The Origin of Ancient Macedonians and OTHER Greeks

[Ptolemy]

Originally Posted by ZZm

Here is a useful link for you all nationalist that think are better than the rest of the world.(by the way the author of the book is greek)

So according to your unique cosmotheory, a book is considered a valid source if:

(i) the author is Greek
(ii) book's contents fits your propagandistic agenda.

Sorry to break the news to you to you but if you werent a parrot, parroting whatever crap you were fed with, you would probably have done your homework and knew by now, a pathologist's account about history has the same validity as if my dentist decided to publish a book about history.

If you plan to stay further here, try not to provide again childish arguments. That is if you have the certain ability to distinguish between a sensible and a childish argument.

[yannis-3]

Originally Posted by ZZm

If the language of the macedonians is just a dialect of the ancient greek, then why when Alexander The Great was giving orders on the battlefield the ally greek generals needed a translator so they could act on them?(this is from Plutarh)

This is from a Skοpian ultra propagandistic site

The Greek archeologist Manolis Andronikos also claims that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks.� In his " Vergina: The Royal Tombs", he wrote :
"In the most unambivalent way this evidence confirms the opinion of those historians who maintain that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe, like all the others who lived on Greek territory, and shows that the theory that they were of Illyrian or Thracian descent and were hellenized by Philip and Alexander rests on no objective criteria." (Manolis Andronikos, Vergina: The Royal Tombs, p.83-85)
And here is Professor Eugene Borza�s, answer to Andronikos:
"This argument is true enough only as far as it goes. It neglects that the hellenization of the Macedonians might have occurred earlier then the age of Philip and Alexander, and can not therefore serve as a means of proving the Macedonians were a Greek tribe." (Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus, p.91-92)

Even the Borza admit that Macedonians were GREEKS in the period of Philip and Alexander and weren’t Hellenized by Philip and Alexander.
He's only making a guess that might have Hellenized earlier then the age of Philip and Alexander.
That’s mean that Philip’s Macedonians were Greeks or because belong to a Greek tribe or because their ancestors were GREKOMANS as Borza guess.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by yannis-3

This is from a Skοpian ultra propagandistic site



Even the Borza admit that Macedonians were GREEKS in the period of Philip and Alexander and weren’t Hellenized by Philip and Alexander.
He's only making a guess that might have Hellenized earlier then the age of Philip and Alexander.
That’s mean that Philip’s Macedonians were Greeks or because belong to a Greek tribe or because their ancestors were GREKOMANS as Borza guess.

As far as I'm concerned , Hammond in Volume I of A History of Macedonia says that the fact that in Vergina we have three cemeteries
1) oldest , Phrygian (1050-900 BC)
2) middle , Illyrian (900-700 BC)
3) later , Macedonian (after 700 BC)

underlines the fact the latests (Macedonians) made a new Cemetery because they didn't felt related to the populations of the previus cemeteries . Even if you are a Hellenized barbarian population you continue considering your non hellenized ancestors ..ancestors. Isn't it wright ???This is not the case in Vergina. Only from Hellenistic times and by lack of space we have a certain overlap among cemeteries !!!!!
So I'm asking Borza ...If they didn't felt Phrygians , didn't Felt Illyrians , having removed Thracian "Pierians" in Pieris in Pangaeum and destroyed the Paeonian city Amydon during their expansion...that means NO Phrygians , NO Illyrians , NO Thracians , NO Paeonians ...So what were they if not Greeks?
ALIENS from outer space ??????

[Flipper]

ZZm i wanna ask you something...

How come that in places like Egypt and some countries of Asia, there're big communities of Greek speaking people and not of your language? Have you ever thought about that?

While thinking mind reading Plutarch "Life of Alexander" here: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...xander*/4.html

When a small coffer was brought to him, which those in charge of the baggage and wealth of Dareius thought the most precious thing there, he asked his friends what valuable object they thought would most fittingly be deposited in it. 2 And when many answered and there were many opinions, Alexander himself said he was going to deposit the Iliad there for safe keeping.45 This is attested by many trustworthy authorities. 3 And if what the Alexandrians tell us on the authority of Heracleides is true, then it would seem that Homer was no idle or unprofitable companion for him in his expedition. 4 They say, namely, that after his conquest of Egypt he wished to found a large and populous Greek city which should bear his name, and by the advice of his architects was on the point of measuring off and enclosing a certain site for it.

Also before loosing time by selective quoting Plutarch, I will remind you that he named his collection of Books "Parallel lives of Greeks and Romans".

[Andrew]

**CORRECTION** Where it says Macedonian Migration EARLY BRONGE AGE it is EARLY IRON - LATE BRONGE AGE ...I apologize for this error

[Andrew]

Does somebody know if there are sites with geophysical maps of the Balkans/Greece virgin ?????..that is without any writing upon them ..
..so that I can work on them ...I'm tired deleting wrong borders and names !!!
---THANKS---

[Andrew]

Here I put the most note theory about the rout of the Indo European invaders of south Balkans . That theory is the "Kurgan hypothesis" of the Lithuanian Marija Gimbutas (1974). We can divide them in 2 groups:
1) Eastern- Satem Speakers (ESS)
2) Western-Centum Speakers (WCS)


[url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=514&i=iemigrationtk6.jpg]


There was a common proto-IE bulk (originaly Satem) that passed the mouth of the Danube river around 2500-3000 BC and about the territory Cerna Voda (a little south from the Danubian mouth) the Centum speakers separated themselves and started following the Danube westwards. The left Satem IE continued directly southwards as proto-Thracians and arrived in southern Thrace around 2500 BC. From the partial cultural and anthropological hybridation of the proto-Thracians and the "Aegean" pre-IEans originated the Thracians tribes in Thrace , the Trojans and the Mysians in Asia Minor (Troy was already prosperus in 1800 BC)and then from them , around 1400 BC , we have the Paeonians in Axios river , the Thracian "Pieres" in Pieria and probably the thracian Dardanians in Dardania (since the name Dardania is related to the mythological founder of Troy Dardanus , the Dardanian allies of Troy lead by Aeneas and the name of the Troy Sea straits as "Dardanelia").

Returning to the separating Centum Speakers (WCS) , following the Danube they reached the region of todays Belgrade (Vinca cultures)about 2200 BC. From then the proto-Greeks turned southwards , but didn't pass from the strait between Sar Planina and Crna Gora that leads to modern day FYROM , probably because it was well difended by the "continental" Pelasgians that dwelt the territory.So the proto-Greeks from todays Kossovo turn westwards and moved to today Albania . Descending from there they first settled in south-central Albania and the Tertalimnion-Pelagonia region about 2000 BC.
After 2000 BC they start migrating more south and reached central and south Greece until 1800 BC. The rest is said on my main test (post #1).

Interestingly there were othr two theories about the origin of the proto-IEans.
1) The famous archaelogist Colin Renfrew once believed the "Anatolian hypothesis" , that is deep Anatolia as origin of the proto-IEans.
2) In 1984 the Russian D'Iakonov proposed the Balkans as the original home-place of the proto-IE as descendants of the "Pelasgians" who brought the agricultural revolution in the Balkans from West Asia around 8000 BC. It is interesting note that Colin Renfrew lately changed his theory and now he agrees with D'Iakonov in the "Balkanian hypothesis" . The whole article of the "Balkanian" thesis is here:
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/indoeuropean/

And a little scheme of the spread of the IE languages in the "Balkanian hypothesis" is here:


[url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=367&i=balkanprotoiejg8.jpg][IMG]http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/1283/balkanprotoiejg8.5d2d43158c

[Andrew]

For a more precise model of the Indo European migration model and the "coming of the Greeks in Greece" watch the thread:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...igrations.html

[Andrew]

[url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=161&i=nigelguywilsonxa6.png][IMG]http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/153/nigelguywilsonxa6.5d338915f7

Let's see the most important stuff:

1) "The latest archaeological findings have confirmed that Macedonia took it's name from a tribe of tall , Greek-speaking people , the Makednoi ..."

2) "The Macedonian kingdom streched more or less as far north as the present northern border of Greece."

3) "The "vulgar" Macedonians were not unanimously accepted by "refined" southern Greeks , especialy the Atheneans , as brethren ; occasionaly they were classified as "barbarians"."

4) "Philip II of Macedon was anxius to pacify and unify Greeks at any cost."

Nigel Guy wilson , Encyclopedia of Ancient Greece (2006)

[Andrew]

Some interesting observations from NGL Hammond's "The Macedonian State":

[page 68 of the Greek edition]

1) Macedonians and the aelophon Magnets were considered "brethren" by Hesiod and had in common the cult of "Zeus Akraeus" and the festivity of the "Heteridea".
2) Macedonians,Magnets and the northwestern speakers Aenians had in common a dance that was simulating "a stock breed theft". The Macedonians named it "karpea" and the other two named it "karpaea".
3) Macedonians and the Malians were both gathering "in arms" and gave political wrights only to the ones that were able for combat.