Regions of Ancient Macedonia

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Cadmus

I think that Encheleans/Caloecini/Penestae and Epirotes like Dessaretes and Pathinians were all Pelasgic..that is later on mixed with Illyrian and Proto-Greek..but i might be wrong..but i do beleiev that the most original inhabitants of the areas aforementioned were the original neolithic inhabitants that evolved..

That proto-Greeks and proto-Illyrians found "pelasgic" precursors to mix with that is almost certain !

[quote=Cadmus]Andrew can you mention me the part were i guess Hammond mentions the divert of the proto Greeks from Kosova to Albania..and about the strongholds in Fyrom and Epirus?[quote]

It was somewhere in volume I of his "History of Macedonia" , prehistory of Macedonia , if I remember well he said that the archaeological change-wave that he related with the "coming of the proto-Greeks" didn't leave any proof over Paeonia. Then in the same point we considers the proto-Ionians settling over the Albanian coast , naming the Sea Ionian and the Gulf of Epidamnos Ionian Gulf (of cource before the foundation of Epidamnos by the Korinthians).
So if I remember well Hammond only says that there is no evidence of the pass of the greeks from Vardar Valley. This "wave" that represents till now the proto-Greek migration is: Cerna Voda III (Romania) -> Bubanj Hum III (South Serbia) -> Maliq III (Albania) + Armenokhori (Pelagonia).

Originally Posted by Cadmus

PS what did you mean with Stybera etc..were Doric descent? like all Pelagonians?

If you have Hammond with you or you have found it in the Web (because I've left it back in Greece), he talks about the "old doric" city style of Alalkomenae & Stybbera , like the Spartan model. Now that the Pelagonians were North Western Greeks that is something that most scholars believe. Anyway the "Old Doric" style practicaly also means "proto-Greek" style since the North Western Greeks ("Dorics") were the most similar to the original proto-Greeks in language and culture. Here is a piece from Herodotus were "summarizes" pretty well all that:

[V,88] In truth however this fashion of dress is not Ionian originally but Carian, for the old Hellenic fashion of dress for women was universally the same as that which we now call Dorian.

Lately I found out many scholars believing that Aeolic and Doric were one branch (that I name proto-"continental" Greek) before 1200 BC , and from that undifferenciated proto-"continental" Greek i think that stemmed the Macedonian and Boetian dialects , that's why they bothare rich in both "Dorisms" and "Aeolisms".

Anyway all that means that what we call "Old doric style" simply means the old style of the continental greeks = Greeks that weren't influenced so much by the pre-Greek Aegeans.

[Cadmus]

Hi All!

I have a new theory not mine but an interesting one..

First this.

The village of gorenci near Trebenishte in Fyrom is a very important ancient place.
Close to the village the graves and golden masks of Trebenishte were found and you have archaeological sites on the hill (Gabavski rid) above the village of Gorenci and Trebenishte and its hill all part of the bigger hills called Gabavski rid.

That atleast there was an ancient city there thats clear.
The name however is still uncertain but i have encountered a new theory.

In 200 b.c. the roman consul Apustius sacked 3 forts of Philip V.All are in Dessaretes territory!

1 Gerunium
2 Corragium
3 Orgessus

Now the first town Gerunium is by some authors placed abobe Berat Albania(ancient Antipatrea/Dessarete town also) near the slopes of Mt Tomor.
Near Codrion/Codrium.

Now a new theory which i gathered from an old manuscript from 1953 Ziva Antika a author places Gerunium right at Gorenci village the village being a slavic version of Gerunium!

Still no hard evidence but i see a possibility..
This means that the other towns were in the lake Lychnitis area's vicinity!
We already know of the 4 towns being on or right on the lake..
Sation/Cerax/Boii/Enchelenae all towns are not found as of yet and its ruins are not located only the ruins mentioned here on Gabavski rid..

Allthough there are ruins on the Kalaja=hill in Pogradec
that some call Enchelenae..but ancient Struga was called Enchalon so there is very poor info..

And more needs to be researched..

Other possibilty is that the rruins of Gabavski rid are the former Enchelean capitol but finds date from later then the Enchelean height of influence from 8-6th c.B.C.!

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Cadmus

places Gerunium right at Gorenci village the village being a slavic version of Gerunium!

Good one Cadmus they sound very familiar Gorenci and Gerunium !!!

As I said from 1 st August that I'll be back in Greece where I have Hammond ...I'll give you a hand in the Lake region !!!

[Cadmus]

Maybe you should visit the area once...its very Indiana Jones like

[Cadmus]

Hi Andrew!

If you look up the Hammond HoM , would you please try to find any section where he mentions the Paravaei and the region of Phoebatis ...where they lived it is on the Aous river modern Viosa (Albania) and if he mentions anything about Cordiax/Cordium or Codras the modern name...what does Hammond think of its locations!

Allright if its not to much...

All the best..

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Cadmus

Hi Andrew!

If you look up the Hammond HoM , would you please try to find any section where he mentions the Paravaei and the region of Phoebatis ...where they lived it is on the Aous river modern Viosa (Albania) and if he mentions anything about Cordiax/Cordium or Codras the modern name...what does Hammond think of its locations!

Allright if its not to much...

All the best..

Of course I'll take a look !!!

For what I know so far Paravaei (Παραυαίοι) the name means literarly "those by the Aous river" , since Aias (AJAX for you Dutchmen ) is a variant of Aous river so Para ton Aia >> Paravaei !!

The first variant of the river was ΑίFας con digamma "F" pronounced "Aevas"

as this inscription from Olympia , Elis shows :


[url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=518&i=elisolympiaf450bcxd0.png][IMG]http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8765/elisolympiaf450bcxd0


For more info ..wait until I get Hammond in my hands mate !!!

[BigBlackBeast]

Originally Posted by Cadmus

Hi Andrew!

If you look up the Hammond HoM , would you please try to find any section where he mentions the Paravaei and the region of Phoebatis ...where they lived it is on the Aous river modern Viosa (Albania) and if he mentions anything about Cordiax/Cordium or Codras the modern name...what does Hammond think of its locations!

Allright if its not to much...

All the best..

Hi Cadmus,

Long time no speak! … In truth I have been lurking in the shadows here for some time now without actually contributing. I feel a little guilty especially in view of the Hammond scans that I still owe you. I have actually done some OCR scans (text as opposed to images from pages) but they need extensive work to be readable – I simply haven’t the time to complete it. At any rate, here are some image scans of pages from Hammond’s first volume relating to Dassaretis. I know it will probably just whet your appetite for more – but you will have to be content with this for now (unless Andrew comes through for you). The closest reference I could find in the index of his three volumes to the names you asked about, was to a ‘Codrion’ which Hammond places at Mirake in Albania about 20 km north of Mt Tomor/Amyron (see Map below). It’s seems to be in the right area; the area of greatest interest to Cadmus!























In a few days, I will disappear for over two months as I will be visiting the land of my birth which I haven’t seen for many, many years …

So Cheers and keep your focus ...

[BigBlackBeast]

Originally Posted by Andrew

The first variant of the river was ΑίFας con digamma "F" pronounced "Aevas"

as this inscription from Olympia , Elis shows :

Hi Andrew,

I always had the impression that the digamma (so called because of its appearance suggesting one gamma on top of another) was pronounced like a 'W'. Although, on the basis of how these sounds are handled by some European languages (e.g. German), it is easy to see how a 'W' sound can glide into a 'V' sound.

Ciao

[Andrew]

Hi BBB ,

Thanks for the Hammond part You rocked !!!

About the digamma ...Yes I was refering to the /w/ sound when I wrote "V".
I wrote "V" , because "w" changes from word to word (check german "wasser" and english "water" >>> "βάσερ" vs. "γουότερ").

In this case I believe ΑίFας was "Ae/w/as" , with /w/="v" here and that's why
Paravei =Para Aevas

[Cadmus]

Yiiiiiihoooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!:clapping :

BBB is Back!

Thanks for the great info, it is from Hammond's Epirus right?

I will have to digest the new info, but its nice to see the confirmation that all towns Boioi,Sation, Cerax and Enchelenaea are placed by Hammond also on the lake!

Now if i take a careful look at the surrounding areas i see no other option then placing most of the towns on the fertile plain near Struga/Gorenci and above..

Remember that there are big ruins (Cyclopean)of a ancient settlement above the village of Oktisi thats on the north eastern side of lake Lychnitis...on the other side you have the Gabavski rid ancient Cyclopean walls of a great settlement possibly that of the rulers of the Trebenisthe culture they call it Trebenisthe (the name of a village nearby) but actually the necropolis is right in front of Gorenci village!

So we have the possibility that the city of Harpya is one of them..not ruling out Enchelenaea or Sation Cerax and Boioi!

On the other side of the lake the southern part there is a ancient settlement as i have mentioned before on the hill above Pogradeci Albania..if the neat assumption of hammond is right and indeed the mentioning of all towns and tribes is in a north to south description we could place Cerax near Struga(but some call it Enchalon) i could imagine the Eels were cought on the river instead of in the lake which is quite deep and techniques then i suppose were not for cathing eels on like 300m depth that is where the eels stay before departing to the Adriatic to spawn in the Atlantic ocean every cycle..

So Enchalon near Struga is an option...this doesnt mean that Cerax could not be there at all but i would place it in beween Struga and Lychnidos! some ancient settlement is found there to (village sized)..

About Sation being near Elshani Hammond calls it Eltzani he does gets more place names wrong i found out..that could be possible...but near Elshani actually near Gradisthe its on the lake 3/4 from Ohrid to Pogradeci on its eastern shore ofcourse there was an ancient village on top of the lake build on poles ..Andrew remeber the mysterious lake dwellers also mentiond by Herodotus who placed them as Paonians!

But Elshani is a to naarow defile on the lake that is for housing , agriculture no arible land there ..and no ruins have been found there...only a roman fortress that was not near Elshani but on the Gradisthe site too!

Now the Boioi could then had lived near Pogradeci were as i have said ruis were found...but the way i see it also the Caloecini aswell as Pissanti could have lived on the confiines of the lake so the town of the Caloecini Bantia could had been on Pogradec hill to ! now after that in a southwestern approach we have the Kortche plain ...but we have some towns left Orgyssus and Gerunium! latter hammond doesnt mentions but t was Desarete for sure! same as Codrion/Antipatria ..but is see them indeed in the Uzumi valley or near Berat..but an ancient settlement is mentioned by Leake as Hammond describes near Tomorice on the slopes of Mt.Tomor ...so many questions remain..but i do acknowledge that all great towns were mostly situated near the Lychnis plain!

About Starski Dol and Raleice they are on the Via Egnatia road! near Resen i think!..
BBB remember we searched for Brucida? Hammond thought it could be near Zavoj but i think it is near Svinista also Hammonds second option on top of a mountain on the road Ohrid -Resen very close to Pylon and Resen itself.

The Beve town by some is also placed on the VE but as the text mentions its on the Beve river in Albania now and that river empties in the lake near Sv.Naum!(but it goes underground before that and joins water that emerges from the limestone plateau between Prespa and Ohrid lake.

Thats all for now..ihave to digest more but im going back ther very soon so ill look things up..

But the whole are of Dessaretia , Eordea and Lyncus and Kastoria civilisation are huge and very nearby! i think i t was the ancient heartland of northern Epirus and Macedonia area and Illyrian also!