian Wars was a polis of the Orestae who were a Molossian tribe and not part of Macedonia. The Orestae did not become politically incorporated into the kingdom of Macedon until Phillip's time. Alexander could only have become king if he was a member of the Macedones, and in particular from the Argeadae tribe (named after the legendary second king of Macedon and not Argos or Argos Orestikon).

The Temenids are legendary descendants of Herakles and are from Argos - the legend of their gaining ascendancy as royalty in Macedonia is linked to the legend of Karanos. The Temenids become the royal branch of the Argeadae tribe. Whether the legends have any truth or not to them is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that these legends where believed by both the Macedonians and their kings and by the other Greeks as well - and certainly by Herodotus, Thucydidies and the Elean Hellandokai at Olympia.

[Andrew]

Petro yours remain simply an hypothesis with no ancient testimony to sostain it. You neglect Herodotus and Thoukydides and the Pythoness prophesy on the foundation of Aegae (Diododus Siculus) refering to Perdikkas I and Caranus (and with Caranus I all ready agree that he was a later introduction of Archealaus), you make Alexander partecipate in the Olympics at least after his 40s (that makes him a supernatural athlete) and continue to miss-translate the word Argeads ..I repeat it is a patronym non a Toponym. Stefanos Byzantios repeats that the citizens of all the cities named Argos are called αργείοι.And blood of dorus is right , the Orestes were the last to be incorporated in the macedonian kingdom , during Philips time . They were the ones that originaly drove away the Macedonians from "Maketa" and named their teritory Orestis.
Since we weren't there to see the Temenids migrating or not at least we must consider (always under critical spirit) the ancient testimonies. Ours remain an accademic dialog ...Antiquity believed the Temenid descend.

The hellanodike knew many Argos to put Alexander from ...Argos in Aetolia , homeric Thessaly was Argos Pelasgicon and many others . I don't think that Peloponnesian Argos was a random pick ...

[akritas]

Borza following his teacher thesis.....Badian.
In antiquity there were two basic traditions about the Greek origins of the Macedonian monarchy...
One was introduced in the early 5th century and can be read in Herodotus and Thucydides. The other is late 5th and 4th century, and can be attributed to Euripides and those writers who embellished his works in later times. Apostolos Dascalakis gas gave a very good analysis for this subject and you can read it here.
As about Borza thesis is known that he by-pass historical thinks and always claiming the known 'based-on-no-evidence' speculations. Hammond on his books gives excellent analysis to both traditions.

For instance, Borza (page 82, Shadows of Olympus) wrote
"We are further confounded by the geographical discrepancy between the Mt. Vermion association of Perdiccas [the first Temenid king] and the possibility that the Makedones settled first in coastal Pieria".

Borza then made his own 'suggestion ... based on no ancient evidence' that "the westward [? a mistake for northward] movement of the Pierian Makedones eventually reached the piedmont of Mt. Vermion near Veria or Mieza".

Hammond thesis (and responce) is that the ancient evidence, which Borza mentioned on page 63, is far preferable to his or anyone else's 'based on no-evidence speculations. The evidence is that the Thracian Pieres held 'coastal Pieria', the early Macedones were 'around Pieria and Olympus', and the association of Perdiccas and his brothers with the land below Mt. Bermion was as fugitives and later as conquerors in their advance from Pieria into Bottiaea.In the phrases 'another land of Macedonia' and 'the rest of Macedonia' Herodotus had in mind not the pre-Temenid kingdom but the Macedonia of his own day.

[Truth Bearer]

Hold on lads Petros you don't properly explain the issue.Didn't they colonise Halkidiki,Thrace and Thasos from the southern Greeks who went upwards??And how about the Black Sea area wasn't that colonized also by sth Greeks??

[Truth Bearer]

Always remember that there is a very clear reference to Dorians moving from Macedonia towards the Peloponesse from a multitude of Ancient authors, but NOT A SINGLE ONE REFERENCE on the reverse journey, by commoners or royals alike. In fact, the Greek people were being exported by ship in colonies all around the Mediterranean, but there is no legacy of the Temenids building a settlement anywhere, and the early Macedonian territory was not close to the sea anyway...

I do not agree with you Petros.As I said before Makedonia,Thrace and the Black Sea how were they colonized??Also in the Olympic Games Alexander I went as King not a prince.The question also bears that why would there be 2 Argos??

[admin]

he wont be back i am sure... lol

[Andrew]

Again for clarifications I would like to repeat:

1) One thing is the Macedonian Royal House (Temenids/Heraclids) one other thing was the Macedonian population. Both of them were of North Western Greek (NWG) stock. The Royal house Argive Doric and the Dorians were a descending NWG tribe and the second simply another NWG tribe.
2) So when I have to correlate the similarities of Macedonians and Dorians I don't say that the one derives from the other ,but I prefer to explain their similarities by their COMMON NORTHWESTERN GREEK ANCESTRY. When Herodotus in 1.56 says that the Dorics were Descending Makednoi ...I translate it as the Dorians came to southern Greece from Makednia (Boio mountain region) were they cohabited with the Makednoi (Makedonians that named the region Makednia before moving to Pieria). And I say cohabited because the dialect of the Pella Curse table (Katadesmos) is akine NOT equal to the doric one and that for me reflects the common NWG ancestry of Macedonians , Dorians , Molossians ,Thesprotians , Thessalians , Aetolians , Acarnanians , Locrians ..etc . Each one derives from a common NWG stock , but evolved in different conditions.

[The Blood of Dorus]

Originally Posted by Andrew

and that for me reflects the common NWG ancestry of Macedonians , Dorians , Molossians ,Thesprotians , Thessalians , Aetolians , Acarnanians , Locrians ..etc . Each one derives from a common NWG stock , but evolved in different conditions.

I agree. This certainly appears to be the case - even Borza has suggested this link.